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karatemack
10-15-2013, 04:32 PM
..

Chai
10-15-2013, 04:55 PM
Epic shroud will revive the game for a period of time. Probably better received than the expansions similar to epic Gianthold. Most of the well designed content happened in the first two years of this game.

The reason why LoB wasnt quite as good as shroud crafting wise is because shroud covered most of the slots on the toon, while LoB covered weapon slots. The best things it did were giving us crafted handwraps and shields.

Memnir
10-15-2013, 05:48 PM
I will only grind something if they manage to also make it something fun. I will never again grind something just for grind's sake like it's my damn job. In six months time or less - whatever was ground out will be replaced by newer & better, any kind of accomplishment will be nullified in the face of a new peak to scale. Only if it hits the "this is fun" sweet-spot, will it be worth my time and effort.

If the grind is too painful or simply just not fun - I'll skip it and not feel the worse off for it. This is what I do for leisure and relaxation - not a a rat-race where the finish line keeps moving back.





For me, grind is irrelevant.... the fun matters more.

voodoogroves
10-15-2013, 06:08 PM
We have enough EN/EH/EE loot. I'm not alone in thinking turning everything into that will be horrid.

I still prefer replacing all skill / attribute elements of old epic gear with pre-filled augments (of, say, STR 6). Leave the ones that are "special" like +7 or +2 at a ML20 .. but put the rest into pre-filled augments so folks can replace/remove advance.

You wouldn't have to change the mechanics of shard/seal/etc. except for maybe tweak the drop rates in the really broken areas (desert).

karatemack
10-15-2013, 06:11 PM
For me, grind is irrelevant.... the fun matters more.

I hear you and mostly agree. I was working off of the assumption that the DEVS would be trying to make the new content unique and fun. However, having meaningful rewards at the end of a challenging quest adds something. Take Abbot for instance... those of us who are crazy (stupid) enough to PUG this quest rarely complete it due to its complexity (difficulty?) (bugs?). Whenever I am in a group which completes it feels like a WIN... but you know what makes that better? Pulling awesome loot as well.

Also, the nature of raids/quests in an online game is that eventually people will figure out the "trick" to making it easier to complete. Add to that the fact that over time our toons will become more powerful (also making the quest easier to complete) and the loot rewards give more weight to the raid/quests relevance than the challenge (again, over time).

I guess my point is that BOTH are important.

voodoogroves
10-15-2013, 06:13 PM
I guess my point is that BOTH are important.

Absolutely. It has to be fun, but you have to feel like you're working towards something ... and that something is a goal you can realistically reach.

Otherwise, players stop playing.

karatemack
10-15-2013, 06:14 PM
We have enough EN/EH/EE loot. I'm not alone in thinking turning everything into that will be horrid.


voodoogroves,

could you expand on this a bit more for me? What are the downsides for the players?

HernandoCortez
10-15-2013, 07:02 PM
Grind in an MMO is important for many reasons. One reason is because it supplies a sense of accomplishment (or elitism) when you gain new abilities or finally get that certain piece of loot to drop. Quests should be challenging and the best loot shouldn’t just drop every run, otherwise the reward loses much of its appeal. So the grind is necessary to keep players engaged in the game which is important since it gives DEVS time to develop new content. The problem with grind is when the reward is not significant enough to warrant the effort or when new content makes old content worthless. So, here are my suggestions (in no particular order) to make the grind more win/win:

*Convert ALL epic content in the game from the old shard/seal/scroll system to the EN/EH/EE system. In order to facilitate the conversion, create barter boxes which allow players in possession of shards/seals/scrolls to update their items as follows:
- Base item EN + Scroll = EH version of item
- Base item EH + Seal + Shard = EE version of item

* As new raids replace old raids keep them relevant in proportion to the rewards they give. Here are some ways you can do this:
- Increase (significantly) the drop rate so it’s worth it to run for twink gear at least.
- Re-use ingredients. (FRDS could have been relevant again if the new Red Armor was better.)
- Use old raid gear to improve new raid gear
- IE: add a slot to EQ called “absorb effect” or whatever. In a new barter window you can trade old gear for new “augment of absorbed effect” or whatever you call it. Let’s say you barter madstone boots which would give an “augment of absorbed effect” with madstone rage on it. Equip augment to item with slot for “absorb effect” and now it has the madstone rage effect. Profit.
- Make every ‘old’ raid have an EPIC setting. (EPIC SHROUD with EPIC GS with 5 TIERS instead of 3!!! Well… anyway…)

* Better balance between raid gear/named items and random loot:
- Raid gear/named items should have certain effects you can only find on raid gear (IE: madstone rage).
- Raid gear/named items should not have “random” effects. If you do want to allow for customization (IE: necromancy focus vs evocation focus) please do so but allow us to add these effects via commendations or other ‘collectibles’
- Random loot should be… well… random. With raid loot/named items the player should know what they’re going to get. Raid loot/named items should NOT be like a box of chocolates.
- Augment slots balance out random loot by allowing us to customize these items and make them useful.
- Random loot (generally speaking) should not be better than raid loot/named items of the same level.

* Shroud, in my opinion, had the best grind-for-gear balance in the game to date. Here’s why:
- Items necessary to acquire base items easily acquirable. (easy progress early on)
- Ingredients to upgrade items tradable.
- Multiple upgrades to items allowing progressively more difficult achievements, but also rewards during the grind (finishing an item challenging)
- Customization options (was better once planner came out and barter window is great!)
It seems like the devs tried to recreate this in LoB and MA but those quests didn’t come off quite the same…. Maybe others can help contribute why…

* Pick a crafting system and stick with it. Personally, I believe the current augment system is awesome. Maybe change the current recipes in cannith crafting to allow players to create base items with augment slots and then the shard recipes to augment recipes… (let the rage begin)

* The leveling/TR system is about to get an overhaul and I believe the changes you are implementing are what was needed. Reduced XP for multiple heroic lives, a good system with reward for Epic TR and even a way to include Iconics. Great job!

* I know you said you will leaving the cap at 30 and then focusing on content… the only thing I can say is… please do this! We need more content/raids. Raids especially.

Well said.

/SIGNED big time.

Ungood
10-15-2013, 08:33 PM
Most of these ideas have been suggested in one form or another, and "grind" is not what keeps player in the game, "Goal" is what keeps them playing.

Grind is simply a means to stall the goal, and that is where the mistake of all these kinds of posts come up short, they think the grind is needed, because that is all they know, but that is just a facade to the underlying issue.

Now as for your ideas, meh, they really should never have gone with EN, EH, EE loot to start with, it was only put in to placate the power gamer and locust, personally, that mechanic I do not feel adds anything to the game, as I could run a quest a dozen times on EE, and never see a bit of loot, then run it once on EN for a friend and the loot drops, and now I have a EN item, which is trash to me, which in the end of things functions as a Kill-joy to pulling the loot.

The current trend in Loot is not adding to the joy of the game unfortunately, but, I also don't see that gear being shifted anytime soon.

voodoogroves
10-15-2013, 08:42 PM
voodoogroves,

could you expand on this a bit more for me? What are the downsides for the players?

Your proposed system aside (why does it have to be those combinations to net that item, etc.) I think a lot of people are pretty tired of the blandness on the EN/EH/EE versions from a conceptual standpoint - espescially for things that aren't "worth" it. Yeah, it's a game, yeah we metagame, but they do kill what little immersion is left for some people. They (and I'm one) are ok with some things being versioned, but everything having different versions makes it annoying. The SoS should be the SoS.

The downside is, essentially, a chunk of people dislike it. If we started seeing NHE versions of Luck Blades, Ioun Stones, etc. it gets to be too many crappy things that are too similar for no good reason.

I also personally don't like the mechanics of it. Very few of the EE versions are truly worth even bothering over. That means the bulk of them are not worth farming and that 1 ML difference is basically junk and near worthless. If there's an item that truly scales and is important how it scales and will reasonably continue to be important - I can see the point in differentiating the versions. Otherwise, it's junk.

karatemack
10-15-2013, 08:54 PM
Grind is simply a means to stall the goal, and that is where the mistake of all these kinds of posts come up short, they think the grind is needed, because that is all they know, but that is just a facade to the underlying issue.


