PDA

View Full Version : Occupy Stormreach grows!



Pages : 1 2 3 [4]

sha123
10-23-2013, 12:40 PM
No that [b]IS[/b}the point. The fact that youre not seeing or acknowledging it doesnt make my solid irrefutable position go away. The fact that you gloss over everything posted and just continue to repeat that nothing was gained, which is incorrect. Customer feedback is always a plus. We pay the bills after all.



Incorrect. I cited cases in very recent Turbine history where lack of support caused them to revert their plans. All you do is continue to repeat that nothing was accomplished, when in fact if you were aware of Turbines case history on such matters, youd clearly see how this situation is akin to the one I cited. Since you have no refutation for those however,m you attempt to gloss over them and repeat that nothing was accomplished. That repeated argument with no logic behind it whatsoever has already been dismantled.



Wrong. It got Turbines attention, multiple media outlet attention, mass player attention. Attention in the MMO community. That battle is still being fought. Youre continued claiming that it still will change is false, unless you have a delorian, a flux capacitor, and 1.21 jiggawatts, you do not know that the goal hasnt been accomplished yet. THey could be in a meeting right now discussing cancelling the changes due to overwhelming lack of support for them, but you wouldnt know that, yet you will still claim its going to change? If youre from the future, who wins the next 5 super bowls. Daddy needs a new pair of shoes.



You dont see the difference. The difference is there though. The problem isnt that we have no point, its that you fail to see it. The player base has represented itself quite well, in sitting in, posting on FB, leaving and filling out exit surveys, etc....what exactly have you done? Attempted to instigate, and failed to do so. What exactly is your position on this issue anyhow, other than attempted instigation. You have quite a few posts here and yet other than the same repeated "you guys arent acomplishing anything" (which has been proven wrong as nauseum throughout) youre really not dropping any logic here. There are some small number of folks who do support the change, and some of them have stated their reasons why. Youre not among them.

LOL....Keep kidding yourself that you are making a difference. I do enjoy watching you guys just stand there and waste your time.

Lanhelin
10-23-2013, 12:41 PM
If that is the case, and they won't come to the table without us having to raise holy hell every time, then they will only cause more players to leave.
Nobody wins.

Funny thing: If we would have asked questions that don't target answers containing any numbers, we probably got an answer earlier:


Worldcrafter is more right than I was, with my misleading "3 per quest" comment. (This is part of why devs sometimes fear to speak and put out 'real' numbers because we make mistakes, and those of us good with numbers are not necessarily the same of us who are good with words.)

My apologies, again.

I don't know English that very good to be able to detect if this is just a joke or a reason meant to be serious? English natives, please help me understand this.

Enoach
10-23-2013, 12:42 PM
The "Sit In" does appear to have created publicity and has helped to spread the "news" a bit further...

The forums unfortunately become to filled with the vitriol instead of rational discussion on why the players don't like the change. Of course it does not help when 1) These changes are not fully disclosed and 2) The numbers don't match what the DEVs say they should be - Example: Screen Shot showing 17 CoVs on a Hard Completion with the Store showing 900 CoVs to purchase a Heart of Wood.

I give prop's to the people that staged this sit in and also prop's to those that are posting in the LAM thread with rational points and counterpoints to the proposed system.

I do hope that Turbine does realize that with as few sagas as they have in the GAME it is way to early to think about "Tying" anything to them.

Personally I hope they realize this and Create some additional Sagas that can be run:-> Small Saga with rewards adjusted based on # of Quests (Including Raids in some to help boost the # of Quests)
1. Vault Of Night - 6 Quests (Heroic/Epic)
2. Red Fens - 5 Quest Saga (Heroic/Epic)
3. Carnival - 4 Quest Saga (Heroic/Epic)
4. Sentinel - 4 Quest Epic / 5 Quest Heroic
5. Vale of Twilight - 6 Quests (Heroic)
6. Amrath - 7 Quests (Heroic)
7. Cannith - 5 Quests (Heroic)
8. Sands - 10 Quest (Heroic)/5 Quests (Epic)

These would allow for a Quick turn around and open up Saga Options for those not FR players. Reward amounts can be adjusted based on the # of Quests and these SAGAs will be similar to GH ones in that there is no overlap with another saga.

Chai
10-23-2013, 12:42 PM
LOL....Keep kidding yourself that you are making a difference. I do enjoy watching you guys just stand there and waste your time.

Weve made that difference quite a few times in the past. Every time you TR and you get to keep your tomes, you can thank us. Every time you TR and get to keep your previous epic XP earned, you can thank us. No ones kidding themselves about making the difference, because have, are, and will continue to do so in the future. Customers, the most important people in any business equation, are never wasting their time in providing feedback about what they want in the product.

Other than the constant repetition of not making a difference, which has been proven wrong at every turn, what is your actual logical position on this issue?

Lanhelin
10-23-2013, 12:44 PM
I do enjoy watching you guys just stand there and waste your time.

LOL, so you're standing there too?

Qhualor
10-23-2013, 12:51 PM
The publicity, yes that may have been a direct result of the bridge sit in.

I don't the publicity mattered all that much either. It was an unfinished product and still is. They were never going to require 500 hours of game play for a heart. The other issues are still in discussion, but I doubt they are sweating because far less than 1% of the player base is sitting on a bridge on Wayfinder. They realize that almost the entire player base is unhappy based on very clear forum posts/responses.

The players have corrected the devs several times in the other thread on the numbers. In the past we have had to show a number of things that were incorrectly giving out the wrong numbers on many things for the devs to fix.

If you have been playing for awhile, you would know its rare for anything to change between Lamma and Live. Normally what's on Lamma goes straight to Live.

Chauncey1
10-23-2013, 12:53 PM
LOL, so you're standing there too?

This individual just fails to understand that all the negativity we're receiving from certain players only strengthens our resolve and affirms that we are doing the right thing and in the right way.

I've seen this happen on other forums of the political variety.

Chauncey1
10-23-2013, 12:54 PM
Funny thing: If we would have asked questions that don't target answers containing any numbers, we probably got an answer earlier:



I don't know English that very good to be able to detect if this is just a joke or a reason meant to be serious? English natives, please help me understand this.

I can't say for sure. I wasn't part of that particular conversation, so I don't know the context.

Qhualor
10-23-2013, 12:55 PM
LOL....Keep kidding yourself that you are making a difference. I do enjoy watching you guys just stand there and waste your time.

I can tell you don't play DDO or you would see the difference has been made. What would your mother say if she saw you standing around with a bunch of protesters. Its easy to confuse you if you are standing with us.

slarden
10-23-2013, 01:00 PM
If you have been playing for awhile, you would know its rare for anything to change between Lamma and Live. Normally what's on Lamma goes straight to Live.

Reincarnation was specifically excluded from the last Laminia release so there is no reason to think it was final. With this epic / iconic reincarnation process, it's clear the devs have been soliciting our feedback and adjusting course since the first post on it.

There is no chance Turbine every intended for us to run 500 hours of quests to get a heart through game play which is more time than it takes to cap all epic destines. Producer Glin's twitter feed supports that as does his forum posts. No, I don't think it was ever going to live that way.

I don't think the bridge protest is a bad thing, I just think we would be in the same place we are now without it. I want to see changes, but I don't think sitting on a bridge is going to persuade Turbine to make a change.

Drwaz99
10-23-2013, 01:08 PM
There is no chance Turbine every intended for us to run 500 hours of quests to get a heart through game play which is more time than it takes to cap all epic destines. Producer Glin's twitter feed supports that as does his forum posts. No, I don't think it was ever going to live that way.



If that's the case, why do you think they put such arbitrarily high numbers in there? If they had absolutely no intention of shipping it with high numbers, all they have done is create more ill-will.

Personally I think they put high numbers in for this reason:

If no complaints, leave it as is and ship it. If there are complaints, titrate it down slowly until you get to highest maximum number all while achieving acceptable levels of "pain". Personally that's the wrong way to go about it as well.

Krelar
10-23-2013, 01:37 PM
Personally I think they put high numbers in for this reason:

If no complaints, leave it as is and ship it. If there are complaints, titrate it down slowly until you get to highest maximum number all while achieving acceptable levels of "pain". Personally that's the wrong way to go about it as well.

You forgot one:

If people like it, raise the amounts until they don't, then release it. *cough* augments vendors *cough*

Chai
10-23-2013, 01:45 PM
I don't think the bridge protest is a bad thing, I just think we would be in the same place we are now without it. I want to see changes, but I don't think sitting on a bridge is going to persuade Turbine to make a change.

