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Choopak
11-19-2013, 02:51 PM
Sup guys, here's my take on the very good fighter/ cleric build from EllisDee37 (post in this very forum), design to play the same way, swinging a big nasty weapon while being able to self heal himself pretty good.
I started with a F12/P8, but realize 8 pally is pretty useless (except for 2nd level spells), so i pick up 2 cleric instead which allow me to get warpriest enhancements.
Note: this build is base on the iconic race: bladeforged because of their SLA to reconstruct.

The Purge

Fighter 12/ Paladin 6/ Cleric 2

Progression: P (no choice) F-F-P-F-F-C-P-F-F-P-F-C-F-P-F-P-F-F-F

Feats: toughness, power attack, cleave, stunning blow, great cleave, weapon focus, improved critical, weapon specialization, quicken, greater weapon focus, adamantine body, THF, imp THF, Grt THF

Bladeforged -17 AP
improved fortification I
warforged CON
improved fortification II
construct toughness
communion of scribing III
weapon attachment
power of the forge
warforged CON II
mproved fortification III

Kensai - 32 AP
kensai focus
spiritual bond
extra action boost III
kensai weapon specialization I
haste boost III
tactics III
kensai weapon specialization II
STR I
kensai weapon specialization III
STR II
kensai weapon specialization IV
keen edge

Knight of the Chalice - 19 AP
fiendslayer I
extra turning II
extra smite II
extra smite II
damage boost III
exalted smite III

Sacred Defender - 4 AP
holy bastion
extra lay on hands III

Warpriest - 8 AP

smite foe
divine might III
toughness
smite weakness

Offence: lots of feats, damage boost, haste boost, high STR, divine might, smite evil, spells (divine favor), bladesworn transformation.

Defense: lots of HP, bladeforged immunities, pally saves, good PRR (with adamantine body, pally enhancements), aura, buffs

Self healing: lots of lay on hands, auto reconstruct (can be use while in bladesworn form), spells, scrolls/ wand (UMD)

I'm probably forgetting stuff, but overall the synergy seems very good and this guy could really dish out damage, specially vs evil outsiders...

So this is the build... please feel free to comment and point flaws (not a build expert)

Choopak
11-19-2013, 05:15 PM
Come on guys, some input please... Can't build this on Lamania to test it, so need experience from others players to help me...

A_Sheep2
11-19-2013, 06:03 PM
Come on guys, some input please... Can't build this on Lamania to test it, so need experience from others players to help me...

Looks like it will go.

Failedlegend
11-19-2013, 10:00 PM
Why bother with Paladin and cleric (for healing as you said) if you have the BF Recon SLA?

Choopak
11-20-2013, 01:14 AM
Why bother with Paladin and cleric (for healing as you said) if you have the BF Recon SLA?

Not enough...
Pally levels are for smite evil, saves, bladesworn transformation, AND lay on hands for back up healing (you'll have about 8-9 of these)
Cleric level are for warpriest enhancements which get you smite foe, smite weakness and divine might.

Naera
11-20-2013, 06:00 AM
Not enough...
Pally levels are for smite evil, saves, bladesworn transformation, AND lay on hands for back up healing (you'll have about 8-9 of these)
Cleric level are for warpriest enhancements which get you smite foe, smite weakness and divine might.

I think you are overestimating the number of lay on hands, you get one at level 2 pally, and can take 3 more from sacred defender tree. The 3 more from US ED are impractical as it would eat a high level twist slot.
Damage boost (KoC) and haste boost (kensei) cannot be used at the same time.

2 cleric levels look like a waste to me, divine might is available to paladins also (with no sp cost attached), smite foe is a weak ability on it's own (+2W with 15 seconds CD), smite weakness is ok but doesn't justify the splash. Anyway, if you are set on this, FVS will be better than cleric - more sp & saves.

