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Bumbaragum
09-11-2013, 11:05 PM
Help me if you can I´m feeling down...

Lets go down to business. I need help with my pure Rogue, with Epic Twists, Feats, advices in general and getting him up and running Epic Elites.

I´m feeling squichy, if everyone doing his part I can shine and blaze around the world without a care in the world, if things go sideways I can still shine and blaze around the world but if I close my eyes because of the sleepness or get some 3-5 seconds lag I can go from full health to nothing without being able to scroll heal, get my 50% miss chance up or bluff or something else to escape the death looking me in the eyes.

So main objective, always pugging and partying, Rogue is the top class that outshine itself and everyone with a full party. He´s the Hapiest guy when the 1k HP barbarian sponge soaking mana, mob hating guy enters the group. Have to perform well with good and bad puggers, if that means scroll healing tank monks while using Xbows to deal some dmg (to be out of the fray), so be it.

Pure Rogue "Ontem" Drow Elf third life (Past lifes 2x Barbarian) at Level 23

STR 10 +4 tome
CON 14 +2 lvl ups here + 3 tome
DEX 18 +5 lvl ups here + 4 tome
INT 18 + 3 tome
WIS 8 + 3 tome
CHA 10 + 3 tome

Enhancements are basicaly Assassin Tree up to tier 5 and last core, Mechanic for +3 Umd, wand/scroll usage, +2 dex, and Int to Xbow dmg and Acrobat for faster sneaking

Actual feats not in order: (1) TWF (3) Weapon Finesse (6) Precision (9) ITWF (12) Toughness (15) GTWF (18) Quick Draw (21) Improved Sneak Attack (24) Improved Critical Piercing (27) Nothing planed yet

Planing on: Changing Toughness and Quick Draw for Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot, getting Rapid Reload at 24. Changing IC for Epic Damage Reduction at 27 (or not, advices)

DESTINYS: All destinys at level 5 except for the Arcane sphere (zero on it) Need some serious advices on twists, if I should stay on shadowdancer or something else.

GEAR:

HELM: Purple dragon Helm (Can change for anything, at this point, +10 CON + something lootgen, or GH dragon helm)
GOGGLES: Tharne´s goggles/Epic goggles Time sensing(yellow blind immune, white slot nothing yet)
NECKLACE: Silver Flame talisman
TRINKET: Planar Focus of Prowess +3 Exc DEX
CLOAK: Clever +7 Resistance +7 (Advices on something better and looking somewhere to slot +10 INT +10 Resist gear)
ARMOR: Cormyrian Red Dragonscale Robe
BELT: Greater false life +30 (Thinking of +10 DEX 10% dodge lootgen belt)
GLOVES: PDK Gloves (Best gloves so far, 30% Hamp, +2 Exp CON and some strength to avoid encumbrance)
BOOTS: Treads of falling shadows Elite (not epic, just elite, Something to fit here if using Golden guile)
BRACERS: Convalescent of Parrying (Advices)
RING1: Deadly +8, Accuracy +6 (Deadly +10 in the future)
RING2: Ring of Lies (Improved deception, charisma for umd, charisma skills, bluff bonus. Could change for the Epic Golden Guile: Improved Dec, Bluff, Ghostly -frees up the boots)
WEAPONS: Celestias duo (tier 1), Slavers Hand Xbow, Silver Slinger Xbow (not epic yet)




- Planing on changing feats to use more of the Xbows, end game seems to be needing good ranged dmg.
- I like to have at least 41 UMD (without GH, ship buffs and swaping gear) So in the case I die a couple or more times I can still use a Raise Dead/Heal/Etc scroll
- Advices on Raising my PRR (Using robes because can cap Dodge and for next lifes that are going to be monks or monk splashes)
- Im Tring in the future, One year give or take from now.


In advance thanks for the suggestions and inputs.

Bumbaragum
09-11-2013, 11:07 PM
First - Thanks all for the suggestions, Very useful insight on some aspects (others not so much, like changing race and completely changing the built idea - just remember is about improving a character already there, not making one out of scratch)

Second - Celestias get dex to hit/dmg if you have weapon finesse feat and they bypass almost all DR there is. And they are not piercing attack (Its a nice addition, use it almost all the time, yes I agree sometimes unwanted aggro comes from the AOE effect)

Third - Feats - full TWF line (3) Precision (4) Weapon Finesse (5) Magic Training (6) Improved Critical Piercing (7) Improve Sneak Attack (8) Rapid Reload (9) and Epic DR (10) Epic Destiny Feats will be Perfect TWF and Elusive Target.

