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HastyPudding
09-10-2013, 02:47 PM
After playing mine a bit, I've noticed several things:

1. If you use quarterstaves, you lose out on stunning fist. If you are an unarmed Henshin monk, you lose out on many bonuses Henshin provides for quarterstaves such as increased damage, increased fire/force spellpower, and several Henshin abilities.

2. You'll never have the DC's for your finishers and ki abilities to be competitive in end-game epics. The only way this is even remotely possible is if you take a minimum strength build and totally pump wisdom; I mean like a cleric pump's wisdom, all chips in the pot, no-holds-barred pure wisdom monk.

3. There are no items (other than +wisdom) that can help your monk DC's. The +3 you get from the Henshin tree is just not enough to even warrant getting. There are also no items that are truly monk-friendly that add fire or force spellpower.

So what does this leave you as? I don't see it being anything but a quarterstaff-using monk with a few gimmicky (and that's putting it lightly) fire/force abilities or an excuse to multiclass a rogue acrobat. The tree needs serious work. In many ways, it feels like the dump tree for monks, the same as the rogue mechanic or a protection cleric trees: useful abilities to all rogues/clerics, but nobody serious about rogues/clerics is going to be a full 20 rogue mechanic/protection cleric as the tree lacks anything resembling power on the level of assassin/acrobat or radiant/disciple. A few (interesting) suggestions:

1. Turn Henshin into a true spellcasting monk (like the kind you see in movies and books: a monk breathing fire, levitating off the ground, using kinetic energy, etc). Keep their quarterstaff damage line, by all means, they're still a melee class and need to build ki. Henshin shouldn't be a prestige about a dps class with a few special ki abilities; it should be a monk based on ki abilities with back-up dps with quarterstaves.

2. Increase the Henshin's ability to gain and retain ki, but keep these methods in higher tiers of the tree so that Shintao or Ninjas can't abuse them without heavily speccing into it. 5 uses of meditation is great, but they should regenerate on tier 3 of 'Embrace the Void'; not quickly, but maybe 1 every 3 minutes. The most important and powerful Henshin abilities require a use of meditation -- as they should in fact -- but they severely reduce your mobility, limiting their situational use even further than they already are. Sure, Shintao and Ninjas can get this easily, as well, but what use do they have for it other than gaining ki while waiting for things? Beyond level 12 or so, only Henshin can truly make use of meditation.

3. Give Henshin the ability to use metamagic feats on ki strikes and finishers (and increase ki cost comparatively), or GIVE Henshin ability toggles that work the same way. This should obviously be a tier 5 Henshin ability, preventing Ninjas and Shintao from abusing its uses. This would give some leeway and planning into the build, since tier 5 requires level 12 and prohibits other tier 5 abilities in other trees from being taken. Thus, this would prevent Henshin from being a low level powerhouse (like fire savant sorcerers are right now), but give them better ki usage at the level when ki-based damage abilities begin to wane and decrease in power, improving their performance in this area beyond that of other monks, as they should be.

4. Change the near pointless elemental debuff ki strikes that Henshin has. In the grand scheme of things, these are next to useless and would be better suited to more useful ki-based abilities. It is unfortunate that, in order to get the void vorpal attack, you need to get all 4 of these abilities.

Questions? Thoughts?

Rathic
09-10-2013, 05:14 PM
YES!

here is my feedback

the line leading up to void strike should be a progressive improvement of the standard monk fire attack that adds force fire damage + vulnerability (why do you need the frost or acid or electric vuln strikes?)

I am currently playing a henshin with pastlife druid (not the free one) so I can summon firesword scimitars... instead of the staff line I think it would be cool if Henshin could summon(a la holy sword, or maybe you choose a weapon and stick with it) a wisdom damage mod force,fire,force/fire weapon of choice and improve them in addition to the level progression with increased die, on hit effects(based on stance?), etc... with a +1 crit multiplier at tier 5.

still would not be a stunning monk but you could go all wisdom and still have decent DPS (except against fire/force resistant/immune stuff)

still I do like my current firesword henshin, it's one of the coolest flavor toons I have made so far

HastyPudding
09-10-2013, 08:04 PM
YES!

here is my feedback

the line leading up to void strike should be a progressive improvement of the standard monk fire attack that adds force fire damage + vulnerability (why do you need the frost or acid or electric vuln strikes?)

I am currently playing a henshin with pastlife druid (not the free one) so I can summon firesword scimitars... instead of the staff line I think it would be cool if Henshin could summon(a la holy sword, or maybe you choose a weapon and stick with it) a wisdom damage mod force,fire,force/fire weapon of choice and improve them in addition to the level progression with increased die, on hit effects(based on stance?), etc... with a +1 crit multiplier at tier 5.

still would not be a stunning monk but you could go all wisdom and still have decent DPS (except against fire/force resistant/immune stuff)

still I do like my current firesword henshin, it's one of the coolest flavor toons I have made so far

I do like the idea of a wisdom-to-attack/damage mod for Henshin. That would encourage wisdom builds, which, let's face it, are pretty much essential if you ever expect to have even slightly respectable DC's for your ki abilities. The core abilities needs more fire/force spellpower, as well; 50 is just not enough, and let's face it, the core abilities for Henshin are weak.

Yes, the elemental debuffs in the void line are useless; even the fire one has severely limited use.

HatsuharuZ
09-10-2013, 08:14 PM
How about changing the elemental vulnerability attacks into toggles that change the fire damage portion of the Henshin abilities and Breath of the Fire Dragon fininsher into different elements? One of the problems with Henshin is that most of the damage is fire, and that fire isn't always the best element to use.

Also, make it so that the tree provides universal spellpower.

redspecter23
09-10-2013, 08:27 PM
2. You'll never have the DC's for your finishers and ki abilities to be competitive in end-game epics. The only way this is even remotely possible is if you take a minimum strength build and totally pump wisdom; I mean like a cleric pump's wisdom, all chips in the pot, no-holds-barred pure wisdom monk.



While you do have some valid points, I just don't get the logic here. If you want to use DC based abilities at endgame, you have to work extremely hard for it (for EE at least). Whether you are a wizard, sorc, arty, bard or even a monk. Yes there is some room to add a few more DC boosters in the trees, but suggesting that a str based monk should be totally capable of stunning and landing finishers as well as a wisdom based monk is about as silly as asking for a str based melee sorc to be able to land finger of death reliably in epic elite content. The current EE endgame does not leave any room for DC abilities to be viable without extreme devotion to the main stat required for the ability. Monks don't get a pass. You want to be the best with your abilities? Max wisdom. Also suggesting that a max wisdom monk will have a "minimum strength" is also silly. Str would quite possibly be your secondary stat or tertiary behind con possibly. There are various ways to build it. Max str is not always optimal.

Soulfurnace
09-10-2013, 08:28 PM
I do like the idea of a wisdom-to-attack/damage mod for Henshin. That would encourage wisdom builds, which, let's face it, are pretty much essential if you ever expect to have even slightly respectable DC's for your ki abilities. The core abilities needs more fire/force spellpower, as well; 50 is just not enough, and let's face it, the core abilities for Henshin are weak.

Yes, the elemental debuffs in the void line are useless; even the fire one has severely limited use.
Let's face it, wisdom monks are essential. No other sort of monk is even as remotely competitive. Str monks, BAH!

Charononus
09-10-2013, 08:31 PM
Let's face it, wisdom monks are essential. No other sort of monk is even as remotely competitive. Str monks, BAH!

Does anyone even build str or dex build monks anymore? I haven't seen one in a very very long time.

HastyPudding
09-10-2013, 08:42 PM
Let's face it, wisdom monks are essential. No other sort of monk is even as remotely competitive. Str monks, BAH!

Does anyone even build str or dex build monks anymore? I haven't seen one in a very very long time.

I built my Shintao as a strength-based monk for outright damage with a decent stunning fist DC (mid 50's). He does more raw damage, even though his stunning fist lacks, and when stunning fist does connect, the extra damage I get out of it is quite nice. I had recently contemplated LRing him into a high wisdom build and simply getting enough base strength for power attack and such, essentially turning him into a stunbot, but the lack of damage concerns me as being not enough to make a dent in mobs. What's the point in even attacking mobs with below 30 strength or so, wouldn't you be dealing cleric healbot type damage?

So, you're telling me that monks nowadays pump every stat point into wisdom and become stunbots/living crowd control and nothing else? I was not aware of this...




While you do have some valid points, I just don't get the logic here. If you want to use DC based abilities at endgame, you have to work extremely hard for it (for EE at least). Whether you are a wizard, sorc, arty, bard or even a monk. Yes there is some room to add a few more DC boosters in the trees, but suggesting that a str based monk should be totally capable of stunning and landing finishers as well as a wisdom based monk is about as silly as asking for a str based melee sorc to be able to land finger of death reliably in epic elite content. The current EE endgame does not leave any room for DC abilities to be viable without extreme devotion to the main stat required for the ability. Monks don't get a pass. You want to be the best with your abilities? Max wisdom. Also suggesting that a max wisdom monk will have a "minimum strength" is also silly. Str would quite possibly be your secondary stat or tertiary behind con possibly. There are various ways to build it. Max str is not always optimal.

When did I suggest anything concerning str-based monks having the DC's of a pure wisdom monk? You obviously need high wisdom to have even close to reliable DC's as a monk, and strength is one of the stats that is going to have to 'take a backseat' to wisdom. By maxing wisdom (like the cleric example) you would have to start with a base 18 wisdom, at least, and every level up point going into wisdom and taking all wisdom enhancements you can get (human would be good with this), not to mention tomes, items, and everything else with wisdom you can find. Even then it's not going to be reliable, because monks do not have access to such feats as 'evocation focus' or make use of spell focus items to increase the DC's of finisher/ki strike moves.

Doing this 'max wisdom' build right now is, quite frankly, pointless, as Henshin simply does not have the capability to have high performance in the ki/finisher arena; they're barely a cut above Shintao and Ninjas. Thus, I say Henshin needs to be 'redone' to suit the needs of its abilities. The only way pure wisdom works is if you're going Shintao or an unarmed Ninja.

Charononus
09-10-2013, 09:52 PM
I built my Shintao as a strength-based monk for outright damage with a decent stunning fist DC (mid 50's). He does more raw damage, even though his stunning fist lacks, and when stunning fist does connect, the extra damage I get out of it is quite nice. I had recently contemplated LRing him into a high wisdom build and simply getting enough base strength for power attack and such, essentially turning him into a stunbot, but the lack of damage concerns me as being not enough to make a dent in mobs. What's the point in even attacking mobs with below 30 strength or so, wouldn't you be dealing cleric healbot type damage?

So, you're telling me that monks nowadays pump every stat point into wisdom and become stunbots/living crowd control and nothing else? I was not aware of this...





When did I suggest anything concerning str-based monks having the DC's of a pure wisdom monk? You obviously need high wisdom to have even close to reliable DC's as a monk, and strength is one of the stats that is going to have to 'take a backseat' to wisdom. By maxing wisdom (like the cleric example) you would have to start with a base 18 wisdom, at least, and every level up point going into wisdom and taking all wisdom enhancements you can get (human would be good with this), not to mention tomes, items, and everything else with wisdom you can find. Even then it's not going to be reliable, because monks do not have access to such feats as 'evocation focus' or make use of spell focus items to increase the DC's of finisher/ki strike moves.

