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Laeelin
09-07-2013, 05:16 PM
I originally was planning on making a pure bard spellsinger, but when I started looking for ways to contribute to the DPS I decided that going AA looked fun. The problem is that the feats are so very tight. I'm trying to decide if it's worth staying pure. The biggest advantage to staying pure is getting the wonderful spell heal. I need to be an elf (dex for bow damage and AA). The feats are very very tight. If I go pure I think that giving up maximize is the best choice because it cant be used with heal anyway. If it's to important for the other heals (Mass Cure Moderate I'm looking at you!) I think that IC: Ranged is the next best feat to give up.

Ranged Feats (6): Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, IC: Ranged
Healing Feats (2): Quicken, Empower Healing
Level 27 Feat (1): Epic Reflexes
Bard (1): Inspire Excellence
Missing Feat: Maximize!

Stats: Str 8 / Dex 18 / Con 14 / Int 10 / Wis 8 / Cha 16 + 7 Level Ups

=================================================
20 Bard vs. 18 Bard / 2 Ranger:
=================================================

Losses:
-Heal
-Wail of the Banshee
-2 Caster Levels
-2 Spell Penetration
-1 DC (+2 cha from cap)

Gains:
+1 Feat (Maximize)
+TWF
+75 Positive Spell Power

=================================================
20 Bard vs. 16 Bard / 2 Ranger / 2 Fighter:
=================================================

Losses:
-Heal
-Wail of the Banshee
-4 Caster Levels
-4 Spell Penetration
-1 DC (+2 cha from cap)
-2 Songs
-20% Song Duration

Gains:
+3 Feats (Maximize / Heighten / Spell Focus: Enchantment)
+TWF
+75 Positive Spell Power

=================================================
For completeness here is a 20 melee TWF version
=================================================
20 Bard AA vs. 20 Bard TWF
=================================================

Losses:
-All Bow Feats (Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, IC: Ranged)

Gains:
+ AA Action Points available for use elsewhere
+Scimitar Melee Feats (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC: Slashing)
+Maximize
+SF: Enchantment

=================================================

I'd welcome any thoughts or comments on the subject.

Pilgrim1
09-07-2013, 05:32 PM
Maximize is very much not necessary, feel free to drop that. Your primary methods of healing will be heal spells, heal scrolls, rejuvenating cocoon and renewal. None of these accept maximize. Only in very few cases are you going to need to be using your mass cures.

While Epic reflexes is nice, I think you can get a better feet, consider extend or quicken in place. I would also drop charisma significantly and put your level-ups into dex instead of charisma. The biggest reason for going charisma focus is to land your spells that have a DC, however your missing the many feats that help make that possible (spell focus enchantment/GSF enchantment/Epic spell focus enchantment/heighten).

Lastly if you plan on splitting I would drop down more levels, good bard splits are 16, 15, 14, and 12. I played around with a 14bard/6ranger on the test sever that worked quite well.

Good luck!

ZeebaNeighba
09-07-2013, 05:38 PM
Double post. I posted, thought it wasn't loading, added a lot more and then...oh look.

ZeebaNeighba
09-07-2013, 05:57 PM
I'm pretty sure you can take regular feats at level 27 as well, which would open up room to drop epic reflexes for maximize. Also take a look at precision or combat archery (I hear it works now) if you would rather boost your bow stuff.

Either make up your mind if you want DC's or not. If you do, I suggest you drop dex to 16 (+3 tomes for IPS are relatively cheap, and as more people play at level 28 and are routinely pulling unbound +4s to sell, prices will drop) unless you really decide you want combat archery, and drop con to 12. I never find it worth it to pay 2-for-1 on con, and I think the general advice is to spend 6 points. Combined, you can raise charisma to 18. Or you can just take one TR, gain 6 build points and raise charisma to 18.

From there, you would basically be trying to maximize your charisma. Fatesinger epic destiny is the best for maximizing it, so I will assume that (it does give some damage bonuses, sonic weakness for pinion and wind-howler bracers, I'd say it's probably 3rd for a ranged character). Though if you put points into ranged damage, you won't be putting as many into charisma...but maybe it won't be your ranged DPS destiny, and you'll swap around depending if you want DPS or CC. Still, I will assume max charisma.

