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matezzo
09-02-2013, 01:21 PM
Hi!

I'm a returning player, find this new enhncement system a bit confusing yet, I would like to hear some ideas about how to optimize a my gf's character, a cleric/fighter halfling who uses great axes.

So far there is a lvl 6 cleric/ lvl 1 fighter lawful good halfling (for flavor) I'd like to continue from here, but have that lesser lr +20 if really necessary. The char in it's second life (we TR-ed when we came back to start from lvl 1)

starting stats:
s: 15 (all lvl up here)
d: 10
c: 14
i: 12 (to have max heal, spellcraft, conc, some jump..)
w: 14
ch:13 (to use divine might later)

in previous life it was 18 cleric/2 fighter, want something similar: so a melee great axe user with spells. But the game has changed a lot.. in the past getting fighter 2 for the str enhancement was a good deal, but now there are many other sources of damage as i see, less feat requirements for prestige classes.

any idea how to develop the character? no clonk, please, i think it's too late to get rogue levels unless lr again. i was thinking 19 cleric/1 fighter, or maybe 14 cleric/6 fighter (divine might+ kensei psionic stuff fo high str)
I'd like to have big melee dps, but i also think the new spell like abilities are good options even w/o big investments (searing light for exmaple). I1d like to hear ideas about which tree is the best for this character. in the past it had the healing aura and my gf liked it.

thx

Mrphish
09-02-2013, 04:52 PM
Have you considered a deeper split? like say... cleric(14) Fighter(4) monk/rogue(2)

cleric - decent spell list

Fighter - feats, feats, also some good options for dps enhancements.

Monk - moderate amount of skill points, evasion, feats, acess to some moderately useful enhancements.

Rogue - large amount of skill points, evasion, sneak attack.

I personally prefer the monk route, because im a feats junkie. i think this would give you more of a melee dps focus, along with some more added survivability.

Then again this is just theory, never played a melee cleric myself... so i'd wait for others to chime in with their thoughts.

Soulfurnace
09-02-2013, 09:45 PM
I played my "battle" cleric (yeah, I hate that term.) three ways.
1) Greataxes+manyshot (for burst dps),
2) Greataxes w/ THF chain (just to try it),
3) Staves, centered in master of earth.

Personally, I prefer #3, but they all use the same split - 17/2/1 cleric/monk/ranger. I wanted Heal, Mass and Energy Drain from level 9 cleric spells, evasion and bow str from ranger.

In hindsight, now that I use a staff, I still like ranger. It gives me 1d6 sneak attack, +3 reflex and 75 positive energy.

Monk gives ninja spy sneak attack, less threat, dodge and some reflex, along with Quick Strike, staff damage and Fists of Iron for centered staff clerics :)

And.. cleric gives spells.

My thoughts are simple - pick an option out of: Spells, or Melee.
You can't excel at both (unless you're a clonk, but they lack higher melee dps), and investing heavily in either makes the other worse.

If you want to run around with a greataxe, my only healing feats would be emp. heal and Quicken - nothing else. Without the other feats, spells are a joke - with the other feats, melee would be worse, and I'd be better off just using spells.

CE2JRH123
09-03-2013, 03:17 PM
The protection tree is supposed to be shifted to a Warpriest tree in the near future, so you might be interested in waiting until you see what that brings.

firemedium_jt
09-05-2013, 01:02 AM
Are you taking it to epic.

I like this splash for a "Melee Cleric"

CLR17/WIZ1

WIZ1 gives you another feat, Master's touch for Martial Prof, Some access to wands and scrolls like Teleport ML7 (25% chance, but they are cheap to use).

CLR17 gives you Mass Heal, and your second Rez or Implosion and Energy Drain.

The debate for me now is whether to take FTR1 or FTR2 at Character lvl 19 and 20 cause Cleric 18 gives you some nice spells. Toughness feat may also not be necessary anymore.

If you want to melee all you need is Power Attack and Improved Critical Slash for 2hdrs for heroic lvls. Cleave is nice with Paralyzers for Heroic lvls. For Epic and Epic Destinies you need Cleave. Cleave gets you Momentum Swing and Lay Waste.

Divine Might is ok, but maybe not worth the CHR investment. Turns are a plenty now for Aura and Bursts. I dump CHR a while back, and still do.

If you are going to melee get the STR up to 23 for Overwhelming Critical Epic feat unless you are going to TR. STR16 +2 tome +5 lvlups = 23

I try to take a Min of WIS14 and more like 16, but I like the generalist build and think Clerics can get away with it with all the epic destinies to help casting.

After all you will always be best at healing. Everything else is just flavor for Hard and Epic Hard when you just want to save time and get it done.

Soulfurnace
09-05-2013, 03:11 AM
Are you taking it to epic.

I try to take a Min of WIS14 and more like 16, but I like the generalist build and think Clerics can get away with it with all the epic destinies to help casting.

After all you will always be best at healing. Everything else is just flavor for Hard and Epic Hard when you just want to save time and get it done.

If you aren't building for epics, roll whatever you want, it'll be fine.

My cleric has min wis of 12, just throws on a wisdom item. (I [i]could[i/] start with 8, but that's because I have a bigass wisdom tome.)

Please tell me you don't mean to say a cleric is a healbot, and melee is flavour in elite. Heroic elite, hah. Why not melee? Epic elite? Hah. Just have better gear, then get back to meleeing.

firemedium_jt
09-05-2013, 12:56 PM
If you aren't building for epics, roll whatever you want, it'll be fine.

