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Zachski
10-19-2013, 04:46 PM
No splashes, no multi-classing, nothing. Just want to go from Bard level 1 to Bard level 20 to Fatesinger.

I'm guessing this will mean I'll have to be a Spellsinger? In which case...

Can anyone provide any advice on a Spellsinger bard? Leveling, builds, soloing AND partying, and so forth?

I'd really love to be a Warchanter but from what I understand, it's severely underpowered right now.

How would a Spellsinger with some Warchanter work out?

supott
10-19-2013, 05:00 PM
i enjoyed my pure bard. Spellsinger all the way, Warchanter has a nice ability 'frozen fury'. +6 AC. Those are the only things that i really liked abt it. I use Frozen Fury all the time.

With the new enhancement pass, u free up some feats. I went human TWF and loved it. It's got synergy with Fatesinger (Turn of the tide & Reign), and some Warchanter abilities. Oathblades work for Lvl 20 (then u can switch out Improved Crit). I'd go balanced on the Stat distribution & Dump wis.

If you don't go TWF though, you'd have enough to get Maximize, maybe Empower, and could get Ruin & Hellball as Epic feats. A guildie i run with got those and says its a good compliment for Bard and alot of fun too.

Zachski
10-19-2013, 06:32 PM
I suppose it depends on if I go melee Spellsinger or caster Spellsinger. Hmm.

Replliw
10-19-2013, 08:25 PM
I suppose it depends on if I go melee Spellsinger or caster Spellsinger. Hmm.

Can't really give good advice about bards, since it has been quite a while since I played one. However, going with pure bard is a bit limiting yourself, as far as I can see it, unless you have something specific in mind (like all in CC specialist and you want every bonus to DC and spell pen).

If you do go with caster spellsinger, make sure you do have some melee killing power. Maybe it's just Power attack and Improved critical, but you will enjoy those when you run with some PuGs. I found it very depressing to depend on other people to kill things to get through a quest. Especially those people that you buff with everything sans Spawn screen and they are still doing only twice as good as the guy that went afk 2 quests ago.

EssenceofEvil
10-19-2013, 08:59 PM
My first bard and her first life as well was a spellsinger half elf with artificer dilly..worked out pretty well. The repeater really help me contribute some damage while I was singing away for the spellcasters.

Steevye
10-20-2013, 08:46 AM
I'd really love to be a Warchanter but from what I understand, it's severely underpowered right now.

How would a Spellsinger with some Warchanter work out?

My two cents, worth less than 2 cents...

I have 3 bards atm, though only one (my main) that I play excessively (hell, she's a lot of fun).

I always hated splashing bards, because I felt less bard like. This being more an opinion than an optimum option, because you really can only specialize in 1 or 2 areas as a pure bard, but prior to this epic stuff that wasn't really a problem (especially if you group a lot as I used to do).

I applaud pure bards because they're a pain to level after 14 or 15, and the grind from 18-20 is usually the most painful imho. That being said, it is unavoidable with a pure bard to splash both trees into the same toon. The question is where you want to focus. As I've seen it (before and after u19), WCs have always been at a disadvantage as a pure build. I TR'd my original character (a dwarf barb) into a WC hybrid because there's just no feasible way to excel at dps, hp, and get all the necessary feats to go with the build. Therefore, my WC dwarf has 2 rogue, 2 ftr.

My drow SS on the other hand has taken the best facets of the WC, tossed out the BS, and maximized the SS tree except for the few "gimpy" enhancements that are really just filler and a waste of AP. As a result she has limited DPS abilities (aka, about 80 base dmg non crit/no effects) with just PA and IC. I have always had her specced for casting and songs, with healing being her "raid" setting and all that, and prior to the bloat of EE content she was casting superbly in the epics. I still cannot find a way to make her viable as a second lifer for DC casting in that difficultly setting...even with DCs in the 48-50 range she's not doing what she was before, and that irritates me a little bit (I personally know little about DCs, but 50 seems admirable if not above average?).

Wall of words aside, play a pure bard, because they're really fun. I can't recommend TWF, though, due to lack of feats available (I tried it, with the Fatesinger ED capped). TWF just presented me with "well. I do hit often", but for significantly less dmg and I had to put 5 pts into dex just to get the first feat. THF without the feats allows for PA, IC, and then you can use the other feats as you wish to accentuate whatever abilities you want to, because it is a bard after all.

Either way, my pure bard has managed to solo EH material without so much as a tear or hiccup, and CC works like a demigod at that difficulty, so half of the time I'm not even fighting, I just let the trash do it for me.

P.S. Beware of enh tree bugs, extra songs don't work and half of the time the DC increases don't register, or maybe they're just not being displayed properly.

kryscendo
10-20-2013, 09:48 AM
No splashes, no multi-classing, nothing. Just want to go from Bard level 1 to Bard level 20 to Fatesinger.

I'm guessing this will mean I'll have to be a Spellsinger? In which case...

Can anyone provide any advice on a Spellsinger bard? Leveling, builds, soloing AND partying, and so forth?

I'd really love to be a Warchanter but from what I understand, it's severely underpowered right now.

How would a Spellsinger with some Warchanter work out?

I have a bunch of bards (maybe 12 or more) and 2 rangers. Bards fit my personality, my style of play, and my preferred prestige was virtuoso although I have a warchanter and now a bunch of spellsingers. Anyway, I love this class. I think that you have to figure out what makes YOU happy.

