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almaniac
09-13-2013, 05:26 PM
The title pretty much says it all. I used to play regularly with a group of 7 other people. Now we're down to 2 (including me) for one simple reason; frustration over not being able to finish longer quests in a reasonable amount of time.

We all are pretty busy but we set aside 2 hours a week to play, and we all had VIP accounts. Unfortunately, that meant we could often do only a single adventure, and sometimes not even that. While we love the story telling and richness of the long adventures, we just didn't end up playing them, and after awhile the shorter content gets dry (how many times can you do an orchard run?).

If we could save the progress of the party it would totally transform the game for us, and we'd get the rest of the guys back I'm sure. We can't be the only ones who would like this. It would even be awesome for soloing.

Mechanically it could work like this perhaps:

1) When no combat is ensuing, the party leader can initiate a save.
2) Saving logs those characters out. We don't want it to become a "redo", or a way to keep retrying a difficult part of the dungeon.
3) A timer starts on those characters (1 hour? 3 hours?). Until the timer ends they cannot log back in.
4) Some time later the party logs back in.
5) The characters go to some kind of lobby or something until everyone is in, or the party leader re-starts the dungeon.
6) Once restarted characters that don't come back are affected the same way they would be if they left the dungeon; so is the party.
7) New characters can join the party with all the usual consequences of joining late.
8) A player can pull their character out of the saved dungeon any time after the timer ends, but they will not be able to re-join the saved state except as a new joiner.

Anyway, something like that would be huge for us. It would allow people with only a couple hours (or less) at a time to fully enjoy the game.

almaniac
09-16-2013, 05:52 AM
I was just thinking, mechanically, it would make sense for a save point to be deleted as soon as the adventure was restarted. That would absolutely stop people using a save function as "redo".

Fedora1
09-16-2013, 05:57 AM
Then what would you do when a snotty nosed 12 year old PUG leader decides to intiate a "save" without party consent? Now 5 players are unable to login with their toons for hours.

TrinityTurtle
09-16-2013, 10:15 AM
Then what would you do when a snotty nosed 12 year old PUG leader decides to intiate a "save" without party consent? Now 5 players are unable to login with their toons for hours.

Building on this concern, what would happen if say the three hour timer was put in place, and you managed to get back in and in the middle of a quest the rest of your group also logs back on? Or even if you were standing around crafting or working on y our auctions? Would the quest fail for the other five, or would you be sucked in, or...what?

Fedora1
09-16-2013, 10:22 AM
Yeah, the only way I see a "Save" function working is in solo play.

almaniac
09-17-2013, 12:43 PM
Then what would you do when a snotty nosed 12 year old PUG leader decides to intiate a "save" without party consent? Now 5 players are unable to login with their toons for hours.

Well, the mechanics are only a suggestion, not a design document. You raise a good point, and maybe the timer idea doesn't add anything anyway. I was trying to think of a way to avoid do-overs. Maybe there's a better way. One of the guys I used to play with suggested it could be an option when setting up a party to do a dungeon. Then, if you didn't want to let someone lock you out that way you could simply not join those PUGs.

Since I rarely do PUGs, and usually only play with people I know, I wasn't thinking of that context. Any suggestions for how it could work for more "anonymous" groups?

almaniac
09-17-2013, 12:53 PM
Building on this concern, what would happen if say the three hour timer was put in place, and you managed to get back in and in the middle of a quest the rest of your group also logs back on? Or even if you were standing around crafting or working on y our auctions? Would the quest fail for the other five, or would you be sucked in, or...what?

Actually, I think I already addressed this. Characters in a saved party could enter though some kind of lobby (like the Hall of Heros perhaps). Re-entering could be like it's done for any other dungeon, or the party could be re-entered as a group (like what happens inside the Path of Inspiration for example). I suppose a late-comer could come back in through the lobby, with all the usual effects of coming in late (no loot in chests discovered while out; that kind of thing).

If you really wanted to use the character to do something else, the interface could allow that. In that case though I'd say the character should be booted from the party. Otherwise it would just be a way to get around re-entry penalties.

There are already game mechanics to handle people joining late, leaving, and coming back in; that can all be left alone. The only new aspect would really be the ability to save and come back to where you left off at a later time.

Qhualor
09-17-2013, 01:07 PM
One of the great things about DDO is that its live action with no pause button. I would hate to see it go down this road which would lead to eventually people asking to pause mid combat to heal up, switch weapons, look through your bag for something that a lot of other games allow.

almaniac
09-17-2013, 01:19 PM
One of the great things about DDO is that its live action with no pause button. I would hate to see it go down this road which would lead to eventually people asking to pause mid combat to heal up, switch weapons, look through your bag for something that a lot of other games allow.

I agree 100%. I wouldn't want to see a "pause" or re-do capability either. What I'm driving at is the same ability to run a quest over several sessions that we had in the pen-and-paper version.

hacknoid
09-17-2013, 01:44 PM
I think something like this would be a great addition to the game... I love to play, but unfortunately real life (often) gets in the way and it turns out the window of opportunity I had to play is not long enough to complete a quest. There are many times when, especially on a quest where myself (as solo) or my party don't really know what we are doing, it may take longer than expected to complete. It's pretty frustrating if I expect I can complete the quest in an hour and then we reach the end of an hour and find we are still not done. What do you do? Either abandon all progress to this point or reschedule my real life to account for the extra 20 minutes I wasn't expecting.

I think a lot of people here (in the forums) forget that there are all ranges of people playing this game, and all levels of experience. I love exploring each nook and cranny of a quest, completing the optionals and relishing the story. However, when I am under a time gun I can't always do that, especially if I don't know the dungeon.


At its simplest, all this mechanic would have to do is save the dungeon information in its last state. Then when one person continued the quest, the dungeon would become active again and it could proceed as any other active dungeon. It probably would make sense to have everyone gather at a point before going back in the dungeon... use the same mechanic as the quest goal to "gather your entire party". Then anyone that's not there can get booted from the party and the rest can continue the quest.

Of course it kind of means you are depending on others to wait for you or re-gather at the specified time, or whatever, but anytime you have a party you are depending on the rest of the group. If you are in a PUG and someone rushes into a room early what do you do? Or a healer/cc player is not doing their "job"?

Realistically this would probably work best for groups of people that know each other, or for solo play, but it would be a huge benefit for those people that cannot commit to a long adventure (or at least know that they have recourse if things go sideways). I think it would open up the game to a whole new group of people.

Uska
09-17-2013, 01:53 PM
That is one of funniest things I have ever read and how would a save function work for a multi-player game work sounds like a huge problematic thing to me.

almaniac
09-17-2013, 02:33 PM
That is one of funniest things I have ever read and how would a save function work for a multi-player game work sounds like a huge problematic thing to me.

Lots of multi-player games allow saving (in some older ones it was fundamental), and the developers really have all the things they need. As I said before, it's a suggestion, not a design document, and it might not make sense in pick-up-groups.

RedHost
09-17-2013, 03:46 PM
We all are pretty busy but we set aside 2 hours a week to play, and we all had VIP accounts. Unfortunately, that meant we could often do only a single adventure, and sometimes not even that.
Wait, what quest in DDO takes 2 hours to complete?!

Compared to every other online game I have played, DDO is loaded with very fast and easily accessible content. In games like WoW during the Vanilla and Burning Crusade eras there was an absolute need for dungeon progress to be saved, because it was not reasonable for all groups to complete it in a given span of time. I can think of absolutely nothing in DDO that has that same need. I can think of very few quests or raids that top an hour of slow play.

Havok.cry
09-17-2013, 04:00 PM
Wait, what quest in DDO takes 2 hours to complete?!

Compared to every other online game I have played, DDO is loaded with very fast and easily accessible content. In games like WoW during the Vanilla and Burning Crusade eras there was an absolute need for dungeon progress to be saved, because it was not reasonable for all groups to complete it in a given span of time. I can think of absolutely nothing in DDO that has that same need. I can think of very few quests or raids that top an hour of slow play.
Larger dungeons can take hours if you are exploring every nook and cranny, grabbing every optional and picking up every collectible. I did this in my first chains of flame run solo and it took me five hours to complete. It was fun. Zerging has it's place and is fun too, but zerging is not the only way to play.

Hoglum
09-17-2013, 04:04 PM
Something like this would be nice. Maybe a small room behind shrines where you could logout then enter at that point later on. Sort of like the Threnal tent maybe. This could potentially allow for larger dungeons rather the the hallway/boss fight set ups we see.