18 base
7 level-up
4 tome (maybe?)
6 enhancements
6 the line of ED enhancements
1 glitter of fame
1 echoes of the ancestor
1 masked ball
2 inspire excellence
2 yugoloth potions
2 airship buff
11 charisma item
3 insightful item bonus
1 exceptional item bonus
1 litany of the dead (hey, with +1 profane to ranged you have more excuse than most casters to use this ;) )
--------
65 Total. Means you can drop something here. Mod: +27

DC's on disco ball, hold monster:
14 base
27 charisma mod
1 Marigold crown
1 Enchantment lore in elf tree
2 Prodigy
1 Spellsong Trance
5 Enchantment DC item
2 Spell focus mastery item (I hear it stacks, though I'm not sure if it's WAI)
3 Magister enchantment focus*
--------
56* Max DC, without sacrificing your feats. And good luck slotting all the gear; I'm not sure if you can even find +5 enchantment anywhere besides finding a great drop on a lootgen bow, or by using caster sticks (then you can't shoot at all).

*Magister enchantment focus requires spell focus: enchantment. Though last time I checked, if you have that feat, then reincarnate (Lesser or True) to get rid of it, you can keep the ability trained as long as you never say a word to Fred.

Your decision if it's worth it, go hard or go home basically.

Wulverine
09-07-2013, 06:40 PM
For the record the +2 charisma is not in the capstone any more, it is in the 5th row enhancement prodigy. Capstone gives +10 spell power though.


It is in the capstone. Prodigy gives +2 enchantment dc's and +2 spell pen, but the capstone still gives +2 CHA.

Laeelin
09-07-2013, 08:07 PM
Maximize is very much not necessary, feel free to drop that. Your primary methods of healing will be heal spells, heal scrolls, rejuvenating cocoon and renewal. None of these accept maximize. Only in very few cases are you going to need to be using your mass cures.

It's dropped then!


I would also drop charisma significantly and put your level-ups into dex instead of charisma. The biggest reason for going charisma focus is to land your spells that have a DC, however your missing the many feats that help make that possible (spell focus enchantment/GSF enchantment/Epic spell focus enchantment/heighten).


Your decision if it's worth it, go hard or go home basically.

Now i'm looking at one of the following builds:

20 AA Spellsinger - Low Spell Penetration and DC's

Stats: Str 8 / Dex 18 + 7 Level Ups / Con 12 / Int 14 / Wis 8 / Cha 16
Ranged Feats (6): Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, IC: Ranged
Healing Feats (3): Quicken, Empower Healing, Extend
Bard (1): Inspire Excellence
This option requires a large AP investment in Elf / AA / Warchanter

20 Melee Spellsinger - Better DC's but still has low Spell Penetration

Stats: Str 8 / Dex 16 / Con 12 / Int 10 / Wis 8 / Cha 18 + 7 Level Ups
Melee Feats (4): TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC: Slashing
Casting Feats (5): Quicken, Empower Healing, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Heighten
Bard (1): Inspire Excellence
This option requires a medium AP investment in Elf / Warchanter

20 Just a Spellsinger (Drow) - Better DC's and Spell Penetration

Drow Gives: +3 Enchantment DC (+4 Cha and Enchantment Lore).
Stats: Str 8 / Dex 10 / Con 12 / Int 16 / Wis 8 / Cha 20 + 7 Level Ups
Casting Feats (9): Quicken, Empower Healing, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Heighten, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Epic Spell Penetration, Extend
Bard (1): Inspire Excellence
This option requires a small AP investment in Drow


Final Tally

Enchantment DC Difference:
AA: 0 (base)
Melee: 7.5 + Heighten
Drow: 9.5 + Heighten

Spell Penetration Difference:
AA: 0 (base)
Melee: 0
Drow: +5

AA Build:
I believe that this build is the highest dps by far, and with the correct EDs and twists would even be a good dps character. Not top tier, but would be good dps and will also bring good healing and great buffs. Well worth the spot even in EE.

Melee Build:
I think that the melee build is giving up a lot of dps and will still lack good DC and spell penetration. Basically, I need to choose EDs and twists to increase my DC instead of my dps so my melee dps will be far behind a normal melee. The more I look at it the less I like the build. If I drop DC's I can improve my DPS by a lot, but I'd rather either go all out DC or ignore DC's.

Drow Build:
Great spellsinger, but how could I kill anything? I think that being able to contribute real DPS as an AA would add more to the group than the Disco Ball from the Drow version will.


