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Viren1
11-08-2013, 07:54 AM
So I was tossing some ideas around after hearing about how great cocoon is for healing (Never really ran much in primal so haven't had a great deal to do with it) but decided to throw a theory build together incorporating that, divine might and excellent saves with all the goodness that is monk.

So,

Human 8 Feats + Monk 3 feats + 3 Epic = 14 Feats
Add 2 Destiny feats + Paladin Deity + Monk light/dark path = 18 Choices

Feats:(In no particular order)
1.Bow Strength
2.Stunning Fist
3.Point Blank Shot
4.Weapon Focus Ranged
5.Monk PL
6.Two weapon fighting
7.Improved two weapon
8.Greater two weapon
9.10k Stars
10.Zen archery
11.Improved Critical Bludgeon
12.Grand Master of Forms
13.Vorpal Strikes
14.Improved martial Arts

Destiny:
1.Perfect two weapon fighting
2.Tactician

Deity: Silver Flame
Monk:Light Path

Skills: Max UMD, Concentration, Balance, Heal

Starting Stats:

Strength 16 +5 Tome
Dexterity 14 +3 Tome
Constitution 14 +3 Tome
Intelligence 8 +3 Tome
Wisdom 16 +5 Tome
Charisma 12 +3 Tome

(I am clearly not a power gamer with +5's everywhere)

Level ups: 5 Wisdom, 2 Strength


Enhancements:

Human: 17 AP
Core Damage Boost
Core Wisdom
Action Surge: Strength +3
Action Surge: Charisma +3
Action Surge: Wisdom +2
Improved Recovery Tier 1,3,4



Shintao: 37 AP
Cores to Argent Fist (4th core)
Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
Smite Tainted Creature (Rank 1)
Iron Skin (Rank 3)
Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Conditioning (Rank 3)
Jade Strike (Rank 1)
Wisdom (Rank 1)
Instinctive Defense (Rank 1)
Wisdom (Rank 1)
Violence Begets Violence (Rank 1)
Meditation of War (Rank 1)
Empty Hand Mastery (Rank 1)

Ninja Spy: 15 AP
Cores to Shadow Veil (3rd Core)
Sneak Attack Training Tier 1,2,3
Acrobatic (Rank 3)
Unbalancing Strike (Rank 1)
Agility (Rank 2)

Warpriest: 7 AP
Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Divine Might (Rank 3)
Toughness (Rank 3)

Divine Disciple: 4 AP
Core 1
Spell Points +3

Destiny: Grandmaster of Flowers

Twists:
Sense Weakness
+6 LD Combat DC's
Rejuvenation Cocoon

The 2 level ups in strength were to qualify for overwhelming critical should I feel that is more valuable than either the vorpal fists or improved martial arts, 2 Paladin levels are pretty much exclusively for Cha to saves, 1 Cleric for Wis based blue bar and Divine might.


Now explain to me all the reasons this will not work :)

whomhead
11-08-2013, 10:54 AM
Now explain to me all the reasons this will not work :)

In short, yes it could be viable in EE with the right gear. But the build itself could also be a lot better.

You've got a good amount of survivability here, but you will find the damage lacking for EE. Most notably, you take five (5!) feats for ranged combat, but no Manyshot. You're leaving a massive amount of burst DPS on the table there.

It is tough to fit in manyshot without some levels of ranger, so the first thing to consider would be swapping the paladin levels for ranger. That gives you a massive amount of extra leeway in the build due to the free feats (TWF, bow strength, rapid shot), which would free up feats for at least IC:ranged and manyshot. It also should make it possible to fit in Empower Healing, which is a very nice boost to your cocoon. That is all at the cost of just the charisma mod to saves bonus from paladin.

If you go with the original class choice, then I'd drop all the ranged feats, pick up overwhelming critical and empower healing and not try to bite off more than you can chew feat-wise.

The last question I have is what you're getting out of those last two monk levels? 15 monk for QP is solid, but what does 17 get you, really? I'd be inclined to go 15 monk, 4 ranger, 1 cleric on an EE-focused monkcher. Alternatively, 15 monk, 3 cleric, 2 paladin would be good for a non-ranged character that uses smite foe + smite weakness. Stacking vulnerable on a boss is a great way to boost the group's DPS, and will go a long way towards increasing the viability of your character in EE.

