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Flavilandile
10-21-2013, 05:31 AM
Remember : Don't Feed the Trolls ( we all know who they are in that thread )

Oh and press news in the morning :

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/20/dungeons-and-dragons-online-players-protest-true-heart-changes/

I expect Full Spin Damage Control Posts to appear during the afternoon ( for me ).

Dandonk
10-21-2013, 05:33 AM
Remember : Don't Feed the Trolls ( we all know who they are in that thread )

Oh and press news in the morning :

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/20/dungeons-and-dragons-online-players-protest-true-heart-changes/

I expect Full Spin Damage Control Posts to appear during the afternoon ( for me ).

I look forward to seeing the replies. Should be... interesting to see :)

sdrocky
10-21-2013, 05:35 AM
Generally disruptive behavior, forums and in-game.

Oh. so now sitting around doing nothing and having an opinion and voicing it is "Generally disruptive behavior, forums and in-game." wonder what they would call me running around with a machete chopping off ppls heads. oh wait. i know PVP.

EndofDDOdays
10-21-2013, 05:39 AM
So are you the founder and leader of this movement?

no he isn't, we are all unified and you are http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ddo+troll&id=C022C92B5C7328CFA53EAAF2814E46BEE15FC858&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=C022C92B5C7328CFA53EAAF2814E46BEE15FC858&selectedIndex=0

or as we like to call them a Pauly D (since this pic definitely has a Pauly D hair cut and tan )

EndofDDOdays
10-21-2013, 05:47 AM
look at these 2 see any similarities? thats a troll dude !
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pauly+d&qpvt=pauly+d&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=752559291CC32F6C8CA5602A042E1FB37220D900&selectedIndex=16

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ddo+troll&qpvt=ddo+troll&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=C022C92B5C7328CFA53EAAF2814E46BEE15FC858&selectedIndex=13

same tan / same hair its amazing!!

Lanhelin
10-21-2013, 06:24 AM
The occupy now lasts more than 54 hours and is still growing.

Frontwards
http://s14.directupload.net/images/131021/temp/iwp44fty.jpg (http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/3417/iwp44fty_jpg.htm)

Backwards
http://s7.directupload.net/images/131021/temp/zujhwteq.jpg (http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/3417/zujhwteq_jpg.htm)

Anric
10-21-2013, 07:04 AM
Just wanted to get word out there that you need to be careful advertising occupy in game.

Rumor is there are bans, possibly perma-bans being handed out for advertising the movement in the Marketplace.

Figured we should make sure that this gets out. Having said that this is not firsthand knowledge, it's second hand as is I heard if from someone who says they knew someone.

Honestly I would NOT be all that surprised to hear that they were using the Trade channel or something and that was violating the terms of service, and it could easily be BS but on the off chance it's true I figured a heads up was worth it.

All I am gonna say is, it is no rumor and leave it at that.

Khalesh
10-21-2013, 07:05 AM
Over 15'000 views and increasing

Power to the People!!

Khalesh
10-21-2013, 07:06 AM
All I am gonna say is, it is no rumor and leave it at that.

And wow - if people get banned for this please someone let me know and I will cancel my sub in protest of you being banned

NaturalHazard
10-21-2013, 07:13 AM
It's better not to feed the trolls.

All you guys on the marketplace bridge in wayfinder should look under it............there you will find uncle blue lol.

Qhualor
10-21-2013, 07:17 AM
Dungeons and Dragons Online
TURBINE, INC.
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ONLINE®
Code of Conduct

The Code of Conduct (COC) that governs player behavior while playing Dungeons&Dragons® Online and participating on the Dungeons&Dragons Online Website.

The Code of Conduct is designed to make everyone's game experience as enjoyable as possible. Failure to follow the Code of Conduct may result in the suspension or termination of your Dungeons&Dragons Online account without refund.

While participating in Dungeons&Dragons Online, you must respect the rights of others to play and enjoy the game world as intended by Turbine, Inc.

While playing the game or participating in the Dungeons&Dragons Online service, you may not exhibit or partake in generally disruptive behavior causing grief or alarm to other players or degrade the Dungeons&Dragons Online service performance or other players' client software (for example, deliberately using game bugs or loopholes to disrupt the game).

You may not spam or flood with multiple posts the game chat or the official Web features.












My bad, not the EULA, but the CoC.
Relevant Citations.

let them ban me. im already not playing by being "disruptive" on a bridge trying to make a difference in the game by letting the devs know I don't agree with the TR change. it would be easier to just cancel VIP and walk away. LOL now people actually care how I spend my time in game by chatting with fellow protestors peacefully and standing around on the least populated server.

Ungood
10-21-2013, 07:20 AM
Generally disruptive behavior, forums and in-game.

The person here being disruptive in this exchange, is you.

So if you cared about the CoC, you would ban yourself and delete your account out of shame, but you don't, because you don't care about the CoC, no surprise there.

Superhik
10-21-2013, 07:36 AM
Just wanted to get word out there that you need to be careful advertising occupy in game.

Rumor is there are bans, possibly perma-bans being handed out for advertising the movement in the Marketplace.

Figured we should make sure that this gets out. Having said that this is not firsthand knowledge, it's second hand as is I heard if from someone who says they knew someone.

Honestly I would NOT be all that surprised to hear that they were using the Trade channel or something and that was violating the terms of service, and it could easily be BS but on the off chance it's true I figured a heads up was worth it.


Oh, so it's a bannable offense to log into one of their servers and sit or stand or dance at one of the public places they've created for players with intention for it to serve as a hub where players can sit and stand and dance.
Use of word occupy is perma ban worthy? They where the first that started using military terminology, am sure it's within their liberty according to the terms of service and CoC to be deploying with extreme prejudice towards the users of their product.
If they ban any player for logging to this server cause of this, it will just further their censoring any negative opinions in a stance very similar to totalitarian one.
If they ban anyone for taking part in this peaceful, silent protest, they'll just be digging an even bigger grave for themselves, very same grave they're already one foot in solely based on their development decisions.

To all the people there, Good show.

Ungood
10-21-2013, 07:44 AM
Well last night was a rough night for me, I got off work, logged in again, and watched my toon Ungood, stand on a bridge. What's hard here is that I wanted to play, I mean, I wanted to just make an alt account, maybe give it some name fitting of the protest, and then play my main a bit.

But, I realized that if I did that, it would defeat the whole point of showing Turbine that I don't need to play this game, the idea of not-playing as a sign of my determination and solidarity. So yah, last night sucked for me, it was the second day that I had full access to the game, I even logged in, and just stood there, not paying.

So my mind started to ask questions about this whole situation, and a reoccurring theme started to play and I kept falling back on the same consideration: Why do things always have to come to this point.

Why do we have to outrage at Turbine, why are they not at the forefront of building their game to be fun. Why is there so much on the table about how to devalue the game to us as opposed to them putting on the forefront of their development how to make the game more enticing, fun and engaging.

When players are enjoying your product, they will spend more on it, that is the truth of things. So, I ask why I am I still playing a game where I am now standing on a bridge, because the developers seem intent on depriving me of a fun game.

This has been a very thought provoking "do nothing" event in my game life, and I am glad to be a part of it.

Khalesh
10-21-2013, 07:45 AM
Superhik- looking at your join date and number of posts I think you may fall in a category of player very similar to me

I hardly ever post , except recently but have been here a long time!

I know there are 1'000s of players who never bother posting and just keep their heads down and play the game they love

However this is a cause for great concern to our community and everyone should post about it!

Add your voices now (in game if you can, forums if you cannot)

Chai
10-21-2013, 07:56 AM
Generally disruptive behavior, forums and in-game.

Nope. Customers (the most important people in any business equation) are providing feedback on what they want out of the product =/= being disruptive.

In game, when someone logs in they are in market2. The protest is in market1. Not disruptive.

Im actually glad there are people who disagree with it and attempt to troll the protesters - as that simply gets it noticed even more, which is exactly what is needed.

Dandonk
10-21-2013, 08:01 AM
205 accounts now :) Gogo Bridge!

Khalesh
10-21-2013, 08:04 AM
205 accounts now :) Gogo Bridge!

Man I get off work in 3 hours time - if this is still going then im so rolling a toon on Wayfinder and joining the protest!

Dandonk
10-21-2013, 08:06 AM
Man I get off work in 3 hours time - if this is still going then im so rolling a toon on Wayfinder and joining the protest!

You, and everyone else, is more than welcome :) Let's see if we can get the guild to 300 accounts by the end of the day!

ushram
10-21-2013, 08:14 AM
Superhik- looking at your join date and number of posts I think you may fall in a category of player very similar to me

I hardly ever post , except recently but have been here a long time!

I know there are 1'000s of players who never bother posting and just keep their heads down and play the game they love

However this is a cause for great concern to our community and everyone should post about it!

Add your voices now (in game if you can, forums if you cannot)

yup, like me, I was here at launch. Also a VIP for a lonnnng time.

The people sailing this ship have been headed towards troubled waters for some time now. This will be my breaking point if this goes live, even with reduced saga completions.

I def support the Bridge Burners. I don't feel like retiring my toon to hang out in a bar.

sdrocky
10-21-2013, 08:15 AM
Come one come all. Join the voice of the peaceful mass's.

twigzz
10-21-2013, 08:19 AM
http://mmofallout.com/player-protest-true-heart-update-in-ddo/

Ausdoerrt
10-21-2013, 08:19 AM
We got another media feature: http://mmofallout.com/player-protest-true-heart-update-in-ddo/

Cautious but informative and unbiased.


P.S. Dang, ninja'd :)

Khalesh
10-21-2013, 08:26 AM
Good stuff on a the press coverage!!!

On a somewhat lighter note - before I join the protest has the bridge been tested for structural integrity?

The marketplace tent has been known to blow up in the past and we don't have any water underneath us there in case of .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WN8RP7Bz6Q

twigzz
10-21-2013, 08:33 AM
http://www.buffed.de/Dungeons-und-Dragons-Online-Dragons-Vault-PC-129040/News/Dungeons-und-Dragons-Online-Spieler-protestieren-gegen-Update-20-1093562/

Silken-Akira
10-21-2013, 08:40 AM
I actually approve of the action. It is indeed on the least crowded server and I am amazed that people care enough to show up to not game.
I won't join however. can bring up the ffort I have to admit to spend time not playing. I just cancelled my VIP and as long it doesn't improve enough I just will do with there is and I have and spend more time on my playstation again.

But great to some voicing going on.

Lanhelin
10-21-2013, 08:56 AM
Some further impressions of the ongoing 56+ hours lasting sit-in: http://hausfeuerfuchs.shivtr.com/gallery_categories/37525

jonqrandom
10-21-2013, 09:16 AM
reading the massively article, i noticed it stated that true hearts would be available from epic sagas, and didn't really put across the scale of the issue, so i sent them the following feedback, and mentioned it in U20KM as well:

First, thanks very much for featuring the protest :)

Second, I'd like to point out a couple of corrections to the article: True Hearts will not be available from the sagas, but from tokens ("Commendations of Valor") available from the sagas, and with the current drop rates, it will take several hundred quests in order to True Reincarnate, instead of around thirty which is the current norm. Newer Reincarnation options will cost even more Commendations. This is the main issue.


The secondary issue, but still a major one for many players, is that the Tokens of the Twelve were bound to the player's account and could be traded between that player's characters. The Commendations of Valor are bound to individual characters and must be farmed on the character that will Reincarnate, forcing the players to run those several hundred quests with the exact same character, over and over again, rather than being able to see the same quests from different roles.


Please let your readers know, however briefly, that these are the issues. Thanks :)
they've edited the article (http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/20/dungeons-and-dragons-online-players-protest-true-heart-changes/), and the relevant part now reads:

The hearts, available via trade-ins of Tokens of the Twelve earned by dungeon running and other tasks, will require several times more tokens from epic-level sagas after DDO Update 20 goes live. In addition to the increase, the tokens are now character-bound, instead of account-bound, requiring even more farming.
so yeah, go massively! :D send some love (http://massively.joystiq.com/contact/tips/) :)

Arkadios
10-21-2013, 09:24 AM
...

I def support the Bridge Burners. I don't feel like retiring my toon to hang out in a bar.

Please don't tell me I was the only one to get this reference? Oh and +1 to you :P.

Maybe not, seems I've spread to much rep in the last 24 hours.

Memnir
10-21-2013, 09:38 AM
Beautiful morning in Stormreach to join the Bridge.


http://i.imgur.com/IqLqPnY.jpg


As wonderful as it was to see more folks on the Bridge last night when I went to bed, it was even more so waking up to even more. :)
I've always said that DDO had a fantastic community, and this is proving it hands-down.

FAQ
10-21-2013, 09:44 AM
Awesome protest! I'll make sure to log in after work. Keep up the great work :)

Dandonk
10-21-2013, 09:45 AM
I'll be afk a bit in there, keep up the spirits everyone! :)

Qhualor
10-21-2013, 09:46 AM
I think I need to sit in a different spot on the bridge. Saynoto keeps getting cut out of photo ops lol.

Great coverage and attention so far and more people keep joining the guild. Some may not be to stay logged on 24 hours a day, but showing support for a good cause regardless.

atkbeast
10-21-2013, 09:57 AM
Beautiful morning in Stormreach to join the Bridge.


http://i.imgur.com/IqLqPnY.jpg


As wonderful as it was to see more folks on the Bridge last night when I went to bed, it was even more so waking up to even more. :)
I've always said that DDO had a fantastic community, and this is proving it hands-down.

At least you didn't make the pic only to see your pet did. ;)

Aaxeyu
10-21-2013, 10:02 AM
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w360/itsthejake/ScreenShot00049_zps870eb584.jpg

Quite a few on now!

commando4290
10-21-2013, 10:04 AM
yes, yes, yes

Khalesh
10-21-2013, 10:07 AM
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w360/itsthejake/ScreenShot00049_zps870eb584.jpg

Quite a few on now!

Now if we could all log onto Wayfinder and clog up the whole of that screen with players

I mean have people sitting on every roof top in sight, the younger players hanging of the walls, halflings tucked into every nook and cranny

The vendors in the tent running for dear life!

Cmon folks keep this going :) Ill be there in a couple :)

Ausdoerrt
10-21-2013, 10:08 AM
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w360/itsthejake/ScreenShot00049_zps870eb584.jpg

Quite a few on now!

Holy Owlbear Batman! That's a lot!

Loromir
10-21-2013, 10:12 AM
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w360/itsthejake/ScreenShot00049_zps870eb584.jpg

Quite a few on now!


Impressive.

Would love to see some server stats....before 10/19 and after 10/19

Kalimah
10-21-2013, 10:12 AM
Hah to the Bridge Burner's Malazan ref :D

atkbeast
10-21-2013, 10:17 AM
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w360/itsthejake/ScreenShot00049_zps870eb584.jpg



That's just a small 80-man raid party.

sdrocky
10-21-2013, 10:31 AM
That's just a small 80-man raid party.

No. Bridge Brawl.

drausk
10-21-2013, 10:41 AM
We broke the marketplace bridge. No one is able to move -_- Glad to see so many come out and show support. Cheers!

atkbeast
10-21-2013, 10:43 AM
We broke the marketplace bridge. No one is able to move -_- Glad to see so many come out and show support. Cheers!

Lag meet Wayfinder.

Wayfinder meet lag.

HAL
10-21-2013, 10:49 AM
Well last night was a rough night for me, I got off work, logged in again, and watched my toon Ungood, stand on a bridge. What's hard here is that I wanted to play, I mean, I wanted to just make an alt account, maybe give it some name fitting of the protest, and then play my main a bit.

But, I realized that if I did that, it would defeat the whole point of showing Turbine that I don't need to play this game, the idea of not-playing as a sign of my determination and solidarity. So yah, last night sucked for me, it was the second day that I had full access to the game, I even logged in, and just stood there, not paying.

So my mind started to ask questions about this whole situation, and a reoccurring theme started to play and I kept falling back on the same consideration: Why do things always have to come to this point.

Why do we have to outrage at Turbine, why are they not at the forefront of building their game to be fun. Why is there so much on the table about how to devalue the game to us as opposed to them putting on the forefront of their development how to make the game more enticing, fun and engaging.

When players are enjoying your product, they will spend more on it, that is the truth of things. So, I ask why I am I still playing a game where I am now standing on a bridge, because the developers seem intent on depriving me of a fun game.

This has been a very thought provoking "do nothing" event in my game life, and I am glad to be a part of it.

Awesome post, I have to agree.

commando4290
10-21-2013, 10:54 AM
They are trying to crash the server, me thinks.

HAL
10-21-2013, 10:58 AM
They are trying to crash the server, me thinks.

What are you talking about? I just logged into Wayfinder.

Arkadios
10-21-2013, 10:59 AM
Yeah I'm surprised it crashed, seeing as it's general populance is lower than the others it should've taken more to reach capacity (I mean part of the reason we chose wayfinder was so it wouldn't do this).

sdrocky
10-21-2013, 11:01 AM
They are trying to crash the server, me thinks.

Um. have you tried logging into Wayfinder. Not crashed. The instance is as laggy as all hell though. Slid down the bridge on my backside trying to get to stand up and get to the bank.

commando4290
10-21-2013, 11:02 AM
Um. have you tried logging into Wayfinder. Not crashed. The instance is as laggy as all hell though. Slid down the bridge on my backside trying to get to stand up and get to the bank.



