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View Full Version : So, how's the build diversity?



Seilan
08-29-2013, 04:12 AM
Hi everyone, I'm a new player and I've been doing more research lately than I've actually spent playing. Prior to starting up, I had read that DDO was very good in terms of character development/building, but most of what I read predates this newest enhancement system change.

That said, I was wondering if the game still sports a decent amount of character specialization, or if it ends up being a "One build to rule them all" kind of situation later on? I know true individuality is impossible in this genre, but it's nice to find a middle ground where there's at least some viable variety for each class.

Anyway, just wanted to get some opinions from the veterans of the game.

Thanks in advance.

FranOhmsford
08-29-2013, 04:47 AM
Us forumites complain a lot but there's literally hundreds of possible builds in DDO!

Yes at end-game the general consensus and peer pressure pushes people towards certain builds but by no means is that all there is.

lyrecono
08-29-2013, 05:33 AM
for all ddo problems in the past, the character generation and building freedom is what kept me here so far.

You can build just about anything but there are a few rules though
alignment is a limmeting factor,
certain feats require a minimum number in a stat.
You can't cast spells or use magic devices whill using the barbarian rage etc

ddo wiki is your best source for finding those rules out, as is this forum (look for the class threads)
also: in game you'll be able to find many veteran players who can help you, don't be shy to ask advice in game (and ignore the harbor trolls!).

i would advice you to avoid the wayfinder server for now, turbine tries to populate it by making it the first server for new players but finding enough people online, let allone those willing to help you in english is lower than any other server.

There are character generators out there but they need an upgrade in the wake of the enhancement pass.
keep checking the boards for it!

have fun!

Soulfurnace
08-29-2013, 05:41 AM
DDO has the most fluid and diverse build options of any game I've played. (coming from a nerd)

You can make anything, and it will be viable, assuming you do it right. (Yes, even my staff wielding cleric... Who didn't bother with rogue levels. Hah!)

For end game (epic elite) you're pressured into a certain type of build - not a specific build. (Although that Juggernaut...) That type of build is dps w/ self healing, preferably with some form of CC. (at least in my experience)

In short: You can make any concept you want, but be prepared to make sacrifices if you want it to be viable for the harder content. (And the hardest content... More sacrifices, less flavour. Sorry, but you need to strike a balance.) While there isn't a build that rules them all, there are a few of the best builds that are popular. (Yes, even Shiradi sorc has flaws.)

zwiebelring
08-29-2013, 05:53 AM
Hi everyone, I'm a new player and I've been doing more research lately than I've actually spent playing. Prior to starting up, I had read that DDO was very good in terms of character development/building, but most of what I read predates this newest enhancement system change.

That said, I was wondering if the game still sports a decent amount of character specialization, or if it ends up being a "One build to rule them all" kind of situation later on? I know true individuality is impossible in this genre, but it's nice to find a middle ground where there's at least some viable variety for each class.

Anyway, just wanted to get some opinions from the veterans of the game.

Thanks in advance.
The diversity changed to what is considered being *cookiecutter* but it is still there. You have many incentives to have a deep multiclass split rather than staying pure now.

But within all new options there will be only a few, which peak out and are useful in epic elite, depending on what you want to achieve and which role you want to have.

And then there are the bugs, which render new enhancements usless so you might want to be careful. Bard song increases don't work, Barbarian trees seem to be broky(;P) and such.

ReaperAlexEU
08-29-2013, 06:12 AM
a lot will depend on your chosen type of end game too. as mentioned the hardest end game content (epic elites) do push any build to its limits making things a bit more restrictive.

that said you can play this game for years without ever needing to do the epic elites. we have quite a diverse set of options at end game and some can be great for messing about with different builds that are viable but not optimal (epic elites pushes you more towards optimal)

FuzzyDuck81
08-29-2013, 07:54 AM
DDO has always had a great many possible builds, and while a great many of them can be utterly pants, there have always been plenty of very viable (if not necessarily the most optimal) options... with the recent enhancement pass, there are even more possibilities that have opened up & even more things (such as multiple caster classes) are viable & effective now where before generally most people would shun them & throw rocks.

vhortex
08-29-2013, 11:10 AM
Hi everyone, I'm a new player and I've been doing more research lately than I've actually spent playing. Prior to starting up, I had read that DDO was very good in terms of character development/building, but most of what I read predates this newest enhancement system change.


I am still using 2 chars with builds recommend for update 9, the build is still useful but not on par with how players tell as maximum damage.. While I was new here.. I tried to follow peoples advises on how things should be, how much of this and that should go.. then later I realize that it is not the main game plan that I need. I don't need to follow the min/max guys but learn how to use my character despite a bad choice was made and adjust each recommendation base on how I play..

Try 1 char, ask people on opinion but try to ask the cons and the pros if take this X feat and this X stat.. Most of the things posted here in the forum are for vets and not for the newbies..

