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CaptEHCJ
08-21-2013, 11:27 PM
First, I'm quite new to DDO and the Forums. But, in reading forums, it seems folks talk about Air and Water for end-game Sorcs. Never Earth. I know that Fire is mostly not viable due to so many mobs being immune. But.. does earth have that same problem? Why no earth recommendations. Note, also admittedly, most of this was from before the new enhancement system but still....

Any thoughts or illumination from folks further down the sorc path than myself would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Neoxxz
08-22-2013, 12:53 AM
First, I'm quite new to DDO and the Forums. But, in reading forums, it seems folks talk about Air and Water for end-game Sorcs. Never Earth. I know that Fire is mostly not viable due to so many mobs being immune. But.. does earth have that same problem? Why no earth recommendations. Note, also admittedly, most of this was from before the new enhancement system but still....

Any thoughts or illumination from folks further down the sorc path than myself would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Earth and Air are mutually exclusive.

Air gives you Knockdown Immunity and Wind Dance, which are enormously powerful, especially if you plan on running EE content.

red_cardinal
08-22-2013, 01:17 AM
First, I'm quite new to DDO and the Forums. But, in reading forums, it seems folks talk about Air and Water for end-game Sorcs. Never Earth. I know that Fire is mostly not viable due to so many mobs being immune. But.. does earth have that same problem? Why no earth recommendations. Note, also admittedly, most of this was from before the new enhancement system but still....

Any thoughts or illumination from folks further down the sorc path than myself would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Why would 'so many mobs' be immune to fire? Which are those mobs? If you're thinking endgame to be a few devils in the Vale and Shavarath pack, then you're stuck in 2010. End game is mostly living things and none of it as of now is immune to fire. Maybe here and there there's a fire elemental.

Fire is viable for epic content. You just need your Evocation DCs high enough so that mobs don't save and you don't get half of damage.

darthhento
08-22-2013, 04:36 AM
I'm using mine as a Water Savant with secondary in Acid. Polar Ray, Otiluke's, Cone, Black Dragon Bolt as main nukes, Acid Rain and Ice Storm as AoE's, Niac's, Eldar's and BDB as dots.

Air is very nice in terms of survivability but with smart gameplay you don't need knockdown immunity; if you're standing still in EE, you're dead.

Sokól
08-22-2013, 05:31 AM
First, I'm quite new to DDO and the Forums. But, in reading forums, it seems folks talk about Air and Water for end-game Sorcs. Never Earth. I know that Fire is mostly not viable due to so many mobs being immune. But.. does earth have that same problem? Why no earth recommendations. Note, also admittedly, most of this was from before the new enhancement system but still....

Any thoughts or illumination from folks further down the sorc path than myself would be much appreciated. Thanks!

It all depends on your playstyle earth is a more dmg over time and cc with good webs and earth grab not as good in direct dmg. I duo sometimes with an earth savant and I play usually air or water and we compensate each other I might have more kills but he pins them down for me.

Neoxxz
08-22-2013, 05:33 AM
Air is very nice in terms of survivability but with smart gameplay you don't need knockdown immunity; if you're standing still in EE, you're dead.

You don't NEED Knockdown Immunity.

You don't NEED Displacement.

You don't NEED Dodge.

You don't NEED astronomical saves or a ton of hit points.

BUT all these things collectively increase the margin for error and, ultimately, staying power.

thesnoman
08-23-2013, 01:32 PM
Earth Savant is very fun to play in end game - Before going Air Savant/Shiradi with my Sorc I was pure Earth Savant.

Love it - different style of play - very difficult to solo EE content, but if you're playing in a group, it's a blast (web everything and let the DPS go to town)

When Epic GH was released, it was the death of my Earth Savant - MOB saves were too high and my web couldn't hold anything. Acid blast was hitting for half damage due to reflex saves, and my best option was to kite mobs through Acid Fog/Acid Rain - and many times die in the process.

Earth is fun to play - it's just not as survivable as Air and doesn't do as much instant DPS as Ice/Fire.

Wizza
08-23-2013, 06:03 PM
You don't NEED Knockdown Immunity.

You don't NEED Displacement.

You don't NEED Dodge.

You don't NEED astronomical saves or a ton of hit points.

BUT all these things collectively increase the margin for error and, ultimately, staying power.

This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. It is dead wrong.

AtomicMew
08-23-2013, 07:17 PM
This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. They are dead wrong.

Text is singular.

Neoxxz
08-23-2013, 07:20 PM
This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. They are dead wrong.

You evidently didn't understand my post.

Vallar
08-23-2013, 09:23 PM
Air gives you Knockdown Immunity

Disclaimer: All the below are from personal experience and the few chats I had with other Sorcs or watched them as they play.

I don't think that Air holds that much upper hand in terms of survivability anymore. My main is a 27 Sorc Water Sav (was second air and now second Acid).

If you want knockdown immunity stay in elemental form; Water Elemental form gives you immunity to knockdown, I bet the Air Elemental does the same. I know the description on the spell itself doesn't say ANYTHING related to that; however this comes from playing quests in the MoTUD pack where every single Acolyte or female caster spams Comet Fall to knockdown your brains. When I am out of form, I ALWAYS fall and get damage, once I swap into form, no more falling and a nice "Immune" floats over my head with a "Reflex Save"x3 hovering next to it (might be due to my reflex saves that I don't get the damage). But I am 100% sure about the immunity thing.