Been sitting here starring at the load screen for 7 minutes lol... :) hopefully it will let me in.

Darkrok
10-21-2013, 11:03 AM
Why do we have to outrage at Turbine, why are they not at the forefront of building their game to be fun. Why is there so much on the table about how to devalue the game to us as opposed to them putting on the forefront of their development how to make the game more enticing, fun and engaging.

When players are enjoying your product, they will spend more on it, that is the truth of things. So, I ask why I am I still playing a game where I am now standing on a bridge, because the developers seem intent on depriving me of a fun game.

That's what I was thinking last week. Why do we as customers have to spend so much time and energy lobbying the game developer to get them to avoid ruining their own game? I play Wizard101 and Pirate101 with my kids. It's exceedingly rare for their developer (Kings Isle) to do something that doesn't thrill their customers and there's almost no lobbying to get that to happen. When they do make a change that disappoints someone it never gets to the pitchfork level - they're responsive enough they're in the forefront fixing it. I've been involved with conference calls where they brought together some players to discuss what they'd like to see in the game. Not on a forum...an actual phone call.

Now granted...Kings Isle have grown both of their games far beyond where DDO could ever get - one company's products have mass appeal to kids and the other is a niche game for PnP enthusiasts - but Kings Isle didn't have the numbers they do now when they set up that conference call. They were probably around the same size as Turbine at the time. Since then Kings Isle has grown by ridiculous amounts and Turbine...well, they're still in business. It goes to show that in any business when you make your customers feel like they're the top priority you do well. When you make your customers feel that you view them as an adversary...not so much.

sdrocky
10-21-2013, 11:11 AM
we have a dev response.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428231-New-way-to-acquire-the-new-Hearts-of-Wood-TR-Hearts-of-Wood-no-longer-avaible-at-12/page25#post5141073

jonqrandom
10-21-2013, 11:14 AM
They are trying to crash the server, me thinks.
not having a dig, but just want to point out that crashing wayfinder would be totally counter-productive, and not in the least what i, or probably anybody else, wants.

Ytteri
10-21-2013, 11:16 AM
we have a dev response.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428231-New-way-to-acquire-the-new-Hearts-of-Wood-TR-Hearts-of-Wood-no-longer-avaible-at-12/page25#post5141073


OK, so should the occupiers disperse now? I feel like we ought to give them a chance and see what they've come up with.

twigzz
10-21-2013, 11:18 AM
not having a dig, but just want to point out that crashing wayfinder would be totally counter-productive, and not in the least what i, or probably anybody else, wants.

It's instance1 thats laggy as all hell but instance2 it smooth. It wont load anyone into instance1 because its too full. So everyone else should be find.

Cauthey_No_CCInfo
10-21-2013, 11:19 AM
we have a dev response.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428231-New-way-to-acquire-the-new-Hearts-of-Wood-TR-Hearts-of-Wood-no-longer-avaible-at-12/page25#post5141073

She slipped that so that it wouldn't be Dev Tracker tracked. :(

Ytteri
10-21-2013, 11:20 AM
She slipped that so that it wouldn't be Dev Tracker tracked. :(

It's posted in lammania, so it's in the lammania dev tracker.

RedOrm
10-21-2013, 11:22 AM
OK, so should the occupiers disperse now? I feel like we ought to give them a chance and see what they've come up with.

I'm all for patiently waiting what they'll come up with. On the bridge, in the market.
I can quite understand they may need a few hours (or more) to come up with something, but see no need to disperse. YMMV of course.

Greetz,
Red Orm

atkbeast
10-21-2013, 11:22 AM
She slipped that so that it wouldn't be Dev Tracker tracked. :(

Probably because technically she's not a dev, she's comstomer relatios.

sdrocky
10-21-2013, 11:25 AM
the server isnt crashed. just takes ages to log. i believe were all going to run around a bit and lessen the load on the instance

Lanhelin
10-21-2013, 11:26 AM
Well last night was a rough night for me, I got off work, logged in again, and watched my toon Ungood, stand on a bridge. What's hard here is that I wanted to play, I mean, I wanted to just make an alt account, maybe give it some name fitting of the protest, and then play my main a bit.

But, I realized that if I did that, it would defeat the whole point of showing Turbine that I don't need to play this game, the idea of not-playing as a sign of my determination and solidarity. So yah, last night sucked for me, it was the second day that I had full access to the game, I even logged in, and just stood there, not paying.

So my mind started to ask questions about this whole situation, and a reoccurring theme started to play and I kept falling back on the same consideration: Why do things always have to come to this point.

Why do we have to outrage at Turbine, why are they not at the forefront of building their game to be fun. Why is there so much on the table about how to devalue the game to us as opposed to them putting on the forefront of their development how to make the game more enticing, fun and engaging.

When players are enjoying your product, they will spend more on it, that is the truth of things. So, I ask why I am I still playing a game where I am now standing on a bridge, because the developers seem intent on depriving me of a fun game.

This has been a very thought provoking "do nothing" event in my game life, and I am glad to be a part of it.

I have to quote this because this is exactly the intention of occupy. In the very difference to eg. a shtstorm or ragestorm the protesters neither insult nor scream nor goad each other nor only drive-by-puke. The sit-in with it's power of doing nothing or "playing not-playing" offers enough time and space to speak with others in an even and peaceful atmosphere. And to let the thoughts grow. The protesters can develop a feeling of constructive companionship and culture but not a bloody murder screaming rage-raid.

At least I am absolutely convinced that this form of protest has a greater long-term effect, and the means remain civilized. This is quite new and uncommon, and thence may also be a reason for those who are the target of the protest to much more likely rage instead of the crowd, because they expect a ragestorm that doesn't come, eventually try to infiltrate incognito to make the protesters do what they "should" (like asking for the not existing leader again and again and so on) or at least to create the public opinion that they behave like everybody knows and would expect (like making the game unplayable for non-protesters or other things like that). :D

IMaraudU
10-21-2013, 11:29 AM
I have to quote this because this is exactly the intention of occupy. In the very difference to eg. a shtstorm or ragestorm the protesters neither insult nor scream nor goad each other nor only drive-by-puke. The sit-in with it's power of doing nothing or "playing not-playing" offers enough time and space to speak with others in an even and peaceful atmosphere. And to let the thoughts grow. The protesters can develop a feeling of constructive companionship and culture but not a bloody murder screaming rage-raid.

At least I am absolutely convinced that this form of protest has a greater long-term effect, and the means remain civilized. This is quite new and uncommon, and thence may also be a reason for those who are the target of the protest to much more likely rage instead of the crowd, because they expect a ragestorm that doesn't come, eventually try to infiltrate incognito to make the protesters do what they "should" (like asking for the not existing leader again and again and so on) or at least to create the public opinion that they behave like everybody knows and would expect (like making the game unplayable for non-protesters or other things like that). :D

This.

Thank You!

Superhik
10-21-2013, 11:34 AM
Aye, Gandhi would be proud.

uncleblue
10-21-2013, 11:37 AM
Aye, Gandhi would be proud.

/facepalm

SO absurd.

RedOrm
10-21-2013, 11:38 AM
Just a heads-up for the people logging in on Wayfinder or already in the market at instance 1: seems the server is getting trouble dealing with so many people. Please move to instance 2 (or 3 when it spawns) so as to keep the lag down? Let's not spoil things for the natives that would like to play :)

Greetz,
Red Orm

thegreatneil
10-21-2013, 11:43 AM
Huh, I had no idea Stormreach had unions.

HAL
10-21-2013, 11:43 AM
You just encourage them...

Darkrok
10-21-2013, 11:47 AM
Huh, I had no idea Stormreach had unions.

Where've you been man? The Kobold Minion Union (http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/Kobold_Minion_Union_Rulebook.png/280px-Kobold_Minion_Union_Rulebook.png) is one of the strongest unions around! No biting, no excuses!

myliftkk_v2
10-21-2013, 11:48 AM
The changes as proposed appears pretty bad imo.

Given the small guild I'm in I don't think any of our members have completed a single Saga yet, I know I haven't. We've all got multiple toons at end game and just keeping track of what Saga quests you need is a flat out PITA. of the highest order. Trying to complete a Saga while also pugging heavily is nearly impossible. If I'm going to concentrate on Sagas, I pretty much have to ignore leading or joining pugs to concentrate on filling the Saga gaps.

I only TR'd one of my toons once (since they were 28pt), but am getting to the point with my other end game first lifers that they'll be completely XP capped everywhere and have to TR at some point or they'll be running for only ridiculously low loot drops. If I've got to run another 100+ Sagas or even 20-30 Sagas to do that, no thanks, it was a good couple of years, but I'll move on to do different things. That's no more leading multiple Dragon runs, no more helping out other pugs just cause I like to pug, no more giving new toons advice on how to be a viable first lifer in end game content. I've never been a token farmer (except for augments when my toons first hit 20 pre-u19), but just got the ones I needed doing whatever was fun and involved other toons on the server at the time. I got incremental, but measurable improvement in my toons playing that way. Take away the improvement where I have to start doing things specific ways to get any further incremental improvement and see ya. That I just bought +5 supreme tomes across my four mains ought to tell Turbine what they're losing when I walk. If I wanted to pay money for something unfun to do, I'd do crossfit.

Wasteland II is going to beta soon, and Torment not long after that, both of which I kicked in for. If Turbine wants to see developers respond to what their gamers want, maybe they should pay attention to their kickstarter feed. I may skip the Wasteland beta just because I don't want to ruin the experience of playing the completed game, but if u20 reams players like the NYPD and certain immigrants, I may just go ahead take off early and let my sub expire.

I have zero issue with people sitting in on Wayfinder. I find it fascinating from a poly-sci perspective and will certainly discuss it w/ my prof. of poly-sci friend at a major U when I see him next.

Dandonk
10-21-2013, 11:51 AM
Just a heads-up for the people logging in on Wayfinder or already in the market at instance 1: seems the server is getting trouble dealing with so many people. Please move to instance 2 (or 3 when it spawns) so as to keep the lag down? Let's not spoil things for the natives that would like to play :)

Greetz,
Red Orm

Yeah, moved to instance 2 in order to make things easier for the natives. I don't want to burden them.

Khalesh
10-21-2013, 11:52 AM
Just a heads-up for the people logging in on Wayfinder or already in the market at instance 1: seems the server is getting trouble dealing with so many people. Please move to instance 2 (or 3 when it spawns) so as to keep the lag down? Let's not spoil things for the natives that would like to play :)

Greetz,
Red Orm

Yup - just logged on a seen Market 1 nice and full.

Moved to market 2 to hopefully avoid lag for those actually playing on Wayfinder

sdrocky
10-21-2013, 11:56 AM
Yup - just logged on a seen Market 1 nice and full.

Moved to market 2 to hopefully avoid lag for those actually playing on Wayfinder

Which is filling rapidly.

Flavilandile
10-21-2013, 11:57 AM
we have a dev response.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428231-New-way-to-acquire-the-new-Hearts-of-Wood-TR-Hearts-of-Wood-no-longer-avaible-at-12/page25#post5141073

Just a please wait for more details post.... It could have been posted saturday....

And the more detail is going to be : the number you see are placeholders values....
Turbine needs to understand that we don't want those placeholder values, we want to keep the tokens or something that can be earned at the same rate that is BTA at worst ( no BTC ) not tied to the Sagas.

Chauncey1
10-21-2013, 12:16 PM
You guys had your fun, time to go home.

Not your call.

Lanhelin
10-21-2013, 12:20 PM
The sit-in now lasts more than 60 hours, spread to Marketplace #1 and #2.

RedOrm
10-21-2013, 12:35 PM
Which is filling rapidly.

Yep, we now have 3 Market instances! Thanks for splitting the party ;)

Greetz,
Red Orm

Chai
10-21-2013, 12:35 PM
You just encourage them...

Their presence on the scene trying to conflagurate those protesting is actually good because it draws even more attention to the issue. In their attempt to disagree and instigate the people sitting on the bridge they are actually helping the cause, as all publicity is good publicity. It also brings out into the open the level one must sink to in order to disagree with what the virtual occupiers are trying to accomplish here. I think the one guy who was trying to instigate the most repeated the same taunt about how he - "thought there was only crybabies in WOW but now they are in DDO as well" - over 100 times during the time I was logged in over there. There are very few actually logically disagreeing, with most of the people appearing to disagree with those on the bridge behaving like they dwell regularly underneath it.

MartinusWyllt
10-21-2013, 12:44 PM
Yes, instead you should be very proud of yourself, YOU ARE IN A MOVEMENT!

Really making a difference, you go girl!

I'm not even there, cowboy. How about you strut about some more and tell everyone about how you're a "real" veteran in a game where there are likely a lot more vets around that just me and how everyone should "thank you" because you volunteered for service and, consequently, cashed those crappy paychecks?

Unless you were drafted, of course, in which case what are you doing trolling in the first place?

(You can submit your DD-214 with name/social blocked-out to actually prove it, btw, though no one cares, anyway.)

Memnir
10-21-2013, 12:49 PM
ATTENTION: Perhaps for the first time ever, Wayfinder has three Marketplace instances.



http://i.imgur.com/ZKrBGd1.jpg


It just gets bigger n bigger. :)



Should be a great crowd for Trivia Round 2 later tonight at 8pm EST!

Edrogar
10-21-2013, 12:51 PM
Hmn, get back to me when you learn how to stage a real protest.

I remember my first ban in starwars galaxies, it was for taking part in a mass protest in c-net star port by thousands of payers on each server, causing all the servers to constantly crash all night, that's a real in game protest.

Superhik
10-21-2013, 12:54 PM
Yes, would be best for everybody to just ignore them since they're only trying to provoke people into making this nonviolent resistance, profanity free, civil disobedience not so much civil.
That would just defeat its sole purpose and we all know it has nothing to do with causing any damage, crashing the server or anything alike

http://i43.tinypic.com/2hpp1c2.jpg

Qhualor
10-21-2013, 01:00 PM
Hmn, get back to me when you learn how to stage a real protest.

I remember my first ban in starwars galaxies, it was for taking part in a mass protest in c-net star port by thousands of payers on each server, causing all the servers to constantly crash all night, that's a real in game protest.

We don't want to start server crashes. We want to stay on line. If you notice, we are getting more and more attention and more and more people are joining us on the bridge as word spreads of what's going on on Way finder and why we are there protesting.

jonqrandom
10-21-2013, 01:02 PM
Hmn, get back to me when you learn how to stage a real protest.

I remember my first ban in starwars galaxies, it was for taking part in a mass protest in c-net star port by thousands of payers on each server, causing all the servers to constantly crash all night, that's a real in game protest.
deliberately crashing servers is rather like vandalism, akin to breaking windows and torching bins, and not what we're about. some of us have moved to the second instance of the marketplace because we were unintentionally causing lag, and don't wish to do so. just because we're protesting, doesn't mean we feel the need to be obnoxious.

LOOON375
10-21-2013, 01:05 PM
Looks like I will create a toon on wayfinder, since this isn't happening on argo.

Nestroy
10-21-2013, 01:27 PM
We don't want to start server crashes. We want to stay on line. If you notice, we are getting more and more attention and more and more people are joining us on the bridge as word spreads of what's going on on Way finder and why we are there protesting.

Easy, there are plenty of instances free ^^. No need to crash the server, let´s play load-balancing. I am on instance 2 that is slowly filling up. And instance 3 is still unoccupied.

Ausdoerrt
10-21-2013, 01:30 PM
Hmn, get back to me when you learn how to stage a real protest.

I remember my first ban in starwars galaxies, it was for taking part in a mass protest in c-net star port by thousands of payers on each server, causing all the servers to constantly crash all night, that's a real in game protest.

This is a peaceful protest, not a riot. We want to make a point, not to cause damage. We also do not want to repeat the unfortunate experience of SWG. Wayfinder was picked for a reason.

DDO community by and large consists of mature (if not in age then in attitude), level-headed players, who at this point simply want to force the devs into an open, transparent dialogue after being ignored quite long enough. I'm positive that if lasting damage was the point, it could be achieved much quicker and much easier.

But this is not a prank. This is not an attack. This is a statement.

Memnir
10-21-2013, 01:33 PM
And instance 3 is still unoccupied.Not any more. :)

Memnir the Dancing Bear and his Amazing Glowing Flea have moved to instance 3.

Nestroy
10-21-2013, 02:11 PM
Not any more. :)

Memnir the Dancing Bear and his Amazing Glowing Flea have moved to instance 3.

Yeah, Memnir rocks the market place, Looks like the classical dancing bear in the circus ^^.

geoffhanna
10-21-2013, 02:34 PM
Not any more. :)

Memnir the Dancing Bear and his Amazing Glowing Flea have moved to instance 3.

The flea is gross, man just gross

Teh_Troll
10-21-2013, 02:37 PM
http://i43.tinypic.com/2hpp1c2.jpg.

Thankfully I'm a wanted troll.

Superhik
10-21-2013, 02:40 PM
Heh, in several states

donblas
10-21-2013, 02:47 PM
Not any more. :)

Memnir the Dancing Bear and his Amazing Glowing Flea have moved to instance 3.

It's a bit big for a flea - I thought it was some sort of space lobster.