I work in the wireless industry so I'll relate it to something I know. When a new cellphone is released the average subsidized cost for it is around $200. As new phones with better features are released the old devices are still available but no one would be willing to pay $200 for them anymore. Once we reduce the price, however, many people are still willing to buy them.

When a new Raid comes out and the shinies are still shiny, people are willing to invest more in order to get them. In fact, the extra investment makes the reward more rewarding. Once those shinies are a few years old and the new shinies have come out, however, the cost should be reduced. Also, I gave other suggestions as to how it could still be relevant.


Now as for your ideas, meh, they really should never have gone with EN, EH, EE loot to start with, it was only put in to placate the power gamer and locust, personally, that mechanic I do not feel adds anything to the game, as I could run a quest a dozen times on EE, and never see a bit of loot, then run it once on EN for a friend and the loot drops, and now I have a EN item, which is trash to me, which in the end of things functions as a Kill-joy to pulling the loot.

I disagree. I believe the EN/EH/EE system was an excellent change to the Epic loot system. With the old system you had to get lucky on a drop 4 times, once for the base item then the scroll/seal/shard. The scrolls/seal/shard(s) rarely drop from the same quests which means you have to grind multiple quests and have the stars align in your favor multiple times in order to make ONE piece of gear. (how many EPIC rings of SS are out there? [probably intentional...])

Anyway, under the new system you only have to get lucky ONCE. Also, the system provides an additional incentive to run quests on higher difficulty settings. There is also something to be said for a system which allows players to grow into harder difficulties. I really like the items which are BTCoE as well. Being able to trade rare loot before use is a good thing in my opinion.

karatemack
10-15-2013, 09:02 PM
Your proposed system aside (why does it have to be those combinations to net that item, etc.) I think a lot of people are pretty tired of the blandness on the EN/EH/EE versions from a conceptual standpoint - espescially for things that aren't "worth" it. Yeah, it's a game, yeah we metagame, but they do kill what little immersion is left for some people. They (and I'm one) are ok with some things being versioned, but everything having different versions makes it annoying. The SoS should be the SoS.

The downside is, essentially, a chunk of people dislike it. If we started seeing NHE versions of Luck Blades, Ioun Stones, etc. it gets to be too many crappy things that are too similar for no good reason.

I also personally don't like the mechanics of it. Very few of the EE versions are truly worth even bothering over. That means the bulk of them are not worth farming and that 1 ML difference is basically junk and near worthless. If there's an item that truly scales and is important how it scales and will reasonably continue to be important - I can see the point in differentiating the versions. Otherwise, it's junk.

An extra augment slot can make a big difference spread out over 6 or so pieces of gear. Also, vampirism vs lesser vampirism makes a huge difference for us heal amp addicts. The SoS isn't the SoS until you get the extra 3 pieces required to upgrade it. I suppose I really favor the new system because (while it still relies on a certain level of loot luck) it more heavily rewards those who can complete on higher difficulty settings than those whom chance favors.

Havok.cry
10-15-2013, 09:41 PM
Epic shroud will revive the game for a period of time. Probably better received than the expansions similar to epic Gianthold. Most of the well designed content happened in the first two years of this game.

The reason why LoB wasnt quite as good as shroud crafting wise is because shroud covered most of the slots on the toon, while LoB covered weapon slots. The best things it did were giving us crafted handwraps and shields.

Well that and oozes. LoB doesn't have any, harry does. Harry wins.

sephiroth1084
10-15-2013, 10:25 PM
- Customization options (was better once planner came out and barter window is great!)
It seems like the devs tried to recreate this in LoB and MA but those quests didn’t come off quite the same…. Maybe others can help contribute why…
Shroud was better than LoB crafting for several reasons:

Greensteel could be made into weapons, helm, gloves, cloaks, boots, goggles, bracers, belt, and necklace, while alchemical items only covered weapons and shields
Greensteel had a much wider array of effects, which we could mix and match, and which covered many more areas of gameplay: HP, SP, healing amplification, Insight to AC, exceptional bonuses to skills, stats, and saves, stacking elemental resistances, elemental absorption, unique effects (Concordant Opposition being the biggie, but also stuff like ooze procs), spell power (the old equivalent), spell lore, utility effects (Heavy Fort, Blindness/Disease/Poison immunity, Deathblock), and useful activated abilities like Raise Dead, Displacement, and Haste (and with a higher-than standard caster level), whereas alchemical weapons didn't offer anywhere near this variety, being restricted almost entirely to damage bonuses and a unique +2 stacking stat bonus (but only available for 4 of our 6 stats, and tied to other effects).
The Shroud itself is also a little more friendly than LoB is: it doesn't take half an hour just to get the raid started, has worthwhile rewards for even failed attempts, a variety of gameplay (albeit beating on portals is one of the most mind-numbing activities in DDO), requires less coordination among the group than LoB does (someone pulling aggro in LoB at the wrong moment can lead to a wipe very quickly, whereas most serious mistakes in Shroud can be remedied by regrouping or chugging potions), and individual fights don't last as long. That variety helps keep people from getting bored--the scenery changes a little, the tasks required of each player change from one part to the next. In LoB, you have a little bit of standard trash-fighting on the way in, and then are stuck with basically the same task for the rest of the raid until the Quori spawn. Oh, and in LoB, you spend a lot of time doing nothing, because the enemy is hanging out in the rafter, or gearing up to smack the tank.
While greensteel crafting requires you to jump through some hoops, most of what you need to do is all in one place, or easily reachable: you craft your blank i town, then do all your crafting in the Shroud, after the raid is done. For alchemical items, you have to fight your way through an explorer zone to get to one of a few different crafting altars to work on one piece of your item or another. And there are more stages to it: collect ingredients from the raid, and from the quests/explorer zone. There are more steps involved in the alchemical process.



Mind you, as a tank, I enjoyed running LoB for a while, but on other characters...it got rather dull.

AbyssalMage
10-15-2013, 10:36 PM
I suppose I really favor the new system because (while it still relies on a certain level of loot luck) it more heavily rewards those who can complete on higher difficulty settings than those whom chance favors.
Yet the old system favored cooperation among many skill levels. The new system favors a minority.

As an example:

Now as for your ideas, meh, they really should never have gone with EN, EH, EE loot to start with, it was only put in to placate the power gamer and locust, personally, that mechanic I do not feel adds anything to the game, as I could run a quest a dozen times on EE, and never see a bit of loot, then run it once on EN for a friend and the loot drops, and now I have a EN item, which is trash to me, which in the end of things functions as a Kill-joy to pulling the loot.

But we can agree to disagree as I think tiered loot, like many other decisions by Turbine, has split the community instead of uniting it.

To the OP,
Grind is:
Never. Ever. Good.

