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Chai
08-28-2013, 12:26 PM
The guitarrist who pumps iron in his off time, and you got two tickets to the gun show!!!

Human 18 bard 1 clr 1 ftr
32 points. If using 28 points, take a point out of str and cha and start at 15 each.

str 16
dex 8
con 16
int 10
wis 8
cha 16

Skills: Concentration, bluff, heal, balance, UMD, perform. Toss anything extra into diplo, a few into tumble.

Feats:
1 (human) power attack
1 force of personality (cha to will saves)
3 cleave
6 great cleave
9 quicken
12 improved crit
15 maximize / empower heal
18 Heres where you can choose from a plethora of feats. Dragonmark of finding for chest buffing for instance. Empower heal for higher numbers on cure spells. Skill focus UMD if your gear + cha mod doesnt add up to ~40. Can always be swapped out later on.
21. inspire excellence
24. overwhelming critical.

Str breakdown @ level 20 realistic for newer player. 16 start + 5 level ups + 7 item + 2 tome +1 race +1 warchanter line = 32.

Cha breakdown @ level 20 realistic for newer player. 16 start + 7 item + 2 spellsinger line + 2 tome +1 race + 2 inspire excellence = 30 (+10 mod)

Str breakdown

32 - as above with items and tome
10 - divine might from cleric enhancements
4 - skaldic rage from warchanter line
2 - inspire excellence song (at level 21)
2 - rage buff
4 - tensers transformation buff (can scroll this with UMD)
-------------------------------------
54 str. buffed
3 rage buff when in fury of the wild destiny (tier one rage buff, can be twisted as well - adds 5 but doesnt stack w/ rage spell)
--------------------------------------
57 - by level 21 - with realistically obtainable gear. Alot of these rage buffs add to con as well, so HP arent an issue. You still have the ability to cast all spells, heal yourself, and all the utility of a bard with song buffs etc....with an impressive str score and feats to back it all up with.

Destinies. Fury when DPS. Fatesinger for utility and CC. Legendary Dreadnaught for soloing.

As far as enhancements, you are not nailed down to having to take the exact same thing I did. I went more spellsinger, and you could go more warchanter for instance, depending on how you like to play. Since this class split works for multiple enhancement builds, what I took is more of a guide rather than a rulebook.

Enhancements I took are as follows.

All spellsinger core up to level 18.
3 Lingering song
3 Musical studies (I like more songs) - this is currently not adding more songs however, and if it stays that way much longer I might switch it out.
3 haunting melody.
3 flicker
Enthrallment, Sustaining song, Song of capering
Spellsong trance, song of arcane might, spellsong vigor
Both cha points
Advanced musical studies (I like more songs) - this is currently not adding more songs however, and if it stays that way much longer I might switch it out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scaldik rage
Fighting spirit
Song of heroism
3 The Poetic Edda
Enchant weapon
3 Action boost sprint
Strength
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First core in kensai
Kensai haste boost
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First core in cleric protection
3 Divine Might
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First core in radiant servant
3 Wand mastery (taking this in bard means paying 3 for wand DCs. /barf --- take it in cleric instead.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Human damage boost
Strength point
Human skill boost
Constitution point (this evened me off)
Improved recovery

mezzorco
08-28-2013, 12:51 PM
You gain +10STR from Divine Might, thanks to +2 CHA from Inspire Excellence.
Anyway, it looks fun.
With such a STR, maybe you could consider Stunning Blow.

Scrag
08-28-2013, 12:55 PM
Why quicken and maximize?

Also, are you going to be hurting for spellpoints/power with that 8 int?

Chai
08-28-2013, 01:04 PM
Why quicken and maximize?

Also, are you going to be hurting for spellpoints/power with that 8 int?

10 int + 1 more point per level for human race (and +2 tome kicking in at level 7) gets you the skills I mentioned - spell points end up being right around 1k at level 20. Quicken and maximise for ability to heal 250+ points uninterrupted in the midst of battle per use of CCW + CSW. Heal is a class skill with the cleric level, so can put 23 ranks into it. I didnt take spellcraft, due to not using offensive casting. With mana song Im not at risk of running out of mana.


You gain +10STR from Divine Might, thanks to +2 CHA from Inspire Excellence.
Anyway, it looks fun.
With such a STR, maybe you could consider Stunning Blow.

Indeed, Ill add that. Stunning blow would make a good feat for 18th, or one could shift the feats around and work it in earlier. Dc would be:

10 start
23 str mod at 57 str
10 daze weapon that adds +10 (there are weapons now that add more)
5 combat mastery
-------------------------------------------------
48 - good for heroics, and normal and hard content while leveling in epics - can get more plusses from destinies, higher str items and cha items (as this adds to str with DM)

Whitering
08-28-2013, 01:21 PM
Does the great cleave thing only affect unarmed combat? So this can be a female human?

mna
08-28-2013, 02:15 PM
Why quicken and maximize?

