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View Full Version : Doubleshot: is it really worth it?



Alfhild
08-23-2013, 08:55 PM
Per the Manyshot Tooltip: Activating this ability reduces your Extra Shot by 100% for 70 seconds
Per the 10K Stars Tooltip: Activating this ability reduces your Extra Shot by 100% for 45 seconds

Say you are a Monkcher using the standard rotation of:
30 secs of 10K, 20 secs of MS, 10 secs of Single shot, 30 secs of 10K, 30 secs of Single, repeat from beginning
Your MS debuffs your 10 secs of Single Shot and your second 10K debuffs 15 secs of the 30 seconds of Single, leaving you with just 15 secs out of 2 minutes where Doubleshot can actually work.

For L18-20 Rangers with the T4 and T5 core, your Doubleshot is debuffed for 50 seconds of the 100 seconds where you are waiting for MS to recycle.


So is Doubleshot really worth it?

Personally I think the Devs went overboard on the Manyshot debuff. If they want to preclude Monkchers from benefitting from DS, then just extend the 10K star debuff to 60 seconds. But making MS have a 70 sec debuff only really punishes those builds who use Manyshot whose sustained ranged DPS is really not that overpowered even if loaded up with as much Doubleshot as the game provides.

Your thoughts?

Limey
08-28-2013, 07:39 AM
If you spend a lot of time shooting without MS then maybe it's worth it but if you are also 10King then no as that time is better spent meleeing for KI regen.

96th_Malice
08-28-2013, 04:09 PM
If you spend a lot of time shooting without MS then maybe it's worth it but if you are also 10King then no as that time is better spent meleeing for KI regen.

He is correct ..... There is next to no time for DS to proc.

Was a great idea I guess

Glascanon
08-29-2013, 05:34 AM
Testet it and in fact the doubleshot chance is not set to 0 by using Manyshot or 10k.

I think they might changed their mind about that because it would make a 28 epic destenie feat totaly worthless.
Maybe its a "bug" and they will fix it.

In fact it stacks and u can shot 5 or more arrows with Manyshot if u r lucky.
10% doubleshot on 4 arrows should be an average of 4,4 Arrows per shot.

I testet it with 21% doubleshot but it barly realy shots 5 arrows.
feels like ~1 of 5 shots doing 5 arrows.
Saw 6 arrows on one shot a few times but the exact scaling is a miracle.

But the main reason u fire a lot of arrows with Manyshot its not because of the 10% doubleshot chance.
Its because u fire a base of 4 arrows with Manyshot.

No sense to set doubleshot to 0 if u ask me.

Yes it boosts the DPS but a lvl 28 epic destenie Feat should do that or not?

Why adding doubleshot to the game and make it worthless at the same time?

Alfhild
08-29-2013, 10:08 AM
Testet it and in fact the doubleshot chance is not set to 0 by using Manyshot or 10k.

I think they might changed their mind about that because it would make a 28 epic destenie feat totaly worthless.
Maybe its a "bug" and they will fix it.

In fact it stacks and u can shot 5 or more arrows with Manyshot if u r lucky.
10% doubleshot on 4 arrows should be an average of 4,4 Arrows per shot.

I testet it with 21% doubleshot but it barly realy shots 5 arrows.
feels like ~1 of 5 shots doing 5 arrows.
Saw 6 arrows on one shot a few times but the exact scaling is a miracle.

But the main reason u fire a lot of arrows with Manyshot its not because of the 10% doubleshot chance.
Its because u fire a base of 4 arrows with Manyshot.

No sense to set doubleshot to 0 if u ask me.

Yes it boosts the DPS but a lvl 28 epic destenie Feat should do that or not?

Why adding doubleshot to the game and make it worthless at the same time?
I am curious as to how you concluded that doubleshot was working with 10K Stars.

Currently only level 26 on my Monkcher but will take the Doubleshot feat when I hit 27 to test this as well.
Would also be curious if there are any L27 T5 AAs out there who can test. With doubleshot feat, and the T4 and T5 AA cores, they would have +25%.
The two things that need to be tested are whether doubleshot affects Manyshot and whether it affects the single shots following Manyshot's expiration.
Also we would want to avoid autoattacks and confine ourselves to single click attacks to ensure spacing between attacks to avoid conflating the results of 2 autoattacks.