My cleric has min wis of 12, just throws on a wisdom item. (I [i]could[i/] start with 8, but that's because I have a bigass wisdom tome.)

Please tell me you don't mean to say a cleric is a healbot, and melee is flavour in elite. Heroic elite, hah. Why not melee? Epic elite? Hah. Just have better gear, then get back to meleeing.

Elite and Epic Elite requires a balanced group IMHO. If you want a Cleric to be effective casting or melee in EE and Elite content you need so much gear that it is just not worth my time.

I am casual and casual with gear. I hate grinding and prefer to just buy Concentrated Major mana pots at the DDO store if stuff I am in over my head in with a lack of gear. I seem to burn pots more in EE content than anything else. At 7 cents a pot from..... 11000 TP@ $60, and Major Mana pots on sale at 1121 TP for 100 pots, so $60/11,000TP * 1121TP = $6.11/100pots = .06 cents a mana pot.

So you can build however you want for E and EE too. And you support the game and keep the servers running.

firemedium_jt
09-05-2013, 12:58 PM
If you aren't building for epics, roll whatever you want, it'll be fine.

My cleric has min wis of 12, just throws on a wisdom item. (I [i]could[i/] start with 8, but that's because I have a bigass wisdom tome.)

Please tell me you don't mean to say a cleric is a healbot, and melee is flavour in elite. Heroic elite, hah. Why not melee? Epic elite? Hah. Just have better gear, then get back to meleeing.

Elite and Epic Elite requires a balanced group IMHO. If you want a Cleric to be effective casting or melee in EE and Elite content you need so much gear that it is just not worth my time.

I am casual and casual with gear. I hate grinding and prefer to just buy Concentrated Major mana pots at the DDO store if stuff I am in over my head in with a lack of gear. I seem to burn pots more in EE content than anything else. At 7 cents a pot from..... 11000 TP@ $60, and Major Mana pots on sale at 1121 TP for 100 pots, so $60/11,000TP * 1121TP = $6.11/100pots = 6 cents a mana pot.

So you can build however you want for E and EE too. And you support the game and keep the servers running.

firemedium_jt
09-05-2013, 12:58 PM
If you aren't building for epics, roll whatever you want, it'll be fine.

My cleric has min wis of 12, just throws on a wisdom item. (I [i]could[i/] start with 8, but that's because I have a bigass wisdom tome.)

Please tell me you don't mean to say a cleric is a healbot, and melee is flavour in elite. Heroic elite, hah. Why not melee? Epic elite? Hah. Just have better gear, then get back to meleeing.

Elite and Epic Elite requires a balanced group at level IMHO. If you want a Cleric to be effective casting or melee in EE and Elite content you need so much gear that it is just not worth my time.

I am casual and casual with gear. I hate grinding and prefer to just buy Concentrated Major mana pots at the DDO store if stuff I am in over my head in with a lack of gear. I seem to burn pots more in EE content than anything else. At 7 cents a pot from..... 11000 TP@ $60, and Major Mana pots on sale at 1121 TP for 100 pots, so $60/11,000TP * 1121TP = $6.11/100pots = 6 cents a mana pot.

So you can build however you want for E and EE too. And you support the game and keep the servers running.

firemedium_jt
09-05-2013, 12:59 PM
If you aren't building for epics, roll whatever you want, it'll be fine.

My cleric has min wis of 12, just throws on a wisdom item. (I [i]could[i/] start with 8, but that's because I have a bigass wisdom tome.)

Please tell me you don't mean to say a cleric is a healbot, and melee is flavour in elite. Heroic elite, hah. Why not melee? Epic elite? Hah. Just have better gear, then get back to meleeing.

Elite and Epic Elite requires a balanced group at level IMHO. If you want a Cleric to be effective casting or melee in EE and Elite content you need so much gear that it is just not worth my time.

I am casual and casual with gear. I hate grinding and prefer to just buy Concentrated Major mana pots at the DDO store if quests are tough due to lack of gear. I seem to burn pots more in EE content than anything else. At 7 cents a pot from..... 11000 TP@ $60, and Major Mana pots on sale at 1121 TP for 100 pots, so $60/11,000TP * 1121TP = $6.11/100pots = 6 cents a mana pot.

So you can build however you want for E and EE too. And you support the game and keep the servers running.

eachna_gislin
09-05-2013, 01:02 PM
My thoughts are simple - pick an option out of: Spells, or Melee.
You can't excel at both (unless you're a clonk, but they lack higher melee dps), and investing heavily in either makes the other worse.

If you want to run around with a greataxe, my only healing feats would be emp. heal and Quicken - nothing else. Without the other feats, spells are a joke - with the other feats, melee would be worse, and I'd be better off just using spells.

I'd agree with much of Soulfurnace's advise except a couple extra notes...

1) I'd take enough in the Radiant Servant tree to get the burst. You don't need the aura, but the burst is really nice on a melee cleric and still heals those close by in combat. It takes 10 ap spent in Radiant servant and costs 1 ap. I bought 3 Extra Turning, 3 Wand Mastery (for the scrolls), and 2 Altruism. 1 Bliss instead of 2 Altruism might also be a viable choice.

2) For Casting feats, I'd recommend three. Quicken, Empower Healing, and Maximize. All three work on the burst, and at least two out of three work on most other useful cleric spells. Being able to Maximize spells that allow saves for half damage still allows you to toss out a something effective before going all out with your weapon. A battle cleric should not ignore their spells (if you want to play a self healing fighter there are better options). Instead, they should make judicious use of the "save for half" mechanic to their advantage. With fighter levels you can afford the third feat.