Also, are you going to be hurting for spellpoints/power with that 8 int?

Um, it's a bard. Spellpoints come from cha, right?



Human 18 bard 1 clr 1 ftr

Skills: Concentration, bluff, heal, balance, UMD, perform. Toss anything extra into diplo, a few into tumble.

Feats:
1 (human) power attack
1 force of personality (cha to will saves)
3 cleave
6 great cleave
9 quicken
12 improved crit
15 maximize
18 Heres where you can choose from a plethora of feats. Dragonmark of finding for chest buffing for instance. Empower heal for higher numbers on cure spells. Skill focus UMD if your gear + cha mod doesnt add up to ~40. Can always be swapped out later on.
21. inspire excellence
24. overwhelming critical.

Um.

Leveling order? And, that bonus feat at the fighter level, whenever it is? (That the stunning blow then?)

If it were my build I'd probably take ftr at 2, you can get by in Korthos without martial proficiencies OR master's touch but, well...


**Will put up the enhancements I took once I get home and can screenshot it. It includes Divine Might from cleric tree, Wand/scroll mastery from cleric, Skaldic Rage and +1 str from warchanter, All core in spellsinger up to level 18, All of the types of songs in spellsinger, and both points of Cha in spellsinger.

Hm. I see this is sort of a different build than what I'm looking for.

I'm sort of looking for a replacement build for tihocan't "revisited path" Warchanter (bard w/ 1ftr&1barb), I have one of those and... well, it's been doing fairly well so far, even up to some tanking in short bursts with the new enhancements. Yours is slightly less melee, apparently? (Heh. I do prefer having at least medium armor for melee, especially without evasion.)

That old warchanter build will have to be reworked anyway when the enhancement changes are actually finished. As in, when the stated intention of barb and skaldic rages not stacking actually happens. I only swapped WF for Cleave, so far. (And of course no quicken or much concentration because of no casting in barbarian or triple rage anyway, and...)

In the old build plan, there was just the THF line but no Cleave/GC. I assume these are there for Overwhelming Critical, partially?

Oh, and that 40 UMD - do you want that while in combat, or does swap gear suffice?

Have to look at that cleric splash still... not like a maxed Heal would add up to all THAT much, but the Divine Might is a whole another thing. Alternatively another level of ftr for a martial feat, I guess...


Keep in mind it has to be a human male for great cleave to work.

Well, mine's a female, unfortunately... didn't know about the GC issue back then and it wasn't in the original plan anyway.

voodoogroves
08-28-2013, 02:25 PM
I *LOVE* the cleric/fighter dip on a bard. Divine Might? Wand/Scroll? Haste boost + Extra Boost?

One more fighter level would get you Tactics DCs, if you were really interested in Stunning Blow. In general though, while useful, I find I have plenty of CC options on a Bard. Sure, it drops mobs into Helpless and that helps everyone but if you're short on feats I wouldn't stress too much.

I just TR'd one of my characters and I'm really considering a ranger/cleric split on top of the bard - going TWF + Manyshot for bursting.

cru121
08-28-2013, 03:03 PM
53 str. buffed
5 rage buff when in fury of the wild destiny (tier one rage buff, can be twisted as well)
--------------------------------------
59 - by level 21
Primal Scream does not stack with Rage (spell). You're looking at ~56 strength (which is still pretty nice!)

Chai
08-28-2013, 03:25 PM
Um, it's a bard. Spellpoints come from cha, right?

Yeap.


Um.

Leveling order? And, that bonus feat at the fighter level, whenever it is? (That the stunning blow then?)

If it were my build I'd probably take ftr at 2, you can get by in Korthos without martial proficiencies OR master's touch but, well...

I did bard > fighter > cleric > rest bard. That way heal is a class skill early on and can be invested in, and you have alot of bard levels in which to max out skills you want maxed out. [/QUOTE]

Its more of a melee striker and not really a tank. You can displace + ghostly or incorpreal + decent dodge percentage in order to not get hit on every swing, and carry around +20 resist pots to take away elemental damage on weapons and arrows. Irrisistible dance anything without SR, and fascinate if there are alot of mobs in a small area.


Hm. I see this is sort of a different build than what I'm looking for.

I'm sort of looking for a replacement build for tihocan't "revisited path" Warchanter (bard w/ 1ftr&1barb), I have one of those and... well, it's been doing fairly well so far, even up to some tanking in short bursts with the new enhancements. Yours is slightly less melee, apparently? (Heh. I do prefer having at least medium armor for melee, especially without evasion.)