I really don't care if I can solo, and I don't care about DPS because, quite frankly, I don't like melee. I see my role in a party as the person who makes it easier for everyone else to kill stuff. Most of my bards use repeaters/bows that either paralyze, destruct, curse ... or somehow make the bad guys a bit easier to kill. I buff, haste, heal ... whatever is needed. I use enhancements from both spellsinger and warchanter trees ... mostly for buffing purposes.

That's what makes me happy. There are a lot of great suggestions here for bard builds ... ultimately, you have to choose your style of play.

With the newest updates, there are a lot of bugs. I can't play the way I used to, but I'm making do until stuff gets fixed. Bards are still fun :)

unbongwah
10-22-2013, 03:39 PM
My pure human bard is a CHA-based Spellsinger.

Heroic feats: Least Finding DM (1), TWF (1), Power Atk (3), Extend (swap for Quicken later) (6), ITWF (9), IC:Pierce (12), GTWF (15), Emp Heal (18)
Epic feats: Inspire Excellence (21), Maximize? (24), Epic DR or Epic Reflexes (27)
ED feats: PTWF & Lasting Inspiration (or Epic Pos Spellpower)

Skills: Concentration, UMD, Perform, and Heal (cross-class) are the must-haves; I also took Haggle & Diplomacy, IIRC.

Goals were: TWF melee DPS, strong healer & support toon, chest blesser. I use eElyd Edge and eRapier of Air as my primary weapons; would love to add Balizarde and/or Celestia to the mix, of course, but I don't raid much (haven't even flagged CitW on this toon). CC spells are mediocre at best; high CHA but no Spell Focus or Spell Pen investment. But the great thing about bards is, as long as we sing our songs and don't get wiped, no one cares what we do the rest of the time. :p

With the changes to Divine Might, would've loved to include a cleric or FvS splash; but I really wanted to stay pure for SS capstone.

Enhancements: at least 41 APs into SS for capstone and T5s; ~15-18 APs into human for DMs, dmg boost, action surge, heal amp; rest into WC (core thru Fighting Spirit and Obstinance for Pos Spellpower, I think).

goodspeed
10-23-2013, 01:25 AM
If your heading pure then casting is the way.

U'll be able to whip some good cc with the right gear and whatnot. Buff up people and make them all epicly shiny. Even be the healer. dmg wise.. mmm ok.

SSFWEl
10-23-2013, 01:46 AM
Sorry but I have to say this.
While pure might sound sexy, it's simply not a good idea anymore.

My son plays a 16/2/2 bard/fighter/rouge. spell singer.
He hits about 1050 HP self buffed, evasion, ~18 songs (iirc), uses THF Skybreaker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skybreaker,_Hand_of_the_Stormreaver) for excellent DPS - he prefers it over the cleaver and does not have SoS, very good in EE with high survivability, can tank bosses fairly well and he loves playing it. We duo or trio EE routinely either on my 12/6/2 moncher or my pre-19 pure FvS, and all this before he used his LR20, which if planned well can probably make him stronger, but he is so happy now, he sees no reason.

I have no idea how he splits his AP, but he has access to another 5 trees you don't get with pure.

Why lock yourself in?

just my $0.02

supott
10-23-2013, 05:47 AM
A 2 fighter 2 rogue split can give Overwhelming Crit, Haste Boost, Stunning Blow,

A pure can get Frozen Fury (6 second cooldown compared to Stunning Blow's 15),
less overall DPS but better CC, faster/better healing and Wail (Which can work pretty well), and the same high HP.

Personally I prefer TWF but I can't say I've compared the 2. I think the TWF does more DPS: From Fighter's Spiritual Bond to Reign, Bard Buffs/Songs, Warchanter Buffs. I think a Pure Bard would probably lead Kill-count wise considerably over Splashed because of Wail (Except EE) (If that is an indication of effectiveness), while Splashed might be better for Bosses. I do not know how strong a THF Bard in Dreadnought or other destinies so I cannot say for sure who is stronger in Epics.

I like the Fighter's Haste Boost, on top of Spiritual Bond, and that's one thing I miss from Pure Bard.
A 2 fighter 2 rogue for me lacks ranged CC and might encounter some problems soloing.

Silken-Akira
10-23-2013, 06:57 AM
A 2 fighter 2 rogue split can give Overwhelming Crit, Haste Boost, Stunning Blow,

A pure can get Frozen Fury (6 second cooldown compared to Stunning Blow's 15),
less overall DPS but better CC, faster/better healing and Wail (Which can work pretty well), and the same high HP.

Personally I prefer TWF but I can't say I've compared the 2. I think the TWF does more DPS: From Fighter's Spiritual Bond to Reign, Bard Buffs/Songs, Warchanter Buffs. I think a Pure Bard would probably lead Kill-count wise considerably over Splashed because of Wail (Except EE) (If that is an indication of effectiveness), while Splashed might be better for Bosses. I do not know how strong a THF Bard in Dreadnought or other destinies so I cannot say for sure who is stronger in Epics.

I like the Fighter's Haste Boost, on top of Spiritual Bond, and that's one thing I miss from Pure Bard.
A 2 fighter 2 rogue for me lacks ranged CC and might encounter some problems soloing.

Just to drop something not so long ago, but there was a suggestion to take the iconic PDK and then do a lesser reincarnation to take it all bard levels (look in the class section for it)
sounded nice

avepepix
10-23-2013, 11:26 AM
If you want a pure bard, spellsinger its the way. WCHT has few hitpoints, few att. The wcht its better to multiclassing.
Focus your atention in sonic damage. Soundburst will daze allmost everything. And enchantment magic school.
And you'll need max UMD posible, wands, and scroll, believme, you will become the support of your party

Wipey
10-23-2013, 11:46 AM
How high evo ( soundburst ) or enchant you can get on bard ?
"Full time" casters have to try REALLY hard to get to 60+ in order to land anything.
DC on that frozen thingy is a joke, everything will make 40 or so reflex save.

