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Vargouille
11-20-2013, 01:22 PM
We’re aware of several topics of discussion relating to Commendations of Valor. As players get more time with Update 20, we’ll be keeping an eye on how Commendations of Valor are working out and will consider possible changes. We have identified two issues that we feel we can address sooner rather than later:

1. Bind-to-Character: Earning Hearts of Wood via multiple Characters
Commendations of Valor are an Epic Ingredient that are Bind-to-Character, because we plan to use them for lots of different reward types. However, this puts extra strain on players who are earning Hearts of wood by playing many different characters, or who may have one character earning Commendations in lower levels while another character is already at the level cap. We’d like to address this to give additional options to these players while still allowing us flexibility for reward items we offer through Commendations in the future.

2. Commendations of Valor and Bag Space
The number of Commendations of Valor received scales heavily across different character levels, which means it’s challenging to simply reduce the amounts of Commendations bestowed, or the costs for Hearts of Wood, without consequence for characters of different level. However, this was not intended to put stress on bag space, so we’d like to address that too.


Introducing: Heart Seeds
We’re adding a new, entirely optional ingredient relating to Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood called “Heart Seeds”. This new ingredient adds some complications, but we felt those complications were worth it in order to address the above issues.

Heart Seeds:
Stacks of these precious seeds can be combined to form Iconic or Epic Hearts of Wood.
Purchasable with Commendations of Valor, these seeds are Bound to Account (unlike Commendations of Valor), allowing you to get hearts of wood by pooling resources from multiple characters.
Bound to Account items are tradable to your other characters through the Shared Bank.


https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/HeartSeeds.jpg

Notes:
You can obtain 1 Heart Seed by turning 100 Commendations of Valor.
You can obtain either one Iconic True Heart of Wood or one Epic Heart of Wood by turning in 42 Heart Seeds.
You can still obtain either of those Hearts of Wood by turning in 4200 Commendations of Valor. You can safely ignore Heart Seeds if the above issues don’t affect you.
Heart Seeds are currently only obtainable through the barter interface associated with Commendations of Valor.
Heart Seeds can only be used to purchase Iconic True Hearts of Wood or Epic Hearts of Wood. In particular, they cannot be used to buy the potions that Commendations of Valor can be used for.
You cannot turn Heart Seeds back into Commendations of Valor.


Thanks for your feedback on Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.

Teh_Troll
11-20-2013, 01:27 PM
This is a good thing. Now change the price of hearts to 25 seeds and you'll have a great thing.

Healemup
11-20-2013, 01:28 PM
Thanks for listening to two of the biggest issues.

RedOrm
11-20-2013, 01:35 PM
This is a good thing. Now change the price of hearts to 25 seeds and you'll have a great thing.

This. Thanks very much for this solution :)

Greetz,
Red Orm

voodoogroves
11-20-2013, 01:40 PM
Really good stuff.

I'm still worried about stacking, in general, for CoV. If you're saving them up (and not wanting to commit to heart seeds), you're really stretched for space. In theory, there will be more uses, yes? So, still one more stacking problem to solve.

TPICKRELL
11-20-2013, 01:41 PM
This is a good change to the system, thank you for listening.

ComicRelief
11-20-2013, 01:41 PM
Even though I have yet to TR in any form, I like the idea. I think it's a good solution to having CoVs BtC (not allowing multiple toons to farm for the Hearts was a really big issue), yet allows you to keep your options open for other uses of CoVs. Bravo!

{Guess that's one less gripe I can make...well, legitimately make, anyway...}
;)

Teh_Troll
11-20-2013, 01:43 PM
1. Set the heart price to 25 seeds.

2. Lower the Karma required to ETR to 2 million.

Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.

GeneralDiomedes
11-20-2013, 01:50 PM
Ingenious!

cdbd3rd
11-20-2013, 01:55 PM
1. Set the heart price to 25 seeds.

2. Lower the Karma required to ETR to 2 million.

Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.

You may have made em pause long enough to consider it with that challenge!

LOL!

Silverleafeon
11-20-2013, 01:58 PM
Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling....

Wulverine
11-20-2013, 01:58 PM
Any reason the Heart seeds aren't completely unbound? I know plenty of endgame players who don't like to TR and will still have no real use for the comms of valor. (Potion turn-ins are underwhelming).
What would be the harm of unbound Heart Seeds?

Most ingredients in the game should be unbound, imo. And let supply & demand (and hardcore vs casual players) work it's magic. Turbine would benefit from increased platinum and Astral Shard sinks.

jakeelala
11-20-2013, 02:01 PM
Blah blah blah propaganda blah

This is an improvement, the way a tourniquet and amputation of a limb is an improvement on bleeding to death. I wouldn't wish either, or this system, on my worst enemy.

By making the seeds non-convertible back to comms, you've literally done nothing to help with bag space problems for people who still hate the epic TR system and just wish to collect for consumables (because 4200 is insane, and 6 million Xp is just sort of insane). Way to go. Why are you so terrified to make them BtA? It borders (or frankly, is) irrational.

Also, 4200 comms is still vastly too many and it is sill clear this is a money grab for store hearts. Shame on you for not addressing the actual problem, which is prohibitive cost. You wouldn't need seeds if the cost was not so unreasonable.

Also, tokens never replaced loot in chests, so forcing us to choose comms instead of a deserved end reward is also, true to the rest of your implementation of this system, irrational and terribad.

But good job on half-fixing half of the problem. Seriously guys, way to go. Bro hugs all around.

rest
11-20-2013, 02:02 PM
The price is still too high.

Adding in ANOTHER layer of ingredients instead of making the comms themselves BTA is asinine, and just means that it's more likely some sort of bug will be introduced to screw people over.

I'm still not convinced that 6 million karma is the right number for ETR. Especially as the past life feats are rather meh.

Shorlong
11-20-2013, 02:10 PM
Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.


If this happens, they should grant you a free forum name change, so you can be Teh_Fanboi



The price is still too high.

Adding in ANOTHER layer of ingredients instead of making the comms themselves BTA is asinine, and just means that it's more likely some sort of bug will be introduced to screw people over.

I'm still not convinced that 6 million karma is the right number for ETR. Especially as the past life feats are rather meh.

And of course, some people will never be happy.

HungarianRhapsody
11-20-2013, 02:13 PM
Introducing: Heart Seeds
We’re adding a new, entirely optional ingredient relating to Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood called “Heart Seeds”. This new ingredient adds some complications, but we felt those complications were worth it in order to address the above issues.

Heart Seeds:

Stacks of these precious seeds can be combined to form Iconic or Epic Hearts of Wood.
Purchasable with Commendations of Valor, these seeds are Bound to Account (unlike Commendations of Valor), allowing you to get hearts of wood by pooling resources from multiple characters.
Bound to Account items are tradable to your other characters through the Shared Bank.



I like this very much. Since you are a developer posting on the DDO forums, I feel like I'm supposed to make a comment about you being made of poo or something similar, but I can't bring myself to do it since I do like this workaround very much. It's simple and fairly elegant for achieving the goals that you set out without being burdensome in making hearts of wood across several characters.

Yay devs!

toaftoaf
11-20-2013, 02:16 PM
1. Set the heart price to 25 seeds.

2. Lower the Karma required to ETR to 2 million.

Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.

we fear that day troll

Theboz
11-20-2013, 02:17 PM
The price is still too high.

Adding in ANOTHER layer of ingredients instead of making the comms themselves BTA is asinine, and just means that it's more likely some sort of bug will be introduced to screw people over.

I'm still not convinced that 6 million karma is the right number for ETR. Especially as the past life feats are rather meh.


They had their reasons for not changing the COVs from btc to bta. They have stated over and over why they are btc and not bta. They have other plans to add options that make them btc in the future. This was a way to separate the covs a bit from the hearts of wood, so that they can in a future update tinker with reincarnation a bit more then what they have been able too.

Vellrad
11-20-2013, 02:19 PM
When?

FuzzyDuck81
11-20-2013, 02:20 PM
Once again, 42 becomes the answer to life, the universe & everything.

Now, for a more important discussion we need to figure out who on the dev team are:
Arthur Dent
Ford Prefect
Trillian
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Marvin
Slartiblartfast
Trillian's mice

HungarianRhapsody
11-20-2013, 02:20 PM
The price is still too high.

Adding in ANOTHER layer of ingredients instead of making the comms themselves BTA is asinine, and just means that it's more likely some sort of bug will be introduced to screw people over.

I'm still not convinced that 6 million karma is the right number for ETR. Especially as the past life feats are rather meh.

I like this change because it involves introducing a new item that can fit in bags instead of involving more programming. Anything that avoids additional programming is a Good Thing(tm) as far as I'm concerned because it reduces the chance of bugs.

Darkrok
11-20-2013, 02:22 PM
Thank you for listening Turbine! I know there will be some outcry against this but honestly this is a solution that accomplishes both what the players (ability to earn hearts on any toon) and Turbine (BTC comm's) want. I have no opinion on the 42 vs 25 thing brought up as I haven't played enough to form that opinion but just being able to farm these on any toon is an enormous boon.

ArcaneArcher52689
11-20-2013, 02:26 PM
1. Set the heart price to 25 seeds.

2. Lower the Karma required to ETR to 2 million.

Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.

as much as I actually agree with point 1, i'm not going to push them to change a system that's just over 1 week old. As far as the karma amount, I agree that 6million is too much, but I think i'd rather have it cost 3 million, with a 4.5 million cap, allowing us to bank half an ER each time.

and some how i doubt that last part would ever happen...

Derana
11-20-2013, 02:27 PM
1. Set the heart price to 25 seeds.

2. Lower the Karma required to ETR to 2 million.

Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.

+1

p.s. thanks for the seeds update. its really needed.

Loromir
11-20-2013, 02:29 PM
Any reason the Heart seeds aren't completely unbound? I know plenty of endgame players who don't like to TR and will still have no real use for the comms of valor. (Potion turn-ins are underwhelming).
What would be the harm of unbound Heart Seeds?

Most ingredients in the game should be unbound, imo. And let supply & demand (and hardcore vs casual players) work it's magic. Turbine would benefit from increased platinum and Astral Shard sinks.

Since COV's are just one of the options for rewards on quest completion...These endgamers who don't TR would not need to take the COV but rather a different reward like Guild Renown etc.

BTA is good enough in this case.

Hafeal
11-20-2013, 02:33 PM
Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.

I see the hesitation with 'may' ... I guess I'll really get worried about the end being near if Chai shows up next echoing your thought. :cool:

Qhualor
11-20-2013, 02:37 PM
Well, it helps ease the "pain" of earning Comms but instead of addressing the problem you created another ingredient and a quick fix.

Loromir
11-20-2013, 02:37 PM
We’re aware of several topics of discussion relating to Commendations of Valor. As players get more time with Update 20, we’ll be keeping an eye on how Commendations of Valor are working out and will consider possible changes. We have identified two issues that we feel we can address sooner rather than later:

1. Bind-to-Character: Earning Hearts of Wood via multiple Characters
Commendations of Valor are an Epic Ingredient that are Bind-to-Character, because we plan to use them for lots of different reward types. However, this puts extra strain on players who are earning Hearts of wood by playing many different characters, or who may have one character earning Commendations in lower levels while another character is already at the level cap. We’d like to address this to give additional options to these players while still allowing us flexibility for reward items we offer through Commendations in the future.

2. Commendations of Valor and Bag Space
The number of Commendations of Valor received scales heavily across different character levels, which means it’s challenging to simply reduce the amounts of Commendations bestowed, or the costs for Hearts of Wood, without consequence for characters of different level. However, this was not intended to put stress on bag space, so we’d like to address that too.


Introducing: Heart Seeds
We’re adding a new, entirely optional ingredient relating to Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood called “Heart Seeds”. This new ingredient adds some complications, but we felt those complications were worth it in order to address the above issues.

Heart Seeds:
Stacks of these precious seeds can be combined to form Iconic or Epic Hearts of Wood.
Purchasable with Commendations of Valor, these seeds are Bound to Account (unlike Commendations of Valor), allowing you to get hearts of wood by pooling resources from multiple characters.
Bound to Account items are tradable to your other characters through the Shared Bank.


https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/HeartSeeds.jpg

Notes:
You can obtain 1 Heart Seed by turning 100 Commendations of Valor.
You can obtain either one Iconic True Heart of Wood or one Epic Heart of Wood by turning in 42 Heart Seeds.
You can still obtain either of those Hearts of Wood by turning in 4200 Commendations of Valor. You can safely ignore Heart Seeds if the above issues don’t affect you.
Heart Seeds are currently only obtainable through the barter interface associated with Commendations of Valor.
Heart Seeds can only be used to purchase Iconic True Hearts of Wood or Epic Hearts of Wood. In particular, they cannot be used to buy the potions that Commendations of Valor can be used for.
You cannot turn Heart Seeds back into Commendations of Valor.


Thanks for your feedback on Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.

Thanks for the fixes.

Face it, some people are just not fulfilled unless they find something to complain about. Some of these people would complain if Turbine gave every character $100 as a gift of appreciation because the check was mailed instead of hand delivered.

Turbine has proved over the past 6 weeks that they are listening to the playerbase, some people just refuse to see it.

Grosbeak07
11-20-2013, 02:38 PM
Like this in general. However, I'm still in the camp that says rather than make a new currency to save space, lower the amount of CoV's needed so I move them out of my inventory for stuff (hearts etc.) more frequently.

While we are it, I'd like to see a conversion for Purple Dragon Knight, War Wizard etc. coms for Commendations of Valor.

UurlockYgmeov
11-20-2013, 02:51 PM
Like fragments of the twelve and tokens of the twelve. Good. +1 Thank you for listening and communicating!

edit: like the name and icon - very appropriate and fits in with the existing lore. another +1

Qzipoun
11-20-2013, 02:52 PM
Does this work? Yeah sure I guess it solves the BTC issue but you're adding YET ANOTHER INGREDIENT!? I get it, you want comms of valor to be used for other stuff in the future, but at the same time, every mechanic you've introduced to be "improved in the future" has been left half-assed, I'm not convinced you'll be doing anything with comms of valor because the next big thing will just require a new type of ingredient to make sure everyone starts at 0... We'll see...

Can you now explain how these seeds are any different from epic tokens? Just separate seeds from valor all together, kill valor until you have a tangible use for them (not a potential future use) and have seeds drop in end chests. This is the only solution that solves all the issues with your current system (not competing with end rewards, no stupidly strict ransack mechanism, BTA etc.)

The issue with epic tokens was the mechanism to use them, not acquire them...

Lifespawn
11-20-2013, 02:55 PM
good change even tho I hate another ingredient this one is completely optional and leaves the cov as they are for the other uses you guys have in mind ...sooner than later I hope


I still think dropping it down to 3000 is in order and even then you would have to take every single reward as cov's it would be awesome if it could be coded like challenges and the "score" of the quest was tied to the comms u got the more u kill and the more optionals you do the bigger the payout.

rest
11-20-2013, 02:55 PM
And of course, some people will never be happy.
You're happy enough for at least 4 people. Someone's gotta white knight Turbine, and it's not gonna be me.

And your domain name is expired.

They had their reasons for not changing the COVs from btc to bta. They have stated over and over why they are btc and not bta. They have other plans to add options that make them btc in the future. This was a way to separate the covs a bit from the hearts of wood, so that they can in a future update tinker with reincarnation a bit more then what they have been able too.

"Other plans" will never materialize. How many half finished abandoned systems do we already have? Three? Five? Half a dozen? Ten? More?

And if you're counting those ridiculously lame potions as a reason for why they should remain BTC... well..

ThrakThor
11-20-2013, 02:56 PM
We’re ...STUFF...Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.

As many others have said, great compromise, you get what you want (BTC tokens for future purposes) but we get what we want (able to pool resources for TRing). I assume that the new ingredient will stack in the ingredient bag (I saw another thread that mentioned inventory space is on your agenda so that is good)? I'd also like to add my vote to reconsidering the amount of comms/heart seeds needed and the amount of Karma necessary. Please also rethink adding Comms/Seeds to the end list of Sagas, that would go a long way to helping ease the grind to something manageable.

Thank you for listening and reacting positively.

Silverleafeon
11-20-2013, 02:59 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Simple_Magic_Cube.svg/644px-Simple_Magic_Cube.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(number)

KahaNZL
11-20-2013, 03:06 PM
Thanks very much for listening and bringing the fix in !

You have a very happy customer with yet again demonstrating that turbine does indeed listen :) ( fanboi much lol )

Although I am still concerned 4200 is a little 2 high, I do think now turbine will actively tune things as time goes on.

Nice one.

**runs off to reactivate his lvl 28 Sorc to farm high lvl q** ;)

Pooklebunny
11-20-2013, 03:06 PM
Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.

*sobs*

I... I thought you were different...

*flees with rustle of crinoline*

patang01
11-20-2013, 03:06 PM
Thanks for your feedback on Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.

And thank you for addressing 2 pain points out of 3; bag space and btc. The third will of course be a question of if 4200/42 is the right or proper amount for your average player.

I think not; it suggests a week or two for people who can play DDO non stop and grind out quests really fast but that's not your average player.
On the other hand 2-3 week for average players seems reasonable. Currently I see a pace of 2-3 months which simply isn't reasonable. Especially given the average pace of leveling up to cap again.

DagazUlf
11-20-2013, 03:08 PM
Karma is still too high.

Number of seeds is too high.

And now I not only have Comms taking up inventory space, but yet another item taking up bag space.

I really can't understand why people are liking this at all.

Systern
11-20-2013, 03:12 PM
Problems with the ER implementation:

Cost prohibitive. 4200 commendations is an arbitrarily large number.
Encourages farming. During the Saga implementation, it was noted that the sagas aren't very diverse in terms of game play. There's only 4 options for epic sagas, and 2 of them overlap almost in their entirety. 83% of your Epic content is Level 24 or below, which has horrible acquisition rates for commendations. This pushes players into the same, repetitive content.
The second largest problem with the saga implementation was that its focus is on unpopular content. Guys, really, most of your players do not like Shadowfell. It was rushed to market. It's incomplete (bad loot implementation). Its design ignores most of the framework of your game (shadar-kai, howlers). It's laggy (insane spawns). Focusing on your failures further diminishes your successes.
Past lives are too conservative. You're so worried about what happens when you stack 3 or 9 of them, that you've made no single one appealing to get. The incremental progress is not worth deciding to commit to this game avenue. The cliche is "In for a penny, in for a pound" to keep people on the hamster wheel. Not "take the plunge". 6.6 million XP for +1 weapon enchant, +2 AC, or 2% doublestrike is absurd. All of the effects of past lives can typically be purchased with the first 2 AP a character gets. They're not worth an entire life or epic life to get.
Heroic past lives are a base of 5%: 5% Healing Amp. Assuming you're on the die, +1 Dc is 5% success. +1 To hit was 5% to hit before the AC changes.
Epic PLs offer less while requiring more.
The #1 most frequent feedback about Epic Destinies is: ... wait for it... "Grinding Off Destinies Is Not Fun". Designing a system that just ups the ante from 1.98m of unfunness to 6 million xp of unfunness is Epic Fail.


So, huge grind that's not fun for a minuscule payoff. Yea. Skip it.

Turbine's making progress though. The players are abandoning the system before the devs do. That's a first.

Wizza
11-20-2013, 03:21 PM
Price is still too high. Drop it to 32.

Potions are still useless.

Add CoV to Saga rewards.

Stretchicus
11-20-2013, 03:32 PM
Price is still too high. Drop it to 32.

Potions are still useless.

Add CoV to Saga rewards.

Yes, all of the above.

Trying to obfuscate the grind by breaking it down into chunks is pure marketing BS.

BTA is a step in the right direction, but I can't even be bothered to go through any suggestions as it'd make as much difference as p***ing in the wind.

Still gonna play, but the more you try to play me Turbine, the less I'm gonna pay in cold hard cash.

SirShen
11-20-2013, 03:32 PM
Karma is still too high.

Number of seeds is too high.

And now I not only have Comms taking up inventory space, but yet another item taking up bag space.

I really can't understand why people are liking this at all.

This. Yet another new ingredient too fill up the bags. We said we wanted less new ingredients. Sigh.

