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Stormbriger
11-02-2013, 01:21 PM
My rogue has earned the maximum XP on her Shadowdancer epic destiny. I have Shrouding Stike (Rank 1), Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Manipulation, Consume, and Shadow Form. According to the text on the ED's I should be able to retain up to 6 shadow charges, but I cannot accumulate more than 3 at any given time while other rogues in the guild have as many as 7. Is this a bug or do I have something set wrong? I do not use the Shrouding Strike ability, only assassinate. Thanks.

Phaeton_Seraph
11-03-2013, 01:29 AM
I don't recall ever having more than 5.

OTOH, other than Shadow Form, I'm not certain how they're used.

ReaperAlexEU
11-04-2013, 05:36 AM
i make it 5 max from your choices not 6.

i recently upgraded my shrouding strike from 1 to 2 and didn't get the extra 2 charges on the first quest (messed about in the vale to try shadow manipulation). however when i jumped into a proper quest i did manage to rack up to my new max. so if this is really fresh maybe just a relog will fix it?

as for shrouding strike, it works just fine for me with assassinate only (didn;t even slot shrouding strike). i do know shrouding shot is bugged and doesn;t work with assassinate, but strike is fine.

it really sounds like things are a little bugged if you're still capped at 3. if it's been like that for a while i'm not sure what to suggest. i guess you could try resetting your destiny and buy it all back in one go, that might give it a kick in the rump it needs

Silken-Akira
11-04-2013, 11:02 AM
I have shrouding strike for a while now and it didn't work or show me that I charges anywhere yet.
However I just brought it up to rank 2 so hoping it got the kick it needed next time I play.

ReaperAlexEU
11-04-2013, 11:05 AM
I have shrouding strike for a while now and it didn't work or show me that I charges anywhere yet.
However I just brought it up to rank 2 so hoping it got the kick it needed next time I play.

shrouding strike/shot have no interface telling you how many charges you have. the only way to tell is if you get an ability that uses a charge such as cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume or shadow form.

bit of a pain if you only want the charges for any of the passive abilities (like the dodge one)

Silken-Akira
11-04-2013, 11:50 AM
tnx that indeed explains a lot

thomhas_of_mabar
11-04-2013, 07:21 PM
My rogue has earned the maximum XP on her Shadowdancer epic destiny. I have Shrouding Stike (Rank 1), Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Manipulation, Consume, and Shadow Form. According to the text on the ED's I should be able to retain up to 6 shadow charges, but I cannot accumulate more than 3 at any given time while other rogues in the guild have as many as 7. Is this a bug or do I have something set wrong? I do not use the Shrouding Strike ability, only assassinate. Thanks.

Only Shrouding strike adds to your max charge total. Shrouding strike, taken 3 times, will allow you to get 7 charges.
All the other abilities don't increase max charge value.

ReaperAlexEU
11-04-2013, 09:31 PM
Only Shrouding strike adds to your max charge total. Shrouding strike, taken 3 times, will allow you to get 7 charges.
All the other abilities don't increase max charge value.

hmm, that doesn't add up, with 2 in shrouding strike and 1 in cloak of shadows i cap at 5 charged.

are you trying to say the other ones are bugged? because i'm clearly getting 1 more max charge than shrouding strike can offer, as is the OP by virtue of being on an odd number

digital_terror1
11-04-2013, 11:50 PM
Only Shrouding strike adds to your max charge total. Shrouding strike, taken 3 times, will allow you to get 7 charges.
All the other abilities don't increase max charge value.

Not true. Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Manipulation, and Consume all give +1 max charge. Shrouding Strike rank 3 will only give you 4 charges max.

ReaperAlexEU
11-05-2013, 06:33 AM
Not true. Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Manipulation, and Consume all give +1 max charge. Shrouding Strike rank 3 will only give you 4 charges max.

would you lot stop confusing me! :p

you mean 6 max charges, right? 2/4/6 for tier 1/2/3

digital_terror1
11-05-2013, 05:25 PM
would you lot stop confusing me! :p

you mean 6 max charges, right? 2/4/6 for tier 1/2/3

No, I mean just what I said. 4 charges max from Shrouding Strike. 2 charges for the first rank of Strike, then only +1 charge for ranks 2 and 3 of it, so you get 2/3/4 for ranks 1/2/3.
You can then get an additional +1 charge each from Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Manipulation, and Consume for a total of 7 charges max.

thomhas_of_mabar
11-05-2013, 07:25 PM
This is my current Shadowdancer tree setup which gives me 7 charges:

