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Fefnir_2011
09-08-2013, 03:08 PM
Now, I know this probably isn't optimal, but I'm looking at this build for a few reasons:

I have a few sorc lives to do on my Favored Soul, and I'm not really interested in building a battlecaster since it'd mean building new GS.
I solo pretty much exclusively, only grouping when I feel I need to.
I love trap bonus. Even if it slows me down, I enjoy the feeling I get from seeing that bonus in my XP log.
I'm currently leveling a toon without evasion for the first time in a while, and I hate feeling limited by a low reflex save and inability to avoid trap/caster damage.

So, I'm thinking Warforged 18 Sorcerer/2 Rogue, aimed at high survivability at all levels from 1-20. I'll be Fire/Acid savant in early levels, swapping to Acid/Water later on.

Stats(36 pt)
STR 12
DEX 8
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 6
CHA 16 (levelups here, of course)

Feat List
1 Insightful Reflexes
3 Maximize
6 Empower
9 Quicken
12 Heighten
15 SF: Conjuration
18 GSF: Conjuration

Skills
DD, Search, Concentration
W/ tome and 2nd rogue level add: Spellcraft, Repair

My main questions for you are:

will I be able to hit a high enough reflex for it to actually matter?

Relatedly, should I consider 2 paladin, even though it will hurt my casting ability?


Is there anything I'm missing out on by choosing 2 rogue instead of 2 monk? I don't really care for the melee ability, and the stances seem kind of useless to a sorc.
Will I miss UMD? Since I can self-heal, I don't see any reason for it other than maybe Raise Dead scrolls, which only matters when I'm not soloing. Also, restricted race items are being replaced for the most part with the cursed and masterful craftsmanship items, anyway.
Will I need many points in Repair? I figure I'll be able to self-heal with Recon pretty thoroughly regardless.
Is there something I'm missing stat spread/skill/feat wise?

Clatterfist
09-08-2013, 06:08 PM
Given that you're basically trying to mix oil and water here, I think you've thought it out and made the necessary compromises. My concern would be that your reflex save won't be high enough, which negate most of the benefit of doing this outlandish thing. Unfortunately, I don't believe there's an easy fix for this: taking another two non-sorc levels for paladinhood will hurt your spellcasting even more.

I also think you'll have a lot of different needs to fit on to your gear, but those demands are easier to meet since they brought in the new augment system.

If you were willing to settle for evasion but no trap skills, then going the monk route is more viable out of the box. You get two bonus feats that you could spend on Luck of Heroes and Lightning Reflexes for +3 to reflex saves; you can enter Ocean Stance for another bonus; you can learn The Way of the Clever Monkey; and you get other miscellaneous survival perks, like a bit of extra AC and some free Dodge. You'd have more hit points and a much higher fortitude save, too. It also has the potential to be at least mildly compatible with your magical powers via Henshin Mystic, though you'd have to maintain an interest in fire magic. You could even pick up one of Elemental Words strikes that increases vulnerability to your element of choice, if you felt that might be useful.

Fefnir_2011
09-09-2013, 01:41 PM
Given that you're basically trying to mix oil and water here, I think you've thought it out and made the necessary compromises. My concern would be that your reflex save won't be high enough, which negate most of the benefit of doing this outlandish thing. Unfortunately, I don't believe there's an easy fix for this: taking another two non-sorc levels for paladinhood will hurt your spellcasting even more.

I also think you'll have a lot of different needs to fit on to your gear, but those demands are easier to meet since they brought in the new augment system.

If you were willing to settle for evasion but no trap skills, then going the monk route is more viable out of the box. You get two bonus feats that you could spend on Luck of Heroes and Lightning Reflexes for +3 to reflex saves; you can enter Ocean Stance for another bonus; you can learn The Way of the Clever Monkey; and you get other miscellaneous survival perks, like a bit of extra AC and some free Dodge. You'd have more hit points and a much higher fortitude save, too. It also has the potential to be at least mildly compatible with your magical powers via Henshin Mystic, though you'd have to maintain an interest in fire magic. You could even pick up one of Elemental Words strikes that increases vulnerability to your element of choice, if you felt that might be useful.

That's the best case I've heard yet for taking monk over rogue on a sorc; I've seen that monk splash is more common, but no one ever really explains it. That's convincing enough for me to try monk this life instead. It is only one life, after all, and I can always experiment more on the other two.

Two things I was wondering about though: is there some sort of threshold chart for reflex saves that shows what's actually meaningful at each level? or is it hard to pin down? The other was, is it possible to take Adept of Forms as a monk bonus feat? It feels like a waste to take toughness just because I have no other choices.

voodoogroves
09-09-2013, 02:00 PM
Plenty of folks on big TR trains go Rogue/Sorc. That said, some don't bother w/ the 2nd Rogue level as it slows them down.

supott
09-09-2013, 02:57 PM
i am doing the same this life on one character, except no insightful reflexes and put dex afair.