Then again, I think it was just a poor choice of words. But it did get me to click on the post. So kudos! :)

Qhualor
10-15-2013, 10:43 PM
Shroud was better than LoB crafting for several reasons:

Greensteel could be made into weapons, helm, gloves, cloaks, boots, goggles, bracers, belt, and necklace, while alchemical items only covered weapons and shields
Greensteel had a much wider array of effects, which we could mix and match, and which covered many more areas of gameplay: HP, SP, healing amplification, Insight to AC, exceptional bonuses to skills, stats, and saves, stacking elemental resistances, elemental absorption, unique effects (Concordant Opposition being the biggie, but also stuff like ooze procs), spell power (the old equivalent), spell lore, utility effects (Heavy Fort, Blindness/Disease/Poison immunity, Deathblock), and useful activated abilities like Raise Dead, Displacement, and Haste (and with a higher-than standard caster level), whereas alchemical weapons didn't offer anywhere near this variety, being restricted almost entirely to damage bonuses and a unique +2 stacking stat bonus (but only available for 4 of our 6 stats, and tied to other effects).
The Shroud itself is also a little more friendly than LoB is: it doesn't take half an hour just to get the raid started, has worthwhile rewards for even failed attempts, a variety of gameplay (albeit beating on portals is one of the most mind-numbing activities in DDO), requires less coordination among the group than LoB does (someone pulling aggro in LoB at the wrong moment can lead to a wipe very quickly, whereas most serious mistakes in Shroud can be remedied by regrouping or chugging potions), and individual fights don't last as long. That variety helps keep people from getting bored--the scenery changes a little, the tasks required of each player change from one part to the next. In LoB, you have a little bit of standard trash-fighting on the way in, and then are stuck with basically the same task for the rest of the raid until the Quori spawn. Oh, and in LoB, you spend a lot of time doing nothing, because the enemy is hanging out in the rafter, or gearing up to smack the tank.
While greensteel crafting requires you to jump through some hoops, most of what you need to do is all in one place, or easily reachable: you craft your blank i town, then do all your crafting in the Shroud, after the raid is done. For alchemical items, you have to fight your way through an explorer zone to get to one of a few different crafting altars to work on one piece of your item or another. And there are more stages to it: collect ingredients from the raid, and from the quests/explorer zone. There are more steps involved in the alchemical process.



Mind you, as a tank, I enjoyed running LoB for a while, but on other characters...it got rather dull.

yes. alchemical crafting had potential and could have been an upgrade to GS weapon crafting, but as you listed above, this is why its not run much anymore. people really wanted this to work, but it had some problems with it that could and still can be fixed if the devs were willing to make some changes.

voodoogroves
10-15-2013, 10:51 PM
An extra augment slot can make a big difference spread out over 6 or so pieces of gear. Also, vampirism vs lesser vampirism makes a huge difference for us heal amp addicts. The SoS isn't the SoS until you get the extra 3 pieces required to upgrade it. I suppose I really favor the new system because (while it still relies on a certain level of loot luck) it more heavily rewards those who can complete on higher difficulty settings than those whom chance favors.

Adding that to existing epics isn't going to make them worth using at 28, that's the issue.

What's the difference in REAL practical terms between the EN/H/E version of High Road gear at this point?

I think what you're implying is that all that gear would be also tweaked to be relevant at cap. What I'm saying is that any gear that isn't really useful at cap just becomes a different version of a leveling kit at best (and just more junk at worst) - and having too many of those is just noise.

karatemack
10-15-2013, 11:08 PM
Adding that to existing epics isn't going to make them worth using at 28, that's the issue.

What's the difference in REAL practical terms between the EN/H/E version of High Road gear at this point?

I think what you're implying is that all that gear would be also tweaked to be relevant at cap. What I'm saying is that any gear that isn't really useful at cap just becomes a different version of a leveling kit at best (and just more junk at worst) - and having too many of those is just noise.

Which is why I stated before that raid/named loot should have effects you can't get anywhere else. Take the Ring of SS for instance. It has something (3 clicks of a major pot/rest) worth having which you can't get on just any old piece of gear. Madstone boots. EE Ivy Wraps. Torc. Lit.

Also, useful is relative to build and play style. Just because one item gives WIS +11 on a helm does not mean that a WIS +11 ring would be useless. Maybe you could use that helm slot for something else you really want for your build....

@abyssalmage:

Getting into EE content isn't THAT bad. EN is solo material and EH is manageable with 2 experienced players or most PUGs. I don't view EE as the great division in the DDO community. The elitists who won't let inexperienced or bad players into their EE groups are the same people who wouldn't have grouped with them in the first place. Those who would group in the old epic content with their friends to help them out still will (as cited in the example you provided). If you have too much trouble getting into a static group (which you shouldn't) you can always start or join a guild.

voodoogroves
10-15-2013, 11:21 PM
Which is why I stated before that raid/named loot should have effects you can't get anywhere else. Take the Ring of SS for instance. It has something (3 clicks of a major pot/rest) worth having which you can't get on just any old piece of gear. Madstone boots. EE Ivy Wraps. Torc. Lit.

Also, useful is relative to build and play style. Just because one item gives WIS +11 on a helm does not mean that a WIS +11 ring would be useless. Maybe you could use that helm slot for something else you really want for your build....

What you're talking about is a one by one redo of EVERY item - and not just a little update, a serious look at each one. If it is going to be that handy at end game, then sure - give folks their version differences. That can't and won't be everything.

And I'm totally down with raid loot having unique stuff


Getting into EE content isn't THAT bad. EN is solo material and EH is manageable with 2 experienced players or most PUGs. I don't view EE as the great division in the DDO community. The elitists who won't let inexperienced or bad players into their EE groups are the same people who wouldn't have grouped with them in the first place. Those who would group in the old epic content with their friends to help them out still will (as cited in the example you provided). If you have too much trouble getting into a static group (which you shouldn't) you can always start or join a guild.
Has nothing to do with EE.

Has more to do with the following: what is the real and meaningful difference between EN/EH/EE Whisperchain? Shadowmail? Wizard's Ward? There is none, they are all either short-term gear only, fit in only specific niche custom builds or junk/flavor.

I'd rather the items that come in those versions have serious and meaningful differences and be on relevant items. Making multiple versions of every piece of hooha is junking up the environment.
I'm completely fine with items like the Quiver of Poison - it scales, it's clear and it's generally useful. The axe that scales up to three slots - ok, sold. I can't say the same for the Shamanic Fetish - and instead, we just loot different versions of junk that someone has to code/maintain.

I don't need EN/H/E versions of the freaking Elder's Cap (if we're talking old epic gear) or Breastplate of Destruction (if we're talking old raid loot).


I'm fine with some stuff coming in NHE versions. I'm fine with some stuff not. If we're going to spend time on anything though, it has to be something that is at least as relevant as the current game.

karatemack
10-15-2013, 11:38 PM
What you're talking about is a one by one redo of EVERY item - and not just a little update, a serious look at each one.

Ring of SS as an example. EN 1 charge/day major mnemonic aid. EH 2 charges/day major mnemonic aid. EE 3 charges/day major mnemonic aid and a colorless slot. You will never convince me people wouldn't flock to sands just for this item. Also, not EVERY item will be relevant to EVERY build (like a ring of SS is to every caster). Every update brings loads of items which go unused but offer variety.


Has more to do with the following: what is the real and meaningful difference between EN/EH/EE Whisperchain? Shadowmail? Wizard's Ward? There is none, they are all either short-term gear only, fit in only specific niche custom builds or junk/flavor.

Everything you EVER gain in an MMO is a "short term" gain. Come back in 6 months and there will be something newer and more shiny. See my first post for suggestions on how to keep certain raids/items relevant as this happens. (What did you think about the absorb effect augment?)


I'd rather the items that come in those versions have serious and meaningful differences and be on relevant items. Making multiple versions of every piece of hooha is junking up the environment.

I agree. Clerics need some turning love. (Is eternal faith really all you got devs???) Relevance is dependent largely upon build and play style as well.


I'm completely fine with items like the Quiver of Poison - it scales, it's clear and it's generally useful. The axe that scales up to three slots - ok, sold. I can't say the same for the Shamanic Fetish - and instead, we just loot different versions of junk that someone has to code/maintain.

We already have 2 versions... the epic and non-epic. In addition to that we also have the scrolls/shards/seals for each item. That's 5 items/epic item vs 3 in the EN/EH/EE version. Plus... think of all the saved INV/BAG space if we suddenly didn't have to carry any seals/shards/scrolls!!!


I don't need EN/H/E versions of the freaking Elder's Cap (if we're talking old epic gear) or Breastplate of Destruction (if we're talking old raid loot).

Rework the set bonuses a little bit and add augment slots and you're there. I like the set bonuses a lot. They add variety and help otherwise meh gear stand out. The problem is that the set bonuses don't offer enough to make ditching them a tough decision.