Now to the original question of why there aren't Earth end game (and I was this close |-| from respecing to acid fully) my guess:

Multiple times I end up in a quest where mobs are either resistant or immune to cold in which case I have to switch to acid. The problem with acid is the damage is based on DoTs and as we all know time is of essence; the sooner the mob dies, the sooner you are safe. Sorcs (or at least mine with Blur, 6% dodge, Stoneskin and Displacement) are squichy so it is not ideal that you keep running/jumping around like a mad rabbit until the 10-25K HP of the mob to drop.

On the other hand with all other elements; the damage is instant. You hit the spell, the mob gets damage, if he still walking, you move on to the next spell on your bar and the mob is dead (or continue doing so until dead).

You may however come to the conclusion in the end that in EE or some EH your damage may come close to acid's DoT effect. In EE if you get a Polar Ray with all Metamigcs your can do anything between 800-2.2K (depends on your gear and enhancements of course) which would still leave the mob with about 55-70% HP so you have to keep nuking; essentially mimicing acid's DoT. Unfortunately, the tick goes every second, where the spells you can unleash is only limited by how fast you can press the buttons and how fast the server/game would respond.

Another thing, I didn't like and I am sure other people might share my opinion, Earth's last SLA; Earthgrab. It is a DC of 10+Constitution Modifier+Sorc level as far as I know (and someone can correct me if I am wrong please) if you fail the DC NOTHING happens to the mob; just like you when you save against the Earth Elemental's Earthgrab.

Now compare that to Icy Prison (essentially the same SLA level for Water Savant); regardless of what it originally does, if they save, they get 250 damage. So, yeah, when you cast it, you know it is a win/(1/2)win situation. Specially when it has a bit of a few seconds of casting time and it isn't affected by meta magics.

One more reason, stacking Nukes from Acid doesn't behave the same way as Niac's Biting Cold or Electric Surge. If you stack Melf's Acid Arrow, it will lower the DC of the mob (and I think a max of 5 stack, but I am not sure about that), on the other hand, you can't stack Black Dragon Breath for example. So you have to resist the urge of spamming such nukes because it adds little and drains SP.

Others might have other reasons, but these are mine.

Aside from all of that, it is actually fun to just throw a few DoTs and walk away as the mobs die slowly while your team is bashing on them (to tend to other mobs perhaps or have a moment of respite) -- when you get a good team that can handle themselves and don't die if the the mob doesn't die ASAP.

Nonetheless, why not try it? Get a Sorc up to 20 with Earth Savant and see how it plays, if it is viable for you, you can share the experience, maybe I would change to Earth :)

Hope that helps.

Wizza
08-24-2013, 03:00 AM
Text is singular.

Oooops. Late night post.


You evidently didn't understand my post.

You evidently didn't understand the benefits of the things you quoted in game. Saying to a caster "You don't need displacement" is as bad as saying to a fighter "You don't need a weapon, you can fight with your hands".

Just no.

Neoxxz
08-24-2013, 05:46 AM
Oooops. Late night post.



You evidently didn't understand the benefits of the things you quoted in game. Saying to a caster "You don't need displacement" is as bad as saying to a fighter "You don't need a weapon, you can fight with your hands".

Just no.

I was saying that all those things (e.g. Displacement, Dodge etc) are REALLY GOOD.

Hence you didn't understand my post.

Read it in the context of the post I quoted and maybe it will make sense to you. Maybe even read it out loud, emphasising the capitalised words.

Wizza
08-24-2013, 06:34 AM
I was saying that all those things (e.g. Displacement, Dodge etc) are REALLY GOOD.

Hence you didn't understand my post.

Read it in the context of the post I quoted and maybe it will make sense to you. Maybe even read it out loud, emphasising the capitalised words.

I read it. I understand your point. But your "don't NEED but are REALLY GOOD hence take them" is wrong. The truth is that, as a caster, you NEED displacement. You also NEED a ton of hit points, specially if we are talking of the harder epics. In fact, I will get Epic Toughness on my Air savant because I need those HP.

Wizza
08-24-2013, 06:35 AM
If you want knockdown immunity stay in elemental form; Water Elemental form gives you immunity to knockdown, I bet the Air Elemental does the same. I know the description on the spell itself doesn't say ANYTHING related to that; however this comes from playing quests in the MoTUD pack where every single Acolyte or female caster spams Comet Fall to knockdown your brains. When I am out of form, I ALWAYS fall and get damage, once I swap into form, no more falling and a nice "Immune" floats over my head with a "Reflex Save"x3 hovering next to it (might be due to my reflex saves that I don't get the damage). But I am 100% sure about the immunity thing.


Turn off Water Elemental Form.
Open combat log.
Turn on form again.

Copy here what it says. Interested in this.

Neoxxz
08-24-2013, 07:15 AM
I read it. I understand your point. But your "don't NEED but are REALLY GOOD hence take them" is wrong. The truth is that, as a caster, you NEED displacement. You also NEED a ton of hit points, specially if we are talking of the harder epics. In fact, I will get Epic Toughness on my Air savant because I need those HP.

Semantic difference between vital and optimal. Signing out.

Vallar
08-24-2013, 12:20 PM
Turn off Water Elemental Form.
Open combat log.
Turn on form again.

Copy here what it says. Interested in this.

OK, the window doesn't copy more than one line, may I ask if you know how to copy multiple lines from that window?

Meanwhile, the combat log doesn't have any information or mention to immunity towards knockdown or anything. It simply states what is in the description in "summary". If that is what you are after.

Wizza
08-24-2013, 01:02 PM
OK, the window doesn't copy more than one line, may I ask if you know how to copy multiple lines from that window?

Meanwhile, the combat log doesn't have any information or mention to immunity towards knockdown or anything. It simply states what is in the description in "summary". If that is what you are after.

