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Lanhelin
10-13-2013, 06:08 PM
What about Twohanders or other fighting styles? The main focus seems to favorite S&B. So a Wizard-Tank? But what about a Melee Wizard DD?

Source: ddowiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Wizard_Eldritch_Knight_enhancements)

Ayseifn
10-13-2013, 06:17 PM
For better or worse pretty much all the melee prestiges are like this now, if you want to get the most out of a certain prestige then you have to use their favored weapons or fighting style.

Lanhelin
10-13-2013, 06:52 PM
I'd like to make "them" taste my Great Axe supported Greater Cleave with previously casted Hold Person Mass, xD

Dagolar
10-14-2013, 01:05 AM
What about Twohanders or other fighting styles? The main focus seems to favorite S&B. So a Wizard-Tank? But what about a Melee Wizard DD?

Source: ddowiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Wizard_Eldritch_Knight_enhancements)

Well, the 'Eldritch Knight' is sort of appropriate to the concept.
But the 'Spellsword' class, which was incorporated into DDO's Eldritch Knight, typically did not wear armor or use shields.

In other words, I'm also not fond of how limited they made the path- even though I like some of the things they put in, and the fact that they decided to finally heed my endless begging for a spellsword class.

It'd be great if they removed some of the redundant and useless elements, and added in options that made the path more open-ended. :)

hucka
10-14-2013, 03:49 PM
my twf wizard will use EK either way, even though you need to spend some points in stuff id like not to to reach tier5 stuff, but avoiding all the armor and shield stuff is possible and thus it works for other fighting styles too

Failedlegend
10-14-2013, 08:30 PM
Eldritch Knights traditionally wield a 1-handed weapon and a spell in the off-hand DDos best translation would be a Orb in the off-hand S&B makes no sense for Spellswords either again 1-handed weapon is the traditional weapon on ther other hand despite traditionally using 1-H and orb EKs are as varied as fighters in their combat methods the best option would be to make it either combat style neutral or make multi-selectors so i covers TWF, THF,S&B and Sword & Orb.

Something like this (Sword-like Weapons = Shortswords, Longswords, Scimitars, B-Swords, Falchions and Greatswords)

Core 1 Eldritch Strike (gets better with each core) +0.5 USP and +1 Force Power per pt spent in tree
Core 3 Cha or Int Atk/DMG (multi-selector to try avoiding bugs of only one working)
Core 6 Spellsword(choosing element works like Elemental Weapons or Resist Energy)
Core 12 Tensers Toggle
Core 18 Heavy Armor Prof & No ASF accrued from them OR Master Mage Armor/Shield (basically makes the already improved spells even better to make it on par with equivalent armor and shields)
Core 20 +25 Force SP,+1 Crit Multiplier w/Sword-like Weapons and +2 Int or Cha

Note: Core 3 & 6 are fairly interchangeable for their placement but I think the above order is optimal

Tier 1

- Improved Mage Armor OR Light/Medium Armor Prof and No ASF when wearing those armors
- Item Defense: 25%/50%/75% to negate item wear
- Toughness: 5/10/15 HP
- Battlemage: +1/2/3 Concen/Intim/Balance
- Spell Critical: Force +2 % Chance to crit with force damage



Tier 2

- TWF, THF, Shield Mastery or Eldritch Combatant (bonus when using 1-handed weapon and wizard orb) multi-selector choose one
- Swordsman: Proficiency with all Sword-like weapons and 2/4/6% Doublestrike
- Wand and Scroll Mastery +25/50/75% & +1/2/3 DC
- Spell Critical: Force +2 % Chance to crit with force damage
- Improved Shield OR General Shield Proficiency and No ASF with any shield (except tower)

Tier 3

+ 1 Any Stat
- Improved Battle Mage: Buffs are no longer dispelable or affected by anti-magic affects.
- Eldritch Barrier (SLA similar to Arty's Radiant Force Shield...cooldown 12min/6min/3min seconds duration 30 seconds + 6 seconds per level...Metas: Quicken & Extend)
- Arcane Senses: +2/4/6 Reflex, Spot and Dodge%
- Spell Critical: Force +2 % Chance to crit with force damage

