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HuneyMunster
11-13-2013, 07:45 AM
Anyone come up with a decent build yet?

I'm thinking 18/2 Sorcerer/Fighter or a Paladin/Monk splash.

18 Sorcerer gives you a level 9 spell so minimizes any hit to spell DC's. 17 or 15 sorcerer 1 fighter and 2 monk and/or paladin gives either evasion and extra martial feats and/or good saves. But -1 or -2 spell DC's.

Maybe either dual wielding Nightmare, the Fallen Moon bastard swords, sword and board or use great swords.

LevelJ
11-13-2013, 09:13 PM
First off, I like the idea of PDK...hadn't thought of that as an option for EdK (or whatever the established abbreviation is for it, just gonna use EdK)

One question though...as an EdK, are spell DC's really necessary? Seems to me that if a character is going to worry about Spell DC's, the feats that take up minimize their melee potential...unless I'm missing a key component there.

Guess the main issue here is the healing part for a PDK/EdK. Kinda hard to wield a scroll while swinging a sword. Cocoon/Healing Spring are the obvious ones I guess, the only things I can think of. I guess some paladin/fvs splashing might help, but I confess I know little of those classes. My main experience is with Sorcs and Wizzys, but I like the possibilities of the EdK.

-Jayron

AtomicMew
11-14-2013, 03:41 AM
Generalists are really bad and don't work. You need to specialize either melee or offensive spellcasting. If you're going for eldritch knight, that means you're going for melee and simplyleveraging several unique support abilities that arcanes bring to the table:

1) quickened reconstruct
2) extended haste/displacement
3) wings
4) no-save CC (ice storm, maybe solid or acid fog)
5) ddoor

There's really not much more to it than that, and you only need 12 arcane levels for all of the above.

HuneyMunster
11-14-2013, 05:07 AM
Generalists are really bad and don't work. You need to specialize either melee or offensive spellcasting. If you're going for eldritch knight, that means you're going for melee and simplyleveraging several unique support abilities that arcanes bring to the table:

1) quickened reconstruct
2) extended haste/displacement
3) wings
4) no-save CC (ice storm, maybe solid or acid fog)
5) ddoor

There's really not much more to it than that, and you only need 12 arcane levels for all of the above.

First point is that PDK are human so no reconstruct.

I wouldn't go less than 16 sorcerer levels as Otto's Irresistible Dance is too good to miss when in melee on hard hitting ee mobs.

So Im thinking a 16/2/2 with a choice between monk and paladin as 3rd class.


This is what I have for a THF 36pt build.

str 16 (+5 tome required)
dex 8
con 16 (+5 tome required)
int 8
wis 8
cha 18

2 level ups in strength rest in charisma.

Feats in no particular order.
1 toughness
1h thf
1f cleave
2f power attack
3 ithf
6 gthf
9 great cleave
12 imp crit slash
15 quicken
18 maximize
21 epic toughness
24 overwhelming crit
26 pthf
27 ruin/empower
28 hellball/20 force/fire

Also 2 more martial if taking monk levels. With a 3rd of Charisma mod added to tactics DC stunning blow may be useful choice.

Epic Destiny Draconic

Draconic Presence 3/3
Energy Shealth Electrical 3/3
Go Out With A Bang 3/3
Dragon Heritage 2/3
Dragon Spell Knowledge 2/3
Daunting Roar
Energy Burst 3/3
Energy Vortex
Dragon Breath
Charisma x2

Twists choices among others
Lay Waste
Momentous Swing
Rejuv
Boulder Toss
Legendary Tactics

Probably best choice is fire and wear Sage's Spectacles for destiny abilities. Other option is electrical and use Iron Beads.

Rusty_Can
11-14-2013, 06:40 AM
First point is that PDK are human so no reconstruct.


Just spitballing: 3 Artificer levels would qualify you for Construct Essence (http://ddowiki.com/page/Construct_Essence) and give you full UMD. However, many players would consider the build (very) weird.

Benthamite
11-15-2013, 03:07 AM
First point is that PDK are human so no reconstruct.

I wouldn't go less than 16 sorcerer levels as Otto's Irresistible Dance is too good to miss when in melee on hard hitting ee mobs.

So Im thinking a 16/2/2 with a choice between monk and paladin as 3rd class.


This is what I have for a THF 36pt build.

str 16 (+5 tome required)
dex 8
con 16 (+5 tome required)
int 8
wis 8
cha 18

2 level ups in strength rest in charisma.

Feats in no particular order.
1 toughness
1h thf
1f cleave
2f power attack
3 ithf
6 gthf
9 great cleave
12 imp crit slash
15 quicken
18 maximize
21 epic toughness
24 overwhelming crit
26 pthf
27 ruin/empower
28 hellball/20 force/fire

Also 2 more martial if taking monk levels. With a 3rd of Charisma mod added to tactics DC stunning blow may be useful choice.

Epic Destiny Draconic

Draconic Presence 3/3
Energy Shealth Electrical 3/3
Go Out With A Bang 3/3
Dragon Heritage 2/3
Dragon Spell Knowledge 2/3
Daunting Roar
Energy Burst 3/3
Energy Vortex
Dragon Breath
Charisma x2

Twists choices among others
Lay Waste
Momentous Swing
Rejuv
Boulder Toss
Legendary Tactics

Probably best choice is fire and wear Sage's Spectacles for destiny abilities. Other option is electrical and use Iron Beads.

Otto's irresistable is garbage, ice storm is better.

First, it's single target, which means reconstruct functions as the same thing. Get more DPS and learn to position and then you won't even think about using **** single target CC. There are too many awesome splashes with 6-8 levels of various melee classes which actually play to your strength, instead of making you a weaker melee with crappy CC.

AtomicMew
11-15-2013, 03:20 AM
First point is that PDK are human so no reconstruct.