Weird. Other Elemental forms states some buffs not stated in the summary.

Anyway, I don't really know how to explain how to copy more than one line so I suggest you just open wide the Chat and take a SS to post here.

Vallar
08-24-2013, 01:17 PM
Here is the screenshot of the chat:

http://i.imgur.com/8NXhSJ8.jpg?1

Anything below the last line in the chat window is just what I have on items. Hope that helps

Wizza
08-24-2013, 01:25 PM
Here is the screenshot of the chat:

http://i.imgur.com/8NXhSJ8.jpg?1

Anything below the last line in the chat window is just what I have on items. Hope that helps

This is not what I was asking for thou

I'd like the entire description from the Combat log: deactivate temporarily the "Incoming: Effects" from your combat chat and then SS again. At the left of the description there shouldn't be the tag "Effects" but rather it should be "(Combat)" .

Vallar
08-24-2013, 09:44 PM
This is not what I was asking for thou

I'd like the entire description from the Combat log: deactivate temporarily the "Incoming: Effects" from your combat chat and then SS again. At the left of the description there shouldn't be the tag "Effects" but rather it should be "(Combat)" .

http://i.imgur.com/kHJxxEe.jpg?1

Hope that help

JOTMON
09-09-2013, 08:00 AM
Earth and Air are mutually exclusive.

Air gives you Knockdown Immunity and Wind Dance, which are enormously powerful, especially if you plan on running EE content.

I do like Air and my WF sorc is still Air specc'd..., but ..the knockdown Immunity is not really an Immunity..
The text should really be changed to Knockdown Resistance..some Epic Mobs and effects still knock you down.. apparently this is WAI..

The stun from electrical is nice and the dots for air ice are still pretty effective.

Personaly I feel all in all the Ice/Earth Savants are more powerful than Air Savants
Air Savants dont get a elemental AOE tick damager like Firewall, ice storm, acid rain..
They can still use them they just dont work with Air Savants as well...
....although gust of wind does take care of any party member's annoying AOE spells.....

Earth Savants dont really have a decent strike spell, like ploar ray or lighning bolt, so for a mobile mob who doest stay in a cloud Earth savants are more limited in burst damage, Black dragon bolt is alright, but nowhere near as effective as Polar Ray.


The downside for all WF is all the elemental forms screw WF out of being able to repair..
Apparently taking the form makes you living and no longer a construct... you can be healed as if you were living...
At this point being in form makes Healers friend enhancements worthless and so are all your repair spells/scrolls/pots.
Sor for any WF who want to take form...Stock up on Heal scrolls and cure pots, you are effectively fleshie now...

JOTMON
09-09-2013, 08:36 AM
You don't NEED Knockdown Immunity.

You don't NEED Displacement.

You don't NEED Dodge.

You don't NEED astronomical saves or a ton of hit points.

BUT all these things collectively increase the margin for error and, ultimately, staying power.

True, you dont need anything. for epic Casual, Normal or even Hard..or running quests 10 levels below your current level.
but if you want to be effective and a postive contributor to a party or solo, every additional piece makes you more survivable and useful.
..being dead is not useful..



This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. It is dead wrong.

All you really NEED is a party member with backpack space..to carry your soulstone to the end so you can loot the chest and pike your way to level cap.

jskinner937
09-09-2013, 08:37 AM
Why would 'so many mobs' be immune to fire? Which are those mobs? If you're thinking endgame to be a few devils in the Vale and Shavarath pack, then you're stuck in 2010. End game is mostly living things and none of it as of now is immune to fire. Maybe here and there there's a fire elemental.

Fire is viable for epic content. You just need your Evocation DCs high enough so that mobs don't save and you don't get half of damage.

^^

So many people read what one person says on the forum and take it for gospel. This seems like the same thing as the whole 10k stars and Manyhot sharing the same cooldown. Don't believe everything you read, and especially do not attempt to pass this information on to others without personally testing said theory. It leads to mass confusion. But anyways here is the skinny...in my own personal experience....


Fire is "THE BEST DPS SAVANT IN CURRENT END GAME". Best AoE DoT, Best Single Target DPS. Best AoE Instant Damage and synergizes well with Shirardi if don't have the DCs for Meteor Swarm, DB Fireball, Fireball and Wall of Fire.

What Air gets you is 2nd best DPS Savant and somewhat immunity to knockdown.

Water = best low DC savant.

Earth = good for leveling but falls behind the others because you lose electric caster levels which is the better DoT on bosses for most situations. If only Earthgrab had better use in eE content it might compete as an option.

My overall impression is that the air savant is becoming less my favored savant due to the fact that the immunity to knockdown appears to only work against air elementals anymore, and with Stormhorns and Wheloon being mostly weak to fire, my next sorc life will be Fire Savant start to finish with emphasis on electric as secondary. Considering I have 2 sorc past lives + access to wizard past life, I am going to do a DI Fire Savant this go around. Shirardi is getting too boring anymore.

Soulfurnace
09-09-2013, 08:48 AM
True, you dont need anything. for epic Casual, Normal or even Hard..or running quests 10 levels below your current level.
but if you want to be effective and a postive contributor to a party or solo, every additional piece makes you more survivable and useful.
..being dead is not useful..

All you really NEED is a party member with backpack space..to carry your soulstone to the end so you can loot the chest and pike your way to level cap.

Heh. You seem to have DDO confused with... I don't know. A really really hard game.

At the end of the day, you do not need any specific thing. You will still reach the end of EE solo if you are a good player (newest content aside). Every bit helps, yes. But no, not required.