Viren1
11-08-2013, 03:02 PM
You've got a good amount of survivability here, but you will find the damage lacking for EE. Most notably, you take five (5!) feats for ranged combat, but no Manyshot. You're leaving a massive amount of burst DPS on the table there.

It is tough to fit in manyshot without some levels of ranger, so the first thing to consider would be swapping the paladin levels for ranger. That gives you a massive amount of extra leeway in the build due to the free feats (TWF, bow strength, rapid shot), which would free up feats for at least IC:ranged and manyshot. It also should make it possible to fit in Empower Healing, which is a very nice boost to your cocoon. That is all at the cost of just the charisma mod to saves bonus from paladin.

I had feared that the damage was going to end up lacking. I kind of put 10 thousand stars in in lieu of manyshot, but I haven't played a monkcher yet so not sure how comparable it is. If ranged was cut entirely from the build, then that would free up those 5 feats for, Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical, Empower Heal?



The last question I have is what you're getting out of those last two monk levels? 15 monk for QP is solid, but what does 17 get you, really? I'd be inclined to go 15 monk, 4 ranger, 1 cleric on an EE-focused monkcher. Alternatively, 15 monk, 3 cleric, 2 paladin would be good for a non-ranged character that uses smite foe + smite weakness. Stacking vulnerable on a boss is a great way to boost the group's DPS, and will go a long way towards increasing the viability of your character in EE.

The main reason for the extra monk levels is to minimise the cost on unarmed strike, although that only really requires 16 monk to get to 3[d8] (loss of.5 over pure monk) and the adamantine ki strike (one less dr thing I need to swap wraps for). The second monk level only gets timeless body which is nothing; so that could either become 2 Cleric for a small boost to Spell points, or 3 Paladin for fear and disease immunity and aura of courage. In that case I would probably lean more towards the extra Paladin level.

whomhead
11-08-2013, 04:37 PM
I had feared that the damage was going to end up lacking. I kind of put 10 thousand stars in in lieu of manyshot, but I haven't played a monkcher yet so not sure how comparable it is. If ranged was cut entirely from the build, then that would free up those 5 feats for, Power attack, Improved Sunder, Overwhelming Critical, Empower Heal and Dodge?

10k Stars is a great way to keep your ranged damage up when manyshot is off timer. But in my experience it is like the icing on manyshot's cake (or perhaps more accurately the little decorative bits of icing that spell out "happy birthday" on top of the icing and cake that is manyshot).

Don't forget that Overwhelming critical requires cleave and great cleave, which you can get instead of improved sunder and dodge. You're going human, so make sure to create a male character. Great cleave unarmed with male humans is very nice as it procs off-hand and double strikes.


The main reason for the extra monk levels is to minimise the cost on unarmed strike, although that only really requires 16 monk to get to 3[d8] (loss of.5 over pure monk) and the adamantine ki strike (one less dr thing I need to swap wraps for). The second monk level only gets timeless body which is nothing; so that could either become 2 Cleric for a small boost to Spell points, or 3 Paladin for fear and disease immunity and aura of courage. In that case I would probably lean more towards the extra Paladin level.

I like the 16 monk idea. I'd definitely go 2/2 paladin and cleric on a pure melee build. Smite foe, the tier 1 core ability in the warpriest tree, is a nice attack unarmed. 2nd level cleric lets you take smite weakness, which is a great way to quickly tack on up to 20% extra damage for your whole party on boss mobs, and is still a solid DPS boost for yourself on trash mobs. It procs off of each off-hand and doublestrike attack, so one click of smite can in theory increase damage by 12%. That's much better than the aura in my opinion.