I wouldn't go less than 16 sorcerer levels as Otto's Irresistible Dance is too good to miss when in melee on hard hitting ee mobs.

So Im thinking a 16/2/2 with a choice between monk and paladin as 3rd class.


This is what I have for a THF 36pt build.

str 16 (+5 tome required)
dex 8
con 16 (+5 tome required)
int 8
wis 8
cha 18

2 level ups in strength rest in charisma.

Feats in no particular order.
1 toughness
1h thf
1f cleave
2f power attack
3 ithf
6 gthf
9 great cleave
12 imp crit slash
15 quicken
18 maximize
21 epic toughness
24 overwhelming crit
26 pthf
27 ruin/empower
28 hellball/20 force/fire

Also 2 more martial if taking monk levels. With a 3rd of Charisma mod added to tactics DC stunning blow may be useful choice.

Epic Destiny Draconic

Draconic Presence 3/3
Energy Shealth Electrical 3/3
Go Out With A Bang 3/3
Dragon Heritage 2/3
Dragon Spell Knowledge 2/3
Daunting Roar
Energy Burst 3/3
Energy Vortex
Dragon Breath
Charisma x2

Twists choices among others
Lay Waste
Momentous Swing
Rejuv
Boulder Toss
Legendary Tactics

Probably best choice is fire and wear Sage's Spectacles for destiny abilities. Other option is electrical and use Iron Beads.

Assuming you're actually trying to build a strong high end build, you're doing it wrong. Stop trying to be a hybrid and pick a focus of either melee or or spellcasting. Draconic Incarnation isn't even a good spell casting epic destiny. The way you're building you won't be good at anything and it'll just be a flavor build. Otto's irresistable is not needed, it's not very good. There is no way you should be going PDK or human when you have quickened reconstruct available to you. Pick a 12/6/2 splash and focus on melee damage. Or if you want to have offensive casting, go with any number of builds posted already without Eldritch Knight.

Asmodeus451
11-15-2013, 03:20 AM
why not LR out the FTR lvl and go 16/2/2 Sorc/Pal/Monk?

same number of feats, higher saves, and Evasion

Tilomere
11-15-2013, 01:11 PM
why not LR out the FTR lvl and go 16/2/2 Sorc/Pal/Monk?

same number of feats, higher saves, and Evasion


16/2/2 Sorc/Pal/Monk con based earth savant for earthgrab.
Bladeforged with reconstruct SLA? Dwarf with Axe/Con to Damage? PW:Stun backup, and whatever destiny you want? Twist Sense Weakness?

Failedlegend
11-15-2013, 02:25 PM
Mew your telling him to stop building an EK as a Hybrid...EKs inherent nature IS a hybrid...this is something the devs failed miserably at though and unfortunately EK is really weak beyond the first few abilities and the lack of Int/Cha to atk/dmg basically forces EKs to be PDK Sorcs.

OP just ignore the people who think EE is the only thing that matters give me a bit to look over your build and I'll try to offer some actual legitimate advice instead of just saying "your doing it wrong"

AtomicMew
11-15-2013, 05:50 PM
Mew your telling him to stop building an EK as a Hybrid...EKs inherent nature IS a hybrid...this is something the devs failed miserably at though and unfortunately EK is really weak beyond the first few abilities and the lack of Int/Cha to atk/dmg basically forces EKs to be PDK Sorcs.

OP just ignore the people who think EE is the only thing that matters give me a bit to look over your build and I'll try to offer some actual legitimate advice instead of just saying "your doing it wrong"

No it's not inherently a hybrid, it's not inherently anything. The fact is, the eldritch knight is stronger if you focus on melee. Have fun playing a build that is not necessarily the strongest (I do as well) but a hybrid in this case won't be as good as a focused melee build that simply takes advantage of arcane utility.

In fact, hybrids are generally so bad in current meta, that not even the juggernaut was a hybrid, since it completely avoided its strongest offensive spell, blade barrier yet had the full 16 caster levels. I wouldn't even classify druid/monks as true hybrids, since the only offensive spell used is generally sleetquake for CC.

I don't know how you can say my advice is not legitimate. That sounds like opinionated BS to me, so what makes your opinion better than mine? Especially when what I'm saying is correct.

Rush007
11-15-2013, 07:32 PM
No it's not inherently a hybrid, it's not inherently anything. The fact is, the eldritch knight is stronger if you focus on melee. Have fun playing a build that is not necessarily the strongest (I do as well) but a hybrid in this case won't be as good as a focused melee build that simply takes advantage of arcane utility.

In fact, hybrids are generally so bad in current meta, that not even the juggernaut was a hybrid, since it completely avoided its strongest offensive spell, blade barrier yet had the full 16 caster levels. I wouldn't even classify druid/monks as true hybrids, since the only offensive spell used is generally sleetquake for CC.

I don't know how you can say my advice is not legitimate. That sounds like opinionated BS to me, so what makes your opinion better than mine? Especially when what I'm saying is correct.

I don't see anything wrong with purposed build. What is it you would change to make it more melee? Majority of the feats are already melee, CHA for damage, hits strength just enough for OC, saves from paladin, monk. Casting ability is a bonus. Lack of self healing is the only negative but just like everyone else twist cocoon and jump around.

AtomicMew
11-15-2013, 08:28 PM
There are two large flaws with this build.

The biggest is that he's taking a casting epic destiny and combining it with a melee focused build. That just leads to dilution and a weak build. The second flaw is PDK. PDK is a trap and not worth it. You can just go STR based and save AP, save a twist slot, have better self healing and a bunch of still useful immunities. Even if you don't go STR based, most of the stat boosts are coming from items, so the small gain from PDK is really, really marginal compared to the massive loss in defense.