Said that, fascinate and OID still works, many songs are buggy and just gotta decide between fury melee or manyshot fury which seem to be very popular.
With deadly items, everyone self hjealing and displacing, noone likes waiting for buffs, there is not much going for bard ( much less pure bard ) sadly.

avepepix
10-23-2013, 12:20 PM
How high evo ( soundburst ) or enchant you can get on bard ?
"Full time" casters have to try REALLY hard to get to 60+ in order to land anything.
DC on that frozen thingy is a joke, everything will make 40 or so reflex save.

Said that, fascinate and OID still works, many songs are buggy and just gotta decide between fury melee or manyshot fury which seem to be very popular.
With deadly items, everyone self hjealing and displacing, noone likes waiting for buffs, there is not much going for bard ( much less pure bard ) sadly.

With that line, non wiz can go well over lvl 20. And i have seen bards and wiz controlling mobs.
Dont forget that the core ability grants 2% chance critic. Marigold crows add +DC in the school you choose.
Spellsong trance add +1 DC. Prodigy +(1/2/2) to DCs of your Enchantment spells

Steevye
10-23-2013, 12:38 PM
How high evo ( soundburst ) or enchant you can get on bard ?
"Full time" casters have to try REALLY hard to get to 60+ in order to land anything.
DC on that frozen thingy is a joke, everything will make 40 or so reflex save.

Said that, fascinate and OID still works, many songs are buggy and just gotta decide between fury melee or manyshot fury which seem to be very popular.
With deadly items, everyone self hjealing and displacing, noone likes waiting for buffs, there is not much going for bard ( much less pure bard ) sadly.

Yeah I'm not impressed with my maxed out DCs with my bard, but then again max spells are only a level 6 with the class.

At this point my most useful (and used) spells are at a 48-50 range, they work very well in EH and hardly at all in EE. It's not like I built her for EE anyway, but it would be nice to see that difficulty level balanced a little more. I'm not at all saying "every" build should be viable, but there's a problem when pure builds can't do anything (as if the devs want to see only monkchers or shiradis in end content). If I've seen any change in the game from '08 to now, it's that it has shifted a lot from pure focus to multi focus (I remember being ridiculed in a group when I first started for multiclassing my original, so I LR'd him back to pure).

It's all about fun factor, or so they say.

voodoogroves
10-23-2013, 02:46 PM
How high evo ( soundburst ) or enchant you can get on bard ?
"Full time" casters have to try REALLY hard to get to 60+ in order to land anything.
DC on that frozen thingy is a joke, everything will make 40 or so reflex save.

Said that, fascinate and OID still works, many songs are buggy and just gotta decide between fury melee or manyshot fury which seem to be very popular.
With deadly items, everyone self hjealing and displacing, noone likes waiting for buffs, there is not much going for bard ( much less pure bard ) sadly.

I'm aiming for an evocation bard life here in a bit for one of my characters.

Evocation Bard
10 base
6 levels (heighten)
3 SF, GSF, Wizard PL
5 item
1 spellsong
1 marigold crown
3 sorc lives
2 draconic
3 magister

34 + CHA bonus ... to get a 60 you need a 26 CHA bonus or a 62 charisma

CHA (say) nominal Human Bard 20 in Fatesinger
CHA - Core
18 base
7 levels
5 tome
2 boat
1 exceptional
1 racial
4 class (2 primary, 2 secondary)
2 capstone
2 excellence
1 fatesinger native
1 masked ball
= 44 base
+ items (say +10 to +12)
+ yugo pot
+ EDs, twists


Enchant is nearly the same; you swap some Bard native abilities that essentially replace the PL and Draconic twist.

You can certainly get close, and that's just my math - no Litany in my calcs, abishai cookies, store or house D pots, boosts, etc. (and you can definitely spike some w/ the human action boost stuffs).

supott
10-23-2013, 03:15 PM
I think a pure bard is fun to go thru destinies with. They can use almost all of them n so makes a nice grinding build. Hav yet to attempt soloing ee to test how good it can be tho. Frozen fury still lands on eh. Not 100% but still nice. Great for leveling.

I find it fun. Broken fascinate on undead not nice tho.
Ifeel the heal makes up for no evasion. Big diff in numbers of csw n heal even wo devotion very nice

goodspeed
10-24-2013, 07:20 PM
Yeah I'm not impressed with my maxed out DCs with my bard, but then again max spells are only a level 6 with the class.

At this point my most useful (and used) spells are at a 48-50 range, they work very well in EH and hardly at all in EE. It's not like I built her for EE anyway, but it would be nice to see that difficulty level balanced a little more. I'm not at all saying "every" build should be viable, but there's a problem when pure builds can't do anything (as if the devs want to see only monkchers or shiradis in end content). If I've seen any change in the game from '08 to now, it's that it has shifted a lot from pure focus to multi focus (I remember being ridiculed in a group when I first started for multiclassing my original, so I LR'd him back to pure).

It's all about fun factor, or so they say.

As soon as I saw the new layouts for the enhancments, how they worked, and more to the point how boosts were. Pure was dead. Hell even on a caster taking a couple levels would probably net you tons more. And now with gear, evasion is very easily viable. I mean you've got +10 stats, and +10 or 11 resistance, and what +6 or so parrying?