Wizza
09-09-2013, 08:54 AM
All you really NEED is a party member with backpack space..to carry your soulstone to the end so you can loot the chest and pike your way to level cap.

Eheh so true! But, as the person you quoted said, you don't really NEED it, right? :rolleyes:


Heh. You seem to have DDO confused with... I don't know. A really really hard game.

At the end of the day, you do not need any specific thing. You will still reach the end of EE solo if you are a good player (newest content aside). Every bit helps, yes. But no, not required.

Sure. Call us when you solo an EE (newest content included, of course) without Displacement, Dodge or a ton of HP. Need a video of course or we won't believe you ;)



Btw: I'm curious as to why people think that the Air Savant KD immunity is becoming less efficient. ASAIK, the only thing that trips you is Greater Command and few other rare mobs.

jskinner937
09-09-2013, 09:00 AM
Eheh so true! But, as the person you quoted said, you don't really NEED it, right? :rolleyes:



Sure. Call us when you solo an EE (newest content included, of course) without Displacement, Dodge or a ton of HP. Need a video of course or we won't believe you ;)



Btw: I'm curious as to why people think that the Air Savant KD immunity is becoming less efficient. ASAIK, the only thing that trips you is Greater Command and few other rare mobs.

Any mobs with trip will trip you, greater command throws you to ground, cometfalls will knock you down, giants will knock you down...what else other than air elementals is left to knock you down? You used to be at least immune to everything but greater command prior to eGH.

jskinner937
09-09-2013, 09:02 AM
Any mobs with trip will trip you, greater command throws you to ground, cometfalls will knock you down, giants will knock you down...what else other than air elementals is left to knock you down? You used to be at least immune to everything but greater command prior to eGH.

I am talking about the non-elemental form of course. But I believe elemental form regardless of savant gives you more immunities....hence air being less useful for the KD Immunity.

Wizza
09-09-2013, 09:04 AM
Any mobs with trip will trip you, greater command throws you to ground, cometfalls will knock you down, giants will knock you down...what else other than air elementals is left to knock you down? You used to be at least immune to everything but greater command prior to eGH.

No. You are just encountering a bug. Sometimes, upon log-in, some of the immunities that you should get are not properly loaded.

Trip still doesn't trip you, same for cometfall, Air ellies and giants KD. Greater command is the only thing in the current end-game that trips you down and that can be stopped with Protection from Evil.

jskinner937
09-09-2013, 05:17 PM
No. You are just encountering a bug. Sometimes, upon log-in, some of the immunities that you should get are not properly loaded.

Trip still doesn't trip you, same for cometfall, Air ellies and giants KD. Greater command is the only thing in the current end-game that trips you down and that can be stopped with Protection from Evil.

This is a known issue...its not WAI. If you don't believe me go into EE ID and let her priestess spam cometfalls on you. Sure if you are a pally splash you will save a lot, but you will not be immune guarantee logging in or not.

And as far a prot from evil, I think only the spell is working as items and ship buffs have not prevented for awhile...another known issue. And giant knockdown can only be prevented if you are blocking.

Saravis
09-09-2013, 05:56 PM
I found Earth Savant to be the slowest DPS of the bunch. It's mostly DoT style damage, so you have to wait for the spell to run its course. This becomes especially an issue when running in a group, where players are trying to kill mobs quickly and a lot of the damage gets wasted. The DPS can be good, but just too slow for my tastes.

Wizza
09-10-2013, 02:38 AM
This is a known issue...its not WAI. If you don't believe me go into EE ID and let her priestess spam cometfalls on you. Sure if you are a pally splash you will save a lot, but you will not be immune guarantee logging in or not.

And as far a prot from evil, I think only the spell is working as items and ship buffs have not prevented for awhile...another known issue. And giant knockdown can only be prevented if you are blocking.

I only run EEs. Cometfalls and giants don't knock you down. Stop. If they do, relog.

Don't care about the items of the ship buff. They are useless. Just cast the spell for 25m of immunity, more than enough.

Timap
09-11-2013, 09:33 AM
Earth savants are viable at endgame if you want to solo EE content. Zonixx on Sarlona, for example, is an Earth Savant who multiboxes and solos EE content scaled up to 6 players. You can see him in action at http://www.twitch.tv/zonixxtv/profile

For EH/EN content, Earth Savants are slower than other savants. Like other posters have already mentioned, the burst DPS of elec/fire/ice spells are higher than acid spells, so you kill mobs faster, and you don't need to jump around like a rabbit avoiding blows from mobs. Everything fails their saves, so all elec/fire/ice spells have full effect, and dead mobs can't hit you. And Niacs Biting Cold/Eldar's electric surge works much faster to bring down a boss than acid spells. You have too much SP anyway, so the lower SP efficiency of the other savants do not matter.

But on EE content, especially if you are NOT a completionist and you want to solo it, earth savants shine. Acid spells mostly do not have saving throws (except for the initial tics of acid rain/acid fog etc.), and are more efficient dmg/SP-wise in return for lower burst DPS, doing dmg over time instead. EE mobs have massive hp and massive saves. Other savants will not be able to take them down quickly despite their higher DPS; jumping around is mandatory if you don't want to die. Mobs WILL make their reflex saves, and many have evasion, so many fire/ice/elec spells are going to do half to no dmg, which further brings down their efficiency. And EE final fights are usually limited by the mana pool you have, so SP efficiency is important. NBS/ES are efficient only if you can keep a stack of 3 constantly refreshed on the boss, and that is difficult when there are trash mobs and you have to jump around. Whereas an earth savant just casts an acid fog, and an ice storm, then jumps around in that fog. Most acid spells are fire and forget DoT spells, so you can concentrate on jumping around. It will be slow, but you will complete the EE quest. Earth savants have an advantage in EE content because SP efficiency matters here.

