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Zachski
09-11-2013, 10:23 PM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/249865-The-Classic-Rocker-20-Bard-Warchanter

Anyone remember this?

Being that I'm one of those people who hates splashing with a passion, and that it seems like bard actually has some upgraded offensive capabilities against monsters that don't resist ice (which actually makes Warchanter feel a lot more like a Skald, which is fantastic) this build should actually be better than it was before, in some ways.

So with this in mind, some things that even an inept builder like myself can see right off the bat:

Toughness and Weapon Focus: Slashing are no longer necessary. That frees up two feat slots. I'm not sure what to replace them with yet. Thinking is hard when you've got a killer headache. Taking Power Attack and Cleave earlier in the build should help at low levels though.

My weapon choice will be Falchions due to Warchanters benefiting more from critting more often as oppose to having bigger crits.

Other than that, I'm not sure what direction to take the U19 version of this build. Obviously I will be taking some enhancements from Spellsinger, I'm just not sure which enhancements. And to emphasize, I do not want to splash Cleric for Divine Might, or Fighter for Haste Boost, or any class for anything. I want to play a bard.

Back in my day, when you picked a class, you stuck with that class from beginning to end. You didn't have these fancy munchkin splashes or hybrid builds. If you wanted a bard's songs, you had to deal with everything else that came with that class. If you wanted a cleric's healing, well, you had to deal with not being able to use swords. Nowadays, kids are running around with their fancy Bard/Paladin/Druid classes all willy nilly without a single regard to things, and nobody really even cares about the classes themselves. All they care about are numbers on a sheet.

...The above was tongue-in-cheek, if that wasn't obvious.

voodoogroves
09-11-2013, 10:33 PM
It kinda depends on how much you want to spend on your racial trees, etc. Bards still gain plenty from attack speed, so TWF is still favored. And, I think, you want Improved Crit regardless.

PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Crit, Quicken, Empower Healing + one more feat ... I'd probably go with Extend

PA, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Improved Crit, Quicken, Empower Healing

The only issue I have is that the Warchanter capstone is somewhat lacking. I honestly think you'd do better to grab Spellsinger's if you could.

Zachski
09-11-2013, 11:03 PM
Hm... gaining Heal as a bard spell? Sounds like a good enough reason to get the Spellsinger capstone.

Also I'm seeing some reasons to have more charisma than normal, actually. Like the skill "Frozen Fury" which, while the +1.5[W] isn't half bad, the 14 + CHA Mod DC for the enemy to avoid becoming frozen seems like it could be easily bypassed on a Classic Rocker.

Since I'm not getting Divine Might, however, it's of more benefit for me to simply accept that this skill won't be useful to me than it would be to splash Cleric in.

If only Warchanters had their own equivalent to Divine Might. Like, Skaldic Rage could grant a bonus to strength based on Charisma or something during its duration, or an upgrade to Skaldic Rage does that.

If I'm going to be using Skaldic Rage, I might want High Spirits 3... and I definitely want Armorer, since at least I'll have more PRR in Medium Armor.

At least one rank of Boast seems nice. Three ranks if I want to get Ironskin Chant.

Words of Encouragement seems like it could be useful at low levels. At higher levels, maybe not so much. Although the positive spellpower might be useful.

From the Spellsinger tree...

Musical Studies is rendered redundant by some of the Warchanter enhancements, so Magical Studies might not hurt.

Lingering Songs has an outright synergy with Skaldic Rage, since Skaldic Rage is technically a song that should get boosted by Lingering Songs.

Does Flicker or Inspired Flicker even accomplish anything? I'm not too well versed in casting invisibility right in front of enemies.

I may as well grab Enthrallment if I can.

Spell Song Trance maybe?

Hell, Sustaining Song stands to benefit the most from a Warchanter playstyle.

I'm sad to hear that Song of Capering got nerfed by having the effect only trigger when you finish playing. You're supposed to dance when you start to hear the music, not after the song ends :P

I want to get Victory song from the Warchanter core enhancements, at least, since it's basically a free "Divine Power" spell on the bard every time he sings Inspire Courage. Not that I won't use scrolls, but still, it's full BAB.

As far as racial trees go, that depends on which race I choose. I'm thinking Human as a default.

Micron
09-12-2013, 03:43 AM
Well it seems that the Classic Rocker is supposed to make the party happy so I'd go with the whole DC bonus/mana discount/mana regen line in Spellsinger, arcanes and healers will love you. Musical studies definitely, the more songs the better, many of the cool bardy abilities (especially Fatesinger ones) are songs. Don't know if the Classic Rocker uses Heal scrolls, if so, then probably wand/scroll mastery, although that's costly so skip it if you don't scroll heal. You probably have enough mana to actually heal people almost exclusively with the Heal spell on this build (apart from mass cures).