Doing this 'max wisdom' build right now is, quite frankly, pointless, as Henshin simply does not have the capability to have high performance in the ki/finisher arena; they're barely a cut above Shintao and Ninjas. Thus, I say Henshin needs to be 'redone' to suit the needs of its abilities. The only way pure wisdom works is if you're going Shintao or an unarmed Ninja.
16/12/14/8/18/8 36 pt build

all level ups to wis

18 base
5 tome
7
3 monk enhancments
1 human enhancement
2 capstone (henshin or shintao)
2 ship
2 yugo
11 item
3 insightful
1 exceptional
4 stance
59 wisdom sustainable might be able to get 60 with 4 monk enhancements

16 base
5 tome
1 human
2 ship
2 yugo
11 item
3 insightful
1 exceptional
-2 stance
5 primal scream

42 strength sustainable

With monks high attack speed this is still very effective.

Archangel_666
09-10-2013, 10:10 PM
The thing that baffles me about Heshin is that back in the day when I was running ToD (When the cap was 20) the impression I got of Henshin from the descriptions on the items was that it was an Elemental Monk. I had images of using elemental spell like abilities fueled by Ki instead of Spell Points. I even debated putting different Elements on two rings and getting the other two elements on wraps to be doing all elements at once per hit.

Then they brought out Henshin and it's all Fire and Force Damage.

Where's the Cold?

Where's the Electric?

Where's the Acid?

Xorlandu
09-10-2013, 10:14 PM
I built my Shintao as a strength-based monk for outright damage with a decent stunning fist DC (mid 50's). He does more raw damage, even though his stunning fist lacks, and when stunning fist does connect, the extra damage I get out of it is quite nice. I had recently contemplated LRing him into a high wisdom build and simply getting enough base strength for power attack and such, essentially turning him into a stunbot, but the lack of damage concerns me as being not enough to make a dent in mobs. What's the point in even attacking mobs with below 30 strength or so, wouldn't you be dealing cleric healbot type damage?

So, you're telling me that monks nowadays pump every stat point into wisdom and become stunbots/living crowd control and nothing else? I was not aware of this...

With epic destinies adding a lot of damage going a strength build just doesn't add as much as it used to. Maybe I just build my monks weird but no matter what type I'm doing (str, dex or wis I have done all 3) my strength always starts 14-16 depending on how many tr's the character has. So even with a str based race and lvl ups into strength the difference in their strength wasn't very large. At lvl cap these days that is a difference of 8 strength (7 lvl ups + 1 more from racial cause humans/helfs can get +1 str). You could get a little more if you are horc and started your str higher than a 16 but that's sacrificing a lot of build points to get there. All my monks had the same +strength from gear and all strength buffs were available as well. +4 hit/damage vs 3-4 ac, 3-4 dc's on monk related abilities which is almost all of them and 3-4 will saves.
You can add the +4 str from fire stance as well if you wanted but the double strike from wind stance or the crit multiplier, ac and prr from earth are better in my mind so even if I made a strength based monk I wouldn't be in fire stance.

With a wisdom based monk these days I'm able to get my stunning fist dc's into the low 70's with quivering palms in the high 60's with a 18 monk/2 fighter build. I have rarely seen a stunning fist fail and quivering palms work on most things in EH stormhorns and about half the time in EE. Have sense weakness twisted and no mercy from ninja spy for a lot of extra damage to helpless enemies so I'm still able to do a lot of damage to everything I'm stunning.

Stunning fist:
Base: 10
Wis mod: 20
+stun item: 10
+exceptional combat mastery: 5
+half char lvl: 14
fighter tactics: 3
Legendary tactics: 6
GMOF: 3
fighter past lifex1: 1

Total 72 + -3 fort saves from 1 imp sunder.

Quivering palm
Base: 10
Wis mod: 20
+ sunder item: 10
exceptional combat mastery: 5
+half monk lvl: 9
fighter tactics: 3
Legendary tactics: 6
GMOF: 3
fighter past lifex1: 1

Total: 67 + -3 from 1 imp sunder

Those will get higher if I ever get my hands on the higher +stun/sunder items.

Soulfurnace
09-10-2013, 10:28 PM
-snip-
He said it right.
My theory is simple. 10 dmg/hit (at a stretch!), or 4 to stunning fist DC (20% higher chance to land). Seeming helpless is 1.5*dmg, that's typically better - by a long shot. (It's 2.1*dmg for me, making it even more worth it.)


So, you're telling me that monks nowadays pump every stat point into wisdom and become stunbots/living crowd control and nothing else? I was not aware of this...
Every monk I know and every monk I build is. The 50% helpless (more with sense weakness+show no mercy) means much more than more dmg mod. My unarmed palemaster breaks that rule - slightly. I got bored enough to put 2 levels up into str for overwhelming crit. (Mainly because I can.)
The rest? Pure wisdom, with every +tactics I can get my hands on.

By maxing wisdom (like the cleric example) you would have to start with a base 18 wisdom, at least, and every level up point going into wisdom and taking all wisdom enhancements you can get (human would be good with this), not to mention tomes, items, and everything else with wisdom you can find. Even then it's not going to be reliable, because monks do not have access to such feats as 'evocation focus' or make use of spell focus items to increase the DC's of finisher/ki strike moves.

Finisher/ki strike moves were always sub-par, still are. Stunning fist alone makes a max amount of wisdom worth it. I don't want Henshin changed though, I quite like the staff focus - if you just want the strikes to be buffed, I'll agree to that.

HastyPudding
09-11-2013, 01:09 AM
He said it right.
My theory is simple. 10 dmg/hit (at a stretch!), or 4 to stunning fist DC (20% higher chance to land). Seeming helpless is 1.5*dmg, that's typically better - by a long shot. (It's 2.1*dmg for me, making it even more worth it.)


Every monk I know and every monk I build is. The 50% helpless (more with sense weakness+show no mercy) means much more than more dmg mod. My unarmed palemaster breaks that rule - slightly. I got bored enough to put 2 levels up into str for overwhelming crit. (Mainly because I can.)
The rest? Pure wisdom, with every +tactics I can get my hands on.


Finisher/ki strike moves were always sub-par, still are. Stunning fist alone makes a max amount of wisdom worth it. I don't want Henshin changed though, I quite like the staff focus - if you just want the strikes to be buffed, I'll agree to that.

Well yeah, I like that Henshin uses quarterstaves (fuels the whole mystic thing, anyway). It's just that yes, the ki abilities need a serious boost if they're going to be anything other than a gimmick (like the poorly executed cleric protection tree or the alchemical traps from the rogue mechanic). Henshin needs to be able to boost ki strikes and finishers far beyond that of other monks, otherwise there's just no justification of using a staff, using ki finishers, or even spending more than a few cursory points in the tree. 50 spellpower and +3 DC's doesn't cut it. Double that and it might -- just might -- become close to approaching viable.

So, how would a wisdom build work on a Henshin, seeing as Henshin has more reason to go pure wisdom than any other monk. Using quarterstaves, it seems a bit awkward, but several key Henshin abilities require a staff (like the doublestrike proc, an entire line of damage, and boosting spellpower). I'm not sure how wielding a staff with average strength will do, and not be able to make up for it in ki usage, not to mention flame stance vastly increases ki generation, which a Henshin needs a lot of to function in its role.

Zachski
09-19-2013, 12:30 AM
Honestly as optimistic a player as I am, I can't find any room to deny that Henshin Mystic needs some help, as much as I want to roll one up sometimes. So, uh, here's my ideas, see if you like them or not.

1. The type of damage you do is Force + your stance element. So if you're in water stance, you deal cold damage. Fire stance, fire damage. Earth stance, physical damage (since monks don't seem to be fond of acid) and of course air stance is electric. No stance active would just apply more force damage. Water stance would obviously be ideal for overcoming saves, but this still makes the other stances useful.

2. Mystics can channel the power of the elements through their quarter staves, effectively dealing additional elemental damage based on their Wisdom stat. It's a straight increase. If you have a +8 Wisdom modifier, you deal 8 additional elemental damage. Or if you're in earth stance, you deal 8 additional physical damage.

3. An enhancement that depends on having fists of light or fists of darkness. If you have Fists of Light, you get an enhancement that more or less lets you fling a ball of positive energy ki at an ally for a ki cost. (A single target Healing Ki, basically, which gives Shintao Light Monks still some usability) If you have Fists of Darkness, you get the ability to fling a ball of negative energy ki at an enemy... or a friendly undead. Including yourself if you're a Pale Master.

4. Of course, points in Shintao grants Universal Spell Power, maybe even in addition to Fire/Force. Though perhaps JUST USP would be best.

Of course, the disclaimer is that I'm merely basing this off of what I've read from what people say, I have no idea if what I suggested would even theoretically help, but it can't harm anything to throw it out there, right? .... Right?

HastyPudding
09-19-2013, 12:01 PM
Honestly as optimistic a player as I am, I can't find any room to deny that Henshin Mystic needs some help, as much as I want to roll one up sometimes. So, uh, here's my ideas, see if you like them or not.

1. The type of damage you do is Force + your stance element. So if you're in water stance, you deal cold damage. Fire stance, fire damage. Earth stance, physical damage (since monks don't seem to be fond of acid) and of course air stance is electric. No stance active would just apply more force damage. Water stance would obviously be ideal for overcoming saves, but this still makes the other stances useful.

2. Mystics can channel the power of the elements through their quarter staves, effectively dealing additional elemental damage based on their Wisdom stat. It's a straight increase. If you have a +8 Wisdom modifier, you deal 8 additional elemental damage. Or if you're in earth stance, you deal 8 additional physical damage.

3. An enhancement that depends on having fists of light or fists of darkness. If you have Fists of Light, you get an enhancement that more or less lets you fling a ball of positive energy ki at an ally for a ki cost. (A single target Healing Ki, basically, which gives Shintao Light Monks still some usability) If you have Fists of Darkness, you get the ability to fling a ball of negative energy ki at an enemy... or a friendly undead. Including yourself if you're a Pale Master.

4. Of course, points in Shintao grants Universal Spell Power, maybe even in addition to Fire/Force. Though perhaps JUST USP would be best.

Of course, the disclaimer is that I'm merely basing this off of what I've read from what people say, I have no idea if what I suggested would even theoretically help, but it can't harm anything to throw it out there, right? .... Right?


1. An interesting idea, but I think earth stance would be abused for its generality. It would have to be acid damage, seeing as physical or untyped would be deemed 'overpowered' and overused, especially given what earth stance already adds to physical attacks.

2. I like this idea. You could even make a passive ability in the tree that adds a flat rate per tier, like 1d4/2d4/3d4.

3. There's something similar in the tier 5 abilities for Henshin. I do like the idea of a positive/negative line, though. You could even add in light damage to the positive line and negative level drain to the negative line. Lots of possibilities here.

4. Shintao grants positive energy spellpower, not universal, and it's a flat rate per core enhancement. I do like the idea of Henshin adding maybe 0.75 universal spellpower per point spent in the tree.

Zachski
09-19-2013, 02:54 PM
Sorry, I meant to type 'Henshin' instead of 'Shintao' in that last bit there. Ah-whoops.