Teh_Troll
11-20-2013, 03:38 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the 6 million karma thing is the worst part of this system?

Raiderone
11-20-2013, 03:39 PM
Looks better. Now to see how much of a grind 4200 COV's will be. Biggest complaint was BTC. So adding an option to basically convert to BTA is a nice addition.

Cyr
11-20-2013, 03:40 PM
Yet another new ingredient...so Turbine can maybe sometime in the future have comms (you know the thing with WAY TO HIGH A NUMBER ALREADY) have a different option which apparently will really need to be bound to character (and then you will be buying that thing instead of hearts making the average time at cap without having enough comms to TR even greater).

Comms have major issues with them right now...
1) Method of acquisition requires losing out on something else (in this case massive amounts of guild renown and the rare decent item).
2) Horrible thought out numbers of comms:heart. The reason why we do not see Turbine math is because it is not done or has so many poor assumptions in it that it is preposterous. In this case the whole EH to cap and sure you will have your heart by then...
3) Even worse designed reward ratio based entirely upon only two factors difficulty factor and quest level. There is a reason why rewards in the game ARE NOT DESIGNED IN THAT FASHION PRIOR TO THIS POINT. It is called TIME TO REWARD. and DIFFICULTY TO REWARD Even when Turbine did a bad job of figuring out the numbers at least they made a token attempt to do so.
4) Huge stack size which is NOT addressed by this as we know that going in one direction to the smaller currency will limit our future options. Meaning the smart player will keep the comms as comms until they are ready to buy a heart just in case something neww comes out that they want to purchase instead.

rest
11-20-2013, 03:44 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the 6 million karma thing is the worst part of this system?

There's so much garbage with this system it's hard to pick which is actually the worst.

niehues
11-20-2013, 03:45 PM
[QUOTE=jakeelala;5175545]This is an improvement, the way a tourniquet and amputation of a limb is an improvement on bleeding to death. I wouldn't wish either, or this system, on my worst enemy.

...
Also, tokens never replaced loot in chests, so forcing us to choose comms instead of a deserved end reward is also, true to the rest of your implementation of this system, irrational and terribad.
...

This!..

why dont delivery the comms the same way u do with the Challenges mats.. finish.. the quest.. "bang.. u received XX amount of comms" this way u will fix the forced ppl to get comms instead of Items or Renowns... and the annoying comms hanging on the back pack waiting for u to click on the ingredients bag and click collect..

and yeah i also think 4200 is a bit too much.. (why dont use the same formula u have for the tokens of the 12?) that worked for years.. and ppl are already familiarized with.. )

gk_zone
11-20-2013, 03:45 PM
Introducing: Heart SeedsWe’re adding a new, entirely optional ingredient relating to Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood called “Heart Seeds”. This new ingredient adds some complications, but we felt those complications were worth it in order to address the above issues.Heart Seeds:

Stacks of these precious seeds can be combined to form Iconic or Epic Hearts of Wood.
Purchasable with Commendations of Valor, these seeds are Bound to Account (unlike Commendations of Valor), allowing you to get hearts of wood by pooling resources from multiple characters.
Bound to Account items are tradable to your other characters through the Shared Bank.

Thanks for your feedback on Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.I see what you did there. Slick. I can see Heart Seeds in the store for 30-35 TP each. 35 TP for 1, 165 for 5, 300 for 10.While it is good that you addressed two of the main concerns with respect to CoV and HoW, at least one other remains. The number CoV required is too high and acts as a disincentive to the process. I'll echo others who ask that the cost be lowered to 2500 (or less!).

Teh_Troll
11-20-2013, 03:46 PM
There's so much garbage with this system it's hard to pick which is actually the worst.

Oh come on, there's two things left that suck on a week old system. With proper trolling we might get them addressed to.

I'm all for d000m but keep it real.

gk_zone
11-20-2013, 03:52 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the 6 million karma thing is the worst part of this system?It actually may be the worst part. I've never been a fan of having to level up outside of one's main destiny. So many ways to fix it:

Do away with it.
Make it 6 million karma pooled together.
Allow one to take excess XP earned in a capped destiny (karma) and apply it to another destiny at a 50% penalty.

Thumbed_Servant
11-20-2013, 03:57 PM
This is a very very creative fix to both storage space of the Commendations and to the Bind To Character status. Plus 1 for your ingenuity.

rest
11-20-2013, 04:00 PM
Oh come on, there's two things left that suck on a week old system. With proper trolling we might get them addressed to.

I'm all for d000m but keep it real.

Heart price and karma are the two you are referring to?

You're happy with the EPL feats?

brian14
11-20-2013, 04:03 PM
Potions are still useless.

I would say not useless, just too expensive for their value. Make them a stack of 10 for the same number of CoV's, and I would buy them.

Teh_Troll
11-20-2013, 04:03 PM
Heart price and karma are the two you are referring to?

Yes.



You're happy with the EPL feats?

I'm happy enough with with. They aren't prefect but and I think the 9x passive stack is insane but it doesn't rise to the level of "suck."

Gljosh
11-20-2013, 04:04 PM
Ok this is kinda good? Now just have the TR Acorns be an option for a Saga Reward and things will be great!

Jasparion
11-20-2013, 04:04 PM
1. Set the heart price to 25 seeds.

2. Lower the Karma required to ETR to 2 million.

Do this and I may even become a Turbine Fanboi.

I agree. Until they lower the cost I cannot see myself bothering. All the change to BTA does is mean we need to get 2 characters to level 28 for every Epic TR we earn. Or we swap toons farming at 28.

Aerinsma
11-20-2013, 04:09 PM
Thank you for listening.

rest
11-20-2013, 04:13 PM
Yes.



I'm happy enough with with. They aren't prefect but and I think the 9x passive stack is insane but it doesn't rise to the level of "suck."



I see. I don't believe that 18 million karma is worth 9% DS, 9 PRR or however much fort it is(15%?). The caster ones are even worse. But hey I guess you can't be right all the time eh?

Systern
11-20-2013, 04:17 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the 6 million karma thing is the worst part of this system?


Heart price and karma are the two you are referring to?

You're happy with the EPL feats?


Yes.



I'm happy enough with with. They aren't prefect but and I think the 9x passive stack is insane but it doesn't rise to the level of "suck."


I see. I don't believe that 18 million karma is worth 9% DS, 9 PRR or however much fort it is(15%?). The caster ones are even worse. But hey I guess you can't be right all the time eh?


Problems with the ER implementation:

Cost prohibitive. 4200 commendations is an arbitrarily large number.
Encourages farming. During the Saga implementation, it was noted that the sagas aren't very diverse in terms of game play. There's only 4 options for epic sagas, and 2 of them overlap almost in their entirety. 83% of your Epic content is Level 24 or below, which has horrible acquisition rates for commendations. This pushes players into the same, repetitive content.
The second largest problem with the saga implementation was that its focus is on unpopular content. Guys, really, most of your players do not like Shadowfell. It was rushed to market. It's incomplete (bad loot implementation). Its design ignores most of the framework of your game (shadar-kai, howlers). It's laggy (insane spawns). Focusing on your failures further diminishes your successes.
Past lives are too conservative. You're so worried about what happens when you stack 3 or 9 of them, that you've made no single one appealing to get. The incremental progress is not worth deciding to commit to this game avenue. The cliche is "In for a penny, in for a pound" to keep people on the hamster wheel. Not "take the plunge". 6.6 million XP for +1 weapon enchant, +2 AC, or 2% doublestrike is absurd. All of the effects of past lives can typically be purchased with the first 2 AP a character gets. They're not worth an entire life or epic life to get.
Heroic past lives are a base of 5%: 5% Healing Amp. Assuming you're on the die, +1 Dc is 5% success. +1 To hit was 5% to hit before the AC changes.
Epic PLs offer less while requiring more.
The #1 most frequent feedback about Epic Destinies is: ... wait for it... "Grinding Off Destinies Is Not Fun". Designing a system that just ups the ante from 1.98m of unfunness to 6 million xp of unfunness is Epic Fail.


So, huge grind that's not fun for a minuscule payoff. Yea. Skip it.

Turbine's making progress though. The players are abandoning the system before the devs do. That's a first.

I agree with Rest about their worth.
I agree with Troll about the Karma.

What do you guys think about the comparison to 5% base heroic PLs?

Scraap
11-20-2013, 04:17 PM
It's a step forward on the mentioned issues.

Still not quite there on rate-of-acquisition, but presumably that'll get fixed as the 24+ game fills out. Really the big issue there is simply the monotony caused by the size of the quest list. Y'know, one of the reasons a lot of us TR'ed in the first place to buy you folks more time.

jakeelala
11-20-2013, 04:20 PM
Why is everyone ignoring the following issues:

-comms replace end rewards: this is awful.
-seeds are one way convertible which they don't save any space except if you're going to eTR. You just want the consumables? Too bad, get more bags.

And of course, the 6milxp to eTR and the 4200 comms might as we'll be 42 million it's off by a factor of at least 2 or 3 to be reasonable.

THE ONLY thing this changes is that you can now farm on multiple characters the unreasonable number of comms needed for a heart. They've just spread the misery around, not made anything less miserable.

This thread is full of sycophants.

Benthamite
11-20-2013, 04:22 PM
Why is everyone ignoring the following issues:

-comms replace end rewards: this is awful.
-seeds are one way convertible which they don't save any space except if you're going to eTR. You just want the consumables? Too bad, get more bags.

And of course, the 6milxp to eTR and the 4200 comms might as we'll be 42 million it's off by a factor of at least 2 or 3 to be reasonable.

THE ONLY thing this changes is that you can now farm on multiple characters the unreasonable number of comms needed for a heart. They've just spread the misery around, not made anything less miserable.

This thread is full of sycophants.

^^^^

Drwaz99
11-20-2013, 04:24 PM
This thread is full of sycophants.

You're right on every point. And there are only a few people left here in the forums who aren't sycophants. The rest (no specific reference intended) have probably left.

voodoogroves
11-20-2013, 04:26 PM
Why is everyone ignoring the following issues:

-comms replace end rewards: this is awful.
-seeds are one way convertible which they don't save any space except if you're going to eTR. You just want the consumables? Too bad, get more bags.

And of course, the 6milxp to eTR and the 4200 comms might as we'll be 42 million it's off by a factor of at least 2 or 3 to be reasonable.

THE ONLY thing this changes is that you can now farm on multiple characters the unreasonable number of comms needed for a heart. They've just spread the misery around, not made anything less miserable.

This thread is full of sycophants.

you should like, read it and stuff, and see the people who are pointing out at least the 2nd one multiple times

Scraap
11-20-2013, 04:29 PM
Why is everyone ignoring the following issues:

-comms replace end rewards: this is awful.
-seeds are one way convertible which they don't save any space except if you're going to eTR. You just want the consumables? Too bad, get more bags.

And of course, the 6milxp to eTR and the 4200 comms might as we'll be 42 million it's off by a factor of at least 2 or 3 to be reasonable.

THE ONLY thing this changes is that you can now farm on multiple characters the unreasonable number of comms needed for a heart. They've just spread the misery around, not made anything less miserable.

This thread is full of sycophants.

Blunt answer: because it's obvious at this point that they're too psychologically invested in the notion of folks rushing to the absolute latest levels and farming those till their eyes bleed to change the system in any truly meaningful manner.

rest
11-20-2013, 04:31 PM
The rest (no specific reference intended)

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/3/3f/ISWYDT.jpg

Gremmlynn
11-20-2013, 04:42 PM
This is an improvement, the way a tourniquet and amputation of a limb is an improvement on bleeding to death. I wouldn't wish either, or this system, on my worst enemy.

By making the seeds non-convertible back to comms, you've literally done nothing to help with bag space problems for people who still hate the epic TR system and just wish to collect for consumables (because 4200 is insane, and 6 million Xp is just sort of insane). Way to go. Why are you so terrified to make them BtA? It borders (or frankly, is) irrational.

Also, 4200 comms is still vastly too many and it is sill clear this is a money grab for store hearts. Shame on you for not addressing the actual problem, which is prohibitive cost. You wouldn't need seeds if the cost was not so unreasonable.

Also, tokens never replaced loot in chests, so forcing us to choose comms instead of a deserved end reward is also, true to the rest of your implementation of this system, irrational and terribad.

But good job on half-fixing half of the problem. Seriously guys, way to go. Bro hugs all around.Yep. Right up there with 25TP/100 favor is way to low. How is the average player supposed to own the entire game at that rate?

/sarcasm

Of course it's set up to get players to pay for them. Getting players to pay for stuff is the whole reason they developed the game. Try being happy that the store isn't the only source and 25TP/100 favor being the only way to avoid paying for the option.

jakeelala
11-20-2013, 04:43 PM
Your right on every point.

*You're. Also, thank you.

Jasparion
11-20-2013, 04:57 PM
THE ONLY thing this changes is that you can now farm on multiple characters the unreasonable number of comms needed for a heart. They've just spread the misery around, not made anything less miserable.

Exactly the point I made. Every time we want an epic TR we need to run 2 toons from 20 to 28. Does this mean the Turbine model is we buy one, get one free?

At least we can get some steak knives thrown in...

jakeelala
11-20-2013, 05:00 PM
Yep. Right up there with 25TP/100 favor is way to low. How is the average player supposed to own the entire game at that rate?

/sarcasm

Of course it's set up to get players to pay for them. Getting players to pay for stuff is the whole reason they developed the game. Try being happy that the store isn't the only source and 25TP/100 favor being the only way to avoid paying for the option.

Wrong. I'm a VIP. I pay for the right to play the whole game and I'm still incensed everything they release content or new races/classes that I have to pay MOAR.

At 15$/month, I've been playing since April of 2006. That's 90 months. Which is is close to $1500!!1!!1? If they've lost 1000 VIPs since 2006, that's 15 grand a month, at a minimum, without Turbone store purchases. You do the math. It's in the 7 figures.

That's how much money turbine loses on VIPs when they quit because of bad marketing decisions. That doesn't include store purchases. Turbine probably has 1/10th the VIPs they used to (maybe far less) and so now they have to rape everyone to stay afloat as everyone jumps ship. Like any failing retail venture instead of Reverting to a previously successful model, they will go down famously, squeezing and gouging their dwindling customer base to extract any profit they can. The increasing greed and cost to play this game is in aggregate simply a Newtonian reaction to the their dwindling base of VIPs who provided regular and steady income for the convenience of not having to fork over large sums for new stuff. They borked that and now realize they messed up and they're poor.

You see, with a VIP model, exploiting cost them nothing. In fact, it was more of a little perk for the hardcore, long term end game players who usually find them. But with the Turbone store, and everything directly affecting their revenue, those exploits, with the type of duping that went, probably cost them 4 to5 figures a day (at a minimum, just an estimate) and will continue to do so for reduced sales of many items in the store (hearts, shards for gold rolls, etc) for months to come.

What's the solution? Commendations of Valor, since all of comms have been completely deflated in value. Oh, and temp bans on VIPs, because they need that cashcashcash. How the mighty have fallen. And just because someone is particularly sadistic, 4200 comms to eTR for underwhelming abilities requiring 5! Large green bags to carry 120-180 forgone quest end rewards (close to half a million plat per epic heart, depending on your haggle).

I can't believe I just wasted so much time writing all of that.

Draxis
11-20-2013, 05:09 PM
Cool. None of these changes are really going to affect me, though.

But what about the disparity between those of us who prefer to play only one or two toons and those who are alt-aholics? Now the alt-aholics can run their 10+ capped toons through the same high-comm producing quests in a single day and waaaay outperform those of use who are limited to just one instance of these quests, and then are relegated to running only low-comm quests for the remainder of the day.

I understand that I probably represent a minority in DDO, but I want shinies too!

PS: This change means we're also going to see an exponential rise in monkchers on at any given point, seeing as they're the build which can most easily farm comms.

maddmatt70
11-20-2013, 05:11 PM
Thank you. This is going to help my light tank quite a bit. He just is not very efficient at doing quests because he is not a very good dps or killer character. My archer on the other hand for e.g. is a great dps/killer - this will probably change the way I play my light tank. Almost certainly emphasize xp more on my light tank then COV. I can much more easily farm the COVs I need on my archer to help my light tank epic tr.

Teh_Troll
11-20-2013, 05:17 PM
you can't be right all the time eh?

No

dragon2fire
11-20-2013, 05:17 PM
When?

Soon


Also the price is still way way to high seriously.

Teh_Troll
11-20-2013, 05:18 PM
This thread is full of sycophants.

I balance it out.

jakeelala
11-20-2013, 05:24 PM
I balance it out.

As far as this thread goes, you're choking on my dust.

Silverleafeon
11-20-2013, 05:27 PM
I see what you did there. Slick. I can see Heart Seeds in the store for 30-35 TP each. 35 TP for 1, 165 for 5, 300 for 10.While it is good that you addressed two of the main concerns with respect to CoV and HoW, at least one other remains. The number CoV required is too high and acts as a disincentive to the process. I'll echo others who ask that the cost be lowered to 2500 (or less!).

Oh dear, what will they do after selling Seeds in the DDO store, maybe actually sell Hearts in the DDO store too?
Do0o0o0o0o0o0om!

"A terrible curse is upon us all..."*


*(DDO intro movie)

dragon2fire
11-20-2013, 05:35 PM
Oh dear, what will they do after selling Seeds in the DDO store, maybe actually sell Hearts in the DDO store too?
Do0o0o0o0o0o0om!

"A terrible curse is upon us all..."*


*(DDO intro movie)

How dare any one complain about things being to expensive.

Teh_Troll
11-20-2013, 05:38 PM
I agree with Rest about their worth.
I agree with Troll about the Karma.

What do you guys think about the comparison to 5% base heroic PLs?

Man . . . 15% double-strike is huge. it'd incentive more TRing . . . can't say I think it's not a bit much though.

Silverleafeon
11-20-2013, 05:44 PM
How dare any one complain about things being to expensive.

On a more serious note, Fawngate is about to acquire her 4th epic past life.
Colors of the Queen x3, trying to decided what next, and taking level 28.

She has in her ingredients bag exactly 2116 commendations of valor.

She has used xp pots as times, she has epic greater tome of learning, she has used the epic Otto's boxes.
She was at level cap, and expected to gain an epic heart every other life, which is simply not happening.

Systern
11-20-2013, 05:50 PM
Man . . . 15% double-strike is huge. it'd incentive more TRing . . . can't say I think it's not a bit much though.

Isn't the max doublestrike at the moment around 41% on a druid? Raising that to 56% still won't make a druid more powerful than a THF or TWF character.


Also, I think it's amusing that the purpose for Doublestrike's introduction was to balance S&B and THF versus the power of TWF at the time... Now Doublestrike is more advantageous to THF and TWF, and S&B is still horribly left behind.

Ninety
11-20-2013, 05:56 PM
2500 commendation of valor or 25 seeds would be a lot better.

Portalcat
11-20-2013, 06:01 PM
The man says that they've identified two problems that they can solve quickly (read: easily and without breaking any of the design goals), and he posts a solution that does just that.

Take a win where you can get it. This is a good solution that solves a needless problem given the design of the system. For the love of all things good, not everything is a money grab and if anyone is seriously complaining about a single bag slot as if that's a real sacrifice, then that's fairly good evidence that a substantive complaint isn't available to be made.


It's been said here and elsewhere that the other issues are being monitored. The system is less than 2 weeks old and major changes will ripple through DDO for years; I'd certainly be conservative in their shoes and want to have more data on hand before dramatically changing it.

I would argue that the biggest problem right now is a relative dearth of epic content, especially on the high end. This is also a solvable problem while keeping the existing numbers, but one which will get solved over time. Move up epic versions of Eberron content in your priority queue. Heck, just telling us that this is in the works and that we can expect such in some of the next few major updates and patches would alleviate a fair amount of the griping.

Silverleafeon
11-20-2013, 06:12 PM
I'm surprised that raids don't grant larger amounts of commendations of valor.
Having Sagas offer them as a reward might be a good option as well.

I do appreciate the fact that this change of adding the seeds was requested awhile back by players and the Devs listened.
Not much point in putting Seeds in the DDO store since hearts are there already, that amused me.