Although I notice that you want Armourer, which means you'll have tier 5 Warchanter enhancements, which in turn means you'd have to give up Spell Song Vigour in Spellsinger. And if you have tier 5 WC enhancements and are gonna use Skaldic Rage, then you definitely want Howl of the North and Weapon Training. EDIT: That is, if you have the Healing version of the Rocker. I just noticed it also has a DPS path that features Overwhelming Crit, which I'm told doesn't stack with Howl of the North.

Now that I'm thinking about it, if you want Spellsinger capstone (40 AP requirement) AND tier 5 Warchanter enhancements (30 AP requirement), you'll have very little left for racial tree and you'll probably have to take some less than exciting things in Spellsinger to qualify for the capstone. Unless I'm missing something.

Zachski
09-12-2013, 04:32 AM
I noticed that...

In regards to musical studies, I've heard it doesn't stack with the Warchanter enhancements that grant songs. I don't know if it's the same with Greater Musical Studies.

Micron
09-12-2013, 05:35 AM
In regards to musical studies, I've heard it doesn't stack with the Warchanter enhancements that grant songs.
It's true, yes. If you took Poetic Edda in WC, you want Magical Studies instead.

unbongwah
09-12-2013, 10:41 AM
Magical Studies on a pure bard is better because the third tier provides Magical Training / Echoes of Power; between that and Spellsong Vigor, you should never run out of SPs.

As for feats: at a minimum you want Power Atk, Cleave, GC, IC:Slash, Inspire Excellence, Overwhelming Crit. That leaves 3 or 4 heroic feats (depending if human) and 1 epic feat. Some options: THF chain for extra melee DPS; Toughness for more HPs (+eToughness on a dwarf, maybe); metamagics like Extend, Quicken, and/or Emp Heal (esp. if going for SS capstone); racial Dragonmark for fun (I have Finding on my human bard for extra phat lewt).

AzB
09-12-2013, 10:59 PM
Well it seems that the Classic Rocker is supposed to make the party happy so I'd go with the whole DC bonus/mana discount/mana regen line in Spellsinger, arcanes and healers will love you.

If you run with power gamers, the mana discount/regen is basically pointless. Even in PUGs lately, I've been seeing more and more wizzes with 3000sp (and 900hp!) at 20th level. These guys rarely run low on mana. They blast away like a sorc, and still have a hard time getting much below 1500sp before the shrine. The tiny amount of sp regen/discount really doesn't make much of a dent in their sp pool.

They don't really care about the songs, they laugh when I let them know I'm playing, and then proceed to go kill everything while I'm playing.

For more casual groups, it is still appreciated, but even then rarely really needed.

It would be really nice to eliminate the cool downs on the songs. It's ridiculous that a wiz or sorc can cast 43 buffs on the entire party in the time it takes me to sing 4 songs. I understand the songs need time to be played, that part makes sense, but why the long cooldowns? It's not like the songs are OP and ruining the game, and in the current game where everything must be done at high speed, it means I'm playing songs on the run or not playing them at all because everyone got their buffs and took off.

Micron
09-13-2013, 04:36 AM
If you run with power gamers, the mana discount/regen is basically pointless. Even in PUGs lately, I've been seeing more and more wizzes with 3000sp (and 900hp!) at 20th level. These guys rarely run low on mana. They blast away like a sorc, and still have a hard time getting much below 1500sp before the shrine. The tiny amount of sp regen/discount really doesn't make much of a dent in their sp pool.

They don't really care about the songs, they laugh when I let them know I'm playing, and then proceed to go kill everything while I'm playing.
I know what you mean but the OP doesn't strike me as someone who only plays with power gamers. If he only played with self-sufficient power gamers who laugh at bards, why would he want to play a Classic Rocker in the first place? For heals? Power gamers don't need healing either.

I know I often run out of mana in EH FoT pugs on my shiradi wiz with a 2900 sp pool almost exclusively using SLAs and cheap spells for shiradi procs. If I'm on trash duty, helping on the giant and dragon pairs, then take the prism down, by the time TO is down to 50%, I'm sometimes out of mana and have to chug 1-3 pots before it's over. I know for sure that if there's a bard who gives me discount and some mana regen to save me a pot or two, I'll appreciate it.

Perhaps now, if all casters splash fvs and take Scourge, the times of running out of mana might be over. But I doubt it somehow. Not to mention the fact that OP wants the capstone so he needs to spend 40 AP in the tree and I don't really see many other useful abilities he would be better off spending points on than the DC/mana line to meet the requirement.