I'm not sure what would work but I like larger dungeons & can understand the time limits people have. PUGs could be problematic though. Not sure how to solve that.

Missing_Minds
09-17-2013, 04:26 PM
Lots of multi-player games allow saving (in some older ones it was fundamental), and the developers really have all the things they need. As I said before, it's a suggestion, not a design document, and it might not make sense in pick-up-groups.

There is a differenece between multi player single console, and multi player multi connections.

Now that said, it would be fairly easy to put in saves. The trick is per quest, the quest items. That would make it a pain, let alone the default would be to respawn all mobs, let alone rares.

Easily abused for farming MM and other such stuff.

Jeremiah179
09-17-2013, 04:40 PM
I think the mechanic would have to be this -- the party leader puts up the lfm which states it is a mode in which you can all leave and come back.

When you join this group - you are warned and click okay. If they are going to charge Astral Shards for this feature, they will not have a warning I imagine. (Little Turbine jab... sorry!)

In this mode, you can click on any ress shrine while alive and it will ask if you want to save and close quest. This will log everyone out. This can only be done by the leader.

No timer. When you click on your character to log in again... it says "Party Quest Paused. Do you wish to enter waiting room?" Small room, no character functions except chat. Portal into quest at the shrine you left at...Or Party Quest in Progress, meaning the leader has already restarted. You would port in at the shrine you left on and catch up to the group. Similar to if you "DC'd" at that shrine.

**Once the party leaves that quest, all unlogged characters would be released. - if they clicked to log in it could log in normally - or a pop up message - Paused Quest Completed.... Whatever.

If you decline to enter waiting room... you abandon the group basically and you are free to move about the game freely again.
If you are in the waiting room and no one shows up...you can log out, and re log in and abandon if you wish.

Turbine could charge Astral Shards for this.
The leader should have to pay the entire amount. They would be the only ones who could continue a quest from the waiting room or directly - this is less complicated. The group members are at their own risk then.

I think the whole point of this mechanic is for friends or a guild to have a set group play the maximum amount of time. TR groups are an example - if they were committed to staying together, they could use this mechanic to play until someone had to leave and then everyone parks and no cheating! hehe

Another group that might take advantage are Static Groups - where everyone has agreed to certain rules... always playing on XX and XX time a week for 2 hours each and agreeing not to play those characters otherwise.


Hope this helps get this in Update 34 --- cause I do not feel it serves enough or would earn them enough. But I could see it working.

droid327
09-17-2013, 05:00 PM
What I'm driving at is the same ability to run a quest over several sessions that we had in the pen-and-paper version.


Wait, what quest in DDO takes 2 hours to complete?!


That's what I was wondering, too. That "pick up where you left off last week" functionality already IS in the game, by virtue of "campaigns" (quest packs) being broken up into independent quests. In a way, completing a quest is really just reaching the "save point" of the campaign. Just like you'd run one campaign that tells an overarching story, each quest pack (and now, Sagas, even more broadly) tell an overarching cohesive story.


Larger dungeons can take hours if you are exploring every nook and cranny, grabbing every optional and picking up every collectible. I did this in my first chains of flame run solo and it took me five hours to complete. It was fun. Zerging has it's place and is fun too, but zerging is not the only way to play.

There's a middle ground between zerging and utter completionism. Even completing most optionals and progressing casually, quests shouldn't take more than 45 mins-1 hr. If you want to play uber-completionist, that's fine of course - but just realize that you're an outlier in the playerbase, and don't expect them to implement a special mechanic just so you can log back in tomorrow and finish breaking every single crate in Ruined Halls or looking for the secret rainbow room in Shadow Crypt :)

If that's how you like to play, and you really cant even find a 90 minute block of time to devote to a quest, there's always (aptly-named) Explorer areas, which let you explore around at your own pace without ever 'losing progress' like you do if you quit out of a quest.

hacknoid
09-17-2013, 06:49 PM
That's what I was wondering, too. That "pick up where you left off last week" functionality already IS in the game, by virtue of "campaigns" (quest packs) being broken up into independent quests. In a way, completing a quest is really just reaching the "save point" of the campaign. Just like you'd run one campaign that tells an overarching story, each quest pack (and now, Sagas, even more broadly) tell an overarching cohesive story.



There's a middle ground between zerging and utter completionism. Even completing most optionals and progressing casually, quests shouldn't take more than 45 mins-1 hr. If you want to play uber-completionist, that's fine of course - but just realize that you're an outlier in the playerbase, and don't expect them to implement a special mechanic just so you can log back in tomorrow and finish breaking every single crate in Ruined Halls or looking for the secret rainbow room in Shadow Crypt :)

If that's how you like to play, and you really cant even find a 90 minute block of time to devote to a quest, there's always (aptly-named) Explorer areas, which let you explore around at your own pace without ever 'losing progress' like you do if you quit out of a quest.

Well, quests like The Pit or Spies in the House come to mind, especially the first time you play them. I enjoy the fun of going in with people who do not know a quest, and as such its much more like a true adventure. This can take longer. Basically, most of the quests listed as "very long" WILL take more than an hour to play easily, and can top 2 hrs if you are trying to be careful. VoN is another long one, again, if you're new to it and not just rushing through.

I personally really enjoy the explorer areas for exactly that reason - I can play as long as I have time, and then abandon at any point without feeling I am losing anything. But if I play, say, 5 hours a week, and I have to abandon a quest I have been running for even 1 hour because the end is nowhere in sight, then I am effectively wasting 20% of my play time.

I may be the outlier, but as I said above - something like this may actually attract a user base that otherwise wouldn't play or stick with it.

Charononus
09-17-2013, 07:02 PM
Larger dungeons can take hours if you are exploring every nook and cranny, grabbing every optional and picking up every collectible. I did this in my first chains of flame run solo and it took me five hours to complete. It was fun. Zerging has it's place and is fun too, but zerging is not the only way to play.

Were you taking five min breaks after killing each mob? Seriously I don't know how that quest could take that long and it's one of the longer quests I can think of.

OP

Not signed

There is no need for this because the longest quests in ddo can be done in under two hours by a flower sniffing group as long as they aren't literally taking a 5 minute break after each kill.

Enoach
09-17-2013, 07:33 PM
I am all for casual gamming but I am sorry I just don't see the need for this type of feature in DDO. For me having the optional XP earned on the spot helps groups continue to move forward even if they don't have time now to complete the whole quest.


And I'm one that spent 5 hours in a ELITE VON3 back long ago my first time through when XP death penalty existed and shrines could only be used once, even the raise shrines. It took us 45 minutes to get to the end fight, and the rest of the time to beat the boss - no TR, no TWINK and even then after I completed I walked out 1 level lower then when I started. Sure we should of just quit after the 3rd attempt but boy was it fun :).

Havok.cry
09-17-2013, 07:39 PM
Were you taking five min breaks after killing each mob? Seriously I don't know how that quest could take that long and it's one of the longer quests I can think of.

OP

Not signed

There is no need for this because the longest quests in ddo can be done in under two hours by a flower sniffing group as long as they aren't literally taking a 5 minute break after each kill.

Solo at level elite chains of flame. I was on a AA elf fighter back in 2010, when the devs still really hated ranged combat... it sometimes took me five minutes just to kill a mob. I picked up every collectible, did every optional. I rescued every slave, even the extra ones. When you don't have spells helping you out, to get some of them I had to drop down and re-cover ground I had already cleared... I had to do this many times. The map was unfamiliar (and I won't look at the wiki on my first time through a dungeon) to me and I got turned around in this process several times. I had to examine all the ledges to see if they went anywhere. I had to figure out why there were portals way down in the lava. I had no blindness ward item and no remove blindness pots until I looted the ogre magi chest. That fight took a long time. I had no speed boosts as I was not the best player at keeping, or even sometimes getting, consumables, and it was my first life. Now days I can complete it a lot faster than that first run (average 30 minutes solo, same archer a few lives later). Coalescence chamber took me longer on my first run though... also solo. Shadow crypt took me about four hours the first time through, no wiki, no guide, solo, same archer.

I do have to point out to you, that while any group CAN complete any quest in a fairly short amount of time, very few quests have time limits, and no one is bound by forum instituted time limits on their quests unless they want to be.