Conclusions / Questions
In the long term I want to be able to run EE's and feel like I'm worth my spot. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe that my AA DPS will be very respectable (80% or so of full DPS build). With my additional healing and buffing abilities I should be well worth my spot in any raid / group.

Does 80% sound correct? If i'm going to be 50% of a DPS build then I need to come up with a different plan! :)

I need to make the decision between having the DC's and having the DPS. With a 9.5 point difference in DC that's the difference between no fail and 50% fail. That makes it clear how much of an extreme difference there is between the two paths. If I am going to follow the DC path I'd rather wait until I TR my main with 2 wizard, 1 fvs, and 1 paladin past lives. That would let me add in another +5 spell penetration and +1 DC to the Drow version.

unbongwah
09-07-2013, 08:34 PM
The main reason for staying pure & going CHA-based on a bard is to max out your DCs & Spell Pen; but can you hit useful thresholds w/out any feats (Spell Focus, Spell Pen, Heighten)?

The secondary reason for staying pure is to get the capstone; Wail of the Banshee and Heal are nice perks, but WotB has the same problems w/DCs - actually worse, since it's Necro and bards get no Necro DC boosts.

Also don't forget APs are a constraining factor. You have to spend 41 APs in SS to get capstone and 20 APs in elf tree to get AA+Grace+Skill; that leaves only 19 APs for AA and WC.

ZeebaNeighba
09-07-2013, 09:15 PM
It is in the capstone. Prodigy gives +2 enchantment dc's and +2 spell pen, but the capstone still gives +2 CHA.Good catch, that is true! I edited my breakdown to fix it.
The main reason for staying pure & going CHA-based on a bard is to max out your DCs & Spell Pen; but can you hit useful thresholds w/out any feats (Spell Focus, Spell Pen, Heighten)?

The secondary reason for staying pure is to get the capstone; Wail of the Banshee and Heal are nice perks, but WotB has the same problems w/DCs - actually worse, since it's Necro and bards get no Necro DC boosts.

Also don't forget APs are a constraining factor. You have to spend 41 APs in SS to get capstone and 20 APs in elf tree to get AA+Grace+Skill; that leaves only 19 APs for AA and WC.I have a breakdown a few posts up for how to get 56 disco ball/hold monster DC's without sacrificing any feats. It eats into your gear and destinies though, and you get 3 DC's from magister enchantment focus which requires a rather cheesy method to obtain without actually taking the spell focus feat prerequisite. For the record, Wail DC would be 51 if you got a +5 necromancy focus item for it, take a few points off for however much lower than +5 you go, because I'm not sure how easy that is to slot.

Laeelin
09-07-2013, 09:48 PM
Also don't forget APs are a constraining factor. You have to spend 41 APs in SS to get capstone and 20 APs in elf tree to get AA+Grace+Skill; that leaves only 19 APs for AA and WC.

AP's are a real problem, I just finished breaking them down. I have two versions depending on if I need the heal spell or more DPS. I might also find that I want to focus more on one style or the other and LR or TR into a build that is better at that style.

Elf: 20 or 22 (depending on if i want to take a +1 Dex for 2 points)

AA Mode:
Spellsinger: 16 (18)
AA: 42

Spellsinger Mode:
Spellsinger: 42
AA: 16 (18)


I have thought about changing to a 16 Bard / 2 Ranger / 2 Rogue version. This gives traps, evasion, +1 feat, +75 healing. Evasion would be really nice on the build - I'm already dex based.

I do like the idea of having heal quite a bit though. I hate healing without it. :)

Please keep up the helpful discussion. I don't plan on making my "final" decision until tomorrow evening! Even then, depending on how much I enjoy the character I'll probably either TR my main or TR this guy with a few changes after I have more experience in EE grouping.

Laeelin
09-07-2013, 10:27 PM
Also take a look at precision or combat archery (I hear it works now) if you would rather boost your bow stuff.

I missed this part of you post somehow...

If combat archery works I will probably go with the 16 Bard / 2 Ranger / 2 Rogue version of this build. It gains a feat I can spend on combat archery. I forgot that Precision could be used with the precise shot stance. The wiki says that the 25% fortification bypass isn't currently working. The link it refers to is dead and I dont have time to find current information tonight.

