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View Full Version : How to fix Warchanter and bard in general



AzB
10-27-2013, 09:19 AM
Ok, the enhancement pass was 3 steps in the right direction. It provided bards with a great deal more, and the capstone of heal and wail were two things that we've all said bards have needed all along; real heals and some sort of dps.

However, if you want to play a melee bard the capstone doesn't help. For one thing, most melee bards are going to invest something in str and maybe not max out cha. The lack of feats essentially requires melee bards take 2 lvls of fighter to get the feats needed for more effective melee, so they lose out on the capstone.

And it turns out it's not that big a deal because in epics, wail cast by bards is... meh. Let me rephrase that, in EH it's meh, in EE it's useless. And that's on a completionist with 3 wiz pls. If it was at least available at 17th level like it was with a wiz, it would be useful for getting through the toughest levels in heroic, but alas that was not the choice made. Heal as well, should not be a 20th level spell, especially since even the worst bards can scroll heal by level 16. So step number 1 is moving these abilities from the capstone. I'd really like to see something original and unique for the bard capstone. More on that later.

Next, some form of spell similar to the cleric's divine might. 2 mins of cha bonus to str for 10-15 sp at a cost of 4ap on a tier 1 enhancement. This would be quite spectacular. I've tried taking 1 level of cleric on my bard for nothing else but this, and it was totally worth the loss of a level and the capstone. Being able to do this on a pure bard would be a huge step forward for Warchanter. It would even be a nice addition for the SS for those times when he absolutely, positively needs to swing a weapon... and with a maxxed out cha it would be quite nice. And for the love of <insert favorite diety here> don't make it a song or give it a 6 minute cooldown. It should be exactly like the cleric ability, only name it something different like poetic justice or something.

Next, another feat. Bards simply don't have enough. Even a pure casting bard (are there any?) can't get the basic feats. You need quicken, empower healing, extend, spell pen, and greater spell at least. And maybe SF:enchantment. Without spell pen, even otto's won't hit reliably in epics, and not at all in EEs. This leaves the bard very few tools in the box for epics and leaves them rather useless and frustrating to play. At least if you want to assume an active role. If you're happy just standing around singing and occasionally throwing a heal out there, then you have no complaints. But Warchanter should be a more active role. Actually, two feats would be my minimum, but I figure asking for one is more likely to be considered.

And last but not least. Fix the bugs. You knew this one was coming ( ;) ) so this is no surprise.

voodoogroves
10-27-2013, 11:33 AM
Ok, the enhancement pass was 3 steps in the right direction. It provided bards with a great deal more, and the capstone of heal and wail were two things that we've all said bards have needed all along; real heals and some sort of dps.

However, if you want to play a melee bard the capstone doesn't help. For one thing, most melee bards are going to invest something in str and maybe not max out cha. The lack of feats essentially requires melee bards take 2 lvls of fighter to get the feats needed for more effective melee, so they lose out on the capstone.

And it turns out it's not that big a deal because in epics, wail cast by bards is... meh. Let me rephrase that, in EH it's meh, in EE it's useless. And that's on a completionist with 3 wiz pls. If it was at least available at 17th level like it was with a wiz, it would be useful for getting through the toughest levels in heroic, but alas that was not the choice made. Heal as well, should not be a 20th level spell, especially since even the worst bards can scroll heal by level 16. So step number 1 is moving these abilities from the capstone. I'd really like to see something original and unique for the bard capstone. More on that later.

Next, some form of spell similar to the cleric's divine might. 2 mins of cha bonus to str for 10-15 sp at a cost of 4ap on a tier 1 enhancement. This would be quite spectacular. I've tried taking 1 level of cleric on my bard for nothing else but this, and it was totally worth the loss of a level and the capstone. Being able to do this on a pure bard would be a huge step forward for Warchanter. It would even be a nice addition for the SS for those times when he absolutely, positively needs to swing a weapon... and with a maxxed out cha it would be quite nice. And for the love of <insert favorite diety here> don't make it a song or give it a 6 minute cooldown. It should be exactly like the cleric ability, only name it something different like poetic justice or something.

Next, another feat. Bards simply don't have enough. Even a pure casting bard (are there any?) can't get the basic feats. You need quicken, empower healing, extend, spell pen, and greater spell at least. And maybe SF:enchantment. Without spell pen, even otto's won't hit reliably in epics, and not at all in EEs. This leaves the bard very few tools in the box for epics and leaves them rather useless and frustrating to play. At least if you want to assume an active role. If you're happy just standing around singing and occasionally throwing a heal out there, then you have no complaints. But Warchanter should be a more active role. Actually, two feats would be my minimum, but I figure asking for one is more likely to be considered.

And last but not least. Fix the bugs. You knew this one was coming ( ;) ) so this is no surprise.

Some good stuff. Personally, I fall a bit different in HOW I'd like to see both trees boosted, but completely agree on the WHY.

For SS, I'd like to see Marigold Crown-like things extended. Give the bard an option to focus on Enchant, Necro, Evocation. Make Prodigy and the capstone key off of that - adding a bonus to the relevant school and adding a spell from the appropriate school (Mass Hold Monster, Wail, dunno for evocation, maybe Cyclonic Blast).

In general, I'd like each class to add ONE new buff song, and the other abilities they take are tagged onto that song or another song. Toss Arcane Might, Spellsong Vigor, etc. both as adds on Spellsong Trance. Make Sustaining Song be an adder to Inspire Greatness. Speed up the bard buff time.

Give Warchanters a personal DPS boosting song - I wouldn't do the STR for SP like divine might, but something on around T2. Maybe add shrieking or sonic damage to attacks?

I'd also collapse Iced Edges and Gathering Cold. Gathering is 1 per rank, 3 ranks. Make it 2/rank and scale the cold damage added. That helps clear room on that tier for the above ability.

I'd also scale Skaldic Rage at WC 18 and 20.

The WC capstone is pretty poor, given the wealth of accuracy and deadly items floating around. In addition to boosting Skaldic Rage as part of the capstone, add another +1 to inspire courage.

Finally, that silly "freeze" power scales WORSE than Wail. Make it dependent on 1/2 level, 1/2 bard level or bard level + CHA. I'd kinda prefer it be tied to actual bard levels, but make sure Fatesinger adds in that mix.

AzB
10-27-2013, 12:04 PM
In general, I'd like each class to add ONE new buff song, and the other abilities they take are tagged onto that song or another song. Toss Arcane Might, Spellsong Vigor, etc. both as adds on Spellsong Trance. Make Sustaining Song be an adder to Inspire Greatness. Speed up the bard buff time.



This is a terrific idea. Several similar ideas have been mentioned before, even years ago folks mentioned some kind of medley or some way of combining several songs so buffing didn't take so much time.



Give Warchanters a personal DPS boosting song - I wouldn't do the STR for SP like divine might, but something on around T2. Maybe add shrieking or sonic damage to attacks?



That's too close to reign, which is a no brainer for any bard in Fatesinger or as a twist for a melee in Dreadnought. After playing with divine might, I stand by my suggestion. It is such a simple, effective, and completely synergistic power... at low levels it's a temporary boost of ~8 pts to strength for a cha maxxed bard, and in epic levels it can easily add 16-18 temp pts to str. Being based on cha, it scales as you level, giving a nice epic boost in Fatesinger if you use the cha boosts. It also allows a variety of weapons for a cha based melee, as you don't have to have or use the 3 weapons that do cha to damage available in game. Actually, skaldic rage could easily be modified to be cha based to scale with level rather than being a flat +4. But I'd really prefer the ability to be a spell rather than another song.

voodoogroves
10-27-2013, 04:53 PM
That's too close to reign, which is a no brainer for any bard in Fatesinger or as a twist for a melee in Dreadnought. After playing with divine might, I stand by my suggestion. It is such a simple, effective, and completely synergistic power... at low levels it's a temporary boost of ~8 pts to strength for a cha maxxed bard, and in epic levels it can easily add 16-18 temp pts to str. Being based on cha, it scales as you level, giving a nice epic boost in Fatesinger if you use the cha boosts. It also allows a variety of weapons for a cha based melee, as you don't have to have or use the 3 weapons that do cha to damage available in game. Actually, skaldic rage could easily be modified to be cha based to scale with level rather than being a flat +4. But I'd really prefer the ability to be a spell rather than another song.

Fair enough.

I'd still rather see Skaldic Rage scale - maybe not tied to CHA, but scale w/ WC core (so it's meaningful at 20). As it is, it's a pretty decent 1 level dip for anyone else - no way near as good as Cleric 2 or Fighter 1 but it isn't horrid.

And it shouldn't be.

I also wouldn't mind a big-monster use-a-song strike. Big single target damage or CC ... or cleave AOE. Instead of a song that boosts DPS by adding a buff for a duration, how about a big freaking screaming smash. Lots of [w] or some CC (or destruction/sunder) or AOE.

maddmatt70
10-27-2013, 05:48 PM
Ok, the enhancement pass was 3 steps in the right direction. It provided bards with a great deal more, and the capstone of heal and wail were two things that we've all said bards have needed all along; real heals and some sort of dps.

However, if you want to play a melee bard the capstone doesn't help. For one thing, most melee bards are going to invest something in str and maybe not max out cha. The lack of feats essentially requires melee bards take 2 lvls of fighter to get the feats needed for more effective melee, so they lose out on the capstone.

And it turns out it's not that big a deal because in epics, wail cast by bards is... meh. Let me rephrase that, in EH it's meh, in EE it's useless. And that's on a completionist with 3 wiz pls. If it was at least available at 17th level like it was with a wiz, it would be useful for getting through the toughest levels in heroic, but alas that was not the choice made. Heal as well, should not be a 20th level spell, especially since even the worst bards can scroll heal by level 16. So step number 1 is moving these abilities from the capstone. I'd really like to see something original and unique for the bard capstone. More on that later.