What I am wondering is, since this would have no impact on your gameplay at all, and it would improve the gameplay of others, why are you opposed to the idea? I know alot of solo players who would love this feature. I know a lot of players that are parents or spouses that would love this feature. I know a lot of horny guys with willing girlfriends-that-need-it-now-not-later that would love this feature. I know drunken people who fall asleep at the keyboard that would love this feature. So again, why would you be opposed to a feature that would have no impact on you at all, but would help many others enjoy the game more?

Havok.cry
09-17-2013, 07:51 PM
and don't expect them to implement a special mechanic
My expectations of turbine are low.... pretty much non-existant. I would expect an ant colony under my house to start cooking me twelve course meals on silver, before I would actually expect turbine to do anything I want. That won't stop me from wanting turbine to do things. I hope you can appreciate the difference between wanting and expecting.

Charononus
09-17-2013, 10:46 PM
What I am wondering is, since this would have no impact on your gameplay at all, and it would improve the gameplay of others, why are you opposed to the idea? I know alot of solo players who would love this feature. I know a lot of players that are parents or spouses that would love this feature. I know a lot of horny guys with willing girlfriends-that-need-it-now-not-later that would love this feature. I know drunken people who fall asleep at the keyboard that would love this feature. So again, why would you be opposed to a feature that would have no impact on you at all, but would help many others enjoy the game more?

1) Dev time is limited, doing this would take dev's off of other things whether it be new content or bug fixes.

2) I have zero confidence that it would go well, I think it would have the potential to break quests for a significant amount of time before it was fixed.

3) Someone would find a griefing method to do it.

It fails risk/reward is my basic reasoning.

Havok.cry
09-17-2013, 11:12 PM
1) Dev time is limited, doing this would take dev's off of other things whether it be new content or bug fixes.

What if it takes dev time away from "Improving the UI" or some other thing that everyone despises? Devs are going to spend time on other things than new content and bug fixes. They do something other than those two in every update. This is a superior option to something that actually impacts your gameplay.


2) I have zero confidence that it would go well, I think it would have the potential to break quests for a significant amount of time before it was fixed. I agree, turbine is great at breaking things and mediocre at everything else. New content and Bug Fixes have proven to have the highest chance of breaking things though.


3) Someone would find a griefing method to do it.With enough imagination, you can find a greifing method to do anything.


It fails risk/reward is my basic reasoning.By your statements and my basic reasoning, anything turbine could ever do fails risk/reward. I would rather them attempt something that some would want and others not care, than attempt something most despise and a few not care about. Whatever they attempt, something will break.

Havok.cry
09-17-2013, 11:20 PM
If I were designing this feature, this is what I would do:

I would have it be a permanent character item in the DDO store (they have to make money somehow, and I would be willing to spend TP on this). It would be an item in your inventory that sets up a tent. Only you could enter it. You go in, log off and when you log back in you leave the tent and are back in the dungeon exactly where you left it. Other party members would not be able to use it, they would need there own. You could group in tent only with people who were in your party when you entered the tent.

It may need refining, but that is the basics of what I would do.

Charononus
09-17-2013, 11:21 PM
What if it takes dev time away from "Improving the UI" or some other thing that everyone despises? Devs are going to spend time on other things than new content and bug fixes. They do something other than those two in every update. This is a superior option to something that actually impacts your gameplay.
Most of those have been getting a framework ready for other money grab type things, they'll shut the servers off before they take people off of those projects.


I agree, turbine is great at breaking things and mediocre at everything else. New content and Bug Fixes have proven to have the highest chance of breaking things though.

Actually I think a major mechanic and data storage change like this would have far far higher risk than any new content. It'd be similar to the physics engine update and that broke soooooooo many things.


With enough imagination, you can find a greifing method to do anything.

True enough but the goal should be to not make it easy.

Havok.cry
09-17-2013, 11:28 PM
Most of those have been getting a framework ready for other money grab type things, they'll shut the servers off before they take people off of those projects.


If you make it a DDO store item, it IS one of those things and by default would take those people. Heck you could make it a DDO store item like my one post suggests, and then make it take astral shards to set the tent up each time.

Uska
09-18-2013, 12:16 AM
Lots of multi-player games allow saving (in some older ones it was fundamental), and the developers really have all the things they need. As I said before, it's a suggestion, not a design document, and it might not make sense in pick-up-groups.

Name one MMO that has this and what multiplayer games other than RTS games have this? I cant think of any multiplayer rpg's that might have it single player ones yes but this is a pretty much a completely unworkable idea for a MMO plus pretty pointless given the time it takes to complete a quest here, if you cant finish one come back and do it the next time if you have a static group.

Havok.cry
09-18-2013, 12:19 AM
Name one MMO that has this and what multiplayer games other than RTS games have this? I cant think of any multiplayer rpg's that might have it single player ones yes but this is a pretty much a completely unworkable idea for a MMO plus pretty pointless given the time it takes to complete a quest here, if you cant finish one come back and do it the next time if you have a static group.

WoW currently allows you to save your progress in raids. I despise wow almost as much as I despise the forgotten realms (its really close), but sometimes they have a good idea.

Charononus
09-18-2013, 12:26 AM
WoW currently allows you to save your progress in raids. I despise wow almost as much as I despise the forgotten realms (its really close), but sometimes they have a good idea.

Back when I played wow it was also a major pita.

Meetch1972
09-18-2013, 12:43 AM
I'm all for the general principle. The hard part is how to implement, and how hard depends on what's under the covers.

Key points to how I see it might work:
* It could only be done when no encounters are under way - perhaps only at rest shrines.
* Some sort of object save / restore framework for dungeon instances and all the contents.
* Leader hits the save button. Assuming it's "safe" to do so, all timers within the dungeons and on the characters are paused, the dungeon instance saves everything, toons have the option to log out and appear in a "running quest X" state at the login screen, or leave the dungeon.
* The instance closes when everyone is out - logged out or left the dungeon.
* On first reentry, the dungeon object is restored in its entirety. All item use is locked out, all timers on all buffs / debuffs are paused. Characters cannot move (but can talk, emote and/or choose to leave the dungeon). If characters leave the dungeon, the instance will re-save unless everyone who was in it at the save has left, in which case it would reset.
* There's a resume button that appears to the leader after everyone is in or nobody has entered for 2 minutes (Sorry George, we're running without you). Hit the button, plug in how many seconds to count down (say allow from 5 seconds to 20).
* Everyone gets the countdown to dungeon resume. Then all timers are resumed and all gameplay returns to normal.
* Late returners are treated as if they had DCed and returned. If the dungeon has completed, they find themselves outside the entrance or explorer area when they enter.

If it's done right, there would be no exploit opportunity, though it does take away the immersion while it's happening. The keys though are:
* That you can step away from the quest if you want
* That you can choose to continue the quest if you want
* That it's a genuine pause / save facility for those who want it, with no do-over functionality.

Darn tricky to pull off, but if it happened I'd be most impressed. :) I'd be guessing almost every dungeon would need a rewrite to support it though, even if relatively minor.

Uska
09-18-2013, 12:49 AM
WoW currently allows you to save your progress in raids. I despise wow almost as much as I despise the forgotten realms (its really close), but sometimes they have a good idea.

Personallly I dont call that a good idea but thats me and yah FR is much worse than WoW

bartharok
09-18-2013, 02:33 AM
While the save function might be useful for some, i still find it a bad idea.

I could have used it a few times when i have been called away in the middle of a quest for an emergency or other, but still i dont like the idea at all.

Worldcrafter
09-18-2013, 02:36 AM
As an alternative method to copy all the information, close it down, and then reload it when you return, how about an item that logs you off, but still keeps your presence active in the dungeon? Much like how if you get disconnected, if you log back on within a certain time you're still in the dungeon - when you use the item, you suspend the DC timer until you log back in again. This way, the dungeon is preserved, and I think a timer suspension would be a bit easier to implement then entire dungeon copy/paste system. The downside is that if your party continues without you, you return to an empty dungeon and possibly lose out on chest contents. But, if you're playing with a regular group or soloing, the risk of that is minimal.

Missing_Minds
09-18-2013, 03:25 AM
WoW currently allows you to save your progress in raids. I despise wow almost as much as I despise the forgotten realms (its really close), but sometimes they have a good idea.
Lets put things in perspective as well.

While I've not played WoW once, I've a few friends that played it for a long long time. Heck a few got married to the folks they met through WoW. And back then... a raid could take a few days. So in order to take breaks they had saves. Heck, I think LoTRO has something similar now that I think back for the same reason.

So... what quests do we have that can take days?

Meetch1972
09-18-2013, 04:36 AM
Lets put things in perspective as well.

