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View Full Version : Is Wild empathy useful?



Shade_z
08-30-2013, 10:37 AM
I'm planning to take the Deepwood Sniper enh where it adds vermin and elementals to classes that wild empathy can be used on. I wanted to know if it was worth it since I will have a low char score.
From what I can gather from ddo wiki is that both of these classes have low will saves, so even with 10 char it might be useful for a lvl 20Rng (Will DC of 1d20 + 20).
Will this enh also cause improved wild empathy to work on vermins and elementals?

Archangel_666
08-30-2013, 10:49 AM
I played around with it extensively on my Ranger when the cap was 20.

It worked more times than I expected it to, but it still failed a lot.

Particularly when fighting mobs like wolves. They'd lunge behind my character just as I went to use it and then I'd apparently be "Not Facing" them, still used up a charge of course.

Biggest problem I found on my Ranger was the simple fact that some numbskull at Turbine forgot to give Rangers the Dismiss Charm Feat...

I took the Enhancements you're talking about with the new Enhancements because hey, 75 Pos Spellpower is handy, but just as an FYI, it doesn't increase the number of Improved Wild Empathies, just the basic Wild Empathy. My Ranger is sitting at 6 Wild Empathies /3 Improved Wild Empathies.

*Edit* The other problem of course is that unlike a Cleric's Turns, A Bard's Songs or a Pally's Smites. Wild Empathies don't regen unless you Shrine. My Ranger is much like my Monk in that they both are what I would call "Endurance Characters", they just keep going unless overwhelmed. My Ranger for example has over a thousand Spell Points and so rarely Shrines, and Shrining just for the Empathies? I'll pass thanks.

Teh_Troll
08-30-2013, 10:56 AM
Not at all, I still throw it out there as things roll ones and it's kinda amusing but you cannot get a DC with a damn to rely on it.

Alfhild
08-30-2013, 11:00 AM
[QUOTE=Shade_z;5083804]I'm planning to take the Deepwood Sniper enh where it adds vermin and elementals to classes that wild empathy can be used on. I wanted to know if it was worth it since I will have a low char score./QUOTE]
As Archangel mentioned, it is definitely worth taking for the extra positive spellpower. Used in conjunction with Empowered Healing, a Devotion item/augment and Healing Amp, your Cures become much more powerful and your Rejuv Cocoon (twisted from Primal Avatar) becomes incredibly powerful. Getting 75 Pos Spellpower is so good that there are Clerics splashing a level of Ranger just to get it.

Shade_z
08-30-2013, 11:01 AM
I took the Enhancements you're talking about with the new Enhancements because hey, 75 Pos Spellpower is handy, but just as an FYI, it doesn't increase the number of Improved Wild Empathies, just the basic Wild Empathy. My Ranger is sitting at 6 Wild Empathies /3 Improved Wild Empathies.

Yup, I noticed that too, but does improved wild empathy start working on elementals and vermins too? And are the uses for both independent, making it 6 +3?

Alfhild
08-30-2013, 11:01 AM
I'm planning to take the Deepwood Sniper enh where it adds vermin and elementals to classes that wild empathy can be used on. I wanted to know if it was worth it since I will have a low char score.
As Archangel mentioned, it is definitely worth taking for the extra positive spellpower. Used in conjunction with Empowered Healing, a Devotion item/augment and Healing Amp, your Cures become much more powerful and your Rejuv Cocoon (twisted from Primal Avatar) becomes incredibly powerful. Getting 75 Pos Spellpower is so good that there are Clerics splashing a level of Ranger just to get it.

Shade_z
08-30-2013, 11:04 AM
Spellpower is definitely nice, but I was wondering if I could get something extra too :D

I found these 2 links on the wiki which points to lower will saves. So for a pure ranger it just might work.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Elemental_type
http://ddowiki.com/page/Vermin

Archangel_666
08-30-2013, 11:10 AM
Yup, I noticed that too, but does improved wild empathy start working on elementals and vermins too? And are the uses for both independent, making it 6 +3?

The answer is: Yes and No.

You can indeed use them independently, however be aware:

1: It "Pacify's" them, i.e. it essentially dazes them, it doesn't charm them. *Edit for Clarity* Improved Wild Empathy when used on things like Ellies.

2: My Ranger is level 24, holding 25 and has 24 Wisdom with Ship Buffs, most Rangers don't have that much and against mobs I'd be facing at that level it's pointless. Mob Saves are high enough to be a challenge to Enchantment specced Arcanes, which basically means that you don't have a Whelk's chance in a Supernova of landing it anything more than on a fluke.*Second Edit* I forgot that it uses Charisma as your modifier, rather than Wisdom. Still, I'm sitting at 20 Charisma and have a DC 35 Will Save to resist on them.

Alfhild
08-30-2013, 11:21 AM
Spellpower is definitely nice, but I was wondering if I could get something extra too :D

I found these 2 links on the wiki which points to lower will saves. So for a pure ranger it just might work.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Elemental_type
http://ddowiki.com/page/Vermin
It's a matter of opportunity cost. The time clicking Wild Empathy 3 times to get it to possibly land is better spent clicking ranged or melee specials to kill that mob outright. Even on Wilderness and non-Hard, non-Elite instanced mobs, it will be resisted often. In harder content, it will not land unless they roll a 1 (or have been massively debuffed by other clases). Given infinite Wild Empathy uses, you would still kill a mob faster than the time it would take to get it to land.