I'll defer to people who have more experience, of course.

Maelodic
09-22-2013, 09:02 PM
Henshin does need a rework. The concepts they've implemented are loosely based on a standard PnP henshin but it doesn't make it right for this game.

Quarterstaff damage is too low, unless you choose to forgo all the other concepts of the henshin.
The spell damage is hilariously bad. You can't metamagic anything and even when you're fully invested in the tree, Cauldron is the only one worth using as long as you just want to hold the attack button and spin your camera around.
The hybrid concept is cool, but you won't be doing anything. Henshins as they are currently are betting going halfling for the companion buff, and then sitting in the middle of the fight and buffing everybody with focus while using cauldron as they attempt to tank with embrace the void. You can do that three times per rest, but the DPS drop is staggering.

HastyPudding
09-23-2013, 03:47 PM
Henshin does need a rework. The concepts they've implemented are loosely based on a standard PnP henshin but it doesn't make it right for this game.

Quarterstaff damage is too low, unless you choose to forgo all the other concepts of the henshin.
The spell damage is hilariously bad. You can't metamagic anything and even when you're fully invested in the tree, Cauldron is the only one worth using as long as you just want to hold the attack button and spin your camera around.
The hybrid concept is cool, but you won't be doing anything. Henshins as they are currently are betting going halfling for the companion buff, and then sitting in the middle of the fight and buffing everybody with focus while using cauldron as they attempt to tank with embrace the void. You can do that three times per rest, but the DPS drop is staggering.

The quarterstaff damage is actually part of the problem. In order to have decent damage you need strength, but your ki abilities (the main focus of the tree) are based completely on wisdom. It's pretty much you gain in one part you lose in another, which is okay for a class with different trees, but horrible for a single tree. All parts in a tree should work in harmony with each other (like rogue acrobat or the different sorcerer savants). Henshin's clearly does not, and while having high wisdom increases ki DC's and your overall usefulness with ki, the damage they deal through ki is terrible and simply not worth it, making Henshin nothing more than a monk with a staff and no stunning fist and a couple near-useless ki abilities. A wisdom-to-damage mod would fix a large portion of the trouble in this tree.

The fact that they added spell critical to the henshin's core enhancements and ignored the other glaring flaws makes me think that nothing will ever, ever be done about henshin's mediocrity. I had such high hopes for this prestige, which are now dashed away.

Karavek
09-23-2013, 03:55 PM
After playing mine a bit, I've noticed several things:

1. If you use quarterstaves, you lose out on stunning fist. If you are an unarmed Henshin monk, you lose out on many bonuses Henshin provides for quarterstaves such as increased damage, increased fire/force spellpower, and several Henshin abilities.

2. You'll never have the DC's for your finishers and ki abilities to be competitive in end-game epics. The only way this is even remotely possible is if you take a minimum strength build and totally pump wisdom; I mean like a cleric pump's wisdom, all chips in the pot, no-holds-barred pure wisdom monk.

3. There are no items (other than +wisdom) that can help your monk DC's. The +3 you get from the Henshin tree is just not enough to even warrant getting. There are also no items that are truly monk-friendly that add fire or force spellpower.

So what does this leave you as? I don't see it being anything but a quarterstaff-using monk with a few gimmicky (and that's putting it lightly) fire/force abilities or an excuse to multiclass a rogue acrobat. The tree needs serious work. In many ways, it feels like the dump tree for monks, the same as the rogue mechanic or a protection cleric trees: useful abilities to all rogues/clerics, but nobody serious about rogues/clerics is going to be a full 20 rogue mechanic/protection cleric as the tree lacks anything resembling power on the level of assassin/acrobat or radiant/disciple. A few (interesting) suggestions:

1. Turn Henshin into a true spellcasting monk (like the kind you see in movies and books: a monk breathing fire, levitating off the ground, using kinetic energy, etc). Keep their quarterstaff damage line, by all means, they're still a melee class and need to build ki. Henshin shouldn't be a prestige about a dps class with a few special ki abilities; it should be a monk based on ki abilities with back-up dps with quarterstaves.

2. Increase the Henshin's ability to gain and retain ki, but keep these methods in higher tiers of the tree so that Shintao or Ninjas can't abuse them without heavily speccing into it. 5 uses of meditation is great, but they should regenerate on tier 3 of 'Embrace the Void'; not quickly, but maybe 1 every 3 minutes. The most important and powerful Henshin abilities require a use of meditation -- as they should in fact -- but they severely reduce your mobility, limiting their situational use even further than they already are. Sure, Shintao and Ninjas can get this easily, as well, but what use do they have for it other than gaining ki while waiting for things? Beyond level 12 or so, only Henshin can truly make use of meditation.

3. Give Henshin the ability to use metamagic feats on ki strikes and finishers (and increase ki cost comparatively), or GIVE Henshin ability toggles that work the same way. This should obviously be a tier 5 Henshin ability, preventing Ninjas and Shintao from abusing its uses. This would give some leeway and planning into the build, since tier 5 requires level 12 and prohibits other tier 5 abilities in other trees from being taken. Thus, this would prevent Henshin from being a low level powerhouse (like fire savant sorcerers are right now), but give them better ki usage at the level when ki-based damage abilities begin to wane and decrease in power, improving their performance in this area beyond that of other monks, as they should be.

4. Change the near pointless elemental debuff ki strikes that Henshin has. In the grand scheme of things, these are next to useless and would be better suited to more useful ki-based abilities. It is unfortunate that, in order to get the void vorpal attack, you need to get all 4 of these abilities.

Questions? Thoughts?

What I am really hearing here is Henshin cant function in EE because they cant super focus. Maybe the more applicable complaint should be taht EE should not be having mobs with saves so high the typical spell caster needs a full kit of past lives to be viable and thus proxy gimp all the rest who dont, and all abilities that use saves that cant be pumped up the same extreme way.

What the Devs and the players need to grasp, is that if you build a godlike spell caster there should no longer be ANY CONTENT capable of challenging you. Instead they demand a challenge and create these kinds of issues. because only in EE are those DCs you feel are to weak a legitimate complaint. And that is only because EE is not really directed at first life casters at the moment.

Really the more I see threads like this the more I feel/fear Turbines only viable option is to do to saving throws what they did to armor class, unless people can finally grasp that super characters do not need to be challenged. Challenge is for those who want it, not for those who build to negate it.

HastyPudding
09-23-2013, 08:17 PM
What I am really hearing here is Henshin cant function in EE because they cant super focus. Maybe the more applicable complaint should be taht EE should not be having mobs with saves so high the typical spell caster needs a full kit of past lives to be viable and thus proxy gimp all the rest who dont, and all abilities that use saves that cant be pumped up the same extreme way.

What the Devs and the players need to grasp, is that if you build a godlike spell caster there should no longer be ANY CONTENT capable of challenging you. Instead they demand a challenge and create these kinds of issues. because only in EE are those DCs you feel are to weak a legitimate complaint. And that is only because EE is not really directed at first life casters at the moment.

Really the more I see threads like this the more I feel/fear Turbines only viable option is to do to saving throws what they did to armor class, unless people can finally grasp that super characters do not need to be challenged. Challenge is for those who want it, not for those who build to negate it.

Really?

I don't want an overpowered character, but have you even seen the damage dealt by henshin's abilities? It's downright abysmal; this is on a tier with a weak spellsinger's sonic spells, AT BEST. I'm not asking for sorcerer-style damage, but come on, dealing 15-25 damage for 5 ki when mobs have 3-500 HP is just ridiculous. The tree has such great potential, but it's wasted on half-hearted attempts at a ki-focused monk. A henshin won't even make it to EE. Their ki usage won't even be viable in level 18 content without heavy, heavy emphasis on wisdom and spellpower, and even then they don't have the DC's to make them useful and their damage output would be limited to quarterstaff dps, which, frankly, simply doesn't compare to the unarmed damage of a shintao or the quarterstaff damage of a rogue acrobat.

All I'm saying is give henshin something to work with.

Maelodic
09-24-2013, 11:50 AM
Really?

I don't want an overpowered character, but have you even seen the damage dealt by henshin's abilities? It's downright abysmal; this is on a tier with a weak spellsinger's sonic spells, AT BEST. I'm not asking for sorcerer-style damage, but come on, dealing 15-25 damage for 5 ki when mobs have 3-500 HP is just ridiculous. The tree has such great potential, but it's wasted on half-hearted attempts at a ki-focused monk. A henshin won't even make it to EE. Their ki usage won't even be viable in level 18 content without heavy, heavy emphasis on wisdom and spellpower, and even then they don't have the DC's to make them useful and their damage output would be limited to quarterstaff dps, which, frankly, simply doesn't compare to the unarmed damage of a shintao or the quarterstaff damage of a rogue acrobat.

All I'm saying is give henshin something to work with.

Agreed. As stated, the only spell moderately useful is the cauldron and your fire finisher.
Quivering palm can do damage, but the only other WIS based strike you'll be using would be the Anti Dark/Light moves or if you want to be crazy, Touch of Death and not get any Henshin Capstones, which I feel would be bogus.

Henshin Mystics get at cap:
+12 Damage of fire
+50 Fire/Force Spell Power
Assuming +10 Quarterstaff- +30 Universal Spell Power
+10% Fire/Force Spell Crit

As a comparison, Deepwood Sniper gets a total of 90 Positive Spell Power at the moment, and that's something that will help the DWS in all situations, not just ones where the enemies aren't immune to you.

Incinerating Wave does 10d6 Damage plus an additional 2 damage per two Monk levels (Max of 20 damage extra at Monk 20). This hits 1-2 times max. A perfect 2 hit situation will result in a total of 80 damage before spell power. Note that this is the very max damage this ability can do, each roll of the d6 being 6.

Wall of Fire is a staple AoE spell used by arcane casters that can be used with metamagics and ticks many times as long as the enemy is in the flame. The most this can hit in two ticks is 64, which is roughly 15 damage below Incinerating Wave. However as the standard damage is 3-4 ticks, the damage a single wall of fire usually is far greater than Incinerating Wave because of metamagics and more more spell power availability. Wall of Fire is also considerably more useful as it is ranged, is easier to aim, and casts quicker.

As a Ki move that removes you from melee combat and does less than a cleave, using incinerating wave at all is a poor decision- even when specialized entirely to Fire/Force.

Ki Bolt is of the same situation. Maximum of 100 damage in a perfect situation. Shurikens would do a considerable amount more DPS even if you're only specced into shurikens a little bit.

Cauldron of Flame is an odd animal. I have yet to test this, but it looks like they took the cap off of the spell so I guess it could be used to have the Monk sit at the entrance in the Cauldron for 10 minutes and then just kite all the monsters there and one shot everything-
I don't think that's possible though. While Cauldron does decent damage the movement restriction gives this such an anti-utility issue that it's barely worth using and most definitely shouldn't be used in a party. This has the potential to add an excessive amount of damage, but because the Monk needs to be standing still, this is only useful for bosses while soloing and melees while soloing, and is hilariously countered by casters and archers. As previously stated- the only use I've found for it is either soloing or sitting in the middle of a boss room, letting your party know to stand next to you, and then meditating in the middle of it tanking damage and buffing your party.