Monk is a better splash, even if you don't want to stay centered - evasion, 2 feats, also potential sneak attack, dodge
Rogue - evasion and UMD, some sneak attack, 3W attack with 6 seconds CD (if you really want more clickies)
Wizard - 1 extra feat (quicken or mental toughness), 10 PRR, 3% doublestrike

Asmodeus451
11-20-2013, 07:20 AM
last i checked, Adamantine Body disallows Evasion, so if he were to splash Rog or Monk, he'd have to drop Ada Body

Inoukchuk
11-20-2013, 08:54 AM
I think you are overestimating the number of lay on hands, you get one at level 2 pally, and can take 3 more from sacred defender tree. The 3 more from US ED are impractical as it would eat a high level twist slot.
Damage boost (KoC) and haste boost (kensei) cannot be used at the same time.

2 cleric levels look like a waste to me, divine might is available to paladins also (with no sp cost attached), smite foe is a weak ability on it's own (+2W with 15 seconds CD), smite weakness is ok but doesn't justify the splash. Anyway, if you are set on this, FVS will be better than cleric - more sp & saves.

Monk is a better splash, even if you don't want to stay centered - evasion, 2 feats, also potential sneak attack, dodge
Rogue - evasion and UMD, some sneak attack, 3W attack with 6 seconds CD (if you really want more clickies)
Wizard - 1 extra feat (quicken or mental toughness), 10 PRR, 3% doublestrike

I don't know about 3 more... what you would twist is endless LoH, which is a tier 3 and gives you LoH every 2 min or so, which is quite nice if you can spare the slot.

I agree though that monk is a better splash and this seems like a lot of redundant healing. Personally I find too many clickies very disruptive and therefor unusable (more than about 6 offensive clickies, + heals and boosts on one bar), so the idea of a bunch of smites added to my bar is less than appealing since I hit my limit just with cleaves + ED abilities. If I were to go that route I'd swap to pal 2/cleric 6 for ameliorating smites + pos energy burst + better heals, but really I'd rather just go 6 monk/2 paladin or 6 paladin/2 monk. Regardless, if going 6 paladin or 3+ cleric I'd be sure to get unyielding sovereignty regardless of any "flavor" issues. It's just that good.

Vellrad
11-20-2013, 09:06 AM
Maybe:
ftr 12
wiz 6
monk 2

For evasion, acces to EK, haste, etc.

You would need to use +1 LR heart however.

Asmodeus451
11-20-2013, 09:15 AM
actually Wiz 2 gets some very nice things for the build, mostly from EK.

Wiz itself gets you a metamagic feat (i'd suggest Extend for those short pally buffs, tho Quicken is also very attractive if it works on SLA Reconstruct) and some basic spells

EK gets you a nice cleave attack, some doublestrike (1st Core and T2 Martial Training), more AC (Mage Armor SLA), and more PRR (Shield SLA)

Toughness and Wand & Scroll Mastery are also attractive options


Overall i think Wiz 2 brings alot more to this build than Clr 2

unbongwah
11-20-2013, 11:28 AM
I don't know about 3 more... what you would twist is endless LoH, which is a tier 3 and gives you LoH every 2 min or so, which is quite nice if you can spare the slot.
The problem is LoHs scales w/pally lvls, so on this build your LoHs would only be worth 16 * CHA mod; say you had CHA 40, then it's 240 HPs per use. That might be enough to save your bacon while Reconstruct SLA is on cooldown, but it's not enough to qualify as "real" healing in epics.

ftr 12
wiz 6
monk 2
He would lose Divine Grace & Divine Might, though, which is unfortunate. I might recommend a Tukaw variant instead; something like monk 2 / pal 6 / sorc or wiz 12 would probably be pretty nice w/EK, with the added benefit of not having to squander an LR.

EK gets you a nice cleave attack, some doublestrike (1st Core and T2 Martial Training), more AC (Mage Armor SLA), and more PRR (Shield SLA)
I've only experimented a little w/EK so far; but the main drawback to Eldritch Strike is if you haven't invested in Force spellpower, the additional dmg is quite weak. Considering the 10 SP cost to use it, I would want to beef it up or ignore it. The extra doublestrike & PRR is nice, but I haven't decided if they're worth the AP cost. I've got a BF pal 15 / ftr 2 / wiz 1 at the moment; I might go to wiz 3 just to see what I can do with the extra EK enhs. Worst that happens I use my LR +20 to fix my build.

Toughness and Wand & Scroll Mastery are also attractive options
They're also available from Warpriest and Radiant Servant, respectively, so that's kind of a wash when it comes to cleric vs arcane splash.