So basically, to save this build:

1) Warforged or bladeforged
2) Melee-focused destiny

Failedlegend
11-15-2013, 09:53 PM
Ok we Mew we get it, YOU don't like this kind of build clearly the OP (and many others) do otherwise the devs never would have added EK so please stop posting unless you have anything helpful to say.

Anyways to the OP whilst I LOVE multi-classing (I'm serious even if a capstone or other lvl 20 ability is vastly superior I love making it into some abomination that doesn't quite reach the single class build but is close and more versatile) unfortunately we don't have alot of the feats from PnP that help this and unfortunately spellcasters are hit the hardest so I wouldn't drop more than a few levels for multi-classing...personally I'd go Sorc18/Paladin2 if your willing to spend $ on the LR+1 or if this is a TR build...otherwise Sorc17/PDK1/Pally2 is your best bet...with the shield deflection feat (from PDK) and your inevitably massive saves evasion is less important.

Now I would go Cha/Con Based with a side of Dex...PA/C/GC/OC is nice but you really don't have the feat room for it.

Here's what I'd go with

Lawful-Good PDK Sorc18/Pally2 (EK/Earth Savant)

Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10 (+2 int tome for more points in balance)
Cha 18 (Lvl ups here)

34pt build:Int 12 36pt:Int 12/Dex14

Skills: UMD,Concen, Balance

Feats

PDK Shield Mastery
1 Maximize
2 Empower
3 IC:Slashing (or IC:Pierce if you prefer Shortswords)
4 ISM
5 ISB
6 Combat Expertise
7 SF: UMD (or PL:Wiz if avail)
ED Draconic Incarnation
21 Bulwark of Defense
24 Great Charisma
26 Epic Mage Armor or Guardian Angel
27 Epic Reflexes or Ruin
28 Hellball


Couple points about feats I didn't add:

- Quicken: It's nice to have but far less useful to a fleshy caster if you learn how to jump cast you'll rarely have issues with spellcasting midbattle.

- THF Line+Bastard Sword: The DPS you get from this line is so miniscule I'd only take it if it was a single feat that scaled with character level let alone wasting a 4th feat of weapon prof being limited to bastard swords as your primary weapon would not be good either (although if your forced to go 17/2/1 you can use that fighter lvl to get B-Sword prof so you can use all 3 1-handed PDK weapons)

- PA/C/GC/OC is nice but you really don't have the feat room for it let alone it being a massive waste of build points

- Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Whirlwind: Not enough feat space otherwise this would be awesome.

burningwind
11-15-2013, 10:49 PM
first: sorc are feat strave
second: as pdk sorc you have no ability to self healing

so either way your casting ability will be...hmm.. not as good.. at least..

serious edk tree seem totally worthless to me.. at least for pure build.. if you are melee splash build? am not so sure.. but imo splashing wiz/sorc may not be the best idea..

forest60
11-16-2013, 10:50 AM
I'm trying to find a way to make EK work as well. I like the PDK idea using CHA as your melee stat however I think the responses here are correct in that you need to focus on melee OR nuking (and as an EK I guess melee is the choice.) You could, however, go the no DC caster route but then you aren't using those EK powers so what is the point?

Using PDK I'm looking at some sort of Sorc/FvS/Pal mix to get that healing, I know there is synergy there somewhere with EK and Warpriest I just wish Ron's planner was updated so I could really see it side by side.

Regarding Shield Bash vs. THF, does the bash only proc when blocking? I don't typically shield block. I was thinking something along the lines of Shield Mastery, PA, cleave, gcleave, THF, bastard sword (maybe gimpy longsword with fvs?)

Also not totally convinced PDK is better than just dumping fvs and going WF/BF.

I love the IDEA of EK I just can't find its real strengths...feels like a druid wolf build without the bonus alacrity.

Saravis
11-16-2013, 11:08 AM
I'm trying to find a way to make EK work as well. I like the PDK idea using CHA as your melee stat however I think the responses here are correct in that you need to focus on melee OR nuking (and as an EK I guess melee is the choice.) You could, however, go the no DC caster route but then you aren't using those EK powers so what is the point?

Using PDK I'm looking at some sort of Sorc/FvS/Pal mix to get that healing, I know there is synergy there somewhere with EK and Warpriest I just wish Ron's planner was updated so I could really see it side by side.

Regarding Shield Bash vs. THF, does the bash only proc when blocking? I don't typically shield block. I was thinking something along the lines of Shield Mastery, PA, cleave, gcleave, THF, bastard sword (maybe gimpy longsword with fvs?)

Also not totally convinced PDK is better than just dumping fvs and going WF/BF.

I love the IDEA of EK I just can't find its real strengths...feels like a druid wolf build without the bonus alacrity.

If you plan on using a weapon that's available as one of the favored weapons, there's that. Beyond that, the only synergy is with Divine Might, but that's also available in Paladin. There's, maybe, Ameliorating Strike for some self-sufficiency, but not sure how reliable that is and you'd have to go 4 FvS for it. If I were making a Sorc EK, I'd go either Sorc/Pal/Fight if I was planning on going sword and board with medium/heavy armor or Sorc/Pal/Monk if I was planning on going light or no armor with evasion and maybe stances.

I'm looking at a Wiz/Monk/Fight build as a Q-Staff Henshin Wraith Eldritch Knight. There's some good synergy between Henshin and Eldritch; extra spellpower, elemental weaknesses, any q-staff as an implement.

forest60
11-16-2013, 11:49 AM
I'm looking at a Wiz/Monk/Fight build as a Q-Staff Henshin Wraith Eldritch Knight. There's some good synergy between Henshin and Eldritch; extra spellpower, elemental weaknesses, any q-staff as an implement.

I like that idea. What level splits do you envision with it? edit: scratch that, have to go 12 wiz for wraith and 6 monk for Qstaff as implement, so I guess 12/6/2

To the original idea, you could do Sorc/Monk/Fight if using PDK (still no healing) or go WF/BF (back to paladin likely) and heal all day (gives up Wraith from the Wiz idea though).

