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Catteras
09-09-2013, 05:48 AM
I saw in another post in this forum people referring to a sorc Water Elemental form. What in the world is this? The only references to elemental forms I can find are about druids. I don't see anything in enhancements or class description for sorcs...

This is the thread where they are talking about it:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423331-Why-no-Earth-end-game

Sierim
09-09-2013, 06:00 AM
Each of the sorcerer savants has an elemental form as part of its capstone (Core Abilities, minimum level 20 sorcerer, 40 points spent in tree). Here's an example summary from the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Earth_Savant_enhancements#Core_Abilities).



Icon Enhancement Elemental Apotheosis Earth
Elemental Apotheosis: Earth: Activate this ability to transform into an Earth Elemental.

While in elemental form, you gain +100% fortification. If you are a Warforged, you are no longer considered a Living Construct, and so are immune to Repair spells, but can be healed normally by Positive Energy spells.

While in Earth Elemental form, you also gain an additional +20 Acid Spell Power, +2% Acid Spell Critical Chance, and a +1 bonus to caster level and max caster level for Acid and Earth spells, but your air, fire, and water spells have a -3 penalty to caster level and max caster level. You also gain a +10 racial bonus to acid resistance, +25 Physical Resistance Rating, and a -10 penalty to electrical resistance. While in Elemental Form, your spells also cost an additional 10% Spell Points to cast.




The other savant elemental forms get similar benefits and penalties.

JOTMON
09-09-2013, 07:37 AM
If you are a Warforged, you are no longer considered a Living Construct, and so are immune to Repair spells, but can be healed normally by Positive Energy spells.


.. Found this out the hard way,..All the forms screw WF over
The Devs decided to sneak in the nuance of conveting WF into fleshy form...

This is all very similar to the Pale Master... in form, cant repair... ??? isnt dead wood still wood... and yet a dead PM can still be poisoned...
Elemental's are immune to poison and dont breath... did those traits carry over to the Sorc... no...

All this was is some back door method for the Dev's to further penalize WF Sorc's.
the +20 LR doesnt address the screwover to WF and allow race changes...

mezzorco
09-09-2013, 06:08 PM
the +20 LR doesnt address the screwover to WF and allow race changes...

Hey, it's a toggle, toggle it off and repair yourself. Or, better, don't toggle it on.

Wizza
09-10-2013, 02:40 AM
Elemental's are immune to poison and dont breath... did those traits carry over to the Sorc... no...


They actually got the immunity to poison.


Hey, it's a toggle, toggle it off and repair yourself. Or, better, don't toggle it on.

Wasting 50 sp every time to just repair is not an option.

Saravis
09-10-2013, 03:14 AM
the +20 LR doesnt address the screwover to WF and allow race changes...

What would you even change to? Sorcs don't have wand/scroll mastery, so fleshy healing has been nerfed.

darthhento
09-10-2013, 05:31 AM
What would you even change to? Sorcs don't have wand/scroll mastery, so fleshy healing has been nerfed.

Two words: Twist Cocoon

JOTMON
09-11-2013, 11:12 AM
What would you even change to? Sorcs don't have wand/scroll mastery, so fleshy healing has been nerfed.

Something that doesnt get -2CHA and has to choose between heal amp or repair amp and can actually maintain full benefit from being in stance... hence.. any other race.

For the most part WF is fine for levelling and TR lives, the endgame penalties are what screw WF...

WF can take poison/disease/stat damage that isnt repairable.. needs healing or restoration...
WF PRR still isnt right.
WF now have to chosse between repair amp and heal amp
Sorc's no longer have wand/scroll mastery.
spell power, repair skills require INT investment
Wiz has much more access to power than ever before.

Drow/Human Wizard PM looks much more appealing.

Kayla93
09-12-2013, 03:41 AM
Something that doesnt get -2CHA and has to choose between heal amp or repair amp and can actually maintain full benefit from being in stance... hence.. any other race.

For the most part WF is fine for levelling and TR lives, the endgame penalties are what screw WF...

WF can take poison/disease/stat damage that isnt repairable.. needs healing or restoration...
WF PRR still isnt right.
WF now have to chosse between repair amp and heal amp
Sorc's no longer have wand/scroll mastery.
spell power, repair skills require INT investment
Wiz has much more access to power than ever before.

Drow/Human Wizard PM looks much more appealing.