Ranger Feats (1): Rapid Shot
Ranged Feats (6): Point Blank Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, IC: Ranged, Combat Archery
Healing Feats (3): Quicken, Empower Healing, Extend
Bard (1): Inspire Excellence


Another version I'm looking at now:
================================================== ====
14 Bard / 2 Fighter / 4 Ranger

Elf: 16 Str +7 level ups / 18 Dex / 12 Con / 12 Int / 8 Wis / 10 Cha (+3 Dex tome and +1 Str tome will give me enough str and dex to get both Combat Archery and OC)
Ranger Feats (2): Rapid Shot, Precise Shot
Ranged Feats (5): Point Blank Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, IC: Ranged, Combat Archery
Healing Feats (2): Quicken, Extend
Melee Feats (5): Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical, IC: Slashing
================================================== ====
I've fallen so far from my original dex based elven Spellsinger AA idea... On the plus side the DPS for this build would be really good. I would still have good buffing and my healing would be more than enough for both soloing and backup healing. I dropped Empower Healing for IC: Slashing, but I'm second guessing that decision... I don't know what else to do other than drop to 12 bard and I'd like to avoid that.



Interestingly enough someone started a general AA thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425097-Arcane-Archer-How-an-eternally-ranged-player-sees-the-PrE-(now-post-U19!)?highlight=fortification+Precision) today. I'll read that tomorrow and make more decisions then.

It's past time I slept on this.

Pilgrim1
09-08-2013, 02:42 AM
Another version I'm looking at now:
================================================== ====
14 Bard / 2 Fighter / 4 Ranger

Elf: 16 Str +7 level ups / 18 Dex / 12 Con / 12 Int / 8 Wis / 10 Cha (+3 Dex tome and +1 Str tome will give me enough str and dex to get both Combat Archery and OC)
Ranger Feats (2): Rapid Shot, Precise Shot
Ranged Feats (5): Point Blank Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, IC: Ranged, Combat Archery
Healing Feats (2): Quicken, Extend
Melee Feats (5): Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical, IC: Slashing


If you are going to do this you will be better off in human. Elf gives you AA tree and dex to dmg with bows. You no longer need this with this set-up. The exception is if you want slayer arrow (impressive damage with manyshot + adrenalin).

I think you should think about what destiny you want to run in. The PA and cleave chain lends itself to 2hF legendary dreadnaught because of momentum swings and charging for blitzes. However manyshot archery lends itself to furry of the wild because of the way that adrenalin interacts with manyshot. Also TWF is much stronger then 2hf in furry of the wild because it builds up adrenalin faster.

So you really have a few choices:
A) Melee/ranged or DC casting (seams like your leading to Melee)
B) Pure or split - Pure gives slightly long songs and heal, split gives feats and opens enhancements.
C) THF or TWF.
D) race choices: Half orc/human for THF and elf(dex build)/human.
E) Primary destiny choice.

My personal preference for class splits is fighter and/or ranger. Some people like barb and rogue as options but neither one gives extra feats.

One possible build to think about (one I am thinking about for myself as well)

Human 12 bard/6ranger/2fighter
Feats 1 human, 7 base, 2 fighter, 6 ranger granted, 3 epic - 19:
(7) bow strength, rapid shot, point blank shot, precise shot, many shot, improved precise shot, improved critical: ranged
(4) TWF, ITWF, GTWF, improved crit: slash?
(3) precision + toughness + epic toughness.
(2) Extend + empower healing.
(3) stuff I'm missing? other options? maybe cleave lines? dodge + mobility? Dump fighter for other classes? ditch Human? the MT line for 400 more spell points? Lots of options here.
Epic destiny feats: perfect twf and lasting inspirations

16 str + 5 lvls
16 dex + 3 tome for IPS
16 con +3 tome + 2 lvls for Epic tough
10 int

anyways, just some more food for thought. Splashed bards lose songs, song durations and power, healing power, some songs (IE and inspire heroics); but gain serious fighting abilities.

Laeelin
09-08-2013, 12:52 PM
If you are going to do this you will be better off in human. Elf gives you AA tree and dex to dmg with bows. You no longer need this with this set-up. The exception is if you want slayer arrow (impressive damage with manyshot + adrenalin).


Going elf also gives +4/+4 to damage this is true even when going strength. The only reason I did a str build is for OC. It's very expensive though. 4 feats and splits my stats. On the plus side it's much easier to buff str than it is to buff dex.