Arianka
11-16-2013, 02:03 PM
Atomic is right. the rest of u are wrong.

lethargos
11-18-2013, 02:02 PM
Atomic is right. the rest of u are wrong.

Arianka is wrong. There is no right or wrong.

Lifespawn
11-18-2013, 08:24 PM
i didn't want to post up my idea because i don't want it to be a fotm build but i'll give the premise.


where does massive dps matter? boss fights a pdk ek has for cormyr and can use it when it matters if built well it will add 15-20 to base damage to all party members for 2 minutes there is nothing else that can add 20 to your base damage like that and that is party wide.

self healing at lvl 17 i have 4 loh that hit for 250 and will have endless loh twisted in with amp and more cha that should top over 350 .

i skipped the thf feats on mine and chose max/emp/quicken instead because i have cleave gc lay waste eldrich strike and eldrich tempest to do aoe damage along with ice storm.

polar ray and full dots also help on single target dps haste rage displacement are obviously must have and use

with a 50 cha the saves will be plenty damage will not be as high at all times as a pure str build but the benefits and possible single target dps bonus outweighs it imo

Benthamite
11-19-2013, 01:05 AM
Boss fights easily last 10-20 minutes (EE what goes up, EE study in sable etc).

An enhancement where you need to be under 50% HP to use is going to be a huge PITA.

Bladeforged has much more consistent and better overall damage boosts than PDK.

Lonnbeimnech
11-19-2013, 01:32 AM
i didn't want to post up my idea because i don't want it to be a fotm build but i'll give the premise.


where does massive dps matter? boss fights a pdk ek has for cormyr and can use it when it matters if built well it will add 15-20 to base damage to all party members for 2 minutes there is nothing else that can add 20 to your base damage like that and that is party wide.

self healing at lvl 17 i have 4 loh that hit for 250 and will have endless loh twisted in with amp and more cha that should top over 350 .

i skipped the thf feats on mine and chose max/emp/quicken instead because i have cleave gc lay waste eldrich strike and eldrich tempest to do aoe damage along with ice storm.

polar ray and full dots also help on single target dps haste rage displacement are obviously must have and use

with a 50 cha the saves will be plenty damage will not be as high at all times as a pure str build but the benefits and possible single target dps bonus outweighs it imo

Cocoon is far more endless than endless loh.

Lifespawn
11-19-2013, 06:57 PM
Cocoon is far more endless than endless loh.

of course it is but i was responding to the comment about not being able to heal themselves there is more than one option

Lifespawn
11-19-2013, 06:58 PM
Boss fights easily last 10-20 minutes (EE what goes up, EE study in sable etc).

An enhancement where you need to be under 50% HP to use is going to be a huge PITA.

Bladeforged has much more consistent and better overall damage boosts than PDK.

it's not that hard to get to 50% health and still be safe 10 min fight sure but 20 more damage to all will cut that down significantly over a 2 min time period

thesnoman
11-20-2013, 05:57 AM
Due to the synergy between Fire Savant and Angle of Vengeance, why not try a PDK Eldritch Knight with Sorc and FvS Levels.

I'd also look into PDK/Sorc/Pally - not sure which would be best.

Either way - Sorc would be just a splash - not your main class - you'd get to use Charisma for fighting or for Casting (the little you'd do) - and I think you'd either go S&B with bastard swords or THF with Greatswords.

If I ever have the time I'll look into this type of build - I'm thinking that a 12 Sorc/2 Pal/6 FVS Bladeforged would be a better choice if you wanted a build with Sorc as the primary class.

Just some thoughts

Asmodeus451
11-20-2013, 06:07 AM
I'm thinking that a 12 Sorc/4 PDK/4 FVS Bladeforged

umm. hate to burst ur bubble but PDK and Bladeforged are both Iconic races. you cant be both

thesnoman
11-20-2013, 03:54 PM
umm. hate to burst ur bubble but PDK and Bladeforged are both Iconic races. you cant be both

Thanks for the catch - bad Typo - was supposed to be Pally (Hence Bladeforged), not PDK. - fixed it in my original post

MagicBlade
11-21-2013, 01:47 PM
Generalists are really bad and don't work. You need to specialize either melee or offensive spellcasting. If you're going for eldritch knight, that means you're going for melee and simplyleveraging several unique support abilities that arcanes bring to the table:

1) quickened reconstruct
2) extended haste/displacement
3) wings
4) no-save CC (ice storm, maybe solid or acid fog)
5) ddoor

There's really not much more to it than that, and you only need 12 arcane levels for all of the above.

I think that with this new tree for wizards and sorcerers, a hybrid might become possible, regardless of past attempts at creating such a character.

LOOON375
11-21-2013, 01:57 PM
My pure first life WF Sorc is doing amazingly well even in EE content as an Eldritch Knight. I have to say that it just simply kicks ass, and it's one of my favorite toons to play.

I rerolled mine and built it the same way I would a fighter or barb.

I partially dumped Cha, and maxed Str. I see absolutely no reason to put a bunch of points in Cha.

Melee or nothing. And it's very survivable.

Lifespawn
11-21-2013, 03:23 PM
My pure first life WF Sorc is doing amazingly well even in EE content as an Eldritch Knight. I have to say that it just simply kicks ass, and it's one of my favorite toons to play.

I rerolled mine and built it the same way I would a fighter or barb.

I partially dumped Cha, and maxed Str. I see absolutely no reason to put a bunch of points in Cha.

Melee or nothing. And it's very survivable.


mine has everything yours does except easier self healing but also has dc's and way more sp

Clatterfist
11-21-2013, 05:42 PM
The combination that suggests itself to me for a PDK Eldritch Knight is Fighter 6 / Sorcerer 14.