Well I am Drow Wizzard and you know what...
I can take poison/stat dmg in undead and need to leave form to use lesser resto - because it doesnt work on undeads.
I am more vulnerable to light dmg - which at least isnt bug like above.
To take scroll/wand mastery Id need to invest point into useless want DC.
If I get hit by DW I cant heal myself witout reentering form.
I cant wear absorption items bcs they eat my healing ...
I could be killed by my party members and in public.. Maybe I can be killed now too - Yeah its funny. First 3 times. Later rather not.
To heal myself I use neg. energy - Heal skill - which is not my class skill so I loose 20+ spellpower on skillpoints only to my healing - about the same sorcs lose about int/cha difference in spellcraft.
Neg. Burst is way worse than reconstruct.
Ah - and if bcs of some idiots or mobs causing stat dmg I need to leave form and reenter often not only I lose ton of sp - around 100sp one reenter, but also form has CD.. So Im left with no healing capability for some time. Yay...

At least we have better enhancements :P. But thats about it.

JOTMON
09-12-2013, 08:14 AM
Well I am Drow Wizzard and you know what...
I can take poison/stat dmg in undead and need to leave form to use lesser resto - because it doesnt work on undeads.
I am more vulnerable to light dmg - which at least isnt bug like above.
To take scroll/wand mastery Id need to invest point into useless want DC.
If I get hit by DW I cant heal myself witout reentering form.
I cant wear absorption items bcs they eat my healing ...
I could be killed by my party members and in public.. Maybe I can be killed now too - Yeah its funny. First 3 times. Later rather not.
To heal myself I use neg. energy - Heal skill - which is not my class skill so I loose 20+ spellpower on skillpoints only to my healing - about the same sorcs lose about int/cha difference in spellcraft.
Neg. Burst is way worse than reconstruct.
Ah - and if bcs of some idiots or mobs causing stat dmg I need to leave form and reenter often not only I lose ton of sp - around 100sp one reenter, but also form has CD.. So Im left with no healing capability for some time. Yay...

At least we have better enhancements :P. But thats about it.

To be fair these are Known bugs that will get fixed.
-Deathward screwing up form.
-Killed in public area's by divines is annoying.....currently you can report attackers and they may get to enjoy a forced vacation.


Known issues that Dev's are still screwing PM's over on
-can take poison/stat dmg in undead and need to leave form to use lesser resto - because it doesnt work on undeads.
~restoration should work whether you are dead or not.. no good reason for it to only work out of form..if Poison/stat can affect you then restoration should as well~
-I cant wear absorption items bcs they eat my healing ...
~I hate this.. and Dev's have still not adressed it~
-Burst is way worse than reconstruct.
~dead wood WF can't reconstruct either, WF take stat/poison damage and cant repair them.. can only heal/restore it.. another stupid mechanic that Dev's have ignored~

Not a bug
To take scroll/wand mastery Id need to invest point into useless want DC.
~you still have the option~
To heal myself I use neg. energy - Heal skill - which is not my class skill so I loose 20+ spellpower on skillpoints only to my healing - about the same sorcs lose about int/cha difference in spellcraft.
~doubtful that you lose anything vs a Sorc since INT is your primary invested stat you should have lots of skill points to spare.. a sorc.. not so much..

My point is it is stupid to have a capstone form penalize a race... it is WF racism....

oradafu
09-12-2013, 08:54 AM
My point is it is stupid to have a capstone form penalize a race... it is WF racism....

A p2p Race at that. And being a WF has rapidly gone down hill since MOTU was released...and it doesn't appear the Devs are finished hampering the race before improving it. Although with all the changes over the last year or so, I doubt there are any Devs currently working in DDO that want to improve WF.

supott
09-12-2013, 09:29 AM
i feel Sorc capstone sucks. 10% more SP to cast spells?? only +20 Spellpower?? And +1 Caster level.. I liked the +20% damage they had before. That had a major noticeable difference.

Kayla93
09-12-2013, 09:58 AM
My point is it is stupid to have a capstone form penalize a race... it is WF racism....

It may be comforting that Its not like sorcerer's capstone was worthy it before. Not worthy it also now but its not a big loss compared to what was before. . Its sad but true. Better to go 18sorc/2pal or sth. Its one of those few classes where capstones provides practically nothing.