INT x 2
Stealthy Rank 3
Lithe Rank 2
Shrouding Strike Rank 3
Meld into Darkness Rank 3
Grim Precision Rank 3
Improved Invisibility Rank 1
Sealed Soul
Untouchable
Shadow Form

ReaperAlexEU
11-06-2013, 11:57 AM
No, I mean just what I said. 4 charges max from Shrouding Strike. 2 charges for the first rank of Strike, then only +1 charge for ranks 2 and 3 of it, so you get 2/3/4 for ranks 1/2/3.
You can then get an additional +1 charge each from Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Manipulation, and Consume for a total of 7 charges max.


This is my current Shadowdancer tree setup which gives me 7 charges:

INT x 2
Stealthy Rank 3
Lithe Rank 2
Shrouding Strike Rank 3
Meld into Darkness Rank 3
Grim Precision Rank 3
Improved Invisibility Rank 1
Sealed Soul
Untouchable
Shadow Form

ok, something screwy is going on. i took another look last night and it does appear i'm only getting 3 from shadow strike II. yet thomas seems to be getting 6 from shadow strike III.

digital_terror1
11-08-2013, 06:48 PM
ok, something screwy is going on. i took another look last night and it does appear i'm only getting 3 from shadow strike II. yet thomas seems to be getting 6 from shadow strike III.

Yes, so he CLAIMS with no proof to back those claims up, despite in-game evidence to the contrary that you have witnessed for yourself.

CThruTheEgo
11-09-2013, 03:36 PM
I did some testing on this to find out exactly which abilities were offering how many shadow charges. I started by figuring out how many shadow charges you should be able to get based on the in-game descriptions. You should be able to get a maximum of 10 shadow charges from the following enhancements, per the in-game descriptions:

shrouding strike rank 1 - 2 charges
shrouding strike rank 2 - 2 charges
shrouding strike rank 3 - 2 charges
shadow form - 1 charge
cloak of shadows - 1 charge
shadow manipulation - 1 charge
consume - 1 charge

THE TESTS: I reset my enhancements and spent just enough to get shrouding strike rank 1 and untouchable. Untouchable applies your shadow charges to your dodge percentage so I could assassinate something and then check my dodge to see how much was added until I was no longer receiving any dodge bonus for assassinating something. This would tell me the max shadow charges I could obtain from shrouding strike rank 1.

I then went into the Vale and killed the few critters closest to Meridia checking my dodge bonus after each kill. I both assassinated and manually marked the targets to see if there was any difference. I started with a base dodge of 14% (6% improved uncanny dodge + 8% adamantine cloak of the wolf) and was only able to get up to a 15% after making sure that it was not the dodge bonus received from the nimbleness assassin enhancement (I just let those wear off and then rechecked). This means that shrouding strike rank 1 was only giving me 1 max charge.

After finding this number I then went back to the epic trainer, reset my enhancements again, and got cloak of shadows. This ability actually shows the number of shadow charges so I didn't have to keep checking my dodge bonus. I realized Searing Heights was a lot closer than Meridia, so I went there and tested again to see the number of shadow charges that shrouding strike rank 1 and cloak of shadows would give me. I continued this process of purchasing only a single enhancement that affects the maximum number of shadow charges and then testing it against the in-game description. Here are the results of these tests:

shrouding strike rank 1 - 1 charge (1 less than in-game description)
shrouding strike rank 1 and cloak of shadows - 3 charges (as expected per in-game description)
shrouding strike rank 2 and cloak of shadows - 5 charges (as expected per in-game description)
shrouding strike rank 3 and cloak of shadows - 7 charges (as expected per in-game description)
shrouding strike rank 3, cloak of shadows, and shadow manipulation - 7 charges (1 less than in-game description)
shrouding strike rank 3, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 7 charges (2 less than in-game description)
shrouding strike rank 3, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, and shadow form - 7 charges (3 less than in-game description)

CONCLUSIONS AND COMMENTS: It appears that the maximum number of shadow charges caps out at 7. However, I did take untouchable at the same time I took shadow manipulation. Untouchable allows a maximum of 7 shadow charges to apply to your dodge bonus, so it might be the case that it is also capping the maximum number of shadow charges you can get.