Why?

Well, you're giving up the ability to self-heal, so you'll need to be fairly tank if you're going to survive. This is doubly true for a character type that requires sorcerer levels and strongly implies fighter levels, because it makes evasion a real detour on a character that's already going to be heavily split. So, how to be tanky on a Fighter/Sorcerer? This sounds like a job for sword and board!

Then it's a question of how many Sorcerer levels we need. The major advantage of going PDK is that we can use Charisma for both casting and combat. So, we're gonna want to have DC-based magic that can matter, or at least aim for it. That means we need to be able to reach a caster level of 18 in order to Heighten our spells to their full base DC. We can get +5 from an arcane Epic Destiny and maybe another +1 or +2 here and there, but we also need a relevant spell or two to Heighten. Taking 14 Sorcerer levels works for that: Evocation gets Prismatic Spray, Enchantment gets Disco Ball, Necromancy gets Finger of Death. All good options.

That leaves 6 levels for Fighter, which is just enough to get Stalwart Defense stance and achieve some of that tankiness. It also gives us four bonus feats to play with, which is going to be really important if we're going to validate that Charisma-double-duty decision and keep both our magic and our martial abilities meaningful.

What magical feats do we need? There's no point in doing this if we don't strive for high DCs, so we need Heighten, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Arcane Initiate (assuming PL: Wizard).
What martial feats do we need? Improved Shield Bashing, Shield Mastery, and Improved Shield Mastery are pretty much essential for the conscientious sword and board character.
How many feats do we have? 1 for being a human, +7 that everyone gets, +4 from fighter. That's a total of 12 pre-epic, which leaves us five after the above selections.

Now, there are several ways to go here: if specialising in enchantment or necromancy then we'll need Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration. If we want to use magical damage above and beyond our Eldritch Knight explosion cleaves then we'll want to consider Maximise and Empower. If we want to improve our melee then it's Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Two Handed Fighting, Improved Two Handed Fighting, and Greater Two Handed Fighting. And we should probably pick up a combat stance: Power Attack if we don't want to increase our spell cooldowns, or Combat Expertise or Resilience if we don't mind so much. If we go Power Attack along with Spell Penetration or something, and can't afford / don't want to get involved with Bastard Swords, then it's time to think about Cleave and Great Cleave, or Improved Critical.

Enhancements wise, it'll be Eldritch Knight primary and T5, with Stalwart Defender as the main secondary tree. Savant, Kensai, and racial tree are all available to flavour to taste. Some of the basic synergy includes Shield Expertise to generate more hit points with Eldritch Shield, and Hardy Defense on top of Tenser's Transformation for a total Constitution bump of +10.

I've no idea whether or not the resulting character would be cool or fun to play, but that's how my analysis breaks down. It's an interesting possibility.

IWPlatinumPlatypus
12-04-2013, 03:46 PM
I don't know how you can say my advice is not legitimate. That sounds like opinionated BS to me, so what makes your opinion better than mine? Especially when what I'm saying is correct.

....If you're saying that your "opinion" is the correct "opinion" then it's not an opinion at all. No one opinion is correct and if there is then it's not an opinion.

I suggest you guys agree to disagree, because no one's opinion is better than any other...that's the beauty of an opinion.

Keep it kosher!

Teh_Ghoul
12-04-2013, 03:52 PM
When a person can't complete anything more than casual or normal their opinion is wrong.

Scrag
12-04-2013, 04:21 PM
I responded in the 6/14? thread about this, and just want to repost here after further playtesting tonight.

A 32 point (2 trs in) drow 14bard/5sorc/1 cleric gets you everything the OP seems to want, except for the somewhat useful +33% char mod bonus to your tactical feats. However, that is a small price to pay imo for 2 more points in charisma, and weapon training/ambidex. Since you end up being a sparkly fighter, might as well go for max sparkle. Bards get +spellpower, +spell points, buffs galore, songs, and everything else non-damage you would hope for from sorc. 14 levels of bard gets you your greater heroism you might want from sorc, along with summon monster 5, cure crit, empowered healing, etc etc etc. It is totally possible to run with a mid-high 30s strength AND cha permanently (divine might ftmfw) _at level 13_. Add in legendary dreadnaught for lay waste and company, better tactical feats, action boosts, and nice crit bonuses, and you can really kick some ass.

It, however, can't trap. -_-

(edit: i have a +5 sup tome, so that accounts for some of my stat bonuses at 13....)

darthhento
12-04-2013, 06:03 PM
All I can say is that I've tested FailedLegend's build suggestion and it's a deathtrap for anything other than epic normal. Do not make that build if you plan on doing epic hard or epic elite.

Crann
12-04-2013, 07:00 PM
When a person can't complete anything more than casual or normal their opinion is wrong.

Not wrong....just irrelevant in a conversation about EE builds.

There should be two separate forums for character builds....EE and everything else, because thats what this game seems to be now.

Not sure which you were looking for OP, but in a nutshell....everyone is right. Your build's gonna do fine in Normal content, because any build will.

In EE, not so much.

Failedlegend
12-05-2013, 12:04 AM
All I can say is that I've tested FailedLegend's build suggestion and it's a deathtrap for anything other than epic normal. Do not make that build if you plan on doing epic hard or epic elite.

To be fair the S&B Sorc build I haven't actually played I've played a Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2 Dwarf S&B build and a PDK Sorc18/Pally2 THF build and both worked just fine in EE solo, duo and full group and this was all before EK was released...I will continue to play odd builds because its fun and honestly I don build for EH or EE if it can handle it awesome. if not I don't worry about it.

Alot of people could care less if their build works in EE or not so don;t act like their wrong for doing that....its not the end all to be all...personally I usually play on normal and we just have fun. Others prefer to play permadeath and I'm sure there's plenty other play styles...trying to force your play style down the OP or anyone's throat is not cool.