Nadalis
10-15-2013, 11:52 PM
I don't think this can be said enough. I like running shroud. I run a shroud like once a week. But, I haven't run a shroud for ingredients for almost two years. I envision myself always running shroud. I have fun running shroud. I will run raids over and over, because we do them in guild. I will run raids even when I don't think they are fun because I get to run them with 11 other drinking friends. I have run more than 70 VONS without a SOS shard dropping in my name once. Yes I am looking for a ESOS. No my characters are gimped without it, but yes I still want one. I do not grind for a SOS shard, I run VON with my guild, and it is a bonus if I get a shard.

On the otherhand I don't like ingredients.
I hate grinding for ingredients.
I'd much a rather run a normal quest that just gives me a normal chest, instead of "another run for some more ingredients, or another run where I got only one more commendation when I need like 30."
But what I I like better than grinding, or running better than normal quests are quests that I think are fun in their own right. I would much rather run a quest I like and enjoy despite not having the most uber gear because I won't grind for it.

I feel that it is a shame that some quests are run just to satisfy the grind. I hate to say it, but most players don't play to grind, and I am not surprised that as many people duped commendations and challenge ingredients when they had the chance. I agree that uber gear should be a sacrifice, I agree that uber gear should be rare. But in my personal opinion, I would rather run and fun quest and run it 60 times and wait for a shard, than run CITW (which is dynamic, but I don't find enjoyable) 60 times to grind for comms to finally upgrade the gear from there.

There is a reason most of my characters have no challenge items. I hate the grind, I'd rather skip it and run higher level stuff.

Spend more time designing fun quests. "If you build it, they will come."

Just like my favorite DM in pnp, worry about fun, challenge, and creativity and we will play. Don't worry about loot, don't make me feel like I have to grind for it.

Storm horn series... Nailed it! And the art? Damn totally nailed it, if you guys haven't been up on the mountains yet, you are totally missing out, the scene is awesome up there.





I will only grind something if they manage to also make it something fun. I will never again grind something just for grind's sake like it's my damn job. In six months time or less - whatever was ground out will be replaced by newer & better, any kind of accomplishment will be nullified in the face of a new peak to scale. Only if it hits the "this is fun" sweet-spot, will it be worth my time and effort.

If the grind is too painful or simply just not fun - I'll skip it and not feel the worse off for it. This is what I do for leisure and relaxation - not a a rat-race where the finish line keeps moving back.





For me, grind is irrelevant.... the fun matters more.

Ungood
10-16-2013, 06:21 AM
But we can agree to disagree as I think tiered loot, like many other decisions by Turbine, has split the community instead of uniting it.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-confused002.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) it's odd that you opt to say we shall disagree when we both agree the that tiered loot is not good for the game.

Qaliya
10-16-2013, 06:31 AM
Grinding isn't an activity, it's a state of mind. If you enjoy running the same stuff over and over, it's not grinding regardless of how many times you run it. If you're doing it reluctantly, or only to 'get something', then you're grinding, no matter how few times you run it.

That aside, it only seems like grinding is necessary to some players because of the lack of new content and the lack of a viable PvP mechanism in DDO. They grind for new gear because there's nothing else to do, really.

Soulfurnace
10-16-2013, 06:31 AM
Too lazy to read thread.

So.. Get rod of e/h/n, bring back seal/shard/scroll.

Same droprates as named items on live. Every X completion awards seal/shard/scroll of your choice. (Or: Tie it into saga. Entire chain = 1 shard/scroll/seal of your choice, all options. 3* chain = item. Some random grind, some no-fail grind, more grind than current... based off my experience.)

Or, if we must persist with this n/h/e system, have upgrade options, and more BTA(or C) on acquire. Force people to grind upgrade tokens (or something), meaning that a base N item requires X tokens to upgrade to E version. Hard version requires Y, where X>Y to hit elite. (Oh, fine. You can include casual, with casual requiring Z tokens, where Z>X>Y. Tokens can be guaranteed at % of Y amount, with a chance of Y in a single chest.)

Just my thoughts. More grind, ways for items to be upgraded, less BtCoE.

karatemack
10-16-2013, 06:34 AM
No my characters are gimped without it, but yes I still want one. I do not grind for a SOS shard, I run VON with my guild, and it is a bonus if I get a shard.

Quests that are fun to play and quests which give rewarding loot are not mutually exclusive.

There are different levels of grind. Anything which isn't able to be accomplished in ONE run of a quest and takes time investment to achieve will be referred to as a "grind". TR'ing, getting shroud ingredients, upgrading old epic items, running for new epic items, maxing out all destinies and many other components of the game designed not to be able to be completed overnight have been referred to as a "grind". When I write that the "grind" is necessary I mean that requiring a time investment (through collection of ingredients or xp curves or drop rates etc) for achievement helps build the sense of accomplishment and keeps many interested in playing until new content is released. Not everyone adopts a "for the love of the game" attitude.

Ungood
10-16-2013, 07:00 AM
I work in the wireless industry so I'll relate it to something I know. When a new cellphone is released the average subsidized cost for it is around $200. As new phones with better features are released the old devices are still available but no one would be willing to pay $200 for them anymore. Once we reduce the price, however, many people are still willing to buy them.

When a new Raid comes out and the shinies are still shiny, people are willing to invest more in order to get them. In fact, the extra investment makes the reward more rewarding. Once those shinies are a few years old and the new shinies have come out, however, the cost should be reduced. Also, I gave other suggestions as to how it could still be relevant.

How does this relate to anything I have said? Because you are making jumps in logic that I don't see.


I disagree. I believe the EN/EH/EE system was an excellent change to the Epic loot system.

Personally, I think it sucks, I liked it better when there is was 1 tier of item, for example, there is one Pinion, not an EE Pinion, or an EN Pinion, there is just one kind of Pinion, and I believe that is the way the game should be for all named loot.

Like I said, they only put in Tiered loot for e-peen needy power gamers, and in retrospect, all it did was make people less happy when they pulled the loot on a EH or EN exp grind run.

IronClan
10-16-2013, 07:13 AM
For me, grind is irrelevant.... the fun matters more.

Without grind people stop playing, there's less to do, and less people to do it with... Grind is relevant because without it the fun goes away when there's nothing to do (but solo which for me is the same as nothing to do).

I like VON, and there's often one to join, and/or people to fill it fast. I don't raid timer it so I never get sick of it. I want an eSoS eventually I might pull one piece then two.

FOT on the other hand is already seemingly not very popular, the drop rates especially early on satiated the demand for the loot, nothing quite as legendary as eSoS in their and none if it remotely as hard to get I see Skybreakers all over the place to easy to get. The only toon I have that wanted anything in their was a Healer that in the first week got her immortality gloves and never set foot in it again.

Look at the newest content... Almost totally non existent on the LFM panel, nothing good to grind for, whats marginally good is available on the AH. Also there's very little incentive "carrot" OR "whip" to bother leveling to 28. Just like there's little reason to drive down a road you know is a dead end that leads to no where you need to go...

These are case studies in how to balance grind/reward/replay value, and how not to.

EN/EH/EE loot on the AH was a mistake, one that I supported at first and now have changed my mind on. Grind is relevant, it doesn't all have to be the same but their does need to be some spectacular powerful items that take a really long time to get in anything they want to get replayed past the first couple months. Shroud and VON is all the proof anyone should need of that. MArty, LOB, FoT etc. are proof as well, of how not to make the loot. Their rewards aren't good enough or their items aren't powerful/diverse enough. OR in the case FoT too easy to get.

I personally think they should go back to the shard seal scroll system, but buff all the loot ikn the old endgame and bring the mobs CR's up to 28th level and then another tweak when they get to 30... If they want to make EN base items and then just have the Shard/seal/scroll system for the EH and EE version fine.

I am asking for more reasons/incentive to replay content... and I know this means that a lot of people who left the game did so because they wanted more reasons/incentive but never got it.

Qaliya
10-16-2013, 07:18 AM
Without grind people stop playing, there's less to do, and less people to do it with... Grind is relevant because without it the fun goes away when there's nothing to do (but solo which for me is the same as nothing to do).


It's pretty funny seeing people say that without players being forced to do things they don't really like, the "fun goes away".