What sitting on the bridge did was garner alot of outside interest in the happenings - quelling the ability to attempt to ghostbane their way out of this by acting like there wasnt any real disagreement in the first place. Its even been posted by Turbine employees in the past that the forumites are a much smaller subset of players, but now they arent just dealing with forumites, they are dealing with forumites, people on FB, reddit, all the media outlets that gave it attention, etc. Its not a self contained entity that they can control by closing off threads in order to exagerate the lack of support as "just a couple of moaners on the forums".

Customer feedback will persuade them from making the change. The sit in and the attention it garnered demonstrated it is a real issue and not something to just blow off like the rants after each update.

Chai
10-23-2013, 01:55 PM
If that's the case, why do you think they put such arbitrarily high numbers in there? If they had absolutely no intention of shipping it with high numbers, all they have done is create more ill-will.

Personally I think they put high numbers in for this reason:

If no complaints, leave it as is and ship it. If there are complaints, titrate it down slowly until you get to highest maximum number all while achieving acceptable levels of "pain". Personally that's the wrong way to go about it as well.

The reason this isnt the way to go about doing it is because its poor business practice to give customers something for a long period of time then take it away from them. The ease of acquisition of TR hearts has been around for ~3 years now. They would have had better reception making them super hard to get in game back in the day and just leaving it that way, rather than making them easier to get for 3 years then nerfing the ease of acquisition.

Couple that with the fact that they have been messing with stuff already in game alot lately, when many feel they could be using that time to give us new content in addition to what we already have rather than nerfing and replacing what is already there, then giving us 2 quests in the next update - which clearly demonstrates where the people hours are being spent.

slarden
10-23-2013, 02:08 PM
If that's the case, why do you think they put such arbitrarily high numbers in there? If they had absolutely no intention of shipping it with high numbers, all they have done is create more ill-will.

Personally I think they put high numbers in for this reason:

If no complaints, leave it as is and ship it. If there are complaints, titrate it down slowly until you get to highest maximum number all while achieving acceptable levels of "pain". Personally that's the wrong way to go about it as well.

They will always put high numbers in because any future attempt to increase the value would be viewed as a nerf. They learned to start high and work your way down. If they don't have a clue what the # should be make it ridiculously high as a placeholder. And that's exactly what they did in this case. From the dev discussion, it's clear they haven't even put much though into the # yet.

Ungood
10-23-2013, 02:13 PM
While the protest has accomplished some things, I am just afraid that any real wins here are fleeting. We certainly get their attention, and got them to come to the table. However, I feel that maybe we have "raised the bar" on the kind of actions it will take to get them to the table again. And now, to get them to listen to us for the next time, it will require a full-scale protest, and perhaps even more.

No my friend, I can speak for no one but myself, but I say "No more" in this front. This is as far as I will go, and I am already appalled that Turbine has pushed us this far to begin with.

patang01
10-23-2013, 02:34 PM
They will always put high numbers in because any future attempt to increase the value would be viewed as a nerf. They learned to start high and work your way down. If they don't have a clue what the # should be make it ridiculously high as a placeholder. And that's exactly what they did in this case. From the dev discussion, it's clear they haven't even put much though into the # yet.

This started before the 'high numbers' They were simply the final nail in the coffin. It's all of it; get rid of tokens, replace with a btc currency, the awful numbers like an arbitrary 2000 to Epic reincarnate? to only getting this through sagas and nowhere else.

This wasn't just a question of terrible arbitrary numbers, it was the absolute naked attempt to string cheese something people wanted (reincarnation - just read the interest when it was first announced) through a set of quests that Turbine wants a better return on.

I mean the whole thing screams 'BUY FR' like nothing. And to remove tokens/shards from Web of Chaos (2 being F2P quests and only source of tokens/shards for F2P players)?

This is not a question of grind; that existed even at the start of the old epic system and added TR feature. This is a question of making the alternative to buying a TR so mindbogglingly terrible that buying seems like the only sane thing to do. Either buying the products that allows you to complete sagas OR buy a TR outright.

And you know what; had Turbine not made this process such a naked cash grab then I suspect a lot of people would've bought a TR anyways. I did in the beginning.

Chai
10-23-2013, 02:41 PM
They will always put high numbers in because any future attempt to increase the value would be viewed as a nerf. They learned to start high and work your way down. If they don't have a clue what the # should be make it ridiculously high as a placeholder. And that's exactly what they did in this case. From the dev discussion, it's clear they haven't even put much though into the # yet.

Its clear they havent learned one bit, because if they did they wouldnt have allowed them to be easily earned for 3 years before making the change. They started at almost free, and now 3+ years later are increasing the time sync, is what is peeving people.

slarden
10-23-2013, 02:42 PM
This started before the 'high numbers' They were simply the final nail in the coffin. It's all of it; get rid of tokens, replace with a btc currency, the awful numbers like an arbitrary 2000 to Epic reincarnate? to only getting this through sagas and nowhere else.

This wasn't just a question of terrible arbitrary numbers, it was the absolute naked attempt to string cheese something people wanted (reincarnation - just read the interest when it was first announced) through a set of quests that Turbine wants a better return on.

I mean the whole thing screams 'BUY FR' like nothing. And to remove tokens/shards from Web of Chaos (2 being F2P quests and only source of tokens/shards for F2P players)?

This is not a question of grind; that existed even at the start of the old epic system and added TR feature. This is a question of making the alternative to buying a TR so mindbogglingly terrible that buying seems like the only sane thing to do. Either buying the products that allows you to complete sagas OR buy a TR outright.

And you know what; had Turbine not made this process such a naked cash grab then I suspect a lot of people would've bought a TR anyways. I did in the beginning.

I don't agree with what they are doing. I think they will come around before U20 is released.

Chai
10-23-2013, 05:00 PM
This started before the 'high numbers' They were simply the final nail in the coffin. It's all of it; get rid of tokens, replace with a btc currency, the awful numbers like an arbitrary 2000 to Epic reincarnate? to only getting this through sagas and nowhere else.

This wasn't just a question of terrible arbitrary numbers, it was the absolute naked attempt to string cheese something people wanted (reincarnation - just read the interest when it was first announced) through a set of quests that Turbine wants a better return on.

I mean the whole thing screams 'BUY FR' like nothing. And to remove tokens/shards from Web of Chaos (2 being F2P quests and only source of tokens/shards for F2P players)?

This is not a question of grind; that existed even at the start of the old epic system and added TR feature. This is a question of making the alternative to buying a TR so mindbogglingly terrible that buying seems like the only sane thing to do. Either buying the products that allows you to complete sagas OR buy a TR outright.

And you know what; had Turbine not made this process such a naked cash grab then I suspect a lot of people would've bought a TR anyways. I did in the beginning.

Yeap exactly.

The better approach would be to concentrate on the quality of the game being the major attraction, and then people want to TR because they actually want to play the game.

What we got instead was an expansion that was barely larger than a regular update, no raid, and a new update that is 2 quests in size, ghostbane-ing of the entire loot tables, and then when people didnt like it and some didnt buy it, they attempt to change the system to make it necessary to buy it to farm TR hearts.

So not that endgame is in decline they want us to TR, but want to leverage that it is much easier to just pay for a heart than grinding one out. The error in marketing is that lack of focus on the quality of the game doesnt make people want to repeatedly run through it like its a hamster wheel. No focus on endgame? Why do I need all these bonuses on my toons for.

Gremmlynn
10-23-2013, 05:26 PM
Its clear they havent learned one bit, because if they did they wouldnt have allowed them to be easily earned for 3 years before making the change. They started at almost free, and now 3+ years later are increasing the time sync, is what is peeving people.Actually they started as store only iirc and this was accepted as it was an add-on feature to the game. Then they were added to the epic token turn ins, when epics were quite a bit tougher. Then added to challenge turn ins, likely to prompt sales of the over-priced challenge pack. When epic normal, hard, elite, even casual, were added they became extremely easy to get.

The fact of the matter is they have been progressively training us to consider free TRs to be the norm. Trying to reverse this trend in one step is where the backlash is coming from. To the point of posters believing the change is about getting more players to run sagas without even considering that it is to make the ddo store the primary source of reincarnation hearts.

Krelar
10-23-2013, 05:45 PM
Actually they started as store only iirc and this was accepted as it was an add-on feature to the game. Then they were added to the epic token turn ins, when epics were quite a bit tougher. Then added to challenge turn ins, likely to prompt sales of the over-priced challenge pack. When epic normal, hard, elite, even casual, were added they became extremely easy to get.


They have been available in the 12 since the very beginning. (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/205992-Reincarnation-Feedback-True-Reincarnation)

From way back in 2009....