Breath of the Fire Dragon is actually useful, it's max damage being 20d6 or 120 before spell power- this eventually is very outscaled by EDs and higher equipment but can be situationally useful especially when destroying trash, but does become useless at endgame.

Lighting the Candle doesn't add enough damage to justify the ki loss.
Void Strike's Pre-reqs are useless- the only one you would use is fire, and with the low damage of your fire spells, the Ki usage does not justify using the elemental strikes.

The capstones are actually great. Anti-dark and anti-light are extremely useful, and rival the other monk capstones especially since it enables the dark freeze and the light buffs and heal. Anti-light is great before epic levels and the bursty heal spamming will keep you alive forever. The no-save neg levels are also awesome, and you can spam it on bosses or high HP mobs when your quivering palm sucks because you've specced STR to make your QStaff damage acceptable.

Spell DCs are all or nothing. Going 20 Monk is the only way to make your ki spells scale high enough. Either you go full WIS and get your DC and spell power up and try to make your wimpy spells hit for at least a tiny amount and use Quivering Palm, Freezing the Lifeblood, and Anti-Light for sustain or you go STR or DEX based and use Anti-Dark to debuff and kill and ignore your Ki blasts (which are what a Henshin should be focus on) and just use the light buffs and heals to keep yourself afloat and splash 3 Rogue so you can use DEX to damage or 1-2 Rogue for the attack speed boost.

You cannot be a pure Henshin how it should be. Every other tree it's possible to spec into purely and still be viable. You will be mostly useless as a pure Henshin.

Failedlegend
09-24-2013, 06:41 PM
After playing mine a bit, I've noticed several things:

1. If you use quarterstaves, you lose out on stunning fist. If you are an unarmed Henshin monk, you lose out on many bonuses Henshin provides for quarterstaves such as increased damage, increased fire/force spellpower, and several Henshin abilities.

Well almost all monk abilities now work with any MELEE ki weapons and IIRC stunning fist should be too so I'd reccomned bug reporting it



2. You'll never have the DC's for your finishers and ki abilities to be competitive in end-game epics. The only way this is even remotely possible is if you take a minimum strength build and totally pump wisdom; I mean like a cleric pump's wisdom, all chips in the pot, no-holds-barred pure wisdom monk.

3. There are no items (other than +wisdom) that can help your monk DC's. The +3 you get from the Henshin tree is just not enough to even warrant getting. There are also no items that are truly monk-friendly that add fire or force spellpower.

I half agree with you...yes there is no way to increase your DCs thus will never get end-game or even at level viable DCs but I have no issue with having to be Wis based for it to work...what needs to be done is giving Monks Wisdom to damage with q-staffs




1. Turn Henshin into a true spellcasting monk (like the kind you see in movies and books: a monk breathing fire, levitating off the ground, using kinetic energy, etc). Keep their quarterstaff damage line, by all means, they're still a melee class and need to build ki. Henshin shouldn't be a prestige about a dps class with a few special ki abilities; it should be a monk based on ki abilities with back-up dps with quarterstaves.

100% agree :D



2. Increase the Henshin's ability to gain and retain ki, but keep these methods in higher tiers of the tree so that Shintao or Ninjas can't abuse them without heavily speccing into it. 5 uses of meditation is great, but they should regenerate on tier 3 of 'Embrace the Void'; not quickly, but maybe 1 every 3 minutes. The most important and powerful Henshin abilities require a use of meditation -- as they should in fact -- but they severely reduce your mobility, limiting their situational use even further than they already are. Sure, Shintao and Ninjas can get this easily, as well, but what use do they have for it other than gaining ki while waiting for things? Beyond level 12 or so, only Henshin can truly make use of meditation.

I'd like to see a tier 5 ability that lets you move whilst meditating call it "Poetry in Motion" or something



3. Give Henshin the ability to use metamagic feats on ki strikes and finishers (and increase ki cost comparatively), or GIVE Henshin ability toggles that work the same way. This should obviously be a tier 5 Henshin ability, preventing Ninjas and Shintao from abusing its uses. This would give some leeway and planning into the build, since tier 5 requires level 12 and prohibits other tier 5 abilities in other trees from being taken. Thus, this would prevent Henshin from being a low level powerhouse (like fire savant sorcerers are right now), but give them better ki usage at the level when ki-based damage abilities begin to wane and decrease in power, improving their performance in this area beyond that of other monks, as they should be.

I'd say something similar to the PM improved shrouds except have it be improved finishers works like maximize and maybe quicken...enlarge (which is a dumb name btw) on ranged ki attacks.



4. Change the near pointless elemental debuff ki strikes that Henshin has. In the grand scheme of things, these are next to useless and would be better suited to more useful ki-based abilities. It is unfortunate that, in order to get the void vorpal attack, you need to get all 4 of these abilities.
Questions? Thoughts?

I'd be fine if it was "On-hit 10% chance to apply all elemental weaknesses you've taken" with the caveat that once you take void strike you also apply a similar debuff that increases light and negative energy damage.

Maelodic
09-25-2013, 04:09 AM
Well almost all monk abilities now work with any MELEE ki weapons and IIRC stunning fist should be too so I'd reccomned bug reporting it


SqueakOfDoom reported that while Quivering Palm/ToD/Other monk abilities would work with melee weapons, Stunning Fist will not. It is WAI

Failedlegend
09-25-2013, 07:58 AM
SqueakOfDoom reported that while Quivering Palm/ToD/Other monk abilities would work with melee weapons, Stunning Fist will not. It is WAI

Did he say why? because I see no sense in that.

Maelodic
09-25-2013, 09:14 AM
Did he say why? because I see no sense in that.

Stunning blow would be the replacement- and Stunning Fist is something that could be easily abused by the new 12 Monk/8 Fighter combo or a druid with flaming scimmies or really a whole bunch of things. Quivering palm can be used ONLY with monk weapons because of the requirement on the fighter Tier 5, so I'm assuming they didn't want everybody stunning everything with every weapon imaginable.

PrimalConcreteSledge
09-25-2013, 10:37 AM
I agree henshin is a bit underpowered but since monk as a class is very overpowered atm...

/not signed

Maelodic
09-25-2013, 11:00 AM
I agree henshin is a bit underpowered but since monk as a class is very overpowered atm...

/not signed

This is like saying a caster cleric is overpowered, so if Warpriest is underpowered we shouldn't pay attention to it, or Archmage is gimped, but we shouldn't support the playstyle because Pale Master is too powerful.

There were many people including myself incredibly excited for this PrE- just because monks are strong does not mean that one of their PrEs and playstyles should be utterly useless.

PrimalConcreteSledge
09-25-2013, 11:54 AM
This is like saying a caster cleric is overpowered, so if Warpriest is underpowered we shouldn't pay attention to it, or Archmage is gimped, but we shouldn't support the playstyle because Pale Master is too powerful.

There were many people including myself incredibly excited for this PrE- just because monks are strong does not mean that one of their PrEs and playstyles should be utterly useless.

Agreed. I'm just saying a nerf is in order before the boost. As it is now, all things considered, henshin monks seams just fine compared to many other classes.

Maelodic
09-25-2013, 11:58 AM
Agreed. I'm just saying a nerf is in order before the boost. As it is now, all things considered, henshin monks seams just fine compared to many other classes.

Please try one on Lamannia or something before you make this assumption. Being forced to switch from your already suffering PrE because the reason you picked the PrE is no longer viable is not "just fine"

Fighters, barbs, and other classes have these issues at the moment- but they can't really do a whole lot to buff them because multiclassing is way too powerful at the moment.

Gavman
09-25-2013, 07:41 PM
<snip>

3. There are no items (other than +wisdom) that can help your monk DC's. The +3 you get from the Henshin tree is just not enough to even warrant getting. There are also no items that are truly monk-friendly that add fire or force spellpower.



What about Ki bolt? While it doesn't add to your dc's, it does reduce your opponents saves by up to 5. that's actually better than +5dc's since any of your fellow party members can take advantage of it.

Don't know if it is practical; IIRC you would have to spam it for 30 secs on 1 opponent to make maximum use of it. May be useful against orange Bosses to bring their saves low enough that something can get through, but it would have to be tested.

Ayseifn
09-26-2013, 12:35 AM
HM is pretty great, only issue I have is I had to waste some AP on stuff I don't use at all really just to unlock the good stuff. It's still way better than either pally PrE and there's a lot less wasted APs compared to other trees so don't see the big deal.

TeacherSyn
09-27-2013, 04:46 PM
I've been watching this thread while playing my pure 16 Mystic like crazy.

Here's my thing. I've played only divine spellcasters like Clerics. Their offensive spells are damaging but nowhere near those of Wizards and Sorcerers, walking artillery batteries that they are. Yet the Cleric holds up and can even go melee with significant damage.

My feeling is that the same limitations on Clerics apply to the Mystics.

A Monk is a Monk. They gain a significant amount of abilities no matter what class tree is played from their base feats. They are a melee character, so we shouldn't expect the devs to retool the class outside of the D&D sources they choose to apply. That said, you have to balance the melee power to the spell damage of any class.

Mystics don't gain metamagics, but they also have a relatively unlimited source of power to use: ki. This is why the Mystics can get up to 5 Meditations, 3 more than any other Monk, and get additional passive ki regenerations as they level. My experience is that, at level 15 quests with Combustion/Potency +66 rings on, with a Wrath of Sora Kell set going, I'm watching enemies with normal vulnerability to fire and Force damage getting hit with something around 100-150 damage per wave.

That Wave is in addition to slamming a mob with a 4W Whirlwind Attack. After about 2 or 3 Waves and a few whirlwinds with criticals and glancing blows going off, my mobs are often gone.

Fighting with a Mystic at my level doesn't seem to be any less challenging than using the Grandmaster of Flowers's Drifting Lotus slam attack. Yep, it's not boosted by spell power. It's ki-powered. It often does 300-450 pure magic damage that hardly anything can resist and knocks down enemies. But in Epic, the Lotus isn't an end-all-be-all killer since the enemies have more HP.

In short, with good ki management and some general spell power boosts, the Mystic is designed to run mobs ragged. Add in some good doublestrike and cleaving action and elemental form attacks, as well as the really potent Every Light Casts a Shadow to mass neg-level (watch out in neg-leveling your party until it's fixed/explained!) and you have a really powerful character.

Remember, too, that the Mystic is the ONLY class that can now use EVERY finishing move, Light, Dark or elemental. Until the devs add back a low-level Void Strike, they are the only class tree that can use the Level 10 special finishers. That's a lot of versatility.

They will be weakest against Fire-immunes, but I've noticed that I get my best spell power in the Impulse area, and devils and dragons are understandably designed as Not to Casually Killed by Joe Player.

Other challenges I've seen with the Mystics include:


Average HP. They get the general Monk HP and have weaker defenses than the other trees.
Quarterstaves wear out very quickly. If you're used to handwraps, prepare for a shock and a higher repair bill.
Mystics are more gear-dependent, from alchemical potions and staves to AC items.
Mystics have the most challenging ki management outside an experienced Touch-of-Death spamming Ninja Spy.
You have to think more about arcane skills (spell power) as well as traditional weapon damage (non-Monk fighting) as a player to boost damage to both areas. I'm weaker here since I play almost exclusively Monks.