Cauthey_No_CCInfo
10-21-2013, 02:51 PM
OK, so should the occupiers disperse now? I feel like we ought to give them a chance and see what they've come up with.

I would say, "No." We should not disperse until they have responded officially, and have done so with a response that is acceptable to the player community.

I guess they have been in meetings all day trying to figure out what they are going to do about this. At least, I hope this is the case. If so, this would be good. I feel that they should communicate VERY REGULARLY about the player community, and the player's concerns about the direction of the game.

Dandonk
10-21-2013, 02:53 PM
I would say, "No." We should not disperse until they have responded officially, and have done so with a response that is acceptable to the player community.

Indeed. A vague "we're coming out with something, noone knows what, at some point, noone knows when" is not enough for me to go anywhere.

patang01
10-21-2013, 02:55 PM
I'm with you all the way. As a customer I'd love to see continued progress of this game. But I'd love that without Turbines hand in my pocket.

I'm getting tired of having to change my play style around Turbines money grubbing need or take the short cut and pay for it. I've given them enough money already.

TDarkchylde
10-21-2013, 03:01 PM
Indeed. A vague "we're coming out with something, noone knows what, at some point, noone knows when" is not enough for me to go anywhere.

Right. If we disperse, the pressure's off. They might get complacent and make another bad call.

We gotta keep the pressure on instead.

Ausdoerrt
10-21-2013, 03:44 PM
Keep it up until the end. We leave - we lose negotiating power.

Spent most of the evening writing an account of the protest, and another hour or two on the bridge. Stay strong and make sure we don't lose this wonderful opportunity to change OUR game for the better.



It's a bit big for a flea - I thought it was some sort of space lobster.

We were at Stormreach
Everybody had matching gowns
Somebody went to Knave's Hollow
And there they saw - a scorrow!

...but it wasn't a scorrow, was a SPACE LOBSTER!


(with apologies to B-52 :D)

sebastianosmith
10-21-2013, 03:53 PM
We were at Stormreach
Everybody had matching gowns
Somebody went to Knave's Hollow
And there they saw - a scorrow!

...but it wasn't a scorrow, was a SPACE LOBSTER!


(with apologies to B-52 :D)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_IiFADSocI

Meat-Head
10-21-2013, 04:03 PM
I would say, "No." We should not disperse until they have responded officially, and have done so with a response that is acceptable to the player community.

I guess they have been in meetings all day trying to figure out what they are going to do about this. At least, I hope this is the case. If so, this would be good. I feel that they should communicate VERY REGULARLY about the player community, and the player's concerns about the direction of the game.


This. This. This.

Don't let them pull some stupid change like just lowering the saga grind.


THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Steiner-Davion
10-21-2013, 04:37 PM
I agree with this 100%. However, companies need to work on striking a balance between monetization and alienating their player-base. If they chase too many customers away they will need to find more intrusive means of monetization which will force more players away. It will turn into a vicious circle where nobody wins.

They would do well to sacrifice a few pennies now for longer term financial stability.

I have been saying that since F2P was first announced. Go back and listen to those episodes of DDOCast

Steiner-Davion
10-21-2013, 04:43 PM
... as well as suspending ALL free accounts for 1 week. Troublemakers are trouble
And what would that do, except puss of the player base and basically be akin to Turbine saying we don't like our players. F2P accounts saved this game from the headsman


and this game is not a democracy.

And neither is this country, so what is your point?

Steiner-Davion
10-21-2013, 04:54 PM
So the last sentence makes it pretty clear Reincarnation is not ready for preview.

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe that's why the comm requirements are so high?

They do not want anyone redeeming comms until it is ready, but they DO want to beta test the systems that ARE ready.

problem here is that historically (and I've been hear since head start) is that once it is put on Lamannia, very little gets changed by the time it goes live. so historically, there is at least a 75% chance that these numbers will be what we see when U20 launches.



Protest is still HIGHLY suspect, and this issue is just a convenient lightning rod for the gullible.
why? And please provide some solid evidence to support your claim? IS it possible sure, butthere is a simple explanation for it: CO-INCIDENCE, pure and simple. No grand conspiracy, just good old fashioned co-incidence.

Steiner-Davion
10-21-2013, 05:01 PM
Maybe people should be complaining about the price of True Hearts....

Also, they could totally be using this time to farm tokens NOW, and turning them in for true hearts.

The protest is stupid, and counterproductive.

Hmmm, lets see.

cost of Heroic hearts is absurd. Check.

Epic hearts costs much much more. That is not absurd? Fail.

of course if the least heart is absurd, the others are absurd too.

CheeseMilk
10-21-2013, 05:35 PM
Well last night was a rough night for me, I got off work, logged in again, and watched my toon Ungood, stand on a bridge. What's hard here is that I wanted to play, I mean, I wanted to just make an alt account, maybe give it some name fitting of the protest, and then play my main a bit.

But, I realized that if I did that, it would defeat the whole point of showing Turbine that I don't need to play this game, the idea of not-playing as a sign of my determination and solidarity. So yah, last night sucked for me, it was the second day that I had full access to the game, I even logged in, and just stood there, not paying.

So my mind started to ask questions about this whole situation, and a reoccurring theme started to play and I kept falling back on the same consideration: Why do things always have to come to this point.

Why do we have to outrage at Turbine, why are they not at the forefront of building their game to be fun. Why is there so much on the table about how to devalue the game to us as opposed to them putting on the forefront of their development how to make the game more enticing, fun and engaging.

When players are enjoying your product, they will spend more on it, that is the truth of things. So, I ask why I am I still playing a game where I am now standing on a bridge, because the developers seem intent on depriving me of a fun game.

This has been a very thought provoking "do nothing" event in my game life, and I am glad to be a part of it.

Beautifully said.

I'm there with you, on my main account as well.

I wanted to play my Sarlona characters. My guildies are outleveling me as I type.

But this seemed like a better use of my time, as there's no point to playing if I'll only be quitting the game if these announced changes stand.

Lanhelin
10-21-2013, 06:01 PM
The occupy sit-in now lasts 66 hours, spreaded to Marketplace #1, #2 and #3 and still new players join :)

Chai
10-21-2013, 06:04 PM
Hmn, get back to me when you learn how to stage a real protest.

I remember my first ban in starwars galaxies, it was for taking part in a mass protest in c-net star port by thousands of payers on each server, causing all the servers to constantly crash all night, that's a real in game protest.

Hardly, since they deleted players entire class profiles they worked almost a year to earn. It was more like a mass exodus than a protest. The entire one character per account thing was rediculous from the get go.

bsquishwizzy
10-21-2013, 06:16 PM
Why do we have to outrage at Turbine, why are they not at the forefront of building their game to be fun. Why is there so much on the table about how to devalue the game to us as opposed to them putting on the forefront of their development how to make the game more enticing, fun and engaging.


I’ll tell you why this is.

I grew up in a small business. It was a family-run business for – I dunno – maybe 50, to 60 years. My Dad left, started how own place, then bought out the family establishment. He was successful.

The one thing back then was that you catered to the customer – the customer was always right. That credo still exists these days, but there are few and far between who actually believe this.

Now, I never went into the family business, nor did any of my siblings. I went into software. And I will tell you this: there is a certain type of arrogance when it comes to software vendors. It existed a long time ago with the notion of the “dumb user,” especially in software designs. But people took that to mean that people who are not tech savvy are someone stupid, which is NOT the case. You walk in to a coffee distributor, for example, and they may not know how to do sales receipts on your system, but they know their business backwards and forwards. You assume these people are somehow “dumb” and your project WILL be a disaster by the time you leave.

Despite any lack of knowledge that someone may have about technology and whatnot, you R-E-S-P-E-C-T your customer. They didn’t get to be successful over the long haul by being idiots. Likewise, someone pays a dollar for an hours work of whatever entertainment you software provides, you assume that this is one of their hard-earned dollars that the customer chose to spend on your product. You respect the work they had to do to get that dollar in the first place, and appreciate that they chose to spend it on your stuff.

However, people nowadays take a lot of this for granted. Maybe because we are several generations away from the Great Depression, where that hard-earned dollar was something genuinely special? I really don’t know. I mean, I could give you stories of my family members during that time, and the depravations that they had to go through – it was a rough time for a lot of people. But when things were prosperous, virtually EVERYBODY appreciated what they had. Nowadays? It is like no one respects anything. I mean, it is true of the customers as well as the service providers, but it seems that service providers take for granted the whims and desires of people spending their money on their product. I guess the assumption is that there is always a much larger pool of people that they can attract by doing A, B, and C. But, to be honest, no one is going to play your game for very long if you continually **** all over the people who like it for the sake of attracting someone new. All “revolving doors” have parts that wear out, and this holds true with a player-base.

And the further you get away from working directly with the customers, the more of an arrogant, condescending ass you become. And make no mistake, the people making some of these decisions are the people who are as far away from the player-base as their job description allows. It’s their “vision”, not your desires that matter.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m one of those condescending asses. The difference is that my “vision” usually works, and it is something that a customer can identify with. Mainly because I have a very LONG history of having to work directly with customers, and I can figure out what they want often times before they ask for it. Not always, but quite a bit of the time.

But not a lot of people in this industry can say the same thing.

Customer service nowadays is something handled by offshore reps, and not by decision-makers directly. They get paid far too much money to have to deal with the “little people” who pay their salary.

And I am a full-on free-markets guy. This is just the way things trend. And the only way you’re going to fix it and earn a little respect is to pull their short-curlys and put their salary in jeopardy. There is lots of competition out there for DDO, and they can ill-afford to lose players. So if they are not going to respect the wishes of their customers, their customers should pick up their marbles and go somewhere else.

Just a suggestion.

MartinusWyllt
10-21-2013, 06:21 PM
...

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe that's why the comm requirements are so high?

They do not want anyone redeeming comms until it is ready, but they DO want to beta test the systems that ARE ready...

I guess you missed where there are all hearts available on the floor in the test dojo on lam...so...there goes that hypothesis.

Arianka
10-21-2013, 06:36 PM
So my mind started to ask questions about this whole situation, and a reoccurring theme started to play and I kept falling back on the same consideration: Why do things always have to come to this point.

Why do we have to outrage at Turbine, why are they not at the forefront of building their game to be fun. Why is there so much on the table about how to devalue the game to us as opposed to them putting on the forefront of their development how to make the game more enticing, fun and engaging.

Hubris?

Ungood
10-21-2013, 06:36 PM
I’ll tell you why this is.

I grew up in a small business. It was a family-run business for – I dunno – maybe 50, to 60 years. My Dad left, started how own place, then bought out the family establishment. He was successful.

The one thing back then was that you catered to the customer – the customer was always right. That credo still exists these days, but there are few and far between who actually believe this.

Now, I never went into the family business, nor did any of my siblings. I went into software. And I will tell you this: there is a certain type of arrogance when it comes to software vendors. It existed a long time ago with the notion of the “dumb user,” especially in software designs. But people took that to mean that people who are not tech savvy are someone stupid, which is NOT the case. You walk in to a coffee distributor, for example, and they may not know how to do sales receipts on your system, but they know their business backwards and forwards. You assume these people are somehow “dumb” and your project WILL be a disaster by the time you leave.

Despite any lack of knowledge that someone may have about technology and whatnot, you R-E-S-P-E-C-T your customer. They didn’t get to be successful over the long haul by being idiots. Likewise, someone pays a dollar for an hours work of whatever entertainment you software provides, you assume that this is one of their hard-earned dollars that the customer chose to spend on your product. You respect the work they had to do to get that dollar in the first place, and appreciate that they chose to spend it on your stuff.

However, people nowadays take a lot of this for granted. Maybe because we are several generations away from the Great Depression, where that hard-earned dollar was something genuinely special? I really don’t know. I mean, I could give you stories of my family members during that time, and the depravations that they had to go through – it was a rough time for a lot of people. But when things were prosperous, virtually EVERYBODY appreciated what they had. Nowadays? It is like no one respects anything. I mean, it is true of the customers as well as the service providers, but it seems that service providers take for granted the whims and desires of people spending their money on their product. I guess the assumption is that there is always a much larger pool of people that they can attract by doing A, B, and C. But, to be honest, no one is going to play your game for very long if you continually **** all over the people who like it for the sake of attracting someone new. All “revolving doors” have parts that wear out, and this holds true with a player-base.

And the further you get away from working directly with the customers, the more of an arrogant, condescending ass you become. And make no mistake, the people making some of these decisions are the people who are as far away from the player-base as their job description allows. It’s their “vision”, not your desires that matter.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m one of those condescending asses. The difference is that my “vision” usually works, and it is something that a customer can identify with. Mainly because I have a very LONG history of having to work directly with customers, and I can figure out what they want often times before they ask for it. Not always, but quite a bit of the time.

But not a lot of people in this industry can say the same thing.

Customer service nowadays is something handled by offshore reps, and not by decision-makers directly. They get paid far too much money to have to deal with the “little people” who pay their salary.

And I am a full-on free-markets guy. This is just the way things trend. And the only way you’re going to fix it and earn a little respect is to pull their short-curlys and put their salary in jeopardy. There is lots of competition out there for DDO, and they can ill-afford to lose players. So if they are not going to respect the wishes of their customers, their customers should pick up their marbles and go somewhere else.

Just a suggestion.

This makes me think of the quote: "Take care of your customers, or someone else will"

Silken-Akira
10-21-2013, 07:04 PM
ending my day .. going to support the good cause for an hour

Lanhelin
10-21-2013, 07:50 PM
Screenshots taken just a few minutes ago.


Market 1
http://s1.directupload.net/images/131022/ao3t32ti.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)


Market 1
http://s14.directupload.net/images/131022/zr2pugbe.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)


Market 2
http://s7.directupload.net/images/131022/hnc8makb.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)


Market 2
http://s14.directupload.net/images/131022/y82q8zom.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)


Market 3
http://s1.directupload.net/images/131022/xmiftw7v.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)


Market 3
http://s14.directupload.net/images/131022/nyimu8vn.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)


Join the occupy sit-in on Wayfinder! :)

Havok.cry
10-21-2013, 08:01 PM
I’ll tell you why this is.

I grew up in a small business. It was a family-run business for – I dunno – maybe 50, to 60 years. My Dad left, started how own place, then bought out the family establishment. He was successful.

The one thing back then was that you catered to the customer – the customer was always right. That credo still exists these days, but there are few and far between who actually believe this.

Now, I never went into the family business, nor did any of my siblings. I went into software. And I will tell you this: there is a certain type of arrogance when it comes to software vendors. It existed a long time ago with the notion of the “dumb user,” especially in software designs. But people took that to mean that people who are not tech savvy are someone stupid, which is NOT the case. You walk in to a coffee distributor, for example, and they may not know how to do sales receipts on your system, but they know their business backwards and forwards. You assume these people are somehow “dumb” and your project WILL be a disaster by the time you leave.

Despite any lack of knowledge that someone may have about technology and whatnot, you R-E-S-P-E-C-T your customer. They didn’t get to be successful over the long haul by being idiots. Likewise, someone pays a dollar for an hours work of whatever entertainment you software provides, you assume that this is one of their hard-earned dollars that the customer chose to spend on your product. You respect the work they had to do to get that dollar in the first place, and appreciate that they chose to spend it on your stuff.

However, people nowadays take a lot of this for granted. Maybe because we are several generations away from the Great Depression, where that hard-earned dollar was something genuinely special? I really don’t know. I mean, I could give you stories of my family members during that time, and the depravations that they had to go through – it was a rough time for a lot of people. But when things were prosperous, virtually EVERYBODY appreciated what they had. Nowadays? It is like no one respects anything. I mean, it is true of the customers as well as the service providers, but it seems that service providers take for granted the whims and desires of people spending their money on their product. I guess the assumption is that there is always a much larger pool of people that they can attract by doing A, B, and C. But, to be honest, no one is going to play your game for very long if you continually **** all over the people who like it for the sake of attracting someone new. All “revolving doors” have parts that wear out, and this holds true with a player-base.

And the further you get away from working directly with the customers, the more of an arrogant, condescending ass you become. And make no mistake, the people making some of these decisions are the people who are as far away from the player-base as their job description allows. It’s their “vision”, not your desires that matter.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m one of those condescending asses. The difference is that my “vision” usually works, and it is something that a customer can identify with. Mainly because I have a very LONG history of having to work directly with customers, and I can figure out what they want often times before they ask for it. Not always, but quite a bit of the time.

But not a lot of people in this industry can say the same thing.

Customer service nowadays is something handled by offshore reps, and not by decision-makers directly. They get paid far too much money to have to deal with the “little people” who pay their salary.

And I am a full-on free-markets guy. This is just the way things trend. And the only way you’re going to fix it and earn a little respect is to pull their short-curlys and put their salary in jeopardy. There is lots of competition out there for DDO, and they can ill-afford to lose players. So if they are not going to respect the wishes of their customers, their customers should pick up their marbles and go somewhere else.

Just a suggestion.

Speaking as an arrogant, condescending ass myself, everything in this post is true.

Havok.cry
10-21-2013, 08:09 PM
Glin just posted a response.

Cauthey_No_CCInfo
10-21-2013, 08:22 PM
OK, so should the occupiers disperse now? I feel like we ought to give them a chance and see what they've come up with.


Glin just posted a response.

Where?