Always with Coccon twisted now, It added much to my survivability thanks for it. Definitely worth a feat slot, just need to permantly add some healing power gear (currently potency 72 or so on dagger)

Fourth - Will be farming for shard/scroll/seal of Golden Guile, also looking for Agony daggers. Some of my gear have been already upgraded and will slowly try to add stuff here and there. My Dex is near 50 with +6 gear and +3 insight, will use Yugo dex pots more frequently and will slot +1 except somewhere or put my hands on the Epic globe of Imperial. So can easly hit 60 with Tensers maybe more with better gear.

Fifth - Finally someone posted something beatles related! Later on I will edit first part and try to organize neatly so more people can use the build and adapt to their liking.

Again thanks everyone

Silverleafeon
09-12-2013, 12:39 AM
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Shadows_(Level_23)

Wizza
09-16-2013, 04:32 AM
Why are you going to take Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload? You haven't the feats to shine in Ranged. Forget it.

Celestia is good in bypassing DR but it draws unwanted aggro with its procs. Switch to 2x Agony, you won't regret it.

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
IC: Piercing
IC: Slashing (depends on the weapon you want to use, I have both on my Assassin since I use Agony and EMG)
Toughness
Precision
Improved Sneak Attack
Epic Toughness
Perfect TWF
Epic Resistance (10 PRR) / Great Int / Something else (not sure here)
Elusive Target



I'm using Shadowdancer for Shadow form.

Twists:

Sense Weakness
Unheartly Reaction (from Magister, +3 dodge, +6 reflex)
Brace for Impact

Tscheuss
09-16-2013, 05:02 AM
It looks like you are improving your repeater work. Left side of Shiradi tree is a nice addition for that. ;)

PrimalConcreteSledge
09-16-2013, 05:40 AM
Why are you going to take Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload? You haven't the feats to shine in Ranged. Forget it.

Celestia is good in bypassing DR but it draws unwanted aggro with its procs. Switch to 2x Agony, you won't regret it.

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
IC: Piercing
IC: Slashing (depends on the weapon you want to use, I have both on my Assassin since I use Agony and EMG)
Toughness
Precision
Improved Sneak Attack
Epic Toughness
Perfect TWF
Epic Resistance (10 PRR) / Great Int / Something else (not sure here)
Elusive Target



I'm using Shadowdancer for Shadow form.

Twists:

Sense Weakness
Unheartly Reaction (from Magister, +3 dodge, +6 reflex)
Brace for Impact

Wizza is right about celestia. It's great for boss fights with dr tho. Agony is the best assassin choice atm imo. Don't forget it has keen - no need for imp. crit feat only for that one.

Think about going int based. It has great sinergy with ranged you seam to want. Otherwise, i'd choose a different race.

Rapid realod is the most i'd go with ranged feats on a feat starved rogue. That one's optional too but depends how much you want to go ranged.

You will want to twist cacoon. Scrolls are not that reliable in real combat situations. Your reflex should be good enough to drop unearthy reactions and free that slot.

Wizza
09-16-2013, 06:01 AM
Wizza is right about celestia. It's great for boss fights with dr tho. Agony is the best assassin choice atm imo. Don't forget it has keen - no need for imp. crit feat only for that one.

Think about going int based. It has great sinergy with ranged you seam to want. Otherwise, i'd choose a different race.

Rapid realod is the most i'd go with ranged feats on a feat starved rogue. That one's optional too but depends how much you want to go ranged.

You will want to twist cacoon. Scrolls are not that reliable in real combat situations. Your reflex should be good enough to drop unearthy reactions and free that slot.

IC:Piercing is for every other dagger. With Celestia not included in the Assassin's tree weapons for dex-to-dmg/hit, you will likely want 2x daggers to bypass DR instead of Celestias.

Reflexes will not be high enough in EEs. I have it and still fail many Ref saves on my build. Cocoon is great and all but scrolls have always been more than enough in combat so saying they are not "reliable" is just wrong. If you twist Cocoon, you will have likely a 20 cast with a 250 SP slot. 20 cast is not that much for current endgame.

PrimalConcreteSledge
09-16-2013, 06:32 AM
IC:Piercing is for every other dagger. With Celestia not included in the Assassin's tree weapons for dex-to-dmg/hit, you will likely want 2x daggers to bypass DR instead of Celestias.

Yeah you are probably right on dex build... Lootgen daggers suck tho even with the new enhancements.