Limey
08-29-2013, 10:43 AM
I tested Doubleshot on an item using Manyshot and never saw more than the normal 4 arrows so I doubt the feat will be any different.

JasonJi72
09-01-2013, 07:01 PM
I tested it on a Druid archer with the doublestrike action boost, and it did provide more arrows.

Alfhild
09-01-2013, 07:36 PM
I tested it on a Druid archer with the doublestrike action boost, and it did provide more arrows.
Did it provide extra arrows during Manyshot? or arrows in the 50 seconds after Manyshot?

schelsullivan
09-03-2013, 11:06 AM
I am curious as to how you concluded that doubleshot was working with 10K Stars.

Currently only level 26 on my Monkcher but will take the Doubleshot feat when I hit 27 to test this as well.
Would also be curious if there are any L27 T5 AAs out there who can test. With doubleshot feat, and the T4 and T5 AA cores, they would have +25%.
The two things that need to be tested are whether doubleshot affects Manyshot and whether it affects the single shots following Manyshot's expiration.
Also we would want to avoid autoattacks and confine ourselves to single click attacks to ensure spacing between attacks to avoid conflating the results of 2 autoattacks.

Im a lev 28 elf t5 AA and if the all stack I will have +25%, Ive done a quick test and will do more to confirm later.

Initial test results show of 21 of first 100 test were doubled, for 50sec after manyshot expired I seem to be getting just as many doubled, 5 out of 20, though Ill do more tests tonight for confirmation.

BTW I noticed during manyshot some of them were 5 arrows, so 1 of the 4 gets doubled, but I also notice a couple many shots came out as a single! Is manyshot broken in such a way as some of them come out as single?

Alfhild
09-03-2013, 11:48 AM
Im a lev 28 elf t5 AA and if the all stack I will have +25%, Ive done a quick test and will do more to confirm later.

Initial test results show of 21 of first 100 test were doubled, for 50sec after manyshot expired I seem to be getting just as many doubled, 5 out of 20, though Ill do more tests tonight for confirmation.

BTW I noticed during manyshot some of them were 5 arrows, so 1 of the 4 gets doubled, but I also notice a couple many shots came out as a single! Is manyshot broken in such a way as some of them come out as single?
Are you autoattacking when testing or single click attacking? For testing, single click is preferable since you have greater spacing between volleys to avoid conflating the results of more than one attack. You will not be able to get in as many attacks but avoid confusion.
And thanks very much for testing this.

Alfhild
09-03-2013, 12:00 PM
Edit function not working for me :(
You mentioned what seemed to be one shot anomalies; I have not seen that at all but wonder if those single shots are producedby doubleshot proccing off an already doubleshotted arrow. So spacing your volleys would be important to deterimine this as well since depending on the coding, it might be possible to see 6 arrows come out of the standard manyshot volley of 4.

schelsullivan
09-03-2013, 02:18 PM
Are you autoattacking when testing or single click attacking? For testing, single click is preferable since you have greater spacing between volleys to avoid conflating the results of more than one attack. You will not be able to get in as many attacks but avoid confusion.
And thanks very much for testing this.

The 100 arrow test was performed in the following manner.

I held down left click for auto attack as I slowly swept to the side and counted 10 attacks. Had my son count the double arrows in each volley of 10. This was repeated 10 times. ~needs more testing~

Next I activated manyshot and again swept to the side so each attack could be easily seen, though I didnt count every manyshot attack but some were definitely 5, and some were 1. I dont think the singles were extra doubleshot procs because I was careful to space each attack into a separate column. ~needs more testing~

After manyshot expired I did a volley of 20 arrows and 5 were doubled, to me this confirms that manyshot is not affecting Doubleshot feats or enhancements negatively.

Notice manyshot tooltip says reduces "extrashot" is that even the same thing as "doubleshot"?