Bottom line, it is how you play your char and not your gear that matters more.. but more gears and correct build will make your game life easier.. one of I can recommend is to first find a decent guild with willing vets to guide you, they can also help you collect your gears and in leveling you up

Seilan
08-30-2013, 02:41 AM
Thanks for the great responses everyone :). I can understand that at the pinnacle of end game content, the optimal builds become something of a necessary evil, but seeing as I'm more of a casual player these days anyway, it would likely be quite a while before I delved into that kind of territory. For the time being, I don't think I'll worry myself much with it.

In any case, I'm glad I now have a better idea on how things play out later on. Thanks again for the help guys :).


Edit: By the way, I'd rep you all, but for some reason, I'm not seeing the rep icon anymore. I've been having some on-going issues with the forum for the last week or so (I couldn't post at all until just recently), and it looks like some of the bugs are still plaguing me.

Soulfurnace
08-30-2013, 02:51 AM
Thanks for the great responses everyone :). I can understand that at the pinnacle of end game content, the optimal builds become something of a necessary evil, but seeing as I'm more of a casual player these days anyway, it would likely be quite a while before I delved into that kind of territory. For the time being, I don't think I'll worry myself much with it.

In any case, I'm glad I now have a better idea on how things play out later on. Thanks again for the help guys :).
If you've got a build idea you want help to flesh out, throw it over to here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/21-Classes), and people (all more skilled than I) will help ya. (Or, of course, if you want a build critiqued)

eachna_gislin
08-31-2013, 05:50 AM
Hi everyone, I'm a new player and I've been doing more research lately than I've actually spent playing. Prior to starting up, I had read that DDO was very good in terms of character development/building, but most of what I read predates this newest enhancement system change.

That said, I was wondering if the game still sports a decent amount of character specialization, or if it ends up being a "One build to rule them all" kind of situation later on? I know true individuality is impossible in this genre, but it's nice to find a middle ground where there's at least some viable variety for each class.

Anyway, just wanted to get some opinions from the veterans of the game.

Thanks in advance.

There's no single build that does everything or is 'best' ... but there are some clear winners for particular roles.

Most pure classes are viable. There are joking comments that some classes (paladin, bard) are useless, but they're certainly not. They just fit particular niches many players don't enjoy. That said, where DDO shines is allowing you to mix and match classes to do a main role "plus" something else (heals + melee, crowd control + trapping, etc).

There's been a really strong push for self sufficiency. As the player base shrinks, it becomes harder to fill "balanced" parties where each toon is working to be best at their single role. These days people look for ways to maximize flexibility while minimizing dilution.

Therigar
08-31-2013, 04:57 PM
There's been a really strong push for self sufficiency. As the player base shrinks, it becomes harder to fill "balanced" parties where each toon is working to be best at their single role. These days people look for ways to maximize flexibility while minimizing dilution.

Not a fan of the self sufficiency approach. Builds can clearly be stronger if groups work more on each character filling a specific role than if groups require each member to be self sufficient.

The fact that there is so much emphasis on self sufficiency is more of an indicator that content is easy. This, in turn, is a nod to what players wanted as there is a large emphasis on solo play rather than group play.

There is, elsewhere, a thread on U19 builds but I don't think any of them really show much insight as they are often just rewords of old builds. IMO it will be a while before the real impact of the update is felt and genuinely new builds emerge out of the update.

EllisDee37
08-31-2013, 05:03 PM
Not a fan of the self sufficiency approach. Builds can clearly be stronger if groups work more on each character filling a specific role than if groups require each member to be self sufficient.Not a fan of dependent builds, which are clearly more vulnerable if a) they need to split up, or b) if a key member gets a lag spike or DCs. Self-sufficient builds can carry along fine pretty much regardless what happens, while dependent builds need to wait for a specific groups and then may need to restart the quest again if something unexpected happens.

Regarding splitting up the party, I'm talking about quests that require it, not splitting up to get faster completions. However, that's another drawback of dependent characters.

Therigar
09-01-2013, 05:51 PM
Not a fan of dependent builds, which are clearly more vulnerable if a) they need to split up, or b) if a key member gets a lag spike or DCs. Self-sufficient builds can carry along fine pretty much regardless what happens, while dependent builds need to wait for a specific groups and then may need to restart the quest again if something unexpected happens.

Regarding splitting up the party, I'm talking about quests that require it, not splitting up to get faster completions. However, that's another drawback of dependent characters.

There are very few quests that require splitting the party. Those that do generally require something very specific or can be dealt with by mini-groups that are well designed.

The real issue is that players "need to wait for a specific groups" as you say. This is not much of an issue for static groups since they, by definition, are composed of players who regularly join together. But it is an issue for pick up groups. It is also an issue for guild groups when the guild isn't also fairly static.

But, that does not change the observation that mutually dependent characters can be stronger than mutually independent characters. The question is whether this is needed.

My observation is that the game is relatively easy and that the player base so strongly favors soloing that it is not necessary to build the strongest characters and to be mutually dependent. Being mutually independent is sufficient.

IMO the attitude this generates with players is negative though. Not all players are able to grasp how to build a character that is self-sufficient and not all character classes lend themselves to this. Even those that can function independently when soloing often have trouble as members of a group because the tools available to them are not effective in larger groups.