Reflexes will not be high enough in EEs. I have it and still fail many Ref saves on my build. Cocoon is great and all but scrolls have always been more than enough in combat so saying they are not "reliable" is just wrong. If you twist Cocoon, you will have likely a 20 cast with a 250 SP slot. 20 cast is not that much for current endgame.

My still lvl 25 int based rogue with insightfull reflexes had no problem hitting unbuffed 50 with only brace for inpact. Can't say i really went all in either. That's enought even for classes without an imp. evasion feat.

I have 300 sp on my rogue, play mostly ee engame and don't even use scrolls any more rly. Never run out of sp and i skip all the shrines to keep the shadowdancer charges... So I don't know how you came to that conclusion...

Wizza
09-16-2013, 07:04 AM
Yeah you are probably right on dex build... Lootgen daggers suck tho even with the new enhancements.


My still lvl 25 int based rogue with insightfull reflexes had no problem hitting unbuffed 50 with only brace for inpact. Can't say i really went all in either. That's enought even for classes without an imp. evasion feat.

I have 300 sp on my rogue, play mostly ee engame and don't even use scrolls any more rly. Never run out of sp and i skip all the shrines to keep the shadowdancer charges... So I don't know how you came to that conclusion...

50 is kinda low for newest content EE. What game difficulty and content are you talking about? I'm talking about the newest EEs.

PrimalConcreteSledge
09-16-2013, 07:25 AM
50 is kinda low for newest content EE. What game difficulty and content are you talking about? I'm talking about the newest EEs.

Didn't play the new content. 50 was enough for ee GH. As i said that's unbuffed... I could also get ship buffs, GH... And since i'm lvl 25, i'd get another 3 leveling to 28. So around 60 buffed on cap easy...

But quite frankly, with imp. evasion, even if my saves were 10 points lower i'd still rather take a reliable self heal.

EDIT: Ah yeah i also forgot new resistance items go to +10... So another +4 there. We could then go to absurds like +3 luck, exceptional reflex, eldrich resistance ritual etc. Rly an overkill easy even without unarthy reactions... But on an imp. evasion toon, what's the point?

Dmnqwk
09-16-2013, 07:32 AM
When it comes to the assassin it has very bad inherent survival. You get that from going outside the box.

Stats: You ideally want to max your assassinate dc with as much int as you can get. Otherwise, you might as well be a thief-acrobat since it has better dps and trips. 50 int should be fairly easy to achieve, which also benefits when you're forced to pick up a repeater to finish someone off. Dex 18 and a +3 tome for a Drow would let you get improved sneak just fine (even 16 and a 5 tome if you've got it).

Feats: TWF line and Precision take up 4 of your 7 non-epic feats. Magical Training (to let you twist in cocoon) makes 5, leaving you some choices (improved crit, weapon finesse etc).
In Epic you'll usually look at improved sneak, then it's whatever you fancy. Rapid Reload at 24 isn't such a terrible idea, but don't bother with point blank and rapid shot because 2 feats to fire quicker isn't worth it (remember you can vorpal at range with your level 18 core ability with a repeater).

Gear: Ensure you have blurry and ghostly on. Someone linked the ring of shadows, which achieves both. There's also ghostly on the boots from the End of the Road chain (first quest) and blurry can either be a greensteel item, or a phiarlan mirror cloak (which also has light resistance, great in citw). Don't forget to slot your PRR gem somewhere in blue.
With weapon choice, carrying 2 celestias is great for AOE (something rogues don't have in spades). A pair of sacrificial daggers (preferably 1 dex, 1 con) will help neg level things for casters and such, and it's also sometimes the quickest way to kill a mob.
Outside of those, 1 Agony paired with a DEVOTION dagger (EMG can slot it, High Priestess dagger has devotion already plus con/wis drain). The 120-150 spellpower dagger in your offhand will boost cocoon up to around 50 a tick
Finally, carry a staff. I carry an epic nat gann stick (socketed with good) because too many places hate piercing damage.

Twists: If you're shadowdancer, look at Brace for Impact and Rejuve Cocoon. If you're not, it's usually stealthy for the assassinate bump in the final slot. With Magical Training, when you run out of spell points all it means is Cocoon can be used every 18 seconds instead of 12 (4sp back per 6 with echoes of power). So you'll always have healing.

Enhancements: +3 umd is nice, but make sure you get Wrack Construct (even if you have to trade the points from umd for it). Being able to sneak att Maruts and things is invaluable at times.

PrimalConcreteSledge
09-16-2013, 07:45 AM
Outside of those, 1 Agony paired with a DEVOTION dagger (EMG can slot it, High Priestess dagger has devotion already plus con/wis drain).