Thank you for continuing to consider more changes to the system.

Pooklebunny
11-20-2013, 06:24 PM
Turbine's making progress though. The players are abandoning the system before the devs do. That's a first.

This. It's total rubbish. Levelling from 20-28 entirely in an off-destiny in order to get the karma to pick up a past life for that sphere is mind-numbingly stupid; the devs created them with a view to most of them being universally useful to any character (although not equally so) and then basically mandated a route to acquiring them which means you have to, essentially, not play that character as that character for much of the time. Bravo.

Frankly, I couldn't give a **** how much karma it takes to Epic TR - hell, make it 12 million for all I care - so long as I can earn it in a useful destiny.

Pooklebunny
11-20-2013, 06:27 PM
I balance it out.

You balance nothing, you hear me? Nothing! You've already volunteered to sell your birthright for a mess of pottage in this thread once already. We can't rely on you any more :'(

moomooprincess
11-20-2013, 06:43 PM
Whatever happened to Keep it Simple, S?

A good way to drive away players is to make it over complicated.

gk_zone
11-20-2013, 06:50 PM
Oh dear, what will they do after selling Seeds in the DDO store, maybe actually sell Hearts in the DDO store too?Do0o0o0o0o0o0om!"A terrible curse is upon us all..."**(DDO intro movie)I didn't say that selling seeds in the store was a necessarily a bad thing. I don't care if they sell seeds in the store. What I do care about is introducing them (potentially) to assuage players complaining about the 4200 comms required in the current system.

EllisDee37
11-20-2013, 07:19 PM
Great fix to one of the three main issues with the valor system. Well done.

Hearts still cost too much valor/seeds and the amount of karma needed is also too high, both by pretty significant percentages.

What I'd like to see is the comm cost for a heart based on an even split of all epic quests. For the purposes of this calculation, assign each quest's xp value as double the base xp. (20% daily playthough +10% persistance +10% flawless +15% ransack +25% conquest = 180% * (5% voice + 5% ship + 5% cannith pots) = 207%, close enough to 200%.)

Once you have every quest's modified base value, add them all together in one lump sum. This is the xp you get for running every quest once. Let's say it ends up being 2 million xp. That means you'd need to run every quest 3 times to hit 28. If those were the numbers, an epic heart should cost however many comms you'd get running every quest on EH 3 times. If you want to base it on 10 million xp instead of 6 million in preparation for the cap going to 30, fine.

My main point is that the current balancing appears to be heavily weighted toward high level content, when there's no particular incentive to run high level content for xp. A level 25 can run pretty much any epic quest level without penalty and bank up to level 27 while doing it. I'd like to see it changed to weight all epic quests evenly.


Of course it's set up to get players to pay for them. Getting players to pay for stuff is the whole reason they developed the game. Try being happy that the store isn't the only source and 25TP/100 favor being the only way to avoid paying for the option.But as was pointed out in another thread, TRing shouldn't be a profit center. TRing should be a player retention tool. Trying to squeeze money out of the TR system is dangerous to the health of the game by reducing its effectiveness in retaining players.

That is a very real and meaningful reason why tring for free via minimal grind is something the devs should consider.

EDIT: Here's a link (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430993-A-better-way-for-DDO-to-monetize-Epic-Reincarnation) to that thread.

rest
11-20-2013, 07:28 PM
Isn't the max doublestrike at the moment around 41% on a druid? Raising that to 56% still won't make a druid more powerful than a THF or TWF character.


Also, I think it's amusing that the purpose for Doublestrike's introduction was to balance S&B and THF versus the power of TWF at the time... Now Doublestrike is more advantageous to THF and TWF, and S&B is still horribly left behind.

38%. No druid levels.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/rest_rsx/DDO/doublestrike.jpg

20% more if I can keep the killer buff active and fully stacked (usually only 5% though)

So I guess I could conceivably hit 78% for 20 seconds if I had a full stack of killer and was part druid. 87% if I felt 18 million xp was worth 9% more. I'd love 15% more from heroic past lives :p

Ivan_Milic
11-20-2013, 07:36 PM
I have a question.
Are epl feats available at heroic lvls, meaning if you get that doublestrike active feat, can you use it below lvl 20?

Jasparion
11-20-2013, 07:46 PM
The man says that they've identified two problems that they can solve quickly (read: easily and without breaking any of the design goals), and he posts a solution that does just that.

It didnt fix anything that couldnt have been fixed by simply reducing the cost to 2500 comms.

I dare say all the extra man-hours being invested in making the changes massively outweigh the work required to change "4200" to "2500".

They are still focussed on us buying an epic heart every 2nd time we TR. They are not at all interested in us being able to earn them every life.

dragon2fire
11-20-2013, 08:07 PM
It didnt fix anything that couldnt have been fixed by simply reducing the cost to 2500 comms.

I dare say all the extra man-hours being invested in making the changes massively outweigh the work required to change "4200" to "2500".

They are still focussed on us buying an epic heart every 2nd time we TR. They are not at all interested in us being able to earn them every life.

This

SilkofDrasnia
11-20-2013, 08:25 PM
It didnt fix anything that couldnt have been fixed by simply reducing the cost to 2500 comms.

I dare say all the extra man-hours being invested in making the changes massively outweigh the work required to change "4200" to "2500".

They are still focussed on us buying an epic heart every 2nd time we TR. They are not at all interested in us being able to earn them every life.

Pretty much like you say they could have fixed this easily by changing a few numbers and letters, 4200 to 2500 and BTC to BTA but alas they don't really wan't people earning Hearts this way they want us to buy them.

TBH I am surprised they haven't pulled this BS sooner.


LoL notice how this "fix" will also cause us to need to find room for yet another junk item in our bags!

Silverleafeon
11-20-2013, 08:27 PM
I didn't say that selling seeds in the store was a necessarily a bad thing. I don't care if they sell seeds in the store. What I do care about is introducing them (potentially) to assuage players complaining about the 4200 comms required in the current system.

I can understand that.

Fawngate is now well on her way to her 5th epic past life, yet only halfway to earning her first free epic heart.

I wonder if sometime in the future we will see something like, ___ (insert large number) coms of valor to upgrade ___ (insert item) to level 30?
Should I hoard them?

Jasparion
11-20-2013, 08:39 PM
Pretty much like you say they could have fixed this easily by changing a few numbers and letters, 4200 to 2500 and BTC to BTA but alas they don't really wan't people earning Hearts this way they want us to buy them.

TBH I am surprised they haven't pulled this BS sooner.


LoL notice how this "fix" will also cause us to need to find room for yet another junk item in our bags!

I actually dont care if the comms are BTC or BTA. I'd be totally fine with earning the epic TR on the toon which ends up doing the epic TR.

I do care that it will take me 2 trips to 28 to be able to earn a single epic TR, meaning I have to end up buying an epic TR. But the thing is, I wont buy an epic TR. Ever. It simply will not happen.

I will either stay at 28 until I get bored and quit the game, or dump my Completionist toon and start again. But I dont plan on doing Completionist again.

Teh_Troll
11-20-2013, 08:50 PM
You balance nothing, you hear me? Nothing! You've already volunteered to sell your birthright for a mess of pottage in this thread once already. We can't rely on you any more :'(

Hjeal meh.

SilkofDrasnia
11-20-2013, 09:37 PM
I actually dont care if the comms are BTC or BTA. I'd be totally fine with earning the epic TR on the toon which ends up doing the epic TR.

I do care that it will take me 2 trips to 28 to be able to earn a single epic TR, meaning I have to end up buying an epic TR. But the thing is, I wont buy an epic TR. Ever. It simply will not happen.

I will either stay at 28 until I get bored and quit the game, or dump my Completionist toon and start again. But I dont plan on doing Completionist again.

You should care! If these thing were BTA instead of BTC you could still Keep ETRing that one char while keeping another at cap earning valcoms.

The big kick in the nuts is that high cost and BTC factor.

Jasparion
11-20-2013, 10:11 PM
You should care! If these thing were BTA instead of BTC you could still Keep ETRing that one char while keeping another at cap earning valcoms.

Sure it would be nice, but its not vital. Raid gear is BTC, often named items are BTC. We earn those on the toons which end up using them. But the thing is, if you earned the bulk of your comms while levelling to 28 you dont really need that 2nd character.

Unless the goal is to use XP stones to jump to 28. But if that is the case, then buy the comms as well. Im just after a way for people to earn rewards in game in a reasonable manner (regardless of whether or not there is a store option for the cashed up/lazy).

SilkofDrasnia
11-20-2013, 11:42 PM
Sure it would be nice, but its not vital. Raid gear is BTC, often named items are BTC. We earn those on the toons which end up using them. But the thing is, if you earned the bulk of your comms while levelling to 28 you dont really need that 2nd character.

Unless the goal is to use XP stones to jump to 28. But if that is the case, then buy the comms as well. Im just after a way for people to earn rewards in game in a reasonable manner (regardless of whether or not there is a store option for the cashed up/lazy).

You seem determined to miss the point, most people don't play just one char. I am far far from being an altoholic yet even I have 2 main char I run. ONE is always at cap and the other TRs, they alternate depending on my mood. Point is if these thing were BTA you would be earning valcoms all the time and put them all, from all char, towards one Heart.

That is how I earned my hearts. I have never bought a Heart from the store and don't plan too either but with the valcoms being BTC it will make it difficult for me not to have to even If I choose to leave one char permanently at lvl 28.

The reason still remains is that the cost is too high compared to before when doing 1 to 20 even the old epic way with the 16hr timer add to that the valcoms are btc instead of bta like tokens.

They have increased the cost or "grind" and reduced the amount of sources "characters" in which you can grind to get one heart for one char.


Now for people that play ONE char only maybe what you say makes sense but I would bet that most people don't play just one char.

It is an unreasonable expectation for them to "tune" things for people that only play one character but the problem here is they went to far.

Their intent here was to limit the freeloading and force people that don't spend much cash (lets say premiums that own pretty much all packs and as such have no need to buy TP like myself) to spend more.

Problem is I won't spend more, I throw 20 bucks or so now and then for TP but I am not keen on paying for hearts as that would surpass what I am willing to put into this game.

Thrudh
11-20-2013, 11:53 PM
expected to gain an epic heart every other life, which is simply not happening.

You're doing it wrong


She has used xp pots as times, she has epic greater tome of learning, she has used the epic Otto's boxes.

!!!!

(Turbine needs to give Comms inside Otto boxes... I can't think of any reason to buy an epic Otto box, if you're not also going to buy a heart)

But if you do buy Ottos boxes, you really shouldn't complain about comm drops.

malkav1973
11-21-2013, 12:32 AM
This is a good thing. Now change the price of hearts to 25 seeds and you'll have a great thing.

What he said. Both parts.

Flavilandile
11-21-2013, 01:37 AM
Nice to see news on that front and to see that even if the nightmare is live now things are still flexible.



1. Bind-to-Character: Earning Hearts of Wood via multiple Characters


Just make them BTA, and you address this problem.



2. Commendations of Valor and Bag Space


It's not just the commendations, It's the heaps of ingredients of all the half finished systems that have been put in place over time...
You want a list of all the thing that ends up in the Green Bag ? I can probably give you one later today. ( I'm at work now, I can't check my 10+ green bags )
You will have to address that problem at some time, as adding more and more ingredients will not be possible for long.
The fact that having CoV BTA will allow us to consolidate all the CoV in one single bag, thus taking 1 bag space ( if the price drops below 2500 ) overall, while keeping them BTC
forces us to waste on them 1 bag space on every single Epic character we have.



Introducing: Heart Seeds
We’re adding a new, entirely optional ingredient relating to Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood called “Heart Seeds”. This new ingredient adds some complications, but we felt those complications were worth it in order to address the above issues.


Holy hell, why do you add complexity on an already overly complex system ? Why can't you just change the CoV to BTA and be done with it ?
That way you wouldn't have to add a new ingredient that just look like a patch on a sore wound. ( see above about the ingredient problem )

Overall :
Thanks for the move, but that's not really what is wanted nor what is needed.
We don't want and we don't need a new ingredient, we just want CoVs to be made BTA.
( and to be found into end quest chests and not as a Tough Choice [ I know you have a fondness for them ] in the Reward list. )

lyrecono
11-21-2013, 01:46 AM
Hi, here we introduce more stuff you didn't ask for to fix stuff you oh so nice playerbase told us many times wasn't working during Beta

The amount is still to high, Com's are related to broken and unfun content that needed fixing from the start, wich we have pointed out in beta

Btw
parody is protected speech



Problems with the ER implementation:

Cost prohibitive. 4200 commendations is an arbitrarily large number.
Encourages farming. During the Saga implementation, it was noted that the sagas aren't very diverse in terms of game play. There's only 4 options for epic sagas, and 2 of them overlap almost in their entirety. 83% of your Epic content is Level 24 or below, which has horrible acquisition rates for commendations. This pushes players into the same, repetitive content.
The second largest problem with the saga implementation was that its focus is on unpopular content. Guys, really, most of your players do not like Shadowfell. It was rushed to market. It's incomplete (bad loot implementation). Its design ignores most of the framework of your game (shadar-kai, howlers). It's laggy (insane spawns). Focusing on your failures further diminishes your successes.
Past lives are too conservative. You're so worried about what happens when you stack 3 or 9 of them, that you've made no single one appealing to get. The incremental progress is not worth deciding to commit to this game avenue. The cliche is "In for a penny, in for a pound" to keep people on the hamster wheel. Not "take the plunge". 6.6 million XP for +1 weapon enchant, +2 AC, or 2% doublestrike is absurd. All of the effects of past lives can typically be purchased with the first 2 AP a character gets. They're not worth an entire life or epic life to get.
Heroic past lives are a base of 5%: 5% Healing Amp. Assuming you're on the die, +1 Dc is 5% success. +1 To hit was 5% to hit before the AC changes.
Epic PLs offer less while requiring more.
The #1 most frequent feedback about Epic Destinies is: ... wait for it... "Grinding Off Destinies Is Not Fun". Designing a system that just ups the ante from 1.98m of unfunness to 6 million xp of unfunness is Epic Fail.


So, huge grind that's not fun for a minuscule payoff. Yea. Skip it.

Turbine's making progress though. The players are abandoning the system before the devs do. That's a first.

What he said,
cost too much coms,
Related to bad content,
6 mil exp too high (youre forced into destinies that do not suit your build)
Half the Epic past lives are to weak to consider.
Etc

Am I the only one who thinks the 6 million karma thing is the worst part of this system?

Yes, i'm usualy with you on stuff, i guess your troll-fu is weak today.
I think the worst part is that after all this time they still don't listen to their player base well enough on beta and were dealing with fix after fix after fix.
In this particular case: Fail coms should not have left beta yet untill it was done propper.

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 02:07 AM
I see what you did there. Slick. I can see Heart Seeds in the store for 30-35 TP each. 35 TP for 1, 165 for 5, 300 for 10.While it is good that you addressed two of the main concerns with respect to CoV and HoW, at least one other remains. The number CoV required is too high and acts as a disincentive to the process. I'll echo others who ask that the cost be lowered to 2500 (or less!).Um no. At your prices it would only cost 1270tp to eTR using seeds, while a heart goes for 1295TP. It would cost at least as much to buy the parts as it does the whole and probably more to do so.

I also don't see how the ability to buy the parts could be considered a bad thing. Farm up 2200 comms while leveling and only need to buy the 200 seeds needed as opposed to the store being all or nothing in this regard. Seems like this would be to our advantage.

Thordarr
11-21-2013, 02:32 AM
Genius. Thumbs up for Devs :-)

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 02:37 AM
Wrong. I'm a VIP. I pay for the right to play the whole game and I'm still incensed everything they release content or new races/classes that I have to pay MOAR.Wrong. This is what you wish subscribing meant. What it does mean is exactally what it says it means. All "non-expansion" content and all non-favor reward races and classes, plus other specific perks. Not every option that is ever added to the game.


At 15$/month, I've been playing since April of 2006. That's 90 months. Which is is close to $1500!!1!!1? If they've lost 1000 VIPs since 2006, that's 15 grand a month, at a minimum, without Turbone store purchases. You do the math. It's in the 7 figures.

That's how much money turbine loses on VIPs when they quit because of bad marketing decisions. That doesn't include store purchases. Turbine probably has 1/10th the VIPs they used to (maybe far less) and so now they have to rape everyone to stay afloat as everyone jumps ship. Like any failing retail venture instead of Reverting to a previously successful model, they will go down famously, squeezing and gouging their dwindling customer base to extract any profit they can. The increasing greed and cost to play this game is in aggregate simply a Newtonian reaction to the their dwindling base of VIPs who provided regular and steady income for the convenience of not having to fork over large sums for new stuff. They borked that and now realize they messed up and they're poor.

You see, with a VIP model, exploiting cost them nothing. In fact, it was more of a little perk for the hardcore, long term end game players who usually find them. But with the Turbone store, and everything directly affecting their revenue, those exploits, with the type of duping that went, probably cost them 4 to5 figures a day (at a minimum, just an estimate) and will continue to do so for reduced sales of many items in the store (hearts, shards for gold rolls, etc) for months to come. Subscribing has been optional since Sept. 2009. It is only part of their revenue picture and possibly not the most important part.


What's the solution? Commendations of Valor, since all of comms have been completely deflated in value. Oh, and temp bans on VIPs, because they need that cashcashcash. How the mighty have fallen. And just because someone is particularly sadistic, 4200 comms to eTR for underwhelming abilities requiring 5! Large green bags to carry 120-180 forgone quest end rewards (close to half a million plat per epic heart, depending on your haggle).The solution? If you find it both so underwhelming and onerous, it would seem the obvious solution would be to simply ignore it even exists. It's how I deal with heroic TRing and I don't find the cost, for the TR heart anyway, to be even worth mentioning.

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 02:55 AM
Am I the only one who thinks the 6 million karma thing is the worst part of this system?Nope. As it's 6.6 million xp anyway, I don't see the need to force players to spend most of the time earning that in what might be an undesirable destiny for the build. 2 million in sphere would seem enough to have earned the right to claim the PLF without turning playing the game completely into a chore needed to get done, rather than something we actually want to do. I could even see karma not resetting and 6 million opens a sphere permanently to claim PLF's from as this matches up nicely with completing all destinies in it (or not if one preferred to earn it all in one or two).

Leveling from 20-28 should be the hamster wheel, how we do that would be best left up to us if they actually want us to do it 36 times I would think.

Ytteri
11-21-2013, 03:10 AM
Although these seeds address one of the symptoms of the problem, they don't touch the problem itself which is that comms take way too long to farm. If you're set on hearts costing 4200 comms, then you need to seriously re-evaluate how many are dropping, and where.

First: Raids should grant significantly more commendations. At least triple what a quest would at the same level/difficulty

Second: ALL raids should drop comms, not just epic ones. You might also restore some obsolete content to significance, like HOX and VOD. Not Titan though. I don't think anything can save Titan.

Third: Quest difficulty relative to amount of comms. I think 30 comms for elite King's Forest quests is a good amount. 60 comms for elite What Goes Up is not.

Fourth: Challenges. This was the crux of the whole occupy stormreach protest. Essentially, with getting hearts from tokens of the twelve, there was a way to get them relatively quickly. It was boring as hell, but someone could earn a heart from nothing in a single day. Or maybe 3 days if they got too bored repeating the same challenge too many times in a row. With comms, it takes weeks, maybe months. Allow trading eveningstar challenge mats for commendations. Maybe 25 mats per comm. Give a little more variety to people who are farming for comms. And also make the eveningstar challenges good for something, since the other stuff they can buy isn't worth anything.


P.S. The current cost of hearts is what keeps me from wanting to buy any iconic races. Just FYI.

karl_k0ch
11-21-2013, 04:08 AM
I like the design. I feel that the prices are too steep, still.

I'm looking forward to an implementation of the Seeds, with an ongoing monitoring of the turn-in prices for the hearts.

EllisDee37
11-21-2013, 05:22 AM
You should care! If these thing were BTA instead of BTC you could still Keep ETRing that one char while keeping another at cap earning valcoms.