While I've not played WoW once, I've a few friends that played it for a long long time. Heck a few got married to the folks they met through WoW. And back then... a raid could take a few days. So in order to take breaks they had saves. Heck, I think LoTRO has something similar now that I think back for the same reason.

So... what quests do we have that can take days?

Personally, I gave up on Everquest many years ago when I could never guarantee sitting at the PC for more than a few hours (and I was single back then!), and WoW is of course much worse if it takes days... DDO is a godsend for my sporadic ability to commit to play.

The static group who have never seen the quest will take hours at least to run some stuff, especially running no spoilers at level. How long might it take such a group to get through their first Shroud ? Granted this group is on the fringe of users, but they do exist. I joined one for lols, carefully avoiding showing or telling them how the quests they were running were done, and they were learning, but rushing anything usually meant death somewhere - even me rushing ahead, despite knowing what to expect. We had fun, even if for completely different reasons. Our play window was 3 hours - enough to run 1 or 2 reasonable length quests, and revisit a quest for higher favor toward the end if they were pretty sure they could do it based on past experience.

Now if a casual group only gets a 1 or 2 hour window to play say once a week, I can imagine them getting deterred by a quest entrance saying "Duration: Very Long". It would be a waste running things like Crucible, Von 5 (+6), quests you can get lost in or have to figure out puzzles or lead rats through a maze...

Also, having a save/restore mechanism of sorts might provide for the ability to create epic length quests - even if you're soloing, a real dungeon crawl could be spread over several hours played across many days. I believe it has potential if thought through and done properly. So I'm for the idea.

But... it won't be easy to implement. Of that I'm pretty sure. :)

Meetch1972
09-18-2013, 04:45 AM
As an alternative method to copy all the information, close it down, and then reload it when you return, how about an item that logs you off, but still keeps your presence active in the dungeon?

Maintaining an instance for a character that isn't logged in would at the least consume significantly more memory. Multiply that by the number of characters each user has and we'd have the potential to grief Turbine. :D Hence I wouldn't consider keeping anything open (but disk is relatively cheap in comparison to save everything needed by an instance or even save the instance as a memory dump to disk for loading back later like some kind of quasi Virtual Machine).

lyrecono
09-18-2013, 06:11 AM
i...i...i don't believe it, so long for a quest???

how about taking half competent people with you?
Trie shorter quest?
Use the lfm to ask for a guide?
Learn to play faster (striding boots, haste clickies, not being drunk, stoned or both resulting in falling asleep every 5 minutes?)
Go to a medical specialist and get your Narcileptic tendencies looked at?

anyway,

/NOT SIGNED!

I rather have the dev's create new raids, new packs, create real named loot (instead of a lazy random named loot generator).
To much time and effort has already been spend to cater to the lowest denominator
why waste the dev's time for something that could be easely remedied in game?

i realy wished i could use this beautifull qoute
Well, what I want you to do is pull up your frilly stockings, tighten your thong, and stop being such ... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcL46NjFDJU&noredirect=1)

but i'm afraid some one might get offended, so i'll put it like this:

Please stop wasting the forum's time, before some one at Turbine reads this and thinks this is a good idea and pull's resources away.

lyrecono
09-18-2013, 08:28 AM
Personally, I gave up on Everquest many years ago when I could never guarantee sitting at the PC for more than a few hours (and I was single back then!), and WoW is of course much worse if it takes days... DDO is a godsend for my sporadic ability to commit to play.

The static group who have never seen the quest will take hours at least to run some stuff, especially running no spoilers at level. How long might it take such a group to get through their first Shroud ? Granted this group is on the fringe of users, but they do exist. I joined one for lols, carefully avoiding showing or telling them how the quests they were running were done, and they were learning, but rushing anything usually meant death somewhere - even me rushing ahead, despite knowing what to expect. We had fun, even if for completely different reasons. Our play window was 3 hours - enough to run 1 or 2 reasonable length quests, and revisit a quest for higher favor toward the end if they were pretty sure they could do it based on past experience.

Now if a casual group only gets a 1 or 2 hour window to play say once a week, I can imagine them getting deterred by a quest entrance saying "Duration: Very Long". It would be a waste running things like Crucible, Von 5 (+6), quests you can get lost in or have to figure out puzzles or lead rats through a maze...

Also, having a save/restore mechanism of sorts might provide for the ability to create epic length quests - even if you're soloing, a real dungeon crawl could be spread over several hours played across many days. I believe it has potential if thought through and done properly. So I'm for the idea.

But... it won't be easy to implement. Of that I'm pretty sure. :)

Von 5/6 are raids, not quests, they are meant to last longer but honnestly? 20 min each should suffice.
Also, it can't be solo'd due to game mechanics.
If you want to learn how to play them fast, send a in game email/tell or make a forum post resembling this:

Hi, i would like to learn how to do von 5-6 in a fast manner, i do however have a limited window of oppertunity to play: <insert game time/date>
Could a patient group of vets take me along for the ride and explain how it works?
these are my toons <insert names>
i bet some one will help you in no time.

Remember, this is an MMO, the quest are designed to cater to 4-6 people with different class abilities, if you can't do lengthy quests in time on your own, strongly consider grouping up. Otherwise, i recomend playing something like Skyrim or Oblivion, i think it has co-op mods.

Havok.cry
09-18-2013, 08:45 AM
Lets put things in perspective as well.

While I've not played WoW once, I've a few friends that played it for a long long time. Heck a few got married to the folks they met through WoW. And back then... a raid could take a few days. So in order to take breaks they had saves. Heck, I think LoTRO has something similar now that I think back for the same reason.

So... what quests do we have that can take days?

1-just like people say no quest in ddo should take more than an hour, no dungeon in WoW ever took a few days unless you count all the time waiting for the group to fill, and all the retries after repeated wipe. Seriously even in the original WoW before the first expansions, actual time in dungeon for a single succesful run was only a matter of hours not days.
2-The save feature in WoW is relatively new and did not exist back when wow's raids actually took a few hours in dungeon.

So let me get this straight, the consensus is that it won't help the forum's elite, but might help many less elite players who have real life occasionally interrupt their playing, so it should never ever be allowed to happen? Sorry, but you all have sunk to a new low.

Havok.cry
09-18-2013, 08:48 AM
Maintaining an instance for a character that isn't logged in would at the least consume significantly more memory. Multiply that by the number of characters each user has and we'd have the potential to grief Turbine. :D Hence I wouldn't consider keeping anything open (but disk is relatively cheap in comparison to save everything needed by an instance or even save the instance as a memory dump to disk for loading back later like some kind of quasi Virtual Machine).

The memory could be used on our end instead of their end... just like most saved games.

Archangel_666
09-18-2013, 08:53 AM
The memory could be used on our end instead of their end... just like most saved games.

Perhaps, though I would imagine that Turbine would be reluctant to do something like that.

Files on our computers can potentially be manipulated...

Havok.cry
09-18-2013, 08:53 AM
Von 5/6 are raids, not quests, they are meant to last longer but honnestly? 20 min each should suffice.
Also, it can't be solo'd due to game mechanics.
If you want to learn how to play them fast, send a in game email/tell or make a forum post resembling this:

Hi, i would like to learn how to do von 5-6 in a fast manner, i do however have a limited window of oppertunity to play: <insert game time/date>
Could a patient group of vets take me along for the ride and explain how it works?
these are my toons <insert names>
i bet some one will help you in no time.

Remember, this is an MMO, the quest are designed to cater to 4-6 people with different class abilities, if you can't do lengthy quests in time on your own, strongly consider grouping up. Otherwise, i recomend playing something like Skyrim or Oblivion, i think it has co-op mods.

So what you are saying is that a tool that would make exploring something like von 5-6 and figuring it out on their own easier for a static, but inexperienced group should never be implemented and they should have to suffer either a gigantic block of continuous time, or not be allowed to figure it out themselves?

Is there any objection to this that does not involve trying to force people to play the way you want them to?

almaniac
09-18-2013, 09:46 AM
Perhaps, though I would imagine that Turbine would be reluctant to do something like that.

Files on our computers can potentially be manipulated...

As a software engineer myself, I'd say leave the implementation / architecture objections to the developers. I'm sure there are valid issues, but unless we know a lot about their code base and how it works there's no point speculating about how hard (or easy for that matter) it would be for them.

Lots of good ideas in the thread though. I would so love to see this someday.