As you're already planning to do, go two handed fighting. Two weapon fighting is just too expensive feat wise and doesn't really gain you any DPS benefits. A Min 2 great axe and a later epic Antique Great Axe both make effective DR breakers for play and there's a nice selection of great swords and great axes in the game. If you can afford the greensteel mats, a triple positive maul or qstaff for blunt undead bashing is a nice extra.

Soulfurnace
09-05-2013, 05:46 PM
Elite and Epic Elite requires a balanced group at level IMHO. If you want a Cleric to be effective casting or melee in EE and Elite content you need so much gear that it is just not worth my time.

I am casual and casual with gear. I hate grinding and prefer to just buy Concentrated Major mana pots at the DDO store if quests are tough due to lack of gear. I seem to burn pots more in EE content than anything else. At 7 cents a pot from..... 11000 TP@ $60, and Major Mana pots on sale at 1121 TP for 100 pots, so $60/11,000TP * 1121TP = $6.11/100pots = 6 cents a mana pot.

So you can build however you want for E and EE too. And you support the game and keep the servers running.
Um. My cleric is quite fine. I haven't spent much time grinding gear, mainly just lootgen+commendation awards (And Sireth, fine!), but I'm doing just great in EE on my battle cleric.

For heroics, HAH. They're a joke. I don't buy sp pots, nor farm gear.
Meh, we play differently. I get bored healbotting, because it's easy - I can do it while getting most kills in EE. That's just me though.


I'd agree with much of Soulfurnace's advise except a couple extra notes...

1) I'd take enough in the Radiant Servant tree to get the burst. You don't need the aura, but the burst is really nice on a melee cleric and still heals those close by in combat. It takes 10 ap spent in Radiant servant and costs 1 ap. I bought 3 Extra Turning, 3 Wand Mastery (for the scrolls), and 2 Altruism. 1 Bliss instead of 2 Altruism might also be a viable choice.

2) For Casting feats, I'd recommend three. Quicken, Empower Healing, and Maximize. All three work on the burst, and at least two out of three work on most other useful cleric spells. Being able to Maximize spells that allow saves for half damage still allows you to toss out a something effective before going all out with your weapon. A battle cleric should not ignore their spells (if you want to play a self healing fighter there are better options). Instead, they should make judicious use of the "save for half" mechanic to their advantage. With fighter levels you can afford the third feat.

As you're already planning to do, go two handed fighting. Two weapon fighting is just too expensive feat wise and doesn't really gain you any DPS benefits. A Min 2 great axe and a later epic Antique Great Axe both make effective DR breakers for play and there's a nice selection of great swords and great axes in the game. If you can afford the greensteel mats, a triple positive maul or qstaff for blunt undead bashing is a nice extra.
I picked up Aura - found it worth it.
Quicken and emp heal yes, I left out maximize. Master stances+OC+Epic toughness... No spare feats.
If you're using a staff (Which is superior to my greataxe, though not sure about ESOS), swap THF feats for master stances. Erath <3

firemedium_jt
09-06-2013, 09:54 AM
Um. My cleric is quite fine. I haven't spent much time grinding gear, mainly just lootgen+commendation awards (And Sireth, fine!), but I'm doing just great in EE on my battle cleric.

For heroics, HAH. They're a joke. I don't buy sp pots, nor farm gear.
Meh, we play differently. I get bored healbotting, because it's easy - I can do it while getting most kills in EE. That's just me though.


I picked up Aura - found it worth it.
Quicken and emp heal yes, I left out maximize. Master stances+OC+Epic toughness... No spare feats.
If you're using a staff (Which is superior to my greataxe, though not sure about ESOS), swap THF feats for master stances. Erath <3


Running a Cleric that can not even Maximize Divine Punishment! Yeah. Not a good idea. That is giving up a lot of damage output. I think empower is a must too IMHO, but to not take maximize for it is just a bad idea. Especially now that Maximize sp cost is easily reduced.

Clerics that plan on melee should be using Divine Punishment at the same time if they are meleeing bosses and some red/orange names. Maximize is a must have for that. Without Maximize you are a healbot. lol

Soulfurnace
09-06-2013, 10:29 AM
Running a Cleric that can not even Maximize Divine Punishment! Yeah. Not a good idea. That is giving up a lot of damage output. I think empower is a must too IMHO, but to not take maximize for it is just a bad idea. Especially now that Maximize sp cost is easily reduced.

Clerics that plan on melee should be using Divine Punishment at the same time if they are meleeing bosses and some red/orange names. Maximize is a must have for that. Without Maximize you are a healbot. lol
Well mate, if I'm a healbot with most kills in EE, what the hell is everyone else doing?! (Okay, fine, kills aren't everything)

Now, let's discuss this. I have enough sp to keep me going through most EE quests without any effort.
Enough to keep the decent players going as well.

Find a place for me to slot: Light spell power. We need that.
Sp. Need more. Dropping emp'd/max'd DoT's uses a lot of sp.
Feats. Need two more. Find room.
Time. I have 8 clicky attacks to manage, followed by the occasional spot healing. I'm busy here people!
Ap. Need more. I've used 80/80, tell me what to drop.

Yeah, what's that? Not easy to slot? Bugger.
So, would you call a juggernaut a healbot because it doesn't DoT a boss? While it has manyshot (I could get it, but no pinion), I have roughly the same melee damage when fully buffed. No? You wouldn't call it a healbot? Strange double standard there.