Don't forget Agony can get a red slot too. However this will cost you an arm and a leg :D

Wizza
09-16-2013, 07:52 AM
Didn't play the new content. 50 was enough for ee GH. As i said that's unbuffed... I could also get ship buffs, GH... And since i'm lvl 25, i'd get another 3 leveling to 28. So around 60 buffed on cap easy...

But quite frankly, with imp. evasion, even if my saves were 10 points lower i'd still rather take a reliable self heal.

EDIT: Ah yeah i also forgot new resistance items go to +10... So another +4 there. We could then go to absurds like +3 luck, exceptional reflex, eldrich resistance ritual etc. Rly an overkill easy even without unarthy reactions... But on an imp. evasion toon, what's the point?

New chains are full with spells and damage with a really high DC. What goes Up ice ellies spam A LOT otilukes that deals a ton of damage. Play around in the new chains and then decide :)

Arkantios
09-16-2013, 07:54 AM
Pstt, drop the range :P.

Pure Human Rogue

1. Power Attack
1. Cleave
3. Toughness
6. Great Cleave
9. TWF
10. Imp Evasion
12. Imp Crit. Slashing/pierce
13. Opportunist
15. ITWF
16. Slippery Mind/Skill Mastery
18. GTWF
19. Skill Mastery
21. Overwhelming Crit
24. Epic Toughness
26. Perfect TWF
27. Watchful Eye/Epic DR

Then go in LD for a blitzing rogue.

PrimalConcreteSledge
09-16-2013, 12:24 PM
New chains are full with spells and damage with a really high DC. What goes Up ice ellies spam A LOT otilukes that deals a ton of damage. Play around in the new chains and then decide :)

Wait... You don't have an exact DC number!? But are insisting this person should drop caccoon for another 6 reflex? On an improved evasion toon with the best class reflex in the game, using a primary stat tied to reflex?

Nice.

Wizza
09-16-2013, 12:37 PM
Wait... You don't have an exact DC number!? But are insisting this person should drop caccoon for another 6 reflex? On an improved evasion toon with the best class reflex in the game, using a primary stat tied to reflex?

Nice.

I know 65 isn't enough.

thomhas_of_mabar
09-18-2013, 09:02 PM
Pstt, drop the range :P.

Pure Human Rogue

1. Power Attack
1. Cleave
3. Toughness
6. Great Cleave
9. TWF
10. Imp Evasion
12. Imp Crit. Slashing/pierce
13. Opportunist
15. ITWF
16. Slippery Mind/Skill Mastery
18. GTWF
19. Skill Mastery
21. Overwhelming Crit
24. Epic Toughness
26. Perfect TWF
27. Watchful Eye/Epic DR

Then go in LD for a blitzing rogue.


I want to use the +20 heart of wood to fix up some of my (less than useful) feats and stats on my str rogue.
I was thinking of going down the OC path as well.

My question: Is the OC chain worth it on a rogue? Is the to-hit penalty a burden?

Some of my guildies favor dropping pure rogue and splashing in some fighter or monk levels.
What about the new content (I haven't tried it). Is this a good path for Shadowfell content?

Opinions?

Failedlegend
09-18-2013, 11:01 PM
http://youtu.be/5Q20QuQaMYI

Arkantios
09-19-2013, 08:27 AM
I want to use the +20 heart of wood to fix up some of my (less than useful) feats and stats on my str rogue.
I was thinking of going down the OC path as well.

My question: Is the OC chain worth it on a rogue? Is the to-hit penalty a burden?

Some of my guildies favor dropping pure rogue and splashing in some fighter or monk levels.
What about the new content (I haven't tried it). Is this a good path for Shadowfell content?

Opinions?

What to-hit penalty? If you did it right, you shouldn't have one.

My rogue is pure, yes spare feats are a bit rare..but I absolutely love him.
I personally wouldnt splash anything with rogue if you are going assassin for the facts that one, you lose at least 2 assassinate dc from 1 lvl splash, and 2 I use about 44-46 points in assassin, 20-26 points in mech for the UMD/Scroll Mastery/2 int, enough in acro for the faster sneaking, and then the rest in human for the 20% hamp. Yeah, I suppose you could splash monk and get the faster sneaking from ninja spy, but meh.