The big kick in the nuts is that high cost and BTC factor.The BTC aspect is now a complete non-factor thanks to seeds.

ReaperAlexEU
11-21-2013, 07:22 AM
-seeds are one way convertible which they don't save any space except if you're going to eTR. You just want the consumables? Too bad, get more bags.


ok, this part i just don't get. if you just want the consumables when why are you farming enough comms to blow your ing bag up instead of spending them on consumables?


Why is everyone ignoring the following issues:

-comms replace end rewards: this is awful.

And of course, the 6milxp to eTR and the 4200 comms might as we'll be 42 million it's off by a factor of at least 2 or 3 to be reasonable.

THE ONLY thing this changes is that you can now farm on multiple characters the unreasonable number of comms needed for a heart. They've just spread the misery around, not made anything less miserable.

This thread is full of sycophants.

i'd prefer chest drops too

i think the 4.2K is based on us running top level content, which by and large we don't do for various reasons. here's hoping they either give us enough top level content we want to run to negate this issue, or they redo the balance to match what we actually enjoy playing

i think i could handle the 6mill exp on the sphere my primary destiny is in (i'd just stick in primary and ignore the others), but i'm already wrinkling my nose at the prospect of running in primal sphere to unlock the doubleshot feat for my mechanic/assassin.

so in general i'm not against the argue to drop kama and comms, it's more your point about bag space that i don't get.

Thrudh
11-21-2013, 07:44 AM
Nope. As it's 6.6 million xp anyway, I don't see the need to force players to spend most of the time earning that in what might be an undesirable destiny for the build. 2 million in sphere would seem enough to have earned the right to claim the PLF without turning playing the game completely into a chore needed to get done, rather than something we actually want to do. I could even see karma not resetting and 6 million opens a sphere permanently to claim PLF's from as this matches up nicely with completing all destinies in it (or not if one preferred to earn it all in one or two).

Leveling from 20-28 should be the hamster wheel, how we do that would be best left up to us if they actually want us to do it 36 times I would think.

I agree too... 2-3 million for a sphere is a better idea.

SenorPhatnutZ
11-21-2013, 08:03 AM
Notes:

You can obtain 1 Heart Seed by turning 100 Commendations of Valor.
You can obtain either one Iconic True Heart of Wood or one Epic Heart of Wood by turning in 42 Heart Seeds.
You can still obtain either of those Hearts of Wood by turning in 4200 Commendations of Valor. You can safely ignore Heart Seeds if the above issues don’t affect you.
Heart Seeds are currently only obtainable through the barter interface associated with Commendations of Valor.
Heart Seeds can only be used to purchase Iconic True Hearts of Wood or Epic Hearts of Wood. In particular, they cannot be used to buy the potions that Commendations of Valor can be used for.



To make me personally very happy do this -

Add:


You can obtain one Heroic True Heart of Wood by turning in 25 Heart Seeds.
You can obtain one Heroic True Heart of Wood by turning in 2500 Commendations of Valor.


Or - and I think this is even better - allow commendations to be exchanged for tokens of the twelve. 100 CoV's to 1 ToT seems reasonable. This would be ideal for farming hearts between TR's while simultaneously farming ED XP to expand spheres. It works on many levels - including augment trade ins. And while I'm wishing on the pie in the sky... Ad Commendations of Heroism to the list of stuff you can trade CoV's for. Even if it' 5000 to 1 CoV to CoH, I'd still rather do that than run FoT and CitW a million times.

danotmano1998
11-21-2013, 10:24 AM
Turbine:

Thank you for listening and attempting to meet us partway with this.
But seriously. 4200 is too much. 6 million xp is too much.
For 1% energy absorption?

So 54 MILLION xp and 37,800 Commendations to get 9% energy absorption?

9%?? I can pick up more energy absorption by taking 12 seconds to walk over to the auction house and equipping a generic trash item.

So.. 12 seconds of game time versus ... Maybe a year of casual gaming? Hmm.

Ancient
11-21-2013, 10:34 AM
Glad you are listening. This is a good step.

Krelar
11-21-2013, 10:37 AM
Nope. As it's 6.6 million xp anyway, I don't see the need to force players to spend most of the time earning that in what might be an undesirable destiny for the build. 2 million in sphere would seem enough to have earned the right to claim the PLF without turning playing the game completely into a chore needed to get done, rather than something we actually want to do. I could even see karma not resetting and 6 million opens a sphere permanently to claim PLF's from as this matches up nicely with completing all destinies in it (or not if one preferred to earn it all in one or two).

Leveling from 20-28 should be the hamster wheel, how we do that would be best left up to us if they actually want us to do it 36 times I would think.

You know what I like best about 2 million as a number? It fits nicely with how you have to do heroic lives. To earn a heroic life you need at least 7/20 levels in the class you want. (depending on the other 2 classes you pair it with) Take 6 million times 7/20 and you get 2.1 million xp running in the sphere you want to get an epic past life in.

Vargouille
11-21-2013, 10:40 AM
We're aiming to put this into an upcoming patch along with some other fixes.


I have a question.
Are epl feats available at heroic lvls, meaning if you get that doublestrike active feat, can you use it below lvl 20?

Yes.

rest
11-21-2013, 10:48 AM
We're aiming to put this into an upcoming patch along with some other fixes.


Unless those alleged fixes include dramatically lowering both the Commendation of Valor and Karma cost, you're wasting everyone's time.

Vellrad
11-21-2013, 10:53 AM
Unless those alleged fixes include dramatically lowering both the Commendation of Valor and Karma cost, you're wasting everyone's time.

No more easy buttons plz.

Satyriasys
11-21-2013, 10:58 AM
No more easy buttons plz.

Easy button? No it's just too time consuming. Easy has nothing to do with it. The Devs have already said their intent was for players to be able to purchase a heart upon reaching cap, or come close to it. They are currently a few thousand short.

Qhualor
11-21-2013, 11:07 AM
I have a question.
Are epl feats available at heroic lvls, meaning if you get that doublestrike active feat, can you use it below lvl 20?


Yes.

Oh good, more power creep to continue trivializing heroics. Can't say I'm surprised because I said this would happen weeks ago. Maybe now players will be content losing the use of twists in heroics soon (TM)?

Drwaz99
11-21-2013, 11:08 AM
No more easy buttons plz.

Nothing easy about it. Currently hearts are double the price they should be. And instead of fixing the main cause (they are too expensive) they are putting bandaids. Probably spending more money on development time for these "fixes" trying to avoid lowering the costs than they would have by adjusting the amount down and losing the occasional heart sale.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that the upcoming "rewards" you can purchase with Vcomms with have to be bought with Vcomms and not these Heart Seeds. So everyone who converted them to save space won't be able to convert them back and have to farm even more Vcomms if they want to buy these new consumables.

On the other hand if they are anything like the current potions, they will be overpriced and basically worthless so we don't have to worry about it.

Enoach
11-21-2013, 11:09 AM
These changes are a step in the right direction -

I appreciate preserving the Turbine Desire to keep Commendations of Valor BTC and giving players a BTA option in a reasonable chunk

I look forward to the resolutions you have planned for the other issues concerning this system.

Vellrad
11-21-2013, 11:13 AM
It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that the upcoming "rewards" you can purchase with Vcomms with have to be bought with Vcomms and not these Heart Seeds.


It wouldn't suprise me too, as Varg said seeds will be for hearts only.

Satyriasys
11-21-2013, 11:13 AM
Oh good, more power creep to continue trivializing heroics. Can't say I'm surprised because I said this would happen weeks ago. Maybe now players will be content losing the use of twists in heroics soon (TM)?

The devs even asked us if we think epic feats should be usable in heroics, and while a few of us were against it we were outnumbered by those who wanted it. This is also why the epic feats we got are on the weaker side, to balance for heroics. A very poor decision in my opinion. Since epic TR brings you to level 20 these really have no place in heroics.

redspecter23
11-21-2013, 11:15 AM
Nothing easy about it. Currently hearts are double the price they should be. And instead of fixing the main cause (they are too expensive) they are putting bandaids. Probably spending more money on development time for these "fixes" trying to avoid lowering the costs than they would have by adjusting the amount down and losing the occasional heart sale.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that the upcoming "rewards" you can purchase with Vcomms with have to be bought with Vcomms and not these Heart Seeds. So everyone who converted them to save space won't be able to convert them back and have to farm even more Vcomms if they want to buy these new consumables.

On the other hand if they are anything like the current potions, they will be overpriced and basically worthless so we don't have to worry about it.

Varg essentially said exactly that. Seeds are used for hearts only. The other purchasable items such as potions are bought with coms so the character with the coms has to buy them. Heart seeds were created with two purposes. To ease up on bag storage and also to allow the coms to basically be bta but only for the purchase of hearts. To see anything other than this from the dev statement is to read it wrong.

However, it doesn't change the fact that these other purchasable items, including potions are completely pointless for anyone looking to earn hearts through coms as you would never spend even a single com until you have all the past lives you need. Not to mention the fact that you basically "turn off" all but the best end rewards as well as they are in direct competition. Not an issue now because of "ghostbane" but when lists start looking a bit more interesting, there will be conflicts.

I agree that the com cost should come down or awarded coms should go up. Along with this, give us all very compelling things to spend our coms on other than hearts so we will actually be tempted to blow our coms on other items and they buy the heart in the store to speed us along. Turbine still makes their sales while enticing us to spend coms on other things in game. Everybody wins.

Teh_Troll
11-21-2013, 11:16 AM
Unless those alleged fixes include dramatically lowering both the Commendation of Valor and Karma cost, you're wasting everyone's time.

Well . . . I don't consider my time wasted if it means I can get off a few good trolls . . .

Ovrad
11-21-2013, 11:19 AM
No more easy buttons plz.

There's nothing challenging about farming CoV for a month to be allowed to grind ERs. It's just a waste of time.

Qhualor
11-21-2013, 11:20 AM
The devs even asked us if we think epic feats should be usable in heroics, and while a few of us were against it we were outnumbered by those who wanted it. This is also why the epic feats we got are on the weaker side, to balance for heroics. A very poor decision in my opinion. Since epic TR brings you to level 20 these really have no place in heroics.

Exactly. I have a lot more to say about it, but this isn't the thread for it. But I will say real quick i don't think the devs know what reincarnation actually means and of course players will want moar power. Its one of those things I always say "players don't always know what's best for the game".

SilkofDrasnia
11-21-2013, 11:30 AM
No more easy buttons plz.

Oh so you want to get rid of Epic Destinies altogether? I mean that is the biggest easy button in this game.

So sorry but when peeps start claiming "easy button" I just can't help but react like it is a doo000oomm post.

Kaytis
11-21-2013, 11:40 AM
The compelling thing about the game is advancement is it not? The feeling that one is making progress.

Making us grind 150 to 200 quests per toon per life so that we may once again start advancing is a really *really* poor idea.

There should be no significant cost to TR'ing. If the goal is to keep us playing the game, then don't throw roadblocks in the way. Let us play.

TR should be free and at will when we reach cap.

Drwaz99
11-21-2013, 11:42 AM
Varg essentially said exactly that. Seeds are used for hearts only. The other purchasable items such as potions are bought with coms so the character with the coms has to buy them. Heart seeds were created with two purposes. To ease up on bag storage and also to allow the coms to basically be bta but only for the purchase of hearts. To see anything other than this from the dev statement is to read it wrong.

However, it doesn't change the fact that these other purchasable items, including potions are completely pointless for anyone looking to earn hearts through coms as you would never spend even a single com until you have all the past lives you need. Not to mention the fact that you basically "turn off" all but the best end rewards as well as they are in direct competition. Not an issue now because of "ghostbane" but when lists start looking a bit more interesting, there will be conflicts.

I agree that the com cost should come down or awarded coms should go up. Along with this, give us all very compelling things to spend our coms on other than hearts so we will actually be tempted to blow our coms on other items and they buy the heart in the store to speed us along. Turbine still makes their sales while enticing us to spend coms on other things in game. Everybody wins.

I know he said that. But if they are going to claim this change is to ease storage issues, make them reverse convertible (like you can downgrade Greater Tokens to Regular Tokens). If Vcomms are going to be the "main" or a largely favored currency all this does is ease it for the time being. In a year, everyone who plays regularly is going to be back on the same boat, that there are so many stacks, not enough space.

This should be a easy implementation now. We need to get away from "We'll adjust it later". It's a half-assed way to do things, and as the past 7 years have shown, later is when they do another system revamp as the are always "more pressing issues"..

TL;DR: As I said, it's a band-aid fix for now, but long term it probably won't solve much if anything. If you disagree, I guess we'll just have to wait a year and see where we are at. History is on my side tho.

Loromir
11-21-2013, 11:51 AM
Price is still too high. Drop it to 32.

Potions are still useless.

Add CoV to Saga rewards.

Amazing...they tried to and people stood on a bridge.

Drwaz99
11-21-2013, 11:53 AM
Amazing...they tried to and people stood on a bridge.

Nice try to spin it. People stood on the bridge when Sagas were the only way to acquire them, not an additional way.

Totally different.

Kaytis
11-21-2013, 11:56 AM
I started playing in early 2010. Orien routinely had 4 to 6 instances of the market place at that time.

Last night, for the first time since I started playing, I stepped in to the *only* instance of the market place.

Stop making the game play so objectionable with poorly thought out decisions. You want more people playing right now, not less. Lower the cost of TR or eliminate it. Artificial and arbitrary barriers to advancement will drive even more people off.

TR was a brilliantly conceived system that kept people in the game and the LFMs full. Bravery bonus drove a stake in to the game's heart, and 4200 coms and 6000000 karma are going to cut its head off.

jakeelala
11-21-2013, 12:08 PM
I started playing in early 2010. Orien routinely had 4 to 6 instances of the market place at that time.

Last night, for the first time since I started playing, I stepped in to the *only* instance of the market place.

Stop making the game play so objectionable with poorly thought out decisions. You want more people playing right now, not less. Lower the cost of TR or eliminate it. Artificial and arbitrary barriers to advancement will drive even more people off.

TR was a brilliantly conceived system that kept people in the game and the LFMs full. Bravery bonus drove a stake in to the game's heart, and 4200 coms and 6000000 karma are going to cut its head off.

See my earlier post about people leaving game, squeezing a dying revenue model for last minute cash, and circling the drain.

Dendrix
11-21-2013, 12:45 PM
My Loot gems don't appear to be increasing the numbers of Commendations of Valor I get from end rewards, but they do increase the loot leel.

Can you change it so that I get more CoV from end rewards with a loot gem up.
A +1 loot gem should increase the effective quest level by 1 for CoV rewards
A +2 loot gem should increase the effective quest level by 2 for CoV rewards

Shorlong
11-21-2013, 12:46 PM
Wait wait wait wait. People are complaining about this still? I now have around 1,000 comms since last week, and I really haven't been trying. I've even taken a few other end rewards that weren't comms and I am doing just fine. People want it to be as easy as acquiring a Heroic heart...so they can rush to finish and have all EPL before the year is up...so that they can....do what exactly?

The number is fine where it is.

And as for the people complaining about the Karma cost....it takes 6.6 million to get to level cap...seems pretty easy to me to get your karma......Just level back up to cap and boom...you have your Karma.

Shorlong
11-21-2013, 12:47 PM
See my earlier post about people leaving game, squeezing a dying revenue model for last minute cash, and circling the drain.

See posts from the past four years saying the exact same thing....game isn't going anywhere.

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 12:48 PM
But as was pointed out in another thread, TRing shouldn't be a profit center. TRing should be a player retention tool. Trying to squeeze money out of the TR system is dangerous to the health of the game by reducing its effectiveness in retaining players.

That is a very real and meaningful reason why tring for free via minimal grind is something the devs should consider.

EDIT: Here's a link (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430993-A-better-way-for-DDO-to-monetize-Epic-Reincarnation) to that thread.Because more ways to play free are likely to keep the game around and development going? I'm more of the mind that as soon as someone at WB realizes that they could be making more by putting DDO's budget into making Bugs Bunny cartoons we all will be looking for a new game. Making sure that is never the case is what is driving the bean counters at Turbine. I really don't think epic TRing as a player retention tool would do them any good unless it somehow generated a lot of new interest in the game or the game basically shuts down new development and goes into maintenance mode.

darkly_dreaming
11-21-2013, 12:52 PM
Thank you for taking player concerns into consideration. In my opinion this going a good distance towards a reasonable compromise, though it may not be completely there yet.

Teh_Troll
11-21-2013, 12:55 PM
Wait wait wait wait. People are complaining about this still? I now have around 1,000 comms since last week, and I really haven't been trying. I've even taken a few other end rewards that weren't comms and I am doing just fine. People want it to be as easy as acquiring a Heroic heart...so they can rush to finish and have all EPL before the year is up...so that they can....do what exactly?

The number is fine where it is.

And as for the people complaining about the Karma cost....it takes 6.6 million to get to level cap...seems pretty easy to me to get your karma......Just level back up to cap and boom...you have your Karma.

better idea . .. don't ETR at all and spend my time/money on better games.

I've seen the light!

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 12:58 PM
LoL notice how this "fix" will also cause us to need to find room for yet another junk item in our bags!Let's see. I can put 1000 comms into my tiny bag, 1000 into my small bag and 2500 into my large bag. Or I can stack 1000 into one of them, crunching them into seeds when needed that can go into any of the three. I just saved a space and added the flexibility to keep everything in the same bag as well as stack past 4500 if I'm not in the mood to eTR when I get to that point. I also gained a way to transfer them between characters without making them add something else as a BTC mat for whatever it is they may want to use them for later on (some sort of gear upgrade or flagging mechanic would be my guess).

tiamat1985
11-21-2013, 01:10 PM
We’re aware of several topics of discussion relating to Commendations of Valor. As players get more time with Update 20, we’ll be keeping an eye on how Commendations of Valor are working out and will consider possible changes. We have identified two issues that we feel we can address sooner rather than later:

1. Bind-to-Character: Earning Hearts of Wood via multiple Characters
Commendations of Valor are an Epic Ingredient that are Bind-to-Character, because we plan to use them for lots of different reward types. However, this puts extra strain on players who are earning Hearts of wood by playing many different characters, or who may have one character earning Commendations in lower levels while another character is already at the level cap. We’d like to address this to give additional options to these players while still allowing us flexibility for reward items we offer through Commendations in the future.

2. Commendations of Valor and Bag Space
The number of Commendations of Valor received scales heavily across different character levels, which means it’s challenging to simply reduce the amounts of Commendations bestowed, or the costs for Hearts of Wood, without consequence for characters of different level. However, this was not intended to put stress on bag space, so we’d like to address that too.


Introducing: Heart Seeds
We’re adding a new, entirely optional ingredient relating to Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood called “Heart Seeds”. This new ingredient adds some complications, but we felt those complications were worth it in order to address the above issues.

Heart Seeds:
Stacks of these precious seeds can be combined to form Iconic or Epic Hearts of Wood.
Purchasable with Commendations of Valor, these seeds are Bound to Account (unlike Commendations of Valor), allowing you to get hearts of wood by pooling resources from multiple characters.
Bound to Account items are tradable to your other characters through the Shared Bank.


https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/HeartSeeds.jpg

Notes:
You can obtain 1 Heart Seed by turning 100 Commendations of Valor.
You can obtain either one Iconic True Heart of Wood or one Epic Heart of Wood by turning in 42 Heart Seeds.
You can still obtain either of those Hearts of Wood by turning in 4200 Commendations of Valor. You can safely ignore Heart Seeds if the above issues don’t affect you.
Heart Seeds are currently only obtainable through the barter interface associated with Commendations of Valor.
Heart Seeds can only be used to purchase Iconic True Hearts of Wood or Epic Hearts of Wood. In particular, they cannot be used to buy the potions that Commendations of Valor can be used for.
You cannot turn Heart Seeds back into Commendations of Valor.


Thanks for your feedback on Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.

4200 Commendations will be a not so high number after this "fix"!
I was one of the first to be upset by that number but now i see that just right. In the next future, when cap will be 30, that number could become even low, imho.

rest
11-21-2013, 01:12 PM
4200 Commendations will be a not so high number after this "fix"!
I was one of the first to be upset by that number but now i see that just right. In the next future, when cap will be 30, that number could become even low, imho.