That old warchanter build will have to be reworked anyway when the enhancement changes are actually finished. As in, when the stated intention of barb and skaldic rages not stacking actually happens. I only swapped WF for Cleave, so far. (And of course no quicken or much concentration because of no casting in barbarian or triple rage anyway, and...)

In the old build plan, there was just the THF line but no Cleave/GC. I assume these are there for Overwhelming Critical, partially?

Oh, and that 40 UMD - do you want that while in combat, or does swap gear suffice?

Have to look at that cleric splash still... not like a maxed Heal would add up to all THAT much, but the Divine Might is a whole another thing. Alternatively another level of ftr for a martial feat, I guess...

Cleric line synergies include heal full ranks + divine might + wand/scroll mastery (without having to take 3x wand heighten as a pre req) + 15 hp + magical training. Maxed heal 23 ranks + 3 mod from wisdom + 15 heal item = 41 more power to CCW + CSW - add that to the grants from adding spellsinger enhancements + power item and its good enough for rock-n-roll at keeping you alive. :p

40 UMD is more used for scrolling buffs and scrolling heals. Usually if I need that heal in combat, I use the quickened maximized CCW + CSW combo as that is not interruptable - or Im scroll healing someone else (while im not the one taking damage). Im not a big gear swapper for UMD. I can generally hit 40 near level 20 so I dont have to swap gear to pop scrolls.

As far as the stated intention of barbarian and skaldic rage not stacking, this is stated in the skaldic rage description - does not stack with barbarian rage.

Chai
08-28-2013, 03:29 PM
Primal Scream does not stack with Rage (spell). You're looking at ~56 strength (which is still pretty nice!)

Thanks, ill account for that in the edit.

Chai
08-28-2013, 03:34 PM
I *LOVE* the cleric/fighter dip on a bard. Divine Might? Wand/Scroll? Haste boost + Extra Boost?

One more fighter level would get you Tactics DCs, if you were really interested in Stunning Blow. In general though, while useful, I find I have plenty of CC options on a Bard. Sure, it drops mobs into Helpless and that helps everyone but if you're short on feats I wouldn't stress too much.

I just TR'd one of my characters and I'm really considering a ranger/cleric split on top of the bard - going TWF + Manyshot for bursting.

Sure, you could make a dwarf bard with another fighter level, come out even on feats (-1 human +1 ftr), and get tactics from both dorf and fighter, if taking stunning blow.

The ranger split is another thing Im playing with on my other bard who has more past lives, more points for stats etc. I also might be going deeper multiclass on that one.

voodoogroves
08-28-2013, 06:20 PM
Sure, you could make a dwarf bard with another fighter level, come out even on feats (-1 human +1 ftr), and get tactics from both dorf and fighter, if taking stunning blow.

The ranger split is another thing Im playing with on my other bard who has more past lives, more points for stats etc. I also might be going deeper multiclass on that one.

Ranger 6 is probably too good. It's sad, really. That deep of a splash and I hardly feel like a bard anymore ... but an extra feat or two would be awesome.

Solid first-lifer build, BTW. Like it, if you couldn't tell.

mna
08-28-2013, 07:08 PM
As far as the stated intention of barbarian and skaldic rage not stacking, this is stated in the skaldic rage description - does not stack with barbarian rage.

Well, yes, that's what it says, but not what actually happens. Watch your str while you turn both on at the same time... checking... yep, still stacks as of right now.

Oh well. That's one on the positive side; my other toon on that server is a drow, and the drow racial enhancements don't seem to do much - putting points into the racial weapon enhancements doesn't seem to have any benefit at all... guess it all about balances out.

Just waiting for when the next patch comes around.

Whitering
08-29-2013, 02:24 PM
Well, mine's a female, unfortunately... didn't know about the GC issue back then and it wasn't in the original plan anyway.

Tell me about it, my tr toon is female and well, ya, so there's only a few races she can be to be a melee with gc, which is really sucky. I was hoping it only applied to unarmed.

mna
08-29-2013, 03:02 PM
Well, yes, that's what it says, but not what actually happens. Watch your str while you turn both on at the same time... checking... yep, still stacks as of right now.
Just waiting for when the next patch comes around.

Well. U19 patch 1 is here, and the rages still seem to stack.

EllisDee37
08-29-2013, 03:21 PM
Tell me about it, my tr toon is female and well, ya, so there's only a few races she can be to be a melee with gc, which is really sucky. I was hoping it only applied to unarmed.Great Cleave should work fine on this build regardless of gender. The great cleave bug for female humans applies to unarmed (monk) attacks. The bug is that it doesn't generate offhand procs when unarmed.

For a THF build it should be irrelevant.

Charononus
08-29-2013, 03:40 PM
A couple thoughts because this is pretty similar to the bard past life I just did which was 17bard 2fighter 1 cleric.