And earth savants are viable on EN/EH content as well, of course. They will just take longer to complete EN/EH quests compared to other savants.

And knockdown immunity and abundant step, you can get from epic destinies, if you want. Personally, I take knockdown immunity, but have never found abundant step to be that much use. I jump around well enough without abundant step. And I know earth savants who move around good enough not to even need knockdown immunity.

The only other savant that can possibly match earth savant in SP efficiency on EE content is the Shiradi fire savant with 2 levels of FvS for Just Rewards AoV enhancement, only made recently possible from the enhancement pass. AoV enhancements add nicely to fire crit chance and Shiradi force dmg, and Just Rewards possibly allows unlimited spamming of Scorching Ray SLA without depleting SP pool at all. But this is very new, and Scorching rays will be harder to target while jumping around than just spamming off acid rains and acid fogs. But its an interesting possibility.

Or you can just team up with some other people for EE content, and let them tank the EE mobs and stretch your SP pool, in which case any savant will do. I play during off-peak hours, so this is not really an option for me, unfortunately.

Wizza
09-11-2013, 09:56 AM
Snip

There are some serious issue with what you said.

First of all: the other savants WILL be able to take mobs down MUCH quicker than Earth. Unless you are playing a gimp character.

EE final fights are limited by spell pool, true. That is true for Earth savants too. I wouldn't take Zonixxx as an example as I think you've probably seen how many pots he has and use in EE quests. And he doesn't solo FYI. He also uses various exploits. And btw: the quests are not scaled because he logs off every char ;) .

NBS/ES are efficient "only if you can keep a stack of 3 refreshed and that is difficult". No, that is not unless you don't know how to play. You meantion acid rain but you know that it is no different from Wall of Fire right? Same initial tic, same ref save, same dmg. Acid fog is even worse: no initial tic and you have to stay in it to deal damage = you will have to kite in a very small area with mobs following you = not a good spell.

If you are Earth, you are probably a WF. WF = tons of Reconstruct wasted just to self-heal = even less sp to deal damage.

KD immunity and Abundant step: how do you get KD immunity? Using GMoF? Lol. And abundant step? How? You mean the flyby attack of DI? Or you do you use Exalted Angel? Cmon, don't kid us. Flyby has a CD of 1 min, it's nowhere near good as wings. Then, you state that you jump around enough and then you say you don't need wings? They improve your survavibility by a lot. And you don't "need KD immunity because you move around good enough" is just bs. You won't be able to move enough to dodge Improved trips, cometfall, giants KD etc. What ff you are crippled? You are going to be dead.

Timap
09-11-2013, 01:39 PM
There are some serious issue with what you said.

First of all: the other savants WILL be able to take mobs down MUCH quicker than Earth. Unless you are playing a gimp character.

EE final fights are limited by spell pool, true. That is true for Earth savants too. I wouldn't take Zonixxx as an example as I think you've probably seen how many pots he has and use in EE quests. And he doesn't solo FYI. He also uses various exploits. And btw: the quests are not scaled because he logs off every char ;) .

NBS/ES are efficient "only if you can keep a stack of 3 refreshed and that is difficult". No, that is not unless you don't know how to play. You meantion acid rain but you know that it is no different from Wall of Fire right? Same initial tic, same ref save, same dmg. Acid fog is even worse: no initial tic and you have to stay in it to deal damage = you will have to kite in a very small area with mobs following you = not a good spell.

If you are Earth, you are probably a WF. WF = tons of Reconstruct wasted just to self-heal = even less sp to deal damage.

KD immunity and Abundant step: how do you get KD immunity? Using GMoF? Lol. And abundant step? How? You mean the flyby attack of DI? Or you do you use Exalted Angel? Cmon, don't kid us. Flyby has a CD of 1 min, it's nowhere near good as wings. Then, you state that you jump around enough and then you say you don't need wings? They improve your survavibility by a lot. And you don't "need KD immunity because you move around good enough" is just bs. You won't be able to move enough to dodge Improved trips, cometfall, giants KD etc. What ff you are crippled? You are going to be dead.

I don't mean for this thread to devolve into a "my savant is better than your savant" thread. I only spoke up because it seems like no one is speaking up on behalf of the earth savants, possibly because most earth savants are loners/soloers. Indeed, I think that for much of the end game content, any savant will do, especially if you play in parties.

I concede your central point, which is that earth savants has the lowest DPS of the savant. The most effective way to avoid dmg is to kill mobs fast. If you have high DPS, you will be welcome in most groups, since you will complete quests faster. Under specialized situations (typically solo EE, or solo raids) where bringing down a mob fast is not a realistic option, and you have to tough it out, earth savants have an edge. Earth savants are tougher, because they can afford to put some points into Constitution and away from Charisma, since most of their spells are not DC-based. To play like this, you need to be WF for Reconstruct self-healing, and a pally splash is mandatory, since you will need to succeed on every saving throw.

EE final fights are indeed limited by SP pool. And all sorcs will need to drink SP pots at these end fights. This is why its not necessary to have a high Charisma at these fights. You WILL run out of SP, so really, the effective SP pool you have is limited by pot use. Other savants NEED to have high Cha so that mobs don't save against their spells. Acid spells are not DC-based, so it doesn't matter. In fact, Cha is mainly for the saving throw bonuses rather than SP pool for earth savants.