Next, some form of spell similar to the cleric's divine might. 2 mins of cha bonus to str for 10-15 sp at a cost of 4ap on a tier 1 enhancement. This would be quite spectacular. I've tried taking 1 level of cleric on my bard for nothing else but this, and it was totally worth the loss of a level and the capstone. Being able to do this on a pure bard would be a huge step forward for Warchanter. It would even be a nice addition for the SS for those times when he absolutely, positively needs to swing a weapon... and with a maxxed out cha it would be quite nice. And for the love of <insert favorite diety here> don't make it a song or give it a 6 minute cooldown. It should be exactly like the cleric ability, only name it something different like poetic justice or something.

Next, another feat. Bards simply don't have enough. Even a pure casting bard (are there any?) can't get the basic feats. You need quicken, empower healing, extend, spell pen, and greater spell at least. And maybe SF:enchantment. Without spell pen, even otto's won't hit reliably in epics, and not at all in EEs. This leaves the bard very few tools in the box for epics and leaves them rather useless and frustrating to play. At least if you want to assume an active role. If you're happy just standing around singing and occasionally throwing a heal out there, then you have no complaints. But Warchanter should be a more active role. Actually, two feats would be my minimum, but I figure asking for one is more likely to be considered.

And last but not least. Fix the bugs. You knew this one was coming ( ;) ) so this is no surprise.

I disagree with a lot of what you post here. First, wail is fairly useful on ee, but not as an insta-kill type spell, but as a debuff spell. I cast it all the time on my spell caster bard to debuff and take some of the hit points off the mobs on ee.

I do not get what you mean when you say bard must have fighter levels for more feats. I did go with human 16 bard 3 ranger 1 cleric on my twf melee bard so thus I did get the human bonus feat and ranger twf, but I got all the feats that I was looking for and then some. More feats would be a nice thing of course, but are not necessarily essential for a melee bard. I took the ranger levels more for offhand % attack you get at ranger 3 and some of the positive spell power and sneak damage then for the bonus twf.

I agree the warchanter level 20 capstone should be better. The inspire heroics buff is really lacking. I wish it was longer then 12 seconds and was better. I do not think a bard needs divine might, but they need something in the capstone.

My caster bard has pretty much everything she could want for feats other then epic spell penetration, but I will get that when the cap goes up to 30. Not sure what you mean by feats. Spell penetration is only an issue for me when I fight Drow so that is very little concern to me because there are so few drow. Spell penetration is a problem for all classes though unless they have a bunch of past lives or something vs. drow. The vast majority of mobs in game are not drow (90%+ of epics) and therefore the real potential issue would be landing spells dcwise, but I do not have issues landing so not sure what you are talking about.

Actually the devs fixed the vast majority of the bard bugs. Like fascinate undead and constructs were broken and are now fixed so not sure what you are talking about.

My bard rabiez is one of my most powerful characters. She does decent melee dps, can easily heal an entire party, and has decent party buffs, can cc with songs, etc. I have plenty to do with her and she is very active. My bard hangover pure level 20 spellsinger is also very powerful she can heal a party very easily, cc mobs, etc. She does little personal dps, but she can do everything else. Both rabiez and hangover got a ton of different songs and abilities that they did not have prior to the enhancement pass.

AzB
10-27-2013, 11:25 PM
I disagree with a lot of what you post here. First, wail is fairly useful on ee, but not as an insta-kill type spell, but as a debuff spell. I cast it all the time on my spell caster bard to debuff and take some of the hit points off the mobs on ee.

That's useful, but not really all that helpful if you are trying to produce some dps. We are talking Warchanter here. This is supposed to be the option for those players who don't want to be a support character, stand back and watch after they sing songs, to help other people kill... they want to participate in the killing. If wail isn't killing, like it's supposed to, it's not terribly useful. I've got other choices for debuffs, I don't have to use wail. But I don't have any other options for killing, especially not insta killing.



I do not get what you mean when you say bard must have fighter levels for more feats. I did go with human 16 bard 3 ranger 1 cleric on my twf melee bard so thus I did get the human bonus feat and ranger twf, but I got all the feats that I was looking for and then some. More feats would be a nice thing of course, but are not necessarily essential for a melee bard. I took the ranger levels more for offhand % attack you get at ranger 3 and some of the positive spell power and sneak damage then for the bonus twf.

Again, we're talking melee bard... warchanter. You need cleave and great cleave at the very least. That's what the two fighter levels give you. Also, my bard is a completionist, so I lose a feat slot for that feat as well.




My bard rabiez is one of my most powerful characters. She does decent melee dps, can easily heal an entire party, and has decent party buffs, can cc with songs, etc. I have plenty to do with her and she is very active. My bard hangover pure level 20 spellsinger is also very powerful she can heal a party very easily, cc mobs, etc. She does little personal dps, but she can do everything else. Both rabiez and hangover got a ton of different songs and abilities that they did not have prior to the enhancement pass.

I agree, the enhancement pass made huge headway. But I'm saying, for a melee based bard, it's still lacking. You may be happy with your caster bard, but I'm not happy with the melee bard. What is decent melee dps to you? Some of the guys I run with crit with 1900hps. While I don't expect that, something ~200-300 would be useful.

I see a lot of defensive attitude here, I'm not bashing the bard. I'm simply saying that divine might makes the difference on a melee bard. I've tried it, it's very nice. With a 46 CHA, that is +18 to str. This equates to some nice damage, the big bonus is coming not at the expense of CHA, but because of CHA. The higher the CHA, the more damage bonus. It works great, is not op, and that's why I suggest it. I'm still not out dps'ing any of the melee types, but at least I'm putting out enough damage to really contribute. And maybe even kill well enough to solo.

maddmatt70
10-27-2013, 11:37 PM
That's useful, but not really all that helpful if you are trying to produce some dps. We are talking Warchanter here. This is supposed to be the option for those players who don't want to be a support character, stand back and watch after they sing songs, to help other people kill... they want to participate in the killing. If wail isn't killing, like it's supposed to, it's not terribly useful. I've got other choices for debuffs, I don't have to use wail. But I don't have any other options for killing, especially not insta killing.


Warchanters do not get wail spellsingers do so not sure what the heck you are saying. Yeah you do not have to use wail because a warchanter does not get wail so again not sure what you are saying.




Again, we're talking melee bard... warchanter. You need cleave and great cleave at the very least. That's what the two fighter levels give you. Also, my bard is a completionist, so I lose a feat slot for that feat as well.


Dude you got to learn to communicate better your thread title says warchanter and bards in general. My bard has cleave, great cleave, and overwhelming crit. Hey nobody made you take that completionist feat. It is a pretty bad feat for a melee bard. Completionist does not give much dps, many hit points, and only a little saves. It is a bad feat for a melee bard.



I agree, the enhancement pass made huge headway. But I'm saying, for a melee based bard, it's still lacking. You may be happy with your caster bard, but I'm not happy with the melee bard. What is decent melee dps to you? Some of the guys I run with crit with 1900hps. While I don't expect that, something ~200-300 would be useful.

I see a lot of defensive attitude here, I'm not bashing the bard. I'm simply saying that divine might makes the difference on a melee bard. I've tried it, it's very nice. With a 46 CHA, that is +18 to str. This equates to some nice damage, the big bonus is coming not at the expense of CHA, but because of CHA. The higher the CHA, the more damage bonus. It works great, is not op, and that's why I suggest it. I'm still not out dps'ing any of the melee types, but at least I'm putting out enough damage to really contribute. And maybe even kill well enough to solo. yeah there are alot of ways to give a bard dps. you do not need divine might to do so. First of all I have two bards second off all I have all these feats that you say you can not get. You are really not making a lot of sense.

Actually the enhancement greatly improved the dps and other features of my melee bard as well. If you bother to compare before the enhancement pass and after you will see you gained a lot.

Zachski
10-28-2013, 03:17 AM
I have a few thoughts on this matter.

The disclaimer, of course, is that I am not that well-versed in DDO to begin with, so bearing that in mind...

I've heard a suggestion that Wail should be replaced with Weird (which is, more or less, a multi-targetting Phantasmal Killer for those that don't know) which would make more sense for the Bard, who tends to rely heavily on illusion spells in the original source material. This sounds fair to me and is a bit more lore-friendly than Wail (though Wail makes sense thematically because the Bard is a master of his or her voice, and Wail is... well, a wail.)

Warchanter... I kinda like the skaldic warrior of the frozen north theme they have going for it, though the over emphasis on cold damage, while very tasty flavor-wise, causes some problems. The Bard should get SOME bonus for having Charisma as a warchanter so that people aren't "required" to splash Cleric for Divine Might.

At the same time, it doesn't feel right to simply give them a reskinned Divine Might that maybe uses a song instead of spell points. (Not to mention that with the Musical Studies glitch which may or may not still exist, bards are currently hurting for songs. Ironic, considering that once, they complained that they would never be able to use all their songs at all.)

What would you guys think about a song that, when sung, would add an amount of Sonic damage to each attack based on your Perform skill? (like, for example, 1d4 + Perform skill to start with. Not 1d4 + D20 + Perform, just 1d4 + Perform) This damage would upgrade with each rank in Warchanter (including a larger burst of damage on a crit). The capstone ability would allow you to apply this damage to everyone in your party based off of your perform skill.

Another thing... I think bards might need more sonic damage potential as spellcasters. Their class skill, Perform, improves Sonic damage the same way that Spellcraft boosts elemental damage (...Though I and several others still think that Perform needs to improve positive spellpower, too, non-stacking with Heal) And yet they have basically no real benefit from Sonic damage (you never use sonic spells for their damage, instead you use them for their secondary effects.... or their box-breaking power). There are spells that just outright deal Sonic damage in the books, so it's not like they'd have to make stuff up to do it (not that I would necessarily mind - I long accepted that DDO wasn't "The Tabletop Game: Online" since I first heard of its existence)

@madmatt

While I would agree that Warchanter Bards do more DPS now than they did before, there are some problems. First of all is that everyone else's DPS has increased proportionally more, and the demands for DPS have increased as well.