If people stop playing without grind, that's because the game has insufficient content to keep them playing because they want to. And very few will continue grinding for long before realizing "hey, this is a game and it's actually not fun".

The first time they try a game that actually has a lot of stuff to do other than running the same N quests over and over, it's a real eye-opener.

Charononus
10-16-2013, 07:25 AM
Storm horn series... Nailed it! And the art? Damn totally nailed it, if you guys haven't been up on the mountains yet, you are totally missing out, the scene is awesome up there.

Have to say complete opposite with stormhorns. The art was pretty but I really couldn't care less about it. I'll play the original metroid and zelda still because they're fun, the graphics are the absolute least important thing in a game imo. The quests now feel like

Trackers trap -- dungeon feels like a copy of the two end quests of the druids deep quest mashed together.
Break in the Ice -- feels like prey on the hunter with just a slightly different endfight.
Breaking the ranks -- Devil Assault anyone?
What goes up -- visual effects of flying and shadowfell give me motion sickness and make me literally puke.
Lines of supply -- decent but very very simple.

karatemack
10-16-2013, 07:30 AM
How does this relate to anything I have said? Because you are making jumps in logic that I don't see.

You wrote:
Grind is simply a means to stall the goal, and that is where the mistake of all these kinds of posts come up short, they think the grind is needed, because that is all they know, but that is just a facade to the underlying issue.

My point is that the "grind" (IE: time investment to acquire items) is worth it when the items are new. Less so when they are no longer end-game. The point of my opening post was that the value of older gear/ingredients decreases over time yet there are ways to help it remain somewhat relevant.



Personally, I think it sucks, I liked it better when there is was 1 tier of item, for example, there is one Pinion, not an EE Pinion, or an EN Pinion, there is just one kind of Pinion, and I believe that is the way the game should be for all named loot.

Like I said, they only put in Tiered loot for e-peen needy power gamers, and in retrospect, all it did was make people less happy when they pulled the loot on a EH or EN exp grind run.

Are you excluding the 5 different versions since there are 4 levels of attuned by heroism?

Also, if anything the EN/EH/EE system introduced options for the unskilled player. Now they can have a version of an item they never would have been able to get under the old system. And, as someone else in this thread pointed out, while there are differences between the EH/EE versions of gear it isn't noticeable unless you care about getting the absolute most out of your gear.

Silken-Akira
10-16-2013, 07:51 AM
Grinding isn't an activity, it's a state of mind. If you enjoy running the same stuff over and over, it's not grinding regardless of how many times you run it. If you're doing it reluctantly, or only to 'get something', then you're grinding, no matter how few times you run it.


I support the OP in his opinion (and also found the above qoute very true, grind is fun to some because it gives them an enjoyable goal)
I myself have periods when I have set my mind on something I want (even if I afterwards se something else shiny to want) What I don't understand from a dev viewpoint is why make all this effort in some items that were at a certain point in time considered as end gear which now loose so much of their appeal. Just like epic there should be a reason to stash them aside (you can sell more storage space...) and at end game go through some mechanic to get them upgraded again.

I also thought that proposal: base N item requires X tokens to upgrade to E version. Hard version requires Y, where X>Y to hit elite from Soulfurnace isn't that bad.

But....
There is lots I like to see (extra eberron place coming into play, a psychic warrior class, 5000 favor reward, just neat new quests, extra ways to get space to put stuff, etc...) and does this one stand there on the top off. For me personally not really at the moment. so rather see devs time in something else I guess. still very good proposal

Forzah
10-16-2013, 08:14 AM
I disagree. I believe the EN/EH/EE system was an excellent change to the Epic loot system. With the old system you had to get lucky on a drop 4 times, once for the base item then the scroll/seal/shard. The scrolls/seal/shard(s) rarely drop from the same quests which means you have to grind multiple quests and have the stars align in your favor multiple times in order to make ONE piece of gear. (how many EPIC rings of SS are out there? [probably intentional...])

Anyway, under the new system you only have to get lucky ONCE. Also, the system provides an additional incentive to run quests on higher difficulty settings. There is also something to be said for a system which allows players to grow into harder difficulties. I really like the items which are BTCoE as well. Being able to trade rare loot before use is a good thing in my opinion.

That problem only holds for the majority of desert items. The droprates in all other pre U14 packs are fine. I'd much prefer to have that system back instead of the bland EN/EH/EE system. Furthermore, playing to get your loot > buying loot.

kned225
10-16-2013, 08:32 AM
Personally, I think it sucks, I liked it better when there is was 1 tier of item, for example, there is one Pinion, not an EE Pinion, or an EN Pinion, there is just one kind of Pinion, and I believe that is the way the game should be for all named loot.


Couldnt agree more

I understand why it wont happen, but id also like a vast majority of the named items to go back to being btcoa and bta. I found it far more rewarding

JOTMON
10-16-2013, 08:47 AM
Epic shroud will revive the game for a period of time. Probably better received than the expansions similar to epic Gianthold. Most of the well designed content happened in the first two years of this game.

The reason why LoB wasnt quite as good as shroud crafting wise is because shroud covered most of the slots on the toon, while LoB covered weapon slots. The best things it did were giving us crafted handwraps and shields.

I believe LoB failed because there were very few variations possible on crafted items, no where near the usefull variations available on shroud.
there needed to be hundreds of addtional crafting options for LoB..
we have more useless ingredients from the LoB chain than there are crafted options available.

How many shield craft combinations were actually defensively oriented..and not easly blown away by most random drop shields..
I crafted my T3 shield then parked it in the bank shortly after.
The only short lived drive was for monks seeking DR breakers.. Deconstruction and random drop wraps took care of this problem...
even the new enhancement pass eliminated a lot of dr breaking issues for monks...
Currently I see no reason to run LoB for loot crafting, the loot doesnt give a good return on time investment.


Shroud in my opinion is still the best value pack and a must get pack for any player.
The vale is well designed, quests have a good challenge and flow, there are some hated ones, but we still run them repeatedly for ingredients.

Gear can be crafted for any wearable spot with the combinations the player wants to fit whatever void they want.
All the Shroud crafted items variations are usefull for a large level range, there are many usefull unique clickies.
Any class or multiclass mutation can and likely will craft more than one usefull Shroud item that continues to be usefull from heroic through endgame.
HP items, SP items, Skill enhacers, Clickies, Absoprtion items, Rez clickies, Generalized/Specific weapons, are all availible in Shroud.

Devs are still failing to replace shroud in meaningful ways in the epic levels.
Instead of working epic items around greensteel gear I should be looking at replacing my greensteel with equivilent or better epics ..

I think the devs are missing a big area of development here ..
being able to convert crafted Greensteel shards into augment gems... with higher level options of converting my fully crafted greensteel gear into augments...
Then I would still have a reason to run shroud.. to craft slottable greensteel augments on my epic gear..
... and really, would it take much to have shards be augmentable?.. start with the non-clickie versions for HP and SP.. absorption, heal amp....

karatemack
10-16-2013, 08:48 AM
That problem only holds for the majority of desert items. The droprates in all other pre U14 packs are fine. I'd much prefer to have that system back instead of the bland EN/EH/EE system. Furthermore, playing to get your loot > buying loot.

Help me out here because I'm having a hard time understanding who took away your ability to play for loot? Giving people more options (IE: trading/selling) is a bad thing because?

I don't think I will ever understand the mentality which states "I don't like playing this way so make it impossible!" Think about it this way... if you REALLY enjoyed playing for loot more than paying for loot then you wouldn't ever buy anything even if the option is available. If the option is there and you choose to pay rather than play then which do YOU really prefer???

Also... how does other people having access to loot through buying/trading negatively impact you? I don't care how anyone else gets their shinies. What matters to me is MY game experience which I am always in control of. I'll save the benefits of not all gear being BTCoA for another thread...