Empower heal - gives the same bonus to cures i thought as max except for less sp cost. You aren't nuker so it may be a better option

2 fighter instead of 1 fighter gives access to the tactics enhancement and another feat letting you take stunning blow. Your str will be high enough for that to be effective at least in heroic, didn't go thru epics on mine.

Worth mentioning that besides divine might you get two spell slots from 1 cleric letting you take prot evil, and nightshield. 1 Cleric also lets you take full ranks of heal for spwr.

mezzorco
08-29-2013, 05:20 PM
Well, yes, that's what it says, but not what actually happens. Watch your str while you turn both on at the same time... checking... yep, still stacks as of right now.

It's partially wrong.

Skaldic Rage and Barbarian Rage don't exactly stack.
If you have Skaldic Rage trained, your Barbarian Rage grants you additional 4 STR, without effectively activating Skaldic Rage.

Let's say you have 1 level of barbarian and no enhancements. Your Barbarian Rage grants you 4 STR and 4 CON. But if you spend 1 AP in Skaldic Rage, without activating it, your Barbarian Rage now grants 8 STR and 4 CON.
Activating Skaldic Rage before entering Barbarian Rage is actually counterproductive, because AC penalties stack but your final strenght will be the same (the only benefit is that you'll benefit from effects requiring Skaldic Rage).

A simple 1 bard splash grants +8str/+4con rage, +10/+6 if you have 11 barb, up to +13/+9 with power/hardy rage. With no additional penalties.

MarkUCLA
09-04-2013, 07:07 PM
**Will put up the enhancements I took once I get home and can screenshot it. It includes Divine Might from cleric tree, Wand/scroll mastery from cleric, Skaldic Rage and +1 str from warchanter, All core in spellsinger up to level 18, All of the types of songs in spellsinger, and both points of Cha in spellsinger.


Howdy Chai. So if/when you get a chance could you give us an example of the enhancements you used? Thanks much.

Chai
09-06-2013, 12:53 PM
Sorry, I neglected to put the enhancements up there. Ill will update those when I have access.

Micron
09-11-2013, 06:45 AM
This is quite cool.

I'm considering respeccing my outdated bard into a 32p variant of this, with 1 cleric and 2 ranger. Ranger for the +75 pos spellpower from DWS and some archery feats replacing the cleave/OC line, to be able to take Manyshot for pew pew burst damage and for some variety (I already have two cleavers/blitzers and I'm not sure I want another one). Probably won't take Force of Personality, I usually find that between FoM, Prot from Evil wands and Good Hope (to remove crushing despairs) the lowish Will saves aren't that much of an issue.

I'm also thinking of going with Empower Healing Spell instead of Maximize, mostly to boost my Cocoon and to spend less mana on cure spells (with the Ranger pos spell power and a devotion slotted somewhere they should still heal a fair amount). Maximize doesn't seem to boost Chord of Disruption. It does seem to boost Dirge but losing that doesn't bother me so much. Am I missing anything else that's important and benefits from Maximize?

Not sure I can live without Extend, either. I really like my extended Hastes, Displacements and Rages.

EllisDee37
09-11-2013, 07:23 AM
Probably won't take Force of Personality, I usually find that between FoM, Prot from Evil wands and Good Hope (to remove crushing despairs) the lowish Will saves aren't that much of an issue.For the most part it works fine. The only thing my low-will ranger gets annoyed by is dancing ball, which originally seemed to just be in a few cannith challenges but then crept into MotU with the yugoloths. (Who are also the mobs that cast it in the challenges.) Still not a huge issue, though.

Chai
09-12-2013, 01:51 PM
This is quite cool.

I'm considering respeccing my outdated bard into a 32p variant of this, with 1 cleric and 2 ranger. Ranger for the +75 pos spellpower from DWS and some archery feats replacing the cleave/OC line, to be able to take Manyshot for pew pew burst damage and for some variety (I already have two cleavers/blitzers and I'm not sure I want another one). Probably won't take Force of Personality, I usually find that between FoM, Prot from Evil wands and Good Hope (to remove crushing despairs) the lowish Will saves aren't that much of an issue.

I'm also thinking of going with Empower Healing Spell instead of Maximize, mostly to boost my Cocoon and to spend less mana on cure spells (with the Ranger pos spell power and a devotion slotted somewhere they should still heal a fair amount). Maximize doesn't seem to boost Chord of Disruption. It does seem to boost Dirge but losing that doesn't bother me so much. Am I missing anything else that's important and benefits from Maximize?

Not sure I can live without Extend, either. I really like my extended Hastes, Displacements and Rages.

Maximize makes cures higher values, its only halved for heal and mass heal, cures still get full benefit. With cocoon twisted empower heal might be the better option.

FOP makes it so no wisdom development is really needed and cha can be more focused on with gear as it synergizes with divine might/bard DCs, and now will save. If you can metagame around getting CCd, then you might find more value using the slot for something else.