Tier 4

- ITWF, ITHF, Improved Shield Mastery or Improved Eldritch Combatant (multi-selector choose one - Req Char Lvl 6)
- + 1 Any Stats
- Force Feedback (5/10/15% chance to do 1d4/1d8/1d12 Force damage on-hit w/ knockdown effect
- Haste Boost [Req: Arcane Senses]
- Efficient Metamagic: Extend


Tier 5

- GTWF, GTHF, Improved Shield Bash or Greater Eldritch Combatant (multi-selector choose one)
- Master Battlemage (Doubles the effectiveness of the Extend Metamagic...requires Extend)
- Improved Tenser's Toggle (reduces penalties and increases benefits)
- Eldritch Tempest (Req: Force Feedback)
- Eldritch Spectacle - +25/50/75% Magic Threat Generation & -5/10/15% ASF

Note: Magic includes your EK SLAs ie. Eldritch Tempest and Spellsword

The Tree (on its side) would look something like this.

1. Improved Mage Armor,Improved Shield,Eldritch Barrier,Force Feedback,Eldritch Tempest
2. Force Crit,Force Crit,Force Crit,Efficient Meta: Extend,Improved Tensers
3. Toughness, Combat Style,+1 Any stat,Improved Combat Style,Greater Combat Style
4. Wand & Scroll Mastery, Battle Mage,Improved BM, +1 Any Stat, Master Battle Mage
5. Item Defense, Swordsman, Arcane Senses, Haste Boost, Eldritch Spectacle

Not really sure what to do with the Eldritch Combatant but following other prestige classes would work.

Maybe something like this (changed due to some recent suggestions)

EC: When fighting with an orb in your off-hand, you gain 1 temporary spell point and +1 universal spellpower on-hit, 3 temporary SP and USP on crit, and 5 temporary SP and USP on vorpal for X seconds <insert standard language for disappearing stacks here>.
IEC: Any 1-handed "Sword-like" weapon gains +1 to Crit range and is treated as an implement
PEC: Orbs Boni to Saves and Energy Resist no longer requires you to be actively blocking (blocking doubles the effect instead)

MuinainenKoski
10-15-2013, 02:36 AM
Any news on when EK enhancements might hit the regular servers?

Failedlegend
10-15-2013, 11:23 AM
Any news on when EK enhancements might hit the regular servers?

Hopefully not for a while there alot of work that needs to be done before it will become a useful PrE...suprised there hasn't been a single dev response to any of this though.

MuinainenKoski
10-16-2013, 02:34 AM
Eldritch Knights traditionally wield a 1-handed weapon and a spell in the off-hand DDos best translation would be a Orb in the off-hand S&B makes no sense for Spellswords either again 1-handed weapon is the traditional weapon on ther other hand despite traditionally using 1-H and orb EKs are as varied as fighters in their combat methods the best option would be to make it either combat style neutral or make multi-selectors so i covers TWF, THF,S&B and Sword & Orb.

Something like this (Sword-like Weapons = Shortswords, Longswords, Scimitars, B-Swords, Falchions and Greatswords)

I don't really get how EK traditionally wield any particular weapon? What you are thinking is the elven bladesinger (which traditionally used a longsword, and was the term for elven fighter/mage in 2nd edition). EK is also not limited to bladed weapons, that would be a "swordmage" from 4E and its not really that traditional. The only time I've ever seen anything pointing to EK using swords, is the flavor picture in the 3.5e sourcebooks, where there is a woman wielding a longsword and having a rod/wand on their other hand.

I do agree on the shield aspect though and I would really love to see the devs implementing some sort of way to make single weapon fighting feasible. The quickest fix would be to treat any single weapon as two-hander if the other hand is empty (1.5str bonus etc.), sort of like bastard sword and dwarven waraxe are now (though I believe they are counted two-handed all the time). Maybe allow you to use an off-hand wand or make EK attack elementals scale from off-hand rods (that would not be used in combat, as twf like they are now). Another way would be to borrow from the swordmage of 4E. Make tree give +3 untyped(or some type, that does not render shield spell useless, ie not shield AC) bonus to AC for each core ability while having your other hand empty and wielding an one-handed weapon, representing some kind of arcane shielding that is done with the free hand.

Either way, I would love to get to play an EK, even in its current state. It might not be endgame viable compared to some cookie cutter builds, but its certainly a completely different way to play a caster which is now supported somewhat. And I do not see why it would not work just as well as for example melee bard builds. Superior buffs combined with full bab inbuilt (tenser). Make a sorc splash in a FVS or Cleric for Divine Strength and you are golden. You can even place your level ups on str to reach the standard 23.