As part of our new Reincarnation system, we're previewing the True Reincarnation on Lamannia!
<snip>

A character must be level 20 to True Reincarnate, and must speak with Kruz the reincarnation trainer in House Jorasco. Kruz requires a True Heart of Wood to perform a reincarnation. True Hearts of Wood can be purchased in the DDO Store, or earned by collecting epic tokens in the new Epic difficulty dungeons.

<snip>

Gremmlynn
10-23-2013, 06:07 PM
They have been available in the 12 since the very beginning. (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/205992-Reincarnation-Feedback-True-Reincarnation)

From way back in 2009....Hmm, my memory must be failing as I thought TRing predated epic content by a bit, good thing I qualified my statement. Still the point holds. In 2009 epics were a lot more challenging than epic normal, or casual, is today or has been for the last year+. At least from the standpoint of going from little surplus tokens anytime before MotU to having the ~200 in my bags today. At least for me, a heart isn't even something that needs be farmed for, just had from the tokens I pick up anyway.

Qhualor
10-23-2013, 06:14 PM
Hmm, my memory must be failing as I thought TRing predated epic content by a bit, good thing I qualified my statement. Still the point holds. In 2009 epics were a lot more challenging than epic normal, or casual, is today or has been for the last year+. At least from the standpoint of going from little surplus tokens anytime before MotU to having the ~200 in my bags today. At least for me, a heart isn't even something that needs be farmed for, just had from the tokens I pick up anyway.

old epics were more challenging than EE. fun times, unless you were an archer, divine or arcane caster.

Chai
10-23-2013, 06:15 PM
Actually they started as store only iirc and this was accepted as it was an add-on feature to the game. Then they were added to the epic token turn ins, when epics were quite a bit tougher. Then added to challenge turn ins, likely to prompt sales of the over-priced challenge pack. When epic normal, hard, elite, even casual, were added they became extremely easy to get.

THey were always easy to get. Mass hold + autocrit wasnt hard, it was just extremely niche, and most players would not bow to the don of blanket immunities back then, so refused to run epics. Timers on epic quests were one day, but each quest gave one token with the tougher quests giving two tokens.

Nowdays its insanely easy because normal and hard on epic is akin to normal and hard in heroics, and the timer is removed. Many quests give like ~35 token shards though.


The fact of the matter is they have been progressively training us to consider free TRs to be the norm. Trying to reverse this trend in one step is where the backlash is coming from. To the point of posters believing the change is about getting more players to run sagas without even considering that it is to make the ddo store the primary source of reincarnation hearts.

Yes indeed. It a catch 22 for those who dont want to spend unless they feel they are getting quality for what they paid for.

If someone didnt buy the expansion for instance, and they like to TR due to playing through the best content in this game (which is the stuff made in the first 2 years), now they have to either:

Buy the expansion to farm hearts in it, as sagas use expansion quests on their lists, even though they previously decided to not buy it in the past.

-or-

Buy TR hearts directly from the store.

Either way, now that end game is all but gone, TR was one thing that kept people playing, and now that alot of people got hooked, they are financially leveraging TRs by nerfing ease of acquisition of the hearts in game. THey are even making it easier to XP, as well as selling raw XP in the store.

Congrats to those who adamantly supported the store over the game itself as the focus for financial success. They got what they wanted. Or did they? Most of their posts I see have been looking very similar to mine circa 2010-2011, when they were disagreeing with me. :p

uncleblue
10-23-2013, 06:16 PM
I'm not even there, cowboy. How about you strut about some more and tell everyone about how you're a "real" veteran in a game where there are likely a lot more vets around that just me and how everyone should "thank you" because you volunteered for service and, consequently, cashed those crappy paychecks?

Unless you were drafted, of course, in which case what are you doing trolling in the first place?

(You can submit your DD-214 with name/social blocked-out to actually prove it, btw, though no one cares, anyway.)

Not sure why I am bothering explaining, but you obviously have the wrong idea, so I'll try:

The vet reference was to show that I fight for things I believe in, and things that are important.
Nothing more, nothing less.

This issue is FAR from important. An owie on my finger is more important.

If an issue actually matters, I am all for protesting.
In a game, ridiculous.

Gremmlynn
10-23-2013, 06:33 PM
Yes indeed. It a catch 22 for those who dont want to spend unless they feel they are getting quality for what they paid for.

If someone didnt buy the expansion for instance, and they like to TR due to playing through the best content in this game (which is the stuff made in the first 2 years), now they have to either:

Buy the expansion to farm hearts in it, as sagas use expansion quests on their lists, even though they previously decided to not buy it in the past.

-or-

Buy TR hearts directly from the store.

Either way, now that end game is all but gone, TR was one thing that kept people playing, and now that alot of people got hooked, they are financially leveraging TRs by nerfing ease of acquisition of the hearts in game. THey are even making it easier to XP, as well as selling raw XP in the store.

Congrats to those who adamantly supported the store over the game itself as the focus for financial success. They got what they wanted. Or did they? Most of their posts I see have been looking very similar to mine circa 2010-2011, when they were disagreeing with me. :pProbably true. But I'm getting the impression that at this point they have no other real recourse. What was a worthwhile profit for Turbine simply isn't cutting it with WB who has better options to use DDOs budget on. So it's either be successful at cash grabs or drop to maintenance level or less.

uncleblue
10-23-2013, 06:46 PM
Judging by the response, they'll be gone the second we're not looking. It'll be impossible to change anything at that time. It's important to negotiate all the details now, before the changes are live. This is nothing more than a trick to fool the disappointed players, one they've used consistently in the past.

Except now there's a unique chance to overcome it. That's why I'd urge everyone who still opposes the core of the changes to stay on the bridge and remain active in the discussion.

What's really funny is that you think it's a negotiation.

Daine
10-23-2013, 06:50 PM
I'm sure I'm not alone in this, my new Wayfinder toon, "Fragment" was on the bridge very early on. I used my main/only account to create him; so long as he stands there I'm not playing and thus I'm not consuming and Turbine not profitting from me.

It's not just about a show of solidarity it's about letting them see how their subscriptions and sales drop off. No adventuring means no XP or mana pots, it definitely means no hearts of wood purchased from us.

The bridge sit-in also allows me to browse through a couple of upcoming MMO's I'm interested in. Sure, I would have subscribed to one in particular regardless, but now instead of just waiting for it to launch, I've got my hand up for beta and am getting pretty excited by it and frankly excited by the prospect of having a lot of the great DDO community come on over as they look for a new home as well.

...but for now I stand tall, ignoring common sense and my gut feelings, still hoping that the devs will see what they're doing to DDO. History shows us that despite the endless times tyrants have just steamrolled over the innocent, peaceful protest does occasionally work.

Chai
10-23-2013, 06:50 PM
Not sure why I am bothering explaining, but you obviously have the wrong idea, so I'll try:

The vet reference was to show that I fight for things I believe in, and things that are important.
Nothing more, nothing less.

This issue is FAR from important. An owie on my finger is more important.

If an issue actually matters, I am all for protesting.
In a game, ridiculous.

What you consider a game most of the players protesting consider a community, with a game interface. If this was "just a game" like skyrim for instance, id play through it once a year or so then shelve it. It may not matter to you, so its easy to make fun of it, even though it matters to someone else alot more than it matters to you.

Paying customers providing feedback on what they want in the product they paid for, is never rediculous. To you its a game, to Turbine, what you call a game, is the entity that pays their bills and cuts their employees checks. This "game" is their income. This issue is far more important than those who mock it realize, due to lack of ability or willingness to realize that somethign that isnt really important to them, can be very important to someone else.

uncleblue
10-23-2013, 06:52 PM
Except that you are not factoring in how many players those other games have paying "something" and how many this one has. The vast majority of the costs for an MMO are static, the same regardless of whether they have 10 playing customers or 10 million. DDO seems to be a lot closer to the former than the latter.

Also, no store consumables and certainly no store cosmetics, are needed to play and that content is buy once and done. It also costs considerately less than that in my experience. Between first time server points and re-earning points in every character slot every TR or re-roll. New favor available every time new content is had. Only those who want to put no effort into the system are paying what you say. That's not even taking into consideration that not many would even want to have all of it.

Then take into account that TRing, in itself, isn't necessary to play and I don't see why so many think it's something they have some sort of right to do easily for free. What next, free server transfers or name changes?

Careful with that logic, they will burn you at the stake for making too much sense.

Chai
10-23-2013, 07:00 PM
Then take into account that TRing, in itself, isn't necessary to play and I don't see why so many think it's something they have some sort of right to do easily for free. What next, free server transfers or name changes?