Jgizle
09-15-2013, 04:53 AM
wheres the enchantments??

there's 10 points u got to spend in war chanter to get to that +1 str enhancement and you didn't say what you got, and it has been a few days since you made your original post and no picture.

What levels do you take cleric and fighter?

What are the first 2 spells you get for bard?

This is supposed to be a guide that's new player friendly and it is not, in fact a new player would not know what to do besides how to create their character at character creation.

Please fix the post appropriately using this constructive criticism.

EllisDee37
09-15-2013, 01:35 PM
Maximize makes cures higher values, its only halved for heal and mass heal, cures still get full benefit. With cocoon twisted empower heal might be the better option.You're thinking of devotion. Maximize can't be used on heal or mass heal at all because those spells have no die roll.

Which is kind of an odd carryover. As i understand it, in PnP, maximize gives you the max roll on your damage. So if you do 3d6 damage normally, with maximize you do 18 damage. So it makes sense that it doesn't work on spells that have no roll.

But DDO doesn't work like that, so I'm not sure there's any logical reason that maximize and empower shouldn't work on heal and reconstruct. Much like how I don't think there's any logical reason why positive spell power only counts for half on heal and reconstruct.

Chai
09-16-2013, 10:17 AM
wheres the enchantments??

there's 10 points u got to spend in war chanter to get to that +1 str enhancement and you didn't say what you got, and it has been a few days since you made your original post and no picture.

What levels do you take cleric and fighter?

What are the first 2 spells you get for bard?

This is supposed to be a guide that's new player friendly and it is not, in fact a new player would not know what to do besides how to create their character at character creation.

Please fix the post appropriately using this constructive criticism.

Level order: I recommend 1bard, 1fighter, 1cleric, rest bard.

Warchanter: I took scaldik rage, fighting spirit, song of heroism for core abilities. The Poetic Edda 3, Enchant weapon (2 points), Action boost sprint.

The beautiful thing about enhancements is this class split works for multiple enhancement tree builds. Someone could decide they want to be more warchanter and less spellsinger and fill up the warchanter tree - I like to be more spellsinger while dabbling in warchanter. So a brand new player would have a hard time going wrong in either tree. That being said, Ill update with what I took when I have access.

Just added enhancements to the OP.

GrantAnderson
10-21-2013, 01:56 AM
Level order: I recommend 1bard, 1fighter, 1cleric, rest bard.

Warchanter: I took scaldik rage, fighting spirit, song of heroism for core abilities. The Poetic Edda 3, Enchant weapon (2 points), Action boost sprint.

The beautiful thing about enhancements is this class split works for multiple enhancement tree builds. Someone could decide they want to be more warchanter and less spellsinger and fill up the warchanter tree - I like to be more spellsinger while dabbling in warchanter. So a brand new player would have a hard time going wrong in either tree. That being said, Ill update with what I took when I have access.

Just added enhancements to the OP.
Before I left, I was planning a 2HF Virtuoso build - coming back to the revamp, I saw this thread and began planning, only to realise that to get more or less what I wanted, I needed at least 35 in Spellsinger, 31 in Warchanter, 3 in Warpriest, and didn't have enough to go for the racial enhancements I'd originally planned. I wish there was a Virtuoso tree. :)

Aerendil
10-24-2013, 09:06 AM
Regarding enhancements, why not go the WC route to obtain the T5 abilities, notably howl of the north, armorer and the martial weapon damage boost?

As you're mostly going to focus on melee, the higher crits (from HoTW) and better AC (from medium armour) seem better suited than Capering, no?

voodoogroves
10-24-2013, 10:52 AM
It isn't for Capering, it's for Spellsong Vigor.

Chai
10-24-2013, 02:36 PM
Regarding enhancements, why not go the WC route to obtain the T5 abilities, notably howl of the north, armorer and the martial weapon damage boost?

As you're mostly going to focus on melee, the higher crits (from HoTW) and better AC (from medium armour) seem better suited than Capering, no?

The utility and efficiency gained by having mana always coming in outweighs a few points per hit in damage. The focus is to keep the entire party going, while contributing considerably in melee during times between buffing, which is most of the quest.

People can make those decisions and still build off the same class split, in order to suit specific play style preferences. I am finding that with some of the abilities people build for requiring some mana to use - even the stuff melee will build for like cocoon etc...that just about everyone nowdays appreciates mana ticking back into their spell point pool regularly.

kendo
11-02-2013, 08:27 AM
This is quite cool.

I'm considering respeccing my outdated bard into a 32p variant of this, with 1 cleric and 2 ranger. Ranger for the +75 pos spellpower from DWS

how do you get 75 spell power from DWS? with 2 levels of ranger, the only ones I see are +10 from 1 core, +12 from 3 levels of improved empathy and +8 from 2 levels of improved empathy.


edit -- never mind, found where the beta version of the enhancement pass had the +75 sp for DWS but got changed in the live version.