I also noticed after the first test where I was checking my dodge bonus that assassinate almost never gave me a shadow charge. This could have been because I was assassinating enemies who were much lower level than me because I know for a fact from previous experience that I get shadow charges from assassinating appropriate level enemies. I did notice, however, that marking the target always gave me a shadow charge when it was killed within the time limit. This could explain why I was only able to get 1 shadow charge in the first test. Although I both assassinated and marked targets in the first test, I am not sure how many times I tried marking. I will redo the first test and only mark the target. I might be able to get more than 1 shadow charge applied to my dodge bonus this way.

I don't feel like spending a stupid amount of plat to test something that the playerbase should not have to test, so I am going to let my ED reset penalty wear off and will do some more tests in a few days. I will redo the first test and only mark the target to see if I can get more than 1 charge applied to my dodge. I will redo the second test and not take untouchable at the same time I take shadow manipulation to see if I can get more than 7 shadow charges.

ReaperAlexEU
11-12-2013, 07:54 AM
thanks for the first class testing, looking forward to the results of round two!

for my own rogue, i picked up shadow form last night and my max charges didn't go up to 6, i'll check again tonight to see if it is one of those messed up session bugs that resolve on a fresh gaming session.

CThruTheEgo
01-10-2014, 11:26 PM
CONCLUSIONS: Shadow charges are totally borked. Here is the tl;dr version, details can be found below. If you only have shrouding strike (no matter how many ranks) and untouchable without any abilities that use shadow charges, then you can only get a maximum of +1 dodge. Shrouding strike coupled with an ability that uses shadow charges (i.e. cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, or shadow form) will give you 2 charges per rank. Cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, and shadow form seem to be mutually exclusive with each other, meaning only one will apply the +1 max charge. The maximum number of charges you can obtain is 7 and the only way to obtain this maximum is through 3 ranks of shrouding strike and either cloak of shadows or shadow form.

THE TESTS: Here is the second round of testing I did. I used the same method described above (resetting ED and adding only 1 ability at a time that granted shadow charges, then verifying how many shadow charges could be obtained by both assassinating and marking targets) on the same character, the only difference being that I went into epic Stormhorns to ensure that the mobs were around my level. Both assassinating and marking resulted in gaining shadow charges.

In this first round I wanted to confirm my initial test above and see how many charges could be obtained from shrouding strike only using the dodge bonus granted by untouchable to verify the number of charges. Here are the conditions and results of this test:

shrouding strike rank 1 and untouchable - 1 charge, this is consistent with the results of the test above
shrouding strike rank 2 and untouchable - 1 charge
shrouding strike rank 3 and untouchable - 1 charge

Two things to note about this test. First, after I got the one charge I was unable to get rid of it. I tried waiting the two minutes at a tavern, completely shutting down and restarting the game, and completing a quest. This charge only went away when I reset my ED to start the next round of testing described below. So for the second and third conditions in this test, I already had the +1 dodge obtained from the first condition.

The second thing worth noting is that during this round of testing I noticed I still had shadow form on my hotbar from my reset. Even though the ability was greyed out, it still showed the number of charges I had. Like my dodge, it never rose above 1 and also stayed until I reset my ED. This provides an easier alternative than checking your dodge to verify how many charges you have without acquiring one of the abilities that uses shadow charges. I did another test using this verification method where I took shrouding strike without untouchable. In this series of tests (testing all 3 ranks of shrouding strike) I was never able to get above 1 charge.

For the next round I wanted to avoid taking untouchable to see if it was capping the number of charges I was able to obtain. Here are the conditions and results of this round:

shrouding strike rank 1 and cloak of shadows - 3 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 1, cloak of shadows, and shadow manipulation - 4 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 1, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 5 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 2, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 7 expected, 5 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 3, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 9 expected, 7 max charges obtained

In this test I have shown that cloak of shadows adds 1 to your max charges. During the two months between this testing session and the one posted above, I reset my enhancements at one point so that I had 2 ranks of shrouding strike and shadow form, allowing a maximum of 5 shadow charges and this is exactly what I would consistently cap out at. So it has been shown that both cloak of shadows and shadow form will each add 1 to your max charges. I wanted to find out if they would both add simultaneously or if they were mutually exclusive. Here are the conditions and results of that test:

shrouding strike rank 1, cloak of shadows, and shadow form - 4 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 2, cloak of shadows, and shadow form - 6 expected, 5 max charges obtained

This test leads me to believe that cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, and shadow form will each add to your max charges but are mutually exclusive, meaning only one will apply. It is impossible to test this for shadow manipulation and consume, however, since cloak of shadows is a prerequisite of them and will always take precedence if this conclusion is correct.