So to sum up, my take is that the Mystic is surprisingly balanced when you remember that it's still a melee character. When you add in stick and spell damage, the Mystic does work. I'm hoping for a few more abilities too, but so far I've been surprisingly impressed by it.

HastyPudding
09-28-2013, 12:16 PM
I've been watching this thread while playing my pure 16 Mystic like crazy.

Here's my thing. I've played only divine spellcasters like Clerics. Their offensive spells are damaging but nowhere near those of Wizards and Sorcerers, walking artillery batteries that they are. Yet the Cleric holds up and can even go melee with significant damage.

My feeling is that the same limitations on Clerics apply to the Mystics.

A Monk is a Monk. They gain a significant amount of abilities no matter what class tree is played from their base feats. They are a melee character, so we shouldn't expect the devs to retool the class outside of the D&D sources they choose to apply. That said, you have to balance the melee power to the spell damage of any class.

Mystics don't gain metamagics, but they also have a relatively unlimited source of power to use: ki. This is why the Mystics can get up to 5 Meditations, 3 more than any other Monk, and get additional passive ki regenerations as they level. My experience is that, at level 15 quests with Combustion/Potency +66 rings on, with a Wrath of Sora Kell set going, I'm watching enemies with normal vulnerability to fire and Force damage getting hit with something around 100-150 damage per wave.

That Wave is in addition to slamming a mob with a 4W Whirlwind Attack. After about 2 or 3 Waves and a few whirlwinds with criticals and glancing blows going off, my mobs are often gone.

Fighting with a Mystic at my level doesn't seem to be any less challenging than using the Grandmaster of Flowers's Drifting Lotus slam attack. Yep, it's not boosted by spell power. It's ki-powered. It often does 300-450 pure magic damage that hardly anything can resist and knocks down enemies. But in Epic, the Lotus isn't an end-all-be-all killer since the enemies have more HP.

In short, with good ki management and some general spell power boosts, the Mystic is designed to run mobs ragged. Add in some good doublestrike and cleaving action and elemental form attacks, as well as the really potent Every Light Casts a Shadow to mass neg-level (watch out in neg-leveling your party until it's fixed/explained!) and you have a really powerful character.

Remember, too, that the Mystic is the ONLY class that can now use EVERY finishing move, Light, Dark or elemental. Until the devs add back a low-level Void Strike, they are the only class tree that can use the Level 10 special finishers. That's a lot of versatility.

They will be weakest against Fire-immunes, but I've noticed that I get my best spell power in the Impulse area, and devils and dragons are understandably designed as Not to Casually Killed by Joe Player.

Other challenges I've seen with the Mystics include:


Average HP. They get the general Monk HP and have weaker defenses than the other trees.
Quarterstaves wear out very quickly. If you're used to handwraps, prepare for a shock and a higher repair bill.
Mystics are more gear-dependent, from alchemical potions and staves to AC items.
Mystics have the most challenging ki management outside an experienced Touch-of-Death spamming Ninja Spy.
You have to think more about arcane skills (spell power) as well as traditional weapon damage (non-Monk fighting) as a player to boost damage to both areas. I'm weaker here since I play almost exclusively Monks.



So to sum up, my take is that the Mystic is surprisingly balanced when you remember that it's still a melee character. When you add in stick and spell damage, the Mystic does work. I'm hoping for a few more abilities too, but so far I've been surprisingly impressed by it.


Obviously, with some effort the henshin can work, but that doesn't negate the fact that there is a ton of wasted space in the tree, and the abilities cost way too much (more than any other tree that I've looked at, in fact) especially for what they do (like the elemental weakness attacks, which are a complete and utter waste of 8 AP). No matter which way you slice it, the tree still falls flat compared to shintao and ninja, mostly in the unique function of the tree itself. Every class has to balance the 'give-and-take' but Henshin simply can't have it like that: it's either strong dps and very weak ki abilities or weak dps and weak ki abilities, as you'll never have the DC's necessary for your ki abilities to function in anything above EN difficulty.

Maelodic
09-28-2013, 07:19 PM
as you'll never have the DC's necessary for your ki abilities to function in anything above EN difficulty.

This-

You're spending a whole lot of AP and effort to get to the caps, but the only things that you'll have that will be functional past 20 are the passive increases, anti-light/dark moves, and the extra crit. Beyond 20, because your only useful abilities outside of quivering palm are either passives or no-save, there's very little reason not to go full STR Overwhelming Crit/Earth Stance and 18 Mnk/2 Rog or 16/4 for the attack speed+haste boost with Sireth, and just kind of ignore the fact that you're a Monk in general.

TeacherSyn
09-28-2013, 10:37 PM
Obviously, with some effort the henshin can work, but that doesn't negate the fact that there is a ton of wasted space in the tree, and the abilities cost way too much (more than any other tree that I've looked at, in fact) especially for what they do (like the elemental weakness attacks, which are a complete and utter waste of 8 AP). No matter which way you slice it, the tree still falls flat compared to shintao and ninja, mostly in the unique function of the tree itself. Every class has to balance the 'give-and-take' but Henshin simply can't have it like that: it's either strong dps and very weak ki abilities or weak dps and weak ki abilities, as you'll never have the DC's necessary for your ki abilities to function in anything above EN difficulty.

My respectful answer is simply, "So?"

This is a brand new "prestige" path. Ninja and Shintao have had time to mature, as has the Monk class itself. We can't expect perfection out of the gate. Doesn't mean we can't make suggestions--and the thoughts here need to be also sent to the Suggestions forum.

All the class trees have a specialty. The Mystic can handle trash mobs extremely well and the design appears to reflect this. As with spellcasters, they'll run into limits, such as demons or things immune to this and that. They aren't as strong or resilient as Shintao. They aren't filled with specializations as Ninjas. They are nasty with force and fire damage and quarterstave beat downs.

I agree that the Elemental Words (moved from the old Ninja enhancements) should likely go in favor of improved spell power or one other attack option. I do not expect the devs to add metamagics because Mystics aren't using magic, nor to see them reach spellcaster-level spell power. But an option to increase it in a monastic way unique to the Henshin but exclusive to others, I can go for that.

So far, I've been tooling things very well, especially with an unlocked Dreamspitter. Quite the "Woo-Woo" stick that weakens a mob with a whirlwind strike before fire and force eat them.

But for now, playing the class as it is, I don't see an immediate problem, save one.

The Henshin is the only thing that gets Void Strike, as I may have mentioned before, which keeps anyone that wants to train dominantly in another tree from using the Level 10 void finishers.

Give it time. It's pretty good to start and there's room for improvement.

HastyPudding
09-29-2013, 12:06 PM
My respectful answer is simply, "So?"

This is a brand new "prestige" path. Ninja and Shintao have had time to mature, as has the Monk class itself. We can't expect perfection out of the gate. Doesn't mean we can't make suggestions--and the thoughts here need to be also sent to the Suggestions forum.

All the class trees have a specialty. The Mystic can handle trash mobs extremely well and the design appears to reflect this. As with spellcasters, they'll run into limits, such as demons or things immune to this and that. They aren't as strong or resilient as Shintao. They aren't filled with specializations as Ninjas. They are nasty with force and fire damage and quarterstave beat downs.

1. Henshin does not handle trash mobs in a unique or powerful way. They handle trash mobs like any other melee handles trash mobs except with the addition of glancing blows like barbarians, thf fighters/paladins and acrobats. In fact, rogue acrobats are often just as strong at using a staff and also attack faster, are much more lenient with stat placement, and as they super-specialize in quarterstaff damage (unlike henshin which is a hybrid) and have sneak attacks, they're simply better at it.

2. Henshin most certainly are NOT nasty with fire/force ki damage on trash mobs, especially the higher you get where the damage you inflict with them is pitiful in comparison to the mob's HP. As stated before, it's either strong quarterstaff dps and very weak ki damage or weak quarterstaff dps and weak ki damage. You can't have both, and honestly, by looking at the results, trying to go for ki damage is pretty much gimping yourself because, as stated before, you will never have the DC's capable of anything worthwhile in end-game content (if wizards and sorcerers already have some difficulty in end-game epics, henshin won't stand a chance). If you're only going for pure quarterstaff dps, you're ignoring the highlight and purpose of the tree which, quite frankly, falls far short of its goal. It's a mess -- a great idea, to be sure -- but poorly executed. A wisdom-to-damage mod for staves would fix many issues in this arena, but the ki damage will still be low.


I agree that the Elemental Words (moved from the old Ninja enhancements) should likely go in favor of improved spell power or one other attack option. I do not expect the devs to add metamagics because Mystics aren't using magic, nor to see them reach spellcaster-level spell power. But an option to increase it in a monastic way unique to the Henshin but exclusive to others, I can go for that.

I don't expect metamagics to be used for henshin mystics, but something similar would be useful. Those elemental words, for all intents and purposes, are useless and need to be remove and replaced. Nobody should use them nor waste their precious ki on them and they certainly do not need to cost 2 AP; that's nothing more than bad development, which further illustrates my point that henshin has a very rushed and incomplete feel. People will say 'well use the flame one to lower the enemy's resistance to fire so you can deal more fire damage with your abilities'. I say 'no, that's very impractical and the majority of mobs will die faster than you can take advantage of this situation, wasting your ki in the process'.


So far, I've been tooling things very well, especially with an unlocked Dreamspitter. Quite the "Woo-Woo" stick that weakens a mob with a whirlwind strike before fire and force eat them.

But for now, playing the class as it is, I don't see an immediate problem, save one.

The Henshin is the only thing that gets Void Strike, as I may have mentioned before, which keeps anyone that wants to train dominantly in another tree from using the Level 10 void finishers.

Give it time. It's pretty good to start and there's room for improvement.

The force-based Rahl's Might staff from Mindsunder would be good at level 18.

I've never seen anyone so happy about void-strike finishers. V-L-V is semi-useful but with such a short duration it's expensive under normal circumstances except for spamming at red/purple boss fights, and judging from how much mystics need and use ki, it's impractical. V-D-V is an oddball, considering most people frown on charming/dominating trash mobs because it slows things down except in the few -- rare -- occasions. So, like most things in the henshin tree, I respond with a resounding 'meh'. I also don't understand why you'd think giving other monks the void strike back would be a good idea; this only serves to weaken an already weak tree.

TeacherSyn
09-29-2013, 08:25 PM
1. Henshin does not handle trash mobs in a unique or powerful way. They handle trash mobs like any other melee handles trash mobs except with the addition of glancing blows like barbarians, thf fighters/paladins and acrobats. In fact, rogue acrobats are often just as strong at using a staff and also attack faster, are much more lenient with stat placement, and as they super-specialize in quarterstaff damage (unlike henshin which is a hybrid) and have sneak attacks, they're simply better at it.

2. Henshin most certainly are NOT nasty with fire/force ki damage on trash mobs, especially the higher you get where the damage you inflict with them is pitiful in comparison to the mob's HP. As stated before, it's either strong quarterstaff dps and very weak ki damage or weak quarterstaff dps and weak ki damage. You can't have both, and honestly, by looking at the results, trying to go for ki damage is pretty much gimping yourself because, as stated before, you will never have the DC's capable of anything worthwhile in end-game content (if wizards and sorcerers already have some difficulty in end-game epics, henshin won't stand a chance). If you're only going for pure quarterstaff dps, you're ignoring the highlight and purpose of the tree which, quite frankly, falls far short of its goal. It's a mess -- a great idea, to be sure -- but poorly executed. A wisdom-to-damage mod for staves would fix many issues in this arena, but the ki damage will still be low.