Qhualor
10-16-2013, 08:51 AM
I think having tiered gear from normal to elite was not a very good idea. Its not really working out the way the devs envisioned I think. It doesn't close the gap between new and veteran players or casual and power gamers. All types of players feel entitled to the best loot and want it. The norm/hard versions satisfies the players because mostly there isn't a big difference between hard/elite but people still want the elite. A good elite epic item will sell if players are willing to pay and having trouble getting that item. EE isn't pugged much and most rely on guild/friends. I think its totally unnecessary to have tiered heroic items. The difference is very minimal and just seems like a waste when elite BB is the norm.

Gauthaag
10-16-2013, 08:56 AM
what i hate most is doubling rare drop chance, either by making it rare drop from already rare spawn (i dont mind rare spawns in wilderness) - yeah speking about ivys or kronzek cruelty, or by dropping the item in several variants like various seals from drow houses - getting the right one via chest drop is really painful.

and from personnal experience i dont think those items have their drop chance raised to make for the initial disadvantage

kned225
10-16-2013, 09:02 AM
Help me out here because I'm having a hard time understanding who took away your ability to play for loot? Giving people more options (IE: trading/selling) is a bad thing because?

I don't think I will ever understand the mentality which states "I don't like playing this way so make it impossible!" Think about it this way... if you REALLY enjoyed playing for loot more than paying for loot then you wouldn't ever buy anything even if the option is available. If the option is there and you choose to pay rather than play then which do YOU really prefer???

Also... how does other people having access to loot through buying/trading negatively impact you? I don't care how anyone else gets their shinies. What matters to me is MY game experience which I am always in control of. I'll save the benefits of not all gear being BTCoA for another thread...

By this logic, you'd be fine with raid loot being sold in the ddo store, yes?

JOTMON
10-16-2013, 09:13 AM
Most players understand grind to a point.. but ultimately there needs to be an achievable light at the end of the tunnel.
Running EDQ 80 times and still not having a Torc is frustrating. thats 4 20th incremental end lists with no base item due to bad drop luck and bad roll luck.
.. I have even given up on ever getting the epic ring of Spell Storing....
After 50 raid runs I should have no reason not to have anything I want out of an area..
Give me an option after some point .. like Sands favor+500 Antique Bronze Tokens+25 Epic Tokens ..something to get my missing base without pure random luck...
3 to 1 trades for the shards/seals....

karatemack
10-16-2013, 09:13 AM
By this logic, you'd be fine with raid loot being sold in the ddo store, yes?

Would I care if someone else acquired their gear by buying it in the DDO store? Nope. I wouldn't care at all.

I DO/WOULD have issues with raid loot being sold in the DDO store but they aren't related to how someone else obtains loot. Obtaining loot through in-game mechanics or by interacting with your fellow gamers is far different than Turbine selling the best loot to those who can afford it. If you can't/don't/won't see the difference then I can't help you.

Charononus
10-16-2013, 09:16 AM
Would I care if someone else acquired their gear by buying it in the DDO store? Nope. I wouldn't care at all.

I DO/WOULD have issues with raid loot being sold in the DDO store but they aren't related to how someone else obtains loot. Obtaining loot through in-game mechanics or by interacting with your fellow gamers is far different than Turbine selling the best loot to those who can afford it. If you can't/don't/won't see the difference then I can't help you.

With the asah there is no difference between turbine selling it and players selling it. In fact Turbine could be secretly stocking the asah with the script they use to stock the ah on lam and no one would be able to prove it.

Forzah
10-16-2013, 09:25 AM
Help me out here because I'm having a hard time understanding who took away your ability to play for loot? Giving people more options (IE: trading/selling) is a bad thing because?

I don't think I will ever understand the mentality which states "I don't like playing this way so make it impossible!" Think about it this way... if you REALLY enjoyed playing for loot more than paying for loot then you wouldn't ever buy anything even if the option is available. If the option is there and you choose to pay rather than play then which do YOU really prefer???

I'm not capable of playing with such self-imposed limitations: I want the game to set the limitations for me. My goal is to gear up as fast as possible within the limitations of the game. Hence, if the item is up for trade, I'll simply buy it. I know buying items is bad for me in the long run, but I simply can't resist it. Therefore, I prefer that (some parts of) items cannot be traded or bought. Because of the easy to get EN/EH/EE loot my playing time is at an all time low. For me it has been devastating for the game experience.



Also... how does other people having access to loot through buying/trading negatively impact you? I don't care how anyone else gets their shinies. What matters to me is MY game experience which I am always in control of.

It hurts me because I have no reason to play anymore and because there are less players that want to run a particular quest. People grind the quest out quickly in the first few weeks and then simply don't care anymore. Before U14 you'd play a quest for months instead of weeks.

Teh_Troll
10-16-2013, 09:27 AM
EN/EH/EE loot on the AH was a mistake . . .

Combine that with absolutely ABYSMAL drop rates. Hundreds of EE Tors . . . I've pulled a total of 3 helms and 2 bloods.

Combine this with Feather out-dating items after 1 update. Seriously, this never happened in DDO when other people were responsible for the loot. There is no point in chasing ANYTHING if it's 1 update away from becoming out-dated garbage.

Combine this with random drops now being better than 90% of the named loot.

Sure . . . grind matters. but at the same time grind NEEDS to matter. Chasing Greensteel was never a waste of time, not until MoTU came out and even now it's great for TRs. Big issue is the new loot people out-date stuff too quickly, meaning it's pointless to pursue anything. Dreamvisor and Whisperchain I'm looking at you.

karatemack
10-16-2013, 09:28 AM
With the asah there is no difference between turbine selling it and players selling it. In fact Turbine could be secretly stocking the asah with the script they use to stock the ah on lam and no one would be able to prove it.

Time for the tin foil hat already?

Charononus
10-16-2013, 09:30 AM
Combine that with absolutely ABYSMAL drop rates. Hundreds of EE Tors . . . I've pulled a total of 3 helms and 2 bloods.

Combine this with Feather out-dating items after 1 update. Seriously, this never happened in DDO when other people were responsible for the loot. There is no point in chasing ANYTHING if it's 1 update away from becoming out-dated garbage.

Combine this with random drops now being better than 90% of the named loot.

Sure . . . grind matters. but at the same time grind NEEDS to matter. Chasing Greensteel was never a waste of time, not until MoTU came out and even now it's great for TRs. Big issue is the new loot people out-date stuff too quickly, meaning it's pointless to pursue anything. Dreamvisor and Whisperchain I'm looking at you.

Troll license revoked, you're talking too much logic and sense.

kned225
10-16-2013, 09:30 AM
Would I care if someone else acquired their gear by buying it in the DDO store? Nope. I wouldn't care at all.

I DO/WOULD have issues with raid loot being sold in the DDO store but they aren't related to how someone else obtains loot. Obtaining loot through in-game mechanics or by interacting with your fellow gamers is far different than Turbine selling the best loot to those who can afford it. If you can't/don't/won't see the difference then I can't help you.

At this point, the ddo store is an in-game mechanic

See?....you DO care how others get their best loot. Don't worry, its just human nature. And has been discussed to death in a million p2w threads. Look those up

Teh_Troll
10-16-2013, 09:30 AM
Time for the tin foil hat already?

it's not that tinfoilesque . . . it's possible. I do not believe Turbine is doing this as if they were the ASAH would be a hell of a lot better stocked :cool:

Charononus
10-16-2013, 09:30 AM
Time for the tin foil hat already?

With a company and making money it's always time for tin-foil. There is no such thing as an honest company.

Teh_Troll
10-16-2013, 09:31 AM
Troll license revoked, you're talking too much logic and sense.

As the issuer of Troll licenses I'll grant myself a new one.

Now hjeal meh!

