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Mikke
08-21-2013, 05:19 PM
Hi All,
I don't know if it's just me but does anyone else feel that the Shintao monk has been nerfed to unbelievable measures?

Before update 19 the Shintao monk was a paragon of goodness that was highly useful in a party and never needed a shrine. Now it seems that it is just a self sufficient class that needs to shrine every two minutes.

In addition there is no more passive ki generation which isn't really a problem but it's a pain not being able to use the monk moves that actually do work.

I am also experiencing difficulties understanding why or new self res capability has a 15 min timer on it AND a once per rest?

This until recently has been my favourite class to play and personally I'd gladly give up the touch of the dragon and the self res to be able to be useful in a party again?

Can someone please help me find the 'LOVE' of this class again. I really feel it is broken and invite other's insight.

Cheers

rimble
08-21-2013, 06:29 PM
Take Henshin up to the Ki Regen +1, it's not that far. You can even take Elegant Crane along the way for more Ki. Or Ninja Spy for Shadow Veil. Or both.

This update is REALLY pro-multiclass, and pro-multiPrE. It's not enough to just look at Shintao, you have to look at it with whatever else you can cram in there too.

I'm not on a Monk life right now, what is making you have to shrine constantly?

HastyPudding
08-21-2013, 08:40 PM
I'm not sure which game you're playing, but my Shintao kicks butt. Thanks to the new heal skill, a neat little item I found (has +8 wisdom and some devotion), human healing amplification, full Shintao core abilities, and some healing amplification items, I am healing myself for about 190-240 or so on non-critical healing ki's. I did a quest earlier in the new area without a cleric, and I literally kept a barbarian, a rogue, and myself alive just by spamming healing ki during the fights.

With earth stance active (and the Shintao enhancements for earth stance) and in GMoF destiny, I can reach 55 PRR without a PRR item and 82 AC without trying, along with a nice 26% dodge (I got a dodge cap of 28 due to Ninja Spy). Add in the Ninja's shadow veil 25% incorporeal effect and I can negate a great deal of damage. On top of that, if you're unarmed, you can increase your unarmed die step to 1d8, and earth stance is nice for increasing your critical damage. Also, Shintao still has their full line of jade tomb, tainted smite, and the oh-so-lovely kukan-do.

So yeah, I'm having a blast. I do feel Shintao seems almost forced into earth stance, but it makes them very, very survivable.

As for the shrine situation, that's probably a henshin thing; they're going to want to keep their meditations to use on cauldron of flame. Shintao also only get 1 use of phoenix per rest.

Mikke
08-22-2013, 07:36 PM
I'm not sure which game you're playing, but my Shintao kicks butt. Thanks to the new heal skill, a neat little item I found (has +8 wisdom and some devotion), human healing amplification, full Shintao core abilities, and some healing amplification items, I am healing myself for about 190-240 or so on non-critical healing ki's. I did a quest earlier in the new area without a cleric, and I literally kept a barbarian, a rogue, and myself alive just by spamming healing ki during the fights.

With earth stance active (and the Shintao enhancements for earth stance) and in GMoF destiny, I can reach 55 PRR without a PRR item and 82 AC without trying, along with a nice 26% dodge (I got a dodge cap of 28 due to Ninja Spy). Add in the Ninja's shadow veil 25% incorporeal effect and I can negate a great deal of damage. On top of that, if you're unarmed, you can increase your unarmed die step to 1d8, and earth stance is nice for increasing your critical damage. Also, Shintao still has their full line of jade tomb, tainted smite, and the oh-so-lovely kukan-do.

So yeah, I'm having a blast. I do feel Shintao seems almost forced into earth stance, but it makes them very, very survivable.

As for the shrine situation, that's probably a henshin thing; they're going to want to keep their meditations to use on cauldron of flame. Shintao also only get 1 use of phoenix per rest.

Hi Hasty,

Thanks for your reply. The monk itself is very self sufficient but try to get rid of a party member's curse or res them , or get rid of stat damage for them and it's a no go. you can do it yourself but not so much for others. And that is what I'm speaking about. Monks do kick ass even more now but the function in which they play in a party has diminished significantly.
Mind you the flip side of that is that it appears clerics and Rogues are regaining there importance within a party and since this game has always been a multi-player game . I'm actually starting to sing a different tune then I was yesterday. If it is heading towards of the direction of requiring a full party to achieve a quest / raid completion, I'm all for that :-)
Thanks again for your insight.

Cheers

Mike

seebs
08-31-2013, 11:45 PM
Take Henshin up to the Ki Regen +1, it's not that far.

The only "Ki Regen +1" I can find in Henshin is Serenity, "requires: 40 points spent in tree".

... ah-hah, someone in game points out that Contemplation adds ki regen at 3/3.

Mikke
09-01-2013, 08:29 PM
The only "Ki Regen +1" I can find in Henshin is Serenity, "requires: 40 points spent in tree".

... ah-hah, someone in game points out that Contemplation adds ki regen at 3/3.

