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Laeelin
08-26-2013, 08:46 AM
I just made my first rogue (iconic, and mostly used the assassinate tree) just to get a 1 quest feel for the class. I was very surprised by how often I would get SA damage. I assumed that solo I would get SA damage only when I did a bluff or on the first attack.

Instead I picked up a lot of SA damage. For the first group I stealthed in and assassinated the first mob and it died. Then I started meleeing the next mob and got several lines of SA damage before it stopped and then I bluffed and had a couple more SA before it died. Then I turned on the last one and got multiple attacks with SA before it stopped working.

Is this normal, or was I getting lots of lucky dual wield and double strike attacks when opening up?

Do you normally get many SA attacks in while soloing even without bluff?

-Thanks

skorpeon
08-26-2013, 08:50 AM
I did read somewhere about getting auto bluff during attacks on one of the enhancements, could that have been the effect you noticed?

Laeelin
08-26-2013, 09:22 AM
... I forgot, you start off with the daggers Risk (http://ddowiki.com/page/Risk) and Reward (http://ddowiki.com/page/Reward). They have a 5% chance of procing bluff. I assume that is what is going on then?

Gizeh
08-26-2013, 10:59 AM
... I forgot, you start off with the daggers Risk (http://ddowiki.com/page/Risk) and Reward (http://ddowiki.com/page/Reward). They have a 5% chance of procing bluff. I assume that is what is going on then?

That's probably it.

Another way to get sneak attacks while soloing is to use a (improved) deception weapon and item (afaik deception on 2 weapons won't stack, and neither will it on 2 items, but 1 item and 1 weapon add up).

On my rogue I use an upgraded ring of lies and epic midnight greetings (both have improved deception), and with bluff for the rare occurences when SA doesn't proc from deception I deal SA damage most of the time even when soloing.

Laeelin
08-26-2013, 11:15 AM
If I will be soloing a lot, would HE for the second bluff be very useful? I may want to go HE just for the dilly anyway.

goodspeed
08-28-2013, 06:13 PM
If I will be soloing a lot, would HE for the second bluff be very useful? I may want to go HE just for the dilly anyway.

That second bluff if VERY useful. Once SA is unchained your gonna be nailing that thing for an extra 100 or so a blow. And if you can stun it or helpless it in any way, that thing will be dead and down in a moment if that.

Lehmuska
08-29-2013, 11:32 PM
I would argue that instead of going for ┬Żelf, getting radiance and/or imporved deception into your weapons (and improved deception into an item as well, as mentioned earlier) would do more for your sneak attacks, since you could still stay shadar-kai. Bluff has a fairly lengthy animation, when compared to the number of attacks you could make in the same amount of time.

Deathdefy
08-30-2013, 01:51 AM
I would argue that instead of going for ┬Żelf, getting radiance and/or imporved deception into your weapons (and improved deception into an item as well, as mentioned earlier) would do more for your sneak attacks, since you could still stay shadar-kai. Bluff has a fairly lengthy animation, when compared to the number of attacks you could make in the same amount of time.

Bluff's doesn't actually create animation downtime. As long as you press 'bluff' I find it goes off, even if you click immediately after. Ditto for 'Half-Elf Bluff'. I suspect you could even do it mid-volley / attack and it would work though don't think I have actually tried that. It's pretty cool.

'Assassin's Trick' which uses the same animation is a different story and executes the whole thing every time. Blerg.

I'd also suggest getting radiance and improved deception items even if you do go half elf. On red names, a combination of improved deception and bluff when improved deception isn't current procced (which you'll notice when you stop getting SA damage) can give you sneak attacks consistently.

Even sans improved deception the minute-long half-elf cycle of:
-Bluff, H-Elf Bluff, Bluff, 15 seconds of both on cooldown
-Bluff, H-Elf Bluff, Bluff, 15 seconds of both on cooldown... ad infinitum is 75% Sneak Attack uptime.

DC faintly matters in that without a +15 Bluff item I did more poorly, but with one I found I could bluff almost everything I've come across with no initial stat point charisma investment (1 or 2 non-immune mobs I couldn't, but I can't think what they were apart from one being Velah) .

I'd find it hard to recommend H-Elf outside of H-Elf mechanic assassins since there's a combo of the cores giving sneak attack range bonuses and they offer 1 (or 2 with arti dilettante) more int than human... but otherwise making the most of h-elven dilettantes is very AP expensive now.