Skavenaps
10-16-2013, 03:18 AM
Hopefully not for a while there alot of work that needs to be done before it will become a useful PrE...suprised there hasn't been a single dev response to any of this though.

its already usefull. Permatenser for level 5 wiz, 10 cheap PRR, 10% Armor and 2 "cleaves" attacks.

Failedlegend
10-16-2013, 12:06 PM
its already usefull. Permatenser for level 5 wiz

merely a convenience...nice ability but not tier 5 worthy.



10 cheap PRR


Nice but pointless alone



10% Armor

This one I like but doesn't make the tree worth it



and 2 "cleave" attacks

with massive SP costs and massive SP requirements (i do like the abilities their just too slow and too expensive)


All this adds up to having to sacrifice any hope of any spellcasting in exchange for mediocre melee...yeah thhis ones gonna be real popular.

Failedlegend
10-18-2013, 02:15 PM
FoS Post


I wanted to drop in and thank everyone for the great feedback!

Squeak's compiled all of it for me in a very shiny e-mail with graphs and charts and all the best bells and whistles.

We'll be evaluating it early next week with an eye for selecting some things as action items to improve before this tree goes live.

Dylvish
10-20-2013, 06:03 AM
*snip*


All this adds up to having to sacrifice any hope of any spellcasting in exchange for mediocre melee...yeah thhis ones gonna be real popular.

Are you actually hoping for a class that nukes as hard as an Archmage or Necro, yet melees as well as a Warrior and / or tanks as well as a pally at the same time? That would be game breaking in my view.

I love the concept they have, and don't mind giving up some of the arcane firepower for the bonuses to melee and tankability myself. It looks like it does need some tweaking (in particular, longevity during combat, as it may drain mana too quickly currently), but I look forward to what I personally see as a great idea. Can not wait to give it some test driving on Lamm.

~Dylvish

Failedlegend
10-20-2013, 10:26 AM
Are you actually hoping for a class that nukes as hard as an Archmage or Necro, yet melees as well as a Warrior and / or tanks as well as a pally at the same time? That would be game breaking in my view.

No I hoping for an effective hybrid...it won't be able to tank, melee or spellcast as well as any of the things you mentioned due to limited feats, APs and for some cases levels. Your not giving up "Some" arcane spellpower w/o cha/int to atk/dmg your forced to mainline strength meaning your caster stat will never be at the point where your you'll be able to actually have an effective DC thus you've completely lost your arcane spellpower which means your just a mediocre melee.

WITH Cha/Int to atk/dmg you have to give up a bunch of melee feats due to Str pre-reqs so you'll be behind normal melees but your arcane abilities should even that out as well as the EK abilities. Than and only than is there a point to EK...otherwise ALL melee EKs will be forced to be PDK Sorcs.

Dylvish
10-20-2013, 04:38 PM
No I hoping for an effective hybrid...it won't be able to tank, melee or spellcast as well as any of the things you mentioned due to limited feats, APs and for some cases levels. Your not giving up "Some" arcane spellpower w/o cha/int to atk/dmg your forced to mainline strength meaning your caster stat will never be at the point where your you'll be able to actually have an effective DC thus you've completely lost your arcane spellpower which means your just a mediocre melee.

WITH Cha/Int to atk/dmg you have to give up a bunch of melee feats due to Str pre-reqs so you'll be behind normal melees but your arcane abilities should even that out as well as the EK abilities. Than and only than is there a point to EK...otherwise ALL melee EKs will be forced to be PDK Sorcs.

Ah. I see your view now. I have to disagree though, as Im not quite seeing it that way. Paladins are very limited in their feats, and spread thin in their stats (str, con, cha, and dex depending on build), yet I believe this class will tank nearly as well, and most definitely have better offense, and they can have decently high strength as well, with intel as a secondary (they will not be going for DC's as much as damage / buff). I realize its still in the planning phase, but lets look what its offering on the wiki so far. I stopped at level 20, just to avoid getting into the addition of epic destiny stuff. I have also not put in any race bonus or feats at all (for spell, shield stuff, etc).