I don't expect metamagics to be used for henshin mystics, but something similar would be useful. Those elemental words, for all intents and purposes, are useless and need to be remove and replaced. Nobody should use them nor waste their precious ki on them and they certainly do not need to cost 2 AP; that's nothing more than bad development, which further illustrates my point that henshin has a very rushed and incomplete feel. People will say 'well use the flame one to lower the enemy's resistance to fire so you can deal more fire damage with your abilities'. I say 'no, that's very impractical and the majority of mobs will die faster than you can take advantage of this situation, wasting your ki in the process'.



The force-based Rahl's Might staff from Mindsunder would be good at level 18.

I've never seen anyone so happy about void-strike finishers. V-L-V is semi-useful but with such a short duration it's expensive under normal circumstances except for spamming at red/purple boss fights, and judging from how much mystics need and use ki, it's impractical. V-D-V is an oddball, considering most people frown on charming/dominating trash mobs because it slows things down except in the few -- rare -- occasions. So, like most things in the henshin tree, I respond with a resounding 'meh'. I also don't understand why you'd think giving other monks the void strike back would be a good idea; this only serves to weaken an already weak tree.

Funny you mentioned that: I just fully unlocked both a Force-based Rahl's Might and a Dreamspitter. They rock. I've been seeing 300+ crits occasionally with 200+ ones regularly.

I agree on Moment of Clarity; I use it in Part 1 of the Shroud but not many other places. The Curse of the Void, on the other hand, is awesome to turn mobs against itself and has no limit to the number you can charm. I know this is a matter of gameplay in terms of its usefulness, but it is useful. I used that often in solo play. If you're in a party, it might not be as useful or even detrimental.

Often, in keeping the Monk guide to date, I have to remember that my playstyle isn't the same as others, nor is it the best or worse. I try to ensure to document all options to pure Monk skills, even if I cannot or will not play them.

The "best" is what works for you, but it's good to keep an open mind in how it could be used, even if it's not your thing. Void attacks are great in that few things have resistance to that and a few nasties (like Will-o-Wisps) that hurt party members with low reflex are very vulnerable to it. Eveningstar quests are filled with those **** things. Dishing LOTS of Force damage is what I like about Mystics so far: carrying a Dreamspitter or Rahl's Might to magnify that is more fuel for the fire.

As for ki, as with many Monks, the higher you level, the better ki management works. I just grabbed an Alchemist's Pendant to help more to this, and by L20 I shouldn't require Fire stance all the time, I hope. But Mystics really chew the ki up. But key, we make more.

Much of the other things you note are playstyle related. I guess the class tree isn't something that works for you. Come back to it when it is and enjoy the refreshed things in the other trees. I'm sure it will improve.

Maelodic
09-29-2013, 09:03 PM
Funny you mentioned that: I just fully unlocked both a Force-based Rahl's Might and a Dreamspitter. They rock. I've been seeing 300+ crits occasionally with 200+ ones regularly.

I agree on Moment of Clarity; I use it in Part 1 of the Shroud but not many other places. The Curse of the Void, on the other hand, is awesome to turn mobs against itself and has no limit to the number you can charm. I know this is a matter of gameplay in terms of its usefulness, but it is useful. I used that often in solo play. If you're in a party, it might not be as useful or even detrimental.

Often, in keeping the Monk guide to date, I have to remember that my playstyle isn't the same as others, nor is it the best or worse. I try to ensure to document all options to pure Monk skills, even if I cannot or will not play them.

The "best" is what works for you, but it's good to keep an open mind in how it could be used, even if it's not your thing. Void attacks are great in that few things have resistance to that and a few nasties (like Will-o-Wisps) that hurt party members with low reflex are very vulnerable to it. Eveningstar quests are filled with those **** things. Dishing LOTS of Force damage is what I like about Mystics so far: carrying a Dreamspitter or Rahl's Might to magnify that is more fuel for the fire.

As for ki, as with many Monks, the higher you level, the better ki management works. I just grabbed an Alchemist's Pendant to help more to this, and by L20 I shouldn't require Fire stance all the time, I hope. But Mystics really chew the ki up. But key, we make more.

Much of the other things you note are playstyle related. I guess the class tree isn't something that works for you. Come back to it when it is and enjoy the refreshed things in the other trees. I'm sure it will improve.

"and by L20 I shouldn't require Fire stance all the time"

Assuming you haven't hit level 20 on your Henshin yet- Please reevaluate after you do. All that you have in anything but EN after level 20 from the henshin tree is:
Competence Bonus to Crit
Void IV
Anti-Dark/Light
Some improved Ki regen
Lighting the Candle
Some fire resistance

Everything else you get is useless because your DCs will not be high enough to use your Ki abilities and your Ki is better spent elsewhere. There are no feats or anything you can take that will cause your Ki abilities to be a viable use of ki at this point, and you've essentially turned into a rogue acrobat with far less DPS and a tiny bit more utility.

The point of Henshin was to make a trash destroyer, but after 20, which is where you'll spend a large amount of time, running any sort of epics with a Henshin will make you feel like a gimpy acrobat, because at this point that's all you are.

HastyPudding
09-30-2013, 12:21 AM
"and by L20 I shouldn't require Fire stance all the time"

Assuming you haven't hit level 20 on your Henshin yet- Please reevaluate after you do. All that you have in anything but EN after level 20 from the henshin tree is:
Competence Bonus to Crit
Void IV
Anti-Dark/Light
Some improved Ki regen
Lighting the Candle
Some fire resistance

Everything else you get is useless because your DCs will not be high enough to use your Ki abilities and your Ki is better spent elsewhere. There are no feats or anything you can take that will cause your Ki abilities to be a viable use of ki at this point, and you've essentially turned into a rogue acrobat with far less DPS and a tiny bit more utility.

The point of Henshin was to make a trash destroyer, but after 20, which is where you'll spend a large amount of time, running any sort of epics with a Henshin will make you feel like a gimpy acrobat, because at this point that's all you are.

That's what I've been saying. I'm sure some people will say 'well enjoy leveling as a henshin in the heroic levels'. That is like completely ignoring the fact that for the end half of the game, you're basically going to be gimped. That's no flaw of the player, that's a flaw of the tree, and it needs to be fixed.

My Henshin is currently sitting at level 12, simply because at that early a level, I can already see the makings of a gimped acrobat and it depresses me. Of all the new class enhancements in the recent pass, henshin was what I was looking forward to the most, and henshin was the one that disappointed me the most. If nothing happens to henshin within the next couple updates, I'm simply going to get him to 20 and TR back into an acrobat, which was much stronger in almost every way.

Ayseifn
09-30-2013, 12:41 AM
That's what I've been saying. I'm sure some people will say 'well enjoy leveling as a henshin in the heroic levels'. That is like completely ignoring the fact that for the end half of the game, you're basically going to be gimped. That's no flaw of the player, that's a flaw of the tree, and it needs to be fixed.

My Henshin is currently sitting at level 12, simply because at that early a level, I can already see the makings of a gimped acrobat and it depresses me. Of all the new class enhancements in the recent pass, henshin was what I was looking forward to the most, and henshin was the one that disappointed me the most. If nothing happens to henshin within the next couple updates, I'm simply going to get him to 20 and TR back into an acrobat, which was much stronger in almost every way.
It's more a flaw of the enhancement pass than of this particular tree. Since you're only level 12 you can probably fit in 3 rogue and 2 fighter or something without too much pain, if fighter tactics don't work with palm then there's always 2 ranger/fvs/etc. Heck, /2 rogue/3druid is pretty solid too. Pure any class is generally weak when you look at the alternatives.

HastyPudding
09-30-2013, 03:40 AM
It's more a flaw of the enhancement pass than of this particular tree. Since you're only level 12 you can probably fit in 3 rogue and 2 fighter or something without too much pain, if fighter tactics don't work with palm then there's always 2 ranger/fvs/etc. Heck, /2 rogue/3druid is pretty solid too. Pure any class is generally weak when you look at the alternatives.

That's the only real aspect of the pass that irritated me: the dev's obsession with multiclass. I'm a purist, out of both habit and principle, and the devs being obviously biased against pure classes (as noted in several horrible capstones) puts me on edge. It's my policy that if a class cannot function perfectly fine as a pure class it is broken and needs to be fixed. Sure, some combinations are strong (like monkchers, which I despise, and artificer mechanics) but if such multiclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the pure class, something is wrong. There needs to be a serious incentive in the 18 and 20 core abilities in each class to make going pure a benefit, not a problem.

Ayseifn
09-30-2013, 07:27 AM
I don't think it's an obsession with multiclass just issues balancing things, Ninja Spy got nerfed to only work with a small weapon group instead of all slash/pierce, druid will get nerfed and no longer work with the TWF feats eventually and other really powerful splashes might get a look in too(looking at you Divine Might).

The problem is too many different things stack that apparently shouldn't, HM Staff Training still stacks with TA Staff Training, NS SA stacks with assassin SA, etc. are the easy ones to spot, but there are some other synergies that're super powerful too that probably aren't intended. The problem with nerfing them though is you'll end up burning a lot more AP on useless things just to get the higher tier unique things, wasted APs was an issue pre pass but it's gotten worse already IMO.

Failedlegend
09-30-2013, 08:52 AM
The dev's obsession with multiclass. I'm a purist, out of both habit and principle, and the devs being obviously biased against pure classes

HA!!! Every time the community find any interesting multi-classes their promptly nerfed by the devs I can't count the amount of times my builds have obliterated because the devs decided something was OP or they deemed a previous known bug too hard to fix so just called it WAI (ie. Barbarian Druids...aka BarBearians not being able to use abilities like roaring and claing while raging) making my frankly already "flavour" build nigh unplayable.

Oh and do me a favor and stop acting like playing single-class characters should always be the best option and that it somehow makes you superior or a "Purist" we have enough Elitism around here already both options should be equally as rewarding.

TeacherSyn
09-30-2013, 09:41 AM
"and by L20 I shouldn't require Fire stance all the time"

Assuming you haven't hit level 20 on your Henshin yet- Please reevaluate after you do. All that you have in anything but EN after level 20 from the henshin tree is:
Competence Bonus to Crit
Void IV
Anti-Dark/Light
Some improved Ki regen
Lighting the Candle
Some fire resistance

Everything else you get is useless because your DCs will not be high enough to use your Ki abilities and your Ki is better spent elsewhere. There are no feats or anything you can take that will cause your Ki abilities to be a viable use of ki at this point, and you've essentially turned into a rogue acrobat with far less DPS and a tiny bit more utility.

The point of Henshin was to make a trash destroyer, but after 20, which is where you'll spend a large amount of time, running any sort of epics with a Henshin will make you feel like a gimpy acrobat, because at this point that's all you are.

Such hostility. I don't see attitude and ad hominem supporting your argument one bit.