Steevye
10-25-2013, 09:38 AM
As soon as I saw the new layouts for the enhancments, how they worked, and more to the point how boosts were. Pure was dead. Hell even on a caster taking a couple levels would probably net you tons more. And now with gear, evasion is very easily viable. I mean you've got +10 stats, and +10 or 11 resistance, and what +6 or so parrying?

Pure might not be the optimum choice anymore, but it doesn't stop me from playing a few classes that way. It's not for protesting as much as I just kinda like the pure bard/pure sorc builds. I Tr'd my barb last week (my original toon who'd gone 4 years or more unadulterated and relatively unchanged fundamentally) into a bard splash because I want to see how barbish I can make it with more survivability and fun factor, but otherwise I do really enjoy a pure bard just because I do. Rationality plays very little into my decision...lol.

On a side, however, the addition of heal to the capstone has made the need for evasion less necessary, imho. That's maybe just how I play, I don't particularly enjoy being right in the heat of chaos during battle and rather prefer making enemies debilitated somehow before I chop them to pieces. I just don't find myself taking insane damage from AOEs these days, and if I do I can still manage to rattle off a heal or cure and negate that damage.

unbongwah
10-25-2013, 10:56 AM
OP: ignore the haters; pure bards play just fine. They may not get the Minmaxers Seal of Approval, but when have they ever? :cool:

As always, picking the right build is about figuring out how you want to play your character and finding what best suits that playstyle; not simply doing what everyone else tells you you're "supposed" to do.

Bolo_Grubb
10-25-2013, 11:51 AM
Play what you like.

I have a level 25 pure bard spell singer. Lots of fun, but minor DPS. I play her as mostly a buff bot/back healer/chest buffer/ and then melee DPS.

I also have a 18 bard/2 rogue that I enjoy a lot. The 2 rogue levels just add a lot of utility. This toon however is on the TR train for a bit to build up some melee past lives.

Steevye
10-25-2013, 11:58 AM
OP: ignore the haters; pure bards play just fine. They may not get the Minmaxers Seal of Approval, but when have they ever? :cool:

As always, picking the right build is about figuring out how you want to play your character and finding what best suits that playstyle; not simply doing what everyone else tells you you're "supposed" to do.

I find myself internally reiterating this time and time again...

Zachski
10-28-2013, 02:50 AM
Sorry about not replying for so long, real life tackled me and I temporarily forgot I even made this topic.

The reason I want to play a pure bard is because I want to play a bard. Not a bard/fighter/rogue, not a bard/cleric, just a bard. Splashing anything taints the character for me, and the character ceases to be fun or interesting. I'm this way about every class, not just bard. I'm not even remotely a powergamer, I just suffer from OCD (as in, I'm actually diagnosed, not like a lot of people who think that simply liking organization and patterns in your life qualifies as OCD. It doesn't. It qualifies you as human.)

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll definitely go for a spellsinger, though I think I'll try to include some melee potential early on until partying with other people becomes more rewarding. That shouldn't be too hard.

Steevye
10-28-2013, 03:03 AM
Sorry about not replying for so long, real life tackled me and I temporarily forgot I even made this topic.

The reason I want to play a pure bard is because I want to play a bard. Not a bard/fighter/rogue, not a bard/cleric, just a bard. Splashing anything taints the character for me, and the character ceases to be fun or interesting. I'm this way about every class, not just bard. I'm not even remotely a powergamer, I just suffer from OCD (as in, I'm actually diagnosed, not like a lot of people who think that simply liking organization and patterns in your life qualifies as OCD. It doesn't. It qualifies you as human.)

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll definitely go for a spellsinger, though I think I'll try to include some melee potential early on until partying with other people becomes more rewarding. That shouldn't be too hard.

I'm the same way (I have only one splash at the moment, and I'm not sure how I'll feel about that). I don't necessarily feel it taints the character, but I do like playing a bard...it just doesn't feel bardy enough without 20 levels (and if you hit the epics, Fatesinger FTW).

Only suggestion melee wise early on is use quarterstaves. Easy to get, gives decent attack/damage, and doesn't need master's touch. Later levels you can take the spell and start using martial weapons freely. I'd steer clear of the two handed fighting feats and focus more on casting feats, if going spellsinger (which is my favorite pre, period). Always remember too, Force of Personality is your friend!

Moltier
10-28-2013, 03:52 AM
No splashes, no multi-classing, nothing. Just want to go from Bard level 1 to Bard level 20 to Fatesinger.

I'm guessing this will mean I'll have to be a Spellsinger? In which case...

Can anyone provide any advice on a Spellsinger bard? Leveling, builds, soloing AND partying, and so forth?

I'd really love to be a Warchanter but from what I understand, it's severely underpowered right now.

How would a Spellsinger with some Warchanter work out?


I have a pure bard, and i play mainly EE with her. Basically a full time support bard with some killing ability.

In easy EE quests, i use twists and destiny to kill things, while still doing what the character is focusing.
Primal scream does awesome damage as bard, and energy burst is nice too. Not going to lead killcount (at least not too often), but can do respectable damage.

In hard EE quests and raids, i focus on cc and heals. And of course buffs too. Sometimes neg leveling with wail, but thats all.
My bard is focused on healing and surviving, fascinate and irresistible dance for cc. That way, i can carry pretty much any group to victory. :) Its not everyone's dream, but i dont mind helping first lifers, or even barbs! :)

Often people think bards are useless, or waste of party slot, so its fun to see when they realize a bard can solo heal EEs, raids too.