It may be "extrashot" is a weapon prefix/suffix that is affected, while "doubleshot" is a feat/enhancement and thus is not affected?

Alfhild
09-03-2013, 04:05 PM
I held down left click for auto attack as I slowly swept to the side and counted 10 attacks. Had my son count the double arrows in each volley of 10. This was repeated 10 times. ~needs more testing~

Next I activated manyshot and again swept to the side so each attack could be easily seen, though I didnt count every manyshot attack but some were definitely 5, and some were 1. I dont think the singles were extra doubleshot procs because I was careful to space each attack into a separate column. ~needs more testing~
So you are visually counting the arrows from the shot graphic? Not sure what you mean by columns. Are the 5 shot volleys confirmed in the combat log?

As Saco said, extrashot was just renamed doubleshot to coincide with the doublestrike terminology.

saco
09-03-2013, 04:11 PM
How reliable is visual counting? To me I only see that as erroneous calculations as visual numbers are anything but consistent. I always use consumable arrows to keep track.

FestusHood
09-03-2013, 04:28 PM
Sorry to sidetrack a second, but do monkchers still function now that manyshot and 10k stars share a cooldown timer?

niehues
09-03-2013, 04:50 PM
The 100 arrow test was performed in the following manner.

I held down left click for auto attack as I slowly swept to the side and counted 10 attacks. Had my son count the double arrows in each volley of 10. This was repeated 10 times. ~needs more testing~

Next I activated manyshot and again swept to the side so each attack could be easily seen, though I didnt count every manyshot attack but some were definitely 5, and some were 1. I dont think the singles were extra doubleshot procs because I was careful to space each attack into a separate column. ~needs more testing~

After manyshot expired I did a volley of 20 arrows and 5 were doubled, to me this confirms that manyshot is not affecting Doubleshot feats or enhancements negatively.

Notice manyshot tooltip says reduces "extrashot" is that even the same thing as "doubleshot"?

It may be "extrashot" is a weapon prefix/suffix that is affected, while "doubleshot" is a feat/enhancement and thus is not affected?

I was just reading through and just to tell what i think after I read this.. ..

If manyshot gives you the ability of fire "extrashots" per shot.. that means that once the effect is seassed the suppose ability should wear off.. and i think is that the description says.. once it wear off u loose the ability of fire those "extrashots"

it does make sense to me at least..

that would make me believe that the extrashot is not related to doubleshot.. that gives u a change of "double" one of your hits..


still a bit confuse though..

Alfhild
09-03-2013, 05:19 PM
Sorry to sidetrack a second, but do monkchers still function now that manyshot and 10k stars share a cooldown timer?
Pre-U19 Manyshot and 10K shared a 30 second cooldown which prevented them from being used concurrently and also meant you had to wait 10 seconds to activate 10K if you started with Manyshot whereas you could proceed to Manyshot directly after 10K because the 30 sec CD had expired.

Nothing has changed post-U19

schelsullivan
09-03-2013, 05:23 PM
Hey thanks for the responses.

I did test the number of arrows per attack visually, by the number of arrows sticking out of the floor I fired them into! To be honest I did not think of the combat log at all.

When I use the word "column" I was referring to the 4 arrows stacked vertically per attack that appear in when many shot is active.

When doubleshot procs you will see 2 arrows per attack stacked vertically.

Otherwise you see a single arrow per attack.

Occasionally during the manyshot volley you will see 5 arrows per attack also stacked vertically.

Someone earlier in this thread said they saw 6 arrows? Were they stacked vertacally?

Anyway that may not be the best way to test, but I have the feat and enhancements and actually "watching how many arrows" in each attack seemed reasonable.

Alfhild
09-03-2013, 05:29 PM
Anyway that may not be the best way to test, but I have the feat and enhancements and actually "watching how many arrows" in each attack seemed reasonable.
If you can bank all your arrows except a set amount of non-conjured one as Saco mentioned you could compare your visual observations with your actual consumption.

schelsullivan
09-03-2013, 05:32 PM
If you can bank all your arrows except a set amount of non-conjured one as Saco mentioned you could compare your visual observations with your actual consumption.