THery feel it should be easily accessible for free because Turbine allowed for it to be accessible for free for 3-4 years now. Instead of changing current game mechanics, give us something new. Note the next update has 2 quests, because all the time is spent revamping all these old mechanisms rather than making new content.

uncleblue
10-23-2013, 07:02 PM
Please rest assured, I am most certainly not annoyed by your presence or redundancy; as I have claimed before, I am merely curious. My curiosity stems from my desire to write and that I enjoy role playing. These factors combine together, so I attempt to make characters I write about feel more like a separate entity then just a projection of myself. This, in turn, leads me to wonder about the human condition, and what makes certain people tick.

I have not called you a troll, but it is a possibility I have not ruled out, particularly with the sardonic and condescending nature of your posts toward others. If you'll forgive the brutal honesty, prior to posting I just rolled my eyes and skipped your post whenever I saw one coming up. It was the frequency of your posts that made me pause and wonder what has kept you coming back so if you were so against their actions. That, in turn, made me contemplate why you kept posting.

I apologize for the indignation that I have caused you, but it does go a long way to answering my question. Thank you for your time.

That was pretty.

Say something about me now?

Gremmlynn
10-23-2013, 07:03 PM
Careful with that logic, they will burn you at the stake for making too much sense.I'm used to it. The day I fear people who consider going AFK on a bridge in a video game is a protest is the day they can put me away.

uncleblue
10-23-2013, 07:09 PM
The forum outrage would have garnered a response regardless of the bridge thing. Honestly I think we would be in exactly the same place with or without people parked on a wayfinder bridge.

I don't think this form of protest is bad, I just think you and others are giving it more credit for a response than warranted.

Amen

Gremmlynn
10-23-2013, 07:11 PM
THery feel it should be easily accessible for free because Turbine allowed for it to be accessible for free for 3-4 years now. Instead of changing current game mechanics, give us something new. Note the next update has 2 quests, because all the time is spent revamping all these old mechanisms rather than making new content.I'm of the belief that Turbine was rushed in their initial release and have been playing catch up by making it up as they go along since. They should have had a pretty good idea about epic levels before the game ever got to alpha and TRing should have been made to fit their overall plan (which I don't even think they have one of) before writing the code for it was even started. So it's not hard to believe they are remaking the game every other update or so to correct problems made by the last remake.

uncleblue
10-23-2013, 07:15 PM
Reincarnation was specifically excluded from the last Laminia release so there is no reason to think it was final. With this epic / iconic reincarnation process, it's clear the devs have been soliciting our feedback and adjusting course since the first post on it.

There is no chance Turbine every intended for us to run 500 hours of quests to get a heart through game play which is more time than it takes to cap all epic destines. Producer Glin's twitter feed supports that as does his forum posts. No, I don't think it was ever going to live that way.

I don't think the bridge protest is a bad thing, I just think we would be in the same place we are now without it. I want to see changes, but I don't think sitting on a bridge is going to persuade Turbine to make a change.

Speak the words I did not, but meant to.

Qhualor
10-23-2013, 07:19 PM
I'm used to it. The day I fear people who consider going AFK on a bridge in a video game is a protest is the day they can put me away.

Memnir is doing trivia right now. People do talk too.

ReaperAlexEU
10-23-2013, 07:53 PM
dev's are still in heavy discussion about this:


We're not knee-jerk reacting without spending evaluating your feedback and spending real time on this. We don't have announcements right now because we're still meeting about it. The continued (constructive) feedback continues to help, especially when it's specific to the issues at hand, and answers the "why" more than the "how". That's sometimes hard to get, but it shows up when there's enough volume of feedback -- which we have!

I've personally discussed this in at least three or four different meetings today, not counting the dozen or so discussions in hallways, at someone's desks, or via digital communications. Gets hard to keep count after a while.

And given the posting mistakes I've personally already made (and corrected), I know I'd like to be sure of what's what before potentially misleading or misinforming anyone. There's been enough of that.

eonfreon
10-23-2013, 08:07 PM
Reincarnation was specifically excluded from the last Laminia release so there is no reason to think it was final. With this epic / iconic reincarnation process, it's clear the devs have been soliciting our feedback and adjusting course since the first post on it.

There is no chance Turbine every intended for us to run 500 hours of quests to get a heart through game play which is more time than it takes to cap all epic destines. Producer Glin's twitter feed supports that as does his forum posts. No, I don't think it was ever going to live that way.

I don't think the bridge protest is a bad thing, I just think we would be in the same place we are now without it. I want to see changes, but I don't think sitting on a bridge is going to persuade Turbine to make a change.

It may or may be that we would be in the same place without the bridge protest. But what we know it did do; is bring quite a lot of extra attention to an issue of varying importance to people. And it was done in a decent, constructive manner. And it was extremely visible.

Those are in and of themselves a contribution to the issue. It was not an attack at the company. It was a peaceful protest. I wasn't there because DDO just doesn't matter to me anymore. But I liked DDO enough that I do think people have a point in what quality they expect from the company.

I know they need money, but they need to think about where they're getting it from. TRing is already too ingrained into the game for them to mess with it too much. It has already done it's job of extending the longevity and interest in the game. I fear they are very close to "double-dipping". They've already made a fair amount of cash from monetizing it in the first place with XP pots and such. They really don't want to remind people that it already is a cost to the game player, one that is paid by a fair amount of players in one form or other (you need packs of content to play in the first place and xp pots to deal with the xp requirements).

The value of the requirements is one thing. The placeholder values however are not all the issue. There is also the fact that they were discussing the quick removal of a current system which has already been "paid for" in "playtime". Yes, everything is transient; I myself may not ever even TR again, so I may not have any need for those Tokens in the first place. But it was "earned" by me when I was either paying a monthly sub or purchasing the content that had the Epic content I wanted to play in.

Creating a new system with a new currency is understandable and actually desirable. I would like to do something new. I would prefer for it to be more linear with new high level quests rather than this whole Reincarnation stuff through previous content, but that is pretty much all they are adding to the game. And they are trying too hard to de-value a system that did it's job perfectly well of getting people to continually play and thus purchase things in the game.

They still mean to de-value Tokens at some point. But the fact that it won't be this update, even though the replacement was initially a major point of this update, is something rather large; it is time added to the value of a system that they want to defunct. To make it to a more fine point; it is the reason I don't log into my characters and just convert them all into HoW. Because if that's what the game made me do I wouldn't bother. That's just too quick of a change otherwise; filling my inventory with countless HoW would just make it not worth it to ever bother. Which means any thought of me being a paying customer is just thrown out the window.

And I think the bridge made a very good point of making a visible "stink". And that if nothing else, it bought time. We can't really measure it but it was no small contributor of that. It was about being Visible more than Vocal. It may have some further effect, it may not. I wasn't there, I just don't care about this video game to do that. But I think for Turbine's sake it also illustrates that they did something right as well, that they created a game that many people like are are passionate about. I hope the game has a few more good years. I think it could if they shift into more quality content. More design rather than re-design.

NaturalHazard
10-23-2013, 08:48 PM
Hmm, my memory must be failing as I thought TRing predated epic content by a bit, good thing I qualified my statement. Still the point holds. In 2009 epics were a lot more challenging than epic normal, or casual, is today or has been for the last year+. At least from the standpoint of going from little surplus tokens anytime before MotU to having the ~200 in my bags today. At least for me, a heart isn't even something that needs be farmed for, just had from the tokens I pick up anyway.

Don't forget that also back then tokens where also needed for all?/most augments so that was another drain sort of on how much augments you could spare for more hearts.

Personally I wouldn't even be that annoyed if they changed them back to epic tokens, put them in every epic level quest and upped the amount needed if they are *that* desperate to sell more in the store, heck even if they double the amount, or even more than double the amount needed. This saga thing though is just..............., I do run saga's but like to do it for the current rewards...........thats when all the quests in a saga are *available* if it goes through like how it was first suggested I would be running saga's only for the coms, missing out on all the other stuff. And having them btc is also crippling, I like running alts and farming stuff that I can then use across all my toons, this btc coms for tr hearts is going to make it less attractive to play their other characters, it might make getting balanced parties even harder......."hey man we really need CC in this quest can you bring your bard along? " sorry man, ive got to farm saga's only on my main now, all my alts are on the back burner".....................

Im also tired of how a lot of things are introduced then abandoned half finished if that, yay a whole new system again.

Ungood
10-23-2013, 10:54 PM
Not sure why I am bothering explaining, but you obviously have the wrong idea, so I'll try:

The vet reference was to show that I fight for things I believe in, and things that are important.
Nothing more, nothing less.

This issue is FAR from important. An owie on my finger is more important.

If an issue actually matters, I am all for protesting.
In a game, ridiculous.