Thanks Seeb,

I'm actually liking the shin Tao quite a bit again. turns out I needed to relearn how to use some of the skills again:-) maybe I need to read a bit more before I post :-P

Shados_Draconioas
09-02-2013, 04:13 PM
Mikke, I've looked over shintao on my own monk since the enhancement revamp, and I have to tell you, some things I'm not seeing.


The monk itself is very self sufficient but try to get rid of a party member's curse or res them , or get rid of stat damage for them and it's a no go. you can do it yourself but not so much for others. And that is what I'm speaking about. Monks do kick ass even more now but the function in which they play in a party has diminished significantly.

Let's start with this: If you look at Shintao, you can add "Remove Curse" to your "Healing Ki" finisher. This is incredible in places like ToD or VoD where removing EVERYONES curses comes in handy, as opposed to one person at a time (which is what the old enhancement was). This can also be done for diseases, blindness, and even stat damage.

As for the passive ki regen, that's now under Henshin, which isn't a problem if you take ALMOST all of the enhancements from Shintao. In my opinion, there's some things you don't REALLY need (example: Ki Shout) so you can move points over in order to take Contemplation from Henshin Mystic. It'll only take 8 points to do this.

Also, I don't know what race your monk is, but my monk is a Half-Elf. his racial feat for H-Elf was fighter, but is now Cleric and I've gained back some healing Amp and gained the ability to scroll heal/raise other party members if needed. It's a small change from the old Rise of the Phoenix, but it's something. And I DO agree with you that I miss the old version.

As for the new one, well, some things had to change, I guess. It'll be something to use, or give up if you like something else better. If you have more questions, by all means, ask away. I'll act as the Temple Elder and help you find the Path.

Just don't give up on the monk. We are STILL one of the bad-ass melee's in the game. We still hold our own, and we STILL rock the world (in mountain stance!).

Violith
09-02-2013, 04:32 PM
Thanks Seeb,

I'm actually liking the shin Tao quite a bit again. turns out I needed to relearn how to use some of the skills again:-) maybe I need to read a bit more before I post :-P

there's alot more ki regen then before
+1 ki regen in ninja spy, the 3rd tier of the stealthy enhancement, and its only when sneaking (4 pts spent)
+1 ki regen in henshin, the 3rd tier of Contemplation (8 pts spend total)
all monks cna get the 3rd and 4th tier of water stance which has +1 ki regen.

so even without the previous capstone (which got moved into another tree I believe, its possibel to get decent ki regen and alot quicker then before.

dkyle
09-03-2013, 10:21 PM
Does passive Ki generation even mean that much in practice? I had it for a while first by spending points in Henshin, but got them back once I got it from Grandmaster of Flowers, but now that I'm leveling other EDs, I don't feel like I really miss it, except occasionally in public zones.

I can't live without Enhanced Ki somewhere, though. That makes a huge difference.

Therigar
09-04-2013, 12:02 AM
I don't know if it's just me....

It must be.

I get 114 AC and 105 PRR with 150% fortification while spending 44ap in Shintao, 29ap in Ninja Spy and 7ap in racial enhancements.

I don't need to shrine and almost never need to take a break to meditate. With Ivy Wraps and the Ninja Spy enhancements plus Stunning Fist I am healing faster than I take damage most of the time.

I think monk got a huge boost with the enhancement pass. The only reason I'm sticking with the gimp build I have now is because it is a first life character still at L25 and I'm busy playing others at the moment.

But, if Turbine continues to "break" Shintao like they have with this update I'll have to convert all of my characters over. I can't even imagine what it would be like running the character with 36 build points or with a more synergistic race choice.

seebs
09-04-2013, 12:19 AM
Does passive Ki generation even mean that much in practice? I had it for a while first by spending points in Henshin, but got them back once I got it from Grandmaster of Flowers, but now that I'm leveling other EDs, I don't feel like I really miss it, except occasionally in public zones.

I can't live without Enhanced Ki somewhere, though. That makes a huge difference.

What's "Enhanced Ki" as opposed to ki generation? The one thing I note is that each "increased ki generation" ability also effectively increases your stable ki pool -- if you have +1 passive ki generation, you are stable at 2x concentration in ki points.

Toro12
09-04-2013, 12:25 AM
What's "Enhanced Ki" as opposed to ki generation? The one thing I note is that each "increased ki generation" ability also effectively increases your stable ki pool -- if you have +1 passive ki generation, you are stable at 2x concentration in ki points.

Passive ki regen used to be from the capstone where you gain 1 ki every few seconds.
Enhanced ki is found on items and it gives you extra ki per hit.

Bilger
09-04-2013, 12:36 AM
There are multiple sources of key generation.

1. Water stance beleive have to have ultimatr stance has Ki regen. Switch to water when in between fights and back to mountain when fighting. Best used by Monkcher types though.

2. Ninja Spy as others said.

3. If have 2 fighter lvl's can go to ascetic training in kensai line and get contemplation which regens Ki also.

Those are the 3 ways I know of. As far as self suffeciancy monks have the highest in the game especially Shintao with HA and AC, PRR, Saves, and high dodge.