Uska
09-18-2013, 10:14 AM
1-just like people say no quest in ddo should take more than an hour, no dungeon in WoW ever took a few days unless you count all the time waiting for the group to fill, and all the retries after repeated wipe. Seriously even in the original WoW before the first expansions, actual time in dungeon for a single succesful run was only a matter of hours not days.
2-The save feature in WoW is relatively new and did not exist back when wow's raids actually took a few hours in dungeon.

So let me get this straight, the consensus is that it won't help the forum's elite, but might help many less elite players who have real life occasionally interrupt their playing, so it should never ever be allowed to happen? Sorry, but you all have sunk to a new low.

No it's a horrible idea period no ifs ands or buts and saying wow has doesn't make it a better idea at all

Charononus
09-18-2013, 01:07 PM
The memory could be used on our end instead of their end... just like most saved games.

That's a horrible idea, it means that you'd have to trust the client. That was nwo's mistake and it's why they have mod scripts out for that game now where you can have unlimited resources. You never ever ever trust the client in an mmo, if you do someone will hack and exploit it, repeatedly.


So what you are saying is that a tool that would make exploring something like von 5-6 and figuring it out on their own easier for a static, but inexperienced group should never be implemented and they should have to suffer either a gigantic block of continuous time, or not be allowed to figure it out themselves?

Is there any objection to this that does not involve trying to force people to play the way you want them to?

Hmmm I think we all figured it out just fine, I'm not good with their entitlement where they think new possibly game breaking features should be added to cater to their extremely niche playstyle. However I did give you several reasons earlier in the thread why it's a bad idea that had nothing to do with playstyle.


1-just like people say no quest in ddo should take more than an hour, no dungeon in WoW ever took a few days unless you count all the time waiting for the group to fill, and all the retries after repeated wipe. Seriously even in the original WoW before the first expansions, actual time in dungeon for a single succesful run was only a matter of hours not days.
2-The save feature in WoW is relatively new and did not exist back when wow's raids actually took a few hours in dungeon.

So let me get this straight, the consensus is that it won't help the forum's elite, but might help many less elite players who have real life occasionally interrupt their playing, so it should never ever be allowed to happen? Sorry, but you all have sunk to a new low.

I think I played wow in 2007, the save feature was there back then, and it is a massive pita. It was one of the many many things I was glad to leave behind.

bsquishwizzy
09-18-2013, 01:37 PM
The title pretty much says it all. I used to play regularly with a group of 7 other people. Now we're down to 2 (including me) for one simple reason; frustration over not being able to finish longer quests in a reasonable amount of time.

We all are pretty busy but we set aside 2 hours a week to play, and we all had VIP accounts. Unfortunately, that meant we could often do only a single adventure, and sometimes not even that. While we love the story telling and richness of the long adventures, we just didn't end up playing them, and after awhile the shorter content gets dry (how many times can you do an orchard run?).

If we could save the progress of the party it would totally transform the game for us, and we'd get the rest of the guys back I'm sure. We can't be the only ones who would like this. It would even be awesome for soloing.

Mechanically it could work like this perhaps:

1) When no combat is ensuing, the party leader can initiate a save.
2) Saving logs those characters out. We don't want it to become a "redo", or a way to keep retrying a difficult part of the dungeon.
3) A timer starts on those characters (1 hour? 3 hours?). Until the timer ends they cannot log back in.
4) Some time later the party logs back in.
5) The characters go to some kind of lobby or something until everyone is in, or the party leader re-starts the dungeon.
6) Once restarted characters that don't come back are affected the same way they would be if they left the dungeon; so is the party.
7) New characters can join the party with all the usual consequences of joining late.
8) A player can pull their character out of the saved dungeon any time after the timer ends, but they will not be able to re-join the saved state except as a new joiner.

Anyway, something like that would be huge for us. It would allow people with only a couple hours (or less) at a time to fully enjoy the game.

I understand the attraction for this kind of capability, but in a real-time game / MMO this will probably never happen. The mechanics to make this happen would be both a resource hog, and a nightmare to implement.

First, they only feasible / safe place to put a saved game would be on the server. Transferring stuff back and forth to a client-side PC and making it all sync up without the potential for loss of communications is a lot of work for little-to-no benefit. That means you have to create an image of the quest somewhere as to where you left of: what mobs you killed, where you were, what loot you had, what level you were on…and so on. That can potentially be a lot of data. I won’t even go into people hacking saved games as an easy exploit.

So you have to preserve that data somewhere, for an unspecified amount of time, on the server. That means a growing disk allocation for saved games. Somewhere in there you need to determine how long do you keep a saved game before determining that it is abandoned, and them blowing it away with some housekeeping process running on the server. This means disk access, possibly more lag and so on. Not a good thing.

And what happens when one of the players decides to drop group, or run it independently of the group? Then you have to remove that player from the saved game, replace the stuff he took and place it somewhere in the game, or delete it altogether. Or, you lock out the player from playing the game until either the saved game goes away, or until the quest is complete. Because there is a possibility that the player may level-up outside of the quest, and that throws off the quest entirely. I mean, there are a gabazillion variables that come into play when you decide to “freeze” a quest in time in a system that is basically considered “real time.”

Either way you slice it, it is a convoluted mess that has ZERO payback for the amount of work you have to put into it. It works on a PC or with limited, static groups. In an MMO like DDO it is a nightmare all around.

lyrecono
09-18-2013, 02:31 PM
So what you are saying is that a tool that would make exploring something like von 5-6 and figuring it out on their own easier for a static, but inexperienced group should never be implemented and they should have to suffer either a gigantic block of continuous time, or not be allowed to figure it out themselves?

Is there any objection to this that does not involve trying to force people to play the way you want them to?

you cant figure it out for yourself, it requires multiple players for von 5/6, so yeah, running along vets cost less effort then having an entire feature programmed in by the dev's, especialy since the devs have such a looooong track record of f-ing stuf up with updates.

Have make raids or new packs, not more catering to the functionally impaired, it has been done far to much so far, whats next? tinkerbell like guides to quests and npc's? leaving a pretty stardust line? please
go seek in game help if you cant make it on your own. Use DDO Wiki if you're stomped. A MMO is a social game, be social, if not go play a console game with a pause/save function.
Don't make m waste money on a few , while the rest of the community suffers for it in the form of no bugs, people leaving(taking a break), no raids/packs etc.

so yeah, kinda egotistical to ask for this, now that you know what the impact will be.
We don't build an extra lane onto the freeway so people can practice on their (non motorized) tricycle, we keep m of the road to save money, for all our safety and sanity.

No to special aids, the game is on life support as it is, bleeding players left and right and bug ridden, this new "feature" is a detriment to the game

Havok.cry
09-18-2013, 03:11 PM
That's a horrible idea, it means that you'd have to trust the client. That was nwo's mistake and it's why they have mod scripts out for that game now where you can have unlimited resources. You never ever ever trust the client in an mmo, if you do someone will hack and exploit it, repeatedly. This is the only argument against the idea that anyone has put out that even seems rational to me. I have no argument against it.




Hmmm I think we all figured it out just fine, I'm not good with their entitlement where they think new possibly game breaking features should be added to cater to their extremely niche playstyle. However I did give you several reasons earlier in the thread why it's a bad idea that had nothing to do with playstyle. No one has displayed entitlement in this discussion. Entitlement is believing you deserve, or are entitled to something. Wanting a feature because you think it would be useful and making arguments in it's support does not equate to entitlement. The reasons you gave earlier, I answered. The fear of the devs breaking something is irrational, as they are 100% guaranteed to break something every time they do anything.




I think I played wow in 2007, the save feature was there back then, and it is a massive pita. It was one of the many many things I was glad to leave behind. Maybe they had a different save feature back then than the one I am thinking of. The one I am thinking of was new with mists of pandaria, one of their latest expansions. I have used it and found it very useful, it was not a hassle at all. Would you explain what the problem with it was when you used it?

Hoglum
09-18-2013, 03:17 PM
Von 5/6 are raids, not quests, they are meant to last longer but honnestly? 20 min each should suffice.



Haha, you figured out VON 5/6 in 20 min.?

lyrecono
09-18-2013, 03:36 PM
Haha, you figured out VON 5/6 in 20 min.?

the original post mentioned 20 min each, and yes it gets done often

Havok.cry
09-18-2013, 03:40 PM
you cant figure it out for yourself, it requires multiple players for von 5/6, so yeah, running along vets cost less effort then having an entire feature programmed in by the dev's, especialy since the devs have such a looooong track record of f-ing stuf up with updates.You are terrible at arguing, but I find feeding trolls to be entertaining, so here goes:

1-as I have said many times, the devs will break anything and everything they do. The devs will do things. So being against an idea based on the the idea that the devs might break something while trying to implement it is not rational.