Another good thing about this kind of bard: you dont need ├╝ber gear.
But if you dont like to heal other people, go for cc, or a full melee build. For a melee version, you will need blitz or fury.

sirgog
10-28-2013, 04:15 AM
Spellsingers have one of the best capstones in the game. Wail is not irrelevant even if everything saves on a 2 (the neg levels still happen unless the mob has SR), and Heal is fantastic.

I personally find a Str-based spellsinger effective. Enough DPS that you are somewhat useful, and you have enough healing to heal a Fall of Truth tank on EH without mana pots without difficulty. Plus you have Fascinate. Never forget Fascinate - it's not needed when things go according to plan, but as soon as someone screws up, you can prevent a lot of wipes with it.

Steevye
10-28-2013, 06:30 PM
Spellsingers have one of the best capstones in the game. Wail is not irrelevant even if everything saves on a 2 (the neg levels still happen unless the mob has SR), and Heal is fantastic.

I personally find a Str-based spellsinger effective. Enough DPS that you are somewhat useful, and you have enough healing to heal a Fall of Truth tank on EH without mana pots without difficulty. Plus you have Fascinate. Never forget Fascinate - it's not needed when things go according to plan, but as soon as someone screws up, you can prevent a lot of wipes with it.

I used the free LR to change my bard to use just STR/CON/CHA and dumped DEX. Boy the change it made to overall support dps...skaldic + deadly + fatesinger dmg bumps + PA + THF allows me to focus the rest of the build on CC and heals, as well as having enchant DCs in the 50s now. Anything EH and lower, as I've said on here before, I control them effortlessly. I also find that the Dirge song from fatesinger to be very, very nice DOT (people are saying bards don't have a DOT, but imho it's arguably one of the best as it's also an AOE and debuffer).

Either way, with my choice weapon equipped and only a x2 multiplier, my crits are hitting around 1000 regularly (though admittedly a solid chunk of this is sonic damage). Nowhere near where my barbarian was hitting, but for a caster specced drow it's not horrid. I can think of worse builds I've done.

Fascinate prevents wipes all the time. I remember in VON3 having a party member aggro that area with 3-4 rooms full of drow casters, archers, and rogues, and watching the group get mauled in the middle...so I fascinated, tossed up some mind fog/otto's spheres, and launched Dirge. Never underestimate the power of a high charisma bard when angry...or desperate...

Zachski
10-28-2013, 06:59 PM
Now I'm torn between melee spellsinger (with some warchanter enhancements) and caster spellsinger XD

Steevye
10-28-2013, 07:08 PM
Now I'm torn between melee spellsinger (with some warchanter enhancements) and caster spellsinger XD

Do both (?)

Because you want to, and because you can :P

Seriously, it's feasible. May take some homework and number crunching, and one may take a sacrifice for the other (imho, melee takes the hit and casting takes precedence...if you freeze a mob it doesn't matter how much dmg you do a swing, it will eventually die and it won't kill you while dancing!).

My pure bard, because she's pure and a drow, naturally has most points into SS and consequently has a lot of pts in warchanter too because...well...the drow tree sucks monkey nuts. I took the cores and the enchantment line 3rd tier. After that, it was wasteful and better spent in WC. My two cents...

Race wise I hear a lot of drow ragging going on, but frankly it's nice to be able to not invest in dex or int and not lose any points to skills in those categories, and it's also nice to have a wicked charisma (and the only race in DDO right now that can have a truly wicked charisma is indeed the drow). So yeah, you get crappy HP, but most bards will anyway especially if pure...that d6 is laughable.

Zachski
10-28-2013, 08:03 PM
Hmm... So maybe, for a human bard...

18 Charisma, 15 Constitution, 15 Strength

Level ups into Charisma, while I using Power Attack and Bard songs to augment my damage and accuracy.
Skills...

UMD
Perform
Concentration
Haggle
Heal
Spellcraft (I'm not sure what Bard spells this will affect, but I'm taking it anyways - I can always remake this character before he gets too far)

Feats...

1: Power Attack
H: Cleave

(Actually this is reversed but okay)
3: Two-Handed Fighting? Maybe?

6: Great Cleave

After this, spellcasting feats. I plan to get Magical Training from the Spellsinger Branch, but perhaps I should pick up Mental Toughness or IMT, too.

Spell Focus Enchantment maybe? Uh... Hm.

Any advice?

Steevye
10-28-2013, 08:29 PM
Hmm... So maybe, for a human bard...

18 Charisma, 15 Constitution, 15 Strength

Level ups into Charisma, while I using Power Attack and Bard songs to augment my damage and accuracy.
Skills...

UMD
Perform
Concentration
Haggle
Heal
Spellcraft (I'm not sure what Bard spells this will affect, but I'm taking it anyways - I can always remake this character before he gets too far)

Feats...

1: Power Attack
H: Cleave

(Actually this is reversed but okay)
3: Two-Handed Fighting? Maybe?

6: Great Cleave

After this, spellcasting feats. I plan to get Magical Training from the Spellsinger Branch, but perhaps I should pick up Mental Toughness or IMT, too.

Spell Focus Enchantment maybe? Uh... Hm.

Any advice?

Ignore spellcraft. Heal is a cross class skill but affects cures, perform is sonic dmg. Bards don't do any other elemental dmg so it's a wasted skill.