Will Earth savants drink less pots than other savants? Hard to say, because as Wizza pointed out, you will use up SP to reconstruct. The less DPS you have, the more time you spend jumping around, the more you will need to reconstruct due to the occasional hit. But the more important factor for me is the fragility aspect. A pure sorc savant often cannot take more than 2 hits before he's dead in EE end fights. You can realistically end up with a HP in the 800-900 mark with an earth savant, and can take 3-4 hits if you have some PRR. Even with a knockdown, there is a reasonable chance you'll stand up and reconstruct before you die. I find that an earth savant can more reliably solo EE end fights. You CAN solo with another savant, but it gets dicey. And the longer the fight, and the more trash mobs there are around, the more difficult the fight becomes for other savants, because the longer the time and the larger the number of moving parts, the more likely something will go wrong.

Now some comments about spells as an ES. Melf's Magic arrow is, of course, the only tier 2/3 savant SLA that has no save, and should be the go-to spell of an earth savant. The procs over time increases the chances that you'll get a +3SP back from your enhancement, and also Shiradi procs. Acid rain is not comparable to Wall of Fire/Ice storm, because its only 8s long while the others are 30s long. Its more of a slow-acting Fireball without the saving throw. Cloudkill is comparable to Wall of Fire/Ice storm in AoE, except that its 80s long rather than 30s long. If you can kite stuff throw Wall of Fire, you can kite through Cloudkill. The dmg is less, but its better dmg/SP. Unfortunately, the Con dmg doesn't apply to EE mobs. Finally, Acid Fog is the spell that shines. It has a large AoE, about 3-4 times that of Cloudkill, and applies 20% concealment, and lasts for 80s. 1-2 Acid Fogs should give plenty of room for kiting. No other damage spell lasts that long, or has that large an AoE. Incendiary Cloud comes close, but lasts only 30s. One tactic is to cast Acid Fog, then Ice storm within the fog to slow mobs down, and watch the Shiradi procs pile up. Acid Fog/Solid Fog then Acid Blast is another combo that works.

Now some comments on EDs. Draconic works. Shiradi also complements well since the procs are also not DC-based, and acid spells tend to hit many times for small amounts of damage. The Unyielding Sentinel Paladin ED is also surprisingly useful, especially against melee-based mobs that like to trip/knockdown you. Endless Lay on Hands is worth a twist to get a no-penalty no-fail instantaneous heal that regenerates over time. To most other builds, time is the enemy, but time is a friend to the ES.

If another earth savant would like to comment on playstyle, tactics or situations where an Earth savant will work, please chime in. I don't want to be the lone voice here.

Let the earth savant bashing continue after this brief interlude.

Missing_Minds
09-11-2013, 01:44 PM
This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. It is dead wrong.

Actually, any ultimatum including this one is normally very wrong, and the one Wizza quoted is actually correct (almost).

You don't need any of those things, but they are darn handy.

You DO need hit points if you are going to survive EE content.

Should a player claim that you *NEED* something, depending on what it is, that player probably needs work on their game playing or find stronger people to play with. Case depending.

Wizza
09-11-2013, 02:25 PM
snip

I'm not bashing earth savants, I just point things out. No time to reply at the moment thou :P


Actually, any ultimatum including this one is normally very wrong, and the one Wizza quoted is actually correct (almost).

You don't need any of those things, but they are darn handy.

You DO need hit points if you are going to survive EE content.

Should a player claim that you *NEED* something, depending on what it is, that player probably needs work on their game playing or find stronger people to play with. Case depending.

Yeah, no.

You NEED those things, they are not "darn handy". They are the essential defensive stuff of a caster. You DO NEED both HP and Displacement if you want to survive EE content. There is no story for that. I've playied enough EEs to understand the very basics of it. There is no way in hell a caster should not be displacement 100% time in EEs.

Sorry but it's not me who needs to work on my game playing. Probably neither you, no idea and don't care, but your point is wrong.

AtomicMew
09-11-2013, 02:48 PM
Seriously pointless. Maybe earth savant was competitive before U19, but it's a dead PrE now, except for flavor. Both fire and air gained massively in DPS and ice is still competitive due to being already really strong (and also due to a certain bug).

Earth has no versatility, no hyper efficient DPS (scorching ray/mm/shiradi) and no ability to burst DPS. Survivability is nothing compared to air's. Earth was questionable even before and gained NOTHING in the update. Come on guys, this isn't rocket science.

Enoach
09-11-2013, 03:43 PM
I think what is being missed due to peoples focusing too much on the word "NEED" and misunderstanding it more as "WANT". It really comes down to the following for any character in EE content.

In order to survive you "NEED" at least one more HP then what the last hit hits you for... Obviously you need to be able to take more than one hit, the size of the buffer that HPs lend each character can be evaluated based on the ability to ignore damage through PRR, Saves, Damage Shielding (Elemental Protections, damage reductions) and miss chances. Each player should measure this for both their Physical and Magical protection and use this to help gauge the "Right Amount" of HP for their character. This is needed to prevent yourself from always becoming a stone and to prevent yourself from becoming an ineffective "Wall of HP".

At EE questing you need Defensive capabilities to avoid damage, miss chances like Displacement and incorporeal and dodge especially combined make it harder to hit you physically which means less resources needed to stay alive and more resources available for Killing. Now against mobs not effected by Displacement or incorporeal defenses only Dodge stands between you an being hit. Here it is important to know your enemy.

But these don't protect you from Spell damage. Spell damage does not care if you have 50% displacement and 25% incorporeal or even 25% dodge. Here only Saves and the ability to absorb the spell damage will save you.