Some of this is the result of dungeon scaling which makes things more difficult as the group size grows. Some of it is due to forced gaming styles as most groups use a brute force approach. Brute force is often not the best approach for self-sufficient challenged classes. So, when forced into this gaming style a lot of players get left in the cold as they are not really able to keep up.

And, because of the attitudes expressed in the forums and in game this leads to a lot of negative observations about the person playing the character and their lack of skill.

Personally, I don't care if the character is highly independent or highly dependent. What I care about is whether the group is willing and able to work cooperatively together to beat the quest. If the players behind the characters are cooperative people who are not concerned about their own individual greatness but are instead interested in the success of the group then that is what matters most to me.

In groups comprised of that type of player the build does not matter.

EllisDee37
09-01-2013, 06:03 PM
But, that does not change the observation that mutually dependent characters can be stronger than mutually independent characters. The question is whether this is needed.I disagree with your general premise that mutually dependent characters are by definition stronger. Pale Masters, warforged wizards and artificers, clerics, favored souls, and even druids give up nothing to be self-sufficient. No power is sacrificed to achieve their self-sufficiency. And warforged sorcs give up very little for their self-sufficiency.

You're really just talking about melee, whose power is already so far behind casters that sacrificing a little more for self-sufficiency will be pretty much irrelevant in terms of having a balanced party, which is the only situation where the "mutually dependent for higher power" idea would come in to play anyway.

FestusHood
09-01-2013, 06:31 PM
I disagree with your general premise that mutually dependent characters are by definition stronger. Pale Masters, warforged wizards and artificers, clerics, favored souls, and even druids give up nothing to be self-sufficient. No power is sacrificed to achieve their self-sufficiency. And warforged sorcs give up very little for their self-sufficiency.

You're really just talking about melee, whose power is already so far behind casters that sacrificing a little more for self-sufficiency will be pretty much irrelevant in terms of having a balanced party, which is the only situation where the "mutually dependent for higher power" idea would come in to play anyway.

The thing about making every character self sufficient is that it limits the build diversity greatly. All arcanes needing to be either warforged or undead is a good example of this.

You told me once that you don't build characters that depend on scroll healing. Doesn't this virtually eliminate all of the non blue bar classes from consideration?

Fighters, barbs, rogues, fleshy sorcs, none of them have blue bar healing.

Also, i dont think melee is so far behind casters as you do. If you play the kill everything style as i do, sp limitations are definitely a factor, unless you are willing to drink a lot of mana potions.

In theory, silver flame pots can make anyone self sufficient to a degree. That's not a build choice however, except in making sure that you don't self-gank when you drink them.

Soulfurnace
09-01-2013, 07:52 PM
The thing about making every character self sufficient is that it limits the build diversity greatly. All arcanes needing to be either warforged or undead is a good example of this.

You told me once that you don't build characters that depend on scroll healing. Doesn't this virtually eliminate all of the non blue bar classes from consideration?

Fighters, barbs, rogues, fleshy sorcs, none of them have blue bar healing.

Also, i dont think melee is so far behind casters as you do. If you play the kill everything style as i do, sp limitations are definitely a factor, unless you are willing to drink a lot of mana potions.

Self healing fleshy arcane - heal scrolls and UMD. It's not hard, even without rogue/bard/arti splashes. Not to mention twist cocoon.

Scroll healing is fine, aside from serious "Oh sh.." moments, in which case a cleric/FvS doesn't have much time to react - unless they're find being a healbot. I find that boring though, so I'll swing my Sireth in earth stance ;)

Again, cocoon.

Melee is plenty far behind casters, don't you worry. :)

EllisDee37
09-01-2013, 08:24 PM
The thing about making every character self sufficient is that it limits the build diversity greatly. All arcanes needing to be either warforged or undead is a good example of this.This same logic argues against Therigar's point against self-sufficiency. His argument is that self-sufficient characters bring less power due to having to devote build resources to self-sufficiency. The unstated assumption in that argument is that without self-sufficiency you are building for max dps. Building for max dps limits build diversity just as much as building for self-sufficiency.


You told me once that you don't build characters that depend on scroll healing. Doesn't this virtually eliminate all of the non blue bar classes from consideration? I still maintain that. My fighter bluebar heals by going with a 12/8 fighter/cleric split. Virtually all the benefit of fighter plus bluebar healing. (And self-cast deathward, nightshield and fom, woot! heh.)

Of my 5 main alts, all 5 bluebar heal. My challenge farmer is the only one who does not, but he's a special niche case who gets by fine with light monk healing, vampirism gear and a cove flask.

FuzzyDuck81
09-02-2013, 02:09 AM
Self healing fleshy arcane - heal scrolls and UMD. It's not hard, even without rogue/bard/arti splashes. Not to mention twist cocoon.

Scroll healing is fine, aside from serious "Oh sh.." moments, in which case a cleric/FvS doesn't have much time to react - unless they're find being a healbot. I find that boring though, so I'll swing my Sireth in earth stance ;)

Again, cocoon.

Melee is plenty far behind casters, don't you worry. :)

Also half elves with the appropriate dilly, or halflings, as only 1 feat (albeit plus 11 or so APs in racial tree) is needed for dragonmarks now :)