Fascinating, you claim this is nothing to you, that what transpires here has no value to you, but you come to hurl venom on others, it reminds me of a time past, when people who would protest wars would spit upon the solders, but when questioned on it, they would say it was a waste of life, time and money, and that the solders should never have to go off and fight. Rather amusing watching someone who claims to be military take on all the negative stereotypes of the protesting hippy-esque people who would attack those fighting for something they believe in.

While I really could not bring myself to care less about what you have to say on this topic, in fact, I have come to all but ignore your posts, as I find you little more then mildly amusing in your antic, it does seem rather fascinating to see you act in this manner. While I would just write you off as troll baiting, like most, your continual investment into this topic tends to make it seem as if you have something at risk here, that what is transpiring is indeed far more valuable to you then you want to let on.

While I can't say I am moved to wonder what your motives are, I do find that it piques my interest that you deny any investment into the situation, while yet you squander your time here on the forums decrying people for voicing something that does concern them. I wonder how it must feel to have such omnipotent visage of yourself, to view that the world must abide by what you consider significant and important.

NaturalHazard
10-23-2013, 11:47 PM
While I can't say I am moved to wonder what your motives are, I do find that it piques my interest that you deny any investment into the situation, while yet you squander your time here on the forums decrying people for voicing something that does concern them. I wonder how it must feel to have such omnipotent visage of yourself, to view that the world must abide by what you consider significant and important.

Maybe his motive is just entertainment?

I scratch my head a bit about his protesting about a game is not on................well people are protesting about a video game *in* a video game its not like they are all camped outside turbines offices or anything or harassing people outside the game, and they are not even really harassing people inside it. I don't really see why he should really care. So outside of getting a kick out of winding people up..................I don't know, maybe hes so in love with turbine that anything negative about it gets his panties in a twist? Though this sort of thing isn't always bad, it can be good for the company showing them how some of their customers feel about things in game, so might lead them to making better decisions and plans for the future who knows?

Arnhelm
10-24-2013, 12:59 AM
Might be the purpose is to get people ramped up enough that this thread gets locked.

NaturalHazard
10-24-2013, 01:36 AM
Might be the purpose is to get people ramped up enough that this thread gets locked.

lol i dont want this thread locked :D

Lanhelin
10-24-2013, 02:07 AM
The bridge sit-in now lasts more than incredible 120 hours on Wayfinder, Marketplace #1, #2 and #3!


If you're interested, take a look at the (updated with Video Section) Occupy Stormreach Press Review (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142323&viewfull=1#post5142323) and the Screenshot Gallery (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142509&viewfull=1#post5142509).


Kudos (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428642-Time-to-say-quot-thank-you!-quot-to-all-that-support-Occupy-Stormreach) to the protesters.


Welcome to Day 6 :)

Dandonk
10-24-2013, 02:52 AM
The bridge sit-in now lasts more than incredible 120 hours on Wayfinder, Marketplace #1, #2 and #3!


If you're interested, take a look at the (updated with Video Section) Occupy Stormreach Press Review (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142323&viewfull=1#post5142323) and the Screenshot Gallery (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142509&viewfull=1#post5142509).


Kudos (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428642-Time-to-say-quot-thank-you!-quot-to-all-that-support-Occupy-Stormreach) to the protesters.


Welcome to Day 6 :)

Good morning, Bridge! A bunch of better people I have not met in game - thank you all.

Cauthey_No_CCInfo
10-24-2013, 03:04 AM
The bridge sit-in now lasts more than incredible 120 hours on Wayfinder, Marketplace #1, #2 and #3!


If you're interested, take a look at the (updated with Video Section) Occupy Stormreach Press Review (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142323&viewfull=1#post5142323) and the Screenshot Gallery (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142509&viewfull=1#post5142509).


Kudos (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428642-Time-to-say-quot-thank-you!-quot-to-all-that-support-Occupy-Stormreach) to the protesters.


Welcome to Day 6 :)

Put all of that stuff in your signature, please. :)

Thank you for keeping up with all of it. :)

IronClan
10-24-2013, 03:07 AM
I'm afriad I have to ask everyone to leave the wayfinder bridge and go to your homes. I have a permit from Stormreach city counsel to start a new protest on the Wayfinder bridge:

*Exploiters occupy stormreach!*

Day 1 we'll need an exploiter to start a guild, named something snappy: I suggest "Turbine made me do it" or "if they leave the keys in the car I should be allowed to take it"


Oh wait I'm being told some information....

Whats that? They can't?
Because?
Oh I see..
two extra weeks?
Okay I'll tell them...

Alright never mind go back to your sit in, apparently the exploiters can't make it for two more weeks.

Postumus
10-24-2013, 03:27 AM
I'm afriad I have to ask everyone to leave the wayfinder bridge and go to your homes. I have a permit from Stormreach city counsel to start a new protest on the Wayfinder bridge:

*Exploiters occupy stormreach!*

Day 1 we'll need an exploiter to start a guild, named something snappy: I suggest "Turbine made me do it" or "if they leave the keys in the car I should be allowed to take it"


Oh wait I'm being told some information....

Whats that? They can't?
Because?
Oh I see..
two extra weeks?
Okay I'll tell them...

Alright never mind go back to your sit in, apparently the exploiters can't make it for two more weeks.



Seriously you need to STOP BOGARTING and SHARE that stuff, man! Because it is obviously some very, very powerful medicine!

TDarkchylde
10-24-2013, 03:29 AM
I'm afriad I have to ask everyone to leave the wayfinder bridge and go to your homes. I have a permit from Stormreach city counsel to start a new protest on the Wayfinder bridge:

*Exploiters occupy stormreach!*

Day 1 we'll need an exploiter to start a guild, named something snappy: I suggest "Turbine made me do it" or "if they leave the keys in the car I should be allowed to take it"


Oh wait I'm being told some information....

Whats that? They can't?
Because?
Oh I see..
two extra weeks?
Okay I'll tell them...

Alright never mind go back to your sit in, apparently the exploiters can't make it for two more weeks.

...What do exploiters even have to do with this thread? Seriously. Quit trying to make drama.

Back on topic, can't believe we've already entered Day 6. Doesn't feel like that long, but I guess time flies when you're having fun.

Postumus
10-24-2013, 03:34 AM
...What do exploiters even have to do with this thread? Seriously. Quit trying to make drama.




Every few weeks we suffer an Ironclanaclysm of threads and responses that pollute the forum. Sorta like red tide.

Flavilandile
10-24-2013, 03:59 AM
I'm afriad I have to ask everyone to leave the wayfinder bridge and go to your homes. I have a permit from Stormreach city counsel to start a new protest on the Wayfinder bridge:

*Exploiters occupy stormreach!*

Day 1 we'll need an exploiter to start a guild, named something snappy: I suggest "Turbine made me do it" or "if they leave the keys in the car I should be allowed to take it"


Oh wait I'm being told some information....

Whats that? They can't?
Because?
Oh I see..
two extra weeks?
Okay I'll tell them...

Alright never mind go back to your sit in, apparently the exploiters can't make it for two more weeks.


Last time I checked the Bridge occupation has absolutely nothing to do with the exploits.
It's about a change in how Hearts of Woods are earned in the upcoming update.

Please don't try to tie both together, as they are totally separate things.

Scuddy
10-24-2013, 04:09 AM
I would post how happy I was to join your Update 20 guild in order to show solidarity with you. But unfortunately from what I hear Turbine is banning people for up to 30 days who talk about occupy in-game. I'd post about how I agree with what you stand for but if I did so publicly on this forum I might receive a forum banning like the people did in-game for talking about Occupy in chat channels and on LFG tabs. So instead of posting a positive message about what a great thing you are doing I will just silently move on without thanking you.

Lanhelin
10-24-2013, 04:39 AM
But unfortunately from what I hear Turbine is banning people for up to 30 days who talk about occupy in-game.

Who spam about occupy in-game, I guess? At least on Wayfinder no player ever spammed. And banning players who are online but do nothing would be some kind of turbid redundancy - which I personally don't believe this really happened or ever will. Beyond that it would create martyrs, so I don't think Turbine would act like that.

AtomicMew
10-24-2013, 04:56 AM
Who spam about occupy in-game, I guess? At least on Wayfinder no player ever spammed. And banning players who are online but do nothing would be some kind of turbid redundancy - which I personally don't believe this really happened or ever will. Beyond that it would create martyrs, so I don't think Turbine would act like that.

No, the bans had nothing to do with spam. People were banned for speaking about occupy, and no other confounding factors.

Ausdoerrt
10-24-2013, 04:59 AM
I would post how happy I was to join your Update 20 guild in order to show solidarity with you. But unfortunately from what I hear Turbine is banning people for up to 30 days who talk about occupy in-game. I'd post about how I agree with what you stand for but if I did so publicly on this forum I might receive a forum banning like the people did in-game for talking about Occupy in chat channels and on LFG tabs. So instead of posting a positive message about what a great thing you are doing I will just silently move on without thanking you.