So there it is. I will bug report this and perhaps start a new thread summarizing my tests in an attempt to get some dev recognition of this if one does not reply in this thread. Once again I'd like to say that this kind of testing should not be the responsibility of the players. All abilities and game mechanics should be play-tested by the dev team before it even makes it onto Lamannia (/cough - tempest capstone - /cough). And if the Turbine team is willing to reimburse me the roughly 400k plat it cost to do all the ED resets and perhaps some compensation for the several hours it took (some free TP or astral shards would be awesome ;)), I'd be very grateful, but I'm not holding my breath.

ReaperAlexEU
01-13-2014, 08:32 AM
CONCLUSIONS: Shadow charges are totally borked. Here is the tl;dr version, details can be found below. If you only have shrouding strike (no matter how many ranks) and untouchable without any abilities that use shadow charges, then you can only get a maximum of +1 dodge. Shrouding strike coupled with an ability that uses shadow charges (i.e. cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, or shadow form) will give you 2 charges per rank. Cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, and shadow form seem to be mutually exclusive with each other, meaning only one will apply the +1 max charge. The maximum number of charges you can obtain is 7 and the only way to obtain this maximum is through 3 ranks of shrouding strike and either cloak of shadows or shadow form.

THE TESTS: Here is the second round of testing I did. I used the same method described above (resetting ED and adding only 1 ability at a time that granted shadow charges, then verifying how many shadow charges could be obtained by both assassinating and marking targets) on the same character, the only difference being that I went into epic Stormhorns to ensure that the mobs were around my level. Both assassinating and marking resulted in gaining shadow charges.

In this first round I wanted to confirm my initial test above and see how many charges could be obtained from shrouding strike only using the dodge bonus granted by untouchable to verify the number of charges. Here are the conditions and results of this test:

shrouding strike rank 1 and untouchable - 1 charge, this is consistent with the results of the test above
shrouding strike rank 2 and untouchable - 1 charge
shrouding strike rank 3 and untouchable - 1 charge

Two things to note about this test. First, after I got the one charge I was unable to get rid of it. I tried waiting the two minutes at a tavern, completely shutting down and restarting the game, and completing a quest. This charge only went away when I reset my ED to start the next round of testing described below. So for the second and third conditions in this test, I already had the +1 dodge obtained from the first condition.

The second thing worth noting is that during this round of testing I noticed I still had shadow form on my hotbar from my reset. Even though the ability was greyed out, it still showed the number of charges I had. Like my dodge, it never rose above 1 and also stayed until I reset my ED. This provides an easier alternative than checking your dodge to verify how many charges you have without acquiring one of the abilities that uses shadow charges. I did another test using this verification method where I took shrouding strike without untouchable. In this series of tests (testing all 3 ranks of shrouding strike) I was never able to get above 1 charge.

For the next round I wanted to avoid taking untouchable to see if it was capping the number of charges I was able to obtain. Here are the conditions and results of this round:

shrouding strike rank 1 and cloak of shadows - 3 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 1, cloak of shadows, and shadow manipulation - 4 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 1, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 5 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 2, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 7 expected, 5 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 3, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 9 expected, 7 max charges obtained

In this test I have shown that cloak of shadows adds 1 to your max charges. During the two months between this testing session and the one posted above, I reset my enhancements at one point so that I had 2 ranks of shrouding strike and shadow form, allowing a maximum of 5 shadow charges and this is exactly what I would consistently cap out at. So it has been shown that both cloak of shadows and shadow form will each add 1 to your max charges. I wanted to find out if they would both add simultaneously or if they were mutually exclusive. Here are the conditions and results of that test:

shrouding strike rank 1, cloak of shadows, and shadow form - 4 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 2, cloak of shadows, and shadow form - 6 expected, 5 max charges obtained

This test leads me to believe that cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, and shadow form will each add to your max charges but are mutually exclusive, meaning only one will apply. It is impossible to test this for shadow manipulation and consume, however, since cloak of shadows is a prerequisite of them and will always take precedence if this conclusion is correct.