Choopak
11-20-2013, 12:44 PM
I think you are overestimating the number of lay on hands, you get one at level 2 pally, and can take 3 more from sacred defender tree. The 3 more from US ED are impractical as it would eat a high level twist slot.
Damage boost (KoC) and haste boost (kensei) cannot be used at the same time.

2 cleric levels look like a waste to me, divine might is available to paladins also (with no sp cost attached), smite foe is a weak ability on it's own (+2W with 15 seconds CD), smite weakness is ok but doesn't justify the splash. Anyway, if you are set on this, FVS will be better than cleric - more sp & saves.

Monk is a better splash, even if you don't want to stay centered - evasion, 2 feats, also potential sneak attack, dodge
Rogue - evasion and UMD, some sneak attack, 3W attack with 6 seconds CD (if you really want more clickies)
Wizard - 1 extra feat (quicken or mental toughness), 10 PRR, 3% doublestrike

+1!

You might be right about LoH uses, maybe i put to much...
Got catch on damage boost and haste boost not been able to be used at the same time (human only...) could drop damage boost and use AP for something else (already have a damage boost with power of the forge)
Smite evil is definitively more powerful than smite foe (specially with exalted)
Good call on going FvS instead of cleric dho, open warpriest, more SP...

After reading your reply, kind of agree that 2 cleric is almost a waste, i tried to squeeze to much it seems...
Not set on anything yet, hence this post, love the feedback.
I like the fighter 12/ pally 6 core... for smite evil, saves, kensai goodies and bladesworn... rest 2 levels are open. I'm VIP, so access to all races/ classes.

Monk is not bad, but wouldn't go for the centered road, i like my armor and the PRR it give. Shadow veil is awesome!!!
Rogue would be doable, big boost in UMD, little sneak, evasion (could go mithril body instead of adamantine)
Wizard... this one i don't know, gonna have to look deeper, you have good arguments, lol

Choopak
11-20-2013, 12:48 PM
I don't know about 3 more... what you would twist is endless LoH, which is a tier 3 and gives you LoH every 2 min or so, which is quite nice if you can spare the slot.

I agree though that monk is a better splash and this seems like a lot of redundant healing. Personally I find too many clickies very disruptive and therefor unusable (more than about 6 offensive clickies, + heals and boosts on one bar), so the idea of a bunch of smites added to my bar is less than appealing since I hit my limit just with cleaves + ED abilities. If I were to go that route I'd swap to pal 2/cleric 6 for ameliorating smites + pos energy burst + better heals, but really I'd rather just go 6 monk/2 paladin or 6 paladin/2 monk. Regardless, if going 6 paladin or 3+ cleric I'd be sure to get unyielding sovereignty regardless of any "flavor" issues. It's just that good.

Wow you're right, it is a lot of clickies... And i wanted this build to be simple, lol!
Monk seems to be the "flavor of the year" class, almost every build has it...
Pally 6 is mandatory for bladesworn transformation, so is follower of the lord of the blade, so won't be able to pick unyielding sovereignty (a PDK version of this build would be...)

Choopak
11-20-2013, 12:53 PM
actually Wiz 2 gets some very nice things for the build, mostly from EK.

Wiz itself gets you a metamagic feat (i'd suggest Extend for those short pally buffs, tho Quicken is also very attractive if it works on SLA Reconstruct) and some basic spells

EK gets you a nice cleave attack, some doublestrike (1st Core and T2 Martial Training), more AC (Mage Armor SLA), and more PRR (Shield SLA)

Toughness and Wand & Scroll Mastery are also attractive options


Overall i think Wiz 2 brings alot more to this build than Clr 2

+1!

Hummm again, gonna have to look into that EK you're talking about, i thing i overlooked this path (not really into wizards, so i passed quickly)
I already took quicken, so extend is next logical choice.
If i go EK, do i have to drop adamantine body? if yes (since EK got shield SLA) free up another feat.
I must admit wizard look nicer and nicer, and the ability to be able to use wizard's wands/ scrolls is a sweet bonus.