Don't believe everything you hear. People are spreading drama. Exploiters are having their bans extended, and are trying to misuse the occasion, for which we initially gathered on the bridge.

I stood on the bridge for 3 days, I've spread the issue on other servers, I've been active with the media, and I remained reasonable and level-headed. I've faced no issues and doubt you would as well.
------------------------------------------------------------

Beyond that, I would like to thank everyone for the wonderful times, and say that I'm packing up and leaving Wayfinder for now as well. We didn't get exactly what we came for, but this is no longer the most efficient use of our time and resources, IMO. I would encourage everyone who still cares for the issue to write detailed, constructive posts in the relevant Lammy thread. Use the opportunity while we have it. I'm ready to be back on the bridge if things go south again, but I don't believe this is necessary any longer.

Now let's go enjoy Mabar and make those cheaters jealous :) Feel free to seek me out on Ghallanda if you want to quest together.

-Aus

AtomicMew
10-24-2013, 05:05 AM
Don't believe everything you hear. People are spreading drama. Exploiters are having their bans extended, and are trying to misuse the occasion, for which we initially gathered on the bridge.

I stood on the bridge for 3 days, I've spread the issue on other servers, I've been active with the media, and I remained reasonable and level-headed. I've faced no issues and doubt you would as well.

-Aus

No, it is absolutely 100% true. There have been multiple people banned in relation to occupy stormreach and NOTHING to do with dupeploition.

Ausdoerrt
10-24-2013, 05:06 AM
No, it is absolutely 100% true. There have been multiple people banned in relation to occupy stormreach and NOTHING to do with dupeploition.

This is something I would only believe on factual, detailed evidence, i.e. copy of the ban description, details what they did and how, proof that what they did wasn't malicious, and that they weren't involve in the exploit.

NaturalHazard
10-24-2013, 05:09 AM
No, it is absolutely 100% true. There have been multiple people banned in relation to occupy stormreach and NOTHING to do with dupeploition.

Why would they do this? Wouldn't it just make them look bad/worse?

RedOrm
10-24-2013, 05:40 AM
There's currently about 30 people on the bridge, spread over 3 instances. Most of them have been there since at least the weekend. Doesn't look like standing there is a bannable offense...
So yea, I'd need some hard data on bans before I'm willing to believe Turbine is THAT stupid.

Greetz,
Red Orm

Truga
10-24-2013, 06:49 AM
No, it is absolutely 100% true. There have been multiple people banned in relation to occupy stormreach and NOTHING to do with dupeploition.

Indeed, everyone I know is getting banned!

























See, without proof this is just silly. Until I see some official confirmation on this, you're just a drama queen.

Flavilandile
10-24-2013, 07:10 AM
If true and if it can be proved, it's something that has to be leaked on all those nice website that did report the news that there was a Bridge occupation so that everybody knows how Turbine handle it's customers.

Qhualor
10-24-2013, 07:21 AM
ive been on the bridge since Saturday. im still here and I have been actively voicing my opinion about the TR changes. rumors are just rumors.

Arnhelm
10-24-2013, 08:40 AM
I'm afriad I have to ask everyone to leave the wayfinder bridge and go to your homes. I have a permit from Stormreach city counsel to start a new protest on the Wayfinder bridge:

*Exploiters occupy stormreach!*

Day 1 we'll need an exploiter to start a guild, named something snappy: I suggest "Turbine made me do it" or "if they leave the keys in the car I should be allowed to take it"


Oh wait I'm being told some information....

Whats that? They can't?
Because?
Oh I see..
two extra weeks?
Okay I'll tell them...

Alright never mind go back to your sit in, apparently the exploiters can't make it for two more weeks.
rofl

Lanhelin
10-24-2013, 09:30 AM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/24/the-think-tank-would-you-participate-in-an-in-game-protest/ - not directly about the sit-in, but inspired by it and it's good, that the discussion about it goes on.

Ausdoerrt
10-24-2013, 09:35 AM
Yeah, I'm sure that's what game them the idea in the first place :)

Schaden_freude
10-24-2013, 09:47 AM
Occupy is yesterday's news. Exploitation is hot right now.

Chai
10-24-2013, 09:52 AM
I'm afriad I have to ask everyone to leave the wayfinder bridge and go to your homes. I have a permit from Stormreach city counsel to start a new protest on the Wayfinder bridge:

*Exploiters occupy stormreach!*

Day 1 we'll need an exploiter to start a guild, named something snappy: I suggest "Turbine made me do it" or "if they leave the keys in the car I should be allowed to take it"


Oh wait I'm being told some information....

Whats that? They can't?
Because?
Oh I see..
two extra weeks?
Okay I'll tell them...

Alright never mind go back to your sit in, apparently the exploiters can't make it for two more weeks.

Did you actually obtain that permit legally, or did you print off some copies using the dupe-o-matic 5000? :p

darksol23
10-24-2013, 11:34 AM
Did you actually obtain that permit legally, or did you print off some copies using the dupe-o-matic 5000? :p

Probably got it out of a bag he/she found in a guild chest... ;)

Also... Don't let Turbine distract you with Mabar like a baby with a silver rattle. It's much more fun to stand on a bridge and watch Memnir the Dancing Bear!

Ungood
10-24-2013, 12:09 PM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/24/the-think-tank-would-you-participate-in-an-in-game-protest/ - not directly about the sit-in, but inspired by it and it's good, that the discussion about it goes on.

I must say, I think everyone there had their good points, and I would wager they cover most of, if not all, of the gamer population in regards to this.

What stood out to me most, as I am feeling the same way right now.


In-game protests don't work, but they're a sign that other methods have failed. It's a pretty good sign that it's time to jump ship because if the devs were willing to listen to feedback, they would have long before you guys logged in to whine and take screenshots.

This I think is what is hitting home to me most. I never plan to "protest" again for a game, when things have gone to that point, they really have gone too far.

Lanhelin
10-24-2013, 12:11 PM
The bridge sit-in on Wayfinder now lasts more than 132 hours, the three Marketplace Instances are still open.


updated Occupy Stormwind Press Review (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142323&viewfull=1#post5142323)
Screenshot Collection (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142509&viewfull=1#post5142509)


Kudos (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428642-Time-to-say-quot-thank-you!-quot-to-all-that-support-Occupy-Stormreach) to the protesters :)

Edrogar
10-24-2013, 12:16 PM
This is a peaceful protest, not a riot. We want to make a point, not to cause damage. We also do not want to repeat the unfortunate experience of SWG. Wayfinder was picked for a reason.

DDO community by and large consists of mature (if not in age then in attitude), level-headed players, who at this point simply want to force the devs into an open, transparent dialogue after being ignored quite long enough. I'm positive that if lasting damage was the point, it could be achieved much quicker and much easier.

But this is not a prank. This is not an attack. This is a statement.

I understand that, however it's not going to work. The only way Turbine will sit up and listen is if we are making things dificult for them, if we're not then it's just business as usual, they won't even notice. I'm not condoning crashing the server, but just stressing it a little to get their attention.

Dandonk
10-24-2013, 12:18 PM
I'm impressed with how many people are still turning out every day - awesome crowd!

ReaperAlexEU
10-24-2013, 12:21 PM
I'm impressed with how many people are still turning out every day - awesome crowd!

even more so with marbar active!"

Dandonk
10-24-2013, 12:22 PM
even more so with marbar active!"

Yep! Mabar and +25% xp and people are still there :)

AbyssalMage
10-24-2013, 12:29 PM
I understand that, however it's not going to work. The only way Turbine will sit up and listen is if we are making things dificult for them, if we're not then it's just business as usual, they won't even notice. I'm not condoning crashing the server, but just stressing it a little to get their attention.
Between the forums and in-game demonstrations, I find it hard that they have not taken notice. Will it make them change their gaming philosophy, it is too soon to judge. And at the core of this, its about the philosophy that the developers have taken.

Lanhelin
10-24-2013, 12:30 PM
I never plan to "protest" again for a game, when things have gone to that point, they really have gone too far.

There's one comment, that impressed me:



I"m not going to comment on whether they're worth actually doing, but I'm really going to question all of the people flat out saying they "don't work." How do player's ingame actions not influence dev decisions? If a certain class is way overplayed or underplayed, isn't that going to warrant a look into why that is? If a new dungeon or area comes out and players, for whatever reason, aren't running it, are the devs going to go "well, they're ingame either way so I guess it doesn't matter"?