I do not see it in the Dev Tracker. :(

Is it on his effing Twitter account, again?! :(

whereispowderedsilve
10-21-2013, 08:23 PM
Where?

I do not see it in the Dev Tracker. :(

Is it on his effing Twitter account, again?! :(


https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428583-Earning-Hearts-of-Wood-post-U20#post5141968

Metal, are you not able to see the Lama Dev Tracker from the main page? (serious question).

Cauthey_No_CCInfo
10-21-2013, 08:40 PM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428583-Earning-Hearts-of-Wood-post-U20#post5141968

Metal, are you not able to see the Lama Dev Tracker from the main page? (serious question).

I am.

I am just used to using the "Dev Tracker" quick link up at the top. They ought to add a "Lama Tracker" quick link, too. I am of the belief that many aren't used to checking the Lama Tracker.

There was an issue for some to view the Lama Section. I believe that Tolero has already identified, and remediated this.

Cauthey_No_CCInfo
10-21-2013, 08:41 PM
Last week we updated Lamannia with a new barter option in place for earning Hearts of Wood in-game. While we would have been better if the information I posting here was released at the same time, we received feedback from the community on the most concerning issues that come with both introducing a new system and changing an old. Below, I intend to address a few facts on the system, cover some of the design thoughts and also address concerns that were highlighted over the weekend.


When Update 20 goes out to live servers, there will be a new commendation available through select Epic Sagas that will allow players to barter for Hearts of Wood. Initially these Epic Sagas will offer an option to claim a Commendation of Valor; in time we intend to add additional methods to obtain “Commendations of Valor.”

(a) Saga: The End of Eberron (Epic)
(b) Saga: Perils of Cormyr (Epic)
(c) Saga: The Planeswalker’s Path (Epic)
(d) Saga: Menace of the Underdark (Epic)
(e) Saga: Honor of the Huntsilvers (Epic)
(f) Saga: In the Wastes of Gianthold (Epic)

A quest can overlap two or more sagas. In the situation where a quest is in multiple sagas, you will receive completion credit for each saga, for example, completing “A stay at the Inn” from the Update 16 Adventure Pack will reward credit in 3 Saga’s (b, c, e above). In this way, you can complete 5 sagas by playing 36 quests, and various combinations within that scenario if you prefer to skip some content.

The points you earn from completing a saga will vary based on the difficulty you completed them in. The number of commendations earned on an all elite run is 3-4 times that of an all normal run. In addition to difficulty, the higher level sagas tend to reward more commendations as well. Since the commendation is the currency, the important figure is the cost of the Hearts of Wood.

Feedback received:
The prices on Lamannia are not final – inspired by the Lamannia feedback, the Heroic Heart of Wood will be greatly reduced from the price displayed in the bartershop today. We’ll be looking at your additional feedback and how players play through sagas, and adjust the costs appropriately. We expect the average player to, upon reaching the minimum level requirement, spend additional hours to obtain a Heart of Wood – but never hundreds of hours. Since the heroic goal is 20, we are lowering the expectation of number of Epic quests needed to earn the heart. You will find that Iconic and Epic hearts cost more because you are expected to earn most of it during gameplay, if you approach earning commendations as your priority reward for Sagas. We are still working on these values, and next Lamannia update they will be lower (though still open to adjustment up/down based on feedback)

Saga’s have been intermittently off since they were introduced this summer. We approached this system with much consideration for delivering something this important, so it is not taken lightly, and we are focused on making sure that Sagas remain available for players who have already started engaging with them, even before the commendations were “the new thing”.

What are we solving?
• The saga system serves to spread out repeat questing and reward for playing a variety of content and more challenging content. It does not penalize for playing out of order and you can be on track for multiple sagas simultaneously.
• One thing, which players have already pointed out, is we are moving to a single game currency specifically for Hearts of Wood. New content, Eberron or FR, will not use Tokens of the Twelve, formerly “Epic Dungeon Tokens.” Originally intended as a hardcore option for the most Elite level cap builds – prior to U14 - the accessibility was made trivial for some when Epic levels were introduced. We left that unchecked and low priority for some time and there is an amazing disparity between players that can grind dozens in hours vs. the majority that takes days (20-30 hours) of gameplay to accomplish – we are balancing this system.
• Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.


Feedback received:
As of this writing, Update 20 will not remove the Heart of Wood from the Twelve barter NPC. Next steps will be discussed at a later date, but eventually commendations will be the preferred method of exchange – ideally this is preferred by most players, today that is not the case and we are acting accordingly.
I do want to point out that the name of the True Druidic Heart of Wood is changing to Heroic Heart of Wood and all existing true-hearts will be updated to match.

As we work to get Reincarnation out to Lamannia, we will also make initial updates to the bartershops with Hearts of Wood.

I realize there are more topics to cover on this subject and we aim to address this here, on the Lamannia forums, during development.


Personally, I would like to hear more. I am pleased that we now have the producers' attention, at least.

However, my belief is that perhaps the protest should continue until we have more solid information about these system changes.

whereispowderedsilve
10-21-2013, 08:42 PM
I am.

I am just used to using the "Dev Tracker" quick link up at the top. They ought to add a "Lama Tracker" quick link, too. I am of the belief that many aren't used to checking the Lama Tracker.

There was an issue for some to view the Lama Section. I believe that Tolero has already identified, and remediated this.

Cool, no worries, that is good that they hopefully fixed that for you. Drop by the chat if/when you can whenever. Cheers! :P! :)! :D

(I agree on your suggestion as well for a "Lama Tracker quick link" that is brilliant).

lyrecono
10-21-2013, 08:48 PM
replied to glin, in the meanwhile my wolf dances on the market bridge

Qhualor
10-21-2013, 09:01 PM
he didn't say anything about BTA, actual cost for a Heart of Wood and said sagas is still the focus. i don't feel like we won or got something compromised, so have to wait and see what they come up with. i feel like i shouldn't leave the bridge just yet.

Havok.cry
10-21-2013, 09:06 PM
I agree, this should continue. It is not finished yet.

Marcus-Hawkeye
10-21-2013, 09:14 PM
I'm staying on the bridge. While it's nice to have communication... there is a difference to being hearing something and listening to something

Qhualor
10-21-2013, 09:15 PM
Producer Glin posted in his thread he cant answer right now on the bind status and to be patient. ive been standing on the bridge since Friday, i got time.

gordgray
10-21-2013, 09:19 PM
And still we grow.

Please, for all players from other servers, roll up a toon on Wayfinder and join us there. We need your assistance!

went there non could give a reason what thy needed help with just a bunch of dumb remarks when ask to bad.

Natashaelle
10-21-2013, 09:21 PM
We are now 300 !!!!

>> Kicks a Saga NPC down the hole

Marcus-Hawkeye
10-21-2013, 09:25 PM
went there non could give a reason what thy needed help with just a bunch of dumb remarks when ask to bad.

were you the guy talking to memnir?

I ask because if you were we're doing his trivia game atm, and many people are afk. I'm sorry we didn't respond. I figured someone else would. My bad.

azrael4h
10-21-2013, 09:38 PM
I’ll tell you why this is.

I grew up in a small business. It was a family-run business for – I dunno – maybe 50, to 60 years. My Dad left, started how own place, then bought out the family establishment. He was successful.

The one thing back then was that you catered to the customer – the customer was always right. That credo still exists these days, but there are few and far between who actually believe this.

Now, I never went into the family business, nor did any of my siblings. I went into software. And I will tell you this: there is a certain type of arrogance when it comes to software vendors. It existed a long time ago with the notion of the “dumb user,” especially in software designs. But people took that to mean that people who are not tech savvy are someone stupid, which is NOT the case. You walk in to a coffee distributor, for example, and they may not know how to do sales receipts on your system, but they know their business backwards and forwards. You assume these people are somehow “dumb” and your project WILL be a disaster by the time you leave.

Despite any lack of knowledge that someone may have about technology and whatnot, you R-E-S-P-E-C-T your customer. They didn’t get to be successful over the long haul by being idiots. Likewise, someone pays a dollar for an hours work of whatever entertainment you software provides, you assume that this is one of their hard-earned dollars that the customer chose to spend on your product. You respect the work they had to do to get that dollar in the first place, and appreciate that they chose to spend it on your stuff.

However, people nowadays take a lot of this for granted. Maybe because we are several generations away from the Great Depression, where that hard-earned dollar was something genuinely special? I really don’t know. I mean, I could give you stories of my family members during that time, and the depravations that they had to go through – it was a rough time for a lot of people. But when things were prosperous, virtually EVERYBODY appreciated what they had. Nowadays? It is like no one respects anything. I mean, it is true of the customers as well as the service providers, but it seems that service providers take for granted the whims and desires of people spending their money on their product. I guess the assumption is that there is always a much larger pool of people that they can attract by doing A, B, and C. But, to be honest, no one is going to play your game for very long if you continually **** all over the people who like it for the sake of attracting someone new. All “revolving doors” have parts that wear out, and this holds true with a player-base.

And the further you get away from working directly with the customers, the more of an arrogant, condescending ass you become. And make no mistake, the people making some of these decisions are the people who are as far away from the player-base as their job description allows. It’s their “vision”, not your desires that matter.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m one of those condescending asses. The difference is that my “vision” usually works, and it is something that a customer can identify with. Mainly because I have a very LONG history of having to work directly with customers, and I can figure out what they want often times before they ask for it. Not always, but quite a bit of the time.

But not a lot of people in this industry can say the same thing.

Customer service nowadays is something handled by offshore reps, and not by decision-makers directly. They get paid far too much money to have to deal with the “little people” who pay their salary.

And I am a full-on free-markets guy. This is just the way things trend. And the only way you’re going to fix it and earn a little respect is to pull their short-curlys and put their salary in jeopardy. There is lots of competition out there for DDO, and they can ill-afford to lose players. So if they are not going to respect the wishes of their customers, their customers should pick up their marbles and go somewhere else.

Just a suggestion.

I'll add my agreement with this; I had much the same formative experience in a family business when I was a teenager. Retail, so I was always working with a customer. Occasionally working on their car as well. I sold a lot of tools that way.

The thing Glin and the rest at Tubine think they can ignore is this: you cannot silence people. Word of Mouth is far more effective advertising than any other. I've put a couple business under by driving away customers, and have driven a lot of people to not buy Nissans for what one dealership did. In DDO's case, I've only held off because I like playing with my guild; I no longer pay them anything since they no longer are worthy to receive my money. But I do not recommend this game to anyone. When talking about games, as far as most know, I only play single-player games. That's because I cannot, in good faith, recommend any Turbine product due to their shoddy treatment of customers.

This is the internet, word of mouth goes a long way. When you have dozens, if not hundreds, of people bad mouthing you, it means more people are less likely to try your product. The saying "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is about as truthful as anything coming out of a politician's mouth. For every one disgruntled customer, you lose at least 20 potential customers. I learned that in retail, and it's been proven true in every place I've worked since. One place is barely hanging on, another is approaching bankruptcy, probably by summer of next year. Yet another lost 75% of their business, and is only still there because of massive tax breaks that made the company more money than that location did otherwise. The same thing happened to Chrysler and GM and Ford; they mistreated their customers, and lost business. Two of them went bankrupt. The other had to put their own name and logo up as collateral in order to secure loans to survive without bankruptcy. Turbine is doing the exact same thing here.

Memnir
10-21-2013, 10:06 PM
Another 120 minutes of Trivia Amazement! These are just too much fun. :)
Some familiar faces tonight - as well as many, many new players!

Tonight's final score card was as follows:
Doneandout 1, Ayngel 3, Stridsvagn 11, Turoneleeve 1, Moonunit 8, War 4 + Eleventy, Vivala 2, Jibbrael 2, Terdbind 2, Pointless 2.000001

http://i.imgur.com/44Od2S0.jpg


If the protest continues (and the general vibe on the Bridge is that although Glin has made a statement - it's not enough to call off the Protest) I WILL be doing more Trivia nights as my schedule allows. I need to double-check when I'm working, and I will post new Trivia Events accordingly. :)



Thanks everyone! It's y'all who make this event as awesome as it is.

vampiregoat69
10-21-2013, 10:56 PM
WOW after the kind of BS Tech support I did not get tonight ******** is losing me for good. I am taking my money else where and finding a game that when I PAY money for tech support I GET SUPPORT. Not the answer we are coming to help then tell us TOUGH LUCK put in bug report and restart quest.

Ytteri
10-21-2013, 11:38 PM
If the protest continues (and the general vibe on the Bridge is that although Glin has made a statement - it's not enough to call off the Protest)


I've gotta disagree with this, they're making heroic hearts stay available at the twelve, so what further problems are there? In the statement:




As of this writing, Update 20 will not remove the Heart of Wood from the Twelve barter NPC. Next steps will be discussed at a later date, but eventually commendations will be the preferred method of exchange – ideally this is preferred by most players, today that is not the case and we are acting accordingly.



So, I'm out. To you guys staying I wish you luck, but honestly I no longer know why you're still doing it.

Deathdefy
10-21-2013, 11:43 PM
They're keeping tokens [EDIT: for a while at least, and they also apparently intend to keep heroic TR accessible which was why I cared about tokens at all] so I'm out until that's retracted.

Thanks very much for the good times organizers, participants and thread trolls. You all made this magical.

EnjoyTheJourney
10-22-2013, 12:04 AM
They're keeping tokens so I'm out until that's retracted.

Thanks very much for the good times organizers, participants and thread trolls. You all made this magical.What I read in Glin's post was that tokens aren't being eliminated right away. However, that system will be "deprecated" (that's the term being used) in the future. The question of BTC and BTA isn't resolved, nor is the question about what role content that is now usable for accumulating tokens might have (if any) after they finish "deprecating" the tokens system.

Did I miss something?

whereispowderedsilve
10-22-2013, 12:07 AM
What I read in Glin's post was that tokens aren't being eliminated right away. However, that system will be "deprecated" (that's the term being used) in the future. The question of BTC and BTA isn't resolved, nor is the question about what role content that is now usable for accumulating tokens might have (if any) after they finish "deprecating" the tokens system.

Did I miss something?

Nope, you got it spot on. Heh.

Qhualor
10-22-2013, 12:07 AM
despite Producer Glins thread, just wanted to update that the protest is still going on the bridge in Wayfinder. we are still accepting guild invites and people are still joining. unfortunately, i am unable to post pics to show players that are still here.

Deathdefy
10-22-2013, 12:17 AM
What I read in Glin's post was that tokens aren't being eliminated right away. However, that system will be "deprecated" (that's the term being used) in the future. The question of BTC and BTA isn't resolved, nor is the question about what role content that is now usable for accumulating tokens might have (if any) after they finish "deprecating" the tokens system.

Did I miss something?

Nope. The box I needed ticked was "easy heroic TR-ing will stay" which it apparently will.

If the protest to you is about more than that I'd stay on the bridge.

Worldcrafter
10-22-2013, 12:24 AM
.

Thankfully I'm a wanted troll.

More like an arch-troll, or an ascended troll. Evolved away from the normal trollish weaknesses. Paragon troll?


OK, so should the occupiers disperse now? I feel like we ought to give them a chance and see what they've come up with.

My personal suggestion is to acknowledge the devs are opening communication and to thank them for that. If you are still concerned with the other issues (as to the new items being BtC and the rates they drop vs. cost), then continue to sit on the bridge. Even if you are not concerned, consider still stopping by once in a while for the solidarity you had shown previously.


Hmn, get back to me when you learn how to stage a real protest.

I remember my first ban in starwars galaxies, it was for taking part in a mass protest in c-net star port by thousands of payers on each server, causing all the servers to constantly crash all night, that's a real in game protest.

People gathered in protest; devs have started to amend previous statements and decisions based on this. So far, I think that's a real protest, and a successful one at that.

Lanhelin
10-22-2013, 12:44 AM
Due to players still occupying the bridge and still new players joining the protest guild, I proudly welcome all protesters to Day 4 of the sit-in. It now lasts non-stop more than incredible 72 hours(!) on Wayfinder, Marketplace #1, #2 and #3.