So there it is. I will bug report this and perhaps start a new thread summarizing my tests in an attempt to get some dev recognition of this if one does not reply in this thread. Once again I'd like to say that this kind of testing should not be the responsibility of the players. All abilities and game mechanics should be play-tested by the dev team before it even makes it onto Lamannia (/cough - tempest capstone - /cough). And if the Turbine team is willing to reimburse me the roughly 400k plat it cost to do all the ED resets and perhaps some compensation for the several hours it took (some free TP or astral shards would be awesome ;)), I'd be very grateful, but I'm not holding my breath.

excellent work :) thank you for such as well thought out and detailed experiment :)

Silken-Akira
01-13-2014, 10:01 AM
CONCLUSIONS: Shadow charges are totally borked. Here is the tl;dr version, details can be found below. If you only have shrouding strike (no matter how many ranks) and untouchable without any abilities that use shadow charges, then you can only get a maximum of +1 dodge. Shrouding strike coupled with an ability that uses shadow charges (i.e. cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, or shadow form) will give you 2 charges per rank. Cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, and shadow form seem to be mutually exclusive with each other, meaning only one will apply the +1 max charge. The maximum number of charges you can obtain is 7 and the only way to obtain this maximum is through 3 ranks of shrouding strike and either cloak of shadows or shadow form.

THE TESTS: Here is the second round of testing I did. I used the same method described above (resetting ED and adding only 1 ability at a time that granted shadow charges, then verifying how many shadow charges could be obtained by both assassinating and marking targets) on the same character, the only difference being that I went into epic Stormhorns to ensure that the mobs were around my level. Both assassinating and marking resulted in gaining shadow charges.

In this first round I wanted to confirm my initial test above and see how many charges could be obtained from shrouding strike only using the dodge bonus granted by untouchable to verify the number of charges. Here are the conditions and results of this test:

shrouding strike rank 1 and untouchable - 1 charge, this is consistent with the results of the test above
shrouding strike rank 2 and untouchable - 1 charge
shrouding strike rank 3 and untouchable - 1 charge

Two things to note about this test. First, after I got the one charge I was unable to get rid of it. I tried waiting the two minutes at a tavern, completely shutting down and restarting the game, and completing a quest. This charge only went away when I reset my ED to start the next round of testing described below. So for the second and third conditions in this test, I already had the +1 dodge obtained from the first condition.

The second thing worth noting is that during this round of testing I noticed I still had shadow form on my hotbar from my reset. Even though the ability was greyed out, it still showed the number of charges I had. Like my dodge, it never rose above 1 and also stayed until I reset my ED. This provides an easier alternative than checking your dodge to verify how many charges you have without acquiring one of the abilities that uses shadow charges. I did another test using this verification method where I took shrouding strike without untouchable. In this series of tests (testing all 3 ranks of shrouding strike) I was never able to get above 1 charge.

For the next round I wanted to avoid taking untouchable to see if it was capping the number of charges I was able to obtain. Here are the conditions and results of this round:

shrouding strike rank 1 and cloak of shadows - 3 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 1, cloak of shadows, and shadow manipulation - 4 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 1, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 5 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 2, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 7 expected, 5 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 3, cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, and consume - 9 expected, 7 max charges obtained

In this test I have shown that cloak of shadows adds 1 to your max charges. During the two months between this testing session and the one posted above, I reset my enhancements at one point so that I had 2 ranks of shrouding strike and shadow form, allowing a maximum of 5 shadow charges and this is exactly what I would consistently cap out at. So it has been shown that both cloak of shadows and shadow form will each add 1 to your max charges. I wanted to find out if they would both add simultaneously or if they were mutually exclusive. Here are the conditions and results of that test:

shrouding strike rank 1, cloak of shadows, and shadow form - 4 expected, 3 max charges obtained
shrouding strike rank 2, cloak of shadows, and shadow form - 6 expected, 5 max charges obtained

This test leads me to believe that cloak of shadows, shadow manipulation, consume, and shadow form will each add to your max charges but are mutually exclusive, meaning only one will apply. It is impossible to test this for shadow manipulation and consume, however, since cloak of shadows is a prerequisite of them and will always take precedence if this conclusion is correct.

So there it is. I will bug report this and perhaps start a new thread summarizing my tests in an attempt to get some dev recognition of this if one does not reply in this thread. Once again I'd like to say that this kind of testing should not be the responsibility of the players. All abilities and game mechanics should be play-tested by the dev team before it even makes it onto Lamannia (/cough - tempest capstone - /cough). And if the Turbine team is willing to reimburse me the roughly 400k plat it cost to do all the ED resets and perhaps some compensation for the several hours it took (some free TP or astral shards would be awesome ;)), I'd be very grateful, but I'm not holding my breath.

thanks a bunch for testing this out.
As for my comment to Turbine, do please give this man something for his troubles that indeed should have been your work.