It's like gaining a fifty-cent raise when inflation has increased so that everything is $10 more, and everyone else got a $5 raise. Or something like that.

In short, Bard's increased damage can't match the inflated damage needed.

Silken-Akira
10-28-2013, 05:06 AM
I have been looking into bard as my second live for the last 2 weeks now.
And all I heard is how is how much it is bugged and lacking.
anything positive about bards? some nice builds? Or is it really that bad?

AzB
10-28-2013, 01:03 PM
I have been looking into bard as my second live for the last 2 weeks now.
And all I heard is how is how much it is bugged and lacking.
anything positive about bards? some nice builds? Or is it really that bad?

I didn't mean to sound so negative. It is a fun class, and multiclasses nicely with several other classes. There are a few bugs, but none of them are game breaking or really a big deal for a TR. Learning which enhancements are bugged can save you a few ap while leveling, but that's true for several classes. And it's easy enough to change enhancements later even if you don't catch it.

The original idea for this thread was how to give any bard, but especially warchanter some teeth and still stay pure. It has deviated into a thread where everyone points out my flaws, and defends what they think a bard should be. I would ignore it for the most part.

But if you are interested in a melee bard, look into taking 1 level of cleric and picking up the first tier enhancement divine might. It has made my melee bard a lot more fun.

voodoogroves
10-28-2013, 01:09 PM
I didn't mean to sound so negative. It is a fun class, and multiclasses nicely with several other classes. There are a few bugs, but none of them are game breaking or really a big deal for a TR. Learning which enhancements are bugged can save you a few ap while leveling, but that's true for several classes. And it's easy enough to change enhancements later even if you don't catch it.

The original idea for this thread was how to give any bard, but especially warchanter some teeth and still stay pure. It has deviated into a thread where everyone points out my flaws, and defends what they think a bard should be. I would ignore it for the most part.

But if you are interested in a melee bard, look into taking 1 level of cleric and picking up the first tier enhancement divine might. It has made my melee bard a lot more fun.

Yeah - absolutely - also didn't mean to sound so negative.

I have a bard who's a ranger/cleric multi (and fighter/cleric would also be solid) - they do very well as a melee bard. I just wish there was some serious trade-off / consideration for staying pure.

supott
10-28-2013, 01:30 PM
Actually the devs fixed the vast majority of the bard bugs. Like fascinate undead and constructs were broken and are now fixed so not sure what you are talking about.


Fascinate Undead is still broken and was never fixed!

Can anyone confirm that it is already working? Am I the only one that it isn't working for?

voodoogroves
10-28-2013, 01:45 PM
Still doesn't work for me either.

Thumbed_Servant
10-28-2013, 01:56 PM
Ok, the enhancement pass was 3 steps in the right direction. It provided bards with a great deal more, and the capstone of heal and wail were two things that we've all said bards have needed all along; real heals and some sort of dps.

However, if you want to play a melee bard the capstone doesn't help. For one thing, most melee bards are going to invest something in str and maybe not max out cha. The lack of feats essentially requires melee bards take 2 lvls of fighter to get the feats needed for more effective melee, so they lose out on the capstone.

And it turns out it's not that big a deal because in epics, wail cast by bards is... meh. Let me rephrase that, in EH it's meh, in EE it's useless. And that's on a completionist with 3 wiz pls. If it was at least available at 17th level like it was with a wiz, it would be useful for getting through the toughest levels in heroic, but alas that was not the choice made. Heal as well, should not be a 20th level spell, especially since even the worst bards can scroll heal by level 16. So step number 1 is moving these abilities from the capstone. I'd really like to see something original and unique for the bard capstone. More on that later.

Next, some form of spell similar to the cleric's divine might. 2 mins of cha bonus to str for 10-15 sp at a cost of 4ap on a tier 1 enhancement. This would be quite spectacular. I've tried taking 1 level of cleric on my bard for nothing else but this, and it was totally worth the loss of a level and the capstone. Being able to do this on a pure bard would be a huge step forward for Warchanter. It would even be a nice addition for the SS for those times when he absolutely, positively needs to swing a weapon... and with a maxxed out cha it would be quite nice. And for the love of <insert favorite diety here> don't make it a song or give it a 6 minute cooldown. It should be exactly like the cleric ability, only name it something different like poetic justice or something.

Next, another feat. Bards simply don't have enough. Even a pure casting bard (are there any?) can't get the basic feats. You need quicken, empower healing, extend, spell pen, and greater spell at least. And maybe SF:enchantment. Without spell pen, even otto's won't hit reliably in epics, and not at all in EEs. This leaves the bard very few tools in the box for epics and leaves them rather useless and frustrating to play. At least if you want to assume an active role. If you're happy just standing around singing and occasionally throwing a heal out there, then you have no complaints. But Warchanter should be a more active role. Actually, two feats would be my minimum, but I figure asking for one is more likely to be considered.

And last but not least. Fix the bugs. You knew this one was coming ( ;) ) so this is no surprise.

WHY must EVERY class be combat capable? Bards were always support characters with a splash of everything. Making every single class as combat capable as the next just starts making every class ....more of the same?

And what is wrong with singing and throwing out the occassonal heal? Bards' perform skill and thus the dc's of their songs are SO much higher than spell casters can get with their spells that singing is a bards most effective ability. And who dislikes a toon that can heal them? A bard in a party magnifies the rest of the party with the spell and bard song buffs and can then sing mobs into submission for crowd control. We have 2 dedicated offensive arcane classes, and many more dedicated melee and ranged dps classes; WHY can't bards be the jack of all trades support class? What is wrong with having a class that maybe isn't Epic Elite soloable but IS an asset to any party, even epic elite parties?

If a person professes to LOVE bards, why can they not love bards for what they are? love them for being a support class?
If a person doesn't love them as is and wants a more offensive toon, then play one of the offensive classes???...don't ask for Bards to be turned into...into something else, something other than bards.

AzB
10-28-2013, 03:58 PM
WHY must EVERY class be combat capable? Bards were always support characters with a splash of everything. Making every single class as combat capable as the next just starts making every class ....more of the same?

And what is wrong with singing and throwing out the occassonal heal? Bards' perform skill and thus the dc's of their songs are SO much higher than spell casters can get with their spells that singing is a bards most effective ability. And who dislikes a toon that can heal them? A bard in a party magnifies the rest of the party with the spell and bard song buffs and can then sing mobs into submission for crowd control. We have 2 dedicated offensive arcane classes, and many more dedicated melee and ranged dps classes; WHY can't bards be the jack of all trades support class? What is wrong with having a class that maybe isn't Epic Elite soloable but IS an asset to any party, even epic elite parties?

I'll take one last stab (pun intended ;) ) at this.

First off; why must every class be combat capable?

Two reasons. First, this is not PnP DnD. It's a video game that is focused on action. Even in PnP, the bard had more teeth. I've played them in PnP, and they were vastly superior to the DDO bard. Partly because in a role playing game things like charms and enchantments can be very useful for avoiding fights, getting information, etc. These things are not very important in DDO. But they are also more versatile... they can be support characters, but they can also do other things really well. In DDO, it's been a long, uphill struggle to get them past being a strictly support character. The second reason every class should have the *option* to be combat capable is that much of the game is soloed now. You may not prefer to play that way, but it is a reality for many of us. A support character has no chance of beating a red name in a video game when all red names have blanket immunity to everything a bard brings to the table. If you have no melee, you're not going to finish many quests solo. And I'm not talking epic elite, I'm talking heroic elite and even hard. Go try Running with the Devils with a first life pure bard. Actually, most of the quest is pretty trivial, you can run past most everything in the game. But when you get to the end fight, what do you do? You can't charm, fascinate, dance, hold, or otherwise subdue the rednames while you beat on them. Even one at a time, you aren't going to have enough heals to make it through all the end fights before dying doing 30pts of damage a swing. Wands or scrolls might be an option... scroll up an ice storm to fight in and that might help. But wands and scrolls in this game, at least the offensive ones, are severely neutered.

And what is wrong with singing and throwing out the occassonal heal? Absolutely nothing. And there is nothing in the way bards are engineered now to stop you from doing that. And there's nothing in my suggestions that would stop you or diminish your capability to do that if that's the way you want to play.


If a person professes to LOVE bards, why can they not love bards for what they are? love them for being a support class?
If a person doesn't love them as is and wants a more offensive toon, then play one of the offensive classes???...don't ask for Bards to be turned into...into something else, something other than bards.

As mentioned above, the bard was never meant to be only a support class in DnD. They were originally designed to be extremely versatile and could have thieving skills, master fighter capability, spell casting including some offensive spells. You could pick and choose from these abilities to make the bard whatever you wanted. You could make a jack of all trades/master of none. You could create an enchanter or a support character. You could even make them melee based or with impressive thieving skills. You weren't tied down to only the support role.

So I'm not saying you can't love and play the bard exactly how you are. I'm simply trying to get some ideas for options for some of those other things... While staying pure. It would simply make the bard more interesting. And clearly, it's one of the least played classes on my server. Even counting the multiclasses, it's way behind every other class in popularity.

Part of the issue is game design. The developers have taken a very lazy way out using the "boss fight" video game mechanic that goes way back to the first linear action video games. And barriers that magically disappear when the mobs are dead. (Actually, this could be valid in some adventures, but it's waaay overused and limits other classes like rogues or even wizards as well) This is another lazy game design feature that requires dps to solve problems. But these things aren't going to change. But we have seen some compromises in the bard character in recent years. I'd like to keep it progressing, not to eliminate the support bard, but to add options to the class to make it more viable for solo play and today's pugging scene where everyone is basically soloing in the same instance at the same time. (Thank you for the bard sprint devs, that was a huge help!)

