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HastyPudding
11-20-2013, 02:13 AM
So, I TR'd my cleric into a TWF bastard sword bladeforged paladin because I had found 2 nightmares (neither from a raider's box, tyvm) and had several excellent bastard swords (like 2 drow weaponmaster swords and a twinblade) saved up because I had been planning something like this for a while. I also love the bladeforged racial tree (and I can show off my shiny pre-purchase bladeforged cosmetic armor). I'm enjoying the character immensely, but I've hit a bit of an impasse.

The character is currently level 16, with 14 paladin levels and 2 fighter levels. The two extra feats from fighter helped a lot and splashing into the kensei tree also gave me some extra stuff and haste boost. The problem is, I've run out of feats for what I want to do:

Planned Feats
level 1 - power attack
fighter 1 - proficiency: bastard sword
fighter 2 - cleave
level 3 - two-weapon fighting
level 6 - oversized two-weapon fighting
level 9 - improved critical: slashing
level 12 - great cleave
level 15 - improved two-weapon fighting
level 18 - greater two-weapon fighting
level 21 - overwhelming critical
level 24 - quicken
level 28 - toughness?

Now, I have a few questions, keeping in mind I'm extremely conservative about multiclassing (I'm a purist, mostly) and I have my free LR token still available for feat swapping:

1. I have 14 paladin levels, that gave me the zeal spell, which is what I wanted from it in the first place, along with decent SP and some spell slots to play with. I have 2 fighter levels for 2 extra feats. What else can I add with the 4 remaining levels? Getting more levels in paladin seems a bit of a waste since I gain nothing but a few spell slots, which I already have everything I need (zeal, divine favor, etc). IF -- I stress the word if -- I had to add more levels of another class, I think I would get more of what I want out of 4 fighter levels for 2 more feats and better access to the kensei tree. I severely dislike the idea of everybody and their mother splashing 2 monk levels and steer away from the herd mentality out of principle.

2. Is oversized two-weapon fighting really necessary in higher/epic levels? Is the to-hit penalty that bad? The feat slot could be used to get quicken earlier or something else.

3. Is the adamantine body feat worth getting? I could gain a sizable AC boost from docents along with the option to get +10 PRR from the bladeforged tree. I noticed while running heroic elite gianthold that I was getting hit for a shameful amount of damage from ogres and trolls, and in other quests I was taking quite a beating, and it's only going to get worse in epics. Getting this, I will miss out on ever having the option of monk or rogue levels for evasion. Mithral body would be a substitute, but I don't feel it'd be worth it since it adds nothing but a few AC.

4. As far as enhancements go, I think the defender tree has more useful things (+25 prr and some saves/ac is nice from the defender stance, which can be used with power attack). I have most of my points in KoTC, for more smites, more turns, and +2 charisma; the core enhancement are little more than fluff. I am trying out holy retribution, but in all honesty, I don't see it being that useful in epics without sorcerer-like charisma, especially since I won't be a pure paladin. Are there any super-useful or must-have abilities to get from KoTC I might have overlooked? Should I only use this tree for smites/turns and focus more on the defender, bladeforged, and kensei trees?

Asmodeus451
11-20-2013, 04:11 AM
i wont speak to any of the multiclassing stuff, but there is one thing i'll add.

rather than taking Toughness for a fairly paltry increase in HP, consider Extend instead. with the short duration of Zeal and DF (especially given only 14 pally levels) Extend can be a real "quality of life" feat, not to mention saving you some SP (say Zeal lasts 2 min, and costs 25 sp. you'd need to cast it twice, costing 50 sp, for a 4 min duration. or you could cast it once with extend for only 35 sp)

Inoukchuk
11-20-2013, 09:37 AM
So, I TR'd my cleric into a TWF bastard sword bladeforged paladin because I had found 2 nightmares (neither from a raider's box, tyvm) and had several excellent bastard swords (like 2 drow weaponmaster swords and a twinblade) saved up because I had been planning something like this for a while. I also love the bladeforged racial tree (and I can show off my shiny pre-purchase bladeforged cosmetic armor). I'm enjoying the character immensely, but I've hit a bit of an impasse.