To summarize shortly what happened in the last 24 hours out in the the web, here a small Link collection of people all over the world recognizing and acknowledging this outstanding "doing nothing":


English
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/20/dungeons-and-dragons-online-players-protest-true-heart-changes/
http://mmofallout.com/player-protest-true-heart-update-in-ddo/
http://www.freetoplay.tv/news/what-do-we-not-want-when-dont-we-want-it-time-for-a-ddo-protest/
http://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/1owntb/dungeons_and_dragons_online_players_protest_true/
http://animationews.com/dungeons-and-dragons-online-players-protest-true-heart-changes/
http://www.gamestreat.com/MMO/News/1264884-Dungeons-and-Dragons-Online-players-protest-True-Heart-changes.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5998113/Reincarnation-reincarnated.html#5998113
http://www.gamergeoff.com/category/ddo/
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=700741
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/22/turbine-addresses-ddo-true-heart-controversy/
http://www.gamergeoff.com/power-to-the-people/
http://www.tentonhammer.com/ddo/news/turbine-addresses-ddo-feedback-on-u20-hearts-of-wood-changes

*new*
http://www.gamergeoff.com/the-last-reincarnation-rebellion-post-i-will-write-today/
http://samiusgurobo.com/2013/10/21/did-i-rage/
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/24/the-think-tank-would-you-participate-in-an-in-game-protest/


German
http://www.buffed.de/Dungeons-und-Dragons-Online-Dragons-Vault-PC-129040/News/Dungeons-und-Dragons-Online-Spieler-protestieren-gegen-Update-20-1093562/
http://games.de/news/dungeons-and-dragons-online-fans-protestieren-gegen-wiedergeburt-aenderungen-176811
http://gilde-darksociety.de/ipb/index.php?/page/news.html/_/tnn/dungeons-dragons-online-spieler-protestieren-gegen-update-20-r1540

*new*
http://www.buffed.de/Dungeons-und-Dragons-Online-Stormreach-PC-64740/News/Dungeons-und-Dragons-Online-Entwickler-reagieren-auf-Spielerproteste-1094162/
http://games.de/news/dungeons-and-dragons-online-entwickler-reagieren-auf-proteste-gegen-update-20-177028


French
http://www.mondespersistants.com/news/dungeons-and-dragons-online-un-sit-in-pour-protester-contre-un-changement:28359/

*new*
http://www.mondespersistants.com/news/dungeons-and-dragons-online-une-reponse-du-studio-pour-calmer-la-grogne:28387/


Videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ILF8GZoHaCk


Join the sit-in! :)

kmoustakas
10-22-2013, 01:12 AM
Good job and thank you!

* It may not be much, but it's more than nothing

Lanhelin
10-22-2013, 01:19 AM
Good job and thank you!

* It may not be much, but it's more than nothing

tyvm - there are a few more sites, but all of them relinking to either massively, buffed or mondepersistantes which I actually didn't link here because of repeat.

HernandoCortez
10-22-2013, 01:33 AM
I will help you guys protest if they hide this thread too.

Lanhelin
10-22-2013, 01:57 AM
I will help you guys protest if they hide this thread too.

You're welcome. But this won't happen I guess. If they really wanted to hide this thread, they'd already done it yesterday. At this point I want to thank the invisible moderators for their polishing this thread, deleting the most http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/images/smilies/s_076.gif ridiculous http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/images/smilies/1/ugly.gif Troll-posts tirelessly! Thank you very much! http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/images/smilies/zUZTb9pU.gif

F2PPremiumLeech
10-22-2013, 02:17 AM
Is there ANY Saga that can be completed by F2P guys? I cant think of any. Before they were able to at least grind the web of chaos-chain for tokens.

Antheal
10-22-2013, 02:20 AM
Is there ANY Saga that can be completed by F2P guys? I cant think of any. Before they were able to at least grind the web of chaos-chain for tokens.

Nope. They've locked it behind a great big wall of pay-to-win.

Scope333
10-22-2013, 03:08 AM
Is there ANY Saga that can be completed by F2P guys? I cant think of any. Before they were able to at least grind the web of chaos-chain for tokens.

Oh my God!!! The people who don't pay for the game are unhappy now too. Meet me in the Twelve for a sit in!

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 03:19 AM
A VERY disappointing response from Turbine. None of the players' concerns are addressed. The system is going live, albeit with some (unspecified - it'll be ridiculous even if they halve it) changes in the comm numbers. Still BtC. Still no new Sagas for a while. Tokens are still thrown out of the window in the long run.

I will do everything to see this protest going until Turbine is forced to abandon their usual strategy.

Dandonk
10-22-2013, 03:23 AM
I'm back in on the bridge. I do not feel the post addresses the concerns all that well, especially noting the number of qualifiers in the post and the temporary (and undisclosed period for this) nature of the tokens staying in.

Let's keep this going, people! Let's get a real response to the core issues!

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 03:57 AM
I'm back in on the bridge. I do not feel the post addresses the concerns all that well, especially noting the number of qualifiers in the post and the temporary (and undisclosed period for this) nature of the tokens staying in.

Let's keep this going, people! Let's get a real response to the core issues!

Indeed, I will join as soon as I'm back from work (might be another 12 hours, unfortunately).

F2PPremiumLeech
10-22-2013, 04:15 AM
Oh my God!!! The people who don't pay for the game are unhappy now too. Meet me in the Twelve for a sit in!

It was F2P crowd that saved the game few years back. You see, they get a taste of what they like and they end up buying things. Like I did. First I got STK, Catacombs and Delera. Then I got VoN and Vale. etc. The point is however that in order to run sagas they need a specific set of packs/expansions, which they might have not thought of before. So F2P's who have hit 20 starts looking into TR business and realizes that the packs they've already bought cannot give them what they need to TR and there is no F2P content either to give it.

Now they cannot TR and get replay value of any low level packs they've bought, especially if there are no epic versions of them. They are stuck. They feel they got screwed. Nowhere was notification that they should get these specific packs in order to enjoy end-game. And if they cannot TR they don't bother to buy other races /classes to experiment on their next life.

jonqrandom
10-22-2013, 04:56 AM
I've gotta disagree with this, they're making heroic hearts stay available at the twelve, so what further problems are there? ...
So, I'm out. To you guys staying I wish you luck, but honestly I no longer know why you're still doing it.
the problems are: there is nothing saying that those tokens will continue to drop, only that ones you already have can still be bartered for hearts. there is a statement in there that tokens will be "deprecated" (removed eventually). there is nothing saying that commendations of valor will drop outside of GH in eberron. there is nothing saying that commendations of valor will become BtA instead of BtC.

since these problems still stand, i'm still on the bridge.

kazeikan
10-22-2013, 05:05 AM
It was F2P crowd that saved the game few years back. You see, they get a taste of what they like and they end up buying things. Like I did. First I got STK, Catacombs and Delera. Then I got VoN and Vale. etc. The point is however that in order to run sagas they need a specific set of packs/expansions, which they might have not thought of before. So F2P's who have hit 20 starts looking into TR business and realizes that the packs they've already bought cannot give them what they need to TR and there is no F2P content either to give it.

Now they cannot TR and get replay value of any low level packs they've bought, especially if there are no epic versions of them. They are stuck. They feel they got screwed. Nowhere was notification that they should get these specific packs in order to enjoy end-game. And if they cannot TR they don't bother to buy other races /classes to experiment on their next life.

I'm neutral on this topic. I did not and will not participate in this protest. I am VIP on main account, not like it matters.

However, Scope33 you got to make your trolling less obvious to be effective. Come on, October join date and 3 posts.

On the offchance it's not you it's probably Mr. Roboto or UncleBlue. Could quite possibly be all of you.

I won't tell you to be more like Teh Troll because he is not a troll. All he does is post hjeal me on every other post. At this point he probably thinks its an euphemism for sex.

Anyways truck on at least you're better than Teh Troll.

somecallmetim
10-22-2013, 05:18 AM
Best way to hit a company like this is in the wallet. Don't like what they are doing, don't spend any money on their products, pure and simple.

Encourage others to do the same.

This may of already been said, if so, it needs to be said again, and again, and again.

jonqrandom
10-22-2013, 06:21 AM
please go /sign this.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428611-Make-Commendations-of-Valor-drop-in-ALL-epics-by-u20-and-make-them-BtA?p=5142492#post5142492 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428611-Make-Commendations-of-Valor-drop-in-ALL-epics-by-u20-and-make-them-BtA?p=5142492#post5142492)

Silken-Akira
10-22-2013, 06:30 AM
It was F2P crowd that saved the game few years back. You see, they get a taste of what they like and they end up buying things. Like I did. First I got STK, Catacombs and Delera. Then I got VoN and Vale. etc. The point is however that in order to run sagas they need a specific set of packs/expansions, which they might have not thought of before. So F2P's who have hit 20 starts looking into TR business and realizes that the packs they've already bought cannot give them what they need to TR and there is no F2P content either to give it.

Now they cannot TR and get replay value of any low level packs they've bought, especially if there are no epic versions of them. They are stuck. They feel they got screwed. Nowhere was notification that they should get these specific packs in order to enjoy end-game. And if they cannot TR they don't bother to buy other races /classes to experiment on their next life.

Reading this specific wording. (although the this is worded by others before) made me decide to ask Turbine for one extra request....

PLEASE STOP PROFILING YOURSELF AS F2P!! YOU ARE ALREADY LESS AND LESS AND IF YOU WILL PROCEED WITH U20 (altered or not) YOU JUST CAN4T SAY YOU ARE ANYMORE!!!

On the bright side for Turbine if you act on this wisely and listen to your community, cancel the current planned U20, admit your are wrong about the path you tried to follow and work openly on the new U20. Then due to fact that this is so unseen throughout this genre it would be applauded throughout the whole MMORPG community. Stubbornly try to do your own liking and try mask it through doing it in bits and pieces and not telling us the whole story and just implement it, and lots of us will go.
(I am generally not a doom sayer and think it is mostly overrated but with this I have to agree and will support the players behind this complaint)

Lanhelin
10-22-2013, 06:32 AM
The occupy sit-in now lasts 78+ hours. I didn't take actual screenies, so please feel free to post some of them. Instead I collected all posts in this thread with uploaded screenshots (though no quotation posts). I'll try to keep this post up to date, as well as the media link list (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142323&viewfull=1#post5142323) one.

Occupy Bridge of Resistance Sit-in Screenshots:




https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5138259&viewfull=1#post5138259

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5138341&viewfull=1#post5138341

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5138382&viewfull=1#post5138382

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5138433&viewfull=1#post5138433

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5138624&viewfull=1#post5138624

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5138648&viewfull=1#post5138648

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5138749&viewfull=1#post5138749

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5138983&viewfull=1#post5138983

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5138988&viewfull=1#post5138988

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139010&viewfull=1#post5139010

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139069&viewfull=1#post5139069

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139312&viewfull=1#post5139312

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139477&viewfull=1#post5139477

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139532&viewfull=1#post5139532

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139606&viewfull=1#post5139606

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139651&viewfull=1#post5139651

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139732&viewfull=1#post5139732

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139852&viewfull=1#post5139852

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139858&viewfull=1#post5139858

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139870&viewfull=1#post5139870

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139935&viewfull=1#post5139935

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139949&viewfull=1#post5139949

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5139985&viewfull=1#post5139985

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5140016&viewfull=1#post5140016

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5140124&viewfull=1#post5140124

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5140213&viewfull=1#post5140213

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5140237&viewfull=1#post5140237

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5140532&viewfull=1#post5140532

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5140613&viewfull=1#post5140613

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5140818&viewfull=1#post5140818

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5140977&viewfull=1#post5140977

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5141005&viewfull=1#post5141005

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5141257&viewfull=1#post5141257

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5141971&viewfull=1#post5141971

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142224&viewfull=1#post5142224

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5143763&viewfull=1#post5143763


Screenshots from other sources:


http://hausfeuerfuchs.shivtr.com/gallery_categories/37525



Join us on Wayfinder, Marketplace #1, #2 or #3! :)

nibel
10-22-2013, 06:56 AM
Hearts are returning to the Lahar. To me, the protest attained its primary goal, and I'm satisfied. I'll log off from Wayfinder and go back to the game. I'm aware Glin basically said they are intending to keep it there "for now". When they announce the retirement on the future, I'll weight based on future data if it is enough for me to leave again.

I'm still discussing and talking in the forums about the commendation thing, and still believe it should be changed. But it is no longer a thing that would make me drop the game.

Thanks everyone for the amazing support all this time. And good luck for the ones staying on the bridge.

donblas
10-22-2013, 06:58 AM
Another 120 minutes of Trivia Amazement! These are just too much fun. :)
Some familiar faces tonight - as well as many, many new players!

Tonight's final score card was as follows:
Doneandout 1, Ayngel 3, Stridsvagn 11, Turoneleeve 1, Moonunit 8, War 4 + Eleventy, Vivala 2, Jibbrael 2, Terdbind 2, Pointless 2.000001

.

Thanks for tons of fun Memnir. I hope the sexual assault by multiple dire bears hasn't scarred you for life.

I think Pointless needs a name change now!

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 07:06 AM
Hearts are returning to the Lahar. To me, the protest attained its primary goal, and I'm satisfied. I'll log off from Wayfinder and go back to the game. I'm aware Glin basically said they are intending to keep it there "for now". When they announce the retirement on the future, I'll weight based on future data if it is enough for me to leave again.

I'm still discussing and talking in the forums about the commendation thing, and still believe it should be changed. But it is no longer a thing that would make me drop the game.

Thanks everyone for the amazing support all this time. And good luck for the ones staying on the bridge.

Judging by the response, they'll be gone the second we're not looking. It'll be impossible to change anything at that time. It's important to negotiate all the details now, before the changes are live. This is nothing more than a trick to fool the disappointed players, one they've used consistently in the past.

Except now there's a unique chance to overcome it. That's why I'd urge everyone who still opposes the core of the changes to stay on the bridge and remain active in the discussion.

darthhento
10-22-2013, 07:15 AM
Not moving off the bridge until:

They're BTA.

Drop in ALL epic quests.

We can trade Tokens for Comms.

Reduce the ammount for True Heroic Hearts of Wood.

RedOrm
10-22-2013, 07:21 AM
Not moving off the bridge until:

They're BTA.

Drop in ALL epic quests.

We can trade Tokens for Comms.

Reduce the ammount for True Heroic Hearts of Wood.

This. The response they gave so far is mostly page filler and empty air, they'll need to do a LOT better.

Greetz,
Red Orm

jonqrandom
10-22-2013, 07:21 AM
Hearts are returning to the Lahar.
they are, but there's no guarantee that tokens and fragments will continue to actually drop. is that good enough for you? that would still impact players who don't have stacks of the tokens to turn in.


• Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.(emphasis mine)

they are going to nix tokens for hearts. if you already know this, why wait until they do it? you may not - in fact probably will not find all this support next time, because if we don't get a decent fix for this now, then
a) some of us will have voted with our wallets and feet and simply won't be here, and
b) less of us left will see a point in protesting.

Ungood
10-22-2013, 07:25 AM
On the bright side for Turbine if you act on this wisely and listen to your community, cancel the current planned U20, admit your are wrong about the path you tried to follow and work openly on the new U20. Then due to fact that this is so unseen throughout this genre it would be applauded throughout the whole MMORPG community. Stubbornly try to do your own liking and try mask it through doing it in bits and pieces and not telling us the whole story and just implement it, and lots of us will go.
(I am generally not a doom sayer and think it is mostly overrated but with this I have to agree and will support the players behind this complaint)

They have to go in this direction, look, they won't come out and say it, but here's the reality of things, they have been brutally neglecting their own game, and the biggest aspect of that neglect is the lack of end game. There is simply not enough to do in the "epic levels" and a good deal of it does not feel "epic" anyway. So they noticed that TRing was the big thing, something players do to keep themselves occupied.

They also noticed they were not making money off these TR's, in the sense they were not buying hearts of wood, so with the revision to the TR process (which I would like to add does not affect the Heroic TR at all) they need a way to recapture their investment, and that means they need to make money off the Dev time they put into the Iconic and Epic TRing, that money needs to come from someplace, but since as Glin admitted, Tokens are way to easy for a player to get, we can in a day, havd 20 tokens and be ready to TR, so they need to put in enough of a grind to make getting the heart detrimental enough so that players will question if they would rather buy the heart, or farm for it.

In the end, some players will be glad to farm out 5 even 10 saga's for their heart, that is the way they play, they have all they want, so farming for some minor increase in their power is worth it, however, that player is not who Trubine wants to cater to, that is not the player that Turbine depends on. They depend on players that have the money to spend on the game and question if the time grind is worth the cost.

Sort of like the F2P player willing to spend several hours to farm 1600 favor for 400 TP to get something, and someone else not seeing the valued of the time wasted to farm the favor and just pays the 4 bucks to get what they want.

Both of them thinking the "other" guy, is being played. Because the Favor farmer feels that they are getting it for free, and thus feels like they are wining something for their time and effort in the game, and the person willing to pay thinks the farmer is wasting their life and play time for so little gain.

Turbine is tying to get the person willing to pay to just buy their product to want to just buy the product, while at the same time giving a means to get it for just playing to placate the people who feel the need to play the game in that manner.

The trick with that is the price of things needs to be low enough to make the grind look unappealing. IE: 1600 favor vs 4 dollars.

I understand what Glin is doing, and why he is doing it. It has been an honor to stand on the bridge with you all, and I wish you well if you want to hold out longer, but I got the answer I was looking for. I sincerely wish that things never have to come to this, I wish that Turbine would always put the players first, and always want to move in ways that make us feel appropriated, respected, and valued.

I am not truly angry at Turbine anymore, and I have moved to the point of just being frustrated with them, more exhausted that this seems to be the only way they will realize what they are doing is disruptive and destructive to the game many people want to enjoy.

I guess the biggest thing I take away from this, is that they need to get more in-touch with their players, and really, there is no point in having a design team trying to advance your game if they have no insight into what will appeal to the players.

We shall see what they future brings from here on out. In the end, it's been 3 days of not playing, and honestly, as fun as this was, I don't ever want to have to do this again.

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 07:34 AM
^ Problem is, when they put up a paywall for TR, they are effectively killing what little is left of their "endgame". It is endgame, and players are willing to occupy themselves with it, largely because it doesn't take that much of an investment.