So there's no need to get defensive. I'm not trying to ruin the bard you like to play. I'm only expressing my opinion that it would be a more popular class if there were some more options. There's nothing wrong with having more choices, is there?

Thumbed_Servant
10-28-2013, 05:07 PM
I'm not trying to ruin the bard you like to play. I'm only expressing my opinion that it would be a more popular class if there were some more options. There's nothing wrong with having more choices, is there?

Then well said. I hope you get the additional options you like to make bards more fun.

Yeah, I'm somewhat, somewhat anti-solo play. I have a good circle of friends, run a guild, and usually play a healer so I'm seldom soloing; to be honest, never quite understood other people wanting to solo all the time. But, as you say, and this is a very important point: it is a video game, not the p&p game, and there is much to DDO that is because of it being a video game.

Still, and I have to wonder, why play bard if you want a more potent class for soloing and more potent classes are available?

AzB
10-28-2013, 05:44 PM
Then well said. I hope you get the additional options you like to make bards more fun.

Yeah, I'm somewhat, somewhat anti-solo play. I have a good circle of friends, run a guild, and usually play a healer so I'm seldom soloing; to be honest, never quite understood other people wanting to solo all the time. But, as you say, and this is a very important point: it is a video game, not the p&p game, and there is much to DDO that is because of it being a video game.

Still, and I have to wonder, why play bard if you want a more potent class for soloing and more potent classes are available?

I am also anti-solo play. But the reality of my lifestyle and the fact that many of the people I've run with in the past are now gone, I have to pug or play solo. And if you pug, you pretty much have to be prepared to solo because a significant portion of the time you are either fending for yourself because the whole party ran off the other direction, or because they're all dead and you have them all in your backpack. ;)

Why play bard? That's an excellent question. I enjoy having versatile characters that can fill many roles. Partly because I'm moody and like different things on different days, ;) but mostly because I like that playstyle. I've tried every class in DDO at least once pure, and at least a couple times multiclassed and I still keep coming back to bards because they have so much potential. I find playing a pure melee or a pure caster rather boring most of the time.

My other option is druid as it seems to lend itself to a hybrid melee/offensive caster fairly well, and can still do some healing. It is not as cool as the bard though.

Steevye
10-28-2013, 06:39 PM
As mentioned above, the bard was never meant to be only a support class in DnD. They were originally designed to be extremely versatile and could have thieving skills, master fighter capability, spell casting including some offensive spells. You could pick and choose from these abilities to make the bard whatever you wanted. You could make a jack of all trades/master of none. You could create an enchanter or a support character. You could even make them melee based or with impressive thieving skills. You weren't tied down to only the support role.

So I'm not saying you can't love and play the bard exactly how you are. I'm simply trying to get some ideas for options for some of those other things... While staying pure. It would simply make the bard more interesting. And clearly, it's one of the least played classes on my server. Even counting the multiclasses, it's way behind every other class in popularity.

Part of the issue is game design. The developers have taken a very lazy way out using the "boss fight" video game mechanic that goes way back to the first linear action video games. And barriers that magically disappear when the mobs are dead. (Actually, this could be valid in some adventures, but it's waaay overused and limits other classes like rogues or even wizards as well) This is another lazy game design feature that requires dps to solve problems. But these things aren't going to change. But we have seen some compromises in the bard character in recent years. I'd like to keep it progressing, not to eliminate the support bard, but to add options to the class to make it more viable for solo play and today's pugging scene where everyone is basically soloing in the same instance at the same time. (Thank you for the bard sprint devs, that was a huge help!)



I definitely agree with all this. I always tell people I don't consider my bard main a support character, but she can be that too. In PnP, my primary bard was an enchantress, and I did my best to replicate that here in DDO. With the Fatesinger ED, I'm definitely feeling happier with how DDO treats the class. I've done some dabbling into magister and draconic for twists, but nothing earth shattering, basically just support bumps like the fort save draconic feat. I don't like soloing, but I definitely hate pugging more now than ever, and I'd prefer trusting my enchanting ability to 5 other people who will be a coin toss whether or not I can tolerate grouping with them.

But limited to a support role? That's boring. I can do that role, heal, and combat cast/melee in between and have more fun. That's just the way I prefer to play the class. And if/when DDO incorporates more "avoid battle" scenarios, like the "Deal with a Dragon" in the King's Forest, I'll have a helluva lot more fun with this game (kinda like when I run Partycrashers, it's just sooooo freakin fun).

Thumbed_Servant
10-28-2013, 06:55 PM
... I enjoy having versatile characters that can fill many roles. Partly because I'm moody and like different things on different days, ;) but mostly because I like that playstyle. I've tried every class in DDO at least once pure, and at least a couple times multiclassed and I still keep coming back to bards because they have so much potential. I find playing a pure melee or a pure caster rather boring most of the time.

My other option is druid as it seems to lend itself to a hybrid melee/offensive caster fairly well, and can still do some healing. It is not as cool as the bard though.

Try cleric again. With the Warpriest tree you now have more oomf to melee, can offensive cast with the Divine Disciple tree, and of course still heal :)

Zachski
10-28-2013, 06:57 PM
I can't actually think of a time where Bards were ever meant to be pure support (except maybe some Final Fantasy games, when they weren't busy being a waste of a party slot)

But I can think of times where Bards were meant to combine magic and melee in combat, with music to make up for their lack of specialization.

Bards get Longswords as a natural proficiency. They're meant to be a wandering minstrel who could handle his own when attacked by brigands, and then brag about it with much embellishment when he arrives at his destination.

There's another thing. In PNP, you have a group of friends. You are always going to have this group of friends. You are almost never going to be the only player a DM has. Pure support classes are feasible and fun to play.

In MMOs overall, however, that's a different story. You are not guaranteed a party. You are not guaranteed a slot in a party. Your usefulness is entirely determined by the lack of other party members' usefulness to make up for their shortcomings.

A pure support character, while desired at end-game, is going to have about ten times as much problem getting to end-game solo while everyone else solos there no problem - and they won't party BECAUSE they have such an easy time soloing. Let's face it, being in a party is actually a lot more work than simply fighting yourself. Sure, it'll take longer, but you don't have to deal with other people and trying to get them to listen to you or to listen to the party leader (or trying to get the party leader to actually lead)

Imagine being a bard who never gets a chance to buff the entire group because instead of waiting for everyone to enter, people charge ahead as soon as they get into the instance, leading to them being stretched out. Lots of impatient players, especially early on - and for characters who can't solo, that beginning period actually takes a lot longer to get through than characters who CAN solo.

Steevye
10-28-2013, 07:13 PM
Imagine being a bard who never gets a chance to buff the entire group because instead of waiting for everyone to enter, people charge ahead as soon as they get into the instance, leading to them being stretched out. Lots of impatient players, especially early on - and for characters who can't solo, that beginning period actually takes a lot longer to get through than characters who CAN solo.

Bards can run and buff, but even that's moot if the other 5 people are halfway thru an instance by the time your loading screen ends.

I find running with static friends, usually guildmates, to be superior. It mirrors my PnP experiences mostly.

Zachski
10-28-2013, 07:29 PM
Bards can run and buff, but even that's moot if the other 5 people are halfway thru an instance by the time your loading screen ends.

I find running with static friends, usually guildmates, to be superior. It mirrors my PnP experiences mostly.

Yeah, Bards can run and buff, but that's hard when the Barbarian is halfway through the dungeon getting mobbed by half the monsters, the cleric's still loading the instance, and the other players are running around trying to find treasure the Barbarian missed :P

LavidDynch
10-28-2013, 07:37 PM
I believe the answer is in fatesinger. It is just a weak destiny;
* add +6 or so to inspire courage (you know that group utility thingie that can do something against red named!),
* make the tier 5 'Turn the tide' functional on all enemies and half the cooldown.

No others than bards would select this destiny as their main with my suggested changes, and they would once again be popular in groups, at the moment they are not filling their shoes.

The evoloution of the most powerfull group buff, inspire courage, has been threading water far too long.

i.e

in module 1 - i believe Inspired Courage (IC) gave around +6 dmg, and the fighters back then had around 1d10 + 20 + bard song = 1d10 +26. Shade math on that is around a 30% boost.

in module 19 - IC is all from 4-10 (depending on build), and we do what, 3d10 + 76. add bard songs to that = ~3d10 + 82. Shade math on that would be "who cares lets bring in some other class that has slightly higher DPS and higher survivability".

Just my 2 cents -- don't have a bard anymore --

Steevye
10-28-2013, 07:39 PM
Yeah, Bards can run and buff, but that's hard when the Barbarian is halfway through the dungeon getting mobbed by half the monsters, the cleric's still loading the instance, and the other players are running around trying to find treasure the Barbarian missed :P

When I had a barbarian, I was probably in the minority in that I stayed pretty damned close to the bards or the divines for my own personal (and theirs too) safety. Basically I just translate that if someone is not staying pretty decently close to the group most of the time that they don't want the buffs, and that's ok by me, I'll use my SP and song charges for combat related necessities. It's nice to not have to feel like everyone under the sun needs hage and inspire _____ all the time. If they do, they can hang in my vicinity, and they'll get it liberally.

Steevye
10-28-2013, 07:46 PM
I believe the answer is in fatesinger. It is just a weak destiny;
* add +6 or so to inspire courage (you know that group utility thingie that can do something against red named!),
* make the tier 5 'Turn the tide' functional on all enemies and half the cooldown.

No others than bards would select this destiny as their main with my suggested changes, and they would once again be popular in groups, at the moment they are not filling their shoes.

The evoloution of the most powerfull group buff, inspire courage, has been threading water far too long.

i.e

in module 1 - i believe Inspired Courage (IC) gave around +6 dmg, and the fighters back then had around 1d10 + 20 + bard song = 1d10 +26. Shade math on that is around a 30% boost.

in module 19 - IC is all from 4-10 (depending on build), and we do what, 3d10 + 76. add bard songs to that = ~3d10 + 82. Shade math on that would be "who cares lets bring in some other class that has slightly higher DPS and higher survivability".