I never have to shrine on mine accept to get back my slotted 200sp for cocoon. Even then that is rarely needed. Between light spamming and healing amp I have no issues.

Soulfurnace
09-04-2013, 01:39 AM
As far as self suffeciancy monks have the highest in the game especially Shintao with HA and AC, PRR, Saves, and high dodge.
Are high up*
Considering AC is meaningless, you can get more prr as a non-monk, same dodge (if in robes), whereas heal amp only matters for low-healing classes. My cleric has heal amp purely for fun. The ability to use the spell Heal with prr, evasion and 26% dodge is greater than anything a monk gets. :)

Bilger
09-04-2013, 02:24 AM
Are high up*
Considering AC is meaningless, you can get more prr as a non-monk, same dodge (if in robes), whereas heal amp only matters for low-healing classes. My cleric has heal amp purely for fun. The ability to use the spell Heal with prr, evasion and 26% dodge is greater than anything a monk gets. :)

Not to derail, AC is not meaningless in this game at all. Yes, PRR and dodge are more important to push up, but you do benifit from high AC. Without trying hit 120 on monk and see a lot of misses. Near untouchablle matched with dodge and decent prr in EH content. In EE it is less meaningless, but still see plenty of misses to make it more than useful. That is my OP though and I do like to get AC when can and doesn't hurt my dodge, PRR, or DPS.

Now that is all a matter of my OP a lot of people will disagree, but I do believe AC is relevant any miss is less damage taken, and more survivability.

That is also your personal OP on clerics I could say the same of my cleric, FVS, palemaster, or any one of my characters. It is a matter of OP on what you find to you is the most survivable to you. This isn't a thread comparing monk to cleric though or if AC is relevant or not .

Sorry for derail.

Therigar
09-04-2013, 08:14 AM
Considering AC is meaningless, you can get more prr as a non-monk, same dodge (if in robes), whereas heal amp only matters for low-healing classes. My cleric has heal amp purely for fun. The ability to use the spell Heal with prr, evasion and 26% dodge is greater than anything a monk gets. :)

I mentioned earlier in the thread that my monk is getting 114 AC, 105 PRR. His dodge is 28%. My character is a L25 monk.

The character does not need the Heal spell because, short of eElite, he is not getting hit often enough. Ivy Wraps regenerate hit points faster than the character loses them. In the rare cases where that doesn't happen a meditation break after the combat is enough to bring him back to full health.

Since I don't typically solo eElite content the lack of pressure that comes from being in a group -- other group members share the aggro of the eElite mobs -- means that even getting hit in eElite still leaves me able to carry on without needing access to the Heal spell.

Therigar
09-04-2013, 08:47 AM
AC is not meaningless in this game at all.

That is correct.

There was a time when AC was meaningless. At that time HP plus DPS was all that mattered. Then the AC system changed.

Since that time it has become a balancing game with many elements involved. Players are routinely pushing to find the highest sustainable numbers in several categories. And, the best defenses involve finding the best synergy and balance among all of the different factors.

My monk combines 150% fortification, 114 AC, 105 PRR, 28% Dodge, 10% incorporeality (ghostly), 10% concealment (dusk) and 10/epic/10/good DR. At level that starts with something like 68% defense chance from AC. Let's look at that for a moment.

Assume 100 rolls for hits, 68 miss due to AC. Of the 32 remaining 3 miss due to concealment. Of the 29 remaining 3 miss due to incorporeality. Of the 26 remaining 7 miss due to dodge. That means 19 of the 100 possible hits manage to make it through.

Under most circumstances 150% fortification is enough to prevent any critical hits, so typical damage is no more than 100 points per hit. Of that 42 is stopped by PRR. Out of the remaining 58 another 10 is stopped by DR. This means in 100 attacks my monk is taking 19*48=912 damage in what is really a worst case scenario.

But, my monk is attacking faster than the mobs. With TWF and the various bonuses to melee speed, even allowing for normal misses, he's getting in well over 200 hits during the same period of time. With Ivy Wraps giving him 4 HP per hit in regeneration he gets back 800 HP in the fight.

So, worst case, my monk is down a bit over 100 HP when the fight is over. He meditates for >30 HP per tick, so roughly 20 seconds later he's at full health and ready to move to the next encounter.

The key is finding the best balance and synergy among all of the different parts. My monk is a gimpy first life halfling. Consider what he could be like on a third or higher life and with a race choice really able to leverage the best healing amps.

AC is not meaningless in DDO at the moment. To the contrary, used as part of the whole package it is an essential part in building a quality character.

Ravand
09-04-2013, 05:01 PM
I mentioned earlier in the thread that my monk is getting 114 AC, 105 PRR. His dodge is 28%. My character is a L25 monk.

Therigar, could you throw up your build and EDs? I can get by with a Cliff's Notes version as long as it's not too Acronym-heavy. I just TR'd a toon into a monk (my first one), currently at lvl 6, and I am looking for ideas. Also, having a blast I must say!