They ARE already milking the HELL out of TR - through XP tomes, XP pots, and XP stones.

nibel
10-22-2013, 07:50 AM
they are going to nix tokens for hearts. if you already know this, why wait until they do it? you may not - in fact probably will not find all this support next time, because if we don't get a decent fix for this now, then
a) some of us will have voted with our wallets and feet and simply won't be here, and
b) less of us left will see a point in protesting.

I voiced my complaints. I look at lama release notes. Anything that I disagree with I complaint and directly question in dev events.

I am aware they intend to drop support to epic tokens since MotU. The situations didn't changed now that the hearts are back. If there is not enough complaints for them to change their minds in the future, and there is not a viable alternative on time sinks compared to the effort to farm 20 tokens, I will leave. Simple as that.

lyrecono
10-22-2013, 08:04 AM
no we won't, many will leave, no more help from vets to learn the game to newbies, game stagnates to a slow death

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 08:09 AM
The most hilarious part of this is that despite all the whining by the hippies, heart of wood will still be removed eventually from token shop. Have fun running epics!

The "funniest" part will be when all servers look like Wayfinder, after all the "hippies" leave. Not that you'd care.

jonqrandom
10-22-2013, 08:11 AM
The most hilarious part of this is that despite all the whining by the hippies, heart of wood will still be removed eventually from token shop. Have fun running epics!
nobody (sensible) is attached to virtual items. nobody cares if we collect epic fishsticks to trade for a heroic helicopter of rebirth. we care how the system works, and the new system works so badly it's ridiculous.
saga-based sucks. BtC sucks. end of.

sha123
10-22-2013, 08:24 AM
The "funniest" part will be when all servers look like Wayfinder, after all the "hippies" leave. Not that you'd care.

Its true i dont, because i can solo 1-28, including pretty much every single ee. However, its still fun to watch people suffer for nothing.

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 08:32 AM
Its true i dont, because i can solo 1-28, including pretty much every single ee. However, its still fun to watch people suffer for nothing.

Cute. Good luck financing the game on your own, too :)

Gremmlynn
10-22-2013, 08:46 AM
I voiced my complaints. I look at lama release notes. Anything that I disagree with I complaint and directly question in dev events.

I am aware they intend to drop support to epic tokens since MotU. The situations didn't changed now that the hearts are back. If there is not enough complaints for them to change their minds in the future, and there is not a viable alternative on time sinks compared to the effort to farm 20 tokens, I will leave. Simple as that.If their game remains easier to play for free than to pay for they have no reason to not leave themselves. As much as we may want the game to eventually be a perpetual TP machine where the favor from one life buys the pots for the next and hearts are easy to farm, that simply gives Turbine any reason to keep paying the power bill on the servers, much less continue with development.

Personally, I don't see their last idea as being workable due to the price point set on true hearts. But if they lower that a bit they might make it.

Lanhelin
10-22-2013, 08:58 AM
media link list (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142323&viewfull=1#post5142323) Update

darthhento
10-22-2013, 08:58 AM
No, what THEY need to do is stop making choices of what quests THEY would like me to run instead of letting ME make MY choice of what quests I want to run. It's a game, I'm the one paying to have MY fun with it.

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 09:02 AM
If their game remains easier to play for free than to pay for they have no reason to not leave themselves. As much as we may want the game to eventually be a perpetual TP machine where the favor from one life buys the pots for the next and hearts are easy to farm, that simply gives Turbine any reason to keep paying the power bill on the servers, much less continue with development.

Honestly, I've always found this argument silly. A plenty of other MMOs manage to do it, and be successful, without milking the players quite so hard.

It may be easy to forget for long-time players, but DDO isn't a true F2P game that makes money off consumables and cosmetics. DDO CHARGES FOR MOST CONTENT. Let that sink in. It'd take about $200-300 just to own all the in-game content (cheaper with sales, so maybe $150-200). Most F2P games offer all of this for free, including major new expansions - look at Aion, look at Neverwinter.

And yet Turbine has one of the most aggressive nickle-and-diming strategies on the market, which at this point can easily rival the lowest of the low among Korean and Chinese developers who design the games as a deliberate money-sink from the ground up.

To recap using examples: GuildWars charges for content, Korean MMO A charges for consumables, DDO charges for both. Therefore, I don't really think the "they need to make money too" argument is valid or applicable. There is a fine line between monetization and keeping the players happy.

Havok.cry
10-22-2013, 09:10 AM
DDOgamer is claiming that all our demands were met and that the protest is over.

Terebinthia
10-22-2013, 09:17 AM
No, what THEY need to do is stop making choices of what quests THEY would like me to run instead of letting ME make MY choice of what quests I want to run. It's a game, I'm the one paying to have MY fun with it.

Exactly this. I've not had time today to craft a response to Glin's post, but I don't feel it addresses the concerns I have remotely. I'll be staying on the bridge.

Tere

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 09:21 AM
DDOgamer is claiming that all our demands were met and that the protest is over.

Saw that. Left a comment. Unfortunate.

HernandoCortez
10-22-2013, 09:25 AM
You're welcome. But this won't happen I guess. If they really wanted to hide this thread, they'd already done it yesterday. At this point I want to thank the invisible moderators for their polishing this thread, deleting the most http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/images/smilies/s_076.gif ridiculous http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/images/smilies/1/ugly.gif Troll-posts tirelessly! Thank you very much! http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/images/smilies/zUZTb9pU.gif

They edited a post with links to other sites. That post had a link to the most forbidden forum here.
Yes, they can't hide this thread once it caught the press attention.

Is it so hard to interact with your playerbase, Turbine? Do you really need to be so egoistic/egotistic? Stop editing/deleting/hiding threads when people don't agree with you.
Propose changes, make polls, let your playerbase decide.

INTERACT. People even waste their time to preview stuff on Lamannia, they point out your flawed updates and you do nothing about it. You let stuff go live and get exploited.

Use your playerbase goodwill. Reward and listen to those who care enough to try and help you instead of sending them away.

Gremmlynn
10-22-2013, 09:43 AM
Honestly, I've always found this argument silly. A plenty of other MMOs manage to do it, and be successful, without milking the players quite so hard.

It may be easy to forget for long-time players, but DDO isn't a true F2P game that makes money off consumables and cosmetics. DDO CHARGES FOR MOST CONTENT. Let that sink in. It'd take about $200-300 just to own all the in-game content (cheaper with sales, so maybe $150-200). Most F2P games offer all of this for free, including major new expansions - look at Aion, look at Neverwinter.

And yet Turbine has one of the most aggressive nickle-and-diming strategies on the market, which at this point can easily rival the lowest of the low among Korean and Chinese developers who design the games as a deliberate money-sink from the ground up.

To recap using examples: GuildWars charges for content, Korean MMO A charges for consumables, DDO charges for both. Therefore, I don't really think the "they need to make money too" argument is valid or applicable. There is a fine line between monetization and keeping the players happy.Except that you are not factoring in how many players those other games have paying "something" and how many this one has. The vast majority of the costs for an MMO are static, the same regardless of whether they have 10 playing customers or 10 million. DDO seems to be a lot closer to the former than the latter.

Also, no store consumables and certainly no store cosmetics, are needed to play and that content is buy once and done. It also costs considerately less than that in my experience. Between first time server points and re-earning points in every character slot every TR or re-roll. New favor available every time new content is had. Only those who want to put no effort into the system are paying what you say. That's not even taking into consideration that not many would even want to have all of it.

Then take into account that TRing, in itself, isn't necessary to play and I don't see why so many think it's something they have some sort of right to do easily for free. What next, free server transfers or name changes?

Havok.cry
10-22-2013, 09:50 AM
TRing, in itself, isn't necessary to play

You and I disagree about this. Many of us here would have quit DDO a long long time ago if we couldn't TR. This game would have died a long long time ago if TR wasn't there to keep us going. It is absolutely necessary to the continuation of this game.

Memnir
10-22-2013, 09:59 AM
TRing, in itself, isn't necessary to playNo it isn't. That's correct.

Me, I hate TRing. Can't stand it, and have only done it once.


For me, this is bigger then my gaming habits or how I feel about TRing though. For me, this is about a trend that has been evolving in DDO game design over the past year or so. This is a trend, and one I don't see stopping unless the Devs understand that it's something that players find unacceptable. I'm on the Bridge not because of this specific change - but because it's what DDO is becoming and will continue to become unless the tide can be turned.



Am I big enough to turn the tide? No. No more then a pebble can stop a wave. But, this game has lots of pebbles to pile up. And hopefully, with a lot of us doing so on the Bridge right now, we can at least get the wave's attention and change it enough to matter.

Chauncey1
10-22-2013, 10:07 AM
You and I disagree about this. Many of us here would have quit DDO a long long time ago if we couldn't TR. This game would have died a long long time ago if TR wasn't there to keep us going. It is absolutely necessary to the continuation of this game.


Agreed.
I have about 2 or 3 toons on my tr short list.
At this point though, it's a wait and see thing.
If they screw the pooch on this, I'll find a new game to waste my time and money on.
If they make it an acceptable change, I'll stick around.

Arnhelm
10-22-2013, 10:17 AM
One of the things I'm waiting to hear is that Fragments and Tokens of The Twelve will continue to drop in Eberron Epic content. Producer Glin did not state that yesterday in his response, he merely said Heroic Hearts would still be available from Lahar in The Twelve.

sha123
10-22-2013, 10:18 AM
No it isn't. That's correct.

Me, I hate TRing. Can't stand it, and have only done it once.


For me, this is bigger then my gaming habits or how I feel about TRing though. For me, this is about a trend that has been evolving in DDO game design over the past year or so. This is a trend, and one I don't see stopping unless the Devs understand that it's something that players find unacceptable. I'm on the Bridge not because of this specific change - but because it's what DDO is becoming and will continue to become unless the tide can be turned.



Am I big enough to turn the tide? No. No more then a pebble can stop a wave. But, this game has lots of pebbles to pile up. And hopefully, with a lot of us doing so on the Bridge right now, we can at least get the wave's attention and change it enough to matter.

In other words, ur just wasting ur time. Have fun doing it.

ReaperAlexEU
10-22-2013, 10:20 AM
One of the things I'm waiting to hear is that Fragments and Tokens of The Twelve will continue to drop in Eberron Epic content. Producer Glin did not state that yesterday in his response, he merely said Heroic Hearts would still be available from Lahar in The Twelve.

they never said they would stop, they can still be used to buy augments. the only change they proposed was removing hearts from the trade in list.

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 10:23 AM
Except that you are not factoring in how many players those other games have paying "something" and how many this one has. The vast majority of the costs for an MMO are static, the same regardless of whether they have 10 playing customers or 10 million. DDO seems to be a lot closer to the former than the latter.

You are correct. Perhaps a look at WHY the game has so few players left is long overdue? Otherwise they're just feeding a vicious cycle. First thing a business should consider is how to make the product more attractive, not how to charge more.

Rest of your posts pretty much describes how you can substitute money with time, and is of no consequence. TP/hour while favor farming is so low that even a minimum-wage job would give better opportunity cost.

Arnhelm
10-22-2013, 10:23 AM
they never said they would stop, they can still be used to buy augments. the only change they proposed was removing hearts from the trade in list.
Good point. I hadn't considered that as a part of this change. Thank you.

Kalimah
10-22-2013, 10:30 AM
they never said they would stop, they can still be used to buy augments. the only change they proposed was removing hearts from the trade in list.

It would be nice if the augments were worth a ****.....I've got loads of tokens and frags..the aguments they can purchase are garbage.

Chauncey1
10-22-2013, 11:08 AM
In other words, ur just wasting ur time. Have fun doing it.

You are the one wasting your time trying to discourage us.

Gremmlynn
10-22-2013, 12:07 PM
You are correct. Perhaps a look at WHY the game has so few players left is long overdue? Otherwise they're just feeding a vicious cycle. First thing a business should consider is how to make the product more attractive, not how to charge more.Make a new game is about the only feasible answer. At 3 years old the f2p hybrid system worked to bring in new blood. At 6 even a FR expansion didn't really do much. At 7 there are to many games just shinier to expect any investment in bringing in new blood to be worth doing.


Rest of your posts pretty much describes how you can substitute money with time, and is of no consequence. TP/hour while favor farming is so low that even a minimum-wage job would give better opportunity cost.Which is what I think they are aiming for. Spend a few bucks, over and above what TPs are earned getting to 20, or spend an inordinate amount of time grinding.

Chai
10-22-2013, 12:55 PM
You and I disagree about this. Many of us here would have quit DDO a long long time ago if we couldn't TR. This game would have died a long long time ago if TR wasn't there to keep us going. It is absolutely necessary to the continuation of this game.

If Turbine would not have untethered the financial success of the game from the quality of the game itself, there would be more quests, higher quality content, and better + higher quantity of loot being released on a regular basis. This is how all other MMOs do it.

Instead, they pushed quality of the game as a profitable entity onto the back burner, and tethered the finalcial success of the game to store bought items. When this happened, some kind of hamster wheel was needed to keep players playing, because lack of attention to game quality was not going to do so.

The only reason TRing was "needed" is because no other incentive existed to keep playing for many people who had done it all already. Had other incentive existed, like regular content releases and QoL patch focus, TRing would not have been needed in the first place.

Chai
10-22-2013, 12:59 PM
In other words, ur just wasting ur time. Have fun doing it.

Customers are the most important people in any business equation, and when they provide feedback about what they want in the product, it is never a waste of time.

Ausdoerrt
10-22-2013, 01:19 PM
Well then, if anyone needed any more proof, Cordovan has made a post that makes the intentions of this change completely clear:


In regards to Tokens of the Twelve: Tokens of the Twelve will continue to drop when Update 20 is released. One change will be that the Spinner of Shadows quest chain will no longer drop Tokens, since it is part of a Saga, so you'll get Commendations when you complete the Saga that these quests are a part of.

Bolded for emphasis. Easy to see where this is going. It would appear that they don't care a lick about how many people they lose, and just seek to cut their losses. I will not purchase another TP in the game, and will enjoy it on and off until it becomes unplayable due to more bad decisions or server shutdown.

P.S. A rather memorable 1000th post, I see.




Make a new game is about the only feasible answer. At 3 years old the f2p hybrid system worked to bring in new blood. At 6 even a FR expansion didn't really do much. At 7 there are to many games just shinier to expect any investment in bringing in new blood to be worth doing.

Actually, if we're to trust DDOracle, the game was doing quite well at MoTU release, which brought some new blood as well. It's the poor follow-up, the mess of bugs, and questionable newer content - i.e. the aftermath - which caused a mass exodus.


Which is what I think they are aiming for. Spend a few bucks, over and above what TPs are earned getting to 20, or spend an inordinate amount of time grinding.

This translates to a sad, slow death of the game while a handful of dedicated/addicted players prop it up until server upkeep becomes too much. Most will realize that ROI is better elsewhere, especially with so many highly anticipated MMO releases in late 2013/early 2014.

redspecter23
10-22-2013, 01:34 PM
Then take into account that TRing, in itself, isn't necessary to play and I don't see why so many think it's something they have some sort of right to do easily for free. What next, free server transfers or name changes?

Nothing in this game is necessary to play. I don't have to level up to 4. I don't have to loot chests. I don't have to group. I don't have to play epic. I don't have to TR. I don't have to play at all. Saying players don't have to TR is the same as all these other things. It's a poor argument. Some choose not to do it and for some it's a core element of the game. There are no goals in an MMO other than what you set for yourself. I can't tell you what your game goals are, just as you can't change someone's mind about what their goals are. For some that includes TR currently.

Scope333
10-22-2013, 01:40 PM
However, Scope33 you got to make your trolling less obvious to be effective. Come on, October join date and 3 posts.

I spend most of my time re: DDO actually playing the game rather than posting. I'm weird that way.

Raidiant
10-22-2013, 01:56 PM
Well none of this would have been a problem if people were happy to play post level 20 content. People are TRing because they enjoy the Pre level 20 quest a lot more as they
are way more fun and less grindy. I also fail to see how this will help Turbine at all, people who are inclined to play F2P won't want to suddenly now pay for TR. If they TR at least there is a chance that they might buy a pack, or some premium content.

Also I am sure TR characters make up the majority of newbies and low levels, and people reexperiencing the game from the start. Making TR cost real money will effectively put this cycle of players away, stuck at the end game with quests they do not want to be playing.

I can see Turbines logic in doing this, but i'm afraid they will get some cash in exchange for basically shortening the life of DDO's remaining time (which could be their goal). We have no idea how much revenue they are getting at the moment, there are certainly alot of F2P players who live on packs purchased ages ago, who are not interested in buying epic level content.. Though I am P2P, I can imagine our number are limited and this may be coming from the top of WB wanting to see more profits from a legacy product well past it's expiry date.

With the expansion content and epic levels being so low quality compared to pre level 20, its hard to imagine a way out for DDO. The only way to improve revenue is to get loyal players spending with quality content as good as the original DDO, or significantly revamp the new player experience and launch a marketing campaign (both which costs money that isn't justified on a game of this age). I do see DDO as a game thats fairly unique, has a lot of depth and lots of content, however Turbine has done a poor job of extending it unfortunately. I just wish the post level 20 content was more thought out.

patang01
10-22-2013, 02:03 PM
Customers are the most important people in any business equation, and when they provide feedback about what they want in the product, it is never a waste of time.

This

Maybe Turbine want to go back to operate out of a garage making freeware for friends and family but once you ignore customers the writing is on the wall.