However, do not tell me how to play my cleric. I built it to play how I want it to play - in melee, using sp for buffing (yeah, right) and self healing. I don't have room for the gear, nor the feats, nor the sp pool, to drop a DoT. If you have epic toughness, OC, master stances and whatever else I took, consider me surprised.

*edit* Just a thought - you call me a healbot, but you feel heroic elite requires a balanced party? To the point where YOU healbot?
And epic elite, you feel a need to healbot AND buy sp pots? I healbot neither, nor do I buy sp pots. :P

firemedium_jt
09-06-2013, 07:58 PM
Well mate, if I'm a healbot with most kills in EE, what the hell is everyone else doing?! (Okay, fine, kills aren't everything)

Now, let's discuss this. I have enough sp to keep me going through most EE quests without any effort.
Enough to keep the decent players going as well.

Find a place for me to slot: Light spell power. We need that.
Sp. Need more. Dropping emp'd/max'd DoT's uses a lot of sp.
Feats. Need two more. Find room.
Time. I have 8 clicky attacks to manage, followed by the occasional spot healing. I'm busy here people!
Ap. Need more. I've used 80/80, tell me what to drop.

Yeah, what's that? Not easy to slot? Bugger.
So, would you call a juggernaut a healbot because it doesn't DoT a boss? While it has manyshot (I could get it, but no pinion), I have roughly the same melee damage when fully buffed. No? You wouldn't call it a healbot? Strange double standard there.

However, do not tell me how to play my cleric. I built it to play how I want it to play - in melee, using sp for buffing (yeah, right) and self healing. I don't have room for the gear, nor the feats, nor the sp pool, to drop a DoT. If you have epic toughness, OC, master stances and whatever else I took, consider me surprised.

*edit* Just a thought - you call me a healbot, but you feel heroic elite requires a balanced party? To the point where YOU healbot?
And epic elite, you feel a need to healbot AND buy sp pots? I healbot neither, nor do I buy sp pots. :P

Divine Punishment triple stacked does over 200 damage per second. No save or spell resistance against it. Gauranteed damage. Sure it might not be your job to use it all the time, but if there are plenty of healers it is nice for boss fights.

Recommending not to take maximize and gimp it limits your flexibility.

It is a free forum. I can say your recommendations are not common and not recommended if I want to cupcake.

Soulfurnace
09-06-2013, 08:59 PM
Divine Punishment triple stacked does over 200 damage per second. No save or spell resistance against it. Gauranteed damage. Sure it might not be your job to use it all the time, but if there are plenty of healers it is nice for boss fights.

Recommending not to take maximize and gimp it limits your flexibility.

It is a free forum. I can say your recommendations are not common and not recommended if I want to cupcake.
I can point out that I do whatever you do, without resorting to pay-to-win, thus my logic must be better, or you're a bad player mate.
I can point out that I solo'd heroic elite because waiting on PUGs is boring - I'm a walking balanced party.

There's also some flaws with what you say. My runs have never had "plenty" of healers. It hasn't had one. It's just had someone with aura.
Guaranteed damage - that is nice. Did you know, my Sireth while blitzing is more than 200 per hit?
Happens to have no save either.

But you didn't solve the problem.

Recommending to drop two feats (Yeah, what'm I dropping? E. Toughness? Master of forms? Overwhelming crit) gimps either your melee damage, or your health.
Where do I have room for light spellpower?
Where am I getting more sp from? As I'm against the concept of "pay to win" (which you embrace), gotta find a way ;)

Seeming you don't even melee in elite, you're building a healbot - and a healbot should have maximize/empower.

firemedium_jt
09-06-2013, 11:42 PM
I can point out that I do whatever you do, without resorting to pay-to-win, thus my logic must be better, or you're a bad player mate.
I can point out that I solo'd heroic elite because waiting on PUGs is boring - I'm a walking balanced party.

There's also some flaws with what you say. My runs have never had "plenty" of healers. It hasn't had one. It's just had someone with aura.
Guaranteed damage - that is nice. Did you know, my Sireth while blitzing is more than 200 per hit?
Happens to have no save either.

But you didn't solve the problem.

Recommending to drop two feats (Yeah, what'm I dropping? E. Toughness? Master of forms? Overwhelming crit) gimps either your melee damage, or your health.
Where do I have room for light spellpower?
Where am I getting more sp from? As I'm against the concept of "pay to win" (which you embrace), gotta find a way ;)

Seeming you don't even melee in elite, you're building a healbot - and a healbot should have maximize/empower.

Unless I am missing something Epic Toughness is not needed unless you have less than CLR17 and are really not a healer. You can heal yourself easily. You can take Maximize instead of epic toughness. Your burst healing will be better, and you have more flexibility. But really this is for players that are new to Clerics.

You should not be waiting much for pugs if you are a Cleric that heals others, so you don't have to solo so much. lol. By your own admission it sounds like you mainly just heal yourself in melee combat, and click those melee clicks. Maybe something is wrong there, but really healing is so easy that you are probably fine. Clerics rarely wait for groups to form. Main reason I like them.

As for the pay to play argument. That is an old song. This is not my life and not a crack habit for me. Sometimes I am too tried from working and just get on the forums or auction house. The goal is to get by with a minimum amount of grinding because I don't have the time or the energy to give a dam. Cleric is a class that easily allows that. A nickel a pot is worth every little bit the pennies that it costs me for just in case. It is worse than that. The Raid Timers helps me raise money when the devs rev up the power creep about once a year with expansions. lol. You Free to play types that spend hours grinding instead of nickels on the dollar need P2P our the servers will shut down, and you will to find some other thing to make a bad habit of. I actually rarely use the pots. It is a way to save time if someone blunders in a quest, so we get a completion. Time is money. And the developers know that too hence why these things are for sale by them ;)

I don't know where you get all this that I don't melee in elite content cause I do a lot. Mainly with mobs to conserve sp for boss fights.