Uuuhh.... they didn't change the number of CoVs required, they just allow you to crunch them down into a different form of currency. It's still just as high as it's ever been.

onivedlav
11-21-2013, 01:17 PM
The cost of epic hearts needs to be cut in half.
I ETR the day it was released, with store bought heart, thinking i would be able to get the comms i needed once i reached cap again.
Well to my disappointment in 2 days i was cap and with 1700 comms. 2500 short of what i need! Now it's a pointless grind. I'm stuck playing a maxed out toon that doesn't need anything except Epic PL.

Cut the price of Hearts to 2200 Commendations. For the average player that's weeks of farm! Are you selling that many hearts on store? I bought one, and I regret it, for contributing to this messed up system.

Leclaire1
11-21-2013, 01:21 PM
Like everyone, I think the addition of the heart seeds is a step in the right direction. Storage is a bad problem currently, compounded by the stupid and annoying BTCoE trend (please change to BTAoE for greatest flexibility), and not being able to fit stuff in bags alone is an incredible annoyance. As such, this solves a significant problem

Unlike others, I don't necessarily think the 6 mil destroys the game for all- I just think it limits play-styles significantly, which is not a good thing. For those that do a lot of heroic Tring or go for completionist, the karma isn't much of a problem. The same is probably the case for those that want to do ITRs. On my main, for instance, if I want arcane epic Pls I'll just Tr into an arcane and run the epic levels in the arcane sphere. This does solve the problem of running **** EDs for the PL- if you are willing to TR from 1-28 every time, or 15-28 on an iconic followed by relevant ETRs. However, if you want to stay in certain classes on HTR, or do exclusively ETR, then this system does create all the frustrations prophesied by those here on the forums.

At the end of the day, I think this is still an unfortunate outcome. The brilliance of the new three-pronged TR system is that it offers a LOT more options about how you build and level a character. One can do mostly heroic TRs towards that completionist path, do mostly epic TRs if they like staying epic and keeping favor and raid flags, and iconic if they want to jump into the endgame sooner with a new alt and still have high level TR paths to follow. Alternatively, one could have endless fun pursuing all of these ends three times on an uber-toon. This should add brilliant flexibility to the game, and open up all sorts of new paths. The problem with this system is that it then discourages at least the pure ETR option and thus kills the flexibility it was supposed to create.

Consider two toons of mine, my main and my original toon who is my raid healer and an offensive caster cleric. My main will do lots of heroic Tring towards completionist, and will have the option of running in relevant spheres up to TRs in lives which are benefited from a lot of different spheres. Also, as a primary melee toon with a specialist kick, there are decent destinies in each sphere to run on any life (Fatesinger isn't awesome for melees, but it isn't totally useless, and Sentinel is good even on a melee life for a Divine PL). For my main the system works quite well, because of how I choose to level her.

Yet for my cleric, ETR is sort of a tantalizing option that is revealed to be a bit of a charlatan. Prior to U20, I had no plans to develop him, as HTR didn't seem worth the cost of resetting all his raid flags and grinding out another life. Also, I hate running clerics in the low levels, so even if I wanted to pay that cost it wasn't worth it. U20 seemed to be a dream come true as it seemed to offer him new options. If I could stomach losing my favor and flags along with turning the good dwarf into an elf for a few lives, I could make him an iconic while avoiding low level cleric play, which is still an option. But ETR seemed to be the best option, because I can gain all sorts of nice things without every losing my raid flags or going below epic. For the Divine PLs there is no problem- I can simply run in EA for casting and Sentinel for healing and gain some decent perks. Yet I'd love to get more spell criticals. The only problem with this is I'd have to run 8 epic levels entirely in a super gimpy arcane destiny. This would be unpalatable, and make my running not fun, and not benefit the parties I'm running in. I might as well just lose all ED experience, because I'll be playing as if I have. As such, I'll probably hit a dead end with him once I finish my divine PLs, as it won't be worth it to gain the others if it means running as a cleric in divine PLs. The system as such seems to have so much promise, but is cut short by these restrictions.

At Gen Con Glin said that the ddo team prides itself on allowing the most diverse character customization of any mmo. And he is right, most of us play this game and not others because of the options we have in building our toons. It'd be a tragedy if the Turbine team put in so much work to add options and was cut short in practice by requirements like the 6 mil karma. As such, I think the suggested compromise of 2.2 mil is a reasonable option. It's still give a nice advantage to toons like my main who could always be running in a useful ED, but not be so steep as to discourage my cleric from progressing in less than ideal PLs. He'll be able to handle running lvls 20-23 in a less than ideal ED for a good cause, but running in one all the way up to cap is prohibitively painful.

onivedlav
11-21-2013, 01:24 PM
4200 Commendations will be a not so high number after this "fix"!
I was one of the first to be upset by that number but now i see that just right. In the next future, when cap will be 30, that number could become even low, imho.

Level cap 30 is stil one year away or more. Just how much more content do you think will be released? And how many comms will it give? 80 comms each quest on EE? Don't forget the ransack penalty when you do your math.

Even if they they get easier to get in the future, we're just not there yet!

They reduce the TR timer to 3 Days and make it impossible to get a heart in 3 days, unless of course $$$$!

Hendrik
11-21-2013, 01:25 PM
Price is still too high. Drop it to 32.

Potions are still useless.

Add CoV to Saga rewards.

This!

Add CoV to Saga rewards and I think the cost will be just fine if a "fair" number from the Saga can be obtained.

We are running the Quests for Saga's anyways, why not add them back in to that reward list.

Healemup
11-21-2013, 01:29 PM
Uuuhh.... they didn't change the number of CoVs required, they just allow you to crunch them down into a different form of currency. It's still just as high as it's ever been.

Except now they made it so that multiple characters can earn them, so it effectively made it easier for most people. There are some, I suppose who only run one and/ or only collect them for a single one, but they are likely the exception.

onivedlav
11-21-2013, 01:31 PM
better idea . .. don't ETR at all and spend my time/money on better games.

I've seen the light!

After years of daily playing, I'm almost at that point.
Not sure about better games. But at least one that i don't care so much about and have invested so much. A game should be relaxing and fun, lately it just makes me mad.

Pooklebunny
11-21-2013, 01:33 PM
Hjeal meh.

Bah. Now say it like you mean it, sell-out!


:p

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 01:57 PM
The compelling thing about the game is advancement is it not? The feeling that one is making progress.

Making us grind 150 to 200 quests per toon per life so that we may once again start advancing is a really *really* poor idea.

There should be no significant cost to TR'ing. If the goal is to keep us playing the game, then don't throw roadblocks in the way. Let us play.

TR should be free and at will when we reach cap.So, where do they make their money? Subscriptions are optional, content is one and done, cosmetics are not needed.

Do you think people who waffle over spending a few bucks to avoid the comm grind are going to spend even more to avoid part of the much smaller xp grind? Maybe so, despite how little sense that makes (~$50 for Otto's stone to cut out 2 million xp in grind as opposed to ~$15 to cut out 6-8 million xp equivalent worth of comm grind at cap).

LrdSlvrhnd
11-21-2013, 02:07 PM
Notes:
You can obtain 1 Heart Seed by turning 100 Commendations of Valor.
You can obtain either one Iconic True Heart of Wood or one Epic Heart of Wood by turning in 42 Heart Seeds.
You cannot turn Heart Seeds back into Commendations of Valor.


This is pretty much exactly what I was asking for in an earlier post wanting a mechanic similar to tokens/token fragments.




Heart Seeds:
Purchasable with Commendations of Valor, these seeds are Bound to Account (unlike Commendations of Valor), allowing you to get hearts of wood by pooling resources from multiple characters.
[/list]

THIS just makes it even awesomer! Question: Will Heart Seeds be able to be placed inside bags?


Thanks for your feedback on Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.

Thanks for doing something with our feedback!

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 02:22 PM
Wait wait wait wait. People are complaining about this still? I now have around 1,000 comms since last week, and I really haven't been trying. I've even taken a few other end rewards that weren't comms and I am doing just fine. People want it to be as easy as acquiring a Heroic heart...so they can rush to finish and have all EPL before the year is up...so that they can....do what exactly?

The number is fine where it is.I agree with this. Personally my plan is to just play the game. When I get to 4.2k comms I'll eTR, rush to get back to the level I need for my gear (I suck, so that's not all that high) then just play till I'm at 4.2k again. ED's cover most of my generic power, so leveling into the gear is the only real concern in the whole process. How long this takes per cycle doesn't really matter as game play is pretty much the same regardless.


And as for the people complaining about the Karma cost....it takes 6.6 million to get to level cap...seems pretty easy to me to get your karma......Just level back up to cap and boom...you have your Karma.Here I'm going to have to disagree. Because 6 million arcane karma earned by playing in an arcane destiny to get an arcane PLF on a melee character is a lot different than a token 2 million arcane karma in an arcane destiny, with the balance spent in a destiny I enjoy playing in. I don't mind even huge grinds if it's playing a character I enjoy playing. Make the game less fun to play all the time and I start questioning why I bother to log in at all.

bbqzor
11-21-2013, 02:24 PM
We’re aware of several topics of discussion relating to Commendations of Valor. As players get more time with Update 20, we’ll be keeping an eye on how Commendations of Valor are working out and will consider possible changes. We have identified two issues that we feel we can address sooner rather than later:

1. Bind-to-Character: Earning Hearts of Wood via multiple Characters
Commendations of Valor are an Epic Ingredient that are Bind-to-Character, because we plan to use them for lots of different reward types. However, this puts extra strain on players who are earning Hearts of wood by playing many different characters, or who may have one character earning Commendations in lower levels while another character is already at the level cap. We’d like to address this to give additional options to these players while still allowing us flexibility for reward items we offer through Commendations in the future.

2. Commendations of Valor and Bag Space
The number of Commendations of Valor received scales heavily across different character levels, which means it’s challenging to simply reduce the amounts of Commendations bestowed, or the costs for Hearts of Wood, without consequence for characters of different level. However, this was not intended to put stress on bag space, so we’d like to address that too.

Introducing: Heart Seeds
We’re adding a new, entirely optional ingredient relating to Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood called “Heart Seeds”. This new ingredient adds some complications, but we felt those complications were worth it in order to address the above issues.

Heart Seeds:
Stacks of these precious seeds can be combined to form Iconic or Epic Hearts of Wood.
Purchasable with Commendations of Valor, these seeds are Bound to Account (unlike Commendations of Valor), allowing you to get hearts of wood by pooling resources from multiple characters.
Bound to Account items are tradable to your other characters through the Shared Bank.

Notes:
You can obtain 1 Heart Seed by turning 100 Commendations of Valor.
You can obtain either one Iconic True Heart of Wood or one Epic Heart of Wood by turning in 42 Heart Seeds.
You can still obtain either of those Hearts of Wood by turning in 4200 Commendations of Valor. You can safely ignore Heart Seeds if the above issues don’t affect you.
Heart Seeds are currently only obtainable through the barter interface associated with Commendations of Valor.
Heart Seeds can only be used to purchase Iconic True Hearts of Wood or Epic Hearts of Wood. In particular, they cannot be used to buy the potions that Commendations of Valor can be used for.
You cannot turn Heart Seeds back into Commendations of Valor.

Thanks for your feedback on Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.

This is a good solution for a compromise between what you (devs) are set on doing and what we (players) are telling you is actually live-able and playable. However it does leave a few loose ends, so to speak.

1) Will Seeds be convertible back into Valors? I ask because you are explicitly operating under the pretense of adding future things to spend them on. It would be devastating to convert all your current valors into seeds for a few weeks/months, then have a new thing come out, and need to re-grind all your currency to spend it on something else because its been forcibly "banked" in seeds. Basically, having incremental buy-ins for Hearts is great, but only if you can back out to change directions if you so choose. If we cannot do that, then the only safe course of action is to simply play with out converting until we are ready to buy the full heart... which very much destroys the "bag space" purpose of this change.

2) The above point highlights that if they are convertible in reverse, that effectively makes Valors BTA. Which is why I suspect you will tell me that the answer "theyre not reversible". Which is, as I point out, extremely unsatisfactory.

3) I will again request they simply be made BTA. I know you won't do it, but I can not think of any reason why its unbalancing to do so. Either way, we, as human persons, are playing a character through the content. If we are able to get one guy leveled/geared/etc to complete it, it stands to reason we could do so again. Which actual character is run becomes semantic (barring the obvious cases of quest flags, raid completions, btc loot, etc). For whatever future thing you want Valors to be BTC for... consider just adding a bit that *IS* BTC for that use, and let Valors be the currency portion. For example, if later you want some purchase to require a specific character to complete a thing on Epic Elite to do it, have EE offer an item on the npc reward list (with a 100% chance of being there... no one wants to be unlucky trying to get it to appear) which is used in the combine, and problem solved.

4) Binding issues aside... it is my suspicion that you have chosen the 4200 number not because it fits any model now, but because it fits a future model when we are required to go all the way to lv30 before using Epic/Iconic TRs. As such, it is very difficult now, hence the large majority of people saying the numbers are too high. Two points:

A) If this is the case, why not just tell us this, instead of skirting the issue and irritating your player base. It stands to reason you have designed it so quest level affects rewards, future quests will have to go to 30 (or 32 on EE) meaning that the best way to get Valor isnt even released yet. With all the future-proof thinking you have exhibited (ie, Valor being used for all kinds of things, quest level being a factor, etc) it is impossible this was lost on you. Why have we not been informed?

B) If that is not the case, 4200 *is* too high and needs to be reduced. I have seen numbers from 2000-4000 touted, but all of them are in agreement that we need a reduction. And further more, why was future rate-of-gain not considered? It should have been, and we should have been told about how it will fit in, so we could adjust our expectations. Right now, those expectations are "its almost unplayable because the requirements are too high". (There was also the storage/binding issue for hearts, which seeds address so I'm considering that facet solved for hearts, but not for Valors as per above with reversible issues).

Hopefully this critique is constructive and you have time to reply, but in any event thanks for taking the time to read. It would be nice to finally have one decent stable "questing currency" after something like a dozen aborted attempts which have all been left to languish in faulted obscurity. I hope, even if it goes unanswered, this can at least contribute to that nice future. Cheers.

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 02:27 PM
Uuuhh.... they didn't change the number of CoVs required, they just allow you to crunch them down into a different form of currency. It's still just as high as it's ever been.Except it goes from 4200/character to 4200/account. So, depending on play style, this can be seen as a significant change.

Kaytis
11-21-2013, 02:28 PM
So, where do they make their money? Subscriptions are optional, content is one and done, cosmetics are not needed.

Do you think people who waffle over spending a few bucks to avoid the comm grind are going to spend even more to avoid part of the much smaller xp grind? Maybe so, despite how little sense that makes (~$50 for Otto's stone to cut out 2 million xp in grind as opposed to ~$15 to cut out 6-8 million xp equivalent worth of comm grind at cap).

They can make their money selling cosmetics, monster manuals, tomes of learning, xp pots, stat tomes, bank space, augments, adventure packs, premium races and classes, and yes even the dreaded expansion packs. But they will make no money if players leave because they aren't making any progress. This is my fundamental point. If the game isn't rewarding, and by rewarding I do specifically mean that feeling of advancement, then people will leave. People who leave don't buy anything.

There are things that are smart and appealing to sell -content, fluff, features, even advancement. There are things that are dumb to sell -chief among these are tools to remove arbitrary obstacles to advancement. This is sigils of leveling all over again. It's an ill-conceived paywall that is guaranteed to drive people off and will not bring one new player to the game.

Vargouille
11-21-2013, 02:31 PM
This is pretty much exactly what I was asking for in an earlier post wanting a mechanic similar to tokens/token fragments.


THIS just makes it even awesomer! Question: Will Heart Seeds be able to be placed inside bags?


Thanks for doing something with our feedback!

Yes, Heart Seeds can go into ingredient bags.

redspecter23
11-21-2013, 02:51 PM
3) I will again request they simply be made BTA. I know you won't do it, but I can not think of any reason why its unbalancing to do so. Either way, we, as human persons, are playing a character through the content. If we are able to get one guy leveled/geared/etc to complete it, it stands to reason we could do so again. Which actual character is run becomes semantic (barring the obvious cases of quest flags, raid completions, btc loot, etc). For whatever future thing you want Valors to be BTC for... consider just adding a bit that *IS* BTC for that use, and let Valors be the currency portion. For example, if later you want some purchase to require a specific character to complete a thing on Epic Elite to do it, have EE offer an item on the npc reward list (with a 100% chance of being there... no one wants to be unlucky trying to get it to appear) which is used in the combine, and problem solved.



I think this is a bit of a sticking point for the devs now. They have shown that they are fine with the hearts being bta as they were upon implmentation. They are now fine with the coms being bta (for purposes of buying hearts) as shown from this new change. The only thing they don't want us doing is using this new "currency" to buy "things" for our alts. The problem is, we don't know what these "things" are and many of us probably also don't care about the coms being used as a currency for anything other than hearts. They could simply create another new btc currency for all these new things they have planned and keep coms for hearts only and have them bta. I suppose we're meant to be completely WOWED by the new "things" that we know nothing about and be willing to spend our extremely hard earned coms on them instead of on epic TR. If we end up doing that, then we'll all be buying our hearts from the store and spending our coms on "things", which might be exactly what Turbine wants. Perhaps these coms were never really meant for hearts at all but for whatever the new system of items and upgrades that is on the horizon which we have little to no info on, but that the devs are adamantly pushing as a btc barter type system for coms.

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 03:02 PM
Level cap 30 is stil one year away or more. Just how much more content do you think will be released? And how many comms will it give? 80 comms each quest on EE? Don't forget the ransack penalty when you do your math.(32-17)*5=75, So 75 would be the number if they continue following the current formula. Ransack penalty doesn't factor into the math as any ransack penalty means you don't get any at all.

EllisDee37
11-21-2013, 03:03 PM
The only thing they don't want us doing is using this new "currency" to buy "things" for our alts. The problem is, we don't know what these "things" are and many of us probably also don't care about the coms being used as a currency for anything other than hearts.I get the impression they want to use valor as the currency for upgrading the level 30 endgame raid loot, similar to how commendations of heroism upgraded the endgame raid loot when the cap was 25. Based on the crazy price of hearts, though, I worry that such a system will be untenable in terms of storage. Something like 1000 comms to upgrade to tier 1, 2000 to tier 2, 4000 to tier 3 and 8000 to tier 4 or something crazy like that.

Cyr
11-21-2013, 03:13 PM
There are things that are smart and appealing to sell -content, fluff, features, even advancement. There are things that are dumb to sell -chief among these are tools to remove arbitrary obstacles to advancement. This is sigils of leveling all over again. It's an ill-conceived paywall that is guaranteed to drive people off and will not bring one new player to the game.

Great post.

The number one thing Turbine needs is to keep players playing.

TR was an important mechanic for that reason. It gave people an incentive to keep playing the game while Turbine struggled to bring out more endgame content.

With the current endgame situation being the worst I have experienced in DDO's history due to a variety of poor design choices ER and Iconc TR Is needed even more then TR was back in the day.

Yet Turbine these systems have been implemented in a manner which seriously detracts from this primary goal critical to retaining customers.

In very basic terms there are two basic types of issues with Turbine's implementation here. First, is trying to monetize the ER process directly by making the comm drop rate and method poor making store purchases more likely. You make more money on heart sales this way in the short term, but you gut the effectiveness of the system serving as an effective method of retaining players. Second, the reward is very small for ER. That is a huge deal also as the TR rewards were on the weak side with some exceptions and these are even weaker compared to current character power. Rewards have to be compelling to serve as an effective means of keeping people playing.