Just my 2 cents -- don't have a bard anymore --

You're spot on the "epic" moment (it's hardly epic at all). It doesn't work on bosses? Everyone else's does...which I simply consider absolute bull****. Why can't it? It's not like it does nearly as much damage as FotW's or the blitz. I mean...come on, fair is fair here. A 6 minute cooldown is atrocious, too. I use it maybe twice a dungeon if I'm lucky.

And inspire courage needs better scaling. This all being considered, I don't consider fatesinger a weak destiny for bards (but probably pretty pathetic for everyone else). My main has used it religiously thru two lives, and I'm not sure I'd be happy without it. Maybe it's the way I play or what not, but it feels fun when I'm using it.

The benefits of the destiny easily lie in Sirens, Dirge, Chains, and Reign. Outside these 4, I'd probably run Magister or Draconic most of the time. However those 4 abilities synergize well with my SS, and as far as group "support" enable better overall CC and generally a higher kill count without having to waste an ounce of SP. Dirge, frankly, makes the fatesinger ED useful all around (except when it heals undead or shadows... >.< )

AzB
10-29-2013, 12:31 AM
* make the tier 5 'Turn the tide' functional on all enemies and half the cooldown.



Amen. How many other destinies have tier 5 powers that are similar to Turn the Tide, but work on all enemies and don't have the long cooldown?

The first time I used Turn the Tide, I thought it was freaking awesome. Then the reality of it hit. It's really only useful for those times when you get mobbed by trash and can't run away, jump out, or otherwise need to mow them down. With a 6 minute cool down, that means you're lucky to use it once per quest because so many quests can be done in 10 mins or so. So if you use it a couple mins into a dungeon, you're done before the cooldown is up. Even on really long quests that take 30-40 mins, you're saving it for emergencies, and it likely only gets used once or twice.

The reality is that it's not that useful.

Make it work on red names. That part is a no brainer. I'd say the cooldown should be more like 20-40 seconds personally. 3 minutes is still way too long. But 6 mins is just useless.

Steevye
10-29-2013, 02:05 AM
Amen. How many other destinies have tier 5 powers that are similar to Turn the Tide, but work on all enemies and don't have the long cooldown?

The first time I used Turn the Tide, I thought it was freaking awesome. Then the reality of it hit. It's really only useful for those times when you get mobbed by trash and can't run away, jump out, or otherwise need to mow them down. With a 6 minute cool down, that means you're lucky to use it once per quest because so many quests can be done in 10 mins or so. So if you use it a couple mins into a dungeon, you're done before the cooldown is up. Even on really long quests that take 30-40 mins, you're saving it for emergencies, and it likely only gets used once or twice.

The reality is that it's not that useful.

Make it work on red names. That part is a no brainer. I'd say the cooldown should be more like 20-40 seconds personally. 3 minutes is still way too long. But 6 mins is just useless.

I could see keeping it at 3 minute cooldowns because you don't need to build up for it (50 stacks for the monk ED, 10 vorps for FotW, etc). Instead you merely expend a song, which if you've got that much stacked in your favor you've got about 50 by cap (meaning I could just spam Tide Turns endlessly with a 20 sec cooldown).

I'm all fine with it being 3 minutes and workable on bosses. I'd rather it be usable on red/purps than be 20-30 second cooldowns, personally.

kryscendo
10-30-2013, 08:14 PM
Fascinate Undead is still broken and was never fixed!

Can anyone confirm that it is already working? Am I the only one that it isn't working for?


Music of the Dead/Fascinate is working. Song of Heroism is NOT working properly ... it's supposed to buff the whole party, not just one person.

voodoogroves
10-30-2013, 08:33 PM
Music of the Dead/Fascinate is working. Song of Heroism is NOT working properly ... it's supposed to buff the whole party, not just one person.

It doesn't work consistently. My guess is that there are some undead sub-types or like that have something that blocks it. Check different quests.

Steevye
10-30-2013, 08:34 PM
Music of the Dead/Fascinate is working. Song of Heroism is NOT working properly ... it's supposed to buff the whole party, not just one person.

From what I've seen, fascinate doesn't work as intended...it lasts only 30 seconds on undead/constructs. The Fatesinger vermin enhancement doesn't work at all, so I never take it. Half the time in epic content it's not working on undead, and since there's an apparent shortage of constructs outside of Haywire's Foundry, I haven't had anything else to test it on, but I'm getting "immune" when launching the song on them too. I'm not sure why it seems to work for some and not work for others, but it's really irritating considering it's the core freakin enhancements...it's one thing if it's optional, but it's entirely different if it's not. 3 patches after u19 and nothing has been done to rectify this whatsoever.

A_Sheep2
10-30-2013, 10:01 PM
I have to agree that divine might is not needed. What is needed for those who think divine might is very useful is a re-build. A melee bard should typically not have much focus on charisma. It would be typical for a melee warchanter to max out strength, so in that sense, you are roughly on par with other classes.

If you max str and only put let's say 12 cha at creation, then you are looking at what, 22 or 24 cha at end-game for most people with tomes/items? That's +6 or +7 str (and costs at least one equipment slot). That in itself is not enough to be worth splashing another class, but I guess I can see how a bard version of divine might could be a small bonus for us.

Combining the songs/reducing cast time would be great. The capstone and the 18 warchanter abilities definitely need a buff. To-hit usually isn't our problem so victory song doesn't seem attractive. Maybe it could grant either +10% offhand chance or +10% glancing blow chance or something.

AzB
10-31-2013, 01:05 AM
I have to agree that divine might is not needed. What is needed for those who think divine might is very useful is a re-build. A melee bard should typically not have much focus on charisma. It would be typical for a melee warchanter to max out strength, so in that sense, you are roughly on par with other classes.

If you max str and only put let's say 12 cha at creation, then you are looking at what, 22 or 24 cha at end-game for most people with tomes/items? That's +6 or +7 str (and costs at least one equipment slot). That in itself is not enough to be worth splashing another class, but I guess I can see how a bard version of divine might could be a small bonus for us.



I was reading the lamm forums about the eldritch knight class, and it's pretty interesting that one of the ideas that came up was cha/int to hit and damage for this hybrid casting/melee class. I thought of this thread.

Not getting why people want bards to be neutered. I understand some folks prefer to play it as a support class, but this changes *nothing* for that playstyle while allowing those desiring a more active character get a bit of a boost. How can that possibly be a bad thing? It's not like Warchanter is OP, or even particularly effective. Add this to the WC tree and give 'em a bone. Why not?

I guess people are happy with their bards and don't want anything to change. I guess the real issue here is that I'm playing the wrong class. It's just that I remember my PnP days and my bard could fend for himself. I miss that when I play a bard in DDO.

era42
10-31-2013, 04:27 AM
Bard currently is in pretty damn sad state.

I used to have a caster-bard. While a working dancing ball was nice, he really was a healer with some buff-songs. Still pretty fun to play, even though nobody believed he could actually heal. But, he was good at it, until they changed how bard healing works in relation to others, and the healing was neutered.

He never could do damage. Not at all. No, great shout is not a dps spell, and that's all they got. I LR:d him to a ranged toon, and he's even worse than before. I'm ok with him not being as good as any other class, but earlier the bards were fun to play. Song of capering (previously: instant, now: full singing time), workable heals (previously there, now: just singletarget heal for pures), inspire courage (used to be a big bonus, now it's a tiny bonus with stacking issues).

Now, it's just bad. Inspire courage adds a tiny bonus, and doesn't stack fully. Also, every single time you edit your destiny, inspire courage vanishes from your hotbar. And it's bad enough, that you don't really care enough to drag it back for the 1000th time. New songs are added, meaning you will spend 1 minute out of every 5 singing songs, if you want to keep them up. Seriously, buffing is painful.

Finally, the main reason I built the toon: haggle. Bards don't even get that anymore. No more enhancement for +haggle. Divine sphere for +haggle feat. And even the fatesinger epic moment, Turn of the Tide, which gives +4 cha for 20 seconds (that's +2 haggle, only place I'd use that), but it blocks everything for 10 seconds. After activating the Turn the Tide, for half the duration you can't activate skillboost, can't talk to shopkeepers, can't cast spells. Horrible horrible.

Previously I would never consider soloing with my bard, but in a party it felt like I was contributing, even if nobody noticed how much smoother things went with him doing the charms/fascinates/heals. Now I'm just too embarassed to take him out. At the moment I feel the only viable bard is a 8bard/9melee/3rogue split for a variation of a melee past life. There's just no point taking more bard after you get haste+displacement. And even then, it would be better with wizard.

voodoogroves
10-31-2013, 06:42 AM
I was reading the lamm forums about the eldritch knight class, and it's pretty interesting that one of the ideas that came up was cha/int to hit and damage for this hybrid casting/melee class. I thought of this thread.

Not getting why people want bards to be neutered. I understand some folks prefer to play it as a support class, but this changes *nothing* for that playstyle while allowing those desiring a more active character get a bit of a boost. How can that possibly be a bad thing? It's not like Warchanter is OP, or even particularly effective. Add this to the WC tree and give 'em a bone. Why not?

I guess people are happy with their bards and don't want anything to change. I guess the real issue here is that I'm playing the wrong class. It's just that I remember my PnP days and my bard could fend for himself. I miss that when I play a bard in DDO.

I'm not against giving them a bone at all - I just would like it to feel more bardy. I don't want them to get the same thing War Priests, EKs, etc. get. It can do similar stuff, but I want it to be bardy.

Make Song of Victory better. It grants full BAB. Make it better. Either take it out of the L18 slot (swap it w/ one of the WC T5s maybe) and/or increase the duration.