You see all that bragging about gear is less important 6 months from now when the devs gimp it. You will never stay ahead of the developers. So you choose to play their games. I don't.

I choose to be patient. I wait for the young punks to figure things out wasting their time and lives away (probably because they are young and have less responsibility) After they figure things out I go on the forums and enjoy getting around the non sense and not grinding. That is half the fun!

I am trying to figure out why you are short on melee feats unless you are a pure Cleric?

Soulfurnace
09-07-2013, 12:11 AM
Unless I am missing something Epic Toughness is not needed unless you have less than CLR17 and are really not a healer. You can heal yourself easily. You can take Maximize instead of epic toughness. Your burst healing will be better, and you have more flexibility. But really this is for players that are new to Clerics.

You should not be waiting much for pugs if you are a Cleric that heals others, so you don't have to solo so much. lol. By your own admission it sounds like you mainly just heal yourself in melee combat, and click those melee clicks. Maybe something is wrong there, but really healing is so easy that you are probably fine. Clerics rarely wait for groups to form. Main reason I like them.

As for the pay to play argument. That is an old song. This is not my life and not a crack habit for me. Sometimes I am too tried from working and just get on the forums or auction house. The goal is to get by with a minimum amount of grinding because I don't have the time or the energy to give a dam. Cleric is a class that easily allows that. A nickel a pot is worth every little bit the pennies that it costs me for just in case. It is worse than that. The Raid Timers helps me raise money when the devs rev up the power creep about once a year with expansions. lol. You Free to play types that spend hours grinding instead of nickels on the dollar need P2P our the servers will shut down, and you will to find some other thing to make a bad habit of. I actually rarely use the pots. It is a way to save time if someone blunders in a quest, so we get a completion. Time is money. And the developers know that too hence why these things are for sale by them ;)

I don't know where you get all this that I don't melee in elite content cause I do a lot. Mainly with mobs to conserve sp for boss fights.

You see all that bragging about gear is less important 6 months from now when the devs gimp it. You will never stay ahead of the developers. So you choose to play their games. I don't.

I choose to be patient. I wait for the young punks to figure things out wasting their time and lives away (probably because they are young and have less responsibility) After they figure things out I go on the forums and enjoy getting around the non sense and not grinding. That is half the fun!

I am trying to figure out why you are short on melee feats unless you are a pure Cleric?

By your admission, you healbot in EE. You don't do anything much. 50 hp isn't amazing, but it helps, strangely enough. Burst healing is meh - I'd rather use my turns on aura. The people I play with don't even need aura, it just helps. From what I've seen, they're either 100% fine, or they'll go down damn fast - neither of which a better burst helps.

I shouldn't be waiting for PUGs? I don't have time to wait. Servers are dead. I can sit there and wait, or I can laugh and solo the quest - typically easier than a PUG and I don't need to deal with people telling me how to play. :P

Your argument is sheer stupidity. You do not know what I buy. I'm a VIP, because that 10% xp is cheaper than buying xp pots. I pre-order expansions, knowing they'll suck, because I frankly can.
I bought a bunch of raid timers, because I don't see them as pay to win, nor an advantage. I still need to put in the time to run the raid, still need to find a PUG group (never fun), still need to deal with loot drama.

As for sp pots, you are actually paying to beat the quest. I don't spend hours grinding, unless it's raid items. Poor you, you actually need to do that as well - or not get them. :)

Elite and Epic Elite requires a balanced group IMHO. If you want a Cleric to be effective casting or melee in EE and Elite content you need so much gear that it is just not worth my time.

I am casual and casual with gear.

After all you will always be best at healing. Everything else is just flavor for Hard and Epic Hard when you just want to save time and get it done.
So, based off that: You don't like grinding, you can't buy raid loot, so you aren't geared in the best gear - but you need that to melee in EE? So, you don't.
You also think melee clerics in EE is flavour, and we should healbot. Go, go healbot. I have things to kill.

If your gear sucks now, it'll suck more in 6 months time, but you don't play that game - you're fine with bad gear, just pay more money to turbine. ;)

What do we "young punks" figure out? Half the fun is learning, but if you enjoy being told what to do and how to do it, well. Each to their own.

Short of melee feats?
I have GTHF, Master of Forms, E. Toughness, Overwhelming crit and dodge. I have melee feats covered, thanks.
It's throwing on two caster feats that's the issue.
Now, answer my question. Where am I getting more ap to lower maximize/emp spell from?
Where am I getting one more red slot for light spellpower?
Where am I getting gear to make up for losing 80 hp for dropping E. Toughness. (Which, due to healbotting, you don't need :P)

firemedium_jt
09-07-2013, 08:37 AM
By your admission, you healbot in EE. You don't do anything much. 50 hp isn't amazing, but it helps, strangely enough. Burst healing is meh - I'd rather use my turns on aura. The people I play with don't even need aura, it just helps. From what I've seen, they're either 100% fine, or they'll go down damn fast - neither of which a better burst helps.