Oxarhamar
11-21-2013, 03:20 PM
I think this is a bit of a sticking point for the devs now. They have shown that they are fine with the hearts being bta as they were upon implmentation. They are now fine with the coms being bta (for purposes of buying hearts) as shown from this new change. The only thing they don't want us doing is using this new "currency" to buy "things" for our alts. The problem is, we don't know what these "things" are and many of us probably also don't care about the coms being used as a currency for anything other than hearts. They could simply create another new btc currency for all these new things they have planned and keep coms for hearts only and have them bta. I suppose we're meant to be completely WOWED by the new "things" that we know nothing about and be willing to spend our extremely hard earned coms on them instead of on epic TR. If we end up doing that, then we'll all be buying our hearts from the store and spending our coms on "things", which might be exactly what Turbine wants. Perhaps these coms were never really meant for hearts at all but for whatever the new system of items and upgrades that is on the horizon which we have little to no info on, but that the devs are adamantly pushing as a btc barter type system for coms.

not ANOTHER currency don't we have enough different currency / crafting systems / ingredients/ collectables... my bags are cry now

redspecter23
11-21-2013, 03:23 PM
I get the impression they want to use valor as the currency for upgrading the level 30 endgame raid loot, similar to how commendations of heroism upgraded the endgame raid loot when the cap was 25. Based on the crazy price of hearts, though, I worry that such a system will be untenable in terms of storage. Something like 1000 comms to upgrade to tier 1, 2000 to tier 2, 4000 to tier 3 and 8000 to tier 4 or something crazy like that.

That's my first thought as well. They can't use old coms of heroism anymore due to the recent exploit so they needed to be phased out. These new coms could fill the role of upgrade widget for new raid gear. I'm hoping that isn't the case as it would make it even harder to justify spending the coms on an in game heart if the only way I can upgrade my raid loot is with those same coms.

I'm not necessarily against giving Turbine money. I just have very little interest in paying $12 each time I want to ETR for such a small relative gain. I don't think that each individual past life is worth $12 as well as the time investment to earn myself back to level 28. Others have different monetary thresholds. I get that, but this one is something I just won't pay for repeatedly. For myself, the option of buying a heart from the store isn't appealing if I have to do it 3 out of every 4 ETR's. I'll ETR if I have the coms for it or just ignore it until I do. It turns the game into a grindfest to get the proper items needed to save money on a TR.

redspecter23
11-21-2013, 03:25 PM
not ANOTHER currency don't we have enough different currency / crafting systems / ingredients/ collectables... my bags are cry now

Well if not for the exploit, they wouldn't have had to retire a number of current currencies. Another one on the pile of 5000 we already have isn't going to break me on bank space. It's when they add some new crafting system that has 10 - 100 new unique ingredients that messes with my head... and my bag space. Knowing about that exploit, I'm somewhat surprised that this new currency even takes the form of a physical item and not just another currency counter along with copper/silver/gold/plat/AS. If the coms were always going to be btc and be a large number in the thousands, they might as well have just added it there and limited the effect of another duping exploit down the road. It also would have made the whole storage issue irrelevant.

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 03:31 PM
They can make their money selling cosmetics, monster manuals, tomes of learning, xp pots, stat tomes, bank space, augments, adventure packs, premium races and classes, and yes even the dreaded expansion packs. But they will make no money if players leave because they aren't making any progress. This is my fundamental point. If the game isn't rewarding, and by rewarding I do specifically mean that feeling of advancement, then people will leave. People who leave don't buy anything.Most of that stuff is one and done stuff that needs an 8 year old game to attract enough new players that stay around long enough to buy them in order to be useful. The rest of us already have all that, much of it had from the 750ish TP's they give us for favor every free heroic TR we do (anyone who thinks they are doing us a favor by letting us keep our favor with epic TR's has another think coming, it's to not repeat the mistake they made by resetting the TP treadmill with heroic TR).


There are things that are smart and appealing to sell -content, fluff, features, even advancement. There are things that are dumb to sell -chief among these are tools to remove arbitrary obstacles to advancement. This is sigils of leveling all over again. It's an ill-conceived paywall that is guaranteed to drive people off and will not bring one new player to the game.Nothing short of a major overhaul is likely to bring in the number of new people an 8 year old game would need to keep things going using a build an account method. While the game may not make money off players that leave, none of us will be playing if the game doesn't make enough money to justify giving it a budget at all. We just saw what sort of expansion pack they can afford to release on the sort of budget they are given. I doubt many are going to be willing to buy another.

We have to deal with reality and the reality is that this game doesn't have the player base to spread the costs out over and expect to get by any way except by many of us being willing to drop ~$13 every other eTR or so or finding a way to get most of us to choose to pay monthly.

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 03:50 PM
I think this is a bit of a sticking point for the devs now. They have shown that they are fine with the hearts being bta as they were upon implmentation. They are now fine with the coms being bta (for purposes of buying hearts) as shown from this new change. The only thing they don't want us doing is using this new "currency" to buy "things" for our alts. The problem is, we don't know what these "things" are and many of us probably also don't care about the coms being used as a currency for anything other than hearts. They could simply create another new btc currency for all these new things they have planned and keep coms for hearts only and have them bta.Except that would make it so these new "things" wouldn't be in direct competition with hearts for those comms. If these new "things" turn out to be gear upgrades or some sort of flag that isn't sold in the store, another form of currency won't get players to buy hearts in order to save their comms for the new things they can't buy.

Gremmlynn
11-21-2013, 04:05 PM
The number one thing Turbine needs is to keep players playing.This may have been the case when Turbine was an independent company. Now, the most important thing is to meet earnings expectations and if that means lowering them by dumping under performing games, so be it. IMO keeping customers around wont do anything for the game. Keeping them around and buying at least a notable portion of their TR hearts or convincing many more to pay monthly is their only hope of meeting the expectations they have to.

bbqzor
11-21-2013, 04:29 PM
I think this is a bit of a sticking point for the devs now. They have shown that they are fine with the hearts being bta as they were upon implmentation. They are now fine with the coms being bta (for purposes of buying hearts) as shown from this new change. The only thing they don't want us doing is using this new "currency" to buy "things" for our alts.
This is exactly their perceived problem: they don't want players to have a choice of who to purchase upgrades for. I say perceived problem, because its incredibly easy to eliminate. Just put a required bit in the end reward list with a 100% drop rate, and any character wishing to purchase said thing will be required to complete said content. The rest of the balance of purchase (ie, how many completions needed, how much time should be invested, etc... all the other balance concerns that go into using any form of currency) are the same regardless of character used.

And before any person/dev says "its not the same for any character, some can farm faster than others"... so what? Is the intent to penalize people playing non-farm-oriented toons with forcibly slower progression? All humans playing this game have the choice of rolling up some super farm build (like a pal2/sor18 bladeforge shiradi or whatever)... level the playing field. Don't punish people for avoiding flavor of the month speed run builds. People can only advance Valors by questing, let them quest on whatever fits the LFMs that day, or whatever their Guild Group needs when they log in, or whatever character they personally prefer. This is basically like making Platinum bind to character... earning money only on a single character is silly, it pushes people to play single characters rather than multiples, and to play speed run builds rather than a diverse selection.

People already have to earn Karma to Epic TR, which is per character no matter how Valors work, and Hearts are already effectively BTA with the Seed changes. TR'ing is covered: you'll have to play that character for the xp, and any character can contribute to the Heart. This is about having the currency available for those "Future Things", without being forced to completely ignore the current Heart system to avoid penalizing yourself if you want to use "Future Things".

Since you can get Valors from any current quest, it stands to reason that you could get whatever "Future Thing" they add by doing current (or in the future, old) content. So it doesn't seem to be a "must play the new thing 100x" issue. Its just a "must play a specific character 100 hours" issue. What point does forcing people to log in one character for a set amount of time before upgrading have to do with anything? Rhetorical question perhaps, but until we see the "Future Things" its going to be a major inconvenience at best and a sever detractor to enjoyment at worst. As I had mentioned, I know they won't change it now because they will want to release the "Future Things" first so we can see what they are; and so Turbine can measure peoples responses... only then will they adjust anything if they feel necessary. But avoiding this one point doesn't address the others:
- Can seeds be un-converted? If so, just make Valor BTA.
- Was it balanced to lv30? If so, why not tell us.
- If not, why not, and how will that affect things in the future?

SilkofDrasnia
11-21-2013, 04:36 PM
Let's see. I can put 1000 comms into my tiny bag, 1000 into my small bag and 2500 into my large bag. Or I can stack 1000 into one of them, crunching them into seeds when needed that can go into any of the three. I just saved a space and added the flexibility to keep everything in the same bag as well as stack past 4500 if I'm not in the mood to eTR when I get to that point. I also gained a way to transfer them between characters without making them add something else as a BTC mat for whatever it is they may want to use them for later on (some sort of gear upgrade or flagging mechanic would be my guess).

Except:


I think this is a bit of a sticking point for the devs now. They have shown that they are fine with the hearts being bta as they were upon implmentation. They are now fine with the coms being bta (for purposes of buying hearts) as shown from this new change. The only thing they don't want us doing is using this new "currency" to buy "things" for our alts. The problem is, we don't know what these "things" are and many of us probably also don't care about the coms being used as a currency for anything other than hearts. They could simply create another new btc currency for all these new things they have planned and keep coms for hearts only and have them bta. I suppose we're meant to be completely WOWED by the new "things" that we know nothing about and be willing to spend our extremely hard earned coms on them instead of on epic TR. If we end up doing that, then we'll all be buying our hearts from the store and spending our coms on "things", which might be exactly what Turbine wants. Perhaps these coms were never really meant for hearts at all but for whatever the new system of items and upgrades that is on the horizon which we have little to no info on, but that the devs are adamantly pushing as a btc barter type system for coms.


Except that would make it so these new "things" wouldn't be in direct competition with hearts for those comms. If these new "things" turn out to be gear upgrades or some sort of flag that isn't sold in the store, another form of currency won't get players to buy hearts in order to save their comms for the new things they can't buy.

Except we would then be needing to gather both types thus more junk in our bags. Like I said this change is designed to make us buy hearts from the store and use up more bag space.

If they want to replace heroic coms just replace them already instead of these involuted shenanigans.

redspecter23
11-21-2013, 06:39 PM
Except that would make it so these new "things" wouldn't be in direct competition with hearts for those comms. If these new "things" turn out to be gear upgrades or some sort of flag that isn't sold in the store, another form of currency won't get players to buy hearts in order to save their comms for the new things they can't buy.

That's exactly my point.

/places tinfoil hat firmly on head

So Turbine puts all sorts of effort into coms of valor and the epic and iconic TR system. Eventually, they relent enough that players are at least somewhat happy with the results. Com turn in rates are seen as high by many and out of whack with the original dev posted intent. We eventually adapt and perhaps they even lower the cost to cheers from the players.

A few months pass

A new raid is released... with many cheers from the players. An upgrade system is put in place that allows you to use coms of valor for upgrades. This turns out to be the only way to upgrade the items. Players start using their stashed coms for upgrades and then have nothing left for epic TR. They are then encouraged to go to the DDO store for hearts. Our com rate remains the same, however we are now given more uses for those coms. And maybe this was Turbine's plan all along. The TR system was just a diversion. Coms were always meant for these other upgrades and we're met with a virtual bait and switch for the TR system. The costs are effectively increased and we've all been fooled. This is the only explanation I can come up with for their adamant refusal to go with bta coms. This additional use (or something similar) was planned from the start and btc coms were a necessity to make it work. The hearts and coms used for hearts are now essentially completely bta so the heart use has no bearing on the binding status of the coms any more.

It's similar to how coms of heroism worked. At first, you needed them ONLY for the new red and green armor. And the drop rate was poor, but it was ok because they only had one minor use and you might need at most 3 per toon. Then Turbine found their "mistake" regarding weapon upgrades and now you needed 3 per weapon, in addition to the new Antipode which was added. OK, it's getting tougher to get the coms needed but still doable. Then they add a couple upgrade tiers on the weapons at 5 and 7 coms while increasing drop rates by a small amount. With only CitW to play, we're starting to get a serious shortage of coms. FoT was added later with a much higher com rate, but CitW was never touched again. They increased the demand for coms over time without increasing the rate of acquisition in CitW to match. I worry a similar situation may be in store with coms of valor. They will continue to add additional uses for them without increasing our potential rate of acquisition, which narrows down what we end up using them on. If we feel that the cost of hearts is high right now, imagine if you also have to use those same coms for other essential uses later like loot upgrades.

Don't even get me started on what may happen a few years down the road. Our characters get better and we start breezing through quests faster and faster. Suddenly, we are actually acquiring coms of valor faster than "intended" though completely within the rules of the game. History shows us how they will deal with this. The same way they tried to deal with players having too many tokens of the twelve. They attempted to completely abandon the old speedy system with a new one that would take 10 times as long for the same result. Players were not pleased. I wonder if Turbine has planned for the future with coms of valor the same way. Are we inevitably headed toward a nerf or new system for epic TR a few years from now when, through the normal course of player advancement, we start collecting "too fast" for Turbine?

RD2play
11-21-2013, 06:51 PM
Great news ! thanks for listening :)

XxJFGxX
11-21-2013, 08:20 PM
Karma is still too high.

Number of seeds is too high.

And now I not only have Comms taking up inventory space, but yet another item taking up bag space.

I really can't understand why people are liking this at all.

Instead of introducing another type of ingredient, wouldn't it make sense to make the comms BtA and lowering the costs for hearts using comms of valor?

redspecter23
11-21-2013, 09:14 PM
Instead of introducing another type of ingredient, wouldn't it make sense to make the comms BtA and lowering the costs for hearts using comms of valor?

They could do exactly that, except they have mysterious plans for other things for us to spend our coms on and whatever that mysterious thing is, it's quite important for them that we not be able to buy it for alts. It appears to me that they are jumping through hoops so that they can make this mysterious thing happen. Whatever it is, it's trumping functionality for both coms of valor and hearts of wood so I'd imagine that the devs feel it's pretty important for the game. Until we know exactly what this mysterious thing is that's so important that is uses the same system as epic and iconic hearts, it's hard to judge whether it's a good idea or not. Some speculation is that coms will be used for item upgrades, perhaps new raid gear or upgrading from EN to EH or EE items, but that's mostly speculation.

As much as I dislike the idea of new systems and new ingredients, I think that epic and iconic reincarnation deserve their own system and currency and shouldn't be lumped in together with much more than a few minor extras like the already introduced pots to give a use for coms for people that have no interest in TR or will just buy the hearts anyway. Lumping another major system into this one is something that I can only see as troublesome.

Thrudh
11-21-2013, 09:16 PM
better idea . .. don't ETR at all and spend my time/money on better games.

Let me know if you find any... DDO is still the best MMO out there.

Thrudh
11-21-2013, 09:17 PM
A game should be relaxing and fun, lately it just makes me mad.

You can control that yourself. You can make THIS game relaxing and fun, if you so choose.

"Moderation in all things."

slarden
11-21-2013, 09:30 PM
Thank you for the continued evolution/progress of the epic reincarnation system.

The cost seems high to me as a mostly EH player while leveling, but it's too early for me to say for sure. An EN player can't acquire a heart reasonably and shouldn't bother trying unless they buy it from the DDO store.

Nascoe
11-22-2013, 01:41 AM
You can control that yourself. You can make THIS game relaxing and fun, if you so choose.

"Moderation in all things."

Indeed, I cannot imagine doing a game and "grinding" my way through the whole of it only to find I did all the content, have all the completions and am now the most powerfull character with all the right gear - but I had no fun doing it and now I don't know what to play with the character because I feel sick "having" to do the same content over again.

Just play the game, do quests you like with people you have fun with (or alone if thats your thing, maybe having guildchat running along) and eventually you will earn the XP, the Karma and the Valor. And if now, who cares, because you had fun playing.

lyrecono
11-22-2013, 05:14 AM
better idea . .. don't ETR at all and spend my time/money on better games.

I've seen the light!

A lot of people have come to that conlusion since U14, the low server population seems to agree with your conclusion.


The cost of epic hearts needs to be cut in half.
I ETR the day it was released, with store bought heart, thinking i would be able to get the comms i needed once i reached cap again.
Well to my disappointment in 2 days i was cap and with 1700 comms. 2500 short of what i need! Now it's a pointless grind. I'm stuck playing a maxed out toon that doesn't need anything except Epic PL.

Cut the price of Hearts to 2200 Commendations. For the average player that's weeks of farm! Are you selling that many hearts on store? I bought one, and I regret it, for contributing to this messed up system.

The ammount of comms should be halved, and i wouldn't put money in their hands after all the halve finished jobs they pulled lately, they might feel rewarded and keep doing it.


long but informative post, snipped for length

On my main i have lots of melee gear, if i need to play a caster to fill caster destinies i simply won't do it, the past lives are not worth the pain of running in epics on casters without propper gear, i refuse to play them at all for pastlives.


They can make their money selling cosmetics, monster manuals, tomes of learning, xp pots, stat tomes, bank space, augments, adventure packs, premium races and classes, and yes even the dreaded expansion packs. But they will make no money if players leave because they aren't making any progress. This is my fundamental point. If the game isn't rewarding, and by rewarding I do specifically mean that feeling of advancement, then people will leave. People who leave don't buy anything.

There are things that are smart and appealing to sell -content, fluff, features, even advancement. There are things that are dumb to sell -chief among these are tools to remove arbitrary obstacles to advancement. This is sigils of leveling all over again. It's an ill-conceived paywall that is guaranteed to drive people off and will not bring one new player to the game.

They tried selling packs (something i prefer), but the Fearun content was so badly made that people either stopped playing or stopped paying.
Their latest 2 pack expansion was a downright mess and instead of fixing it, they moved on, bad move creating bad atmosphere amongst the playerbase.


Yes, Heart Seeds can go into ingredient bags.

Have you guys considered dropping the entire valor com plan (as your paying customer base has recommended) in favor for the epic tokens?


Let me know if you find any... DDO is still the best MMO out there.
In your humble opinion....


You can control that yourself. You can make THIS game relaxing and fun, if you so choose.

"Moderation in all things."
After getting screwed over by bait and switch tactics, expencive failed expansion, nerfs, bad writhing, i think they owe us some awnsers and propper fixes, some monetary compensation would be nice too.

getting the raiders box must have been awesome too lowbies and noobs, we on the other hand already found out the hard way that besides the qstaf and bow, the rest is junk, made even more evedent by the latest nerfs (nighmare bsword).
I rather had a list of Evon/EDQ base items and shards, atleast it has some relevent gear.

In other words, they're messing things up and expect us to pay for it, why do you wonder why some people get peeved at this?
I'm not even the angry one here, some left fuming.
My intrest is not only the sup par stuf they come up with, though it anoyes me, it's mainly the bad stuff that make my friends leave that botheres me.
i still remember having 4 marketplace instances, i remember full lists of lfm's, i remember harbor chat (though not always fondly XD), i remember being able to fill a shroud within 30 min, i have fond memories of friends that have left over the years due to bad decisions by Turbine.
And with me, a few others.

Do you have enough empathy to understand that? (i'm not asking you to agree)

Gremmlynn
11-22-2013, 02:53 PM
Except we would then be needing to gather both types thus more junk in our bags. Like I said this change is designed to make us buy hearts from the store and use up more bag space.The first part of course. Or lets just say, they want to make buying them from the store an attractive option. I really don't think they put a lot of thought into bag space one way or the other, which is why they are having to deal with the issue now. I doubt that they feel selling a few more bags is worth any backlash. They just didn't think things through.

The big issue they have is, I think, they wanted buying epic hearts as opposed to grinding them to be seen more like buying TP's as opposed to grinding. Instead, it's actually been called P2W and seen more as avoiding actually playing the game to buy one, with the devs simply not getting the numbers right on it.

No, eTRing is supposed to be providing the sort of steady revenue the game needs for it to be worth their time to keep developing in my estimation. Non-expansion content development is likely more an expense than a revenue earner at this stage and seen as only useful for keeping players around and paying for those eTRs. There simply aren't enough of premiums left to buy them to actually make anything at the sort of price points they've gotten us used to as the content costs just as much to develop for a hundred customers as it does for a million.

Gremmlynn
11-22-2013, 03:14 PM
After getting screwed over by bait and switch tactics, expencive failed expansion, nerfs, bad writhing, i think they owe us some awnsers and propper fixes, some monetary compensation would be nice too.For what? Don't like it, don't play. But don't act like they owe you answers, much less money, for not not offering you what you want.