Kyodaemon
11-05-2013, 09:18 PM
how do you get 75 spell power from DWS? with 2 levels of ranger, the only ones I see are +10 from 1 core, +12 from 3 levels of improved empathy and +8 from 2 levels of improved empathy.


edit -- never mind, found where the beta version of the enhancement pass had the +75 sp for DWS but got changed in the live version.


Live actually was +75, but it was recently nerfed quite hard. Still a decent amount for builds with lots of ranger, but making that R splash a little less powerful sadly.

Just adding info for completeness.

taurean430
11-06-2013, 12:52 AM
Chai,

I'm assuming that you went 18 bard for access to spellsong vigor? If not, you are missing out on some really nice str boosters by stopping at bard 15.

Chai
11-06-2013, 01:00 PM
Chai,

I'm assuming that you went 18 bard for access to spellsong vigor? If not, you are missing out on some really nice str boosters by stopping at bard 15.

Stopping at bard 15 loses level 6 spells. What are you specifically gaining in return for stopping at bard 15?

cru121
11-06-2013, 01:16 PM
Bards get the Inspire Heroics song at level 15. It is the prerequisite for epic feat Inspire Excellence. Or what was the question?

voodoogroves
11-06-2013, 01:35 PM
Bards get the Inspire Heroics song at level 15. It is the prerequisite for epic feat Inspire Excellence. Or what was the question?

Nah, you're a bit perpendicular to Chai's point.

Bard 16 gets OID. What are you getting in return for losing that?

taurean430
11-06-2013, 04:28 PM
Stopping at bard 15 loses level 6 spells. What are you specifically gaining in return for stopping at bard 15?

Level 6 spells (none of which I find to be must have) vs. significantly higher Str mod with ESOS/Cleaver.
Fascinate about the same in both builds.
More HP, Better saves with different configuration.
Higher dps.

Chai
11-07-2013, 10:41 AM
Level 6 spells (none of which I find to be must have) vs. significantly higher Str mod with ESOS/Cleaver.

How?

Where is this significantly higher str mod coming from?

taurean430
11-08-2013, 05:10 AM
How?

Where is this significantly higher str mod coming from?

I haven't gone back to Elka's original configuration since the enhancement pass. I've only been playing with different class combinations trying to sort out what I like. However, your post is using a 57 str (23 mod). Old config for Elka was str 74 buffed up (32 mod). Now, if I went back to that baseline config and added a class split which gains divine might (charisma 34), I'm looking at a possible +9 to str. That would lead to str 83 (36 mod). Depending on how I'd rebuild him I could be looking at evening that out to 84 or 86.

So basically, in theory (Not testing atm), going human -15 bard, 4 fighter, 1 cleric with my melee bard could gain two additional feats in addition to what I mentioned earlier. Plus access to a few of the Kensai abilities.

I suppose I was thinking that having some hjealing amp cure crit or cocoon negates needing heal as a spell. And the level draining effect of wail, although attractive, falls to the wayside as well with increased personal dps. It's why I was asking about the split. I'm curious about the rationale for when I get around to trying a new configuration on my heavy metal singer.

Chai
11-09-2013, 04:08 PM
I haven't gone back to Elka's original configuration since the enhancement pass. I've only been playing with different class combinations trying to sort out what I like. However, your post is using a 57 str (23 mod). Old config for Elka was str 74 buffed up (32 mod). Now, if I went back to that baseline config and added a class split which gains divine might (charisma 34), I'm looking at a possible +9 to str. That would lead to str 83 (36 mod). Depending on how I'd rebuild him I could be looking at evening that out to 84 or 86.

So basically, in theory (Not testing atm), going human -15 bard, 4 fighter, 1 cleric with my melee bard could gain two additional feats in addition to what I mentioned earlier. Plus access to a few of the Kensai abilities.

I suppose I was thinking that having some hjealing amp cure crit or cocoon negates needing heal as a spell. And the level draining effect of wail, although attractive, falls to the wayside as well with increased personal dps. It's why I was asking about the split. I'm curious about the rationale for when I get around to trying a new configuration on my heavy metal singer.

This build has more endgame potential than what I posted for str score. I posted what a newbie can expect to have fairly easily by the time they get to 20. Simply rocking a +5 tome on str and cha gets ~4-5 more points of str. Going from 7-10 on the stat items adds another ~4 str. I haven't touched any of the potions, or maxed out the insightful + exceptional etc.

Not taking as many fighter enhancements can also mean more warchanter stuff, where the + to damage is hidden on the songs.