Make Skaldic Rage scale. Maybe put a scaling bump in at the L18 spot we just freed up.

Give the WC a better freezing hit - that DC is horrendous. Make it scale.

Add in one more DPS boost for them - something they can burst with, as needed. Hell, give them freaking Inflame (after you fix it) - action boost bonus to damage from that stacks better than the gd bard capstone (which doesn't stack w/ deadly). SOMETHING to fix or replace the capstone.

Kinda irritating that (when it works) the War Priest has an ability that boosts party wide DPS better than the WC capstone.

Steevye
10-31-2013, 06:53 AM
Kinda irritating that (when it works) the War Priest has an ability that boosts party wide DPS better than the WC capstone.

This is the sad state of bards as I see it, currently in game. There are too many other classes that just plain buff parties better than what once was the primary buff bot in game. Deadly > Inspire courage, etc....it shouldn't be that way, and bards shouldn't feel less bardy (as you said). I want my bard to feel like a bard again, not like a half baked fighter with some small cleric splashed that plays a lute.

I'd like to see the grouped songs, or the ability to not have to put the damn instrument away every single time a song is launched. Being able to streamline them into a medley would make the process a lot less painful, whatever way they choose to do it.

JOTMON
10-31-2013, 07:50 AM
Compilations - would make bards a lot less tedious doing one song after another for 5+ minutes during the buffing stages..

I would have liked to have seen bard damaging songs give a 10% increase to damage with enhancements to improve this..
its an inspiration song so it should inspire the person affected to do more, the % method makes the song usefull throughout the players career, not just in the early stages.
What melee would turn down 10%+ increase in damage vs +6 to damage... just saying...

kryscendo
10-31-2013, 06:57 PM
I like playing mostly support roles. I can kill stuff on my own, but melee is totally not my thing. I'm also not very DDO-smart, but I get by and have fun :)

I've played with many different bard builds with splashes, and I admire them for what they can do ... but mostly, I admire the players for creating toons they obviously love.

I'm not very happy about the state of bards right now. I would like to see one song for inspire courage/greatness/heroism etc. I'd like to be able to pick which buffs I want to include in one song ... many players like inspire recklessness ... but some really don't. It also seems like bards should get more party-buffs ...

But honestly, I'd be really happy if DDO could just fix the broken stuff.

LASmog
10-31-2013, 07:33 PM
I have to agree that divine might is not needed. What is needed for those who think divine might is very useful is a re-build. A melee bard should typically not have much focus on charisma. It would be typical for a melee warchanter to max out strength, so in that sense, you are roughly on par with other classes.

If you max str and only put let's say 12 cha at creation, then you are looking at what, 22 or 24 cha at end-game for most people with tomes/items? That's +6 or +7 str (and costs at least one equipment slot). That in itself is not enough to be worth splashing another class, but I guess I can see how a bard version of divine might could be a small bonus for us.

I am not trying to be disparaging of your assessment, but Divine Might build is worth more in every sense of stat measurement though.

Assuming you are putting strength and charisma gear on in equal measure, you would either have strength at 36 and charisma at 24 or charisma at 36 and strength at 24. The simple breakdown example:



Strength Based

Charisma Based


Str
Cha

Str
Cha


16
12
Base
12
16


7
0
Level-up
0
7


6
6
Item enhancement
6
6


1
1
Item insightful
1
1


0
0
Item exceptional
0
0


2
1
Class enhancment
1
2


2
2
Tome
2
2


2
2
Ship
2
2


36
24
Totals
24
36



But if you take the charisma path and activate Divine Might you have 37 str, 36 cha. Essentially you can spend 15 SP every couple of minutes to run around with more strength and have higher mana, DCs, skills, etc. than if you focused on strength. It also makes FoP almost a no-brainer, except for the feat starvation.

As for the other points in this thread, I agree it would be nice to tweak the class a bit in some places but right now I would be happy if they would just fix all the broken stuff first... and there is a lot.

P.S. Sorry about the really wide table, but I can't seem to make the formatting work right on the forum.

voodoogroves
10-31-2013, 09:06 PM
STUFF

I still don't think Divine Might is the right path. Bards (WC) already have an option w/ Skaldic Rage. They should just freaking scale that - adding at 18 and 20 (to also make the late abilities / capstone stronger).

LASmog
11-01-2013, 12:45 AM
I still don't think Divine Might is the right path. Bards (WC) already have an option w/ Skaldic Rage. They should just freaking scale that - adding at 18 and 20 (to also make the late abilities / capstone stronger).

*Massive post incoming*

I should clarify my posting: It was made in the context of "not needed". From a functional stand point, it is the better path for a melee bard and I could argue that it is needed currently. Is it the right path? Heck no, bards should not have to dip into another class to be viable as a melee build. And honestly even with the strength it is still a mediocre build, but I am fine with that as I do not see the bard class as a melee "powerhouse" class and do not think it should be. With the buffs, songs and heals I think that would be overpowered.

I realized after the fact this is arguing a single point and not in the same vein as the point of this thread, and I apologize for that, so I will give my own suggestions:

1. Fixes
Both trees need some tweaks, but even if they don't get updated the spellsinger tree needs to be fixed. Currently there are at least 4 broken abilities in the SS tree, but those chain to other abilities either directly or indirectly.

Magical/Musical studies - The magical part works (you get SP) but the musical does not (no extra songs). Because the musical part does not work, the tier 5 sister to this ability (Advanced Musical Training) does not warrant taking and may not work. On top of this there is a bug during point assignment that may lock out the third level, which also locks out the third level of the tier 5 sister version.

Music of X - They do not seem to work reliably, if at all, with the exception of Construct working most of the time in certain adventures. If you are expecting to use Haunting Melody this bug means it does not work on certain enemies as well.

Some of the others can be intermittent and not applying the buffs as intended, although more testing is needed.

2. Core refinement
I agree with many of the comments about the core abilities being either too bland or out of place.

Music of the X - Mash Sewers and Contructs together. Both are rarely used/needed and very specialized, with most of their use in the first 10 levels. That will give you room for a different SS core ability around the level 12-16 area, such as...

Anthem - I think 18 is a little too far out. It isn't horrible, but you can get anthem items well before that. Not sure why bards should be waiting quite that long for it. Moving it to 16 would line it up better and wouldn't leave bards starved for personal song recovery for so long. That would make room for...

Maetro of Life and Death - So if we move Anthem back a couple of levels, we could add the Heal/Wail of the Banshee back at 18 and put it in a useful spot. At 20 they aren't going to be much of an addition since bards are already effectively using Heal scrolls by then and the usefulness of Wail is just tapering off as you are getting into epic content. Keep the 20% song duration with this and it is a somewhat useful core ability to take. Then you can add...

<Insert new capstone name here> - +2 charisma, +10-20% song duration (not too big, but at least noticeable), and +30-50% singing haste. You now don't have to spend quite so much time to do your buffs, when things go south in an adventure you can get a Fascinate out sooner, and it mostly fixes singing speed issue for Song of Capering. You are still limited by the cool down timer though. And really, at this point you have spent 41 points in this tree focusing your bard as a spellsinger so your bard should be better at spitting out the verses than others.

Skaldic Rage - Should get a boost similar to, "+4 with +1 for every X bard levels past X" with some balancing of the levels for tuning. I am thinking 1 every 3 past 3.

Fighting Spirit - Should add personal boost to the song for the bard, like a +1-2 music bonus to damage

Fighting Spirit 2 - Same as before, but adding and increasing the bonus to +2-3 (for a total of ~+3-5)

Victory Song - 20 seconds? Really? A pure bard at the top is only 5 BAB behind, so you only gain 5 BAB at best from this high tier song (+5 to-hit, tiny attack speed boost). At level 18 that is a small boost, at a VERY short duration, using a song charge that is better used somewhere else.

Warmaster - I think they have a good start, but again a personal bonus (another +3-4 for a total of ~+6-9) and increase the duration of the Inspire Heroics effect. This is a level 20 ability, at that range of content the bonus is weak and should not be considered over powered.

3. Facinate/Enthrall
Right now I see little reason to take Enthrall except as a stepping stone to Sustaining Song (small healing, but to everyone) and Song of Capering (too slow to sing). One of those reasons is that none of the CC boosters work on Enthrall, such as Haunting Melody, Sharp Note or any of the Music of the X core abilities. On top of this Suggestion song does not work on Enthralled enemies. The only reason to use Enthrall is to allow the controlled NPCs to take a hit or two before it breaks.

4. Inspire Courage/Greatness/Heroics
All buff songs should be typed as Bardic Music bonus, or some other type of unique stacking bonus. Right now there are too many other sources that are of the same bonus types that are equal (or even greater) than the songs and gives people less reason to be thrilled to have bard buffs. Heck, even our songs overlap the bonuses and don't fully stack in some cases (IC and IH morale bonuses to saves). I don't know if the song stacking is a bug, but if intended then at least make them all Bardic Music bonus so they aren't also competing with spells, clickies, random gen gear, etc. Right now many people have random gen loot with "Deadly" and "Accuracy" that is better than bard songs. If you are worried about "hit" and "damage" inflation, then tweak them but make them useful.

Overall bards bring something unique to the table with their song/spell combination, but it feels like the class is limping in some areas and not useful in others.

*You have been slain my Massive text*

whereispowderedsilve
11-01-2013, 12:54 AM
More devotion in the WC tree please! That is all for now! Or have perform add to sonic & positive spell power like the old song magic bard enhancements did.

GO THE BARDS! FIX THEM UP! ><! :P! :D! :)! Cheers! Keep the input/feedback coming guys! Hopefully a dev or management will notice!

If you have twitter(I do not): https://twitter.com/producerglin DM or tweet glin! >< Let's get our voices heard! Can't keep a good bard down or some such! LOLZ!

Sigh>< Asking nicely/politely/sincerely!

