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Ryan220
11-05-2013, 09:22 AM
Just a quick question.

If I were to switch my L28 WF AM to a WF PM what increase in Int/ DCs are possible?

Many thanks

Lanhelin
11-05-2013, 10:11 AM
You'll get +1 DC if you take spell focus, greater sf and epic sf Necromancy feats, otherwise the boni are the same. +2 Int = +1 DC.

AM: +2 Int Capstone, +2 Int tree, +2 DC primary spellschool = +4 DC

PM: +2 Int Capstone, +2 Int tree, +2 Int Improved Shrouding, +2 Int Lich = +4 DC and +1 DC Necromancy (Lich)

SirValentine
11-06-2013, 03:54 AM
What do you mean, switch? Aren't you already BOTH?

Assume you have the +1 school boost to your favored school from Tier 4 AM, and you have Lich form from PM. Both capstones give the same +2 Int bonus. So the choice is which Tier 5.

- +2 Int and +1 Necro from Tier 5 PM, or
- +1 to school of choice and a 2nd school from Tier 5 AM.

So it's a wash for your school of choice and for a 2nd school, assuming they are not Necromancy. Necromancy and the rest of your schools would be 1 DC ahead with the PM Tier 5.

(Note for Enchantment, strictly for DCs, you'd be ahead by taking the Tier 5 from AM and using Vampire form instead of Lich.)

Ryan220
11-06-2013, 05:25 AM
Hello. Im the OP

All I have from the PM tree is the two +1 Int enhancements. I didnt bother with the PM forms asbeing in form to get the bonus prevents me from Reconstructing. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post a bit?

SirValentine
11-06-2013, 07:08 AM
All I have from the PM tree is the two +1 Int enhancements.


OK...then you can get +2 Int more by picking up Lich form.



I didnt bother with the PM forms asbeing in form to get the bonus prevents me from Reconstructing.


Which is why you slot in Negative Energy Burst and one of the Death Aura spells.

But if you're not in form there is no Int/DC reason to put anything else into Pale Master.

Raoull
11-06-2013, 11:26 AM
If you're a DC caster, you'll just need to get used to the fact that you need to be Undead for peak performance.

It used to be relatively comparable, where an Archmage could have a DC in 1 school that matched a Lich's Necro, and a DC in a second school that matched everything else for a Lich. (The lich would still win for all other schools.)

Now, if you are unwilling to go into Undead form, you're all around lower. If we look at:


AM: +2 Int Capstone, +2 Int tree, +2 DC primary spellschool = +4 DC
PM: +2 Int Capstone, +2 Int tree, +2 Int Improved Shrouding, +2 Int Lich = +4 DC and +1 DC Necromancy (Lich)

We'll ignore the capstones, because the line up. We'll ignore the Int tree, because you can get all of those regardless. Then we're left with:
AM: +2 DC primary, +1 DC secondary
PM: +2 DC on all due to Lich Int bonus, +1 Necro

Except, it is actually worse than that, becasue the Lich can still get +1 DC Primary from the AM tree. So it is really:
AM: +2DC in school of Choice, +1 DC in a second school of choice
PM: +2 DCs to all schools, +1 DC Necro, +1 DC school of choice (which can be Necro)

On top of that, a Lich can still get all of the same fancy AM SLAs that an AM capstone wizard would get.

And to make matters worse.... Drow went from being +1 DC higher than a WF innately to +2 DCs higher... So a Drow Lich can reach 4 DCs higher in Necro than any WF who can still cast reconstruct can get.


Even if you are a WF... if you want to be a top Enchantment (or any other school) caster? Be a Lich, with the enchant goodies from the AM tree. A WF now has as much synergy with being a DC caster as a dwarf....

Lonnbeimnech
11-06-2013, 11:37 AM
+2 int from lich, +2 int from capstone but also


Improved Shrouding: Your Undead Shrouds gain the following additional benefits:

While in Shroud of the Juju Zombie, you gain +2 Constitution, 15 Physical Resistance Rating, and your Damage Reduction increases to 10/Slashing.
While in Shroud of the Master Vampire, you gain +2 Dexterity, your vulnerability to Light damage is reduced to 200% (from 300%), and your melee and unarmed attacks heal you for 1 point of Negative Energy damage.
While in Shroud of the Dread Wraith, you gain +2 Dexterity and your Incorporeal Miss Chance increases from 25% to 35%.
While in Shroud of the Archlich, you gain an additional +2 Intelligence and +10 to Negative Energy Spellpower.

SirValentine
11-06-2013, 01:06 PM
if you want to be a top Enchantment (or any other school) caster? Be a Lich, with the enchant goodies from the AM tree.


"any other school", yes. Not Enchantment.

Top enchantment is Vampire form, not Lich, with Tier 5 from AM, for +1 Enchantment DC ahead. The +2 Enchantment DC on Vampire is what makes Enchantment the ONLY school where you actually do get better DCs by taking Tier 5 from AM over taking Improved Shrouding.

Ryan220
11-06-2013, 02:54 PM
Thank you all.

Plenty for me to think about

Perhaps its time I give being a WF PM a try then