So you really have a few choices:
A) Melee/ranged or DC casting (seams like your leading to Melee)
B) Pure or split - Pure gives slightly long songs and heal, split gives feats and opens enhancements.
C) THF or TWF.
D) race choices: Half orc/human for THF and elf(dex build)/human.
E) Primary destiny choice.


A) Ranged with bard buffs / healing
B) Split, but i'd prefer to stay with 16 bard levels. Dropping to 15 losses cure mod mass. Dropping to 14 removes Inspire Excellence, dropping to 12 removes cure light mass and greater heroism.
C) TWF if I can do it, but dropping OC is painful. Spending 4 feats to get OC is painful as well :)
D) Elf
E) Archer is my primary role, so I will be focusing on that.

That really helps.



My personal preference for class splits is fighter and/or ranger. Some people like barb and rogue as options but neither one gives extra feats.

One possible build to think about (one I am thinking about for myself as well)

Human 12 bard/6ranger/2fighter
Feats 1 human, 7 base, 2 fighter, 6 ranger granted, 3 epic - 19:
(7) bow strength, rapid shot, point blank shot, precise shot, many shot, improved precise shot, improved critical: ranged
(4) TWF, ITWF, GTWF, improved crit: slash?
(3) precision + toughness + epic toughness.
(2) Extend + empower healing.
(3) stuff I'm missing? other options? maybe cleave lines? dodge + mobility? Dump fighter for other classes? ditch Human? the MT line for 400 more spell points? Lots of options here.
Epic destiny feats: perfect twf and lasting inspirations

16 str + 5 lvls
16 dex + 3 tome for IPS
16 con +3 tome + 2 lvls for Epic tough
10 int

anyways, just some more food for thought. Splashed bards lose songs, song durations and power, healing power, some songs (IE and inspire heroics); but gain serious fighting abilities.

Thanks for the comments and ideas.

My plan is now...

Bard 14 / Ranger 4 / Rogue 2
Dex based AA elf with evasion. I would really like to keep Inspire Excellence but I cant do that with the feats I consider "required" and keep evasion. If I find that I'm spending nearly all my time using bows I will LR into a Bard 16 / Ranger 2 / Rogue 2 version that drops ITWF, GTWF and IC: Slashing in order to pick up Inspire Excellence and either Quicken or Empowered Healing. Note that this build does not have OC, 10k Stars, or Grandmaster Mountain Stance. That is a lot to give up so that I can keep bard. On the plus side, this does look like a very fun and versatile character!

Ranger Free:
Rapid Shot
TWF
Precise Shot

7 Normal:
Extend
Manyshot
Point Blank Shot
Improved Precise Shot
IC: Ranged
ITWF
GTWF

3 Epic:
Combat Archery
Precision
IC: Slashing

HatsuharuZ
09-08-2013, 02:08 PM
I consider Improved Precise Shot to be optional. It's not always possible to line up the mobs to use it.

giftie
09-09-2013, 07:44 AM
I did a pure Spellsinger AA, similar to what you're suggesting in your initial post. Point split Elf: 21, WC: 6, SS: 41, AA: 12 - same feats except dropped (or delayed, at any rate) IC:R for SF:Enchantment.

The way I see it, it's a matter of priorities. Between buffing, healing, CC and damage you're not going to be able to perform all equally well, and at least healing and CC will hurt from spreading yourself too thin. Personally, I found that dropping pure SS wouldn't increase my damage enough to justify the loss of Heal and Wail.

Admittely, damage is last on my priority list (heck, I'm using an Ash II longbow most of the time - and that's essentially a support weapon), but let's face it - ranged DPS is still lagging behind expect for very specialized builds. You'd probably be better off going TWF. In fact, I think that build would be superior in most ways - better damage, better DCs, better support.

I suppose it's a matter of play style, but between buffing, healing and CC-ing I rarely get a chance to actually fight. I'd rather have Manyshot (which is just ever so lovely when Tide is off CD) and Soul Magic for the free spell points. Plus I find it much harder to keep track of what's happening when in melee.

I'd advice against Drow though. You can potentially get +4 CHA, but you lose Arcanum and Grace meaning you'll have to split your attributes to Strength as well, essentially negating the advantages of the race.

voodoogroves
09-09-2013, 08:00 AM
I did a pure Spellsinger AA, similar to what you're suggesting in your initial post. Point split Elf: 21, WC: 6, SS: 41, AA: 12 - same feats except dropped (or delayed, at any rate) IC:R for SF:Enchantment.