2-The devs that are making new raids and quests are not the devs that are would work on this if turbine ever tried it.


Have make raids or new packs, not more catering to the functionally impaired, it has been done far to much so far, whats next? tinkerbell like guides to quests and npc's? leaving a pretty stardust line? please
go seek in game help if you cant make it on your own. Use DDO Wiki if you're stomped. A MMO is a social game, be social, if not go play a console game with a pause/save function.
Don't make m waste money on a few , while the rest of the community suffers for it in the form of no bugs, people leaving(taking a break), no raids/packs etc.Alot more people than the functionally impaired would find this feature useful. Anyone who has had a mom interrupt their gaming would use this. Anyone who has had wife aggro would use this. Anyone who has an on call job would use this. Anyone who only has a few minutes in small blocks would be able to use this. It would functionally open the game up to a wider audience. It would also not effect anyone who would not use it at all. You claim this is a social game, but you are seemingly of the opinion that all the social responsibilities of real life should be discarded, or the people who must meet them should be penalized by having to restart quests when real life responsibilities take them away from the game. I have to assume that you do not actually understand real social interaction.

Further as many, in many threads have said, the devs that work on bugs are not the devs that work on content and different from both of those are the devs that make new features. Those devs' time will never be spent fixing bugs. So having them work on a new feature that some, not you, but some, might want will never ever ever take away from devs fixing bugs.


so yeah, kinda egotistical to ask for this, now that you know what the impact will be.
We don't build an extra lane onto the freeway so people can practice on their (non motorized) tricycle, we keep m of the road to save money, for all our safety and sanity. This is pretty much text book bullying. Trying to make me feel guilty for even having an opinion that is different from yours. Seriously you should stop that now while you aren't too far behind.


No to special aids, the game is on life support as it is, bleeding players left and right and bug ridden, this new "feature" is a detriment to the game While some people might use a save feature as a crutch to get through content, many others, including some of the best players I know, would use it to over come real life time constraints. Making inconvenient things more convenient without effecting the difficulty or entertainment value of the content would not have the effect you are describing. The game is on life support for many reasons, but not for things like this. This is a "special aid" as much as more backpack or bank space would be.

Havok.cry
09-18-2013, 03:44 PM
As to the argument against making things only for niche players, that argument, according to the devs would be a valid excuse to never ever make a raid again. I don't find it a valid reason for either raids or this.

Hoglum
09-18-2013, 04:02 PM
the original post mentioned 20 min each, and yes it gets done often

I didn't ask if they get done that fast. I asked if you figured them out that fast.

Charononus
09-18-2013, 04:55 PM
I didn't ask if they get done that fast. I asked if you figured them out that fast.

yup because I wasn't playing when it was first released and so the first time I ran it, I said hey I'm a newb can you explain what's going on as you do it? 20-30mins later we had completed and I knew the raid.

Hoglum
09-18-2013, 05:30 PM
yup because I wasn't playing when it was first released and so the first time I ran it, I said hey I'm a newb can you explain what's going on as you do it? 20-30mins later we had completed and I knew the raid.


Wow, I didn't even ask you anything.

BTW, getting taught isn't figuring anything out either, so you're answer should not have been "yup". It should have be "nup" or something like that.

lyrecono
09-18-2013, 05:30 PM
You are terrible at arguing, but I find feeding trolls to be entertaining, so here goes:
I don't denie that, lots of it gets lost in translation. And on occasion i will be taken for a troll, my posts in this tread have been unusually harsh in this tread, i usually reserve my bile for dev errors

1-as I have said many times, the devs will break anything and everything they do. The devs will do things. So being against an idea based on the the idea that the devs might break something while trying to implement it is not rational.
What ever it is they break, it takes time to repair it, making our game time less fun (usually) and requiring downtime while they patch things up, as they have done a few times now, seems somewhat rational given the past.
2-The devs that are making new raids and quests are not the devs that are would work on this if turbine ever tried it.
It's still a waste of time and money, better spend hire ring good loot/content developers instead of mucking about in old code trying to implement things that do not weigh up against all the costs.
Don't forget that Turbine doesn't have the resources of WoW, even with big (warner) brother looking over their shoulder

Alot more people than the functionally impaired would find this feature useful. Anyone who has had a mom interrupt their gaming would use this. Anyone who has had wife aggro would use this. Anyone who has an on call job would use this. Anyone who only has a few minutes in small blocks would be able to use this. It would functionally open the game up to a wider audience. It would also not effect anyone who would not use it at all. You claim this is a social game, but you are seemingly of the opinion that all the social responsibilities of real life should be discarded, or the people who must meet them should be penalized by having to restart quests when real life responsibilities take them away from the game. I have to assume that you do not actually understand real social interaction.

People mentioned spending 3 (and 5) hours in a quest (not the few minutes you mention), with party members? Something is going horribly wrong here. With a few really rare exceptions, most quests are very straightforeward and require little backtracking. (and yes i'll admit, chains of flame that you mentioned is one of those maze like structures)

An MMO isn't a casual game, it requires things from you, that's why i recommended (console) games with a pause/safe feature.
I also mentioned grouping up (you know, the social part?)
I also mentioned learning stuff (you know, taking advice from those group members, sharpening your skills)

Further as many, in many threads have said, the devs that work on bugs are not the devs that work on content and different from both of those are the devs that make new features. Those devs' time will never be spent fixing bugs. So having them work on a new feature that some, not you, but some, might want will never ever ever take away from devs fixing bugs.

i stated: adding raids/packs and bug fixes

This is pretty much text book bullying. Trying to make me feel guilty for even having an opinion that is different from yours. Seriously you should stop that now while you aren't too far behind.

this was a response to:

Is there any objection to this that does not involve trying to force people to play the way you want them to?<--------i'ts fine if people want to solo quest to figure them out, but all i was saying was: if you can't figure it out, trie to team up (again, the social part) and ask for help, tips what ever, instead of asking for a feature to take a break for a couple of days in what essential is a 30 min quest (an hour at best) because he cant do it in his 2 hours. By this time this person should be playing what? lv 12? atleast lv 10 toon, Grouping up and socializing with said party members should, by now, have given him(her?) that info.


While some people might use a save feature as a crutch to get through content, many others, including some of the best players I know, would use it to over come real life time constraints. Making inconvenient things more convenient without effecting the difficulty or entertainment value of the content would not have the effect you are describing. The game is on life support for many reasons, but not for things like this. This is a "special aid" as much as more backpack or bank space would be.

Most of the content has already been shaped for that, many raids require a quick drop from the airship (or teleporter/wayfinder if you don't have a ship) to get right in the middle of the action.
some exceptions do exist and the effectiveness of you and your party can have a large impact on the speed, but then again, these are just raids.
every time the game is made easier the res of us suffer.
The last loot gen change (creating ghost bane for newbies that leave the game?) made our other loot pre/suffixes disappear. I'm not so sure about their excuse, stating it was unintentional, i recall people reporting this on Lamania back then.
We complained about the terrible loot up there, after days of posting we get the message that the intern(s) working on said loot hadn't been given access to the item part of the Lamania forums, ok, a slight oversight to say the least, but then the loot wasn't properly fixed anyway.
The exp stone meant that a lot of casual players that hang around in the harbor/market place, that never had a toon over lv 8 suddenly began running lv 16+ stuff. They were under geared and unprepared for what lied ahead. not always a fun experience for them and the rest of their party members.
It's bad enough that they exact changes without telling us,
It's bad enough that they exact changes without us asking for them,
It's bad enough that they exact changes without cleaning up the mess they create and if they do, it's more downtime...
I don't trust those butterfingers with the loot tables, let alone implementing a system with potential for a heavy impact on game play.
Should we honestly be spending resources on this system.
Yes i said the game is on life support, adding incentive for 10 min players won't directly make things work, the fact that turbine actually bothered to spend ,money on it to create it might damage the goodwill of the rest of the player base, let alone all the bugs it will bring (just imagine this update would permanently delete all the pinions in the game....)
I wasn't trying to make you feel guilty (trust me, you would have noticed the difference), i was trying to make you understand how incredibly alien the request looks when you zoom out of this picture. You're asking for something that would be far easier to remedy, but you don't seem to understand that A, a MMO isn't a casual game B, all those situations you mentioned aren't suitable for an MMO.