Gremmlynn
11-22-2013, 04:36 PM
That's exactly my point.

/places tinfoil hat firmly on head

So Turbine puts all sorts of effort into coms of valor and the epic and iconic TR system. Eventually, they relent enough that players are at least somewhat happy with the results. Com turn in rates are seen as high by many and out of whack with the original dev posted intent. We eventually adapt and perhaps they even lower the cost to cheers from the players.

A few months pass

A new raid is released... with many cheers from the players. An upgrade system is put in place that allows you to use coms of valor for upgrades. This turns out to be the only way to upgrade the items. Players start using their stashed coms for upgrades and then have nothing left for epic TR. They are then encouraged to go to the DDO store for hearts. Our com rate remains the same, however we are now given more uses for those coms. And maybe this was Turbine's plan all along. The TR system was just a diversion. Coms were always meant for these other upgrades and we're met with a virtual bait and switch for the TR system. The costs are effectively increased and we've all been fooled. This is the only explanation I can come up with for their adamant refusal to go with bta coms. This additional use (or something similar) was planned from the start and btc coms were a necessity to make it work. The hearts and coms used for hearts are now essentially completely bta so the heart use has no bearing on the binding status of the coms any more. Seems about right.


It's similar to how coms of heroism worked. At first, you needed them ONLY for the new red and green armor. And the drop rate was poor, but it was ok because they only had one minor use and you might need at most 3 per toon. Then Turbine found their "mistake" regarding weapon upgrades and now you needed 3 per weapon, in addition to the new Antipode which was added. OK, it's getting tougher to get the coms needed but still doable. Then they add a couple upgrade tiers on the weapons at 5 and 7 coms while increasing drop rates by a small amount. With only CitW to play, we're starting to get a serious shortage of coms. FoT was added later with a much higher com rate, but CitW was never touched again. They increased the demand for coms over time without increasing the rate of acquisition in CitW to match. I worry a similar situation may be in store with coms of valor. They will continue to add additional uses for them without increasing our potential rate of acquisition, which narrows down what we end up using them on. If we feel that the cost of hearts is high right now, imagine if you also have to use those same coms for other essential uses later like loot upgrades.I don't get how this is to Turbines advantage. Nor how adding more upgrade levels is part of some nefarious plan. They added to the things we could use them for beyond the original 3, just seems to add more reasons to keep playing the game to me.

Don't even get me started on what may happen a few years down the road. Our characters get better and we start breezing through quests faster and faster. Suddenly, we are actually acquiring coms of valor faster than "intended" though completely within the rules of the game. History shows us how they will deal with this. The same way they tried to deal with players having too many tokens of the twelve. They attempted to completely abandon the old speedy system with a new one that would take 10 times as long for the same result. Players were not pleased. I wonder if Turbine has planned for the future with coms of valor the same way. Are we inevitably headed toward a nerf or new system for epic TR a few years from now when, through the normal course of player advancement, we start collecting "too fast" for Turbine?Well, we can always just not play their game, either literally or figuratively depending on how much eTRing means to our enjoyment. The way I see it they are planning to offer us more than we can conceivably get simply by playing in the hopes we buy what we can't play for. Personally, I'll likely just play for what I can and not worry about the rest as I still wont be any worse off than if it was never offered in the first place.

In the end Turbine's going to do what Turbine's going to do regardless of what we want them to do. We just decide whether the game they offer us is something we want to play.

Gremmlynn
11-22-2013, 04:53 PM
They could do exactly that, except they have mysterious plans for other things for us to spend our coms on and whatever that mysterious thing is, it's quite important for them that we not be able to buy it for alts. It appears to me that they are jumping through hoops so that they can make this mysterious thing happen. Whatever it is, it's trumping functionality for both coms of valor and hearts of wood so I'd imagine that the devs feel it's pretty important for the game. Until we know exactly what this mysterious thing is that's so important that is uses the same system as epic and iconic hearts, it's hard to judge whether it's a good idea or not. Some speculation is that coms will be used for item upgrades, perhaps new raid gear or upgrading from EN to EH or EE items, but that's mostly speculation.

As much as I dislike the idea of new systems and new ingredients, I think that epic and iconic reincarnation deserve their own system and currency and shouldn't be lumped in together with much more than a few minor extras like the already introduced pots to give a use for coms for people that have no interest in TR or will just buy the hearts anyway. Lumping another major system into this one is something that I can only see as troublesome.Another currency along side the one needed to TR would kind of defeat their purpose. As far as I can tell, they are letting us eTR with some difficulty with comms in order to give us something we want even more to spend them on in order to get us to choose to get our eTR hearts from the store so we can have more of this other thing. Rather than force us to eTR with store hearts, they would be offering us something else we can have and letting our greed to have it all do the rest. I simply don't have a problem with that, then again I came to terms with having it all meaning spending more money on this game a long time ago. Some just seem to think they shouldn't even offer us more than what the average player can get through normal game play.

SilkofDrasnia
11-22-2013, 06:23 PM
The first part of course. Or lets just say, they want to make buying them from the store an attractive option. I really don't think they put a lot of thought into bag space one way or the other, which is why they are having to deal with the issue now. I doubt that they feel selling a few more bags is worth any backlash. They just didn't think things through.

The big issue they have is, I think, they wanted buying epic hearts as opposed to grinding them to be seen more like buying TP's as opposed to grinding. Instead, it's actually been called P2W and seen more as avoiding actually playing the game to buy one, with the devs simply not getting the numbers right on it.

No, eTRing is supposed to be providing the sort of steady revenue the game needs for it to be worth their time to keep developing in my estimation. Non-expansion content development is likely more an expense than a revenue earner at this stage and seen as only useful for keeping players around and paying for those eTRs. There simply aren't enough of premiums left to buy them to actually make anything at the sort of price points they've gotten us used to as the content costs just as much to develop for a hundred customers as it does for a million.


Aye I get that and I wasn't meaning to say their main goal was using up bag space, it was prob just a small bonus for em. They didnt think about xp pots and the like though I mean what is the point of buying them or epic xp tomes if the grind is so big.

Seems to me what they will make in eheart sales will just be what they lose in pot sales. Maybe if the heart were reasonably priced but at what 20$ a pop no friggin thank you.

I will never buy a Eheart at that price.

Gremmlynn
11-22-2013, 08:05 PM
Aye I get that and I wasn't meaning to say their main goal was using up bag space, it was prob just a small bonus for em. They didnt think about xp pots and the like though I mean what is the point of buying them or epic xp tomes if the grind is so big. Probably the same thing I would think. That anyone who would buy pots to reduce xp grind would likely buy hearts to eliminate comm grind.

Frankly, I don't plan on buying any hearts myself. Not because I have a problem with the price. But simply because epic play is much the same regardless of level. So if I'm grinding comms for my first epic TR or grinding xp for my forth the game plays pretty much the same. Epic TR to me has more to do with having some kind of goal to play for than how much power that goal offers or how quickly I attain it. A long comm grind is actually a good thing in my book as it extends the time I'll have some sort of goal to play towards.

lyrecono
11-23-2013, 05:22 PM
For what? Don't like it, don't play. But don't act like they owe you answers, much less money, for not not offering you what you want.

That kind of thinking: * Don't like it, don't play.* made plenty of people leave so far, how empty do you want your server to become?
I don't want that, that's why i'm here on the forum

As far as owing answers go: the company that we all pay to keep running owes all those people answers for the mess they make of it, accountability and all.
It's not just what i want but what (apparently)many want.
It's about all the stuff we point out on Lamania and get ignored, gets fixed, bugged, re fixed and nerfed. Why ask us to review/test it only to ignore it? If NASA had that kind of QA, we would never reached the moon or build a space station(sorta).
It's about presenting something nice , selling it in the store, then changing how it works, making it useless without compensating for it, yes this is covered in the agreement, that doesn't mean we have to take it bending over. I prefer to stay critical and call them out on it.

Ivan_Milic
11-24-2013, 08:55 AM
The devs even asked us if we think epic feats should be usable in heroics, and while a few of us were against it we were outnumbered by those who wanted it. This is also why the epic feats we got are on the weaker side, to balance for heroics. A very poor decision in my opinion. Since epic TR brings you to level 20 these really have no place in heroics.

When did they ask that?
I didnt see it anywhere.

Flavilandile
11-24-2013, 01:23 PM
Sooo, Still no news regarding scraping the whole Seed idea and just making Commendations of Valor BTA.

For :
- Less complexity ( just commendations to deal with )
- No development involved ( just changing wholesome BTC to BTA we know it's easy and relatively fail proof )
- Less Bag space wasted for players
- One less Ingredient to deal with.
- and more


Against :
- No Idea, honestly, Turbine has never given us a valid reason for BTC ( and no : We want them that way because more stuff will be bought with them is NOT a valid reason )

Satyriasys
11-24-2013, 06:48 PM
When did they ask that?
I didnt see it anywhere.




They do in fact function in Heroic content at level 1.

We're happy to hear further feedback on whether or not you guys desire this, or if we should eliminate them functioning below level 20.

From this thread. (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428877-Epic-Past-Lifes-Pictures-and-Description)

rosedarkthorn
11-24-2013, 07:13 PM
Here are my problems with this system:

1. 4200 Comms of Valor is still too high.
2. Having to take Comm of Valor in the end reward instead of renown sucks for small guilds like mine. I really, really dislike this and would prefer if they dropped in end chests.
3. It still doesn't solve the issue of one of my characters having 50 Comms, another having 30 and another having 8.

Maybe getting 100 doesn't take very long, but that doesn't solve the issues of not being able to have all my Comms in one place, or the fact that, once turned into seeds, I can't turn them back into Comms if I change my mind about what I want to use them for. What if I'm in the middle of collecting them for an ETR and then I discover this new item I can trade them for, but I can't because I already changed them all into seeds? In my opinion, this just creates more problems. Instead of putting band-aids on certain issues, it would be better to find permanent fixes, like making them BTA, for example.

SeaWolf925
11-24-2013, 10:37 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the 6 million karma thing is the worst part of this system?

In my opinion yes. even the toons I only play occasionally and have only opened up a couple of EDS have 6 million; no big deal.

SeaWolf925
11-24-2013, 10:52 PM
Great post.

The number one thing Turbine needs is to keep players playing.

TR was an important mechanic for that reason. It gave people an incentive to keep playing the game while Turbine struggled to bring out more endgame content.

With the current endgame situation being the worst I have experienced in DDO's history due to a variety of poor design choices ER and Iconc TR Is needed even more then TR was back in the day.

Yet Turbine these systems have been implemented in a manner which seriously detracts from this primary goal critical to retaining customers.

In very basic terms there are two basic types of issues with Turbine's implementation here. First, is trying to monetize the ER process directly by making the comm drop rate and method poor making store purchases more likely. You make more money on heart sales this way in the short term, but you gut the effectiveness of the system serving as an effective method of retaining players. Second, the reward is very small for ER. That is a huge deal also as the TR rewards were on the weak side with some exceptions and these are even weaker compared to current character power. Rewards have to be compelling to serve as an effective means of keeping people playing.

They are too busy working on Burden of Guilt, for which I have none. I acquired all my equipment legitimately.

era42
11-25-2013, 01:23 AM
Nothing short of a major overhaul is likely to bring in the number of new people an 8 year old game would need to keep things going using a build an account method. While the game may not make money off players that leave, none of us will be playing if the game doesn't make enough money to justify giving it a budget at all. We just saw what sort of expansion pack they can afford to release on the sort of budget they are given. I doubt many are going to be willing to buy another.

While it's true that the game is unlikely to get a massive amount of new players, it's also true that a major overhaul can easily drive a large portion of current players away. Clearly they are focusing on short-term gains over any long-term plans/game survivability. The December VIP-heart-event is one more clear stab in that direction; with many players going VIP for one month, I'm sure the management goals will be reached and the hefty bonuses can be collected.



We have to deal with reality and the reality is that this game doesn't have the player base to spread the costs out over and expect to get by any way except by many of us being willing to drop ~$13 every other eTR or so or finding a way to get most of us to choose to pay monthly.

Yes and no. Push us too hard and we push back. Make the $$$-grab too obvious and more and more people will get the reverse reaction and stop spending. I stopped my VIP already at Shadowfail, a guildie ended it with the 4200-tokens, and I've seen forum posts about people stopping potion/box buys.

In addition to the active stop on spending, the huge grind of 4200 comms drains the will to play. From the three of our guilds active players one is enjoying things, farming EE:s with a capped toon and having fun. The two others practically stopped playing, it felt like too much bother even to log on to see if there's anything happening. The upcoming BTA change restored my faith a tiny bit, I've actually logged on since that, and even occasionally done a quest or two. But, unless the cost is lowered, I don't see myself playing very long. Drawing numbers from this small sample, 33% of players continued playing (but didn't start buying hearts), 33% stopped/lessened playing and 33% stopped/lessened playing and canceled VIP.

I can imagine that one dude in our guild might buy a reinc heart from store, so that would even out 1 month of lost VIP. So I guess that's nothing lost, the loss will not come from the earnings in this quarter.

wraxzz
11-25-2013, 04:14 AM
Without reading another post after page 3, here's my 2 cents:

With my char's current haggle skill and an average item value of reward options for completing a quest at 9600pp, and assuming it will take 500 quests to get 4200 comms at my current rate (8 COV's per EN), I will be paying 1 million platinum pieces for an epic heart (500 quests * 2k pp per end reward vendor trash). That is such a big loss its just stupid. this system must be based on the South African ANC government.

Anyways, what I actually wanted to say was the COV rate for each completed quest is too low- im practically forced to pick COV's from the reward list if I ever want to epic tr at the current rate of 8 COV's per underdark EpicNormal I run, but so far I have collected about 120 COV's over the weekend of quest farming- so I did about 12 underdark quests at 8 comm each, of those 12 quests, IIRC, i received a legendary victory option at least 4 times- that relates to 1988x4= 7952 guild renown missed out on for a total of 32/4200 COV's. copy+paste= That is such a big loss its just stupid. this system must be based on the South African ANC government.

My point is: number of COVs required for epic hearts are stupendously high.
Im not too phased about yet another ingredient as I have solved this hassle by acquiring 4 large ingredients bags. Yes, of all my characters, normally 12 slots OF A BAG, ARE HOLDING BAGS. Wait what? This isnt harry potter online...
Furthermore I personally find running SAGA's suck. Since half the player base expect barbarians to chug pots and self-heal instead of dealing the most melee dmg likely in a group, I pretty much only solo except for epic raids and therefore I hate having to find groups to run SAGA quests on EE and having a player drop and a new one join every second quest. IMO, saga's has made DDO much less fun. Feels like a waste of time typing this- as if turbine is going to make a change in favour of the players that support their company.

HungarianRhapsody
11-25-2013, 09:00 AM
Some people might have noticed that raids are pretty dead at the moment.

If you add commendations of valor (dropping at a reasonable rate) as an end reward on the non-20th runs for raids, you might find that people run the raids more often.

Just a thought.

Ninety
11-25-2013, 11:01 AM
Bump, we need lower Commendations of valor amounts. As a casual player, I rarely get more than 50 commendations per day. That means once every 3 months I get to eTR. That's not acceptable.

RobbinB
11-25-2013, 11:03 AM
Thanks for the fixes.

Face it, some people are just not fulfilled unless they find something to complain about. Some of these people would complain if Turbine gave every character $100 as a gift of appreciation because the check was mailed instead of hand delivered.

Turbine has proved over the past 6 weeks that they are listening to the playerbase, some people just refuse to see it.

To be fair, if Turbine's recent track record is taken straight up, then while they may be proving they are listening to the playerbase, they are even more so proving they are incompetent and unknowledgeable about their own game.

Recent proposed changes have met with huge resistance because they are so obviously out of touch with game reality. Was the takehome message from the proposed EPIC tr system that turbine listens to players (it took a bridge revolt to make them listen) or that they have no clue?

Same in this case, are you going to beat the "listens to playerbase" drum because we now have a overly complicated (as usual) workaround for an out-of-touch design, or remind Turbine that 4200 comms is still crazy, especially if they plan to make other uses for those comms?

A conspiracy-theorist would definitely say that all of Turbines recent proposals are purposefully out of whack so that they can get immediate harsh criticism and then respond so that they seem to be listening to players, while actually instituting systems that are even bigger grindfests and money-grabs then they could get away with if they tried to set up the systems "fair value" initially.

Thrudh
11-25-2013, 12:24 PM
Furthermore I personally find running SAGA's suck. Since half the player base expect barbarians to chug pots and self-heal instead of dealing the most melee dmg likely in a group, I pretty much only solo except for epic raids and therefore I hate having to find groups to run SAGA quests on EE and having a player drop and a new one join every second quest. IMO, saga's has made DDO much less fun. Feels like a waste of time typing this- as if turbine is going to make a change in favour of the players that support their company.

Sagas are 100% optional. Pretty easy to NOT run sagas if you hate sagas... People are so weird.

Thrudh
11-25-2013, 12:26 PM
Bump, we need lower Commendations of valor amounts. As a casual player, I rarely get more than 50 commendations per day. That means once every 3 months I get to eTR. That's not acceptable.

As a casual player playing only 3-4 quests a day, it probably takes you 2-3 months to get from level 20-28 anyway...

Don't get me wrong...I think should probably lower the number of Comms needed as well, but your argument is weak.

Gremmlynn
11-25-2013, 08:32 PM
While it's true that the game is unlikely to get a massive amount of new players, it's also true that a major overhaul can easily drive a large portion of current players away. Clearly they are focusing on short-term gains over any long-term plans/game survivability. The December VIP-heart-event is one more clear stab in that direction; with many players going VIP for one month, I'm sure the management goals will be reached and the hefty bonuses can be collected.Personally, I think this is what is needed for long, or maybe even short, term survival.




Yes and no. Push us too hard and we push back. Make the $$$-grab too obvious and more and more people will get the reverse reaction and stop spending. I stopped my VIP already at Shadowfail, a guildie ended it with the 4200-tokens, and I've seen forum posts about people stopping potion/box buys.

In addition to the active stop on spending, the huge grind of 4200 comms drains the will to play. From the three of our guilds active players one is enjoying things, farming EE:s with a capped toon and having fun. The two others practically stopped playing, it felt like too much bother even to log on to see if there's anything happening. The upcoming BTA change restored my faith a tiny bit, I've actually logged on since that, and even occasionally done a quest or two. But, unless the cost is lowered, I don't see myself playing very long. Drawing numbers from this small sample, 33% of players continued playing (but didn't start buying hearts), 33% stopped/lessened playing and 33% stopped/lessened playing and canceled VIP.

I can imagine that one dude in our guild might buy a reinc heart from store, so that would even out 1 month of lost VIP. So I guess that's nothing lost, the loss will not come from the earnings in this quarter.What good is having those people stick around, if it means the game wont even have a chance of meeting WBs expectations? At least this way they stand a chance of doing so if they are in as dire straits as they appear to me to be.

Better to hang one's hopes on a leaky life raft that probably will sink than a ship that you know will.

Ytteri
12-03-2013, 11:48 PM
So..... are we ever gonna get some comments or response to the suggestions or concerns raised here?

viktorserak
12-04-2013, 05:57 AM
We’re aware of several topics of discussion relating to Commendations of Valor. As players get more time with Update 20, we’ll be keeping an eye on how Commendations of Valor are working out and will consider possible changes. We have identified two issues that we feel we can address sooner rather than later:

1. Bind-to-Character: Earning Hearts of Wood via multiple Characters
Commendations of Valor are an Epic Ingredient that are Bind-to-Character, because we plan to use them for lots of different reward types. However, this puts extra strain on players who are earning Hearts of wood by playing many different characters, or who may have one character earning Commendations in lower levels while another character is already at the level cap. We’d like to address this to give additional options to these players while still allowing us flexibility for reward items we offer through Commendations in the future.

2. Commendations of Valor and Bag Space
The number of Commendations of Valor received scales heavily across different character levels, which means it’s challenging to simply reduce the amounts of Commendations bestowed, or the costs for Hearts of Wood, without consequence for characters of different level. However, this was not intended to put stress on bag space, so we’d like to address that too.