Viren1
11-09-2013, 02:38 AM
I will keep that in mind, my only concern with the smites and smite weakness is how quickly the stacks disappear, with the 15s cooldown on smite and stacks disappearing every 3s, it wouldn't take much for the whole stack to go. Especially if spamming fists of light/earth strikes. Attack cycle would go something along the lines of Stunning fist, Quivering Palm, FoL, Iron fist, Earth 2, Earth 3, Earth finisher then smite. Which is still skipping the AoE cleaves (which had 2 feats spent on them) and all the GMoF abilites....

I suppose with the Charisma to saves, the only problem with fear is the roll of a 1... so that would negate one benefit of the extra pally level. To get smite weakness I suppose pulling 2 ranks of toughness from warpriest tree to get it wouldn't hurt that much. Immunity to disease is negated by remove disease pots. At which point it basically comes down to will smite fit in nicely to the attack progression without someone else also using it, base saves, 30 sp and BAB...

Cleric wins out on the SP and Smite, assuming it can comfortably fit into the progression, if it doesn't then cleric starts to lose out. Paladin bonus feats aren't spectacular, but does offer +1 reflex over Clr and +1 to hit. Given the 30SP is nothing with the availability of mnemonic pots it seems to me that the Paladin is probably still the better choice?

Fafnir
11-09-2013, 03:40 AM
Paladin is a good choice in that the bonus to saves from aura grow as the game inflates. With +11/3/1 item bonuses and +5 from tomes, you're on the way to have impressive stats to lift the saves. There is a build floating around for a paladin monkcher that does great soloing EE.

Evens are better for monk levels as QP/SF are based on ML/2. If you drop a lot of monk levels, you can disregard it a little.

The benefit of a casting class is that you get Magical Training. That means you can keep rolling out Cocoons even if you'd otherwise be OOM as you regenerate mana.

16 monk / 2 fighter / 2 paladin would be an interesting melee option, with the fighter levels allowing you to recover 3 DC to QP/SF. Any melee in EE can be touch and go. Otherwise go 12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 paladin for ranged option.

By the way, the 16/2/2 is a build I will run after doing my Iconic TR cycles. Notwithstanding what I just said, I am also considering 15/3/2 with 3 fighter levels allowing improved mobility for 3% bonus to dodge cap.

This guy has an interesting 16 monk / 2 cleric / 2 fighter build. You can vary it for a paladin, losing some feats and different APs. Link here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427259-Planning-for-the-ultimate-survivalist-monk-for-EE

Viren1
11-09-2013, 03:33 PM
The benefit of a casting class is that you get Magical Training. That means you can keep rolling out Cocoons even if you'd otherwise be OOM as you regenerate mana.
This is essentially why the cleric level is there. Main reason for taking it is to have the blue bar to power Cocoon, Divine might is just a small bonus from attaining a moderate Cha which UMD will benefit from anyway.



16 monk / 2 fighter / 2 paladin would be an interesting melee option, with the fighter levels allowing you to recover 3 DC to QP/SF. Any melee in EE can be touch and go. Otherwise go 12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 paladin for ranged option.
This version however will be missing the blue bar. Paladins can't cast spells untill 4th level, and even then it is a small sp pool, Meaning you would need to rely on an alternate form of healing. Although the extra DC from the fighter levels would be nice, I can't see a way of fitting it without either losing too many monk levels or losing cocoon as self healing.



This guy has an interesting 16 monk / 2 cleric / 2 fighter build. You can vary it for a paladin, losing some feats and different APs. Link here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427259-Planning-for-the-ultimate-survivalist-monk-for-EE
That is in interesting build, looks focussed primarily stun damage from what I could see there. However as it stands right now the Dark monk abilites seem a bit lackluster in comparison to Shintao. Touch of death proccing multiple times each strike and shadow fade were the two main reasons to go dark, but ToD got clubbed by the nerfbat and now shintao monks can pick up the sneak damage spending the points to get shadow fade and not really lose out.

scottmike0
11-10-2013, 05:54 PM
*snip*

Try
4 fighter 12 monk 4 ranger elf

Pro's
still keeps incorporeal
spec for arcane archer
always able to change stances when going to an enhancement person-
so you could be full damage with wraps and still be able to use your bow

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 Lawful Good Elf Male
(4 Fighter \ 12 Monk \ 4 Ranger \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 397
Spell Points: 123
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 17
Will: 17