A_Sheep2
11-01-2013, 07:05 AM
I am not trying to be disparaging of your assessment, but Divine Might build is worth more in every sense of stat measurement though.


You make a good point. I hadn't put it together quite like that. You still end up with a bit more str investing in str (and then activating divine might for +7), but I see that it is a more narrow gap than I had thought.

Darkvx
11-06-2013, 09:32 PM
I think fixing the current enhancements would go a long way.

A list of bard issues
+% to song duration not working or adding up
Musical Studies (teir1) not working
Palm maters immune to Spell Song Trance
Music of the Dead/maker not working immune or making insane saves
Fascinate maybe broken CR 17 saving against 94+d20
Frolic not adding FOM and/or not counting as a song so it can be dispelled

For me bards are missing the jack of all trades fell. To me that is what a bard is a bit of everything and a master of a few.

I know someone said something about a pure caster bard no having good DCs compared to a wizard, I find mine on par or better. I’m only level 22(took a long break from the game), My disco ball DC is 44 buffed with not really great gear ( no +2 exceptional) just got a +8 chr item. My wail is a 40 oe a 39.


With all that being said what I like to see is a new Tree called "jack of all Trades" I like to see enhancements that use perform in place of other skills like versatile performance add in different performance animations(Flute, war drum, dance) in pathfinder or like below

Core abilities
Choose one of the 5 fields of mastery
"Mechanic" gain Trap finding +1 to bluff for each core ability
"Combat focus" ***
"Healer"***
"Master bard"***
"Arcane master"***

Tier 1
"Mechanic" Like Use 1/5,1/3,1/2 preform skill in place of pick locks(doesn’t stack with skill)
"Combat focus" 1,2,3 Level,s of bard count as levels of fighter for BAB
"Healer" add 1/5,1/3,1/2 perform skill to heal skill
"Master bard" +2/4/6 to perform
"Arcane master"

Tier 2
"Mechanic" Like Use 1/5,1/3,1/2 perform skill in place of disable device(doesn’t stack with skill)
"Combat focus" 1,2,3 Level,s of bard count as levels of fighter for BAB third rank adds one Fighter feat of your choose.
"Healer" +5/10/15 positive spell power rank 3 gives Empower healing

Steevye
11-07-2013, 07:21 AM
I think fixing the current enhancements would go a long way.

A list of bard issues
+% to song duration not working or adding up
Musical Studies (teir1) not working
Palm maters immune to Spell Song Trance
Music of the Dead/maker not working immune or making insane saves
Fascinate maybe broken CR 17 saving against 94+d20
Frolic not adding FOM and/or not counting as a song so it can be dispelled

For me bards are missing the jack of all trades fell. To me that is what a bard is a bit of everything and a master of a few.

I know someone said something about a pure caster bard no having good DCs compared to a wizard, I find mine on par or better. I’m only level 22(took a long break from the game), My disco ball DC is 44 buffed with not really great gear ( no +2 exceptional) just got a +8 chr item. My wail is a 40 oe a 39.


With all that being said what I like to see is a new Tree called "jack of all Trades" I like to see enhancements that use perform in place of other skills like versatile performance add in different performance animations(Flute, war drum, dance) in pathfinder or like below

Core abilities
Choose one of the 5 fields of mastery
"Mechanic" gain Trap finding +1 to bluff for each core ability
"Combat focus" ***
"Healer"***
"Master bard"***
"Arcane master"***

Tier 1
"Mechanic" Like Use 1/5,1/3,1/2 preform skill in place of pick locks(doesn’t stack with skill)
"Combat focus" 1,2,3 Level,s of bard count as levels of fighter for BAB
"Healer" add 1/5,1/3,1/2 perform skill to heal skill
"Master bard" +2/4/6 to perform
"Arcane master"

Tier 2
"Mechanic" Like Use 1/5,1/3,1/2 perform skill in place of disable device(doesn’t stack with skill)
"Combat focus" 1,2,3 Level,s of bard count as levels of fighter for BAB third rank adds one Fighter feat of your choose.
"Healer" +5/10/15 positive spell power rank 3 gives Empower healing

Not to rain on your parade here, but those DCs are wicked low for epic content. Mine are a good 10 pts below a wizzy's, which tend to reach the mid-60s these days (mine are at 56 atm, maximum I can fathom accomplishing realistically is a 58...maybe a 59). So to say a bard's are as good as a wizard just isn't true. Magister offers some fun little additions to the enchantment spell line too, whereas Fatesinger just doesn't do anything to help cast spells anymore. Sonic power? Useless...

Jack of all trades is fine in theory and on paper, but in reality there just isn't a need for a half baked anything in this game. With enemies being so brutally OP in EE compared to any other difficulty, a less skilled caster than the ideal caster is worthless and will be passed over every single time. PnP it works fine, but in DDO? It just doesn't.

Your list is well compiled though, and I've been wondering if the devs even pay attention to this class anymore. It's like they said "hey, bards suck right? Let's make them suck a little less by not actually changing anything but give them a slightly improved capstone and maybe they'll forget we screwed them for a few months."

On the suggested changes....I can't approve of them all. Combat isn't meant to be a bards absolute forte, and BAB isn't something I'd advocate jacking up permanently. I'd say improve their capstone (WC) so it could last longer, maybe like a heroic "Tide Turns" from fatesinger but a little longer. Something that fits with the feel of the class...a full BAB doesn't. A bard has and always will be a minstrel/entertainer first, warrior second. If it's the other way around, just roll a fighter. I'd be more game for this type of bard focusing entirely on combat buffs, however, and using songs just like they'd use a weapon (similarly to where Fatesinger attempted to go, but did so in a weak manner...as much as I like the ED).

In Pathfinder, a bard can take 20 on any skill, therefore I'd be ok with the mechanic idea. Prereq though is investing points into DD and OL.

I wouldn't want to see healer/arcane separated. Make it "caster". They're already too limited in both to only specialize in one.

Otherwise, not bad suggestions, but let's whine enough to get the currently horrendous state of the class repaired first, shall we?

Silken-Akira
11-07-2013, 08:52 AM
whine. because I want to TR in a bard some time soon.

BoBoDaClown
11-07-2013, 11:39 AM
Not to rain on your parade here, but those DCs are wicked low for epic content. Mine are a good 10 pts below a wizzy's, which tend to reach the mid-60s these days (mine are at 56 atm, maximum I can fathom accomplishing realistically is a 58...maybe a 59). So to say a bard's are as good as a wizard just isn't true. Magister offers some fun little additions to the enchantment spell line too, whereas Fatesinger just doesn't do anything to help cast spells anymore. Sonic power? Useless...



Not sure about this. I could be missing something obvious, because I haven't been playing at cap for awhile, but:

every 2 cha/int = 1DC for their respective classes
BARD
Maestro of Life and Death = 1DC
Marigold = 1DC
Four Charisma=2DC
Prodigy=2DC
Plus you can always give yourself a +1DC from spellsong, although most people will have the boat, which doesn't stack

TOTAL= +6

WIZARD for necro
Lich=2DC
Master of Death=1DC
Four Intelligence=2DC
Necro Focus=1DC
Primary Spell Focus=1DC
Wizards Higher Spell Levels=+3DC

TOTAL=+10 DC for necro. I think enchantment or evocation would work out around the same.

So, they are probably 4DC higher than us, which I think is too much. I think we should have DCs equally good in our one useful school, or even better as some of our spells are single target (like Hold Monster).

But 10DC over I think is an exaggeration. Unless I missed something?

supott
11-07-2013, 12:36 PM
i think maybe if bards got an inocorporeal bypass enhancement they could be improved, perhaps if that same enhancement also deals 1-6 damage to undead

Darkvx
11-07-2013, 03:56 PM
Jack of all trades is fine in theory and on paper, but in reality there just isn't a need for a half baked anything in this game. With enemies being so brutally OP in EE compared to any other difficulty, a less skilled caster than the ideal caster is worthless and will be passed over every single time. PnP it works fine, but in DDO? It just doesn't.

Not everyone focuses on end game or min/maxing. As for half baked isnt that what a bard is now? Can't get the DCs of a Wiz/Sorc, Match the DPS of well anyone, Can't heal as well as a cleric or FVS, Not even as versital as a druid. Bards are already a jack of all trades, We buff, and play second fiddle to healers,CC and dps.


What could they do to make bards stand out or be uniqe? We should be CC but our songs take to long to take care of trash. By the time Fascinate is done they are dead and it has no effect on bosses.


i think maybe if bards got an inocorporeal bypass enhancement they could be improved, perhaps if that same enhancement also deals 1-6 damage to undead


Like Steevy said bards arnt dps. Now a song or group of songs that did something on those lines for the party would be nice. Artificers and thier buffs really put the nail in the coffen. As a melee who wouldnt want Deadly Weapons, Align Weapons or Elemental Weapons over a + 3-7 damage. Plus a good arty could out dps a great bard comes with a pet that can tank, heal himself/pet and other constucts better then a bard.

Steevye
11-07-2013, 05:54 PM
Not sure about this. I could be missing something obvious, because I haven't been playing at cap for awhile, but:

every 2 cha/int = 1DC for their respective classes
BARD
Maestro of Life and Death = 1DC
Marigold = 1DC
Four Charisma=2DC
Prodigy=2DC
Plus you can always give yourself a +1DC from spellsong, although most people will have the boat, which doesn't stack

TOTAL= +6

WIZARD for necro
Lich=2DC
Master of Death=1DC
Four Intelligence=2DC
Necro Focus=1DC
Primary Spell Focus=1DC
Wizards Higher Spell Levels=+3DC

TOTAL=+10 DC for necro. I think enchantment or evocation would work out around the same.

So, they are probably 4DC higher than us, which I think is too much. I think we should have DCs equally good in our one useful school, or even better as some of our spells are single target (like Hold Monster).

But 10DC over I think is an exaggeration. Unless I missed something?