As I've said before, playstyle makes the game. I'm doing just fine with my L18 Henshin Mystic. I destroy trash exceedingly well with a simple formula: Incinerating Wave, a Cast-Shadow strike, mass-neg-level a mob, Whirlwind Attack, repeat until dead. Works very well and doesn't take a lot of time at all. I've killed as well with the limited Ninja Spy enhancements of pre-U19 because the enhancements don't necessarily define a playstyle. It's our own gameplay that takes what offered in an enhancement and applies these limited powers to their maximum. Curse of the Void might seem useless to some. But when a party is looking at fighting 4 devils, one charm means we found a 7th party member. (I tend to make more.)

Your statements don't match to my results. I'm not the only player, so I'm sure others can relay their experiences. If you cannot or don't want to play that class, fine. Don't waste time attacking in a futile, raged manner--unless of course, that's your "playstyle" on the forums (in which case, you are doing it wrong--this is the Monk, not Barbarian thread.)

I know that Epic is a different game, but it's hardly impossible. It's called "Epic" for a reason. It's meant to challenge all of us. The arguments in this thread suggest but haven't proven that an Epic Mystic cannot survive. I'm just looking for that proof.

My bet is that there are many Epic Henshins that could speak up and disprove your arguments. But I suspect they're too busy to post here while having fun killing trolls online and not baiting them here as I think I might be.

I strongly suspect that an Epic Mystic is going to be just as gear-dependent as others. But--and this is a big one that your last comment did not mention--Epic Destinies play a big role. A Mystic with Legendary Dreadnought and certainly Grandmaster of Flowers (better, lots of Twists) should have better defenses befitting Epic quests and be a stronger trash-mover than ever.

I don't have my Mystic up there yet. I'll provide the thread with a few screenshots of successes as they will happen--if a few dozen other Mystics don't beat me to it first. There's no such thing as a "Easy" button to good gameplay.

TeacherSyn
09-30-2013, 09:51 AM
That's the only real aspect of the pass that irritated me: the dev's obsession with multiclass. I'm a purist, out of both habit and principle, and the devs being obviously biased against pure classes (as noted in several horrible capstones) puts me on edge. It's my policy that if a class cannot function perfectly fine as a pure class it is broken and needs to be fixed. Sure, some combinations are strong (like monkchers, which I despise, and artificer mechanics) but if such multiclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the pure class, something is wrong. There needs to be a serious incentive in the 18 and 20 core abilities in each class to make going pure a benefit, not a problem.

Understandable and I agree. Update 19 ended the concept of capstones as we know them. I think the Mystic got the appropriate one based on its design--the original Monk capstone. But yes, I think it could use some tweaking, too to be more attractive and useful. I'd argue, too, that reaching 20 now is a bit too anticlimatic.

I'm not much in multiclassing, either, for the same reasons. A good class should be able to do its job very well while holding a lot of versatility options. I know that a full Shintao is a tanking badass and a full Ninja is a slippery backstabbing stealth monster from my own experience. I'm optimistic that my Mystic at 20 shows a similar caliber (your argument for the whole thread).

We have a better diversity with Monks and U19, but as a whole, there's more tweaking to be done. I err to patience from the devs because they make a critically large number of changes in this one and we're really lucky that something isn't extremely broken as a result. I do think that the new enhancement are pigeonholing a bit. Why the bias to Earth Stance in Shintao? Couldn't other stances benefit?

Maelodic
09-30-2013, 11:56 AM
Such hostility. I don't see attitude and ad hominem supporting your argument one bit.

As I've said before, playstyle makes the game. I'm doing just fine with my L18 Henshin Mystic. I destroy trash exceedingly well with a simple formula: Incinerating Wave, a Cast-Shadow strike, mass-neg-level a mob, Whirlwind Attack, repeat until dead. Works very well and doesn't take a lot of time at all. I've killed as well with the limited Ninja Spy enhancements of pre-U19 because the enhancements don't necessarily define a playstyle. It's our own gameplay that takes what offered in an enhancement and applies these limited powers to their maximum. Curse of the Void might seem useless to some. But when a party is looking at fighting 4 devils, one charm means we found a 7th party member. (I tend to make more.)

Your statements don't match to my results. I'm not the only player, so I'm sure others can relay their experiences. If you cannot or don't want to play that class, fine. Don't waste time attacking in a futile, raged manner--unless of course, that's your "playstyle" on the forums (in which case, you are doing it wrong--this is the Monk, not Barbarian thread.)

I know that Epic is a different game, but it's hardly impossible. It's called "Epic" for a reason. It's meant to challenge all of us. The arguments in this thread suggest but haven't proven that an Epic Mystic cannot survive. I'm just looking for that proof.

My bet is that there are many Epic Henshins that could speak up and disprove your arguments. But I suspect they're too busy to post here while having fun killing trolls online and not baiting them here as I think I might be.

I strongly suspect that an Epic Mystic is going to be just as gear-dependent as others. But--and this is a big one that your last comment did not mention--Epic Destinies play a big role. A Mystic with Legendary Dreadnought and certainly Grandmaster of Flowers (better, lots of Twists) should have better defenses befitting Epic quests and be a stronger trash-mover than ever.

I don't have my Mystic up there yet. I'll provide the thread with a few screenshots of successes as they will happen--if a few dozen other Mystics don't beat me to it first. There's no such thing as a "Easy" button to good gameplay.

My intention was not to be hostile, nor to give any "attitude". It's not up to me how you hear my posts in your head, I'm just here for the discussion. I'm not upset.

Henshin works perfectly until endgame- I never said it didn't. "Gear dependent" is not how the mystic's ki attacks start working in epics. You essentially have to switch your character to a not-as-much-dps acrobat to continue to play at a level of normality- it's a major change in playstyle. Your incinerating wave will not do as much as a cleave and casting it will be a waste. The only thing you'll find yourself using, and mind you in situational circumstance at best, is Cauldron of Fire. The maximum amount of damage your incinerating wave will do, if it hits twice, is around 300 including spell power- but realistically, most EN/EH mobs will save against this, and so you're looking at 150-300 maximum. This costs 10 ki less than a Quivering Palm, which has a more reliable save, and one that can be boosted. Incinerating Wave/Ki Bolt/Cauldron of Fire are not in any magic school, and so even if you had a WIS score of 54, the wave would have a save of 57- though do note by having that WIS score by not pumping STR instead and not using handwraps, you're essentially a neg level and quivering palm machine. Adding stunning fist to the mix would waste a whole lot of AP you've spent in henshin, and one of the tier 5 abilities would be wasted. Without stunning fist, there is very little reason to add WIS unless you want to be fairly useless against bosses.

The things you are using are fine at the moment, more than fine, Henshin is a blast before endgame, but the need to change your entire build focus around after you hit that point is why it's so frustrating. When you get a DPS drop to use your Ki attacks (mind you, the core abilities are centered around these) and then you have to further drop your DPS to make them sort of itch, I see a problem there. It's not all about DPS, no, but when it's use a cleave or a wave, the cleave is free and much better in just about every single circumstance.

I love anti-dark and anti-light- that is really, really fun. And I can see how you're having fun with it because I do too, but the Ki attacks are what separates the Henshin from the other two tiers and makes it less pidgin-holed than the Ninja and the Shintao. All of the potential goes down the drain though, because you're using 2-tick un-metamagic'd firewall in epics that disrupts your main source of DPS.

HastyPudding
09-30-2013, 12:07 PM
HA!!! Every time the community find any interesting multi-classes their promptly nerfed by the devs I can't count the amount of times my builds have obliterated because the devs decided something was OP or they deemed a previous known bug too hard to fix so just called it WAI (ie. Barbarian Druids...aka BarBearians not being able to use abilities like roaring and claing while raging) making my frankly already "flavour" build nigh unplayable.

Oh and do me a favor and stop acting like playing single-class characters should always be the best option and that it somehow makes you superior or a "Purist" we have enough Elitism around here already both options should be equally as rewarding.

In no way did I say anything concerning pure classes being stronger, but there needs to be incentive in the level 18 and certainly the level 20 core abilities to warrant a pure class, and right now, there isn't for most of them. Adding 2 to a stat and some (usually) half-@ssed passive isn't doing much.



Such hostility. I don't see attitude and ad hominem supporting your argument one bit.

As I've said before, playstyle makes the game. I'm doing just fine with my L18 Henshin Mystic. I destroy trash exceedingly well with a simple formula: Incinerating Wave, a Cast-Shadow strike, mass-neg-level a mob, Whirlwind Attack, repeat until dead. Works very well and doesn't take a lot of time at all. I've killed as well with the limited Ninja Spy enhancements of pre-U19 because the enhancements don't necessarily define a playstyle. It's our own gameplay that takes what offered in an enhancement and applies these limited powers to their maximum. Curse of the Void might seem useless to some. But when a party is looking at fighting 4 devils, one charm means we found a 7th party member. (I tend to make more.)

Your statements don't match to my results. I'm not the only player, so I'm sure others can relay their experiences. If you cannot or don't want to play that class, fine. Don't waste time attacking in a futile, raged manner--unless of course, that's your "playstyle" on the forums (in which case, you are doing it wrong--this is the Monk, not Barbarian thread.)

I know that Epic is a different game, but it's hardly impossible. It's called "Epic" for a reason. It's meant to challenge all of us. The arguments in this thread suggest but haven't proven that an Epic Mystic cannot survive. I'm just looking for that proof.

My bet is that there are many Epic Henshins that could speak up and disprove your arguments. But I suspect they're too busy to post here while having fun killing trolls online and not baiting them here as I think I might be.

I strongly suspect that an Epic Mystic is going to be just as gear-dependent as others. But--and this is a big one that your last comment did not mention--Epic Destinies play a big role. A Mystic with Legendary Dreadnought and certainly Grandmaster of Flowers (better, lots of Twists) should have better defenses befitting Epic quests and be a stronger trash-mover than ever.

I don't have my Mystic up there yet. I'll provide the thread with a few screenshots of successes as they will happen--if a few dozen other Mystics don't beat me to it first. There's no such thing as a "Easy" button to good gameplay.

This is what Maelodic was referring to. You have a certain 'blind optimism' that, while endearing and productive, will be sorely crushed in epic levels.

Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, FVS, and druids are already having some difficulty getting their DC's to a 'good enough' level for high level epics. If that's the case that even the 'best' class for DC casting (wizard) is having a challenge with end-game DC's, then monks don't stand a chance in this arena when it comes to ki abilities. I can say that, playing on my epic characters in 25+ content, I've never seen a pure monk henshin or even a multiclass henshin that uses the fire/force ki abilities (other than void strike which has no save). Monks don't have the ability and item usage to increase their ki DC's that high; stunning fist/quivering palm are different in this aspect as they have items to use like stunning/sundering and combat masteries from items and epic destinies. They also don't have the spell focus feats, spell focus items, epic destiny bonuses, and singular focus on their key stat like casters do. They simply don't have the utility required for end-game DC's.

TeacherSyn
09-30-2013, 12:32 PM
In no way did I say anything concerning pure classes being stronger, but there needs to be incentive in the level 18 and certainly the level 20 core abilities to warrant a pure class, and right now, there isn't for most of them. Adding 2 to a stat and some (usually) half-@ssed passive isn't doing much.




This is what Maelodic was referring to. You have a certain 'blind optimism' that, while endearing and productive, will be sorely crushed in epic levels.

Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, FVS, and druids are already having some difficulty getting their DC's to a 'good enough' level for high level epics. If that's the case that even the 'best' class for DC casting (wizard) is having a challenge with end-game DC's, then monks don't stand a chance in this arena when it comes to ki abilities. I can say that, playing on my epic characters in 25+ content, I've never seen a pure monk henshin or even a multiclass henshin that uses the fire/force ki abilities (other than void strike which has no save). Monks don't have the ability and item usage to increase their ki DC's that high; stunning fist/quivering palm are different in this aspect as they have items to use like stunning/sundering and combat masteries from items and epic destinies. They also don't have the spell focus feats, spell focus items, epic destiny bonuses, and singular focus on their key stat like casters do. They simply don't have the utility required for end-game DC's.

I understand the importance of DCs: my ninja and tanker rely on high ones to survive. They both do OK or better in EE. EE is soul-crushing in itself but it really depends on your party and the quest. Some EEs are tougher than others. Try EE "Foundation of Discord" as a great example of how even the best will get their clock cleaned. That place is nasty.

One thing I miss in playing a Mystic is stunning. Stunning Blow and a staff is slower and far less effective. In that, yeah, I worry. Stopping a mob is one thing. A Monk has been generally good in stopping one at a time. A Mystic doesn't have that with its heroic skills, requiring an epic option. They do get a DC increase ability, but is it too little? I'm hoping you're wrong.

I like my blind optimism. I tend to make it work with results. :) But I suspect I play differently than some, so that's my normal.

TeacherSyn
09-30-2013, 12:35 PM
My intention was not to be hostile, nor to give any "attitude". It's not up to me how you hear my posts in your head, I'm just here for the discussion. I'm not upset.

Henshin works perfectly until endgame- I never said it didn't. "Gear dependent" is not how the mystic's ki attacks start working in epics. You essentially have to switch your character to a not-as-much-dps acrobat to continue to play at a level of normality- it's a major change in playstyle. Your incinerating wave will not do as much as a cleave and casting it will be a waste. The only thing you'll find yourself using, and mind you in situational circumstance at best, is Cauldron of Fire. The maximum amount of damage your incinerating wave will do, if it hits twice, is around 300 including spell power- but realistically, most EN/EH mobs will save against this, and so you're looking at 150-300 maximum. This costs 10 ki less than a Quivering Palm, which has a more reliable save, and one that can be boosted. Incinerating Wave/Ki Bolt/Cauldron of Fire are not in any magic school, and so even if you had a WIS score of 54, the wave would have a save of 57- though do note by having that WIS score by not pumping STR instead and not using handwraps, you're essentially a neg level and quivering palm machine. Adding stunning fist to the mix would waste a whole lot of AP you've spent in henshin, and one of the tier 5 abilities would be wasted. Without stunning fist, there is very little reason to add WIS unless you want to be fairly useless against bosses.

The things you are using are fine at the moment, more than fine, Henshin is a blast before endgame, but the need to change your entire build focus around after you hit that point is why it's so frustrating. When you get a DPS drop to use your Ki attacks (mind you, the core abilities are centered around these) and then you have to further drop your DPS to make them sort of itch, I see a problem there. It's not all about DPS, no, but when it's use a cleave or a wave, the cleave is free and much better in just about every single circumstance.

I love anti-dark and anti-light- that is really, really fun. And I can see how you're having fun with it because I do too, but the Ki attacks are what separates the Henshin from the other two tiers and makes it less pidgin-holed than the Ninja and the Shintao. All of the potential goes down the drain though, because you're using 2-tick un-metamagic'd firewall in epics that disrupts your main source of DPS.

Good points. I apologize for any edginess. As I hit 20 and beyond, I'll see if I experience what you predict and drop back into this frame of the conversation.

Failedlegend
09-30-2013, 12:38 PM
Some sort of Monk/Fire Savant might work...too bad there's no force Savant it would work much better than fire...anyways say Monk13/Sorc6/Rogue1 Q-Staff User (Acrobat Q-staff speed is tier 1) Dex/Wis based..Wis primary. Sorc spells used primarily for buffs and levels primarily for access to full fire savant tree and Core 2

Spells:
1 - Jump, Exp Retreat, DSD, Feather Fall
2 - Blur, Invis (+MS Skill)
3 - Haste

I dunno just a thought.

ED wise either GMoF with some DI Twists or the other way around.

Not sure what race would be best but I doubt between Henshin and Fire Savant there will be many APs left for racial enhancements to likely Human for the Extra feat and Skill pt.

rimble
10-09-2013, 01:12 PM
Henshin works perfectly until endgame- I never said it didn't. "Gear dependent" is not how the mystic's ki attacks start working in epics. You essentially have to switch your character to a not-as-much-dps acrobat to continue to play at a level of normality- it's a major change in playstyle. Your incinerating wave will not do as much as a cleave and casting it will be a waste. The only thing you'll find yourself using, and mind you in situational circumstance at best, is Cauldron of Fire. The maximum amount of damage your incinerating wave will do, if it hits twice, is around 300 including spell power- but realistically, most EN/EH mobs will save against this, and so you're looking at 150-300 maximum. This costs 10 ki less than a Quivering Palm, which has a more reliable save, and one that can be boosted. Incinerating Wave/Ki Bolt/Cauldron of Fire are not in any magic school, and so even if you had a WIS score of 54, the wave would have a save of 57- though do note by having that WIS score by not pumping STR instead and not using handwraps, you're essentially a neg level and quivering palm machine. Adding stunning fist to the mix would waste a whole lot of AP you've spent in henshin, and one of the tier 5 abilities would be wasted. Without stunning fist, there is very little reason to add WIS unless you want to be fairly useless against bosses.

So, I was considering a crazy max Wis DC-based Monk. Henshin of course. Before I took the plunge I put together a spreadsheet outlining my DCs...it was very eye opening.

With a 50 Wis, which may not be MAX, but is pretty **** high...some real deficiencies are highlighted (I probably got some of these a little wrong):
Ki Bolt, Reflex, DC 50
Incinerating Wave, Reflex, DC 50
Cauldron of Flame, Reflex, DC 50
Various Finishing Moves, Fort / Ref / Will, DC 53

That's it?! PLUS the Henshin ones are Reflex so will be Evaded...? Ugh.

Ok, well, I'll have to be GMoF for those Ki blast ability thingies too:
Orchid Blossom, Reflex, DC 48
Drifting Lotus, Reflex, DC 48
A Scattering of Petals, Fort, DC 58
Everything is Nothing, Fort, DC 58

Ok, cool...ASoP and EiN I can work with of course...but ****, really?! Another two low DC Reflex abilities? For crying out loud...

Why would I bother when I could:
Quivering Palm, Fort, DC 64 (with an Improved Sunder prep for +3 more DC)
Stunning Fist, Fort, DC 68 (maybe with Improved Sunder for +3 DC)
Kukan-Do, Will, DC 59 (with only a 20 Cha)
Unbalancing Strike, Ref, DC 64 (Sneak Attacks! Works on bosses!)

Yeah, I'm really gonna need a solid way to get another +10 DC on those weak abilities before I can consider using them.

I commend Spencerian for actually playing it through, but I looked at those numbers and just had to walk away...

HastyPudding
10-09-2013, 08:34 PM
So, I was considering a crazy max Wis DC-based Monk. Henshin of course. Before I took the plunge I put together a spreadsheet outlining my DCs...it was very eye opening.

With a 50 Wis, which may not be MAX, but is pretty **** high...some real deficiencies are highlighted (I probably got some of these a little wrong):
Ki Bolt, Reflex, DC 50
Incinerating Wave, Reflex, DC 50
Cauldron of Flame, Reflex, DC 50
Various Finishing Moves, Fort / Ref / Will, DC 53

That's it?! PLUS the Henshin ones are Reflex so will be Evaded...? Ugh.

Ok, well, I'll have to be GMoF for those Ki blast ability thingies too:
Orchid Blossom, Reflex, DC 48
Drifting Lotus, Reflex, DC 48
A Scattering of Petals, Fort, DC 58
Everything is Nothing, Fort, DC 58

Ok, cool...ASoP and EiN I can work with of course...but ****, really?! Another two low DC Reflex abilities? For crying out loud...

Why would I bother when I could:
Quivering Palm, Fort, DC 64 (with an Improved Sunder prep for +3 more DC)
Stunning Fist, Fort, DC 68 (maybe with Improved Sunder for +3 DC)
Kukan-Do, Will, DC 59 (with only a 20 Cha)
Unbalancing Strike, Ref, DC 64 (Sneak Attacks! Works on bosses!)

Yeah, I'm really gonna need a solid way to get another +10 DC on those weak abilities before I can consider using them.

I commend Spencerian for actually playing it through, but I looked at those numbers and just had to walk away...

I saw this issue at level 12, even when I just got incinerating wave and walked out into searing heights just to see what it did. Even should you be able to get that 50 DC, we all know that's not going to cut it for an evocation or enchantment DC on a wizard, let alone a monk, and super-specializing like this to benefit only 3 abilities? That's going to gimp your dps output severely. A wizard or sorcerer super-specializing in DC's functions perfectly, a monk does not because it's still a melee dps class.

After looking at the figures, I honestly don't see how the devs can save this tree without a major overhaul.

Schmackdown
11-25-2013, 02:49 PM
Nobody has tried Henshin with a handwrap build?

You can take 41 points in the tree without a single staff enhancement. I don't get much out of the Elemental Words investment or the meditation bits, but otherwise everything is useful or at least amusing. I don't consider the ki/spell or staff offerings in the tree disappointing because I don't consider them at all.

Regardless of philosophy I try to use the finishers as much as possible, as it's just a matter of rearranging DPS strikes to ready them. Henshin opens that up substantially by making all philosophy finishers available.

I like Henshin on the dark side, as not only does SCEWL work as awesomely as it sounds, but because I use half to two-thirds of the Dark finishers on a regular basis. I usually only prep Aligning the Heavens on the light side, and I can easily find the time to slot in a SCEWL between Unbalancing Strike and Ocean IV once a minute. And SCEWL is ridiculously easy to use- just crack it off before a target dies and whomp, 100 HP + your healing amp every six seconds or so. Your buddies as well. Usually a far better healing method than the lightside finisher, which can be prepped by a darksider now.

I have never been a fan of Void IV for the vorpal effect, but I used to like III and IV for the DPS strikes. From what I can tell it now gets the same treatment as Touch of Death, treating it differently than an elemental ki attack or stun. I have never seen more than one big force proc on-screen, though it might be in the logs somewhere. A disappointment overall.

I do not find any of the HE racial options appealing, so for the time being I am still able to max out both No Mercy and Deft Strikes while devoting enough resources to get to Serenity.

What I find I miss most is the extension to the dodge cap from Meditation of War. I regularly used all of the Shintao stuff like K-D, smite, banish and the jades, but I think that was just because they were available.

As mentioned previously, passive Ki regen on a Henshin can get to +5 or 6. When in quests I usually see this as +4. I was surprised to find that this actually made a palpable difference when manipulating ki, and I could stay out of Fire stance more often.

I would highly recommend any gTWFer with the plat and inclination to give Henshin a spin. The Light/Dark thing alone can be pretty fun if you're in to the finishers.