I shouldn't be waiting for PUGs? I don't have time to wait. Servers are dead. I can sit there and wait, or I can laugh and solo the quest - typically easier than a PUG and I don't need to deal with people telling me how to play. :P

Your argument is sheer stupidity. You do not know what I buy. I'm a VIP, because that 10% xp is cheaper than buying xp pots. I pre-order expansions, knowing they'll suck, because I frankly can.
I bought a bunch of raid timers, because I don't see them as pay to win, nor an advantage. I still need to put in the time to run the raid, still need to find a PUG group (never fun), still need to deal with loot drama.

As for sp pots, you are actually paying to beat the quest. I don't spend hours grinding, unless it's raid items. Poor you, you actually need to do that as well - or not get them. :)



So, based off that: You don't like grinding, you can't buy raid loot, so you aren't geared in the best gear - but you need that to melee in EE? So, you don't.
You also think melee clerics in EE is flavour, and we should healbot. Go, go healbot. I have things to kill.

If your gear sucks now, it'll suck more in 6 months time, but you don't play that game - you're fine with bad gear, just pay more money to turbine. ;)

What do we "young punks" figure out? Half the fun is learning, but if you enjoy being told what to do and how to do it, well. Each to their own.

Short of melee feats?
I have GTHF, Master of Forms, E. Toughness, Overwhelming crit and dodge. I have melee feats covered, thanks.
It's throwing on two caster feats that's the issue.
Now, answer my question. Where am I getting more ap to lower maximize/emp spell from?
Where am I getting one more red slot for light spellpower?
Where am I getting gear to make up for losing 80 hp for dropping E. Toughness. (Which, due to healbotting, you don't need :P)


Well we can go back and forth about the kind of players we are and who is right. I will just say I laugh more than you about this ;) It is good to get another way of doing things on here because there is too much Epic Elite max gear grind grind grind your life away advice on here. Many giving the wrong newbie advice saying you need this and that to do something or you suck. They say I play my toon my way which is fine, but that you can't do it if you don't get all this gear non sense. I disagree with that and even more so on a Cleric.

Now for spell power I have the Holy Symbol of Lolith. Bought it or trade RTB for it.

For melee I use the Epic Antique Greatax.

Most gear is commendation Cleric, Wizwar, and PDK. Cleric comm I rarely use. Just for healing EE. Wizwar because I have just have a greensteel conop. SP greensteel is not needed with Wizwar now. PDK gear is worn for melee after buffing. This involves a little grinding, but no time restriction and you can play though ransacks. I also just use the Drow gear. Just the goggles and Cloak. The goggles are so so now with all the seeker gear, so I might wear my Conop goggles again for HP.

I have my moments of grinding, but it is not common for me.

All this gear involved a little bit of grinding but nothing like the raid type grinding that goes on for months. Got the EAGA in a week. I did that by vetting toons to make sure they did not need mats and offering a raid timer bypass to those the got a EAGA mat for me. Most were just nice to help. The EAGA has Devotion on its red slot.

I have my shortcut bars setup to swap gear easily.

I might have less melee clickies than you but still easily do it by having an organized UI. Many of the default keys are reassigned by me with a CNTRL key infront of them.

E = divine power item (used for surprised attacked emergency click) Most of the time I just keep it running in the background
Q = melee damage buff action boost
R = select self
T = Lay Waste
G = Momentum Swing
V = Great Cleave
C= Cleave
X = Divine Punishment (max spell power)
Z = Blade Barrier (max spell Power)

Keyboard 1-6 heals/cures and SLA

b,n,h,j,k,l,y,u are also assigned stuff for one touch for Aura and other buffs rarely used like rage and haste.

M,I,O are default Map, Inventory, and Social

I also use a Naga Mouse to make things easier than this, lol. I love that thing. All you need on the mouse is your best Emergency heal/cure for yourself and others.

Most healing is easy stacking Heal/Mass Heal/Heal Scrolls. You should have 100 Heal Scrolls Minimum.

I also have 100 Teleport Scrolls cause more my Clerics have 3 Classes for melee including WIZ1 for another feat. It is how you get feats. The more feats you have the more Epic Destinies are open to you.

For those of you that like to run all the EDs all you need is Cleave for Legendary Dreadnought and Spell Focus feat to open up the ED for them. You don't need Great Cleave or Greater Spell Focus to get EDs.

Now Spell Penetration is another animal, so you might need to stay pure and have both spell pen feats to get Epic Spell Pen I think. For a first life this is probably not worth it.

I have never TR'd in 3-4 years. I know that in 6-12 months the devs will get me closer. I casually follow them. I don't try to beat them. They will always win.

Glad to see you support the game in your own way Soulfurnance. Most probably support it more than me. I gave up on VIP and just buy more points now. I like flexibility. VIP would be worth it if they gave more points with it.




It is easy to run all the clicks if you setup the UI right. I showed you how I get my light power. It is not the best spell power, but efficient gear wise. I don't need the best gear. I want the best gear bang for buck or bang for time. Time and money go hand in hand with me.


Maximize is even more worth it now that they gimped spell power from Heroic enhancements.

Of course I am not as good as you gear wise, but I am close with a lot less time spent doing boring repetitive non sense.

Don't be a slave to the power creep ;)

firemedium_jt
09-07-2013, 09:39 AM
!!!!!!!!!!!! Maximize is free spell power with all the new SLAs !!!!!!!!!!!


SLAs rock and almost gimp all melee clerics with the damage they put out. The new SLAs at least humble my melee output Soulfurnace, and I bet they would yours too.

The new spell rays and bolts are nice too.

smeggy1384
09-07-2013, 05:18 PM
Hi!

I'm a returning player, find this new enhncement system a bit confusing yet, I would like to hear some ideas about how to optimize a my gf's character, a cleric/fighter halfling who uses great axes.