Therigar
09-04-2013, 09:43 PM
Therigar, could you throw up your build and EDs?

Credit for the build goes to my son who borrowed ideas from others and researched all the synergy.

Halfling, 32 point first life, 6/18/12/10/18/8 with stat increases in WIS, +4 tomes in all stats. Dodge, mobility, spring attack, stunning fist, combat expertise, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, toughness, IC:bludgeon, path of inevitable dominion, vorpal strikes, improved martial arts.

Maxed destinies: GMoF, Exalted Angel, Shadowdancer, Unyielding Sentinel. All other destinies have 4 levels in them. Used fate tome for 2 fate points.

Twists: Standing with Stone, Improved Combat Expertise, Dance of Flowers. Run in Unbreakable stance with Unyielding Sentinel as active destiny.

US: Bane of Undeath, Brace for Impact (2), Consitution (3), Healing Hands, Endless Lay on Hands (3), Spark of Life, Hardened (3), Undying Vanguard. Hands are just filler points, there are probably more useful choices as the LoH amount is very trivial.

Enhancements: 44ap in Shintao including 2 WIS, Kukan-Do, Violence Begets Violence, Meditation of War and Open Hand Mastery; 29ap in Ninja Spy including 1 DEX, 1 WIS, Sting of the Ninja and No Mercy (3); 7ap racial with all 5 core enhancements.

Running with Sun Soul set at L25, need 4 commendations to upgrade Spiderspun to Sun Soul set.

In mountain stance w CE on this gives 114 AC (no ship buffs), 105 PRR, 28% max dodge (currently standing at 26%), 30 spell resistance, DR 10/epic (2), DR 10/good, 150% fortification, 10% incorporeal standing (25% with Shadow Veil), 10% blur, Sun Soul procs 25% miss chance in mountain stance (not positive how this stacks with everything else).

Currently using eHard Ivy Wraps enabling Ninja Spy DEX modifier to damage (modified 32 DEX w tomes, gear, enhancements but w/o ship buffs). Modified WIS is 42 w/o ship buffs, yugo potions, etc.

Hope that helps.

Ravand
09-10-2013, 12:52 PM
Hope that helps.

You bet it did. Thank you, and +1 rep.

Irongutz2000
09-12-2013, 07:18 AM
Hi Hasty,

Thanks for your reply. The monk itself is very self sufficient but try to get rid of a party member's curse or res them , or get rid of stat damage for them and it's a no go. you can do it yourself but not so much for others. And that is what I'm speaking about. Monks do kick ass even more now but the function in which they play in a party has diminished significantly.
Mind you the flip side of that is that it appears clerics and Rogues are regaining there importance within a party and since this game has always been a multi-player game . I'm actually starting to sing a different tune then I was yesterday. If it is heading towards of the direction of requiring a full party to achieve a quest / raid completion, I'm all for that :-)
Thanks again for your insight.

Cheers

Mike

Try the cleric dilly if that's what u want outta a monk

TeacherSyn
09-12-2013, 03:21 PM
I understand how the OP feels. It's not a matter of gameplay, but class theme and style.

The Light/Shintao before Update 19 had "battle cleric" written all over it--a "Cleric's cleric" if that could be said. Monks (by game theme in D&D lore) is a generous, altruistic class and the Light Monk's abilities, before the update, reflected this.

Now, while similar abilities are there, what are now known as "elemental curatives" appear to work only on the Monk himself. How selfish, but more importantly, how un-helpful to the party--and uncharacteristic for this D&D class.

The most significant change involves Rise of the Phoenix. I can understand why this was altered. I preferred it over the old Monk Improved Recovery III as raising dead in a crisis was a godsend, especially in a very challenging quest where deaths are more frequent after ship buffs and resources are taxed. Most players opted otherwise. That ship of arguments has sailed; what remains of "Monk Improved Recovery" is found 5% at a time from each of the Shintao's class core enhancements.

The first alpha version turned RotF into some "Avatar-state" god-mode but was brought back to its roots by final release and improved: It's now a Resurrection spell useful only to the Monk at death.

Wow. Way to help a party. At least once you're back up, you can scramble to gather soulstones and take them back to a shrine or to a party member that's a "real" healer.

Again, it's not a matter of the new Shintao's prowess in fighting. (In fact, my tanker is FAR more durable and versatile.) It's a matter of how you expect a class to behave. Do you expect a Fighter to stand behind the spellcasters? No. They are meant for the front lines and players play their characters to the class's theme. Do spellcasters run forward to grab aggro? No. They are walking artillery batteries that support the team from the background.

I know the arguments to use Half-Elf Cleric dillettante to get some of this aid back. That's nice, but not all of us enjoy or desire to go "munchkin" on every toon, multiclassing and tweaking every single thing. We create a class to enjoy the characteristics of that class, not necessarily to feel compelled to add something to the character from elsewhere that should already be part of the class's abilities.