The way I see it, it's a matter of priorities. Between buffing, healing, CC and damage you're not going to be able to perform all equally well, and at least healing and CC will hurt from spreading yourself too thin. Personally, I found that dropping pure SS wouldn't increase my damage enough to justify the loss of Heal and Wail.

...snip...


This is how I feel on a lot of builds I see. One thing that can be difficult is trying to really figure out what you want to be *GOOD* at.

I personally think every build should be "good" at something. It's ok to have a few fill-in abilities like trapping, but at some point you marginalize everything else.

Bards got a boost in some areas, but they are still only the king of one thing - songs. You can add on a bit more or another area of specialty without impacting that too much, but after a point you kinda stop being what you wanted to be in the first place. Bard 14 is a hard break-point. You lose Inspire Heroics, no 6th level spells (your 2nd mass cure) and access to Inspire Excellence.

Do you feel you gain enough to make up for the missing amount? This is why 15, 16 and 18 are much more common splits.

Bards are even rougher as they are generally speaking, a force multiplier ... they make the party better.

If you're going w/ 14, I'd suggest you considering dropping all the way to 12. You'd get more personal capability out of the extra 2 ranger levels.


I love bards, and have a variety of splits. I've struggled with this myself from time to time - but invariably less than 16 or so levels and I find the bardiness isn't very good - you'll be outclassed by other bards - and your other things won't be as good as the other classes (DPS, archery, traps).

Anywho, just some feedback. I like my bard-with-manyshot, but the bard with manyshot, evasion and trapping never felt as honed.

giftie
09-09-2013, 08:47 AM
ADDENDUM:

Just saw your proposed build.

I would probably not bother getting evasion on an archer unless doubling as a trapper (and I just can't see getting enough skill points for it to work). Like voodoogroves says, if you decide to not get Inspire Excellence, the gain had better be worth it. Evasion, essentially personal protection, isn't in my opinion. At least not in a class of which there is a general expectation to excel at buffing and supporting others.

Having said that, have you considered a 16 Bard/4 Ranger Human STR-based THF/Archer?

AA accessed by Ranger (although no AA core beyond II or any tier 5 enhancements, but the assumption is you're still going either tier 5 WC - assuming Howl stacks with OC - or SS, grab some tier 4 imbues from AA, maybe token 6 points in DWS for positive spell power and dump the rest of the points in the bard tree not taken before).

Feat-wise it's possible to squeeze in PBS, Manyshot, IC:R, PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Emp. Healing and Quicken for heroic feats and OC, Inspire Excellence and Combat Archery for epic feats.

Granted, it gives up any pretense of non-song CC, but it will have good healing, good buffing, adequate single-target ranged (no IPS unfortunately) and the option to bring out a two-hander. I would assume base 14 DEX and a +3 tome, rest of attributes 16 STR (level-ups here), 16 CHA and 14 CON for a 32-pointer.

96th_Malice
09-09-2013, 04:50 PM
...snip...


This is how I feel on a lot of builds I see. One thing that can be difficult is trying to really figure out what you want to be *GOOD* at.

I personally think every build should be "good" at something. It's ok to have a few fill-in abilities like trapping, but at some point you marginalize .

This is a very good point. I have had an Elven AA Spellsinger for quite some time and it took awhile to get everything tweaked just right.

I ended up with 16 bard / 2 ranger / 2 fighter.

The toons first role is healing with bow as a back up .... And for me who only plays ranged toons believe me, putting that bow away to start healing is an issue sometimes,

I found with the build I did I had enough feats to make everything work ... And work quite well. With the 75% amp on wands and scrolls I can spam away on mass cure scrolls and keep up very well on EE raids.

And if the dedicated healers are doing well .... I song and buff away and keep the bow out full time.

I like this toon so much I am now looking into a FVS version

Laeelin
09-09-2013, 06:15 PM
This is a very good point.

I think both of you have a lot of good advice. In fact, I have never received as much helpful and good advice in a thread before. My thanks to all of you.

I have decided to put this character on hold and LR my 16 Monk into an AA and will play that to 20+ so that I have a better idea of how I want my bard to end up. Then I'll make a character with at least 16 bard levels. I might even TR one of my two mains into it.