I think it comes down to how a wiz vs. bard is built...it seems quite uncommon for a bard to max out charisma anymore, when a wizard really (based on what I've seen) gets most or all its points dumped into int/con. Wizards, though, get a lot more spell dps...a bard only (now) has 1 spell that can kill, with a 1 minute cooldown and in a school that isn't a focus of the class.

I am running my numbers off the min/maxers, that has something to do with it, but it's the best rate of comparison for potential ability. Even if I bard went the casting route, he'd have no ability to kill anything in reasonable time before level 20, so a maxed charisma and item slots geared for casting doesn't help someone solo, much less kill anything.

Steevye
11-07-2013, 05:58 PM
Not everyone focuses on end game or min/maxing. As for half baked isnt that what a bard is now? Can't get the DCs of a Wiz/Sorc, Match the DPS of well anyone, Can't heal as well as a cleric or FVS, Not even as versital as a druid. Bards are already a jack of all trades, We buff, and play second fiddle to healers,CC and dps.


What could they do to make bards stand out or be uniqe? We should be CC but our songs take to long to take care of trash. By the time Fascinate is done they are dead and it has no effect on bosses.




Like Steevy said bards arnt dps. Now a song or group of songs that did something on those lines for the party would be nice. Artificers and thier buffs really put the nail in the coffen. As a melee who wouldnt want Deadly Weapons, Align Weapons or Elemental Weapons over a + 3-7 damage. Plus a good arty could out dps a great bard comes with a pet that can tank, heal himself/pet and other constucts better then a bard.

1: faster song execution. Having to put away the lute every damn song is just bad mechanics. No logical bard would ever put the lute away as long as he's using it.

2: Like you said, make the songs scale usefully again. +10/20/30% dmg instead of +1/2/3 for inspire courage. No more of this "bards look like they kinda help, but no one really notices."

And please give us mass holds. There is no reason we should get wail instead of mass holds...

BoBoDaClown
11-08-2013, 10:36 AM
I think it comes down to how a wiz vs. bard is built...it seems quite uncommon for a bard to max out charisma anymore, when a wizard really (based on what I've seen) gets most or all its points dumped into int/con. Wizards, though, get a lot more spell dps...a bard only (now) has 1 spell that can kill, with a 1 minute cooldown and in a school that isn't a focus of the class.

I am running my numbers off the min/maxers, that has something to do with it, but it's the best rate of comparison for potential ability. Even if I bard went the casting route, he'd have no ability to kill anything in reasonable time before level 20, so a maxed charisma and item slots geared for casting doesn't help someone solo, much less kill anything.

I run my bard as a caster, and was perfectly happy with her performance in all content (EE etc) up to the cap of 25. I haven't been playing endgame since then, so take that into account.

My bard either CCed or Healed. If I didn't think I would be dong either of those, I would take another character.

I agree with you that bards may be lacking, and that a caster dps option would be nice etc, I was just pointing to the DC, where I also think we are lacking, just not to the degree you pointed out.

When I level my healer/CCer again (she's on a bit of a TR train atm) I will level as a dps bard and LR into my final build (since CC and often party healing are often not much use through heroic).

Steevye
11-08-2013, 11:33 AM
I run my bard as a caster, and was perfectly happy with her performance in all content (EE etc) up to the cap of 25. I haven't been playing endgame since then, so take that into account.

My bard either CCed or Healed. If I didn't think I would be dong either of those, I would take another character.

I agree with you that bards may be lacking, and that a caster dps option would be nice etc, I was just pointing to the DC, where I also think we are lacking, just not to the degree you pointed out.

When I level my healer/CCer again (she's on a bit of a TR train atm) I will level as a dps bard and LR into my final build (since CC and often party healing are often not much use through heroic).

I'm not sure if things changed since 25 or not really. I hadn't spent a lot of time on my bard in epic content before I took a break from the game between u17 and u19, and it does seem like things were augmented. I just don't seem to have the casting prowess a wiz has, even if they're only 4 ahead. Some of that I'm sure is Magister vs. Fatesinger, though. I won't lie, casting ability throughout heroic was perfectly acceptable and my CC was on par with most others'. I do think though, in current game, that an under 50 DC probably isn't going to land often in EE. My experience in the difficulty is severely limited, however.

I found that bard healing was always easy for the most part. Don a potency or devotion item and run with it. What I'd like to see more of though is still combat oriented songs, basically SLAs that don't take 10 seconds to launch. Maybe something like Siren's Song, which is pretty quick and at tier 3 cools down in 40 seconds (dirge is a longer playtime, but a DOT that lasts a minute and affects the mob in the vicinity of hearing it? I really like this one myself). Use perform as usual for DCs relating to songs, and also give us some more enhancement options for gaining more songs. I had about 27(?) by lvl 20, and if they were anything more than buffs + fascinate, I'd need a good 5 more to make it fun to use them more freely.

Either way bards still are behind everything except maybe paladins, who didn't get much love post u19 either.

Steevye
11-08-2013, 11:36 AM
Not sure about this. I could be missing something obvious, because I haven't been playing at cap for awhile, but:

every 2 cha/int = 1DC for their respective classes
BARD
Maestro of Life and Death = 1DC
Marigold = 1DC
Four Charisma=2DC
Prodigy=2DC
Plus you can always give yourself a +1DC from spellsong, although most people will have the boat, which doesn't stack

TOTAL= +6


I had to check my drow bard, but since she's drow she also gets another +2 and a +1 from the PL feat, not to mention SF does actually put heroic bards in decent vicinity of a wizzy, so I was a bit off :)

Rull
11-22-2013, 04:46 AM
Ah bards. I used to have a bard as my main. Changed it after the enhancement update to a 16/3/1, same as maddmatt's. But I gave up on him and bards in general.

As a 16 bard, it used to be you got 80 Devotion, spellsong vigor, arcane might, and +6 to damage.
Now, with about the same investment in AP, you get 12 Devotion, just arcane might, and +5 to damage. (tier3 in spellsinger, tier5 in warchanter). And really no good way to improve on these areas, nor much to make up for these losses.

That setback is enormous. It's not just that bard enhancements didn't get as much better as other class enhancements, they got downright worse. The only reason that a 16/x/x bard now is more effective than a 16/x/x bard before is because the enhancements in the non-bard classes that you splash got so much better.



WHY must EVERY class be combat capable? Bards were always support characters with a splash of everything. Making every single class as combat capable as the next just starts making every class ....more of the same?

And what is wrong with singing and throwing out the occassonal heal?

I'd be content with being a support character, in fact it was my pull into bard in the first place. The problem is they just don't support very much anymore.
The song got it's damage REDUCED while at the same time damage has been increased across the board, making it's relative portion almost ignorable.
The healing got reduced even worse. No devotion enhancements. Even a ranger heals better than a bard.

It looks to me like they thought:

The +3 damage enhancement. in the new system this should go somewhere in warchanter tree, of course. Makes sense, all class abilities got categorized under their most appropriate trees.
The +2 extra damage from the warchanter (I) prestige class should in the new system be spread over the core abilites of warchanter. Makes sense. Many prestige classes got converted to core abilities.

... and then the programmer mixed up the memos.


So the fix to this is easy. put a +3 damage enhancement in the tree, AND spread +3 damage over the warchanter core abilities.
A spellsinger dipping into warchanter should get +5/+6 on his damage, dipping deeply should be about +7, and a full 20 warchanter should certainly get +9.
+1 on core3, core12 and core20 IN ADDITION to +1/+1/+1 on tier2/tier3/tier4 would accomplish this (but +1/+2/+3 on tier2 would be fine as well. You really don't need to be afraid of 18X/2bard builds dominating the servers with their +4 to damage songs.

And of course bring back devotion. Bards have always been supportive through their heals, so don't put them behind even rangers in that department.

The third problem with bards is much more subtle. The power level in both trees is just low.
-While every tree has it's (sometimes prerequisite) filler, bards overdo it. Both howl of the north and Inspire Recklessness need such a load of completely useless but mandatory abilities. 9 AP wasted just to be able to get Recklessness. (+3 tohit that doesn't stack with GH, and DR6 that doesn't stack with the DR10/DR15 people are wearing is quite obsolete). And 4 AP straight down the drain for Howl... Yet somehow both need a drawback as well.
-Run the numbers on Northwind. for 2/4/6 AP (3/6/9 if you count the prereq) I expect 1d6/1d8/1d10 cold damage average per hit (in line with the 1d4/1d6/1d8 poison damage from assassin, since poison is better than cold and it has no prereq nor needs skadic rage)... So 20d6/20d8/20d10 on every vorpal.... not 2d8/4d8/6d8.
-The spellsinger core abilities makes me want to cry. Especially the lvl3. Put the song regeneration there instead.

A_Sheep2
11-27-2013, 06:34 PM
The song got it's damage REDUCED while at the same time damage has been increased across the board, making it's relative portion almost ignorable.
The healing got reduced even worse. No devotion enhancements. Even a ranger heals better than a bard.


Yeah, this is unfortunate.

kryscendo
11-27-2013, 09:13 PM
It doesn't work consistently. My guess is that there are some undead sub-types or like that have something that blocks it. Check different quests.

I've finally had the opportunity to try Music of the Dead at higher levels, and I stand corrected. It's pretty lame :(

Noctus
12-04-2013, 04:58 PM
While I would agree that Warchanter Bards do more DPS now than they did before, there are some problems. First of all is that everyone else's DPS has increased proportionally more, and the demands for DPS have increased as well.

It's like gaining a fifty-cent raise when inflation has increased so that everything is $10 more, and everyone else got a $5 raise. Or something like that.

In short, Bard's increased damage can't match the inflated damage needed.


This is exactly the problem with the current Warchanter. The group-DPS-buffing of warchanters has not only stagnated, but actually got LOWER since the cap was 16, while the DPS-output of all others has massively risen.