So far there is a lvl 6 cleric/ lvl 1 fighter lawful good halfling (for flavor) I'd like to continue from here, but have that lesser lr +20 if really necessary. The char in it's second life (we TR-ed when we came back to start from lvl 1)

starting stats:
s: 15 (all lvl up here)
d: 10
c: 14
i: 12 (to have max heal, spellcraft, conc, some jump..)
w: 14
ch:13 (to use divine might later)

in previous life it was 18 cleric/2 fighter, want something similar: so a melee great axe user with spells. But the game has changed a lot.. in the past getting fighter 2 for the str enhancement was a good deal, but now there are many other sources of damage as i see, less feat requirements for prestige classes.

any idea how to develop the character? no clonk, please, i think it's too late to get rogue levels unless lr again. i was thinking 19 cleric/1 fighter, or maybe 14 cleric/6 fighter (divine might+ kensei psionic stuff fo high str)
I'd like to have big melee dps, but i also think the new spell like abilities are good options even w/o big investments (searing light for exmaple). I1d like to hear ideas about which tree is the best for this character. in the past it had the healing aura and my gf liked it.

thx

Seems to me like the goal is more of just leveling to have some fun, so we will ignore anything related to epics.

Try out the divine disciple tree for the SLAs, but be sure to pick up maximize and empower first, there is no added cost with these on the way up. I have my own divine disciple and love it, especially out in desecrated temple of vol. Won't have all the fancy bursts and such for healing, but if something is already dead before it hits you do you need the healing?

A second option would be the defensive tree, at tier 5 it gives a permanent blur, and adds the spell into the cleric book at level 3 i think. Great if you don't have a wizard/bard/sorc to pass out blur. Various stuff in the tree will boost hitpoints and armor class, making the cleric more durable when in there swinging the greataxe. Not tried one myself (i did try a mix of one with 6 cleric and 6 paladin but did not run a lot of quests), but it should be pretty tough and need less healing. I'd think grab empower heal then whatever other feats you wanted.

Soulfurnace
09-07-2013, 07:21 PM
!!!!!!!!!!!! Maximize is free spell power with all the new SLAs !!!!!!!!!!!


SLAs rock and almost gimp all melee clerics with the damage they put out. The new SLAs at least humble my melee output Soulfurnace, and I bet they would yours too.

The new spell rays and bolts are nice too.
Cool story. If the SLA's "gimp" your melee cleric (not that gimping it would be hard, based off what you've said), you should probly build for spells.
Mate, I'm done arguing with you. You refuse to even listen to logic, instead spouting out the same stuff you have from the start. (except you now contradict yourself)

If I can solo EE, it's viable. Now go away, maybe go outside. Us "young punks" have some things to do.

firemedium_jt
09-07-2013, 10:23 PM
Cool story. If the SLA's "gimp" your melee cleric (not that gimping it would be hard, based off what you've said), you should probly build for spells.
Mate, I'm done arguing with you. You refuse to even listen to logic, instead spouting out the same stuff you have from the start. (except you now contradict yourself)

If I can solo EE, it's viable. Now go away, maybe go outside. Us "young punks" have some things to do.

You are in the minority on this thread and most of the forum, but that is ok. I like the advice that bucks the tends, but you seem to be critical of those that do that too which is really funny. It does not sound like you gimped your healing much. That is hard to do on a Cleric, and most others don't care what you do as long as you can heal or whatever it is your static group likes because it sounds like you don't pug much for some reason.

Soulfurnace
09-07-2013, 10:27 PM
You are in the minority on this thread and most of the forum, but that is ok. I like the advice that bucks the tends, but you seem to be critical of those that do that too which is really funny. It does not sound like you gimped your healing much. That is hard to do on a Cleric, and most others don't care what you do as long as you can heal or whatever it is your static group likes because it sounds like you don't pug much for some reason.
I either PUG or solo. I don't healbot, ever. I just tend to group with decent players, strangely enough.

Makkuroi
09-08-2013, 03:17 AM
I think a str-based, melee destiny battle cleric should go for full radiant servant with aura. I still think maximize is a must even when str based, but Id skip empower and heighten.
-all out melee has problems with spellpower feats and gear, and no DCs
-time casting spells is less time meleeing, at probably lower damage

My wis-based clonk in GMoF can melee, but is going for divine disciple, with rs only at burst level and maybe endless turning. With high evo DCs, the SLAs make more sense even though they are not the only source of damage. I might consider a respec if I notice that divine disciple SLAs just dont cut it at epic level (which i suspect), but it will be fun leveling up.

Soulfurnace
09-08-2013, 04:38 AM
I think a str-based, melee destiny battle cleric should go for full radiant servant with aura. I still think maximize is a must even when str based, but Id skip empower and heighten.
-all out melee has problems with spellpower feats and gear, and no DCs
-time casting spells is less time meleeing, at probably lower damage
Full radiant? Max radiant tree? That seems.. silly. Other trees offer things to increase dps (by a lot), saves, positive energy, etc.

The rest is all down to opinion and I'm frankly done arguing opinions on this thread. I've stated mine.. once or twice. lol

Makkuroi
09-08-2013, 07:40 AM
By full radiant I mean going tier 5 for the aura, shutting you out from other tier 5 enhancements. DD tier 5 is flame strike and some casting stuff, and protector I dont even remember, cant have been too attractive.

firemedium_jt
09-08-2013, 08:35 PM
Neg energy burst is really a nice touch during melee tosoften them up and cheap with all metas on. I love it. You really need maximize for it too.