Introducing: Heart Seeds
We’re adding a new, entirely optional ingredient relating to Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood called “Heart Seeds”. This new ingredient adds some complications, but we felt those complications were worth it in order to address the above issues.

Heart Seeds:
Stacks of these precious seeds can be combined to form Iconic or Epic Hearts of Wood.
Purchasable with Commendations of Valor, these seeds are Bound to Account (unlike Commendations of Valor), allowing you to get hearts of wood by pooling resources from multiple characters.
Bound to Account items are tradable to your other characters through the Shared Bank.


https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/HeartSeeds.jpg

Notes:
You can obtain 1 Heart Seed by turning 100 Commendations of Valor.
You can obtain either one Iconic True Heart of Wood or one Epic Heart of Wood by turning in 42 Heart Seeds.
You can still obtain either of those Hearts of Wood by turning in 4200 Commendations of Valor. You can safely ignore Heart Seeds if the above issues don’t affect you.
Heart Seeds are currently only obtainable through the barter interface associated with Commendations of Valor.
Heart Seeds can only be used to purchase Iconic True Hearts of Wood or Epic Hearts of Wood. In particular, they cannot be used to buy the potions that Commendations of Valor can be used for.
You cannot turn Heart Seeds back into Commendations of Valor.


Thanks for your feedback on Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.


I believe that there is a communication problem between us (your customers, the players) and you (devs, turbine folks).

So, to put it as simple as possible:

With the current drop rate, it is the number of CoVs needed for the heart, that is the main problem. Drop it to 2500 maximum and we will be happy. Well, most of us anyway, some ppl will never be happy.

CoVs may stay BTC, they may not auto-stack (thou I agree that its unpleasant), that is all secondary. The primary and main problem is the number of CoVs needed.

I want to ETR and run the hamster wheel. But Right now, ETR is either P2P aspect of the game, or something that can only be earned by playing the game like it is my job.

And since we are in the situation, where there is litterally nothing to do on capp, that is hurting you. I rarely logg, because I have no idea what I would do.

I pay for DDO. I am unwilling to pay for heart. I am bored by almost non-existent epic capp game. I cant TR without farming till my eyes bleed. I will stop playing and paying, since I am loosing reasons to logg into the game anymore.

EllisDee37
12-04-2013, 06:39 AM
With the current drop rate, it is the number of CoVs needed for the heart, that is the main problem. Drop it to 2500 maximum and we will be happy. Well, most of us anyway, some ppl will never be happy.Agreed, but don't forget that karma needs to drop to 2 million. (The price of a single destiny, which was all you needed to get a free 6 million karma when it went live. Man did I get hosed, needing to grind 5 million xp now instead of 900k the week before U20 went live.)

Abitar
12-06-2013, 09:45 AM
I am a very casual player to start with.


I find that getting true heart is very difficult unless I sit and grind for them. Since I have characters who have to group, I never thought of this game as solo but it has turned that way :( I finding it hard to play my epic characters. tHen running into bugs of the saga rewards disappearing before you can use it??(reported a month ago).

I currently have 2 epic characters, my 'main', only call it that because it hold the most favor, who I started to moving to the new cap. :) Between the 2 of them, maybe 100 commodation of valor, I should of thought they would been bound to account not character. So, maybe by middle of next year or year after Ill gain enough CoV to be useful. But then again, I have only 1 TR with 1 past life so far. So they just something I have to figure where to put them.

I finding with all the equipment you want to hold for a next life clutters up your bank(s). Adding another item to keep track of... At least you can pool them into one common bank to keep track.

Back to my collections, I been working toward getting the fragment for a heroic true heart, Well After combining all the fragments and such, which has increased many times over since my characters started trying to collect them. I'm still only up to 16 tokens after a few years of casual play.

I still have 28 pt characters in my stables using ehm as bank toons, I thought of bring them active but getting them to 20 in the gimp form will not be very enjoyable. Couple of my 28pt characters have true heart of wood they got for some promotion years ago. I am a hoarder of old stuff, but I have been turning lots stuff to essences. But, still wonder how long before the birthday cakes go stale :) I have xp pots, slayer pots, cakes and cookies that are bound to character on toons who I use as banks, with up to a doz slots used for promotional items.

You know what would be nice to have a way to dump the contents of your inventory and banks to a CSV file or another text file so the people who have mules in the stable to keep track of what you have. I recently sold 8 venom blades (still have a pair on each toon who would use them ) So having another item to track that is character bound is a pain, to add to the collections, essence, trap parts, shards, spell components, pots, cookies, coins, gems , and the list goes on. I keep red and green bags in the shared bank for collecting the materials to on location. But this is a problem (or a challenge ) with most MMNOs learning to manage to limited inventory space.

RD2play
12-07-2013, 05:39 AM
One other thing to consider is that you guys planned the CoV to be useful for more than just the hearts in the future, as it stands now everyone is picking the CoV because it feels mandatory (picking over loot) if you ever want to ITR/ER. So in its current iteration you really think people are even going to spend their CoV on the other prises?

reduce the amount needed for ITR/ER so you wont have to run all epic content 3 times ! just to obtain a heart , actually after running everything EE you should have plenty CoV to decide whether to farm "bit" more for TR or to spend them on other goodies! and farm later !

Dalsheel
12-07-2013, 06:37 AM
This is a good thing. Now change the price of hearts to 25 seeds and you'll have a great thing.

+1

DogMania
12-17-2013, 06:58 AM
2. Lower the Karma required to ETR to 2 million.



Why?, after you ETR it is 6.6 mill to get back to 28 from 20 so you have 0.6 mill spare

Drwaz99
12-17-2013, 08:01 AM
Why?, after you ETR it is 6.6 mill to get back to 28 from 20 so you have 0.6 mill spare

Because spending so much time out of our preferred destiny isn't only an inconvenience it's entirely not fun whatsoever. 2-3 million (my acceptable range) is still a good amount of grind but not stupidly high. Karma reqs now are stupid high.

I play this game to have fun. Not to get ****ed off because there are artificial barriers in place preventing me, and many others, from having fun.

Teh_Troll
12-17-2013, 08:42 AM
Why?

Because I said so. That should be reason enough.

Silverleafeon
12-17-2013, 08:55 AM
Because I said so. That should be reason enough.

http://www.rotoscopers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/elsa-frozen-trailer-olaf-trolls.png

6,785 now...can we have something cool to buy with 10k of them, like rainbow wings (or autogrant completionist feat)?

JOTMON
12-17-2013, 08:56 AM
Because I said so. That should be reason enough.

Good enough reason for me.

Make it so.

mmitch5
01-09-2014, 05:31 AM
+1 this is my feeling at the moment : out of whack
Been reading the whole thread and many other messages
In the forum talking about a fair value of 2200-2500 com
Of valor worth the grind.
As many others i will wait for a reaction from turbine to
Playerbase..if not i will be connecting once in a while
Until they come back to earth with decent correction
On this ..
Anamalia level 28 - 1911 com of valor...
Money money money pink floyd


To be fair, if Turbine's recent track record is taken straight up, then while they may be proving they are listening to the playerbase, they are even more so proving they are incompetent and unknowledgeable about their own game.

Recent proposed changes have met with huge resistance because they are so obviously out of touch with game reality. Was the takehome message from the proposed EPIC tr system that turbine listens to players (it took a bridge revolt to make them listen) or that they have no clue?

Same in this case, are you going to beat the "listens to playerbase" drum because we now have a overly complicated (as usual) workaround for an out-of-touch design, or remind Turbine that 4200 comms is still crazy, especially if they plan to make other uses for those comms?

A conspiracy-theorist would definitely say that all of Turbines recent proposals are purposefully out of whack so that they can get immediate harsh criticism and then respond so that they seem to be listening to players, while actually instituting systems that are even bigger grindfests and money-grabs then they could get away with if they tried to set up the systems "fair value" initially.

Starla70
01-10-2014, 12:41 PM
I hear from many that I play with that the money grab is getting overdone. I for one do not want to buy hearts of wood. It totally destroys the point of earning turbine points through VIP. I would have to do nothing else but buy hearts or wait for sales of them.

The valor needed and the valor given out just do not make sense to me. I get 8 to 15 generally, so I need to run quests daily to get anywhere as it is now. Which, real life happens and this can not always be done. It frustrates people.

The bank space taken up...wow there is a issue. Maybe it is time to give us new space. I would not mind earning it, but there is just too much to keep track of now. With a TR having to empty out their TR cache on top of it all, another frustration! This I believe is the number one complaint of people I know. There just is not enough room to store things. Taking away the ability to store bags in a shared bank, makes it all that much worse, quivers as well.

The heart seeds is kind of like the epic token making to TR. I think that makes sense. I still think it should be lowered a bit, maybe 3,000.

mkmcgw17
01-11-2014, 07:32 AM
We’re aware of several topics of discussion relating to Commendations of Valor. As players get more time with Update 20, we’ll be keeping an eye on how Commendations of Valor are working out and will consider possible changes. We have identified two issues that we feel we can address sooner rather than later:

1. Bind-to-Character: Earning Hearts of Wood via multiple Characters
Commendations of Valor are an Epic Ingredient that are Bind-to-Character, because we plan to use them for lots of different reward types. However, this puts extra strain on players who are earning Hearts of wood by playing many different characters, or who may have one character earning Commendations in lower levels while another character is already at the level cap. We’d like to address this to give additional options to these players while still allowing us flexibility for reward items we offer through Commendations in the future.

2. Commendations of Valor and Bag Space
The number of Commendations of Valor received scales heavily across different character levels, which means it’s challenging to simply reduce the amounts of Commendations bestowed, or the costs for Hearts of Wood, without consequence for characters of different level. However, this was not intended to put stress on bag space, so we’d like to address that too.


Introducing: Heart Seeds
We’re adding a new, entirely optional ingredient relating to Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood called “Heart Seeds”. This new ingredient adds some complications, but we felt those complications were worth it in order to address the above issues.

Heart Seeds:
Stacks of these precious seeds can be combined to form Iconic or Epic Hearts of Wood.
Purchasable with Commendations of Valor, these seeds are Bound to Account (unlike Commendations of Valor), allowing you to get hearts of wood by pooling resources from multiple characters.
Bound to Account items are tradable to your other characters through the Shared Bank.


https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/HeartSeeds.jpg

Notes:
You can obtain 1 Heart Seed by turning 100 Commendations of Valor.
You can obtain either one Iconic True Heart of Wood or one Epic Heart of Wood by turning in 42 Heart Seeds.
You can still obtain either of those Hearts of Wood by turning in 4200 Commendations of Valor. You can safely ignore Heart Seeds if the above issues don’t affect you.
Heart Seeds are currently only obtainable through the barter interface associated with Commendations of Valor.
Heart Seeds can only be used to purchase Iconic True Hearts of Wood or Epic Hearts of Wood. In particular, they cannot be used to buy the potions that Commendations of Valor can be used for.
You cannot turn Heart Seeds back into Commendations of Valor.


Thanks for your feedback on Commendations of Valor and Hearts of Wood.

I like the change thank you I don't really intend on epic tring but at least I can put all the comms of valor together in case I change my mind.

hi_sa1nt
01-15-2014, 07:21 PM
Why not make it 20 epic dungeon tokens to buy any heart (iconic, true, epic, etc)? Gives us a reason to go back to Eberron and quest, in which most of us run quests anyway.

Ivan_Milic
01-15-2014, 08:08 PM
Why not make it 20 epic dungeon tokens to buy any heart (iconic, true, epic, etc)? Gives us a reason to go back to Eberron and quest, in which most of us run quests anyway.

Because there is no money in it and with vcomms turbine will sell new packs easier.

hi_sa1nt
01-15-2014, 08:10 PM
Because there is no money in it and with vcomms turbine will sell new packs easier.

Well, aren't they planning on using vcomms to upgrade new weapons as well? That's what I heard/read. So, either way, they'll sell the new packs.

Jasparion
01-15-2014, 08:18 PM
As a casual player playing only 3-4 quests a day, it probably takes you 2-3 months to get from level 20-28 anyway...

Don't get me wrong...I think should probably lower the number of Comms needed as well, but your argument is weak.

My group runs between 4 and 8 quests a day, 5 to 7 days a week and got there in 3 or 4 weeks. And we got about 1,800 Comms running all the content on EH and taking the rewards almost every time. Skipped Slayers and hardly repeated much. Ran a few raids.

Not sure how that fits in the Casual / Hard Core / Teh_Troll scale, but there you have it.


Agreed, but don't forget that karma needs to drop to 2 million. (The price of a single destiny, which was all you needed to get a free 6 million karma when it went live. Man did I get hosed, needing to grind 5 million xp now instead of 900k the week before U20 went live.)

Even 3 million would be fine. Spend half your time in the off-EDs, half your time in the ones you want.

mmitch5
01-17-2014, 09:36 AM
After 1 months of EHarding web dungeons i am sitted
At 2211 COV.
Had not much time during double bonus period but surely
Will get to 4200 on March 2014 or maybe never if I get
Exhausted before..
They have invented the perfect hamster wheel , the one that
Is infinite


My group runs between 4 and 8 quests a day, 5 to 7 days a week and got there in 3 or 4 weeks. And we got about 1,800 Comms running all the content on EH and taking the rewards almost every time. Skipped Slayers and hardly repeated much. Ran a few raids.

Not sure how that fits in the Casual / Hard Core / Teh_Troll scale, but there you have it.



Even 3 million would be fine. Spend half your time in the off-EDs, half your time in the ones you want.

brian14
01-17-2014, 12:22 PM
It is a perfect hamster wheel only if the cheese is tasty enough.

My second-life bard (currently level 16) has maxed out Fatesinger, and now has 6,000,000 karma. However a) I much prefer heroic content to epic, and b) Arcane EPL's are absolute junk in my opinion. I am much more interested in getting him a druid past life, and will probably HTR not long after reaching 21. To heck with that Arcane karma.

I did ETR my ranger, for Colors of the Queen, with an Epic Heart from DDO store. Might get her also a Divine EPL in distant future, but so far the level 24-28 range is just not fun to play. And if it's not fun, I won't do it.

danotmano1998
01-17-2014, 12:38 PM
*Highly logical suggestion ahead*


Turbine, how about you lower the comms needed to get hearts just until the new content is released and the level cap goes up?

Come on, this seems like a no-brainer, everybody wins kind of suggestion.

Gljosh
01-17-2014, 12:51 PM
I have ETRed 5 times (3-Primal, 1-Martial, and 1-Divine), I took Comms for every reward (when offered EN/EH normally) and I have roughly 3800 Comms. ran lots of high xp/low Comms quests (Von 3/5, Chamber of Raiyum) and used Saga XP to fill out spheres and unlock off destinies. So I had to buy 4 hearts (when on sale just after double points, using Favor and VIP based TP) and used the free VIP ETR Heart. It seems that after my Iconic life I should easily have enough to buy a heart in game, but I bought 2 ITR hearts when they were on sale. Pretty much you have to earn a Com for every 1571XP earned, so skip all optional/slayer/explorer/don't; break boxes, disarm traps, buy Epic Learning tomes, use XP pots, use Epic Otto Stones. Plainly Zerg as fast and hard as you can, but not so hard as to get a Discreet bonus, that could throw off the curve.

EllisDee37
01-17-2014, 08:03 PM
Even 3 million would be fine. Spend half your time in the off-EDs, half your time in the ones you want.Half your time in off-EDs is far too much, IMO.

I view off destinies as akin to other classes' enhancement trees. Needing 6 million karma to ER right now when it takes 6.6 million (or whatever) epic xp to cap is to me no different than saying you need 1.9 million heroic xp to cap, but you can only TR after you've earned 1.75 million xp using another class's enhancement trees instead of the trees for the classes in your build.

Jasparion
01-17-2014, 08:23 PM
Half your time in off-EDs is far too much, IMO.

I view off destinies as akin to other classes' enhancement trees. Needing 6 million karma to ER right now when it takes 6.6 million (or whatever) epic xp to cap is to me no different than saying you need 1.9 million heroic xp to cap, but you can only TR after you've earned 1.75 million xp using another class's enhancement trees instead of the trees for the classes in your build.

If you want the benefits of a Barb past life, you level a Barb. If you want the benefits of an Arcane past life, you level in Arcane.

Otherwise we would just level Shiradi Sorcs over and over and pick the past lives we wanted.

Krelar
01-17-2014, 08:28 PM
If you want the benefits of a Barb past life, you level a Barb. If you want the benefits of an Arcane past life, you level in Arcane.

Otherwise we would just level Shiradi Sorcs over and over and pick the past lives we wanted.

But you only need 1/3 of your class levels to be barb to get a barb past life. Many people do in fact level their TR's the same way using the same 2/3 classes every time and just switch the 1/3 for the class they want a past life in.

Drwaz99
01-17-2014, 08:50 PM
But you only need 1/3 of your class levels to be barb to get a barb past life. Many people do in fact level their TR's the same way using the same 2/3 classes every time and just switch the 1/3 for the class they want a past life in.

Ding! This just 100% shoots down everyone who says this:


If you want the benefits of a Barb past life, you level a Barb. If you want the benefits of an Arcane past life, you level in Arcane.

Otherwise we would just level Shiradi Sorcs over and over and pick the past lives we wanted.

EllisDee37
01-17-2014, 09:10 PM
If you want the benefits of a Barb past life, you level a Barb. If you want the benefits of an Arcane past life, you level in Arcane.

Otherwise we would just level Shiradi Sorcs over and over and pick the past lives we wanted.The heroic barb past life feat is appropriate for barbarians, though.

Which makes more sense as an epic past life for barbs, double strike or double shot? The "barbarian" EPL feat gives double shot. He needs to level as a "fighter" to get double strike.

Drwaz99
01-17-2014, 09:39 PM
The heroic barb past life feat is appropriate for barbarians, though.

Which makes more sense as an epic past life for barbs, double strike or double shot? The "barbarian" EPL feat gives double shot. He needs to level as a "fighter" to get double strike.

And to add to this:

Brace, from the Divine Sphere (+1 to saves, +3 PRR) doesn't inherently scream DIVINE! And I have a feeling that other than most PM's and Pure healers, it will the most popular one from that sphere. And to a lesser degree, Enchant Weapon will the the PL of choice for any class that doesn't cast elemental spells. (It does make a good deal of difference on implement bonuses say on eSoS with recon slotted and +3 to-hit and damage is equivalent to 3 heroic monks lives).

So the argument that "If you want the Divine past life, TR into a divine" basically doesn't apply since the epic past lives in many cases are very general. At least in heroic levels, they are more class specific. You would never see +1 to saves and 3PRR as a Cleric or FVS heroic PL (pally sure, but it's really a divine sphere as we speak. Yes I know they are adding one, we'll see what happens.). Or as Ellis Pointed out, doubleshot bonus as one of the barb or druid heroic PL's.

Nightmanis
01-18-2014, 04:43 AM
Kind of makes me wonder what other things they may implement in the future for the comms. Grind out 10k to get a blue augment with +1 to weapon threat range and 10% chance for spell crits? Maybe.

Ladywolf
01-20-2014, 04:13 PM
*Highly logical suggestion ahead*


Turbine, how about you lower the comms needed to get hearts just until the new content is released and the level cap goes up?

Come on, this seems like a no-brainer, everybody wins kind of suggestion.

Agree with lowering comms needed for hearts. Alternatively, please increase comms reward/quest

Jasparion
01-20-2014, 04:21 PM
The heroic barb past life feat is appropriate for barbarians, though.

Which makes more sense as an epic past life for barbs, double strike or double shot? The "barbarian" EPL feat gives double shot. He needs to level as a "fighter" to get double strike.

That is more about Devs designing terrible past lives, than an issue with how much Karma to earn.

I would much rather they make the past lives actually worth taking.

Daitengu
01-21-2014, 01:11 AM
The heroic barb past life feat is appropriate for barbarians, though.

Which makes more sense as an epic past life for barbs, double strike or double shot? The "barbarian" EPL feat gives double shot. He needs to level as a "fighter" to get double strike.The Barb EPL is the Fast Healing, as in in the Fury Destiny. Doubleshot is the ranger EPL.