The character is currently level 16, with 14 paladin levels and 2 fighter levels. The two extra feats from fighter helped a lot and splashing into the kensei tree also gave me some extra stuff and haste boost. The problem is, I've run out of feats for what I want to do:

Planned Feats
level 1 - power attack
fighter 1 - proficiency: bastard sword
fighter 2 - cleave
level 3 - two-weapon fighting
level 6 - oversized two-weapon fighting
level 9 - improved critical: slashing
level 12 - great cleave
level 15 - improved two-weapon fighting
level 18 - greater two-weapon fighting
level 21 - overwhelming critical
level 24 - quicken
level 28 - toughness?

Now, I have a few questions, keeping in mind I'm extremely conservative about multiclassing (I'm a purist, mostly) and I have my free LR token still available for feat swapping:

1. I have 14 paladin levels, that gave me the zeal spell, which is what I wanted from it in the first place, along with decent SP and some spell slots to play with. I have 2 fighter levels for 2 extra feats. What else can I add with the 4 remaining levels? Getting more levels in paladin seems a bit of a waste since I gain nothing but a few spell slots, which I already have everything I need (zeal, divine favor, etc). IF -- I stress the word if -- I had to add more levels of another class, I think I would get more of what I want out of 4 fighter levels for 2 more feats and better access to the kensei tree. I severely dislike the idea of everybody and their mother splashing 2 monk levels and steer away from the herd mentality out of principle.

2. Is oversized two-weapon fighting really necessary in higher/epic levels? Is the to-hit penalty that bad? The feat slot could be used to get quicken earlier or something else.

3. Is the adamantine body feat worth getting? I could gain a sizable AC boost from docents along with the option to get +10 PRR from the bladeforged tree. I noticed while running heroic elite gianthold that I was getting hit for a shameful amount of damage from ogres and trolls, and in other quests I was taking quite a beating, and it's only going to get worse in epics. Getting this, I will miss out on ever having the option of monk or rogue levels for evasion. Mithral body would be a substitute, but I don't feel it'd be worth it since it adds nothing but a few AC.

4. As far as enhancements go, I think the defender tree has more useful things (+25 prr and some saves/ac is nice from the defender stance, which can be used with power attack). I have most of my points in KoTC, for more smites, more turns, and +2 charisma; the core enhancement are little more than fluff. I am trying out holy retribution, but in all honesty, I don't see it being that useful in epics without sorcerer-like charisma, especially since I won't be a pure paladin. Are there any super-useful or must-have abilities to get from KoTC I might have overlooked? Should I only use this tree for smites/turns and focus more on the defender, bladeforged, and kensei trees?

MOOOO!

Well, if you can think of anything another class can offer that rivals 2 feats, +3 to all saves, 4% dodge and evasion with paladin saves... I'd love to hear it. Monk ftw. Could even go 3 monk for healing curse and move bonus.

Krelar
11-20-2013, 10:19 AM
1. I have 14 paladin levels, that gave me the zeal spell, which is what I wanted from it in the first place, along with decent SP and some spell slots to play with. I have 2 fighter levels for 2 extra feats. What else can I add with the 4 remaining levels? Getting more levels in paladin seems a bit of a waste since I gain nothing but a few spell slots, which I already have everything I need (zeal, divine favor, etc). IF -- I stress the word if -- I had to add more levels of another class, I think I would get more of what I want out of 4 fighter levels for 2 more feats and better access to the kensei tree. I severely dislike the idea of everybody and their mother splashing 2 monk levels and steer away from the herd mentality out of principle.


You could take 2 rogue levels for evasion instead of 2 monk. :)
Seriously if you don't end up taking a body feat, with a paladins high saves, evasion will be very effective.



2. Is oversized two-weapon fighting really necessary in higher/epic levels? Is the to-hit penalty that bad? The feat slot could be used to get quicken earlier or something else.


I have a twf rogue and have not noticed any significant problems hitting things.



3. Is the adamantine body feat worth getting? I could gain a sizable AC boost from docents along with the option to get +10 PRR from the bladeforged tree. I noticed while running heroic elite gianthold that I was getting hit for a shameful amount of damage from ogres and trolls, and in other quests I was taking quite a beating, and it's only going to get worse in epics. Getting this, I will miss out on ever having the option of monk or rogue levels for evasion. Mithral body would be a substitute, but I don't feel it'd be worth it since it adds nothing but a few AC.