Necrotic Ray is my fav spell when I ran my Pale Master with guaranteed neg lvl each hit. I dont use metas for it. It is 5x the cost for 2x damage. Metas dont help it as much, but it is great for weakening orange/red names. No spell resistance and the save is just for the damage. No save or SR for the guaranteed neg lvl. Cheap at 10 sp.

I tried the positive version but the blindness just does not seem as effective. It can be saved against. The damage is a little more for the spells. Instead of going force and light I just went universal spell power.

Makkuroi
09-09-2013, 07:30 AM
I think ill go positive DD, damage is slightly better and works against undead and constructs, plus the blindness helps getting sneaks from ninja spy in. Of course Ill take general spellpower for healing, blade barrier, light and fire, and evo DCs on the last tiers. I just got that +4 evo necklace with min lvl 15 from wheelon, which will help with implosions etc.

heroic evo dcs:

10
+9 (spell level/heighten)
+3 feats (sorc PL, wiz active PL, evo focus)
+4 item
+2 enh
+1x from wis

38+x

epic:
+3 GMoF wis
+3 Magister evo twist
+x more wis from gear and epic wisdom

guardianx2009
09-11-2013, 07:35 AM
Neg energy burst is really a nice touch during melee tosoften them up and cheap with all metas on. I love it. You really need maximize for it too.


What is the average damage on Neg Energy Burst? I tested it with maximize (no empower) and it was ~180. Which isn't much at all. I'm not so sure it is worth the investment.



Necrotic Ray is my fav spell when I ran my Pale Master with guaranteed neg lvl each hit. I dont use metas for it. It is 5x the cost for 2x damage. Metas dont help it as much, but it is great for weakening orange/red names. No spell resistance and the save is just for the damage. No save or SR for the guaranteed neg lvl. Cheap at 10 sp.


Neg levels do not work on red names. At best it works on orange names.

Energy Drain (9th level spell) in general is more efficient at draining neg levels. Necrotic Ray drains 1 level each time, you have to cast it 5 times to get -5 levels. Energy Drain can do that in one shot (2d4 neg levels). Combo it with Enervate Scroll (1d4 neg levels) and you drain a lot more levels in the time it takes for you to cast 1, 2 necrotic rays.




I tried the positive version but the blindness just does not seem as effective. It can be saved against. The damage is a little more for the spells. Instead of going force and light I just went universal spell power.


Positive does seem to do a bit more damage in general. None of the SLAs seem as good as Avenging Light in terms of damage and sp cost, however.

I'm trying to see what all the rave about Divine Disciple is, but I just don't see how it is worth giving up the aura for.

Makkuroi
09-11-2013, 09:16 AM
In my opinion the selling points of divine disciple are the +2 evocation DCs and the general spell power. The higher SLAs are nice, but probably wont cut it at epic levels (I mostly TR). Radiant servant just doesnt offer any attack except against undead. Ill definitely try dd, if it doesnt work out at higher levels, ill get the aura. Defender seems just meh.

firemedium_jt
09-11-2013, 09:48 AM
Problem is my Cleric builds are melee, so I have no spell penetration. I splash 2-3 levels. My main build is more of a generalist. He has a +4 Wisdom tome and I did not dump wisdom. My STR and WIS are in the mid 30s.

Problem is that Energy drain can be saved against and can be spell resisted. I figure with these numbers I might miss with energy drain. That is a lose of 50 sp min if it misses. It is faster, but not more spell point efficient. Necrotic ray is guaranteed neg lvl. It is hard to waste the sp when you know it equals a heal spell unless you don't need to heal.

So how often does your energy drain miss? What are your numbers for DC and Spell Pen? How often will it miss in EH and EE?

guardianx2009
09-11-2013, 12:03 PM
A little secret: Enervation, Energy Drain spells do NOT have saves. They only have spell pen.

So to answer your question:


So how often does your energy drain miss? What are your numbers for DC and Spell Pen? How often will it miss in EH and EE?

Never, unless terrain or another mob gets in the way.



What are your numbers for DC and Spell Pen?

DCs: Mid to high 40s. Spell Pen: don't know, never bothered.




How often will it miss in EH and EE?

Never misses, I do not bother using it on mobs with SR.

firemedium_jt
09-12-2013, 02:07 PM
What is the average damage on Neg Energy Burst? I tested it with maximize (no empower) and it was ~180. Which isn't much at all. I'm not so sure it is worth the investment.



Thing is it is a SLA, so it is only 7sp. With Empower it is a little more damage. Over 200. Cheap at 7 SP for damage output. More bang for the buck vs. Blade Barrier. Blade Barrier they have to move in and out, and might have evasion on top of that.


I think Neg Energy Burst heals fellow Pale Masters?

matezzo2
09-16-2013, 03:47 AM
thanks for the replies to my question ((for some reson i couldn't post to my thread until now, when I made a new account..))

Anyway this is the build i'm decided on

18 cleric, 1 fighter, 1 ranger, great axe user

Feats:
-power attack
-cleave
-greater clerave
-maximize
-empower healing
-imp. critical slashing
-empower
-quicken spell
---epic:
-overhelming crit
-???

It will have the healing aura and reactive heal from radiant servant, then it will have the sla-s from divine disciple up to holy smite (empowered/maximized), also has a very strong burst. From protection much later it will have divine might if it worth it.. I don't know yet.
fighter gives an extra feat, haste boost, extra attack+dmg
ranger gives some saves against traps and +75 positive spell power