Universal spell power....................+25 (and an additional +.5 per point spent in tree. I am assuming at least 40 pts spent, so lets say another 20 for a total of +45)
Force spell power........................ +50
Spell failure chance in armor..........-20%
Resist all elements.......................+6
Armor Class................................+10%
PRR...........................................+10
Intelligence................................+2

-Arcane Barrier (25% ALL damage reduction for 20 seconds once you get below 50% health, 90 sec cooldown)
-Eldrich Shield (+ shield enhancement bonus to health as temporary hps every 6 seconds. Sounds small, but adds up nicely over time I would think)
-Tenser's Transformation TOGGLE (permanent until turned off or rest)

Offense---
Melee damage.............................+10%
Double Strike..............................+8%
Shield Bash on hit.......................+15%
Bonus elemental damage on hit.....+4d4

-Eldrich Strike (+1w damage strike, and 0-4 force damage per level aoe on hit. 15 sec cooldown) **
-Eldrich Tempest (+2w aoe damage strike, and knock down for 1 sec. on hit, does 20d6 aoe force damage. 30 sec cooldown) **

**All strikes are modified by spell power and / or force spell power.

On a wizard, you would get 12 feats total, with 5 of them being class feats (I do not know yet if any martial type feats will be included for this prestige but I doubt it, so lets assume 5 Mage ONLY feats, and 7 whatever feats)
On a Sorcerer you would get 7 feats total. Period. (For this primary reason I think Wizard will make a much better EK, although one with less spell points)
On a paladin you would get 7 feats total. Period. (they do however, get auras and other bonuses that will help their tanking, if not their offense quite as much in their AP trees)

The AP may be a bit expensive, but I am guessing that is so you do not wind up with some absolutely insane Eldrich Tranformed Lich Knights running around nearly unkillable, and gaining health non stop, while doing damage that would do fighters do a double take. As it is, if you play as a Warforged Eldrich knight, you'll have healing that will make Paladins cry.


On top of the above listed, you get built in every single arcane buff available in game naturally (Blur, Haste, Displacement, Stoneskin, Magic Missile immunity, etc), and all of the on command debuffs and fun things that help whittle down mobs like Slows, Firewalls, Dots, etc. They do not need to be massive +SP to be very effective when added to your melee hits.


Chances are, I am missing something in there, I am sure. But from what I see so far, the only potentially serious draw back I am seeing is mana draining faster than a broken levy.


Either way, I am looking forward to seeing feedback from people that get their fingers into them, and I will try to make a point when I am able of doing the same, so I can give hands on feed back myself.

~Dylvish



P.S.: ... ooooh, I just thought about that... I wonder how nicely a Paladin / EK hybrid class could turn out.... ;)

MagicBlade
11-08-2013, 11:47 PM
Here's what I think for the Eldritch Knight - it looks to be a nice class, but it's typically an elemental S&B Paladin with how they have it set up that I can see...

A swordmage or spellsword, which is what the knight is based off of (i think) generally wears no armor. Some wield a sword, while other conjure a sword to use (depends on the characters, and where it's coming from..)

So here is how I think they should make the Eldritch Knight... remove the shields, and remove the armor. The 2 Shield Spells should stay but get an increased bonus. Making it so that while the shields are in effect, the Eldritch Knight has almost as much AC as a monk or other tank (not quite as much though) and make it so that if the off-hand remains empty, or with a rod, they get a little bonus AC (maybe) and since generally a spell sword has their off-hand free for spell casting, I'd say that they should add orbs, non-attack rods... or a half-wrap (i guess you'd call it?) Kind of like the Monk's wraps, but for only the left hand, which allows them to stay unarmed in the off-hand, but still gain bonuses, and these half-wraps should give spell bonuses, added SP, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, Spell Hit... etc..

A spellsword uses his/her spells to create their armor, rather than wearing it.... so again, I say with it like it is, it's little more than an elemental based paladin/fighter..

Although, even with that said, I think I'd have more fun with EK than PM... since AM isn't exactly viable.. unless as a lame enchanter

As Dylvish said, Eldritch Knight would be better off as a hybrid, melee/arcane survivability dps, and if DDO tries to incorporate the EK as something other than a hybrid, they'll fail and the EK won't be that great... I don't care what enhancements an EK might have, any group that sees a wizard trying to tank would think that they are an idiot.. EK or not. A spellsword isn't meant to tank, but to dish out damage, while defending themselves via spells.