Cleave is optional, depending. You do have 1 extra feat than I do so yeah, if it were me, I'd dump it right into cleave. With that considered, great cleave might also be warranted.

THF isn't really useful since you're really limited on feats as is. I always max out Spell focus: enchant and take at least one spell pen feat. I also like Extend (makes hastes and rages less annoyingly short) and quicken (mostly for the painfully long casts like otto's sphere, mind fog, etc.). Quicken also makes group healing a LOT better, and you don't interrupt your own combat for long when you basically instaheal.

Since U19 I personally found both types of toughness to be mostly null and void. The HP is ok, but at cap is only +30. It's a feat slot, remember that, and with the new loot coming out it's less necessary as it no longer offers racial and class enhancements that once gave multiple opps for +10s. Those being gone, toughness is optional. Mental toughness for a high charisma bard isn't need either, I'm sitting pretty at over 2000 sp and hardly ever dip below half thanks to songs and what not replenishing and costing spells less. Higher DCs > more sp. If you mostly land spells successfully the first time, recasts aren't needed, so less sp is theoretically consumed.

TBH heal skill is/isn't needed. That's up to you. I find splashing about 30 pts into WC gets me decent base positive spellpower, and an item makes up the rest. I don't think an additional 11 spellpower from maxing the cross classed skill is worth spending the points in. I'd focus on perform, concentration, bluff/diplo, UMD, and some jump/tumble. Balance never hurts either, because...well...yeah, no one likes lying down in combat.

Haggle in my experience takes care of itself with an item and a high charisma. Most NPC interactions operate off of diplo/bluff, occasionally intimidate but hardly only one of the three. If it's one out of the three, it seems like bluff is the default NPC interaction of choice (tiefling in secret room in partycrashers, for example). Besides all that, diplo/bluff are handy in combat to keep mobs off of you and on the less squishier PCs. It's always up to you, though.

I'd argue that instead of cleave possibly considering improved critical: _____. I took slashing, since I really like my falchions and enjoy the 15-20 range they offer. When over 25% of your attacks are crits, it adds up nicely. Cleave, while it's a 1[W] arc, is still only a 1[W]. Frozen fury tier three does 1.5[W] on a single enemy, and that isn't that much extra damage to mitigate taking it. I have it because I didn't know where else to spend those 3 AP, and it's nice on EN/EH runs to incapacitate enemies frequently without having to cast hold all the time.

Again, my two cents, given my play style, really. If you want more melee than casting, you're on a better track with your list than mine. If you're looking to be competent in epic material (EE aside), then you'll want DCs over 45 because, based on my experience, anything less seems to be ineffective as a whole.

Zachski
10-28-2013, 08:39 PM
Well, bearing in mind, I have that free lesser heart I can use for fixing some mistakes...

I'll stop investing in Spellcraft, but I don't feel like remaking my character even if he's just level 1 for that.

As for feats... yeah, okay, I won't go for THF. Maybe Great Cleave, I don't know.

What I'm doing right now is I'm building my character as a warchanter early on, and then later when Warchanter abilities start to suck, I'll switch over to being primarily Spellsinger with some Warchanter stuff. Skaldic Rage is actually pretty useful at early levels. And since I took Cure Light Wounds as my (temporary) first spell, and since I can heal while in rage, the -4 AC doesn't really hurt all that much. Have I mentioned I actually love the concept of Skaldic Rage?

I think the next spell I take will be Otto's Resistable Dance, if only because I love it as a CC. And I don't really care for Focusing Chant as a combat spell anyways (it's a nice haggle spell though)

I think I will go for Boast early on. Maybe. That +1[W] is mighty attractive. Though I might have to invest more points in it to get more temp health so that I don't lose it all the first monster I fight :S I dunno.

Steevye
10-28-2013, 08:50 PM
I tried boast, and it works best when it's your first cast and you can later stack over 150 temp hp over it. Even then, it's meh.

I wouldn't worry about respeccing a toon due to spellcraft unless you're level 20 and have it maxed. Then, you might want to, because that's 23 points spent that could go elsewhere.

Skaldic is awesome. I still regularly toggle it at level 26, and the -4 AC is negligible. It'd be nice to have a con bump with it for the AC cost, but what can you do. Best part is it stacks with the spell, but so does the AC pen. Either way an eternal +6 STR, +2 CON, +2 will save and only a -6 AC isn't bad. Toss in Inspire Excellence at lvl 21 and you're golden.

I like otto's resistable, but you will eventually give that up for better choices. I personally like sonic blast for early levels, because with a max perform it usually does solid damage and can one shot (or at least use to) kobolds as an AOE. The stun keeps mobs from flanking you too much too.

THF simply increases glancing blows. If it increased the strength bonus, or increased rate of attack, etc., I'd be far more in favor. As it stands, though, the only thing it helps is the monsters around you, and cleave/gc will solve that better anyway.

That in mind, take enchant weapon and all three tiers of the AC bump in WC early on. Did that with my newest TR and he's only a 6th level with a 31 shieldless AC. Considering he has no dex, that's not terrible numerically speaking.

Steevye
10-28-2013, 08:54 PM
I keep forgetting to mention taking Force of Personality. This negates your need for wisdom entirely. Considering my base will saves exceed 60 at 26, and saves against enchantments are well over 70, it's totally worth the feat investment. Virtually no spells are affecting the toon, considering that and her SR is @ a 42. It's also nice when coupled with the WC immunities and drow immunities.

unbongwah
10-28-2013, 09:10 PM
For 2H melee DPS, you should try to get Power Atk (1), Cleave (1), GC (6), and IC:Slash (12) - or blunt if you're an iconoclast who breaks all the rules. ;) Personally I would start with STR no higher than 14; that lets you start CON 16 or more INT for more skill pts. [EDIT: I would invest some pts into Balance, if nothing else.]