Yes that does make a lot of sense. Test and see if the graphic are a true representation of actual arrow attacks.

So I just tested that real quick like this.

10 arrows in arrow slot - single shot, single shot, single shot, doubleshot - resulting in 7 remaining! What!

Repeat:
10 arrows in arrow slot - single shot, single shot, doubleshot, single shot - resulting in 5 remaining! ***!

Repeat:
10 arrows in arrow slot - doubleshot, single shot, single shot, single shot - resulting in 6 remaining! I give up!

looks like wonky math to me, 4 attacks with 1 doubleshot proc, just what I expect with +25% but the arrows subtracted from the the arrow slot was different 3 times in a row.

FestusHood
09-03-2013, 05:35 PM
Pre-U19 Manyshot and 10K shared a 30 second cooldown which prevented them from being used concurrently and also meant you had to wait 10 seconds to activate 10K if you started with Manyshot whereas you could proceed to Manyshot directly after 10K because the 30 sec CD had expired.

Nothing has changed post-U19

Thanks for this. I have a friend who is building a monkcher and was quite worried about this. I'll be happy to tell them that they won't have to do something else with it.

schelsullivan
09-03-2013, 06:02 PM
The weirdness continues.

I have tested my actually doubleproc vs training dummy compaired to the visually doubleshot arrows.

With improved precise shot enabled its possible to see how many "graphic arrows" per attack vs actual hits on the training dummy and guess what, its a wonk.

Actual doubleshot hits on the dummy with single graphic arrows AND actual single shot hits on the dummy with doubleshot arrow graphics.

In other words you cant trust the range animations, I find that disappointing.

Alfhild
09-03-2013, 06:18 PM
The weirdness continues.

I have tested my actually doubleproc vs training dummy compaired to the visually doubleshot arrows.

With improved precise shot enabled its possible to see how many "graphic arrows" per attack vs actual hits on the training dummy and guess what, its a wonk.

Actual doubleshot hits on the dummy with single graphic arrows AND actual single shot hits on the dummy with doubleshot arrow graphics.

In other words you cant trust the range animations, I find that disappointing.
Well at least we know the graphic animation is utterly unreliable. Can you do tests with manyshot with a set amount of consumables and after each volley check your combat log to see if it corresponds to the arrows you used?

schelsullivan
09-05-2013, 09:27 AM
Testing with the training dummy has shown me that doubleshot procs during and directly after many shot. With manyshot activated and using single attacks to assure im not confusing previous attacks, I occasionally get 5 hits in one attack. I also get double shots hits immediately after manyshot expires. This was confirmed with over mob head damage and via the combat log.

The amount of arrows used isnt important to me because I almost always use summoned arrows (occasionally I use silver arrows where silver and good/holy is needed)

For me this confirms that Doubleshot is a useful feat for pure rangers.

saco
09-05-2013, 12:11 PM
Thanks for this. I have a friend who is building a monkcher and was quite worried about this. I'll be happy to tell them that they won't have to do something else with it.

Still very worth it I would say. So far with 40 Wis my DPS is boosted by 100% with 10k stars with equates to a 50% overall DPS boost while Doubleshot only does 20-25% and that is ignoring the debuff manyshot is supposed to have on Doubleshot. And really that is only 15% since that is what Shadow Arrow imbue and the capstone in AA gives you.

Course there is the question of how much dmg is lost due to raw dmg being lower but I think that the more tendency of your 10k stars proccing on your +2 or +3[W] shots will more than makeup the loss of raw dmg.

Really the only change to the Moncher is that you don't need 12 levels of monk to get the +1 crit multiplier on 19-20 rolls for Master Earth Stance, instead at char level 12 you can feat for master stance. So seems like 6 monk levels is all you really need.

saco
09-05-2013, 12:13 PM
Testing with the training dummy has shown me that doubleshot procs during and directly after many shot. With manyshot activated and using single attacks to assure im not confusing previous attacks, I occasionally get 5 hits in one attack. I also get double shots hits immediately after manyshot expires. This was confirmed with over mob head damage and via the combat log.