Like the above comment, i had a PM who i never took the last rogue level because i found i didn't need it. But that was a PM with higher reflex. I will play by ear when to take the 2nd rogue level with this Sorc, or not at all.. Reflex barely makes it but we'll see. I don't think UMD is fittable. I dont think i took it either. Don't lose much. Going Monk or Rogue was also a decision. I took Rogue to be safer. My thinking was there might be traps i wouldn't be able to fly through or evade and disarming is the only choice.

If i were to LR him when he reaches cap, i would probably splash 2 Pal. Comparing to Monk/FVS/Rogue/Pal, i think i like Pal the best even though i have never tried them yet. (I am stuck in Draconic though so FVS won't do me good as no shiradi on this character). Rogue mainly just to get me past heroic elites traps. Epic i don't aim to solo EE.

Fefnir_2011
09-10-2013, 06:23 AM
Plenty of folks on big TR trains go Rogue/Sorc. That said, some don't bother w/ the 2nd Rogue level as it slows them down.

I don't think I've ever seen that before. I think that makes more sense for a wiz/rogue, since you have Insightful Reflexes anyway and it's nice to have Wail when you're grinding at 18. I think I might do that on my remaining wizzie lives; I ended up lessering out my rogue levels after the enh pass because I felt like my spell damage was lackluster and Circle of Death just wasn't cutting it.


i am doing the same this life on one character, except no insightful reflexes and put dex afair.

Like the above comment, i had a PM who i never took the last rogue level because i found i didn't need it. But that was a PM with higher reflex. I will play by ear when to take the 2nd rogue level with this Sorc, or not at all.. Reflex barely makes it but we'll see. I don't think UMD is fittable. I dont think i took it either. Don't lose much. Going Monk or Rogue was also a decision. I took Rogue to be safer. My thinking was there might be traps i wouldn't be able to fly through or evade and disarming is the only choice.

If i were to LR him when he reaches cap, i would probably splash 2 Pal. Comparing to Monk/FVS/Rogue/Pal, i think i like Pal the best even though i have never tried them yet. (I am stuck in Draconic though so FVS won't do me good as no shiradi on this character). Rogue mainly just to get me past heroic elites traps. Epic i don't aim to solo EE.

The only reason I thought of using IR is because you're starved for skill points on the sorc levels, and it puts all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.

I've seen a fair amount of discussion about soloing EE and otherwise at cap on sorc multiclasses, but nothing really on soloing to cap. It may be easy to get there on a sorc, but it's nice to make it as easy as possible.

except for spells like disintegrate, spell damage can be averted with enough resist energy or protection from energy, which you should always have access to as an arcane anyway. It's places like the force traps in VoN3 (don't like having to make a hire eat it just for that one lever) or the force traps in Litany (don't like having to use a cake just to get through my Elite run) that make me want evasion and a high reflex. Likewise, Tomb of the Shadow Knight and that delicious bonus xp at every quest to cap (without having to use a gold seal) makes me crave rogue levels. I'll play it by ear though, like you were saying, and see how I feel about a second monk level. i have 2 more sorc lives after this on this toon, so I have plenty of room to experiment.

Tuffgar
10-07-2013, 06:44 AM
This is something I've been really interested in as well. The only time I've ever played a sorc build was back before Artificer existed and I was really liking the idea of the Tukaw style build. I also played a Pale Master Wiz/2rog life and enjoyed the caster style of play just as much. I've just finished up a melee life as an Arti Juggernaut(which is the same basic idea as the old Tukaw) and now I'm looking at doing a sorc life.

How much does having the 2 monk levels really hurt sorc if all you're aiming at is a levelling build for TRing, and NOT a fully optimized end-game build? I'm one of those players that really REALLY likes to have evasion, and feel crippled without it. And would throwing in 2 pally levels for ******** saves be worth looking at for a caster build?

Clatterfist
10-07-2013, 07:48 AM
This is something I've been really interested in as well. The only time I've ever played a sorc build was back before Artificer existed and I was really liking the idea of the Tukaw style build. I also played a Pale Master Wiz/2rog life and enjoyed the caster style of play just as much. I've just finished up a melee life as an Arti Juggernaut(which is the same basic idea as the old Tukaw) and now I'm looking at doing a sorc life.

How much does having the 2 monk levels really hurt sorc if all you're aiming at is a levelling build for TRing, and NOT a fully optimized end-game build? I'm one of those players that really REALLY likes to have evasion, and feel crippled without it. And would throwing in 2 pally levels for ******** saves be worth looking at for a caster build?