Gauthaag
10-16-2013, 09:36 AM
Most players understand grind to a point.. but ultimately there needs to be an achievable light at the end of the tunnel.
Running EDQ 80 times and still not having a Torc is frustrating. thats 4 20th incremental end lists with no base item due to bad drop luck and bad roll luck.
.. I have even given up on ever getting the epic ring of Spell Storing....
After 50 raid runs I should have no reason not to have anything I want out of an area..
Give me an option after some point .. like Sands favor+500 Antique Bronze Tokens+25 Epic Tokens ..something to get my missing base without pure random luck...
3 to 1 trades for the shards/seals....

exactly:) i have personnaly no problem with torc, even passed some for rolls...but i never saw planar gird dropped:)

Gauthaag
10-16-2013, 09:39 AM
another tinfoil question:)

does it seem only to me or anyone else noticed drop rates are quite lot better couple initial days after release and then drop dramatically?

karatemack
10-16-2013, 09:42 AM
I'm not capable of playing with such self-imposed limitations:

Got it. So your argument boils down to justifying restrictions on everyone for your lack of self-discipline? I prefer end game content so should they remove TR since I have no self-control? Oh and take out the ability to create new toons as well!

Forzah
10-16-2013, 09:54 AM
Got it. So your argument boils down to justifying restrictions on everyone for your lack of self-discipline? I prefer end game content so should they remove TR since I have no self-control? Oh and take out the ability to create new toons as well!

Yes. Sometimes restrictions are good for a game. I know that many people have quit this game because there is almost nothing to do anymore. BtCoE is one of the things that contributes to that, together with the new random loot and few relevant raid items.

Your examples are not very accurate. The fact that people TR or create new toons does not influence my goals, but a market flooded with gear heavily influences my goals.

Forzah
10-16-2013, 10:06 AM
Got it. So your argument boils down to justifying restrictions on everyone for your lack of self-discipline? I prefer end game content so should they remove TR since I have no self-control? Oh and take out the ability to create new toons as well!

I don't understand your point with this thread, by the way. First you say "the grind matters", and then you promote mechanics which almost completely remove the grind.

Teh_Troll
10-16-2013, 10:11 AM
does it seem only to me or anyone else noticed drop rates are quite lot better couple initial days after release and then drop dramatically?

Does anyone else also notice that new content is only run for a few weeks after it's release and then nobody cares?

Turthfully . . . the drops are equally as terrible all around, stuffs just run more often when it is new.

Qhualor
10-16-2013, 10:11 AM
another tinfoil question:)

does it seem only to me or anyone else noticed drop rates are quite lot better couple initial days after release and then drop dramatically?

Yes. Its always been easier to pull named loot from new packs right after release until maybe the next week or two.

Qhualor
10-16-2013, 10:16 AM
Does anyone else also notice that new content is only run for a few weeks after it's release and then nobody cares?

That's what happens when players farm for the loot they want and run new quests for first time thrills.

kned225
10-16-2013, 10:31 AM
Yes. Its always been easier to pull named loot from new packs right after release until maybe the next week or two.

Because then you're not running it?

silinteresting
10-16-2013, 10:40 AM
its not the grind that matters its always the goal.
if the goal is worthy of the grind then the grind will happen.
if the goal is not worthy of the grind then grind is imaterial
as the goal will never be reached.
the end.

your friend sil :)

karatemack
10-16-2013, 11:40 AM
I don't understand your point with this thread, by the way. First you say "the grind matters", and then you promote mechanics which almost completely remove the grind.

There is more than one type of grind. Also, how many EE Ivy Wraps are in the shard house on your server right now? Enough for everyone who wants to buy them to get a pair?


At this point, the ddo store is an in-game mechanic

See?....you DO care how others get their best loot. Don't worry, its just human nature. And has been discussed to death in a million p2w threads. Look those up

When you buy a quest pack/expansion does it include instantly supplying you with ALL of the loot available from the quests? Does buying the pack give you access to loot which players who did not purchase the pack do not have access to? Is there a difference between paying for access to something and directly purchasing something?

Like I said before. Either you will get it or you won't.

ALSO... Forzah got me sidetracked on this one. Sorry I let that happen.The point of this thread is not whether or not gear should be BTCoE or BTCoA. Here is the main point:


The problem with grind is when the reward is not significant enough to warrant the effort or when new content makes old content worthless.

So you don't like the EN/EH/EE system and want things to go back to seal/shard/scroll. Fine... what do you think of some of the other ideas? Epic Shroud anyone? Augments of Absorbed Effect?

Qhualor
10-16-2013, 11:58 AM
Because then you're not running it?

It depends. People usually flock when a new quest pack is released. After you check out the quests, praise or express displeasure and get the loot you want from them you go back if its part of flagging or xp is at least decent. There is such a hamster wheel grind in the game, people overall aren't going to go back much for the fun of it. Depending how good the loot is, how good the xp is, flagging and fun determines how frequented these new quests will be.

Watch what happens when the next new quests are released and listen subjectively what players say about them. You can tell after the first week or two if the quests will be a one time pass through or there's enough reasons for players to go back again and again.

Teh_Troll
10-16-2013, 12:00 PM
Depending how good the loot is, how good the xp is, flagging and fun determines how frequented these new quests will be.


it's just loot and XP. I'm sorry but "fun" is not much of a deciding factor for repeated runs.

kned225
10-16-2013, 12:14 PM
When you buy a quest pack/expansion does it include instantly supplying you with ALL of the loot available from the quests? Does buying the pack give you access to loot which players who did not purchase the pack do not have access to? Is there a difference between paying for access to something and directly purchasing something?

If you're for ppl paying for access to loot, but against ppl buying it directly from the store, it still means you care how ppl get their loot. And....your point was you didnt

Qhualor
10-16-2013, 12:20 PM
it's just loot and XP. I'm sorry but "fun" is not much of a deciding factor for repeated runs.

Its not a big deciding factor. Loot and xp are the big ones, but one of the biggest complaints about grind is the fun factor. If players are grinding for something, they want it to be fun while doing it. Repetition steadily decreases the fun aspect of it, but that's why grind must equal reward.

Ungood
10-16-2013, 12:47 PM
You wrote:

My point is that the "grind" (IE: time investment to acquire items) is worth it when the items are new. Less so when they are no longer end-game. The point of my opening post was that the value of older gear/ingredients decreases over time yet there are ways to help it remain somewhat relevant.

That was never my point, abut I will say this again: You're confusing Grind with Goal.


Are you excluding the 5 different versions since there are 4 levels of attuned by heroism?

This is silly, this is like trying to equate GS crafting to the new Tiered system. It just makes you look like you simply don't get it. There are not 'versions' of Pinion, there are simply available upgrades to the base item, which can be acquired regardless of what difficulty you run the quest on.


Also, if anything the EN/EH/EE system introduced options for the unskilled player. Now they can have a version of an item they never would have been able to get under the old system.

LOL, you mean a crapper one, Thanks, yah, that is exactly why the system fails so hard.

Derana
10-16-2013, 01:39 PM
Grind in an MMO is important for many reasons. One reason is because it supplies a sense of accomplishment (or elitism) when you gain new abilities or finally get that certain piece of loot to drop. Quests should be challenging and the best loot shouldn’t just drop every run, otherwise the reward loses much of its appeal. So the grind is necessary to keep players engaged in the game which is important since it gives DEVS time to develop new content. The problem with grind is when the reward is not significant enough to warrant the effort or when new content makes old content worthless.
best loot should be bound to character/account again so that people have to actually play the game and not just log in to use their credit card, charge a few astral shards and buy the best loot off the shard exchange.



*Convert ALL epic content in the game from the old shard/seal/scroll system to the EN/EH/EE system. In order to facilitate the conversion, create barter boxes which allow players in possession of shards/seals/scrolls to update their items as follows:
- Base item EN + Scroll = EH version of item
- Base item EH + Seal + Shard = EE version of item
dunno if thats good. they could just add upgrades to the old (epic) raid loot (like abi set) and make it upgradeable with heroic commendations to smth like +10 (or 11 since it drops on random loot.. -.-") and make commendations then drop in every raid (and pls a better drop rate than in citw...)