For spellcasting: well, that depends on what you want to cast. Short-term buffs? Extend is always welcome. MCMW & Heal? At least Quik+Emp Heal is a good idea. CC spells like Dancing Ball? Heighten, at least one Spell Focus:Enchant (pick up Enchant Specialist from Magister ASAP for another +3 DCs), and possibly Spell Pen x3. Sonic spells? ...not convinced they're a good idea, but you wanna boost DCs, Spell Pen (unless you only use Gtr Shout), and probably Maximize (unless you're just using them for CC). Clearly, you're going to need to decide just how thin you're willing to spread yourself...

I wouldn't bother w/Mental Toughness; you can't afford to squander the feats and between Echoes of Power (Magical Training) and Spellsong Vigor, you shouldn't ever run outta SPs (tho you may have to be patient to wait for them to regen).

Oh, and I would definitely pick up Inspire Excellence as your first epic feat. EDIT: also farm up eElyd (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Elyd_Edge) ASAP; trust me, you [I]really want Inspiring Echoes. :)

Zachski
10-28-2013, 09:11 PM
Hm... actually, Sonic Blast does sound like a more solid choice. I forgot that even Sonic Blast can deal significant damage early on.

As far as Heal goes, Heal does provide negative energy power, which can be slightly useful for Wail once I get it. You don't get negative energy power from Warchanter.

By the way, is Sustaining Song a good investment once I switch over from Warchanter to Spellsinger? Because I kinda wants it.

Also... Force of Personality? Strange, I see a lot of people against using it due to something about will saves not being important later on or something. I'll take that as my level 3 feat then.

As far as THF affecting your strength bonus goes, it kinda does in a roundabout way. Your glancing damage isn't just applied to enemies around you, it's also applied to the enemy you're primarily fighting. At GTHF, you basically deal half again as much damage to the enemy per most of your swings, like basically a 50%? increase in damage on your autoattack.... and this is still applied to other enemies, too. That being said, I don't think I'll make good use out of it due to how low my strength will be in the end. That and I didn't plan on going beyond THF in the first place, which only "doubles" the glancing damage.

I plan on replacing Cure Light Wounds with Master's Touch once I get to level 4. I'm not sure what all the spells I will take are, but I'll figure that out as I go.

Also, I took the light wand at the beginning of the game because I found it useful on my Cleric, it deals slightly more damage than the fire wand, every other weapon was going to be obsolete very quickly, and it'll give me something to use against oozes.

Steevye
10-28-2013, 09:19 PM
or blunt if you're an iconoclast who breaks all the rules. ;)



This made me lol.

It's also true, I have built a character who (as a bard) used staves with the IC feat, nixing the need for master's touch. However these days I no longer break said rules... :o

Good suggestions otherwise. I agree on spell pen having given it a second thought. I do know that trying to break SR in EE estar drow is a royal pain without it, and no matter how effin good your DCs are, if you don't break the SR shield...you just are as worthless as if you had a 29 DC.

Personally I don't currently use heighten, though I'm debating it on a daily basis. I just don't use too many 4th level and under spells anymore, except crushing despair (which lands perfectly fine in EH and lower). Considering bards max out at 6th level spells, it just doesn't always seem worth it, and then I find myself wishing I had it, only to convince myself I don't need it... (repeat ad nauseum).

Sonic spells worked really, really well for me up until level 8 and above, then they became relevant again from about 14-18, then moot afterward. I still use Greater shout like shiradis use MM, though, and mostly because by the time I'm into battle the mobs are at least at a -4 fort save disadvantage from my initial onslaught of debuffs. The stuns are nice as they allow for sneak attacks, but I still prefer hold monster 10 to 1 (especially since the DC for that spell is considerably higher than greater shout's is on my toon, and it allows for a 50% dmg increase).

Did I mention I love bards?

Steevye
10-28-2013, 09:20 PM
I really have tried farming the epic elyd edge...any hints or suggestions? I cannot get a single shard or seal to land at all...period....at least 50 tide turns later....

EDIT:

FoP is a bad thing? Never heard that, I've only seen bards ever swear by it, and trust me, having played builds (non-bards) with ****ty will, I really like being invincible to casters (especially those pesky acolytes and priestesses....).

Did not know that about THF...that's news to me. Never saw that increase on my barb, but then again I hardly paid attention to his dmg past a certain point where every hit was monstrous anyway...

Sustaining song: I always toggle this...always. Why not? It lasts 7 minutes at level 26 and it does anywhere from 3-9 positive heals every second...I mean, that's not a cleric's aura or anything, but it's free heals and it's a group wide buff. If it were individually applied, screw it, don't take it. Otherwise though, there have been times where I made a terrible, stupid error and was lying prone on the ground and it got me back up so I could launch a heal. Also, it's nice for swimming. You never need underwater action while it's going, I promise. I used it in thorn hollow during the long swim part and never needed a single breath, and I no longer waste an item slot or swap anything out when I go swimming. It rocks.

Zachski
10-28-2013, 09:26 PM
Okay, one thing.

Sonic Blast + Cleave = Win. It's an excellent combination. I love it. A lot.