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 14 17
Dexterity 17 19
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 9 11
Wisdom 16 25
Charisma 9 11

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 3 12
Bluff -1 8
Concentration 2 11
Diplomacy -1 8
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -1 8
Heal 3 15
Hide 3 12
Intimidate -1 8
Jump 2 11
Listen 3 17
Move Silently 3 12
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 8
Search -1 10
Spellcraft -1 8
Spot 3 17
Swim 2 11
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 1 10

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Zen Archery


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Manyshot


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Ten Thousand Stars


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Enhancement: Elf - Elven Accuracy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Elf - Child of Nature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Elf - Aerenal Weapon Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Elf - Arcane Fluidity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Elf - Arcane Fluidity (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Elf - Enchantment Lore (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Elf - Arcanum (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Elf - Arcane Archer (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Arcane Archer (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Morphic Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Metalline Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Aligned Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Conjure Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Corrosive Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Dispelling Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Dispelling Shot (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Dispelling Shot (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Shattermantle Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Shattermantle Shot (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Terror Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Terror Arrows (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Terror Arrows (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Banishing Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Smiting Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Hand (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Restoring the Balance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - The Receptive Earth (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Smite Tainted Creature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Lifting the Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Jade Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Dismissing Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Difficulty at the Beginning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Empty Hand Mastery (Rank 1)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Improved Martial Arts


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Vorpal Strikes


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Tactician


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Elusive Target
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Paralyzing Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Paralyzing Arrows (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Paralyzing Arrows (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Argent Fist (Rank 1)




just ignore enhancements- i just put random ones

criticisms ready

gnarledmaw
11-10-2013, 10:51 PM
So I was tossing some ideas around ...

FWIW, I began playing a toon about a year ago that became a 6 Radiant Servant/6 Knight/8 Shintao. What my original intent was I suppose is now irrelevant as that was before the enhancements pass.

I enjoyed playing it a great deal. The way I built it, it worked something like a Holy Tempest with some great UMD thrown in. Feat starved for what I had hoped to build and without the best gear, the DPS was acceptable but not the best. The resilience he had due to saves and UMD often made him the last one standing to pick up the party when a wipe was imminent and his RS abilities enabling him to work as an extra rest shrine were certainly appreciated.

I had been considering TRing him, then I heard about the new pending expansion being primarily undead at the new endgame. I got to thinking about the Energy Bursts, Divine Might empowered Divine Sacrifices and Exalted Smites, the paladins Divine Light, and of course the Shintaos Fists of Light, and have decided to push forward to see what he can do.

I supect that all of that positive/light slinging around in a room full of undead has to be worth something. I suspect that I will be pleasantly surprised....

Kerthyn
11-10-2013, 11:19 PM
This is essentially why the cleric level is there. Main reason for taking it is to have the blue bar to power Cocoon, Divine might is just a small bonus from attaining a moderate Cha which UMD will benefit from anyway.



You could just get a wizardry, power, or archmagi item to power cocoon. I use that on my pure monk.

Culver.Civello
11-18-2013, 05:21 PM
You're going human, so make sure to create a male character. Great cleave unarmed with male humans is very nice as it procs off-hand and double strikes.

Where in the world did you get this from? XD

whomhead
11-19-2013, 05:40 AM
Where in the world did you get this from? XD

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/404021-PSA-Great-Cleave-does-give-off-hand-attacks-unarmed

Basically, I noticed that great cleave was actually living up to its illustrious title (great) on my monk. I posted as much here, and then others chimed in saying how bad it was on their characters. A bit of digging led to... well, you can read all about it in that post.

Culver.Civello
11-19-2013, 01:12 PM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/404021-PSA-Great-Cleave-does-give-off-hand-attacks-unarmed

Basically, I noticed that great cleave was actually living up to its illustrious title (great) on my monk. I posted as much here, and then others chimed in saying how bad it was on their characters. A bit of digging led to... well, you can read all about it in that post.

That is interesting. O.o I have a human male monk with GC, but never really cared to pay attention. XD I'll have to see for myself the next time I log in.