I would recommend trying the S&B build more because its quite similar to my Wizard build so should function quite well especially with the extra mana if it still doesn't work for you I dunno maybe I rely more on skill than loot and the perfect build.

Regardless the OP never said anything about needing the build to work for EE and he and many other have asked you guys to settle down and if you have nothing constructive to say, please leave your not helping the OP your just derailing his thread and frankly every gish-like thread recently. Besides IW basically told you to shut-it so please do so.

That all said in its current state EK is useless imo. luckily gishes worked just fine w/o it before and still do now

AtomicMew
12-05-2013, 02:05 AM
To be fair the S&B Sorc build I haven't actually played I've played a Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2 Dwarf S&B build and a PDK Sorc18/Pally2 THF build and both worked just fine in EE solo, duo and full group and this was all before EK was released...I will continue to play odd builds because its fun and honestly I don build for EH or EE if it can handle it awesome. if not I don't worry about it.

Alot of people could care less if their build works in EE or not so don;t act like their wrong for doing that....its not the end all to be all...personally I usually play on normal and we just have fun. Others prefer to play permadeath and I'm sure there's plenty other play styles...trying to force your play style down the OP or anyone's throat is not cool.

I would recommend trying the S&B build more because its quite similar to my Wizard build so should function quite well especially with the extra mana if it still doesn't work for you I dunno maybe I rely more on skill than loot and the perfect build.

Regardless the OP never said anything about needing the build to work for EE and he and many other have asked you guys to settle down and if you have nothing constructive to say, please leave your not helping the OP your just derailing his thread and frankly every gish-like thread recently. Besides IW basically told you to shut-it so please do so.

That all said in its current state EK is useless imo. luckily gishes worked just fine w/o it before and still do now



You're forcing your opinion down everyone's throat by saying that everyone has to play your type of build, which won't be able to contribute meaningfully in end game EE content. Some people like to have stronger builds....

Telling someone that you think their build needs work and then listing useful advice IS constructive criticism. And IW said "you guys" which includes you....

Pala-forged
12-05-2013, 05:01 AM
Now I would go Cha/Con Based with a side of Dex...PA/C/GC/OC is nice but you really don't have the feat room for it.

Lawful-Good PDK Sorc18/Pally2 (EK/Earth Savant)

Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10 (+2 int tome for more points in balance)
Cha 18 (Lvl ups here)

34pt build:Int 12 36pt:Int 12/Dex14

Skills: UMD,Concen, Balance

Feats

PDK Shield Mastery
1 Maximize
2 Empower
3 IC:Slashing (or IC:Pierce if you prefer Shortswords)
4 ISM
5 ISB
6 Combat Expertise
7 SF: UMD (or PL:Wiz if avail)
ED Draconic Incarnation
21 Bulwark of Defense
24 Great Charisma
26 Epic Mage Armor or Guardian Angel
27 Epic Reflexes or Ruin
28 Hellball


- Quicken: It's nice to have but far less useful to a fleshy caster if you learn how to jump cast you'll rarely have issues with spellcasting midbattle.
Jumping helps.. but doesn't solve the issue in harder content. Again, if you're playing eNormal, carry on.
- THF Line+Bastard Sword: The DPS you get from this line is so miniscule I'd only take it if it was a single feat that scaled with character level let alone wasting a 4th feat of weapon prof being limited to bastard swords as your primary weapon would not be good either (although if your forced to go 17/2/1 you can use that fighter lvl to get B-Sword prof so you can use all 3 1-handed PDK weapons)
We agree! Although, I made an ek sorc w/ THF line using Cleaver with OC. THF actually helped that.
- PA/C/GC/OC is nice but you really don't have the feat room for it let alone it being a massive waste of build points
Sure you do!
- Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Whirlwind: Not enough feat space otherwise this would be awesome.
Have they fixed Whirlwind? Last I knew it still sucked for any non-monks.
Well. That's an interesting build, that's for sure.

Your melee will be terrible, your DC's will be average, your spells will be passable.. aside from spell pen/DC. If all you want to do is rp in eNormal, sure. Enjoy.

What I'd do:

Str based to start with.
Great Charisma? Take power attack instead. Come on, that's not hard.
Shield feats? Swap those for cleave/Gcleave. Increased dps just from that. (And use some form of THF, cleaver would be great.)
Combat expertise? Just.. no.
Get rid of Bulwark, grab overwhelming critical.
That would net you more melee dps, esp in dreadnought/fury. While hybrids would be fun in ddo, if they worked, they don't work. It sucks, I know.

Much as I love making "strange" builds, I try to force them to work for EE - that's half the fun.
Edit: You'd net more melee dps from this, while still keeping maximize/empower for things like ice ray, if you really want some form of useful casting.

And yes, that build you made could solo eHard, but that says more about eHard than it does about the build.

Failedlegend
12-05-2013, 08:49 AM
You're forcing your opinion down everyone's throat by saying that everyone has to play your type of build, which won't be able to contribute meaningfully in end game EE content. Some people like to have stronger builds....

Telling someone that you think their build needs work and then listing useful advice IS constructive criticism. And IW said "you guys" which includes you....

I never said building for EE is wrong what I said is people have alot of different playstyles such as Permadeath and in the OPs cause he could seem to care less about EE so what YOU prefer is irrelevant what the OP wants is what matters...personally I'd never make a S&B Sorc they just don't have the feat room for it but the OP wanted that so I was trying to help.

You keep telling people their wrong, I give suggestions...there's a difference. Now please go make your own EE EK thread and leave us alone.

HungarianRhapsody
12-05-2013, 12:48 PM
/subscribing to this thread to see the continued Snootch-esque build advice.

katz
12-05-2013, 01:13 PM
Ok we Mew we get it, YOU don't like this kind of build clearly the OP (and many others) do otherwise the devs never would have added EK so please stop posting unless you have anything helpful to say.