PurpleTimb
08-30-2013, 02:10 AM
Bluff's doesn't actually create animation downtime. As long as you press 'bluff' I find it goes off, even if you click immediately after. Ditto for 'Half-Elf Bluff'.
This has not been my experience with using bluff. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong, but I get a definite pause in my attack cycle of about 2-3 attacks before I can resume attacking when I bluff. It feels like it's now faster than it used to be, but there is still a long pause when I'm not attacking and instead I'm waving my arms in the arm when I use bluff.

Is this just me?

It's still a very useful skill, definitely worth having and using, in addition to deception/imp. deception and radiance.

Deathdefy
08-30-2013, 02:14 AM
This has not been my experience with using bluff. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong, but I get a definite pause in my attack cycle of about 2-3 attacks before I can resume attacking when I bluff. It feels like it's now faster than it used to be, but there is still a long pause when I'm not attacking and instead I'm waving my arms in the arm when I use bluff.

Is this just me?

I should have said I'm using repeaters. Maybe the reload animation is trumping the bluff animation.

EDIT: That doesn't explain why Assassin's Trick still does the full one for me though. Unless it's also longer for melee rogues?

ReaperAlexEU
08-30-2013, 07:20 AM
i'm mid way through a lit II GS repeater on my mechanic. in general i manage to maintain my SA the bulk of the time through aggro management in a PUG (5 warm bodies to throw in the way), hence my initial choice to go lit II not rad. however i'm now looking at getting an improved deception item and a weapon to match. for red names obviously imp deception weapon is best, but for trash would rad be better due to the larger chance if it is tied to crit threat not straight 5%?

psykopeta
08-30-2013, 07:43 AM
I just made my first rogue (iconic, and mostly used the assassinate tree) just to get a 1 quest feel for the class. I was very surprised by how often I would get SA damage. I assumed that solo I would get SA damage only when I did a bluff or on the first attack.

Instead I picked up a lot of SA damage. For the first group I stealthed in and assassinated the first mob and it died. Then I started meleeing the next mob and got several lines of SA damage before it stopped and then I bluffed and had a couple more SA before it died. Then I turned on the last one and got multiple attacks with SA before it stopped working.

Is this normal, or was I getting lots of lucky dual wield and double strike attacks when opening up?

Do you normally get many SA attacks in while soloing even without bluff?

-Thanks

rad2+ improved deception in equip, not weapon (i could bring an offhand with deception to have a higher % to proc bluff in the offhand but it's a waste of dps) u don't need more when killing groups of less than 3 mobs, i use bluff really few times, for ex i bluff a caster that is far from me and blow up the melee in front, i bluff bosses, i bluff some big melee i want to kill 1st (before the blind on 15-20 hits XD)

but y, what u got is deception, the base one(comes with weapons) the time u spend using bluff is 1 attack(2 if u have gtwf) that attack is easily 20% of mobs hp so i use it when is needed, never would think of making a HE for being assassin, go halfling, lvl 17 with 16d6 on SA (3SA from halfling, 4 heal sla,6 csw sla and 8 clw sla per rest,+3 bluff and +3 to hit when doing SA,+2 dex and +2 saves, perfect for assassin)

Qaliya
08-30-2013, 07:54 AM
I get a pause with bluff also. Even if I click it while it is on cooldown.

My experience with soloing has not been as positive as the OP's. Maybe it's because I'm very low level, but I find almost everything sees me nearly immediately because they're usually just standing there in a dungeon hallway looking right at me. Bringing a hire or a summon to draw aggro seems to help a lot.

Saekee
08-30-2013, 09:08 AM
That's probably it.

Another way to get sneak attacks while soloing is to use a (improved) deception weapon and item (afaik deception on 2 weapons won't stack, and neither will it on 2 items, but 1 item and 1 weapon add up).

On my rogue I use an upgraded ring of lies and epic midnight greetings (both have improved deception), and with bluff for the rare occurences when SA doesn't proc from deception I deal SA damage most of the time even when soloing.

thank you, I did not know the item bonus and weapon bonuses stack! Might be useful to start a thread for rogues with lists of items that generate deception? (I do not want to sabotage this thread)

karl_k0ch
09-03-2013, 02:44 AM
thank you, I did not know the item bonus and weapon bonuses stack! Might be useful to start a thread for rogues with lists of items that generate deception? (I do not want to sabotage this thread)

http://ddowiki.com/page/Deception

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Deception_items