Some customers demands are of course silly but when so many echo the same it's a safe bet something is terribly wrong.

Arnhelm
10-22-2013, 02:04 PM
...I can see Turbines logic in doing this, but i'm afraid they will get some cash in exchange for basically shortening the life of DDO's remaining time (which could be their goal)...
Somewhere they failed to see the benefit of now money vs the potential of future money. Econ 101.

The now money is going away quickly if as many people are cancelling subs as seems to be the case. More, fewer Premium players will continue to spend money on a game that isn't fun for them due to forced running of P2P content.

zDragonz
10-22-2013, 02:04 PM
My first post in this thread.

I read what Glin had to say and I am assuming that tokens are going to be phased out in the future and a new form of currency is the ultimate goal. I am glad that the Twelve will still have the Heroic

Hearts after the Update. I hope that the decision to keep the Heroic Hearts does not include taking them away after tokens are eventually phased out. What is the ultimate goal in having another

currency? This just seems confusing and trying to fix something that is not broken. If I had any say in it, I would have the entire games' Epic content drop token fragments and still include one complete

token in named chests or a d100 random roll of fragments just like it is now in Eberron. Sagas could also have 17 Tokens, for example, as a reward choice. The decision to switch to a new form is being

thrust in our face at a fast pace and just seems doomed to be a failure. I dunno what else to say about it.

The switch just seems to make everything super complicated and extra work for the Team that makes this game.

I want to know more as to why it is so important to phase out tokens? Makes no sense to me. More info would be nice.

Worldcrafter
10-22-2013, 02:08 PM
I spend most of my time re: DDO actually playing the game rather than posting. I'm weird that way.

So... why are you posting again, exactly? You've already established that you disapprove of the particular venue of protest that these players are taking; your point is already made, so any further posting is sheer redundancy. I don't really see your goal to be civil conversation, given how inflammatory some of your comments have been toward others. What the protesters are doing doesn't have a particularly profound effect on you personally, does it? What they do with their free time, is it impeding you somehow? Is their absence preventing you from finding a suitable party to play with, is that the source of your venomous posting? Are you unable to enjoy the game without the company of some or all of these people protesting? Is their presence causing your questing to lag or something? It seems more then simply the expression of free speech, since you've chosen this particular thread to focus your posting on. Your last twelve posts at least have been exclusively to this thread. Should your posting be really perceived as a cry for attention, a desire to socialize, but driven by a need for negative attention? Or is it a vain attempt of trolling the protesters, to provide some personal entertainment with imagined thoughts that people will be outraged and incensed by your comments? I am earnestly curious as to what has driven you to be so fixated on something that doesn't seem to impact you directly at this point in time.

Flavilandile
10-22-2013, 02:09 PM
They edited a post with links to other sites. That post had a link to the most forbidden forum here.

Nope, I have it from a good source that the Author removed it before it was too late.



Me, I hate TRing. Can't stand it, and have only done it once.

For me, this is bigger then my gaming habits or how I feel about TRing though. For me, this is about a trend that has been evolving in DDO game design over the past year or so. This is a trend, and one I don't see stopping unless the Devs understand that it's something that players find unacceptable. I'm on the Bridge not because of this specific change - but because it's what DDO is becoming and will continue to become unless the tide can be turned.

Am I big enough to turn the tide? No. No more then a pebble can stop a wave. But, this game has lots of pebbles to pile up. And hopefully, with a lot of us doing so on the Bridge right now, we can at least get the wave's attention and change it enough to matter.

I'm with Memnir on that one, I'm not that fond of TRing, I have one single TR character ( was Cleric, is Druid... because historically in PnP she was a Druid ).
But all the system changes that were forced on us over the last two years are, from my point of view, bad for the game.


they never said they would stop, they can still be used to buy augments. the only change they proposed was removing hearts from the trade in list.

Well They also never said that Lahar would stop selling Catalysts when they made the Augment Change... Still they removed the Catalysts to make sure we had to change our items to the new system if we wanted to slot them.
( with the relevant clean up of slots already filled and the changes in new systems )

Jatner
10-22-2013, 02:10 PM
The thing is that Turbine could easily address the decline in VIP membership, while also encouraging more people to play the new content.

Simply forget about the one-off cash injection that the expansions provide and include them in the VIP package, and offer them for premium players through TP purchase as with other packs.

The current approach seems designed to drive away VIP players and persuade premium players to spend less. Not exactly a good strategy for a successful business

Arianka
10-22-2013, 02:30 PM
DDOgamer is claiming that all our demands were met and that the protest is over.

what did u expect?

see who runs the site.

Scope333
10-22-2013, 02:32 PM
So... why are you posting again, exactly? You've already established that you disapprove of the particular venue of protest that these players are taking; your point is already made, so any further posting is sheer redundancy. I don't really see your goal to be civil conversation, given how inflammatory some of your comments have been toward others. What the protesters are doing doesn't have a particularly profound effect on you personally, does it? What they do with their free time, is it impeding you somehow? Is their absence preventing you from finding a suitable party to play with, is that the source of your venomous posting? Are you unable to enjoy the game without the company of some or all of these people protesting? Is their presence causing your questing to lag or something? It seems more then simply the expression of free speech, since you've chosen this particular thread to focus your posting on. Your last twelve posts at least have been exclusively to this thread. Should your posting be really perceived as a cry for attention, a desire to socialize, but driven by a need for negative attention? Or is it a vain attempt of trolling the protesters, to provide some personal entertainment with imagined thoughts that people will be outraged and incensed by your comments? I am earnestly curious as to what has driven you to be so fixated on something that doesn't seem to impact you directly at this point in time.

I was replying to a claim that I was merely trolling and that somehow only having a few posts invalidates anything I had to say on the issue. If redundancy annoys you so, why the long screed calling me a troll? I've already been called that in this thread so are you not now guilty of the same redundancy you accuse me of? I also am "earnestly curious" as to why the behavior of a "troll" has you so "fixated" on said troll. Thank you though for taking the time to review my posting history. I'm flattered my opinions may have opened your eyes and encouraged you to do some research.

Worldcrafter
10-22-2013, 02:49 PM
I was replying to a claim that I was merely trolling and that somehow only having a few posts invalidates anything I had to say on the issue. If redundancy annoys you so, why the long screed calling me a troll? I've already been called that in this thread so are you not now guilty of the same redundancy you accuse me of? I also am "earnestly curious" as to why the behavior of a "troll" has you so "fixated" on said troll. Thank you though for taking the time to review my posting history. I'm flattered my opinions may have opened your eyes and encouraged you to do some research.

Please rest assured, I am most certainly not annoyed by your presence or redundancy; as I have claimed before, I am merely curious. My curiosity stems from my desire to write and that I enjoy role playing. These factors combine together, so I attempt to make characters I write about feel more like a separate entity then just a projection of myself. This, in turn, leads me to wonder about the human condition, and what makes certain people tick.

I have not called you a troll, but it is a possibility I have not ruled out, particularly with the sardonic and condescending nature of your posts toward others. If you'll forgive the brutal honesty, prior to posting I just rolled my eyes and skipped your post whenever I saw one coming up. It was the frequency of your posts that made me pause and wonder what has kept you coming back so if you were so against their actions. That, in turn, made me contemplate why you kept posting.

I apologize for the indignation that I have caused you, but it does go a long way to answering my question. Thank you for your time.

Scope333
10-22-2013, 02:59 PM
My curiosity stems from my desire to write and that I enjoy role playing.

Good luck with your writing.

Silken-Akira
10-22-2013, 03:09 PM
Following the forums to see how this is evolving. Reading the first and only dev post today and it made things worse.
You are really screwing the f2p players.
Me personally didn't care. Because I was VIP. Bought the 2 packs (yes even the terrible one) and I am farming for the first time for a TR (for me it Goes slow) so yes I was thinking About maybe buying one.
But the way They are now treating the userbase. I decided to stop paying and supporting a company That chooses this road.
So till They learn to show some respect no money from me and if it really doesn't improve I Will be off

In That regard went to the link That was in the latest chronicle http://www.maximumpc.com/16_best_free_play_mmos_2013#slide-5
And saw the latest comment to be one About the current situation....funny

(Sorry About bad writing, done quick from IPad)

Darkrok
10-22-2013, 03:21 PM
The thing is that Turbine could easily address the decline in VIP membership, while also encouraging more people to play the new content.

Simply forget about the one-off cash injection that the expansions provide and include them in the VIP package, and offer them for premium players through TP purchase as with other packs.

The current approach seems designed to drive away VIP players and persuade premium players to spend less. Not exactly a good strategy for a successful business

Hrm...I wasn't looking at these issues from a VIP/premium perspective but here's an interesting thought - make TR'ing in all its forms free to VIP's. That would certainly boost VIP numbers, would not cost Premium players anything or grant anything to VIP not available to Premium in-game, seems like a win all around.

Worldcrafter
10-22-2013, 03:29 PM
Good luck with your writing.

Thank you most kindly.


Hrm...I wasn't looking at these issues from a VIP/premium perspective but here's an interesting thought - make TR'ing in all its forms free to VIP's. That would certainly boost VIP numbers, would not cost Premium players anything or grant anything to VIP not available to Premium in-game, seems like a win all around.

For some reason I can't quite fathom just yet, having VIP get all of them free feels a little off to me. Giving them heroic, even iconic, sure, I'm fine with that. I'm just a little iffy on having the epic TR thrown in as well. Despite my reservations, the idea is a sound one, and I agree that it would help promote subscription rates.

ironegrip
10-22-2013, 03:50 PM
Cute. Good luck financing the game on your own, too :)

+1

wish more people took the time to think a bit before posting, but hey, that's just me.

patang01
10-22-2013, 03:57 PM
Hrm...I wasn't looking at these issues from a VIP/premium perspective but here's an interesting thought - make TR'ing in all its forms free to VIP's. That would certainly boost VIP numbers, would not cost Premium players anything or grant anything to VIP not available to Premium in-game, seems like a win all around.

Even 1 free of each per month would be enough to boost VIP numbers (Heroic, iconic and Epic). Kind of like a buffet, most people can only eat 1 but pay for 3 but there are some that can do 2-3 per month. Either way it would be a easy and savvy way of increasing dependable revenue to the bottom line.

That's ontop of all the pots and whatnot people would use doing what they already do.

Tscheuss
10-22-2013, 04:12 PM
Even 1 free of each per month would be enough to boost VIP numbers (Heroic, iconic and Epic). Kind of like a buffet, most people can only eat 1 but pay for 3 but there are some that can do 2-3 per month. Either way it would be a easy and savvy way of increasing dependable revenue to the bottom line.

That's ontop of all the pots and whatnot people would use doing what they already do.

While they are at it, Turbine could thrown in a couple more packs as updates instead of expansion. Free for VIP's to play, and purchasable by others. :)

Ungood
10-22-2013, 04:23 PM
Hrm...I wasn't looking at these issues from a VIP/premium perspective but here's an interesting thought - make TR'ing in all its forms free to VIP's. That would certainly boost VIP numbers, would not cost Premium players anything or grant anything to VIP not available to Premium in-game, seems like a win all around.

The main point of contention is they really can't. They need to make some money on this venture, however, they made no investment on heroic TRing, so their was no justification upon their part to increase it's price, while I agree that they need to put in some means to inspire people to purchase their 'new hearts' to reclaim expenditures the only question at this point is are they collecting golden eggs or will they choke the goose.

In the mean time, we did something wonderful, and that was we made our voice heard. Kudos to everyone that was there!

Havok.cry
10-22-2013, 11:23 PM
If Turbine would not have untethered the financial success of the game from the quality of the game itself, there would be more quests, higher quality content, and better + higher quantity of loot being released on a regular basis. This is how all other MMOs do it.

Instead, they pushed quality of the game as a profitable entity onto the back burner, and tethered the finalcial success of the game to store bought items. When this happened, some kind of hamster wheel was needed to keep players playing, because lack of attention to game quality was not going to do so. True (although I despise every other MMO I have every played so I might disagree on our opinion of there quality, but they are certainly successful that is for sure. There is a reason I only play DDO, and when my time here is over I won't be going to another MMO, I will just be done with them all entirely.)


The only reason TRing was "needed" is because no other incentive existed to keep playing for many people who had done it all already. Had other incentive existed, like regular content releases and QoL patch focus, TRing would not have been needed in the first place.

I can not speak for others, but regardless of the quality of the game, but when I hit cap, I would have stopped playing if TR had not existed. I know many many others that felt the same way.

It was never about gaining infinitesimal bits of power. It was about being able to log onto the same character and run the lower level quests I liked so much again at level, but using the toys I had worked so hard to gain in my previous life.

TRing is the only reason I ever ground out gear in the past. I don't grind much any more, for any reason, but I do love returning to play my favorite content on my favorite characters and that is the only reason I continue to log on. I have no idea if I am in the majority on this, I assume I am not, but I know for a fact that I am not alone in my opinion on this.

Memnir
10-22-2013, 11:41 PM
Still going strong on the Bridge. :)
We've still got 3 Marketplace instances up!



Trivia Night Round 3 is looking good for tomorrow night, as well. Thinking 7:00pm EST this time!

Lanhelin
10-23-2013, 12:01 AM
The occupy bridge event now lasts non-stop mindblasting 96 hours on Wayfinder, Marketplace #1, #2 and #3.

If you are interested, take a look at the Occupy Stormreach Press Review (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142323&viewfull=1#post5142323) and the chronological Screenshot Collection (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142509&viewfull=1#post5142509).


Welcome to Day 5! :)


Edit: Some in-between-kudos can be found here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428642-Time-to-say-quot-thank-you!-quot-to-all-that-support-Occupy-Stormreach).

Memnir
10-23-2013, 12:04 AM
Official Trivia Event Round 3 Thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428680-Bridge-Trivia-Event-ROUND-THREE!) can be found here. :)


Come out and join Memnir the Dancing Trivia Bear for some quality questioning and support the cause!





http://i.imgur.com/HMOHIiF.jpg

Qhualor
10-23-2013, 12:06 AM
yep, still got people standing on the bridge on Wayfinder and still, yes, still people are joining in this cause. unfortunately, some have left the bridge and moved on to something other than DDO, as they said before logging off, after Producer Glins response on Monday. however those that remain still await confirmation from those still working on a compromise with the TR system to decide if we will continue playing DDO or moving on to whatever makes us happy in our free time. hopefully Producer Glin and the rest of the team can present something we all can agree on so we can get back into DDO and play the game.

Nestroy
10-23-2013, 12:15 AM
If the short term goal was to force Turbine to bury any ideas of reworking their commendation / TRing system, the protests could be considered a fail. But that never has been the goal.

The goal is to give players a voice.

A voice for protesting the blatand money grab of the U20 TR system.
A voice for the bad feelings of many players on where DDO is steered by Turbine lately.
A voice for changes that make DDO remain playable for a majority of existing players.

And I think the voice has been heard.

And therefore the Occupy Bridge Movement is a success.

RTFM
10-23-2013, 12:27 AM
Today I had a quick look at the "Occupy Stormreach" turnout.

Is it me or the "occupy event" mirroring the player base in general right now....i.e.: dwindling number of participants?

Lanhelin
10-23-2013, 12:34 AM
Today I had a quick look at the "Occupy Stormreach" turnout.

Is it me or the "occupy event" mirroring the player base in general right now....i.e.: dwindling number of participants?

It's a matter of time zones - for most european players a new working day has started, while North America is sleeping. It goes up and down with players visible on the bridge. Peak times are around 4pm EST till around 7pm EST. And not all players do the quit y/n afk too.

Dandonk
10-23-2013, 03:41 AM
Today I had a quick look at the "Occupy Stormreach" turnout.

Is it me or the "occupy event" mirroring the player base in general right now....i.e.: dwindling number of participants?

You are quite right that we are fewer than before Glin's double-speak post. It seems some people are satisfied with having to run 80 quests instead of 450, and do not care about BTA, Sagas being mandatory, the devaluation of old epics and house C challenges, and the rest of our concerns.

But there are still new members joining, and apart from the initial leaving of the people who are very easily satisfied, I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe this is dying out.

We shall not be moved!

EDIT; With Mem just announcing another round of Trivia, I expect a good turn out this evening :)

sha123
10-23-2013, 04:06 AM
looool....silly protest was unsuccessful. Nothing surprising.

Dandonk
10-23-2013, 04:10 AM
The bridge is below us, we shall not be moved :)

A thank you to all the awesome crowd there, past present and future - you've really caused me to love this community even more :)

We shall not be moved!

Ausdoerrt
10-23-2013, 04:14 AM
And therefore the Occupy Bridge Movement is a success.

Players have always had a voice, the question is whether anyone listens. The fact that it took 300+ people and 60+ hours to even get any sort of response is in no way a good thing. In other games a handful of concerned forum posts would've been sufficient. The fact that the response did little to address player concerns is anything BUT a "success".


You are quite right that we are fewer than before Glin's double-speak post. It seems some people are satisfied

Or disillusioned and are either already gone or squeezing the last bits of fun from their investments before moving on.

Silken-Akira
10-23-2013, 04:54 AM
We at least have 1 winner already....