About PM screw - true... theyre going to fix SOME things... soon TM ofc :P or soonish if u prefer xD.
But next update it will be all over again.
First judgment problem, then wail of banshee not working for sooo long - it was "wail 1 mob or just wail for cool visual efect bcs spell do nothing" and now this :P.
PMs are getting uncool suprises over and over :P. at least I like wizies enhancements xD But shhh before they screw it over.

kned225
09-12-2013, 10:12 AM
Hey, it's a toggle, toggle it off and repair yourself. Or, better, don't toggle it on.

This is the answer. I simply dont use the meh elemental form. I find the benefits of a quickened 700hp reconstruct far outweigh the form

And the capstone still gives +2 cha, +1cl/mcl, +10spl pwr to your chosen element out of form

For my money, u still cant beat the huge hps and healing of a wf

jalont
09-12-2013, 10:25 AM
.. Found this out the hard way,..All the forms screw WF over
The Devs decided to sneak in the nuance of conveting WF into fleshy form...

This is all very similar to the Pale Master... in form, cant repair... ??? isnt dead wood still wood... and yet a dead PM can still be poisoned...
Elemental's are immune to poison and dont breath... did those traits carry over to the Sorc... no...

All this was is some back door method for the Dev's to further penalize WF Sorc's.
the +20 LR doesnt address the screwover to WF and allow race changes...

Complaining about "further nerfs" to the most stunningly OP combination in the game is a tad bit silly.

jalont
09-12-2013, 10:27 AM
Something that doesnt get -2CHA and has to choose between heal amp or repair amp and can actually maintain full benefit from being in stance... hence.. any other race.

For the most part WF is fine for levelling and TR lives, the endgame penalties are what screw WF...

WF can take poison/disease/stat damage that isnt repairable.. needs healing or restoration...
WF PRR still isnt right.
WF now have to chosse between repair amp and heal amp
Sorc's no longer have wand/scroll mastery.
spell power, repair skills require INT investment
Wiz has much more access to power than ever before.

Drow/Human Wizard PM looks much more appealing.

This is absolutely false. A WF Shirdai Sorc went from being the gold standard endgame build to the second best endgame build behind a PM/AM Shiradi hybrid. What game are you playing?

kned225
09-12-2013, 10:36 AM
the most stunningly OP combination in the game

Not to derail, but this is outdated. There are plenty of strong builds out there nowadays that include excellent self-healing

era42
09-12-2013, 10:46 AM
i feel Sorc capstone sucks. 10% more SP to cast spells?? only +20 Spellpower?? And +1 Caster level.. I liked the +20% damage they had before. That had a major noticeable difference.

You do realize +20 spellpower equals +20% damage? The old +20% damage was never over other bonuses, but just for base damage. The new way of displaying it just highlights how bad it actually is.

jalont
09-12-2013, 10:50 AM
Not to derail, but this is outdated. There are plenty of strong builds out there nowadays that include excellent self-healing

And none of them level as quickly as a WF sorc and none of them are a Shiradi Sorc. There are plenty of viable and strong builds. None of them equal the power of a WF sorc in endgame or while leveling, save a PM/AM hybrid in Shiradi, but that was due to a massive buff, not a nerf to WF sorcs.

supott
09-12-2013, 11:05 AM
You do realize +20 spellpower equals +20% damage? The old +20% damage was never over other bonuses, but just for base damage. The new way of displaying it just highlights how bad it actually is.

oh ic.. didn't look at it that way.. probably when i had a sorc before there were less sources of damage amplification that i knew about so that increase from lvl 19 to 20 seemed like a big deal.. my thinking now is we have spellcraft, clickie bonuses, and after reading the thread about the guy who got his Spellpower up to 880..

kned225
09-12-2013, 11:15 AM
And none of them level as quickly as a WF sorc and none of them are a Shiradi Sorc. There are plenty of viable and strong builds. None of them equal the power of a WF sorc in endgame or while leveling, save a PM/AM hybrid in Shiradi, but that was due to a massive buff, not a nerf to WF sorcs.

Agreed that its a very strong combination, but "stunningly OP" implies a severe imbalance in need of change. Simply not the case anymore, especially in epics

Wf shiradi sorcs arent powerful because theyre wf. Any other race would get many benefits as a shiradi sorc over wf (the list is almost endless) and still be able to acquire excellent self healing