Next not all EE quests require you to "Steamroll" the dungeon to succeed. There are quiet a few that can be done with Finesse. Unfortunately for the newer content I can only think of two of these quests that can work this way and that is "Old stone" and "Breaking the Ice" both have end fights that have to be fought. But for the most part you can advance to the end with minimal fighting (or in simple terms you don't have to fight everything).

I agree that having displacement on any EE character goes a long way in avoiding incoming physical damage. It is unfortunate that the two aspects of AC was designed to scale while leaving Displacement/Incorporeal and dodge as flat values that are the same no matter what level range one is in.

Now EE quests can be done without these elements, but it will likely be resource intensive as well as exponentially harder to do.

Missing_Minds
09-11-2013, 03:48 PM
Sorry but it's not me who needs to work on my game playing. Probably neither you, no idea and don't care, but your point is wrong.
You only prove my point with your opinion.

I have been doing many a thing in game without stuff that people go "oh you need it 100% guaranteed".

Pfff.

Wizza
09-11-2013, 04:10 PM
You only prove my point with your opinion.

I have been doing many a thing in game without stuff that people go "oh you need it 100% guaranteed".

Pfff.

Cmon, you are telling me you have done EEs without a ton of HP and displacement? Please. If so, make a video and link it to me.

It's like telling people they don't need gear and you can do EEs naked. Nop, you NEED gear too on top of HP and Displacement.

Whatever anyway, can't be bothered to reply anymore on the matter. Keep suggesting people that they are just handy, not my problem.

Singular
09-15-2013, 03:02 AM
Oooops. Late night post.



You evidently didn't understand the benefits of the things you quoted in game. Saying to a caster "You don't need displacement" is as bad as saying to a fighter "You don't need a weapon, you can fight with your hands".

Just no.

His post was clearly sarcastic. He was saying "you don't need it, but you had better have it."

It's like saying "you don't need money to own this Ferrari..." or "you don't need a gun to kill a bear..."

Wizza
09-15-2013, 03:15 AM
His post was clearly sarcastic. He was saying "you don't need it, but you had better have it."

It's like saying "you don't need money to own this Ferrari..." or "you don't need a gun to kill a bear..."

Yeah and there is a huge difference between "you need" and "you better have". In this case, you need it. "You better have" implies that you can do EEs even without displacement or a ton of hp and it's not happening.

Soulfurnace
09-15-2013, 04:27 AM
Yeah and there is a huge difference between "you need" and "you better have". In this case, you need it. "You better have" implies that you can do EEs even without displacement or a ton of hp and it's not happening.
Can't do an EE without displacement?
Well. I'm fairly sure I went life 1-5 without displacement clickies (playing melees) but I guess not - I must've merely confused it with epic hard.

.5*.85*.9*.95 = 36% (chance of being hit.)
.8*.85*.9*.95 = 58% (chance of being hit.)

That's just basic (Displacement or blur), 15% dodge, 10% incorp and base 5% chance to defend at level.
Y'know what? The second one works, albeit not as well. I'm sure you'll refute that as well, however I do not care. I ran life 1-5 with those defences or worse, running EE - wasn't that big a deal, even though most lives didn't have access to insta HJEALZ through reconstruct.

thesnoman
09-15-2013, 08:36 AM
BACK ON TOPIC...


There's been several good points about Earth Savant at end game that I'd like to re-iterate. Please keep in mind that Earth Savant is my favorite Sorc to play - it (used to) fit how I like to play and is different from the endless masses of Fire, Air, and (formerly) Ice Savants.

Here's my little journey:

Pre MoTU - Warforged Earth Savant (with air secondary) was about the most survivable and self sufficient savant out there. Low saves and Damage over time made is extremely Damage/Spell point efficient with the combination of Web/Acid Rain/Solid Fog/Ice Storm/Melf's/Niac's not much survived - even on Epic.

MoTU - Earth Savant's could really shine going full Draconic. You could web just about anything in the game and then decimate them with with Burst/Flyby/Breath/Vortex and an occasional Melf's/BDB here and there. It was mass death and a whole lot of fun - even on EE content.

High Road - This release is where things started to go down hill for the Earth Savant. Enemy saves became ridiculous - Web was no longer holding MoBs, and backstabbing baddies could cut through 100% fortification like it was butter. Damage over Time became useless since enemies hit so hard - quick killing became the name of the game in EE just so you could survive. Earth Savant was becoming less viable for end-game content, although in a group it was still viable since the MoBs were so big and Web could still catch a few of them.

Epic Gianthold - The end of Earth Savant. Web became entirely useless on EE. SP Efficiency went down the tubes because you're constantly reconstructing yourself to stay alive. Groups don't want to pick you up because you're tough to keep alive. Shiradi build appears on the forums and is the death knell of most Savants out there. (My beloved Earth Savant included) At this point I TR'd from a Pure Sorc Earth Savant into an 18/2 Sorc/Pally Shiradi Air Savant.

U19/Enhanement Pass - I Had high hopes of resurrecting my Earth Savant, but after playing in Lamania and seeing what went live, I stuck to Air Savant and added some Fire to my arsenal while staying a WF Shiradi Sorc.

The problem now is that Fire and Air got a substantial boost in power Ice is about the same as it was pre-enhancement pass, and Earth got left in the dust.

Add to this that the EE MoBs in Wheloon and the Storm Horns have ridiculous reflex saves and evasion (bye bye acid blast and Draconic burst). Plus since the MoBs hit much harder and come in larger groups, the "kill fast to survive" mentality really kills all of the Earth Savant's viability in a group.