Anyways to the OP whilst I LOVE multi-classing (I'm serious even if a capstone or other lvl 20 ability is vastly superior I love making it into some abomination that doesn't quite reach the single class build but is close and more versatile) unfortunately we don't have alot of the feats from PnP that help this and unfortunately spellcasters are hit the hardest so I wouldn't drop more than a few levels for multi-classing...personally I'd go Sorc18/Paladin2 if your willing to spend $ on the LR+1 or if this is a TR build...otherwise Sorc17/PDK1/Pally2 is your best bet...with the shield deflection feat (from PDK) and your inevitably massive saves evasion is less important.

Now I would go Cha/Con Based with a side of Dex...PA/C/GC/OC is nice but you really don't have the feat room for it.

Here's what I'd go with

Lawful-Good PDK Sorc18/Pally2 (EK/Earth Savant)

Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10 (+2 int tome for more points in balance)
Cha 18 (Lvl ups here)

34pt build:Int 12 36pt:Int 12/Dex14

Skills: UMD,Concen, Balance

Feats

PDK Shield Mastery
1 Maximize
2 Empower
3 IC:Slashing (or IC:Pierce if you prefer Shortswords)
4 ISM
5 ISB
6 Combat Expertise
7 SF: UMD (or PL:Wiz if avail)
ED Draconic Incarnation
21 Bulwark of Defense
24 Great Charisma
26 Epic Mage Armor or Guardian Angel
27 Epic Reflexes or Ruin
28 Hellball


Couple points about feats I didn't add:

- Quicken: It's nice to have but far less useful to a fleshy caster if you learn how to jump cast you'll rarely have issues with spellcasting midbattle.

- THF Line+Bastard Sword: The DPS you get from this line is so miniscule I'd only take it if it was a single feat that scaled with character level let alone wasting a 4th feat of weapon prof being limited to bastard swords as your primary weapon would not be good either (although if your forced to go 17/2/1 you can use that fighter lvl to get B-Sword prof so you can use all 3 1-handed PDK weapons)

- PA/C/GC/OC is nice but you really don't have the feat room for it let alone it being a massive waste of build points

- Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Whirlwind: Not enough feat space otherwise this would be awesome.

erm. what exactly would be the purpose of this build... looks like you're trying to do 2-3 things at once, and doing a half-arsed job of all of them

Failedlegend
12-05-2013, 01:42 PM
erm. what exactly would be the purpose of this build... looks like you're trying to do 2-3 things at once, and doing a half-arsed job of all of them

Funny how the creator of Tukaw was worshipped for creating an off-the-wall but awesome build and even my Wakut got some decent praise but lately anything that doesn't conform to certain parameters must be ridiculed...and people wonder why no plays outside of static groups anymore.

HungarianRhapsody
12-05-2013, 01:47 PM
Funny how the creator of Tukaw was worshipped for creating an off-the-wall but awesome build and even my Wakut got some decent praise but lately anything that doesn't conform to certain parameters must be ridiculed...and people wonder why no plays outside of static groups anymore.

Off the wall builds that do well get praise. Anyone can create an off the wall build that is terrible.

LOOON375
12-05-2013, 02:00 PM
but lately anything that doesn't conform to certain parameters must be ridiculed... .Much longer than just "lately". It just seems to be more pronounced as of late.

Failedlegend
12-05-2013, 02:07 PM
Much longer than just "lately". It just seems to be more pronounced as of late.

Couldn't have said it better myself :D

AtomicMew
12-05-2013, 10:49 PM
I never said building for EE is wrong what I said is people have alot of different playstyles such as Permadeath and in the OPs cause he could seem to care less about EE so what YOU prefer is irrelevant what the OP wants is what matters...personally I'd never make a S&B Sorc they just don't have the feat room for it but the OP wanted that so I was trying to help.

You keep telling people their wrong, I give suggestions...there's a difference. Now please go make your own EE EK thread and leave us alone.

Do you honestly think that the OP is trying to make a mediocre build? (Who does that honestly...)? No, players in general try to build the best possible build within certain constraints. The build you posted was NOT good advice, even if you wanted to build under the original constraints of a casting/melee hybrid.

Also, I don't appreciate your tone, the mod said to agree to disagree. That doesn't include telling people to **** off like you just tried to do.

katz
12-06-2013, 08:03 AM
Funny how the creator of Tukaw was worshipped for creating an off-the-wall but awesome build and even my Wakut got some decent praise but lately anything that doesn't conform to certain parameters must be ridiculed...and people wonder why no plays outside of static groups anymore.


i wasn't mocking you... yet. i was honestly wondering what the purpose of the build is. i'm all for crazy off the wall ****. heck, i made a bard TANK (among other things)

Failedlegend
12-06-2013, 11:50 AM
i wasn't mocking you... yet. i was honestly wondering what the purpose of the build is. I'm all for crazy off the wall ****. heck, i made a bard TANK (among other things)

A lightly splashed full spellcaster (hence PDK) with melee capability and wicked survivability.

Personally I'm thinking on either an Elven Wiz12/Ranger6/Rogue2 Dex/Int TWF build or a PDK Sorc18/Pally2 Cha/Con THF build neither which I plan to use EK much if at all, it really is atrocious

Pala-forged
12-06-2013, 06:50 PM
A lightly splashed full spellcaster (hence PDK) with melee capability and wicked survivability.