I might go for spell pen... I don't know though. I probably should, actually, if only for Wail (which I'm going to humorously consider the "Negative Level Song that uses SP" instead of the "Instant Death Spell")

So far, this is enjoyable. MUCH more enjoyable than if I had taken Master's Touch as my first spell (funny how it makes such a difference.)

Now if only spell casting animations used the lute or singing instead of the same generic casting animation as everyone else... XD

Steevye
10-28-2013, 09:31 PM
I probably should, actually, if only for Wail (which I'm going to humorously consider the "Negative Level Song that uses SP" instead of the "Instant Death Spell")

Now if only spell casting animations used the lute or singing instead of the same generic casting animation as everyone else... XD

Both of these made me lol too. The second gets a /signed from me, as I've been advocating this change since I started playing bards. I also think we bards should be able to fashion instruments out of our weapons without having to use the sub-par Mad Lute *this got an upgrade with u19(?) and it's still not ideal because it's a greatclub*

But hell, it looks cool.

Zachski
10-28-2013, 09:40 PM
It's funny because I threw up a suggestion thread less than a month ago for unique spellcasting animations for spells cast from a Bard list, as well as divines getting their own unique spellcasting animations.

Didn't get a single reply, and I didn't feel right bumping it so I just let it go "poof".

unbongwah
10-28-2013, 09:56 PM
Also... Force of Personality? Strange, I see a lot of people against using it due to something about will saves not being important later on or something. I'll take that as my level 3 feat then.
A lot of Will-based spells can be negated w/buffs: e.g., FoM protects against Hold & Web, Prot. from Evil protects against Command, Death Ward prevents instakill Necro spells (but not neg energy dmg). Because of that and the feat shortage of most CHA-based classes (i.e., bard, pally, sorc), most folks advocate not bothering w/FoP.

The THF chain is backloaded - i.e., GTHF adds the most DPS since it adds an additional glancing blow - and glancing blows only apply when standing still. Between that and the STR pre-req for ITHF/GTHF, I recommend just skipping them entirely. They're nice to have if you can afford them, but if you're not going the max-STR melee WC route, they're not worth it on a feat-starved build like yours, IMHO.

Zachski
10-28-2013, 10:20 PM
Right, that's more or less what I figured. Hence why I'm not going for it anymore.

Wipey
10-29-2013, 12:03 AM
Yeah I'm not impressed with my maxed out DCs with my bard, but then again max spells are only a level 6 with the class.

I have neglected wizzy, and there's something very cool about enchanting/manipulating bard and if it's possible to get enchant to low sixties , that would be something different to play.
Don't see " classic " bard that often and PMs or Shiradi robots are everywhere.
I forgot almost everything bardy but maybe a drow :
20 base
4 tome
13 items
7 levels
2 racial
4 prestige
2 ship
2 yugo
2 capstone
2 inspire excellence
2- 6 ED ? ( no idea what's good to take or even if Magister or Fatesinger ) so 64 maybe ?

27 charisma
10 base
6 level
4 feats ( wizzy PL, focus , greater focus, epic focus )
5 item
1 drow
1 marigold
1 trance
2 prodigy
3 magister that makes 60 ( low sixties against will is actually useful ), guess it can be higher ( Litany and better tome or whatnot ), and wouldn't be that horrible after all I guess :)

Zachski
10-29-2013, 12:05 AM
You know what would be nice?

If gaining an epic level made it so that your highest spell level is automatically 9 for the purposes of heighten, even if you're incapable of casting that high.

And every two epic levels you gain (after the first) make it so that your "highest spell level" is one higher than that.

That would help wizards, bards, and everyone else, too.

Steevye
10-29-2013, 02:20 AM
I have neglected wizzy, and there's something very cool about enchanting/manipulating bard and if it's possible to get enchant to low sixties , that would be something different to play.
Don't see " classic " bard that often and PMs or Shiradi robots are everywhere.
I forgot almost everything bardy but maybe a drow :
20 base
4 tome
13 items
7 levels
2 racial
4 prestige
2 ship
2 yugo
2 capstone
2 inspire excellence
2- 6 ED ? ( no idea what's good to take or even if Magister or Fatesinger ) so 64 maybe ?

27 charisma
10 base
6 level
4 feats ( wizzy PL, focus , greater focus, epic focus )
5 item
1 drow
1 marigold
1 trance
2 prodigy
3 magister that makes 60 ( low sixties against will is actually useful ), guess it can be higher ( Litany and better tome or whatnot ), and wouldn't be that horrible after all I guess :)

Right now my lvl 26er has a maxed out charisma at a 58. I expect this to be a 60, maybe even a 62, by cap. DCs atm are in the 50 range, though I have plans with some twists and items to move that closer to 60.

In response to the idea of adding a spell level epic level 1 and onward (addressed to zachski's post), I think that might be overpowered. We don't want the melees crying again because we're outdoing them with our finger wagging...even though bards only have a single instakill spell and it's only available thru one PRE tree...

kryscendo
10-30-2013, 08:03 PM
All my bards have FoP .. I usually took it "later" rather than sooner ... 12 and up because of other feats that I needed. I can see a huge difference between having it and not ....

Or has FoP been changed?

Steevye
10-30-2013, 08:30 PM
All my bards have FoP .. I usually took it "later" rather than sooner ... 12 and up because of other feats that I needed. I can see a huge difference between having it and not ....

Or has FoP been changed?

Nope, still works fine as it always has. I notice it works better with than without too, even with the WC immunities and the spells like FOM and such. It's ok not to have it, but I just grow weary of having enemy casters rip me a new one when I enter combat. Having stellar saves has been a godsend in epic content...