Of the three Monk trees, the Shintao lost something philosophical in its foundation. It's been Flanderized (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization) a bit, to take a TV Tropism. Sure, we're good fighters. But the devs, in my opinion, have taken that aspect and overemphasized its importance at a sacrifice to the class's theme.

In contrast, the Ninja Spy has gone RADICALLY ninja and I enjoy it most of all. I'm getting the feel for the Henshin (you treat ki as spellpoints more and spell power works to it...hm. I've not much experience in spell casters) but it, too, has a good theme as well as game style.

inspiredunease
09-13-2013, 10:13 AM
... snip


Well reasoned, well organised post, but I think Shintao has not lost anything, it's merely been altered from a healer/buffer theme to buffer/protector (which I think still fits with it's thematic roots). I'm enjoying it personally, but still think it needs tweaking back a little in the other direction. The loss of the targetable rise of the phoenix is the biggest thing as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully over time we will continue to see more balancing, as we are with Henshin with update 19 patch 2: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/376774-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-9-12-2013%29?p=4503430#post4503430.

Failedlegend
09-13-2013, 10:48 AM
My 3 big issues with Shintao are as follows

1 - Rise of the Phoenix went from pretty useful to pointless...when things go south monks are often the ones that survive it all so changing it from a rez to a self-rez not only makes it pointless it also make it so you have to save 100 ki for it to work instead of Pre-U19 you could just use meditate or if you have the GMoF ED you could use Inner Focus, than walk around rezzing people not to mention it cost half as much ki. The cooldown is also 15 minuites instead of 15 seconds.

Pre-U19: Decent ability that made shintao/light monk quite attractive
Post-U19: Pointless ability that will rarely be used due to cooldown and requiring a large amount of ki to be banked

2 - The curatives...at first I though this was really cool taking the whole line cause your healing ki burst finisher to cure blindness, curses, disease and adds a lessor restoration effect..than I found out you can only have one active at a time..making this once again fairly useless beyond taking the first tier (probably curses) this isn't U19s fault they just failed to fix them to not suck.

3 - There's NO way for an unarmed monk to get a non-standard stat to damage...Dex or Wisdom obviously being the targets with Weapon Finesse allowing for dex to-hit (wisdom makes more sense imo) this would have worked perfectly in the shintao line...I'd say replace that useless "Protection from Tainted creatures" with "Ki Strike" Wisdom to damage when fighting with any monk weapons including handwraps/unarmed.

TeacherSyn
09-13-2013, 07:18 PM
Well reasoned, well organised post, but I think Shintao has not lost anything, it's merely been altered from a healer/buffer theme to buffer/protector (which I think still fits with it's thematic roots). I'm enjoying it personally, but still think it needs tweaking back a little in the other direction. The loss of the targetable rise of the phoenix is the biggest thing as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully over time we will continue to see more balancing, as we are with Henshin with update 19 patch 2: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/376774-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-9-12-2013%29?p=4503430#post4503430.

Agree on the Henshin. It's an unusual class tree that needs a LOT more spellpower options but is pretty fun. It's new, and it took time for the Monk as a whole to come into its own in the game, so patience is a virtue.

While it sounds like the devs still have "many additions and changes" for patch 2, let's hope that add a simple Void attack as an optional feat (or one that's granted) for those level 10 finishers that can't work unless you're a Henshin.

TeacherSyn
09-13-2013, 07:27 PM
My 3 big issues with Shintao are as follows

1 - Rise of the Phoenix went from pretty useful to pointless...when things go south monks are often the ones that survive it all so changing it from a rez to a self-rez not only makes it pointless it also make it so you have to save 100 ki for it to work instead of Pre-U19 you could just use meditate or if you have the GMoF ED you could use Inner Focus, than walk around rezzing people not to mention it cost half as much ki. The cooldown is also 15 minuites instead of 15 seconds.

Pre-U19: Decent ability that made shintao/light monk quite attractive
Post-U19: Pointless ability that will rarely be used due to cooldown and requiring a large amount of ki to be banked

2 - The curatives...at first I though this was really cool taking the whole line cause your healing ki burst finisher to cure blindness, curses, disease and adds a lessor restoration effect..than I found out you can only have one active at a time..making this once again fairly useless beyond taking the first tier (probably curses) this isn't U19s fault they just failed to fix them to not suck.

3 - There's NO way for an unarmed monk to get a non-standard stat to damage...Dex or Wisdom obviously being the targets with Weapon Finesse allowing for dex to-hit (wisdom makes more sense imo) this would have worked perfectly in the shintao line...I'd say replace that useless "Protection from Tainted creatures" with "Ki Strike" Wisdom to damage when fighting with any monk weapons including handwraps/unarmed.

Using the curatives one at a time isn't an issue as much as the extra ki required just to use them. It's quite easy to select any to use anytime and doesn't break a charged Healing Ki finisher. It just now takes about 10 seconds to activate it. The change is welcome in format since you can grab it much earlier in the game and don't have to wait to remove your curses until that ability is unlocked and when you're a certain level as in the old system.