I'd recommend the full-on warforged sorcerer experience. I severely doubt you'll miss evasion as much as you think you will if you choose to play a pure sorcerer who can heal himself. We're talking fast, big self heals backed up by a gigantic tank of spellpoints and massive area damage. I wouldn't water that down merely to satisfy an established habit, and I encourage you not to either!

Still, to answer your question, I'd say that the delay of spellcasting and accumulation of caster levels actually hurts more during the levelling process than it does in the later stages, when you've already got a stable of strong spells and plenty of base dice with which to play. The time you get your first level three damage spell is a defining moment... delaying it two levels is uncomfortable, delaying it four is downright harsh.

Tuffgar
10-07-2013, 02:46 PM
Hmm....I'm mostly a solo+hire player. There are many quests I just run through a lot of the content. I KNOW where the traps are, but I kind of like being able to just ignore them(except on elite of course, where that's a quick death). I've never been able to time traps correctly, even though I have an excellent connection with very little latency and a good framerate. I also don't care much for caster enemies, and enjoy being able to evade most of their damage.

I think giving up evasion entirely isn't something I'm going to be able to do. It's too ingrained into my preferred playstyle. Having said that, I'm actually REALLY interested in the differences between the 2 rog and 2 monk builds. Seems like the Rog build wouldn't be quite as effective as the wiz version, due to lacking that strong INT synergy between classes, while monk would work decently well, being able to maintain centered through staves and robes.

Clatterfist
10-07-2013, 03:49 PM
Just a couple of little extra morsels for thought on the whole subject.

First, it's possible to get evasion on a sorcerer in a very limited fashion via the active monk past life feat. It may be too limited to suit anyone's purposes, but it does exist and so might be worth a quick mention.

Second, there's always the possibility of taking artificer levels for trap skils. It'd be a weird thing to do to be sure, but while we're in weird territory, why not examine the options? Just 1 level gives you trap skill access, UMD as a pseudo-class skill, scroll knowledge to back that up, a potential net gain on spell points should your Intelligence reach decent levels, medium armour and shield proficiencies should you decide you want to fight the ASF, and the "enchant weapons" spell for higher implement bonuses. The enhancements on offer aren't bad, either - Arcanotechnician has Wand and Scroll Mastery available in tier one, Energy of Creation for up to 90 additional spell points, and a Spell Critical option that boosts electric, fire and force. You even get 1 USP for each point spent in the tree, and you can spend as few points as you can spare without wasting anything. Battle Engineer is less compelling for a one level character like this, but Field Engineer is Tier One and gives you Concentration bonuses alongside your Disable Device and Open Locks - appropriate or what? I'll leave the possibilities of deeper splashes to any curious reader. Just a notion to play around with.

AtomicMew
10-08-2013, 12:34 AM
I solo pretty much exclusively, only grouping when I feel I need to.If you solo a lot, that's an even better reason not to play this split. Play a split that is not as gimp, and you'll have a better experience overall even if you miss out on a few chests.

will I be able to hit a high enough reflex for it to actually matter?Realistically, no. It's possible, but only with extreme investment.

Relatedly, should I consider 2 paladin, even though it will hurt my casting ability?For a new player, I would suggest an 18/2 FvS for the real sorc experience. :)

Is there anything I'm missing out on by choosing 2 rogue instead of 2 monk? I don't really care for the melee ability, and the stances seem kind of useless to a sorc. There is quite a bit you are missing out on. Two feats, extra saves with water stance, better enhancements.

Will I miss UMD? Since I can self-heal, I don't see any reason for it other than maybe Raise Dead scrolls, which only matters when I'm not soloing. Also, restricted race items are being replaced for the most part with the cursed and masterful craftsmanship items, anyway.On a warforged, no. The only thing I use UMD for is raise dead scrolls.

Will I need many points in Repair? I figure I'll be able to self-heal with Recon pretty thoroughly regardless.It's not super essential.

Is there something I'm missing stat spread/skill/feat wise?Perform for sonic spellpower.

Wizza
10-08-2013, 04:22 AM
Perform for sonic spellpower.

Why would he need Perform on a leveling build?

AtomicMew
10-08-2013, 04:25 AM
Why would he need Perform on a leveling build?

20-28 is leveling too.

Wizza
10-08-2013, 04:42 AM
20-28 is leveling too.

Cmon, you know better than this. When you "have to do a few lives as sorc" you are not taking 20-28.

Now, if we are talking about "something else happening 1-20", then Perform is a good choice.

Tuffgar
10-19-2013, 06:15 AM
Been leveling following the shiradi 'scorcher' build: 2FvS 18sorc. Although I modified it for 1FvS/2Monk/10sorc as of this posting. I'm actually kind of kicking myself for taking the FvS level early, since it's pretty useless while leveling. Really wishing I'd waited on that until much later, but it's not exactly hurting me too badly either. Sorc still zergs through content like a beast.