The amount of arrows used isnt important to me because I almost always use summoned arrows (occasionally I use silver arrows where silver and good/holy is needed)

For me this confirms that Doubleshot is a useful feat for pure rangers.

Actually is makes Dobuleshot useful for all archers and not just for pure rangers.

But this is all under the assumption that this is WAI which I find doubtful as it contradicts what the tooltip says. What happens when they fix the bug if it is in fact doing what everyone think it is doing.

Alfhild
09-05-2013, 01:15 PM
But this is all under the assumption that this is WAI which I find doubtful as it contradicts what the tooltip says. What happens when they fix the bug if it is in fact doing what everyone think it is doing.It seems interesting that the tooltips in question use the earlier terminology of extra shot as has been pointed out. That they did not upgrade the tooltip to reflect the new term leaves open the possibility they did not update the coding which provides the debuff to include the new term thus rendering the debuff inert for doubleshot..

schelsullivan
09-05-2013, 03:30 PM
It would be nice to have a dev chime and let us know if it is working as intended. Ill be running with it and if it changes, well I'll just go see Fred.

Alfhild
09-05-2013, 10:00 PM
It would be nice to have a dev chime and let us know if it is working as intended. Ill be running with it and if it changes, well I'll just go see Fred.
Spent a Sib shard and swapped in Doubleshot. Previously when testing I only had access to a +3% item. Now with both doubleshot and a +6 item I was able to test more reliably.
Bought a 1100 consumable arrows and loaded them in my Quiver of Poison and 100 into ammo. Went to the dummy and positioned my inventory screen so it was right beside the dummy so that I could see both the ammo count and damage text in close proximity.
Results? Yes I got a number of 5 shot volleys in manyshot as well as a number of 2 shots in the 50 seconds after Manyshot expired.
For testing with 10K Stars, I lowered my unbuffed 39 WIS to 36 by removing my +3 Insightful. Based on previous testing this would get around a 30/45/25 ratio in terms of 1/2/3 shots. Realizing it would be hard to distinguish whether a triple shot was a 10K 3 shot or a 10K 2 shot + a doubleshot, my aim was to see if I get a 4 shot which would indicate that doubleshot was working since 36 WIS does not grant a 4 shot with 10K stars since 42 WIS is required based on previous testing.
I was surprised to see a 4 shot on my 3 volley in my first 10K stars session. However I did not see another one again until my 5th. So assuming a) all previous testing was 100% accurate and b) that the unknown formula governing 10k Stars has not changed, I would also conclude doubleshot is working with 10K as well as Manyshot.

Carpone
09-06-2013, 01:03 PM
I have a hard time believing that Doubleshot applying during 10k/MS is working as intended. I would not invest in Doubleshot itemization.

Feat swaps are cheap. Use the Doubleshot feat while it lasts.

schelsullivan
09-06-2013, 01:31 PM
Investing in Doubleshot is suboptimal for a toon that utilizes both 10k Stars and Manyshot. There's only a 15 second window every 2 minutes (12.5% of the time) where Doubleshot is applied.

Incorrect, doubleshot has been tested and is infact working during and immediately after both manyshot and 10kstars. We dont know if this is WAI, but its working now.

Alfhild
09-06-2013, 03:39 PM
I have a hard time believing that Doubleshot applying during 10k/MS is working as intended. I would not invest in Doubleshot itemization.

Feat swaps are cheap. Use the Doubleshot feat while it lasts.
Agreed, but getting Dev clarification on this would be nice since on the slim chance it is WAI, the feat, itemization, and perhaps a 2 splash in druid would make for an interesting build since a fellow earlier said the druid doublestrike boost was working with archery.

Carpone
09-06-2013, 06:40 PM
Agreed, but getting Dev clarification on this would be nice since on the slim chance it is WAI, the feat, itemization, and perhaps a 2 splash in druid would make for an interesting build since a fellow earlier said the druid doublestrike boost was working with archery.
Nature Warrior Action Boost Double Strike did not work with bows when I tested it pre-patch 1. IMO it should, but then again, I also think that every occurrence of Doublestrike in the game should apply Doubleshot as well.