Personally I'm thinking on either an Elven Wiz12/Ranger6/Rogue2 Dex/Int TWF build or a PDK Sorc18/Pally2 Cha/Con THF build neither which I plan to use EK much if at all, it really is atrocious

Hardly.. 8 ap for 4% doublestrike isn't terrible. 11 ap for 4% doublestrike and 75% wand/scroll power. 1 ap for 1% doublestrike is an option. It has uses... just not enough.

katz
12-06-2013, 07:31 PM
A lightly splashed full spellcaster (hence PDK) with melee capability and wicked survivability

questions:

i get part of the survivability thing... great saves from the charisma and the paladin splash... but you have 2 feats that, when i look at them, they don't really make sense. CE and bulwark. even stacking all those things together, you'd get negligible benefit from the AC it would give you... you get more benefit from displacement/ghostly/dodge/concealment... and you'd take a penalty to your spellcasting to boot. seems to me more like it's biting you in the arse than giving you a benefit. great charisma is kinda meh too. a whole feat for 1 stat point? really? personally, i wouldn't do that on a feat starved class.

personally... i'd probably keep it almost the same, but swap out CE, bulwark, and great charisma, swap in PA/cleave/great cleave, and go to town with a greatsword. great melee damage. great spell damage. great survivability... very little sacrifice to get any of it.

but that's just me.

Failedlegend
12-19-2013, 05:23 PM
questions:

i get part of the survivability thing... great saves from the charisma and the paladin splash... but you have 2 feats that, when i look at them, they don't really make sense. CE and bulwark. even stacking all those things together, you'd get negligible benefit from the AC it would give you... you get more benefit from displacement/ghostly/dodge/concealment... and you'd take a penalty to your spellcasting to boot. seems to me more like it's biting you in the arse than giving you a benefit. great charisma is kinda meh too. a whole feat for 1 stat point? really? personally, i wouldn't do that on a feat starved class.

personally... i'd probably keep it almost the same, but swap out CE, bulwark, and great charisma, swap in PA/cleave/great cleave, and go to town with a greatsword. great melee damage. great spell damage. great survivability... very little sacrifice to get any of it.

but that's just me.

Honestly I suck at choosing Epic feats their just wait to limited in my opinion...rogues, monks, archers, bards all have great option but unless you have MT+IMT or SF+GSF there's not really anything there for casters...speaking of which has anyone checked to see if Epic Mage Armor procs the improved mage armor ability.

As for CE+Bulwark though I admittedly wouldn't normally take it on a Sorc (as I said their far too feat starved for S&B) but the OP wanted to see both a S&B and a THF build and I finished the S&B first which if your going S&B you may as well try to be as survivable as possible otherwise S&B is kind of pointless and after that I never got around to finishing the THF one (although i am working on it now that my wiz is going to be TRing soon)

As for adding in PA/C/GC I do plan to do that on my THF PDK Sorc since i can easily pick it up with 10 str+3 tome (already on my character) as he has 2 build points left after maxing Cha/Con at 18 so its not so bad it (a first lifer would be 11 Str, Con17/Cha18) its just S&B is too spread out ...the alternatives are either a TWF Elven or ML Wizard (Dex to damage+Finesse) or some weird Fire/Force Sorc/Monk build but those are still in planning so may not work at all.

So what I'm saying is that I mostly agree with you its Atomic Mew's insistent that hybrids are not possible and that Str is the only way and that I'm right and everyone else is wrong...your fine :D


Hardly.. 8 ap for 4% doublestrike isn't terrible. 11 ap for 4% doublestrike and 75% wand/scroll power. 1 ap for 1% doublestrike is an option. It has uses... just not enough.

Oh that I agree with it has plenty of cherry pickable things but the tree itself is useless especially since its impossible for a single-class Sorc or Wiz to get GTWF or GTHF. Even if EK wasn't a waste of AP that would be a HUGE deterrent...it would require the first two feats of the line of course.

Here's hoping their still planning on adding Wild Mage....maybe they'll add some stuff from Rage mage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031116a&page=7) to it :) that would give them a 2nd chance to not screw it up because their "response" to feedback for EK was extremely underwhelming.

Thats not just a random cramming together though...imo those two prestiges fit together perfectly as far as theme goes...Wild Mages "chaotic outcomes" just fits in my opinion...sure you can cast whilst raging you face off but occasionally you could either overdo it and make your little fireball do a bigger boom (good outcome) or mess up your spell and turn yourself into a barrel for 30 seconds (bad outcome...bad outcomes should only effect yourself not party members because hurting allies means no one wants to play with you)

Alternatively if the devs are against that I'd like to see it have its own custom "combat line"...something like Eldritch Combatant, IEC and GEC or w/e...again merge the spellsword core and add those 3 into core 6,12 and 18 or make the "Battlemage" enhancement in the tree into a line if they'd prefer to use the core for something like the light6 -> medium12 -> heavy armor18 (it doesnt suit the lore of EK nor Spellsword but removing this abilty would probably cause forum rage :P)

The EK line would be a multi-selector that could be taken instead of Shield Prof/Shield Striking/Elemental Resistance (those all require a shield to function) or replacing the 6,12 and 18 cores with Heavy armor is core 18 or 20 as well. This would require an orb in the off-hand to function (limiting it to 1-handed weapons)

Something like this

EC: When fighting with an orb in your off-hand, you gain 1 temporary spell point and +1 universal spellpower on-hit, 3 temporary SP and USP on crit, and 5 temporary SP and USP on vorpal for X seconds <insert standard language for disappearing stacks here>.
IEC: Any 1-handed weapon gains +1 to Crit range and your touch/ranged touch spells no longer have a level cap.
GEC: Orbs Boni to Saves and Energy Resist no longer requires you to be actively blocking (blocking doubles the effect instead)

My other complaints and a full write-up of what I think would be a much better (suggestions welcome) EK tree can be found here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427766-The-Official-Eldritch-Knight-Enhancement-Tree-Discussion-Thread!?p=5141521&viewfull=1#post5141521) (big post...don't want to derail the OP build thread)

Anyways once I finish the THF Sorc I'll post it here if the OP still wishes.