I posted the build I'm thinking of here: The Shadowed Bow (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425194-The-Shadowed-Bow-AA-with-Multishot-amp-10k-Stars)

goodspeed
09-19-2013, 12:25 AM
dps and spell singer don't really go together. It's like being a palemaster except you don't get the option to ko stuff. lol so basically it's like being a palemaster in todays eelites bwahahah,

Anyway. Pure spellsinger your looking at cc, dmg just isn't there. I mean it's there but ur gonna look at yourself and say, why am I even swinging this? And if you splash (which would net you dmg easily because a splish splash here and there makes nearly anything good dps at end) you pretty much effectivly kill the reason why you went for spell singer. (To be the ultimate buffer and great ccer.)

As for AA I agree the best build as far as I have seen is still monk with 10k stars. (Jack wis way up) it's gonna outbeat even the best % of doubleshot you could ever get. Hell it would even overcome 100% chance to fire 2 arrows every time with the 3 and 4 arrow bursts. Course keep in mind the 10k stars requires a heavy investment in wis. Wis is the name of the game. (Also gives you a great stunning fist dc for when you might have to do some dip duck dive tactics.)

supott
09-19-2013, 06:15 AM
i am trying a pure bard this life.. i want to LR+3 him to 2 rogue for evasion and possibly 1 cleric for Divine Might, but i'd need to spend $$$ to get enough Trap skills, so i'm gonna try for pure first.

2 Rogue gives Shiv and Bleed it out, both 3[W] attacks, 1 Cleric's Divine Might could give perhaps 12-16 more strength and 6-8 more base damage. Haven't tested this but sounds nice. Even hoping it is boost enough to make my Throwing weapons not suck too badly.

I put full TWF feats and gonna take IC:Slash/Pierce, while still starting 16 Cha + Lvl ups. Not getting any Spell pen Feats (But have +4 from Wiz past lives) which is allowing me to get them. I wonder though if neglecting Spell Pen totally will still allow you to CC (No Past lives). Some mobs will resist but you can cast it again, and the trade-off DPS vs Spell Pen, what is more useful?
Staying pure will still net you 4 more Spell pen than 16 splash.

I didn't want to not have ranged attacks with this toon though so I understand the importance of ranged. I tried a 12 bard 6 ranger 2 rogue split and loved it, but dropping Cha totally.

I can still use charms as my ranged strategy for trash, but Bosses are my concern without Ranged feats.

I noticed however that with my 12 bard 6 ranger that I often could survive without using ranged at all. It was useful in tough situations, but my main DPS was still Melee. With no Ranged feats, I am hoping that Throwing weapons will be enough and I will see. Bosses who overrun are my concern like Tor White dragon, who need kiting.

2 Ranger looks like a nice compromise though haven't tried it. Otto's Irresistible dance is a nice spell though at lvl 16, with a 6 sec cooldown, so 16 Bard is nice.

Scrag
09-19-2013, 04:50 PM
i am trying a pure bard this life.. i want to LR+3 him to 2 rogue for evasion and possibly 1 cleric for Divine Might, but i'd need to spend $$$ to get enough Trap skills, so i'm gonna try for pure first.

2 Rogue gives Shiv and Bleed it out, both 3[W] attacks, 1 Cleric's Divine Might could give perhaps 12-16 more strength and 6-8 more base damage. Haven't tested this but sounds nice. Even hoping it is boost enough to make my Throwing weapons not suck too badly.


I am thinking about 1 cleric (3 awareness (+3 search/spot/listen +1 trap save), divine might, +90 spell points, altruisim 3 (30 positive sp)), 4 arti, 15 bard. Arti for trapping, more spell points, free mm feat, field engineer 3, endless fusilade, more trapping, universal spellpower, umd bonus bits (wands/scrolls/whathaveyou) and various self-boosts.

voodoogroves
09-19-2013, 07:22 PM
I am thinking about 1 cleric (3 awareness (+3 search/spot/listen +1 trap save), divine might, +90 spell points, altruisim 3 (30 positive sp)), 4 arti, 15 bard. Arti for trapping, more spell points, free mm feat, field engineer 3, endless fusilade, more trapping, universal spellpower, umd bonus bits (wands/scrolls/whathaveyou) and various self-boosts.

Repeater builds (I think) are going to really want INT to damage + fusilade. There are only a few ways it looks like you can make that happen - Arti 6 or Arti 4 / Rogue 6 ... and neither of them are really a good mesh for a bard. Sad, really.

You could go less, but losing INT to damage would chunkblow.