Thanks for input man

unbongwah
11-20-2013, 02:06 PM
If i go EK, do i have to drop adamantine body? if yes (since EK got shield SLA) free up another feat.
No, but if you plan to use the SLAs or regular spells, you'll need to invest in ASF reduction; ASF doesn't appear to affect Eldritch Strike on my BF P15/F2/W1 above. BF/WF can pick up -15% ASF from racial tree; EK has up to -35% ASF, depending how deep into the tree you go; you can also use a ML:12/16/20 blue augment for another -5/10/15%.

Asmodeus451
11-20-2013, 02:25 PM
No, but if you plan to use the SLAs or regular spells, you'll need to invest in ASF reduction; ASF doesn't appear to affect Eldritch Strike on my BF P15/F2/W1 above. BF/WF can pick up -15% ASF from racial tree; EK has up to -35% ASF, depending how deep into the tree you go; you can also use a ML:12/16/20 blue augment for another -5/10/15%.

not to mention that ASF is not that big a deal if you're just using SP for buffs. invest in some ASF anyway, cuz 35% from addy body is a bit high, but dont go crazy trying to get it down to 0 and forgo spending AP on other things just to get 0 ASF (UNLESS it applies to your heals as well, in which case you NEED 0 ASF)

Choopak
11-20-2013, 02:40 PM
not to mention that ASF is not that big a deal if you're just using SP for buffs. invest in some ASF anyway, cuz 35% from addy body is a bit high, but dont go crazy trying to get it down to 0 and forgo spending AP on other things just to get 0 ASF (UNLESS it applies to your heals as well, in which case you NEED 0 ASF)

Could always go for mithril body, or no body feat at all if mage armor is enough (i think EK have enhancements that boost mage armor, no?)


No, but if you plan to use the SLAs or regular spells, you'll need to invest in ASF reduction; ASF doesn't appear to affect Eldritch Strike on my BF P15/F2/W1 above. BF/WF can pick up -15% ASF from racial tree; EK has up to -35% ASF, depending how deep into the tree you go; you can also use a ML:12/16/20 blue augment for another -5/10/15%.

I'll use blue bar mostly for buffs...

The goal was to recreate ElliDee37 fighter/cleric build on a bladeforged platform, using BF reconstruct SLA and pally smites for upping DPS.
Going pally 6 has others benefits: LoH, better saves, high HP, full BaB, AND bladesworn transformation. The ability to bladesworn and be able to self heal is hard to pass...
The more i read, the more i see that a fighter/wizard 12/8 would be appropriate for a bladeforged (can cast reconstruct, better buffs (haste baby), EK path seems equal to warpriest for DPS)
Loosing bladesworn, pally HP and saves hurt the whole survavibility of the build...
Hummmmm torn ;)

unbongwah
11-20-2013, 03:22 PM
Could always go for mithril body, or no body feat at all if mage armor is enough (i think EK have enhancements that boost mage armor, no?)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Wizard_Eldritch_Knight_enhancements

Imp Mage Armor and Imp Shield boost your AC % and PRR, respectively; it's unclear to me if the bonuses only apply to the SLAs or to the regular spells as well. Why does that matter? Because you can cast Shield from wands, which have no ASF, so it'd be a handy way of bypassing that for a while.

Mithril Body kinda sucks because the MDB doesn't scale at higher levels the way light armors do; so your AC from DEX & Dodge bonus are always capped. You can raise the MDB with, e.g., Gtr Nimbleness or Mobility, but it's still suboptimal.

I'll use blue bar mostly for buffs...
Any spell with a somatic component is subject to ASF, inc. most buffs. Sure, you can stand there wasting SPs until you beat ASF on all your buffs, but why would you want to?

The more i read, the more i see that a fighter/wizard 12/8 would be more appropriate for a bladeforged (can cast reconstruct, better buffs (haste baby), EK path seems equal to warpriest for DPS)
Unless you really want lvl 4 spells, I'd probably do ftr 12 / pal 2 / sorc or wiz 6; keep Divine Grace and if you Twist in Bane of Undeath you can use Divine Might, too.

Choopak
11-20-2013, 06:49 PM
http://ddowiki.com/page/Wizard_Eldritch_Knight_enhancements

Imp Mage Armor and Imp Shield boost your AC % and PRR, respectively; it's unclear to me if the bonuses only apply to the SLAs or to the regular spells as well. Why does that matter? Because you can cast Shield from wands, which have no ASF, so it'd be a handy way of bypassing that for a while.