I think I know who you are now. I was in a heroic gianthold group on Argo last night with a bladeforged using a twinblade and asking some of these same questions. I wasn't feeling very talkative then though sorry. :)

If you're not going for evasion I would say it partly depends on how high you can get your dodge. If you are going to be able to get a very high dodge that may be worth more than the extra PRR and AC from adamantine body.



4. As far as enhancements go, I think the defender tree has more useful things (+25 prr and some saves/ac is nice from the defender stance, which can be used with power attack). I have most of my points in KoTC, for more smites, more turns, and +2 charisma; the core enhancement are little more than fluff. I am trying out holy retribution, but in all honesty, I don't see it being that useful in epics without sorcerer-like charisma, especially since I won't be a pure paladin. Are there any super-useful or must-have abilities to get from KoTC I might have overlooked? Should I only use this tree for smites/turns and focus more on the defender, bladeforged, and kensei trees?

You didn't mention it so I would say make sure you take divine might from KoTC but that should be a given for basically any melee with paladin levels. Also at least the first tier of divine sacrifice is a nice damage boost, especially when you start using nightmares to offset the hitpoint cost.

unbongwah
11-20-2013, 12:01 PM
I severely dislike the idea of everybody and their mother splashing 2 monk levels and steer away from the herd mentality out of principle.
In this particular case, the herd has the right idea. But if you absolutely positively loathe monk splashes, what about rgr instead? If you were willing to LR, you could do pal 14 / rgr 4 / ftr 2; use the extra feats to pick up Manyshot and maybe IPS (depending on your base DEX, natch). Plus you gain +10% offhand from Tempest, Ram's Might, and some AA bonuses. And since you won't have Evasion, you can still take Addy body if you like.

Another option would be an arcane splash for some EK bonuses like +doublestrike.

2. Is oversized two-weapon fighting really necessary in higher/epic levels?
No.

3. Is the adamantine body feat worth getting?
Sorta? You're basically trading Dodge bonuses for more PRR. Well, and AC, ofc, but I'm not convinced it's worth it. I took it on my BF pally, but I dumped DEX on it; thought the extra PRR would come in handy.

HastyPudding
11-20-2013, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the replies! (^_^)/)

I don't think I'm going to take the 2 monk levels. If I did take them I would just end up with 2 martial feats I don't really need because if I LR'd I couldn't take those monk levels earlier (like take the 2 monk levels at level 4-6 instead of 17-18) and I'm not spending a ridiculous amount of TP on a +2 heart. That solves none of my feat problems and takes away 1 useful feat I could get from 2 fighter levels (along with not having 5 levels for the full kensei tree). 4 more fighter levels would solve my issues, where 2 monk/2fighter would not, unless OTWF isn't required, in which case I can reconfigure my feats to fit in quicken instead and not worry about the extra fighter feat, and just take dodge/mobility or something with the monk levels. But then there's the issue of being centered while using non-centered weapons.

After thinking about it, I have a couple scenarios to follow:

1. 14 paladin/4 fighter/2 monk:
Pros
- gain evasion
- gain dodge and mobility via monk martial feats
- can keep OTWF via a 3rd fighter bonus feat if needed
Cons
- cannot access any tier 5 fighter kensei enhancements
- keeping OTWF limits fighter kensei weapon focus damage line to tier 1
- uncentered using non-centered weapons (no stances, dodge bonuses, annoying debuff icon/message, annoying and unused ki bar, limited use of monk enhancements)
- having evasion requires heavier investment in reflexes (paladins are complicated enough)

2. 14 paladin/6 fighter
Pros
- 2 additional feats, allowing me to keep OTWF if needed
- access to tier 4 and a limited access to tier 5 fighter kensei enhancements
- solves all feat issues I'm having and gives some leeway for customization
Cons
- keeping OTWF limits fighter kensei weapon focus damage line to tier 2
- doesn't gain evasion, dodge, or mobility
- cannot gain full access to fighter kensei enhancements

I'm leaning towards the second option, more. It fixes all of my issues and doesn't give me the headache associated with monk technicalities.