CThruTheEgo
09-19-2013, 08:34 AM
First, nice thread title. ;)

Since you put level ups into dex and con instead of int and you don't mention using EMG, I'm assuming you're not building for assassinate. If that's the case, then you could lower int to 16, str to 8 and funnel those points into con since you're feeling squishy. With the two level ups into con and your +3 tome you can take epic toughness for even moar hp. Regarding toughness, if you're already feeling squishy, dropping toughness is a bad idea imo. I'd value toughness over any of the ranged feats on a squishy, mostly melee toon any day.

This thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425073-Rogue-HP-PRR-Dogde-at-28) pretty much covers the PRR options for a pure rogue.

The build in my sig has a full breakdown of just about everything relevant. It is built for assassinate DC without sacrificing dps or survivability so it may not fit your goals specifically, but you might find some ways to boost your hp, reflex, etc. if you're interested.

CThruTheEgo
09-19-2013, 09:22 AM
Otherwise, you might as well be a thief-acrobat since it has better dps and trips.

How do you figure that an acrobat has better dps than an assassin? TWF gets 80% more sneak attack over THF due to offhand procs. Plus, assassin gets a capstone that provides an additional 4d6 sneak attack. Not to mention all of the sneak attack training enhancements available in the assassin tree, which may or may not fit on an acrobat, especially if splashed which is generally more optimal for a staff build.


Pstt, drop the range :P.

Pure Human Rogue

1. Power Attack
1. Cleave
3. Toughness
6. Great Cleave
9. TWF
10. Imp Evasion
12. Imp Crit. Slashing/pierce
13. Opportunist
15. ITWF
16. Slippery Mind/Skill Mastery
18. GTWF
19. Skill Mastery
21. Overwhelming Crit
24. Epic Toughness
26. Perfect TWF
27. Watchful Eye/Epic DR

Then go in LD for a blitzing rogue.

This is basically how I would build an assassin if I wasn't going for assassinate DC.


I want to use the +20 heart of wood to fix up some of my (less than useful) feats and stats on my str rogue.
I was thinking of going down the OC path as well.

My question: Is the OC chain worth it on a rogue? Is the to-hit penalty a burden?

Some of my guildies favor dropping pure rogue and splashing in some fighter or monk levels.
What about the new content (I haven't tried it). Is this a good path for Shadowfell content?

Opinions?

If you're building for assassinate, I wouldn't bother with the overwhelming crit line since you want max int for your assassinate DC, dex 21 for imp sneak attack, and as much con as you can get, preferably 21 to pick up epic toughness. Along with str 23 for overwhelming crit, that's a lot of heavy stat requirements. But if you don't care about assassinate, I think overwhelming crit is the way to go.

To-hit shouldn't be a problem. You could even find a way to fit in precision for the 25% fort bypass, which benefits not only your sneak attack damage but also your crits.

I would never splash on an assassin personally. The 4d6 capstone is pretty enticing. I don't know what would be worth giving that up for.

Arkantios
09-19-2013, 11:00 AM
This is basically how I would build an assassin if I wasn't going for assassinate DC.

If you're building for assassinate, I wouldn't bother with the overwhelming crit line since you want max int for your assassinate DC, dex 21 for imp sneak attack, and as much con as you can get, preferably 21 to pick up epic toughness. Along with str 23 for overwhelming crit, that's a lot of heavy stat requirements. But if you don't care about assassinate, I think overwhelming crit is the way to go.


Actually, even though I'm not sure int based, with just ship buffs, and not taking the completionist feat (Because I dont have access to it yet) Ill be sitting at a 60 dc, which, is pretty decent, however this is factoring in the +5 from being in sneak via 10 seconds.

CThruTheEgo
09-19-2013, 11:38 AM
Actually, even though I'm not sure int based, with just ship buffs, and not taking the completionist feat (Because I dont have access to it yet) Ill be sitting at a 60 dc, which, is pretty decent, however this is factoring in the +5 from being in sneak via 10 seconds.

Admittedly, I have yet to get my assassin to epics and play the new content so I can only go on the reports of others and my own experience with DC casting, but 70 seems to be the new magic number for current EEs. 60 should be plenty in EH content and below, but I don't think it'd be worth having in EE.

Arkantios
09-19-2013, 11:43 AM
Admittedly, I have yet to get my assassin to epics and play the new content so I can only go on the reports of others and my own experience with DC casting, but 70 seems to be the new magic number for current EEs. 60 should be plenty in EH content and below, but I don't think it'd be worth having in EE.

Eh, It's always worth having. Yes a 60 wont insta-kill everything that you come in contact with, but i'ts not a insta fail either. Still worth trying to assassinate whenever it's off timer and you arent in the middle of dps'ing something down. Works great for me so far.