Shade_z
08-30-2013, 11:24 AM
The answer is: Yes and No.

You can indeed use them independently, however be aware:

1: It "Pacify's" them, i.e. it essentially dazes them, it doesn't charm them. *Edit for Clarity* Improved Wild Empathy when used on things like Ellies.

2: My Ranger is level 24, holding 25 and has 24 Wisdom with Ship Buffs, most Rangers don't have that much and against mobs I'd be facing at that level it's pointless. Mob Saves are high enough to be a challenge to Enchantment specced Arcanes, which basically means that you don't have a Whelk's chance in a Supernova of landing it anything more than on a fluke.*Second Edit* I forgot that it uses Charisma as your modifier, rather than Wisdom. Still, I'm sitting at 20 Charisma and have a DC 35 Will Save to resist on them.

So basically it's just good for the spell power at higher levels.
Also just curious how much the DCs do those casters get, since on a good roll, the DC for this can be as high as 20+28+4(52, assuming 18 char and a 20 roll).

Talon_Moonshadow
08-30-2013, 11:26 AM
Works sometimes; fails sometimes.

Single target

Long cool down; especially for Improved WE.

The will stand there for five minutes while you beat on them.
Or follow you around for five minutes for Improved (not sure if this works for vermin and elementals..heard it does not, but that was before the enhancement update)

Non-dispelable!! So better make sure they are not a required kill or you will be standing there for five minutes with a party of angry Barbarians.

Works through many types of barriers. (not always a good thing either BTW....I'm looking at you charmed Worg that wouldn't get out of the way of my rat, and couldn't be attacked either....)



I use it when I can.
I fail more often in epics than I would like. (I also find it difficult to hit a moving target with it)

...and I try my best to remember not to use it in certain places. (hint, bad idea in first room of LoD.)

Archangel_666
08-30-2013, 11:29 AM
So basically it's just good for the spell power at higher levels.

In short: Yes.



Also just curious how much the DCs do those casters get, since on a good roll, the DC for this can be as high as 20+28+4(52, assuming 18 char and a 20 roll).

I don't have an Enchantment specced Wizzy, to compare, but I do have experience with my Monk's Kukan-Do which has a Will Save, so I can tell you that in the later part of the game, their Will Saves are...quite high...

Shade_z
08-30-2013, 11:36 AM
In short: Yes.




I don't have an Enchantment specced Wizzy, to compare, but I do have experience with my Monk's Kukan-Do which has a Will Save, so I can tell you that in the later part of the game, their Will Saves are...quite high...

I heard its high for most stuff in epic..is it that high even for the elementals and vermins, which are supposed to have low will saves as per the wiki?

Archangel_666
08-30-2013, 11:44 AM
I heard its high for most stuff in epic..is it that high even for the elementals and vermins, which are supposed to have low will saves as per the wiki?

Honest answer? I couldn't tell you. After my findings after playing around with them back when the cap was 20, I just abandoned the idea. Because let's face it, Mob Saves have not stayed static or decreased as the level has increased.

Rhaphael
09-02-2013, 02:12 AM
Works sometimes; fails sometimes.

Single target

Long cool down; especially for Improved WE.

The will stand there for five minutes while you beat on them.
Or follow you around for five minutes for Improved (not sure if this works for vermin and elementals..heard it does not, but that was before the enhancement update)

Non-dispelable!! So better make sure they are not a required kill or you will be standing there for five minutes with a party of angry Barbarians.

Works through many types of barriers. (not always a good thing either BTW....I'm looking at you charmed Worg that wouldn't get out of the way of my rat, and couldn't be attacked either....)



I use it when I can.
I fail more often in epics than I would like. (I also find it difficult to hit a moving target with it)

...and I try my best to remember not to use it in certain places. (hint, bad idea in first room of LoD.)

The first time I used it was in Servants of the Overlord to charm spiders....big mistake because they are a required kill to proceed. I did have the Dismiss Charm feat from 1 Bard level, but apparently it doesn't work on the ranger charm, back then I thought it bugged but I guess it simply doesn't work.

There is another use for Wild Empathy:
Flight, part of the Druid Nature's Warrior enhancements (ML 2) gives +10% dodge for up to 36s by using a Wild Empathy charge.

96th_Malice
09-02-2013, 11:15 AM
Worst skill in ranger history !

redoubt
09-02-2013, 12:41 PM
Its just **** that they are stuffing on us to get back what used to be a relatively cheap way to get spell power.

Alfhild
09-02-2013, 02:27 PM
Its just **** that they are stuffing on us to get back what used to be a relatively cheap way to get spell power.
1 AP in old system gave 20 Positive Spell Power; 1 AP in new system gives 15 PSP.
2AP in old system did not exist; 2 AP in news system gives 30 PSP.
3 AP in old system gave 40 PSP; 3 AP in new gives 45.
6AP in old system gave 60 PSP; 5 AP in news gives 75
10AP in in old system gave 80 AP; for half of that AP cost you get 5 less SP.
So the only situation where the new system is bad is if you only invested 1 AP which quite frankly was really not worth investing in at all.