I've decided to workaround the raise-dead issue with a little-known (in my sphere, anyway) trinket: Onyx of the Twelve. It's a one-shot that you can make with 10 planar shards from the Subterrane. You can only carry one at a time, being exclusive, but at least it's handy for those emergencies.

BOgre
09-30-2013, 08:53 PM
Currently using eHard Ivy Wraps enabling Ninja Spy DEX modifier to damage (modified 32 DEX w tomes, gear, enhancements but w/o ship buffs). Modified WIS is 42 w/o ship buffs, yugo potions, etc.

Hope that helps.

Is this actually working? There seems to be some debate regarding Weapon Type (bludgeon?) v. Damage Type (piercing?). Obviously, I WANT it to work, since a Wis/Dex monk is right up my alley, but if it isn't working, then it's possible that Wis/Dex monks may be dead... Confirm?

LrdSlvrhnd
10-01-2013, 12:51 AM
Now, while similar abilities are there, what are now known as "elemental curatives" appear to work only on the Monk himself. How selfish, but more importantly, how un-helpful to the party--and uncharacteristic for this D&D class.

I can't really speak to much of it (my main monk is still slogging through a barb life, and my other monk is still rather low level and gets hardly any play 'cause he's on an alt server) but this I can say is wrong. It affects everyone who gets hit with the healing ki, as I know from getting hit with it *by* a monk. RotP is self-only, but the others are AoE. I use Fists of Light/Healing Ki far more than any other combo, simply because I prefer getting healed to taking down a mob a couple of seconds more quickly, so this makes it work better for me (That, and I never took that line before anyway...)

But yeah. RotP not-withstanding, the elemental curatives are *more* helpful to the party. And while I was always kind of envious of my monk friend's ability to raise the cleric... well, that's what Shroud triple-pos items with raise dead clickies are for. Heck, even my neg-UMD barb can bring back the cleric! But the spammed AoE Remove Curse in ToD? Love it.

Uska
10-01-2013, 02:39 AM
Credit for the build goes to my son who borrowed ideas from others and researched all the synergy.

Halfling, 32 point first life, 6/18/12/10/18/8 with stat increases in WIS, +4 tomes in all stats. Dodge, mobility, spring attack, stunning fist, combat expertise, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, toughness, IC:bludgeon, path of inevitable dominion, vorpal strikes, improved martial arts.

Maxed destinies: GMoF, Exalted Angel, Shadowdancer, Unyielding Sentinel. All other destinies have 4 levels in them. Used fate tome for 2 fate points.

Twists: Standing with Stone, Improved Combat Expertise, Dance of Flowers. Run in Unbreakable stance with Unyielding Sentinel as active destiny.

US: Bane of Undeath, Brace for Impact (2), Consitution (3), Healing Hands, Endless Lay on Hands (3), Spark of Life, Hardened (3), Undying Vanguard. Hands are just filler points, there are probably more useful choices as the LoH amount is very trivial.

Enhancements: 44ap in Shintao including 2 WIS, Kukan-Do, Violence Begets Violence, Meditation of War and Open Hand Mastery; 29ap in Ninja Spy including 1 DEX, 1 WIS, Sting of the Ninja and No Mercy (3); 7ap racial with all 5 core enhancements.

Running with Sun Soul set at L25, need 4 commendations to upgrade Spiderspun to Sun Soul set.

In mountain stance w CE on this gives 114 AC (no ship buffs), 105 PRR, 28% max dodge (currently standing at 26%), 30 spell resistance, DR 10/epic (2), DR 10/good, 150% fortification, 10% incorporeal standing (25% with Shadow Veil), 10% blur, Sun Soul procs 25% miss chance in mountain stance (not positive how this stacks with everything else).

Currently using eHard Ivy Wraps enabling Ninja Spy DEX modifier to damage (modified 32 DEX w tomes, gear, enhancements but w/o ship buffs). Modified WIS is 42 w/o ship buffs, yugo potions, etc.

Hope that helps.



Thanks I might use this one myself

inspiredunease
10-01-2013, 10:48 AM
Is this actually working? There seems to be some debate regarding Weapon Type (bludgeon?) v. Damage Type (piercing?). Obviously, I WANT it to work, since a Wis/Dex monk is right up my alley, but if it isn't working, then it's possible that Wis/Dex monks may be dead... Confirm?

Yes. They've fixed it.

TeacherSyn
10-01-2013, 11:35 AM
I can't really speak to much of it (my main monk is still slogging through a barb life, and my other monk is still rather low level and gets hardly any play 'cause he's on an alt server) but this I can say is wrong. It affects everyone who gets hit with the healing ki, as I know from getting hit with it *by* a monk. RotP is self-only, but the others are AoE. I use Fists of Light/Healing Ki far more than any other combo, simply because I prefer getting healed to taking down a mob a couple of seconds more quickly, so this makes it work better for me (That, and I never took that line before anyway...)