I do like fighter multiclasses as well though. They grant feats, and 4 levels means opening most of the tree, where plusses to damage can be found.

taurean430
11-10-2013, 12:42 AM
This build has more endgame potential than what I posted for str score. I posted what a newbie can expect to have fairly easily by the time they get to 20. Simply rocking a +5 tome on str and cha gets ~4-5 more points of str. Going from 7-10 on the stat items adds another ~4 str. I haven't touched any of the potions, or maxed out the insightful + exceptional etc.

Not taking as many fighter enhancements can also mean more warchanter stuff, where the + to damage is hidden on the songs.

I do like fighter multiclasses as well though. They grant feats, and 4 levels means opening most of the tree, where plusses to damage can be found.

Understood. I like the original build you posted and didn't want to give the impression that I'm critical of it in any way. I am playing with class splits currently in a big way though. Pre enhancement pass I was satisfied with my main bard's build. However, I am still experimenting quite a bit with different levels/class splits since the pass. I've not decided for sure what I like yet. And the original split in your first post sparked my curiosity.

Thud
11-13-2013, 09:41 PM
I haven't gone back to Elka's original configuration since the enhancement pass. I've only been playing with different class combinations trying to sort out what I like. However, your post is using a 57 str (23 mod). Old config for Elka was str 74 buffed up (32 mod). Now, if I went back to that baseline config and added a class split which gains divine might (charisma 34), I'm looking at a possible +9 to str. That would lead to str 83 (36 mod). Depending on how I'd rebuild him I could be looking at evening that out to 84 or 86.

So basically, in theory (Not testing atm), going human -15 bard, 4 fighter, 1 cleric with my melee bard could gain two additional feats in addition to what I mentioned earlier. Plus access to a few of the Kensai abilities.

I suppose I was thinking that having some hjealing amp cure crit or cocoon negates needing heal as a spell. And the level draining effect of wail, although attractive, falls to the wayside as well with increased personal dps. It's why I was asking about the split. I'm curious about the rationale for when I get around to trying a new configuration on my heavy metal singer.

I am very interested in this build for my bard life on my eSoS toon. I'm starting to build it now. I'm thinking:
Str 18, con 16, int 12, chr 14.
Quicken
Empower healing
Toughness
PA
THF
ITHF
GTHF
Cleave
GreateCleave
IC:Slash
Epic toughness (+5 con tome)
OC
Now, off to the planner to see when to take what levels and feats.
If you have any advice... :rolleyes:

Not trying to hijack your thread OP. You have a nice build too :cool:

Earthy104
02-27-2014, 03:13 PM
Would this work okay with a 32 point HOrc? I tried putting it into CharGen and it seems to work out if str and wis start at 15, but I'm far from expert at working out builds.

Ailaesaedol
02-27-2014, 09:13 PM
Would this work okay with a 32 point HOrc? I tried putting it into CharGen and it seems to work out if str and wis start at 15, but I'm far from expert at working out builds.

Im guessing you meant CHA instead of WIS to start at 15? Horcs get a -2 to CHA but a +2 to STR. From the look of Chai's build, I'd try and have a STR of about 18, Con of 16, and CHA of 14 on a Horc. The two points left over into INT (skill points). Wis is dumped completely due to the Force of Personality feat.

I might be blind, but it doesnt look as though Chai has included his Fighter bonus feat, so you should be able to select all the feats listed despite missing out on the human bonus feat as a Horc.

Quetzacoala
03-01-2014, 09:02 PM
Thank you very much for taking the time to post this build, as it has been very helpful in my recent attempts at creating a bard and has helped me better understand the class.

However, I do have one question. How viable would it be to replace the level of cleric with a level of wizard? Would the extra feat make up for heal as a class skill and divine might?

marinerfan
03-02-2014, 03:08 PM
However, I do have one question. How viable would it be to replace the level of cleric with a level of wizard? Would the extra feat make up for heal as a class skill and divine might?

I think you'd lose quite a bit more than you'd gain by swapping out the cleric level for wizard. The strength increase from divine might is actually a huge boost.

Chai
03-06-2014, 12:53 PM
This works well as a sun elf iconic maul user. Been playing that on a new server. Damage increases to maul, built in deathward+SR buff, and morninglord iconic requires taking one cleric level, so no need to LR the level off, since its in the build.

smckelv
03-06-2014, 01:36 PM
I've got a THF Str-based Bard 16/Fight 2/Rogue 2 on 2nd life (past life pally). 34 points and a ton of melee gear. The build was pre-u19 but still seems to be ok-ish. But I'm thinking about your split posted (OP) of 18/1/1. Anyone have thoughts on my losing rogue evade (it actually does proc on epic, though it isn't EE caliber save). Or if gaining the 2 levels of Bard helped be more bard-like? I realize this is not a CC build, but so far I haven't had any luck at all CCing epic at all without being in fatesinger ed yet @lvl 23.