Anyone who has had a mom interrupt their gaming would use this. Do as your told, when your chores are done go play short quests/wilderness area's or a totally different type of game.
Anyone who has had wife aggro would use this. Make deals, spend time on day 1, game 3 hours without interruption on day 2, communication is an important key to a successful relationship.
Anyone who has an on call job would use this. should know better then to play a MMO, go slayer area/solo short quest or play other more casual games, you're basicly paid to wait, don't complain about a MMO
Anyone who only has a few minutes in small blocks would be able to use this. Do you really want me to repeat this?

I apologize if i hurt to many bleeding hearts, the strong emphasis in the posts are there to wake ya up.

lyrecono
09-18-2013, 05:35 PM
I didn't ask if they get done that fast. I asked if you figured them out that fast.

Took me 4 or 5 runs (of von 5) to learn each side, the benefit of splitting up and playing your part, the benefits of effective communication and team work
Thes days i lead my own runs besides guild runs, always successful, and people usually tell me they enjoyed the ride afterwards

lyrecono
09-18-2013, 05:37 PM
Wow, I didn't even ask you anything.

BTW, getting taught isn't figuring anything out either, so you're answer should not have been "yup". It should have be "nup" or something like that.

a decent teacher learns you how to learn, all they did was give me some essentials to work with, my grey matter was still doing plenty of work.

Charononus
09-18-2013, 05:37 PM
Most of the content has already been shaped for that, many raids require a quick drop from the airship (or teleporter/wayfinder if you don't have a ship) to get right in the middle of the action.
some exceptions do exist and the effectiveness of you and your party can have a large impact on the speed, but then again, these are just raids.
every time the game is made easier the res of us suffer.
The last loot gen change (creating ghost bane for newbies that leave the game?) made our other loot pre/suffixes disappear. I'm not so sure about their excuse, stating it was unintentional, i recall people reporting this on Lamania back then.
We complained about the terrible loot up there, after days of posting we get the message that the intern(s) working on said loot hadn't been given access to the item part of the Lamania forums, ok, a slight oversight to say the least, but then the loot wasn't properly fixed anyway.
The exp stone meant that a lot of casual players that hang around in the harbor/market place, that never had a toon over lv 8 suddenly began running lv 16+ stuff. They were under geared and unprepared for what lied ahead. not always a fun experience for them and the rest of their party members.
It's bad enough that they exact changes without telling us,
It's bad enough that they exact changes without us asking for them,
It's bad enough that they exact changes without cleaning up the mess they create and if they do, it's more downtime...
I don't trust those butterfingers with the loot tables, let alone implementing a system with potential for a heavy impact on game play.
Should we honestly be spending resources on this system.
Yes i said the game is on life support, adding incentive for 10 min players won't directly make things work, the fact that turbine actually bothered to spend ,money on it to create it might damage the goodwill of the rest of the player base, let alone all the bugs it will bring (just imagine this update would permanently delete all the pinions in the game....)
I wasn't trying to make you feel guilty (trust me, you would have noticed the difference), i was trying to make you understand how incredibly alien the request looks when you zoom out of this picture. You're asking for something that would be far easier to remedy, but you don't seem to understand that A, a MMO isn't a casual game B, all those situations you mentioned aren't suitable for an MMO.

Anyone who has had a mom interrupt their gaming would use this. Do as your told, when your chores are done go play short quests/wilderness area's or a totally different type of game.
Anyone who has had wife aggro would use this. Make deals, spend time on day 1, game 3 hours without interruption on day 2, communication is an important key to a successful relationship.
Anyone who has an on call job would use this. should know better then to play a MMO, go slayer area/solo short quest or play other more casual games, you're basicly paid to wait, don't complain about a MMO
Anyone who only has a few minutes in small blocks would be able to use this. Do you really want me to repeat this?

I apologize if i hurt to many bleeding hearts, the strong emphasis in the posts are there to wake ya up.

a little wot but well said

Hoglum
09-18-2013, 05:41 PM
So it would seem both you and that Charon fellow both used...


tinkerbell like guides


How precious.

Charononus
09-18-2013, 05:52 PM
So it would seem both you and that Charon fellow both used...


tinkerbell like guides



How precious.

Yes because talking to people in a social game is the same as following the glowing line in your world got it. Please go play a console game, it's what you seem to want to do anyways.

Hoglum
09-18-2013, 05:52 PM
All teasing aside, don't you guys think something like this might help us get BIGGER dungeons maybe? Or more people playing (even if they are people with jobs)?

I think things as they are are fine but imagine some seriously huge dungeon crawls. It might be cool. I doubt we'll ever see them with no method of saving the dungeon somehow. It could also be a nice way for Dungeons and Dragons to set itself apart from other MMO's. People might like -> IF there was a sound way to implement it. There are some good concerns here but perhaps they could be overcome.

Think of the possible future, not the small dungeons we already have & you'll see where I'm coming from. I'm talking 10 crucibles piled on top of each other. If you recall, you start over - BUT there are places you can stop to log out somehow.

Hoglum
09-18-2013, 05:59 PM
Yes because talking to people in a social game is the same as following the glowing line in your world got it.

This is an absolutely amazing sentence. What on earth are you talking about?

Charononus
09-18-2013, 06:00 PM
All teasing aside, don't you guys think something like this might help us get BIGGER dungeons maybe?
No because it will likely break the game so badly that they will close the servers immediately after because no one will be left. Even if it doesn't one of the things I liked about this game is that all quests can be done in under an hour.


Or more people playing (even if they are people with jobs)?

if I was their boss they would be fired, not accomediating them on this will likely help keep them employed. I'm just trying to help =P


I think things as they are are fine but imagine some seriously huge dungeon crawls. It might be cool. I doubt we'll ever see them with no method of saving the dungeon somehow.
Not really wow has always had this for raids and it just caused issues because you never got all the people back, and then you tried picking up a pug or an alternate, and it's always a pita.


It could also be a nice way for Dungeons and Dragons to set itself apart from other MMO's.
set it's self apart by incorporating a feature wow has had for a long time, umm.......

People might like -> IF there was a sound way to implement it.
There isn't even, even with no bugs the system causes problems.

There are some good concerns here but perhaps they could be overcome.
They can't be.


Think of the possible future,
I am, I think this is such a major change that the engine would have to have a total rewrite or it would completely break and kill the game.

not the small dungeons we already have & you'll see where I'm coming from. I'm talking 10 crucibles piled on top of each other. If you recall, you start over - BUT there are places you can stop to log out somehow.
Why would this be better? Now you get series of quests on a story line called gianthold, you do each quest and take a break, putting all of gianthold as one big quest would just be a headache.

Charononus
09-18-2013, 06:04 PM
This is an absolutely amazing sentence. What on earth are you talking about?

you know the tinkerbell like guide statement you made? Aparently you don't understand what the other poster was referencing with it. Here's a picture from neverwinter so you can understand.

http://wac.7725.edgecastcdn.net/807725/website/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/screenshot_2013-05-02-14-41-09.jpg

lyrecono
09-18-2013, 06:05 PM
All teasing aside, don't you guys think something like this might help us get BIGGER dungeons maybe? Or more people playing (even if they are people with jobs)?

I think things as they are are fine but imagine some seriously huge dungeon crawls. It might be cool. I doubt we'll ever see them with no method of saving the dungeon somehow. It could also be a nice way for Dungeons and Dragons to set itself apart from other MMO's. People might like -> IF there was a sound way to implement it. There are some good concerns here but perhaps they could be overcome.

Think of the possible future, not the small dungeons we already have & you'll see where I'm coming from. I'm talking 10 crucibles piled on top of each other. If you recall, you start over - BUT there are places you can stop to log out somehow.

uhmmmm, i have a 40 hours a week job (though 50-60 comes closer)
I have a rich family live
i have friends who i spend time with
i teach/learn martial arts...
i don't mind people with jobs playing DDO

I wouldn't mind world largest dungeon (http://www.worldslargestdungeon.com/) type of thing either. (it could even have a prize for those who complete it first)
to hard to implement in ddo, but a separate engine and server....transferring your toon there (like Lamania), anly being able to save at certain (obtainable points) that actually looks like a nice idea
nobody would log back into the DDO servers though XD

lyrecono
09-18-2013, 06:08 PM
[QUOTE=Charononus;5105858]you know the tinkerbell like guide statement you made? Aparently you don't understand what the other poster was referencing with it. Here's a picture from neverwinter so you can understand.

yep, thats the one

RedHost
09-18-2013, 06:12 PM
just like people say no quest in ddo should take more than an hour, no dungeon in WoW ever took a few days unless you count all the time waiting for the group to fill, and all the retries after repeated wipe. Seriously even in the original WoW before the first expansions, actual time in dungeon for a single succesful run was only a matter of hours not days.
I really don't know how to even react to this. Either you have no experience with what you are talking about and just trying to make something up, or you honestly believe that the first people going into Molten Core were clearing it in one evening. Let alone another pre-expansion WoW dungeon like Nax, which has several dozen bosses, each of which could take an experienced group an hour each. Saying something just to say something is sounding far more likely....