But yeah. RotP not-withstanding, the elemental curatives are *more* helpful to the party. And while I was always kind of envious of my monk friend's ability to raise the cleric... well, that's what Shroud triple-pos items with raise dead clickies are for. Heck, even my neg-UMD barb can bring back the cleric! But the spammed AoE Remove Curse in ToD? Love it.

Yep. Confirmed that the curatives are mass-procing. Was great to have mass-remove curses in a past CiTW run.

Guess I'll make a lot of Subterrane runs to create some Raise Dead crystals for super emergencies for my Human characters. The Half Elves with Cleric skillz have it covered.

sephiroth1084
10-01-2013, 03:17 PM
For raising you can make a tier II Pos/Pos Shroud item, grind (or hunt the AH) for a Ring of the Ancestors (rare drop in end chest of Slavers of the Shrieking Mines), or acquire any of the options for single-use clickies.

For the Ring of the Ancestors, I used to do runs on my wizard that took about 3 minutes total from The Foothold and back. Now, with the ability to reset a quest at the entrance, you could cut that time in half. Grab a buddy and start ransacking that chest: you can have as many rings as you like. Personally, I farmed up two before I called it quits, though I might consider running those again now that it's faster.

SensaiRyu
10-09-2013, 04:39 PM
Credit for the build goes to my son who borrowed ideas from others and researched all the synergy.
[Snip]

Hope that helps.

+1rep to your son. I went and tried it. Big help!

I consider my monk a Shintao monk. I don't think it's broken.

I put most of my points into the shintao tree. Also took a bit of Ninja, Henshin, and HElf to make a better Shintao. I've ran in US before and have been unimpressed. So, I only used it for certain quests. After looking at your post I took another look and am pretty happy with the results.

Selected enhancements grant me Veil for incorp, ki regen, added HP/AC, and the ability to self restore/heal.

I've had US for a long time but only used it for tanking - DPS was noticeably lower than when running in LD. So I decided to spend my time in LD and gave up on US (except for an occasional tanking run).

However, your suggestions have put me back in the 150AC range (ship buffs and Epic Mage Armor) and a PRR of 84 (without Standing twisted in) in Earth and Unbreakable stances. I also have DPS/PRR/AP options available via twists. Air stance is a bit less, but still workable.

Also, for the first time in a long time I'm looking at almost 900HP.

Blinding Speed and Epic Mage Armor are great with this build (and probably other builds too).

In earth stance I have a 6% doublestrike (with a ring) and can twist in 3% more. Standing Attack Speed is +15%.

These are my US abilities per tier:
Brace for Impact (2), Con
Fanaticism, Endless Smiting (2), Con
Intolerant Blow, Con
Hardened (3), Ward against Evil (3)
Undying Vanguard

What do I miss from my previous enhancements? Void strike and Tomb of Jade mostly. However, with my quickbar lineup post U17, I found that I used them less and less. U19 gave me the opportunity to take Shadow Veil. I've been on and off considering to go back to dark just to have it. Now I get it and and have a solid Shintao lineup.

To the OP, Shintao's definitely not broken and the U19 enhancement lineup is way more tailorable than what it was before.

QuantumFX
10-10-2013, 03:18 AM
On topic: While my monk is currently a ninja, the shintao is still a solid monk choice. Hell, I have the first 4 core abilities on my ninja just for the alchemical fingers.

The following abilities are **** sexy:
Deft Strikes: This is something other monk types will invest in.
Ki Shout: 2 APs over trying to fit in Intimidate? Yes, please!
Iron Skin: Something other monks will invest in.
Dismissing Strike: A very potent insta kill for EH content.
Kukan Do: At range stunning is *still* effing awesome.
Empty Hand Mastery: This is a permanent 25% damage increase for an unarmed fighter.
Meditation of War: Is great if you have the Shintao capstone.

First, Rise of the Phoenix is just lame. A stance that keeps you from dying and does a ki powered heal when you hit negative HP numbers would be a far better setup.

Second, I wish they would reduce the cooldown on Tomb of Jade. That one minute timer is just absurd for an attack with a save, a limited set of targets and a high ki cost.



Guess I'll make a lot of Subterrane runs to create some Raise Dead crystals for super emergencies for my Human characters. The Half Elves with Cleric skillz have it covered.

Meh. Double positive greensteel weapon. Or, UMD scrolls, they only have a 36 DC. If you have to raise a partymember more than once per shrine, you’re probably doing something wrong.

fredericko
10-10-2013, 07:13 AM
What happens when talking about class X is good or bad, or talking about anything being good or bad, is that "good" or "bad" are always comparison terms. So shintao needs to be put in context for a proper evaluation.

About shintao capstone / meditation of war. Monk capstones are to me absolutely out of the question. If you weigh what 2 levels of fighter can do for your monk - namely, +1/+2 to all your DCs (taking into account losing 2 wis from capstone and 2 monk levels), haste boost, extra AB, and 2 extra feats which might allow you to qualify for a free overwhelming critical, for instance, compared to what you are giving up - 0.5 step of unarmed die and a couple of bells and whistles that are non-essential - it is pretty clear pure monks are neither the best DPS, nor the best DC combination. 20 monk is IMHO a really, really tough sell at the moment.