If this were about any other topic, most people would readily agree that player ingame actions shape dev decisions. But now apparently I'm expected to buy that it doesn't matter when players choose to drop whatever normal ingame activities they typically do (which, depending on the size of the server, can have a noticeable impact on group availability), gather in one place, and talk about how terrible "insert_thing" is and how this is happening entirely because of "insert_thing." And, in the case of DDO, this happens for multiple days in a row. WHILE people are talking about how they're canceling subscriptions and vowing to stop spending money in cash shops (turns out that logging into a game to yell about things you don't like and "voting with your wallet" aren't mutually exclusive things). Apparently this will never have any affect on the devs.

Seems a lot like a few months ago when everyone was mocking all of those video game related petitions that were popping up and saying they don't do anything. Except for the times when they do, or when developers/publishers came out and explicitly said they pay attention to that sort of thing. Apparently the idea that content providers pay attention to people saying they will pay money for "insert_form_of_content" is super controversial.
Source: http://fyre.it/6wVOm2.4

Our sit-in does have an impact on Turbine, though they didn't acknowledge it yet (but they could, if they use this as an opportunity to show that it's not only cancelled subscriptions or players quitting what matters to them to think about player's concerns, especially concerns of players that do not write English that good to state their opinion on Lama forums). But the international press headlines that the least Dev posts were a direct reaction to the sit-in - and Turbine didn't deny it yet. They act like we protesters do :D

AbyssalMage
10-24-2013, 12:33 PM
I understand that, however it's not going to work. The only way Turbine will sit up and listen is if we are making things dificult for them, if we're not then it's just business as usual, they won't even notice. I'm not condoning crashing the server, but just stressing it a little to get their attention.
Those people who live on the East Coast could also make it harder for them. Plastering posters in the surrounding neighborhood of Boston about the changes would definitely make them take notice as well as those who live near WB. I'm sure there has to be a few individuals that live near these two corporate headquarters. May even give it some local/national news :)

Qhualor
10-24-2013, 12:46 PM
I had planned on doing Mabar for the +5 tomes, but with no confirmation on bind status or requirement to run sagas for hearts yet, temptation will not win out. I move off the bridge when there is more confirmation and last night I told everyone on the bridge I would be last one standing if need be. I think its great people are still joining and last I looked last night, there were probably 30 people on the bridge and probably another 30 that had logged off in the past 24 hours.

ReaperAlexEU
10-24-2013, 12:53 PM
I had planned on doing Mabar for the +5 tomes, but with no confirmation on bind status or requirement to run sagas for hearts yet, temptation will not win out. I move off the bridge when there is more confirmation and last night I told everyone on the bridge I would be last one standing if need be. I think its great people are still joining and last I looked last night, there were probably 30 people on the bridge and probably another 30 that had logged off in the past 24 hours.

how are the numbers at the moment compared with yesterday at the same time? of course mabar, especially with the +5 tomes will draw a lot of protesters away, but i am curious to know how much of an effect it has had

Chauncey1
10-24-2013, 01:03 PM
I understand that, however it's not going to work. The only way Turbine will sit up and listen is if we are making things dificult for them, if we're not then it's just business as usual, they won't even notice. I'm not condoning crashing the server, but just stressing it a little to get their attention.

I disagree.
It's already showing signs of working. At least 2 devs I have seen say as much in the forums. They see us. They know we're upset.

Lanhelin
10-24-2013, 01:19 PM
how are the numbers at the moment compared with yesterday at the same time? of course mabar, especially with the +5 tomes will draw a lot of protesters away, but i am curious to know how much of an effect it has had

Pretty much the same as yesterday. Average free time for DDO in North/South America starts in about 3 hours, then the numbers will increase again for about 3 hours and go down again when Europe goes to bed.

Qhualor
10-24-2013, 01:39 PM
I had planned on doing Mabar for the +5 tomes, but with no confirmation on bind status or requirement to run sagas for hearts yet, temptation will not win out. I move off the bridge when there is more confirmation and last night I told everyone on the bridge I would be last one standing if need be. I think its great people are still joining and last I looked last night, there were probably 30 people on the bridge and probably another 30 that had logged off in the past 24 hours.

I won't know for another 3 or 4 hours when I get home from work. My character is still logged in though, unless I DC'd. I'm expecting less people with Mabar here, but I am still surprised there are still as many people protesting after 6 days.

RedOrm
10-24-2013, 03:11 PM
From the Lama thread:

Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

* Binding of Commendations of Valor
* Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
* Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
* Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
* Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
* Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
* Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
* What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.


I think we're having an effect :)

Greetz,
Red Orm

Lanhelin
10-24-2013, 05:51 PM
I think we're having an effect :)

Yes, I think this too. Despite it nearly took 6 days to get a comment like this one, I'm confident enough that it'll turn in a good direction now. I guess no one thought, that we would keep the occupy up in a row this long (atm 137:50 hours). But it was a need. I want to say thank you, so dedicated to all players who joined the protest and still are on the bridge as well as to the Turbine staff here's my leaving present :)


http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/640600/original.JPG?1382649216

Qhualor
10-24-2013, 05:55 PM
all im waiting for is confirmation and either way I will leave the bridge. I feel like we are very close to an agreement that the masses can get on board with. im staying on the bridge for the time being and it looks like ill be missing out on the xp boost and Mabar at least through the weekend. after everything else ive put up with in this game in over 4 years of playing, its basically 1 thing that decides if I continue playing or not.

IronClan
10-24-2013, 07:26 PM
rofl


Did you actually obtain that permit legally, or did you print off some copies using the dupe-o-matic 5000? :p

Glad some of you got the joke, For those that didn't if you look you'll find my character "Inspiredby Mrrobo" in the occupy guild list and on the bridge when I can stay online :) I am not against the cause safe to say. I was just trying for some levity, If the joke didn't do it for you, I apologize sincerely, and will work on my material.

For the other guy that specializes in white knighthood; apparently doesn't get Jokes, and likes to stalk me around in unrelated threads taking unrelated pot shots, perhaps because his feelings are hurt over losing so many arguments so badly: hey you totally don't make yourself look silly or desperate to "get me back" when you do that so please keep it going ;)

Ungood
10-24-2013, 07:32 PM
Glad some of you got the joke, For those that didn't if you look you'll find my character "Inspiredby Mrrobo" in the occupy guild list and on the bridge when I can stay online :) I am not against the cause safe to say. If the joke didn't do it for you, I apologize sincerely.

I found it in poor taste to interrupt this endeavor and what the people are trying to accomplish by dragging in that unrelated drama into it. There were enough topics for you to vent in, you really did not need to infect this one, in that venture, I guess I missed the humor, but, I simply did not find it funny.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-angry035.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Marcus-Hawkeye
10-24-2013, 08:07 PM
No, it is absolutely 100% true. There have been multiple people banned in relation to occupy stormreach and NOTHING to do with dupeploition.

I they were using the LFM system to post about Occupy, then I could see them getting banned for that. My understanding there is a rule somewhere that it is explicitly for gathering groups to do something. While it's arguable that advertising occupy is exactly that, I could see how it may fall into "not being allowed".

That being said, unless someone can illustrate proof of the claim, I won't put any stock into it. I've been sitting on the bridge as often as I can since it started and I've been chatting in guild and in general chat about it all and they've never said anything to me. Remember, just because you read it on the intarwebs doesn't make it true.

Ungood
10-24-2013, 08:32 PM
I scratch my head a bit about his protesting about a game is not on................well people are protesting about a video game *in* a video game its not like they are all camped outside turbines offices or anything or harassing people outside the game, and they are not even really harassing people inside it. I don't really see why he should really care. So outside of getting a kick out of winding people up..................I don't know, maybe hes so in love with turbine that anything negative about it gets his panties in a twist? Though this sort of thing isn't always bad, it can be good for the company showing them how some of their customers feel about things in game, so might lead them to making better decisions and plans for the future who knows?

He has expressed endearment towards their staff, and mentions having met them personally, there is perhaps the fact that he is emotionally invested in the feelings of the people at Turbine and wants to protect them from something, however, to block out reality does not do any favors to anyone, like the parent that tries to hide their child from the evils of the world, ultimately hides the world from their child.

TekkenDevil
10-24-2013, 09:34 PM
Turbine wants to eliminate the TR-ing trend in favor of returning gameplay to first life toons, thus TR-ing is more difficult.
Stop crying and roll a new alt instead.

TR's have long been hurting the PuG scene with their zergy, "omnipotent builds only instead of teamwork" mentality and this is a positive step forward that also nets Turbine more money off of the elitist TR mustard race who live in the past.

Dandonk
10-25-2013, 05:04 AM
Turbine wants to eliminate the TR-ing trend in favor of returning gameplay to first life toons, thus TR-ing is more difficult.
Stop crying and roll a new alt instead.