* Better balance between raid gear/named items and random loot:
- Raid gear/named items should have certain effects you can only find on raid gear (IE: madstone rage).
- Raid gear/named items should not have “random” effects. If you do want to allow for customization (IE: necromancy focus vs evocation focus) please do so but allow us to add these effects via commendations or other ‘collectibles’
- Random loot should be… well… random. With raid loot/named items the player should know what they’re going to get. Raid loot/named items should NOT be like a box of chocolates.
- Augment slots balance out random loot by allowing us to customize these items and make them useful.
- Random loot (generally speaking) should not be better than raid loot/named items of the same level.
i so agree on this one. Random loot should NEVER be better than raid loot. twilight (+3 evocation) is outdated now cuz theres a GRANTED npc end reward necklace that gives +4 evocation on ml 15 or 19 (forgot which). Same goes for the guardians ring from what goes up. granted end reward. the heroic version (ml 19) gives 24 (!!!!) prr. the best pre-u19 prr item was the bulwark with 15 (!!!!) prr on ml 25. like what the hell. what was one thinking when creating these granted end rewards from u19 quests.



* Shroud, in my opinion, had the best grind-for-gear balance in the game to date. Here’s why:
- Items necessary to acquire base items easily acquirable. (easy progress early on)
- Ingredients to upgrade items tradable.
- Multiple upgrades to items allowing progressively more difficult achievements, but also rewards during the grind (finishing an item challenging)
- Customization options (was better once planner came out and barter window is great!)
It seems like the devs tried to recreate this in LoB and MA but those quests didn’t come off quite the same…. Maybe others can help contribute why…
lob was run a lot as well when the weapons still mattered.



* The leveling/TR system is about to get an overhaul and I believe the changes you are implementing are what was needed. Reduced XP for multiple heroic lives, a good system with reward for Epic TR and even a way to include Iconics. Great job!
i dunno if its just me but level 28 needs 6,6 mill exp already, so 30 will prlly sit at 8 or 9 mill exp. its a hell to level.. i dont really like it but i'll just not (epic) tr and so this is one i disagree with u but thats my personal thing :p



* I know you said you will leaving the cap at 30 and then focusing on content… the only thing I can say is… please do this! We need more content/raids. Raids especially.
i rly hope for that too. i hope for great loot that is kinda difficult to get and/or takes a while to make if u need more than one item.

karatemack
10-16-2013, 01:40 PM
That was never my point, abut I will say this again: You're confusing Grind with Goal.

Anything which requires repeating for success (IE: you don't always get what you want the first run) will be labeled as "grind". The time investment required can be because of XP curves, drop rates, ingredient collection requirements... some grind is good. Goals require not just an anticipated result but also a time frame in which to accomplish said result. I agree


This is silly, this is like trying to equate GS crafting to the new Tiered system. It just makes you look like you simply don't get it. There are not 'versions' of Pinion, there are simply available upgrades to the base item, which can be acquired regardless of what difficulty you run the quest on.

You wrote,
I liked it better when there is was 1 tier of item


LOL, you mean a crapper one, Thanks, yah, that is exactly why the system fails so hard.

I would be ok with using COMMS to upgrade items. 5 from EN to EH and 20 EH to EE. Problem solved?


If you're for ppl paying for access to loot, but against ppl buying it directly from the store, it still means you care how ppl get their loot. And....your point was you didnt

I don't care how people acquire loot. I do care about the business model. The current model is fine and is not the same as Turbine directly selling raid loot. I can't help you understand.

Ungood
10-16-2013, 01:54 PM
I would be ok with using COMMS to upgrade items. 5 from EN to EH and 20 EH to EE. Problem solved?

That is even less an incentive to keep a lower tier item if I am then required to grind an insane number of coms to upgrade it to just a what drops on a higher difficulty.

All this does make the game go from "Cool I got a Pinion" to "****, I pulled a Pinion on EN run, FML!"

karatemack
10-16-2013, 02:38 PM
That is even less an incentive to keep a lower tier item if I am then required to grind an insane number of coms to upgrade it to just a what drops on a higher difficulty.

All this does make the game go from "Cool I got a Pinion" to "****, I pulled a Pinion on EN run, FML!"

Don't think of it as grinding for the coms. Just set a "goal" of how many coms you want.

Ungood
10-16-2013, 02:48 PM
Don't think of it as grinding for the coms. Just set a "goal" of how many coms you want.

Well, you totally missed the point. Not surprise.

But that aside, this rather dismal idea of yours belongs in Suggestion and Ideas, along countless other ideas like it, where it will not be among the worst of the ideas there, so there is that.

Teh_Troll
10-16-2013, 03:17 PM
Its not a big deciding factor. Loot and xp are the big ones, but one of the biggest complaints about grind is the fun factor. If players are grinding for something, they want it to be fun while doing it. Repetition steadily decreases the fun aspect of it, but that's why grind must equal reward.

99% of the quests in DDO at least reach the level of "fun." I probably should have been more clear, that's why it's not really a factor. It's a given.

Charononus
10-16-2013, 03:19 PM
99% of the quests in DDO at least reach the level of "fun." I probably should have been more clear, that's why it's not really a factor. It's a given.

I think we have more than 1% of quests that are escort quests. A fun escort quest is an oxymoron.

Teh_Troll
10-16-2013, 03:29 PM
I think we have more than 1% of quests that are escort quests. A fun escort quest is an oxymoron.

What if the escort was a double-jointed halfling with no teeth?

Charononus
10-16-2013, 03:33 PM
What if the escort was a double-jointed halfling with no teeth?

Would still rather throw it off a cliff, halflings are more disturbing than half elves. Halflings are like psychopathic toddlers running around.

Teh_Troll
10-16-2013, 03:36 PM
Would still rather throw it off a cliff, halflings are more disturbing than half elves. Halflings are like psychopathic toddlers running around.

yes, but killing psychotic toddlers doesn't get you better loot.

karatemack
10-16-2013, 05:08 PM
But that aside, this rather dismal idea of yours belongs in Suggestion and Ideas,

FIXED.


best loot should be bound to character/account again so that people have to actually play the game and not just log in to use their credit card, charge a few astral shards and buy the best loot off the shard exchange.

Is that really happening though? Are there enough EE Ivy Wraps on the shard exchange on your server so that everyone who wanted one could just buy one?

legendkilleroll
10-17-2013, 06:20 AM
I agree with some point but not others

Ive only been playing year and half and wasnt heavily involved with endgame when shard/seals were the top items, everytime ive had a seals/shard i want drop for me i get a sense of excitement and finishing a epic item feels like an accomplishment, now you just run around kings forest do a few quests and you have gear that already beats months and months of epic runs, so people have what they want so quick then get bored

Alot of the epic items are useless now so having comm udgrades sounds decent to me and having them drop from other raids would also be a good move

Yep, raid loot has to be best, dont like this randomness, like what was mentioned few posts back you can run a quest on casual and pick up a ml15 +4 evo dc necklace thats more DC than a lv25 raid item, same with the prr ring which has +8prr more than any other source i think, then you look at some of the other named items from quests in shadowfell and there useless

I dont buy AS, i dont use the shard exchange so that maybe affects my opinion, you see things listed for ridiculous prices, even items for 100 shards seem to much for me, we should have to play the game to earn gear, not just buy it if we have money to throw around or run one quest and get top loot, i would like to see more upgrade options, whether thats from raids or even quests, idk

Soulfurnace
10-17-2013, 07:31 AM
yes, but killing psychotic toddlers doesn't get you better loot.

The sacrificial halfling is part of an appeasement to the RNG god.

That is all.

Charononus
10-17-2013, 07:38 AM
The sacrificial halfling is part of an appeasement to the RNG god.

That is all.

Drink potions of wonder till you get an undermine bomb and sacrifice everyone.

FalseFlag
10-17-2013, 11:21 AM
Grinding doesn't provide a sense of accomplishment for everyone. The main function of grinding is to keep people logged on. This game was supposed to have less grinding. It's no longer adhering to that mission statement.

Derana
10-17-2013, 12:16 PM
Is that really happening though? Are there enough EE Ivy Wraps on the shard exchange on your server so that everyone who wanted one could just buy one?
didnt see an epic group for that chain in ages. dunno if any1 is even running it (even for the sagas, i dont recall seeing any groups of any difficulty)