Unarmed mastery sounds cool for sure. However, it turns out the other choices are pretty solid - if not flat out superior. You are comparing empty hand mastery to having a quarterstaff with the crit profile of an eSOS - and still be able to use quivering palm, and not having to worry about spreading stats to dex to qualify for TWF lines, or not having to worry about maxing out unarmed die - meaning even less tradeoffs for fighter / pally / rogue splashes. Not to mention half orcs, THF kings, do get a +3 to sunder DCs, that works with QP, on tier 1, for 3 AP plus 1 for opening the tree, plus all the PA / THF / AB goodies you may possibly want (and can afford).

Ninja spy isn't looking bad, either. 11 points in ninja spy are almost mandatory no matter what kind of monk you play. 25% etherealness is that good. Yes, 1d8 is 1 point of damage on average over 1d6 (crit profile aside- but then unarmed monks have the worst crit profile of all DDO), but to reach 10d8 would take a pure monk with really good wraps disciple of the fist, improved martial arts and vorpal strikes. 4 SA dice will give you 14 dmg per strike - and you've got unbalanced strike to make SA go off no matter what. If SF is your thing you've got No mercy - but SF is looking pretty weak if you compare it to QP these days. Then you've got the burst DPS of shadow double which is a nice clutch button.

Another gripe of mine with shintao is that unless you're going earth stance all the way you are going to spend a heck of a lot of enhancement points in garbage filler. Sure, earth stance is amazing and a great choice, but if you're a QP monk you will need all the ki you can get, plus all the DCs you can get -that fighter splash: tactics for DC, haste boost for ki, and/or fire or water stance for extra ki or extra DCs- above PRR and a better crit profile that is obviously less useful for an insta-killer build.

Long story short: shintao is pretty much the monk tank obvious choice, with huge PRR, bigger hp buffer, stronger hate generation, intimidate checks based on concentration, and meditation of war for even more PRR and hp. If tank is not your thing you might then IMHO want to start looking somewhere else.

fredericko
10-10-2013, 09:40 AM
Empty Hand Mastery: This is a permanent 25% damage increase for an unarmed fighter.


I agree with everything in your post save this 25% increase, because it's a 25% increase over the portion of damage per hit that is due to weapon dice.

Before I TR'ed my monk he was hitting for ~70 base damage (meaning the leftmost damage number on screen, aka the number that always gets multiplied on critical hits) on a regular left click attack (meaning no earth strikes / fists of iron / any other special attack). I had 9 damage dice; we're talking 9 points of damage per hit due to Empty hand mastery. 9 out of 70 is close to ~13%, and that's before you factor in spike studded from gloves or wraps, holy / shocking burst from ToD rings, sneak attack dice, elemental damage from your wraps / red augment slots, or extra damage dice from sense weakness / tunnel vision (if you twisted in / are using any of those ED abilities), just to name a few additional sources of extra non-base damage dice per hit which further make that 13% shrink considerably.

But that's not the only concern. The thing is Empty hand mastery shuts down all tier 5s from other trees, so as I said in my previous post you have to compare what you are giving up with what you are gaining. It turns out that on an exact EP prereqs / costs comparison, you are giving up Shadow double, and touch of death _if_ you want to/can build for it, though this is no longer a 1-on-1 comparison EP / prereqs wise.

thouston
10-24-2013, 10:50 AM
Credit for the build goes to my son who borrowed ideas from others and researched all the synergy.
... edited for brevity ...
Hope that helps.

what order did you take the feats?
how would you adjust this for a 36 point build?

also im just guessing here, max concentratio and balance?

thanks in advance

Scrag
10-24-2013, 02:03 PM
what order did you take the feats?
how would you adjust this for a 36 point build?

also im just guessing here, max concentratio and balance?

thanks in advance

Also, on that note, what is your plan now that U20 abolishes dexfordam w/ all handwraps? Brawling gloves and ivy wraps will no longer work with the ninjaspy core enhs come that release.

moonprophet
11-04-2013, 09:22 PM
I love my monk build. Primarily shintao. I think he is better after the enhancement changes. Same dps, more tanky.

http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/ghallanda/ellecktra/



Hi All,
I don't know if it's just me but does anyone else feel that the Shintao monk has been nerfed to unbelievable measures?

Before update 19 the Shintao monk was a paragon of goodness that was highly useful in a party and never needed a shrine. Now it seems that it is just a self sufficient class that needs to shrine every two minutes.

In addition there is no more passive ki generation which isn't really a problem but it's a pain not being able to use the monk moves that actually do work.

I am also experiencing difficulties understanding why or new self res capability has a 15 min timer on it AND a once per rest?

This until recently has been my favourite class to play and personally I'd gladly give up the touch of the dragon and the self res to be able to be useful in a party again?

Can someone please help me find the 'LOVE' of this class again. I really feel it is broken and invite other's insight.

Cheers