My wife loves the fact I cancelled my VIP and not really play at the moment :)
On the other hand my pnp friends guild are mostly all F2P and so left the last couple of months (we are only left with 2 man now)

Silken-Akira
10-23-2013, 07:52 AM
As the intention of the protest was to make them listen think about the concerns we had, I don't think the majority of us had the intention to have our presence have an impact on other players.
With following up with all that goes on around this topic. I do see also a lot of complaints of why it had to be on this server( because it is so small and almost dead, etc)

I would propose that if this makes sense someone who knows a bit about what server is best for this and with least impact for other players suggest maybe a new server to move this too.
(again if this makes sense, I suppose a lot of people with deeper insight will say why or why not we should do this )

let's show Turbine that we do listen to others and try our best in comparison !

RedOrm
10-23-2013, 08:23 AM
As the intention of the protest was to make them listen think about the concerns we had, I don't think the majority of us had the intention to have our presence have an impact on other players.
With following up with all that goes on around this topic. I do see also a lot of complaints of why it had to be on this server( because it is so small and almost dead, etc)

I would propose that if this makes sense someone who knows a bit about what server is best for this and with least impact for other players suggest maybe a new server to move this too.
(again if this makes sense, I suppose a lot of people with deeper insight will say why or why not we should do this )

let's show Turbine that we do listen to others and try our best in comparison !

The reason we picked Wayfinder was part coincidence (the first person to sit on the bridge was a native), part design: as it's the smallest, most quiet server we'd be the least disruptive to other players. That is also why, when instance 1 began to get laggy due to the crowd, we split the party to instance 2 and shortly after to instance 3 when it spawned. We're still keeping all 3 open for precisely that reason: so those that just want to play are not hindered by us. So I think we're already doing what you are suggesting :)

But if you can give a good reason why we should move to a different server, please share it.

Greetz,
Red Orm

Silken-Akira
10-23-2013, 08:38 AM
The reason we picked Wayfinder was part coincidence (the first person to sit on the bridge was a native), part design: as it's the smallest, most quiet server we'd be the least disruptive to other players. That is also why, when instance 1 began to get laggy due to the crowd, we split the party to instance 2 and shortly after to instance 3 when it spawned. We're still keeping all 3 open for precisely that reason: so those that just want to play are not hindered by us. So I think we're already doing what you are suggesting :)

But if you can give a good reason why we should move to a different server, please share it.

Greetz,
Red Orm
Greetz,
Red Orm

Got no reason myself. Just saw the complaint from time to time. and thought to bring it up. Like I said I have not enough insight on how big some servers are and the impact of such.
But thanks for the insight because shows for me that it is taken into account and we are trying to keep any impact away from other players.

HernandoCortez
10-23-2013, 08:43 AM
You are quite right that we are fewer than before Glin's double-speak post. It seems some people are satisfied with having to run 80 quests instead of 450, and do not care about BTA, Sagas being mandatory, the devaluation of old epics and house C challenges, and the rest of our concerns.

Exactly. They're still trying to fool everyone, as they did in the past.

slarden
10-23-2013, 09:21 AM
You are quite right that we are fewer than before Glin's double-speak post. It seems some people are satisfied with having to run 80 quests instead of 450, and do not care about BTA, Sagas being mandatory, the devaluation of old epics and house C challenges, and the rest of our concerns.

But there are still new members joining, and apart from the initial leaving of the people who are very easily satisfied, I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe this is dying out.

We shall not be moved!

EDIT; With Mem just announcing another round of Trivia, I expect a good turn out this evening :)

I haven't participated and have no plans to participate, but that doesn't mean I don't care about the issue. I just think we need to give the dev team a chance to work it out. I am not even sure if Turbine's goal of this change is social engineering or revenue generation - or possibly both. Either way it seems to be a major miscalculation on their part and I think they will come around.

I just think the official topic thread is a better place to make my thoughts heard instead of a bridge on Wayfinder.

Dandonk
10-23-2013, 09:26 AM
I haven't participated and have no plans to participate, but that doesn't mean I don't care about the issue. I just think we need to give the dev team a chance to work it out. I am not even sure if Turbine's goal of this change is social engineering or revenue generation - or possibly both. Either way it seems to be a major miscalculation on their part and I think they will come around.

I just think the official topic thread is a better place to make my thoughts heard instead of a bridge on Wayfinder.

I disagree. I think making a statement, even a virtual one, is a powerful tool. That does not mean we shouldn't give constructive feedback and voice our concerns in a civil manner in the proper threads, but the extra leverage that comes from the media coverage and the extra visibility this adds to the issue at hand is not to be discounted.

As for their motivations and intentions with this change...

"I know of no way to judge the future but by the past."

The previous incidents of Offer Wall and other such things lead me to be, shall we say, sceptical. It also leads me to believe that the only way to get change is to make just the kind of statement we have.

Chai
10-23-2013, 09:56 AM
looool....silly protest was unsuccessful. Nothing surprising.

If the definition of unsuccessful is: coverage in multiple media outlets, attention on facebook, and producer response within 24 hours of return to work on monday, then yeah, I guess you could call it unsuccessful.

The attempted instigation and trolling of those sitting in on the other hand, fits the real definition of unsuccessful. The same dude commented over 100 times during the time I was there about how he thought "crybabies were only in WOW, but he sees they are now in DDo too." This was the best he could come up with in 5 days?

ReaperAlexEU
10-23-2013, 10:21 AM
If the definition of unsuccessful is: coverage in multiple media outlets, attention on facebook, and producer response within 24 hours of return to work on monday, then yeah, I guess you could call it unsuccessful.

The attempted instigation and trolling of those sitting in on the other hand, fits the real definition of unsuccessful. The same dude commented over 100 times during the time I was there about how he thought "crybabies were only in WOW, but he sees they are now in DDo too." This was the best he could come up with in 5 days?

don't feed the trolls, though hjeeling them seems to be acceptable

Ausdoerrt
10-23-2013, 10:33 AM
Another post from DDO Gamer to add to our growing list: www.gamergeoff.com/the-last-reincarnation-rebellion-post-i-will-write-today/

Can't say I agree with everything he says, but I do retract (and encourage everyone to do so) any suspicions about his integrity. He may be biased, but it looks like his opinion - Turbine wouldn't have published anything about bannings, or anything strongly grounded in the players' perspective at all, really.

sha123
10-23-2013, 11:18 AM
If the definition of unsuccessful is: coverage in multiple media outlets, attention on facebook, and producer response within 24 hours of return to work on monday, then yeah, I guess you could call it unsuccessful.

The attempted instigation and trolling of those sitting in on the other hand, fits the real definition of unsuccessful. The same dude commented over 100 times during the time I was there about how he thought "crybabies were only in WOW, but he sees they are now in DDo too." This was the best he could come up with in 5 days?

loool, you guys change the motive of the protest so many times, its confusing. First, it was regarding heart of wood change. After many more transformations, you have arrived at media attention. Hilarious! Fact of the matter is that heart of wood system is going to change. Hence, your protest was unsuccessful!

Ungood
10-23-2013, 11:23 AM
If the definition of unsuccessful is: coverage in multiple media outlets, attention on facebook, and producer response within 24 hours of return to work on monday, then yeah, I guess you could call it unsuccessful.

I have to agree with you there Chai, in many ways, the Sit-In did everything many wanted from it, it showed Turbine that we as players are not as frayed as they thought, that we will respond to things we don't like, and that their antics are becoming less and less acceptable, they need to be on their game better then they have been. Pun intended.

With that put out, I would like to remind you old friend, responding to Trolls, makes them successful in their own eyes.

Cauthey_No_CCInfo
10-23-2013, 11:38 AM
I have to agree with you there Chai, in many ways, the Sit-In did everything many wanted from it, it showed Turbine that we as players are not as frayed as they thought, that we will respond to things we don't like, and that their antics are becoming less and less acceptable, they need to be on their game better then they have been. Pun intended.

With that put out, I would like to remind you old friend, responding to Trolls, makes them successful in their own eyes.

While the protest has accomplished some things, I am just afraid that any real wins here are fleeting. We certainly get their attention, and got them to come to the table. However, I feel that maybe we have "raised the bar" on the kind of actions it will take to get them to the table again. And now, to get them to listen to us for the next time, it will require a full-scale protest, and perhaps even more.

Chai
10-23-2013, 11:43 AM
loool, you guys change the motive of the protest so many times, its confusing. First, it was regarding heart of wood change. After many more transformations, you have arrived at media attention. Hilarious! Fact of the matter is that heart of wood system is going to change. Hence, your protest was unsuccessful!

Youre not understanding the difference between the issue that caused the protest, and the result of the protest.

The issue was the heart of wood change. It has always been about this issue - and has never changed.

The result of the protest was multiple media coverage and a response from the producer. So far. It isnt over yet.

Heart of wood system is "going to" change? Just like the madstone boots changed? Oops. yeah strike one. Just like the XP after TR changed. Burrrn, strike 2. Just like keeping tomes after TRing. Yea players got their way on that one as well. Strike 3 - off the plate, next batter.

Turbine has a case history of coming up with terribad ideas that get rejected by the player base and they have reverted many of them due to overwhelming lack of support for the new machanic.

You say its confusing - likely because of not being aware of the case history of changes being reverted when not supported, as well as not having a real position on the issue other than attempted instigation. Your error is youre passing off the change as fact, when it hasnt happened yet.

Oh, and Hilarious® is owned by Chai, and since you used it, I want my two dollars. :p

slarden
10-23-2013, 11:44 AM
If the definition of unsuccessful is: coverage in multiple media outlets, attention on facebook, and producer response within 24 hours of return to work on monday, then yeah, I guess you could call it unsuccessful.

The attempted instigation and trolling of those sitting in on the other hand, fits the real definition of unsuccessful. The same dude commented over 100 times during the time I was there about how he thought "crybabies were only in WOW, but he sees they are now in DDo too." This was the best he could come up with in 5 days?

The forum outrage would have garnered a response regardless of the bridge thing. Honestly I think we would be in exactly the same place with or without people parked on a wayfinder bridge.

I don't think this form of protest is bad, I just think you and others are giving it more credit for a response than warranted.

Chauncey1
10-23-2013, 11:46 AM
While the protest has accomplished some things, I am just afraid that any real wins here are fleeting. We certainly get their attention, and got them to come to the table. However, I feel that maybe we have "raised the bar" on the kind of actions it will take to get them to the table again. And now, to get them to listen to us for the next time, it will require a full-scale protest, and perhaps even more.

If that is the case, and they won't come to the table without us having to raise holy hell every time, then they will only cause more players to leave.
Nobody wins.

sha123
10-23-2013, 11:48 AM
Youre not understanding the difference between the issue that caused the protest, and the result of the protest.

The issue was the heart of wood change. It has always been about this issue - and has never changed.

The result of the protest was multiple media coverage and a response from the producer. So far. It isnt over yet.

Heart of wood system is "going to" change? Just like the madstone boots changed? Oops. yeah strike one. Just like the XP after TR changed. Burrrn, strike 2. Just like keeping tomes after TRing. Yea players got their way on that one as well. Strike 3 - off the plate, next batter.

Turbine has a case history of coming up with terribad ideas that get rejected by the player base and they have reverted many of them due to overwhelming lack of support for the new machanic.

You say its confusing - likely because of not being aware of the case history of changes being reverted when not supported, as well as not having a real position on the issue other than instigation.

That's not the point. The point is Heart of wood will still be removed despite your protests. Hence, it was unsuccessful. The most you can say is that you got Turbine's attention. Forum flaming would have been sufficient for that. Hence, standing around on a bridge did not accomplish your goal which was to "stop the heart of wood trade from being changed."

I don't see any difference in the player base still playing after excluding you protesters. You don'r represent the player base.

Dandonk
10-23-2013, 11:55 AM
Don't forget Mem's Trivia tonight! Come one, come all!

We shall not be moved :)

Lanhelin
10-23-2013, 12:03 PM
The bridge protest now lasts more than 108 hours!


Take a look at the updated Occupy Stormreach Press Review (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142323&viewfull=1#post5142323) and the Screenshot Collection (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428300-Occupy-Stormreach-grows!?p=5142509&viewfull=1#post5142509).


Kudos to the participants (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428642-Time-to-say-quot-thank-you!-quot-to-all-that-support-Occupy-Stormreach) showing that much staying/not playing power.


The Marketplaces #1, #2 and #3 are still open :)

Chauncey1
10-23-2013, 12:09 PM
The forum outrage would have garnered a response regardless of the bridge thing. Honestly I think we would be in exactly the same place with or without people parked on a wayfinder bridge.

I don't think this form of protest is bad, I just think you and others are giving it more credit for a response than warranted.

I doubt it.
This protest got publicity and fast.
Had we kept our nerdrage confined to the forums, that would not be the case.

Grosbeak07
10-23-2013, 12:10 PM
If that is the case, and they won't come to the table without us having to raise holy hell every time, then they will only cause more players to leave.
Nobody wins.

This is my fear of the whole situation.

Chai
10-23-2013, 12:12 PM
The forum outrage would have garnered a response regardless of the bridge thing. Honestly I think we would be in exactly the same place with or without people parked on a wayfinder bridge.

I don't think this form of protest is bad, I just think you and others are giving it more credit for a response than warranted.

Nope. Forum riots rarely garner multiple media outlet attention like the sit in did. The sit in garnered far more attention than the regular forum rants do, in orders of magnitude.

Scraap
10-23-2013, 12:20 PM
This is my fear of the whole situation.

Precisely why we need to sit down and have a thorough dialogue on the differences between the production and consumption cultural approaches to the game, so we don't have to keep revisiting the conversation over and over again. This whole thing really is painful, but a sharp pain vs a slow grinding one makes no difference in the end if they continue to remain on their present course of constantly over-focusing on their present projects to the detriment of the rest of the systems. Look at the variables they're using for their math: balancing HTR against all current sagas? It's obvious it starts from the approach of Epic Reincarnation, and fills in heroic TRing as an afterthought, or they wouldn't even be including 25+ quests as part of their balance-sheet equations.

Chai
10-23-2013, 12:21 PM
That's not the point.

No that [b]IS[/b}the point. The fact that youre not seeing or acknowledging it doesnt make my solid irrefutable position go away. The fact that you gloss over everything posted and just continue to repeat that nothing was gained, which is incorrect. Customer feedback is always a plus. We pay the bills after all.


The point is Heart of wood will still be removed despite your protests. Hence, it was unsuccessful.

Incorrect. I cited cases in very recent Turbine history where lack of support caused them to revert their plans. All you do is continue to repeat that nothing was accomplished, when in fact if you were aware of Turbines case history on such matters, youd clearly see how this situation is akin to the one I cited. Since you have no refutation for those however,m you attempt to gloss over them and repeat that nothing was accomplished. That repeated argument with no logic behind it whatsoever has already been dismantled.


The most you can say is that you got Turbine's attention. Forum flaming would have been sufficient for that. Hence, standing around on a bridge did not accomplish your goal which was to "stop the heart of wood trade from being changed."

Wrong. It got Turbines attention, multiple media outlet attention, mass player attention. Attention in the MMO community. That battle is still being fought. Youre continued claiming that it still will change is false, unless you have a delorian, a flux capacitor, and 1.21 jiggawatts, you do not know that the goal hasnt been accomplished yet. THey could be in a meeting right now discussing cancelling the changes due to overwhelming lack of support for them, but you wouldnt know that, yet you will still claim its going to change? If youre from the future, who wins the next 5 super bowls. Daddy needs a new pair of shoes.


I don't see any difference in the player base still playing after excluding you protesters. You don'r represent the player base.

You dont see the difference. The difference is there though. The problem isnt that we have no point, its that you fail to see it. The player base has represented itself quite well, in sitting in, posting on FB, leaving and filling out exit surveys, etc....what exactly have you done? Attempted to instigate, and failed to do so. What exactly is your position on this issue anyhow, other than attempted instigation. You have quite a few posts here and yet other than the same repeated "you guys arent acomplishing anything" (which has been proven wrong as nauseum throughout) youre really not dropping any logic here. There are some small number of folks who do support the change, and some of them have stated their reasons why. Youre not among them.

slarden
10-23-2013, 12:25 PM
Nope. Forum riots rarely garner multiple media outlet attention like the sit in did. The sit in garnered far more attention than the regular forum rants do, in orders of magnitude.

The publicity, yes that may have been a direct result of the bridge sit in.

I don't the publicity mattered all that much either. It was an unfinished product and still is. They were never going to require 500 hours of game play for a heart. The other issues are still in discussion, but I doubt they are sweating because far less than 1% of the player base is sitting on a bridge on Wayfinder. They realize that almost the entire player base is unhappy based on very clear forum posts/responses.

Chai
10-23-2013, 12:27 PM
The publicity, yes that may have been a direct result of the bridge sit in.

I don't the publicity mattered all that much either. It was an unfinished product and still is. They were never going to require 500 hours of game play for a heart. The other issues are still in discussion, but I doubt they are sweating because far less than 1% of the player base is sitting on a bridge on Wayfinder. They realize that almost the entire player base is unhappy based on very clear forum posts/responses.

The same was said about the madstone nerf, the loss of XP on epic TR, and keeping tomes on TR. Wrong on all 3 accounts. As ive clearl stated and people who disagree continue to gloss over, theres a long case history here of Turbine reversing terribad ideas due to lack of player support for them.