TODAY: Fire Savant is the king of DPS - especially if you take a couple of levels of FvS for the Angel of Vengeance tree to boost fire damage. Adding some Air Savant to Fire to boost up damage with Eldar's boosts the damage output even further.

Shiradi Air Savant with 2 Pally Levels is still my favorite toon, and I think it's still the most survivable of all the "new" shiradi caster builds I've seen cropping up. - He's been tweaked around a few times since the Enhancement Pass and he's taken some work to be able to solo the new content on EE, but I'm really liking what I've come up with.

Earth Savant in end game is pretty much dead. Unless you've got enough past lives and twists to boost your Conjuration high enough to overcome the reflex and fort saves of the new EE content, Earth Savant is no longer viable in group or solo play.

If you're a completionist - more power to you - Earth Savant could be fun, but for those of us that haven't ground out past lives - Earth Savant is dead for end game/EE content.

Wizza
09-15-2013, 10:32 AM
Earth Savant in end game is pretty much dead. Unless you've got enough past lives and twists to boost your Conjuration high enough to overcome the reflex and fort saves of the new EE content, Earth Savant is no longer viable in group or solo play.

If you're a completionist - more power to you - Earth Savant could be fun, but for those of us that haven't ground out past lives - Earth Savant is dead for end game/EE content.

IMHO, what an Earth Savant needs is a powerful AoE DoT Spell. As stated everywhere, Earth savant is a slow no-save killer. Let's keep it this way. They should add something like Storm of Vengeance but full acid damage. Or just up the damage of Acid Fog: not anymore 2d6 every 2 second but 4d6 with an initial tic so you can kite through it.

Asmodeus451
10-09-2013, 05:13 PM
IMHO, what an Earth Savant needs is a powerful AoE DoT Spell. As stated everywhere, Earth savant is a slow no-save killer. Let's keep it this way. They should add something like Storm of Vengeance but full acid damage. Or just up the damage of Acid Fog: not anymore 2d6 every 2 second but 4d6 with an initial tic so you can kite through it.

umm, you mean Acid Rain?

Exiledtyrant
10-09-2013, 07:25 PM
acid rain is amazing but earth could use 1 more aoe that can't be blown away. Acid blast starts to dwindle halfway through and is a reflex save which is against earth's theme entirely. The hardest fights I had while leveling either had khyber fire reavers or large groups of air mephites in them. Servants of the overlord where the fire reavers constantly blow away acid aoes and heavy mephite fights like the von arena quests come to mind. Cloud kill and acid fog take forever to cast unless you quicken them and have poor scaling.

acid aoes are also terrible for moving fights. needs to be a way to aoe dot for less damage than acid rain since it's concentrated damage is justified by it's weaknesses, but enough damage to put it on the hot bar. Maybe something like a buffed contagion. It has a disease that does 6d6 acid and can spread to others but it only ticks every minute and has fort saves. Making a buffed version of that would really help out. They could even put it in the earth savant line to help diversify the generic savants trees that only have like 4 things that aren't same.

Wizza
10-10-2013, 04:37 AM
umm, you mean Acid Rain?

I said powerful, not medriocre. 1d4 dmg, max 15d4 damage and only lasts 8 sec = avg 37.5 dmg (per tic) * 4 tics = 150 avg damage per cast.

What I have in mind is something much more powerful. 1d4 per CL, UNCAPPED AND WORKING PROPERLY so 30d4 at CL30, lasts 12 seconds. 75 avg damage * 6 tics = 420 avg damage.

Of couse Fire, Elec and Ice should have a similar but less powerful spell. Say capped at 25.

era42
10-10-2013, 06:02 AM
I said powerful, not medriocre. 1d4 dmg, max 15d4 damage and only lasts 8 sec = avg 37.5 dmg (per tic) * 4 tics = 150 avg damage per cast.

What I have in mind is something much more powerful. 1d4 per CL, UNCAPPED AND WORKING PROPERLY so 30d4 at CL30, lasts 12 seconds. 75 avg damage * 6 tics = 420 avg damage.

Of couse Fire, Elec and Ice should have a similar but less powerful spell. Say capped at 25.

Acid rain 15d4 (ddo: 15 * (2+1d2) = 52.5) , Firewall 2d6 + 15 (ddo: 2d3+6+15 = 25). So, double the damage of firewall in 2 second intervalls, instead of the longer ticks (6s) of wall of fire. First tick is evaded, the others are no-save, so after first 6 seconds firewall is evaded once, acid rain is evaded once and does damage twice. After 8 seconds rain does the third and last hit, 4 seconds before firewalls first non-evaded damage. So, say 12 seconds, within that time firewall does 25 basedamage and acid rain does 150.

Sure, delayed blast fireball (level 20) will do 100 points instantly, but that can be evaded, making the acid rains 150 unevaded and 50 evaded damage nice in comparison. Nothing beats acid rain when killing mephits on an average-DC arcane.

That said, I wouldn't mind an aoe dot. At heroic levels, just straight blast spells are kings, and at higher difficulty epics blasts / persistent aoe:s just don't cut it with the high hps, saves and damage. It's much harder to get the full 8 seconds of acid rain without wasting too much mana on healing, not to mention the miniscule effect the aoe damage does on inflated EE mob hit points. This doesn't make acid rain bad in comparison to other damage spells, it makes all damage spells bad in comparison to monsters. Your suggested dot-damage die is too much compared to other spells. That would make it better than pretty much any other spell around. The fact that max caster levels are tuned from the times of max level 12 is another story and another discussion.