TR's have long been hurting the PuG scene with their zergy, "omnipotent builds only instead of teamwork" mentality and this is a positive step forward that also nets Turbine more money off of the elitist TR mustard race who live in the past.

I already have 34 characters, thanks. Don't really feel like rolling another one just because you think so.

ReaperAlexEU
10-25-2013, 10:58 AM
Turbine wants to eliminate the TR-ing trend in favor of returning gameplay to first life toons, thus TR-ing is more difficult.
Stop crying and roll a new alt instead.

TR's have long been hurting the PuG scene with their zergy, "omnipotent builds only instead of teamwork" mentality and this is a positive step forward that also nets Turbine more money off of the elitist TR mustard race who live in the past.

aaaand another one who completely missed the fact that turbine is working their nuts/berries/iron defenders off to find a solution that will keep the TR playerbase happy.

turbine are not going to punish the TR crowd for playing it their way, they are busy trying to find a way to keep the TR crowd happy

glin is on twitter going on about a paradigm shift and how they got it wrong. last time he mentioned paradigm shift was when they ditched the idea to nuke everyones epic destinies. so yeah, that kinda says to me that they have heard the protest, both forum and in game (seriously, great effort on both parts and check out the forum thread, tons upon tons of constructive feedback there with minimal ranting)

so you can sit there looking smug all you like, but it will soon fade.

that does not invalidate your point about zerging with newbies in tow. it's a point that is close to my heart as after 3 runs through the waterworks playing follow the blue dots i still had no idea where i was until i soloed it. so i remember when i was a newbie playing follow the dots and i do try to slow down when i know there is a newbie with me. sometimes if a newbie joins my group first i might even take down the LFM so we can duo at a slower pace allowing them to explore the quest properly.

Dandonk
10-26-2013, 03:31 AM
Well, with the "paradigm shift" promised to come, I will now wait and see before I protest more.

Lanhelin
11-15-2015, 03:01 PM
vote4 Hall of Fame Thread. (I can't believe it isn't there already)

Why?

"bridge event" became a dictum in DDO forum speech.

and there are more reasons:

* The community united
* the games press reacted and published about it
* Devs took screenshots and notice
* Wayfinder got 3 Market instances
* sit-in was successful

It's a shame to bury this thread. So I necromance it and say: Better conserve it in the hall of Fame ... or not?

bartharok
11-15-2015, 06:25 PM
vote4 Hall of Fame Thread. (I can't believe it isn't there already)

Why?

"bridge event" became a dictum in DDO forum speech.

and there are more reasons:

* The community united
* the games press reacted and published about it
* Devs took screenshots and notice
* Wayfinder got 3 Market instances
* sit-in was successful

It's a shame to bury this thread. So I necromance it and say: Better conserve it in the hall of Fame ... or not?

The thread was nothing special, it was the action that people took that actually mattered.

Paleus
11-16-2015, 07:37 AM
The thread was nothing special, it was the action that people took that actually mattered.

My thought as well. If an outside observer can't look at the first page and know exactly what this was about, then the thread isn't special enough to warrant the nomination. Most outside observers likely wont read through the thread to work it out. Sorry, this isn't a knock on the event itself, there may be other threads the necro-OP could find that better capture the event.

kismetbuy
11-16-2015, 07:43 PM
(DPLM) DDO Players Lives Matter.

Hobgoblin
11-16-2015, 09:01 PM
(DPLM) DDO Players Lives Matter.

not cool

too soon.

skaught78
11-16-2015, 09:35 PM
I can't even remember what we were protesting...

SiliconScout
11-16-2015, 10:12 PM
I can't even remember what we were protesting...
Basically they were going to change the ability to earn any hearts in game and force all hearts to be purchased through the store if I recall properly.

bartharok
11-17-2015, 04:09 AM
Basically they were going to change the ability to earn any hearts in game and force all hearts to be purchased through the store if I recall properly.

Not quite. But they were going to make getting hearts a lot harder.

Nestroy
11-17-2015, 06:44 AM
Not quite. But they were going to make getting hearts a lot harder.

The initial decission was to make hearts only to be bought in the shop. Then the storm began to brew in the forums and Occupy Bridge started. And then we finally got the solution of today where we may farm for both the iconic and epic hearts. So basically, w/o the Occupy Bridge movement and the forum ****storm we would as of today have a buy-only eTR and iTR system. What you mention is already a step in between where after the storm started, they 1st time told us that they will make heart seeds farmable, but the initial costs where just too high.

sdrocky
11-25-2017, 01:44 AM
If you think standing in wayfinder is going to make a difference, time to get real.

It did. be no more tokens if not for this event. we all owe thanks to the person that started it. Ergmiester.

C-Dog
11-25-2017, 01:05 PM
2 year old Necro - but not an uninteresting one.

sdrocky
12-11-2017, 06:03 AM
2 year old Necro - but not an uninteresting one.

hall of fame.

Grandern_Marn
12-11-2017, 06:41 AM
Yes, I think this too. Despite it nearly took 6 days to get a comment like this one, I'm confident enough that it'll turn in a good direction now. I guess no one thought, that we would keep the occupy up in a row this long (atm 137:50 hours). But it was a need. I want to say thank you, so dedicated to all players who joined the protest and still are on the bridge as well as to the Turbine staff here's my leaving present :)


http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/640600/original.JPG?1382649216




Documented community activity? I can get with that.

TDarkchylde
12-11-2017, 11:56 AM
Ah, good memories.

This thread definitely needs to be put in the Hall of Fame.

sdrocky
02-25-2018, 06:01 AM
You guys had your fun, time to go home.

we won. u still get tokens. go figure

sdrocky
02-25-2018, 06:02 AM
Ah, good memories.

This thread definitely needs to be put in the Hall of Fame.

agreed.

was a moment of glory. players council came out of this i believe.

sdrocky
11-07-2019, 01:33 AM
Except that you are not factoring in how many players those other games have paying "something" and how many this one has. The vast majority of the costs for an MMO are static, the same regardless of whether they have 10 playing customers or 10 million. DDO seems to be a lot closer to the former than the latter.

Also, no store consumables and certainly no store cosmetics, are needed to play and that content is buy once and done. It also costs considerately less than that in my experience. Between first time server points and re-earning points in every character slot every TR or re-roll. New favor available every time new content is had. Only those who want to put no effort into the system are paying what you say. That's not even taking into consideration that not many would even want to have all of it.

Then take into account that TRing, in itself, isn't necessary to play and I don't see why so many think it's something they have some sort of right to do easily for free. What next, free server transfers or name changes?

to late. we fixed it. get over yourself troll. the devs listened to the players. and now the game is rocking since ssg took over. {expletives deleted, there is a lot}

sdrocky
11-07-2019, 01:36 AM
Ah, good memories.

This thread definitely needs to be put in the Hall of Fame.

we won. thanks for coming along. amazing what can happen when the little guy's pull together.
thankyou very much indeed. we still can go talk to lahir.

sdrocky
11-07-2019, 01:37 AM
i love revisiting this post. def should be in hall of fame.

LucasMacKinnon
11-09-2019, 05:24 PM
I remember Occupy wayfinder. I did have a toon on it too. that was about 3 years after I started playing ddo

sdrocky
12-18-2019, 12:49 AM
You guys had your fun, time to go home.

we won. bet you love the fact u can still earn HTR hearts and RTR hearts from 12 tokens. just garn. and if you dont know what garn means. go google that ****. i was 7th toon on the bridge. GARN GET is mayby more descriptive.
we won. u can still earn hearts with tokens.

oh. and as a btw. Keep on the borderlands. my fault. they do listen. go look up my posts. here is a link to help those search dysfunctional humans. Some devs listen.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/492393-New-Starter-Area

sdrocky
12-18-2019, 12:54 AM
we won. bet you love the fact u can still earn HTR hearts and RTR hearts from 12 tokens. just garn. and if you dont know what garn means. go google that ****. i was 7th toon on the bridge. GARN GET is mayby more descriptive.
we won. u can still earn hearts with tokens.

oh. and as a btw. Keep on the borderlands. my fault. they do listen. go look up my posts. here is a link to help those search dysfunctional humans. Some devs listen.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/492393-New-Starter-Area

oh. and garn get ends with effed.

kanordog
12-21-2019, 09:01 AM
Hah, I remember this, I sill have my toon on Wayfinder in the protest guild
one of the best memories I have about this game.

sdrocky
01-05-2020, 08:56 AM
Hah, I remember this, I sill have my toon on Wayfinder in the protest guild
one of the best memories I have about this game.

Was fun times. Also proves that we do get heard. Glad u came along. We still have Lahir and tokens.