DDO has absolutely nothing in the game like this. Nothing even close. DDO is an extremely casual game as it is, and has no reason to divert resources into something that would be a major change that nearly no one would have any reason to use.

This has nothing to do with hardcore players verses casual players. Since it was mentioned before, the very first time that I ever ran Chains of Flame, I did so in a PermaDeath group. We scouted out the encounters before we engaged them. We did not have the layout memorized. We worked out way through it extremely slowly. And still, the run was just over an hour and a half. It's hard to argue anything being more casual than a bunch of at-level players with sub-par gear playing extremely cautiously. I honestly can not see how it could take any longer than that without excessive amounts of AFKing.

Quests are intentionally kept to manageable chunks. This is why we have chains, such as Sorrowdusk, rather than simply making it two massive dungeon crawls as it would be in a published D&D module. If there is a problem with not being able to accomplish things in a two hour block, then perhaps time usage needs to be examined. Rather than wasting 40 minutes of that time getting everyone together, getting everyone ship buffs, realizing that you need to go back and sell off vendor trash, etc..... try getting that type of thing done before your group logs on. If everyone is ready to play, two hours should be enough to accomplish whatever you want to do.

Havok.cry
09-18-2013, 07:15 PM
I have said my piece. I think it would be a good idea. I also don't think I will convince any of you of that. I know for sure none of you will ever convince me that it is not.

For clarity, I was not claiming it was needed, nor that it was deserved. Only that it would be useful, and helpful.

There are good reasons for it. Yes, there are ways around it so it is not needed. We all use those ways now, as the feature is not part of the game now, so I would assume no one needs to be told about them. There are some reasons not to have it, some intelligent (this is my opinion), and several that are not (again my opinion). More could be said, but I think I would be wasting my (figurative) breath. So I am calling it quits here.

Missing_Minds
09-18-2013, 07:21 PM
I have said my piece. I think it would be a good idea. I also don't think I will convince any of you of that. I know for sure none of you will ever convince me that it is not.
I don't think many of us think that it is a bad idea.

But when you consider Turbine history, players taking advantage of bugs, etc. It would do more harm than good I fear, esp at this point in the game's life.

Daine
09-18-2013, 08:03 PM
Anyway, something like that would be huge for us. It would allow people with only a couple hours (or less) at a time to fully enjoy the game.

/not signed

I'm not interested in playing a game that has some God like ability to stop time whenever you want. The challenge of playing in a persistent world makes it more immersive for me; I don't control all of time and space and were I to dissappear the world would roll on just fine without me.

For the OP:

I do have one character that has been in persistent party for 3 years now, we play once a week, start at 8pm and finish around 10:30pm. Sometimes work runs over and people are late, sometimes its a restless child at home that needs some attention and sometimes a player's wife "forgets" that we've been running a mid-week gaming session for years and schedules a dinner out with friends. Our 2 1/2 hours a week sometimes gets knocked down to about 90mins with a full party. When we have content that might take some time, we organise it the week before, we make sure that either at the end of the last session, or sometime during the week players:

-Have all their spell components, potions, scrolls, wands, etc
-Have emptied their backpacks of trash loot
-Have double checked availability with spouses
-Log on sometime before 8pm on the night to download any updates
-Are logged out fully buffed on the guild ship
-We use emails during the game day to remind each other that the session is on and what we're doing and how we need to start at 8pm.
-Finally we all make sure we're on at 8pm, fully buffed and ready to go, all knowing where we are going.

Frankly it's amazing how much you can get done with about 5 minutes of preparation.

It's not a military operation, we joke about hopelessly, we're all old friends of over 20 years acquaintance and in the normal week we're managers, engineers and an accountant (the thief in our party) but the difference between getting everyone online 20 minutes after our 'start time' then discussing what we're going to do and being prepared is a massive difference. Of course in the end we just use DDO as a vehicle to spend time together joking about and sharing what's happened in our lifes, but you can get any content in the game done in 2&1/2 hours with a little prep and still enjoy your time with friends.

lyrecono
09-19-2013, 01:11 AM
/not signed

an accountant (the thief in our party)


a case of art imitating life? LOL XD

+1 for the rest of the post btw :)

Meetch1972
09-19-2013, 10:48 AM
There's quite a bit of both going on, some seeming to be one while actually being the other and vice-versa.

Despite being extremely unlikely to be possible any time this year or the next or even the next, I still support the idea of the OP. DDO has been diverging from the system many pen and paper gamers have been using for decades, but wouldn't it be great if we could harness more of the spirit of D&D in this MMO?

How often would this happen in the pen and paper version?

Dungeon Master: "... and the thief gets 150XP extra for that amazing dance which allowed the rest of the party to escape. Ok folks, I'm off to the in-laws. See you next week." Adventure complete - yay!

Far more likely:

DM: "... and the kobold dies, shrieking something about "shoulda stayed in the waterworks". Dang, we're outta time - in-laws waiting and all that. I've got the order of initiative, and we'll see how the rest of the battle goes next week." Save here, resume next time.

There's also the difference between being shown how to run a quest and figuring it out for yourself. There are a significant number of people out there who would really appreciate the "no spoilers" approach, while others seem on a rush to get to the end. Part of TR / completionist life I guess (life 6 on my main here), but I still try to appreciate the new or even just learn something new, before trying to dominate it. What if the DM had said to himself "Darn, only an hour left and there's a lot to do." ... and then proceeds to hand the players a summary of the rest of the quest, the players choose one of the top 5 completion methods, and they finish the xp then and there. Or how about I make you read the walkthrough to your next single player adventure game? It took me somewhere under a full day to play my way through all of Portal when I first got it. Now it's a few hours - still rewarding to finish but the first time will always have been the best completion. And it has a save function which is far more forgiving than what was asked for in the OP. :)

Some people are more than happy just to watch a movie, others prefer to read the book first. That's probably the difference between a high powered team running a quest (even if they don't know it) and a social group who know they're under geared and are there for some atmosphere. But whether it's a book or a movie, I know most people hate it when someone finds out what they're about to watch, or sees the book in their hand, and tell them how it ends. "Oh yeah that's a good one, especially how you find out she's a man." What The ???

Those who want others to learn how the quest works before they can figure it out for themselves IMNSHO probably prefer to have the book or movie ending spelled out to them before they get to experience it for themselves, just so they can get to the next one quicker. If that's false, then they should avoid telling everyone who WANTS to sniff flowers to look up guides or just tell them do it, please! Of course these people shouldn't be joining zerg or "know it" groups if they want the new experience. A save / restore mechanism would allow those who want to appreciate all the detail that was hand crafted into quests to do so, without the need for spoilers in order to guarantee completion before dinner. Some people just don't care about XP/min - they're in it for the adventure, at least until they know the quest forwards, backwards and sideways.

I'd be reluctant to tell the devs to drop everything and get on it, because I've a fair idea that it would be a difficult and lengthy task - even before considering bugs, but if it could be done... awesome! (A proper object oriented code base might just allow for the proper saving / restoring of the states of all objects within a dungeon, but who am I to say this is actually how it is?) Those who know how to do every quest in under an hour - surely you've appreciated them when they were new and fresh, and XP wasn't as important ?

(And yeah Havok.cry - that idea to store save files on the PC was awful - I think it's been sufficiently explained as to why ;))

Chillax and enjoy the game, and please stop trying to make newbies, who just want to run at their own pace, feel like noobs. If they want to learn, teach them how to play - and if they don't, it still doesn't hurt to offer advice. If they want to know a short cut, by all means show them, but please don't alienate them if they want a chance to figure it all out for themselves. You don't HAVE to stand and watch, you know.

I've said more than enough on this. :p Happy hunting all...