Mithril Body kinda sucks because the MDB doesn't scale at higher levels the way light armors do; so your AC from DEX & Dodge bonus are always capped. You can raise the MDB with, e.g., Gtr Nimbleness or Mobility, but it's still suboptimal.

Any spell with a somatic component is subject to ASF, inc. most buffs. Sure, you can stand there wasting SPs until you beat ASF on all your buffs, but why would you want to?

Unless you really want lvl 4 spells, I'd probably do ftr 12 / pal 2 / sorc or wiz 6; keep Divine Grace and if you Twist in Bane of Undeath you can use Divine Might, too.

Thanks for mage armor and shield clarifications

You might be right on ASF, better not have any if i intend to cast arcane spells.

F12/P6/?? like i said, pally 6 give alot, but pally 8... not that much, so open to suggetions on these. And waiting on twist/ epic for divine might is way to long for me...

keep up the feed back boys, good discussions so far.

Choopak
11-21-2013, 04:12 PM
Hi guys

After reading much, and taking your feedback into account, i wonder if a F12/W5/P3 would not work better...
You'll loose bladesworn tranformation (the only reason to go 6 levels in pally) BUT would still have:
Pally: smite evil (exalted), LoH, saves!, divine might (finely a useful use for turn undead)
Fighter: all the kensai goodies, as before
Wizard: mage armor and shield upgrade as SLA, lot more mana, 2 bonus feats, eldritch strike, arcane barrier (contingency), martial training AND 2 of the best spells; haste and displacement.

Bladesworn tranformation give you: +4 profane bonus to STR, +4 damage, + 4 AC, +10 will save, full BaB... overall i think it's an acceptable lost...

What you think? Will this hurt my DPS/ HP, BaB to much? or would i be better off?
I wish i was a build expert... but i'm not! so asking for your gameplay experience and theocracy in build design.
Thanks for your help so far, made me think and rethink my Purge (will probably change the name also, LOL)

Choopak
11-27-2013, 04:43 AM
Hi guys

After reading much, and taking your feedback into account, i wonder if a F12/W5/P3 would not work better...
You'll loose bladesworn tranformation (the only reason to go 6 levels in pally) BUT would still have:
Pally: smite evil (exalted), LoH, saves!, divine might (finely a useful use for turn undead)
Fighter: all the kensai goodies, as before
Wizard: mage armor and shield upgrade as SLA, lot more mana, 2 bonus feats, eldritch strike, arcane barrier (contingency), martial training AND 2 of the best spells; haste and displacement.

Bladesworn tranformation give you: +4 profane bonus to STR, +4 damage, + 4 AC, +10 will save, full BaB... overall i think it's an acceptable lost...

What you think? Will this hurt my DPS/ HP, BaB to much? or would i be better off?
I wish i was a build expert... but i'm not! so asking for your gameplay experience and theocracy in build design.
Thanks for your help so far, made me think and rethink my Purge (will probably change the name also, LOL)

Little update guys, my guildy tried my original version (lol of all he could choose) the fgt12/ pally8 and he's loving it!
Start as a level 15 (iconic TR from 2 fgt past life) so far F9/P6 and here's the feed back he gave me:
Saves are high, except reflex... but better than most
High HP, PRR (adamantine body + enhancements)
Healing is easy with reconstruct SLA every 6 sec, (use LoH on fleshy only)
Smite evil is nasty, cirt 14-20, x5 damage!!! (imagine an ESoS, crit 13-20, x6) and with 6 of them, he smite every 15 sec (same cooldown as smite foe)
Most of his abilities can be use while bladesworn transformation is on (for even more damage and resistance)
Simple build (2 class split) not to many clickies (smite evil, haste boost, power of forge)
Play style is really straightforward = you see a mob, you charge it, smite it, it's dead... pally like
The major drawback = no range (range that can kill high HP mobs)
Healing amp sucks (more on bladeforged than regular warforged) good thing you have your SLA to compensate.

Well that's it, i'll come back when he's level 20, or if i decide to try one myself (was still trying to fine tune it, but he got the jump on me, hehe)