Any comments appreciated.

Chai
03-06-2014, 02:08 PM
I've got a THF Str-based Bard 16/Fight 2/Rogue 2 on 2nd life (past life pally). 34 points and a ton of melee gear. The build was pre-u19 but still seems to be ok-ish. But I'm thinking about your split posted (OP) of 18/1/1. Anyone have thoughts on my losing rogue evade (it actually does proc on epic, though it isn't EE caliber save). Or if gaining the 2 levels of Bard helped be more bard-like? I realize this is not a CC build, but so far I haven't had any luck at all CCing epic at all without being in fatesinger ed yet @lvl 23.

Any comments appreciated.

16 bard -vs- 18 bard doesnt make you too much more bard like as enhancements are front loaded, and mass suggestion song is cha based for DC purposes. Ive seen 16 bard 2 ftr 2 cleric builds as well, for DVing other casters, as well as tactic DCs.

smckelv
03-06-2014, 04:19 PM
Honestly, re: tactics DC on a bard build. I have personally seen an experienced guildie build a stunning bard to DC 64. That stopped working at mob level 27 unfortunately (EE). My other car is a stunning barbarian who pushes 80 might self buffed and the second level fighter enhancement does add +3 to DC for stunning, trip. His buffed stunning DC goes to 70 which gets back in the EE game at highest levels. I don't think a bard build can quite do that and it doesn't need to if it can otto's irresistible + fascinate.

Still....every time I see one of those underdark drow pop a blue spell resist, I wish I could pop a stunning blow on their non-dancing self. Or how does a str build improve spell pen for otto's without a re-roll?

In my experience, a tactics/str bard can only go so far doing stunning in epic and then there is a DC wall. 60 fort DC for eGH, 70 for the storm horns. These are not minimums but they are numbers you can count on for most rolls.

MadCookieQueen
03-07-2014, 07:41 AM
In my experience, a tactics/str bard can only go so far doing stunning in epic and then there is a DC wall. 60 fort DC for eGH, 70 for the storm horns. These are not minimums but they are numbers you can count on for most rolls.


Funny my bard has no issues with stunning blow:

Stunning Blow DC: 71/74 (73/76 with shaken) – (10 base + 35/38 Str +5 exc combat mastery +10 stunning +2 feat +6 legendary tactics +3 Ftr PL / +2 injury [shaken])

so it's completely viable to have a Str/tactics Bard ^^

Chai
03-07-2014, 02:41 PM
Funny my bard has no issues with stunning blow:

Stunning Blow DC: 71/74 (73/76 with shaken) – (10 base + 35/38 Str +5 exc combat mastery +10 stunning +2 feat +6 legendary tactics +3 Ftr PL / +2 injury [shaken])

so it's completely viable to have a Str/tactics Bard ^^

This.

The breakdowns I put in the OP are for what any new player can reasonably expect when they hit 20-21.

At endgame the str total, and SB-DC can compete.

Add in 3 more for dwarf / warforged, and 3 more for 2 fighter levels if trying to max out SB. The fascinate song can also debuff mobs with -2 using haunting melody.

smckelv
03-07-2014, 04:18 PM
Funny my bard has no issues with stunning blow:

Stunning Blow DC: 71/74 (73/76 with shaken) – (10 base + 35/38 Str +5 exc combat mastery +10 stunning +2 feat +6 legendary tactics +3 Ftr PL / +2 injury [shaken])

so it's completely viable to have a Str/tactics Bard ^^

I don't intend to derail, but I am curious about the STR +38 mod and its breakdown. I like the idea of mini-maxing a stunner focused build with fighter past lives, half orc str, pumping eds with str, epic str feats, etc. My poor excuse for game knowledge may be at cause, but it seems high for a bard. But more to the point....what is the max strength score a Bard with at least 15/16 levels could expect at endgame?

EllisDee37
03-07-2014, 04:23 PM
I don't intend to derail, but I am curious about the STR +38 mod and its breakdown. I like the idea of mini-maxing a stunner focused build with fighter past lives, half orc str, pumping eds with str, epic str feats, etc. My poor excuse for game knowledge may be at cause, but it seems high for a bard. But more to the point....what is the max strength score a Bard with at least 15/16 levels could expect at endgame?The 1 cleric level gives you divine might, which adds your charisma modifier to strength. A bard's charisma modifier can be quite high.

smckelv
03-07-2014, 04:26 PM
The 1 cleric level gives you divine might, which adds your charisma modifier to strength. A bard's charisma modifier can be quite high.
That math works perfectly, wow....my eyes are opened.
+1

Arianka
03-07-2014, 05:10 PM
65 stnning blow dc AND 70 trip dc are great for a melee bard. gotta use heavy deneith chain and ee giants fist though. that's with just a 54 str btw.