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karl_k0ch
08-19-2013, 03:09 AM
It's this time of the year again!

With the upcoming enhancements, Rogues will be able to use Dex as a Damage stat for Daggers and Kukris. I'm trying to find out if this is actually a viable option for my rogue.

If I am not mistaken, there are a few permanent buffs which favor Str over Dex, namely Abishai Set (where the other bonuses are largely uninteresting) and Nether Grasp (+2 Profane) but there are Titan's Grip Gloves (+6 Str) and Primal Scream (+5 Str). On the other hand, a Halfling Rogue can start with 20 Dex instead of 16 Str (+4), has access to racial enhancements (+1 or +2) as well as assassin and acrobat enhancements (+1 to +3). In total, it looks like the total Str bonus in this case is a +13; maybe +15 if you take a destiny with Str bonuses. On the other hand, the total Dex bonus is something between +6 and +9.

It looks like Dex is offering a similar stat number when it comes to sustainable numbers, but less damage when it comes to burst dps. I conclude that Dex is viable if you are interested in good sustainable dps and don't value burst dps that highly.

Thoughts?

Wanesa
08-19-2013, 04:57 AM
It's this time of the year again!

With the upcoming enhancements, Rogues will be able to use Dex as a Damage stat for Daggers and Kukris. I'm trying to find out if this is actually a viable option for my rogue.

Thoughts?

Running Halfling Bard with Weapon Finesse (no DEX to damage) and it is doable and fun. Focus to DEX helps you with attack, AC and reflex saves , all this is required by the rogue. I plan to be rogue in next life and going to focus on DEX only.

Soulfurnace
08-19-2013, 06:10 AM
Focus to DEX helps you with attack, AC and reflex saves , all this is required by the rogue.
Just to step in here.
1) You can hit high attack bonuses being str based (due to having more buff options), so that's hardly a valid point.
2) AC... Just no.
3) Reflex. Okay, I've got nothing to say here. Dex wins.

To OP:
From what I understand of the argument, it boils down to this: Str is still ahead, even on a halfling rogue, but only just. (from dps/attack perspective)
The limiting weapons is a PITA, but dex to dmg opens up options for dex builds, which is nice.

Assuming the current best weapon was a dagger, I'd go dex over str, even with less dmg/attack bonus. The reflex save bonus would be worth it to me. (more reflex never hurts)

Of course, I tend to make int based assassins if I go rogue - having the option to go int/dex based is great for me.

SSFWEl
08-19-2013, 06:33 AM
I started over 2.5 years ago as a dex rogue, then went full str and have advocated that for awhile.
However, I asked myself that exact same question with the EP.


I do use dual Agonys for most of my work, and add to that, that the assassin tree has increased crit range for daggers (so 16-20= 25% crits. It stacks with keen, checked on lam). But only Kukri i have is EMG.
However I also use a bunch of short swords and some rapiers (lot more named shorts than rapiers for some reason) so this would mean I would need to retake wep finesse. Something I don't really want to do.

And as mentioned above, we do lose half the benefit of primal scream (offset by the 16 max str to begin with as compared to races that start higher)

However, as far as I can tell, the name of the game will be defense and here the higher reflex should help. And true, its possible to get your str way higher than dex, but much of our offense is from crits, procs, SA, ED stuff etc. I wonder how much I will really be hurt by dropping say ~15 str (<-- don't nitpick here please, unless you really have the math, then please share) and putting it into dex.

Would love to hear more discussion on this now.

Wipey
08-19-2013, 07:32 AM
Isn't int + insight reflexes the way to go now ? Without assassinate you are just squishy barbarian, the most impressive rogues I've seen, shadow manipulation+ assassinate everything.
More skills, I guess enough dex for ISA ? Or you can't just get your assassinate high enough for new stuff ? 65+ possible, no ?
But what do I know :)

Soulfurnace
08-19-2013, 07:51 AM
Isn't int + insight reflexes the way to go now ? Without assassinate you are just squishy barbarian, the most impressive rogues I've seen, shadow manipulation+ assassinate everything.
More skills, I guess enough dex for ISA ? Or you can't just get your assassinate high enough for new stuff ? 65+ possible, no ?
But what do I know :)
Y'know, I know one person who uses that line all the time... If you're that one person, I will get my Vorpal X greataxe of Killing IV out. (I'm sure it exists!)

Aside from that, yeah, I agree: However, decent dps is still good to have for red named. (they do exist)

Hence why I like dex -> damage. Saves a feat, means I can take ISA as well.

*Note. Old enhancements had 70 max DC. Not sure about enhancement pass (in regards to enhancements), but we can get more int now through gear :)

[Source: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/350693-Master-Assassin-an-int-based-build]
On another note, my lack forum-fu skills are showing... how can I change the link? (To say "This" or something aside from [Giant bunch of stuff]?)
I'm fairly sure I should know it, and I would google it... but I don't know what I'm meant to be googling. D:

psykopeta
08-19-2013, 08:18 AM
It's this time of the year again!

With the upcoming enhancements, Rogues will be able to use Dex as a Damage stat for Daggers and Kukris. I'm trying to find out if this is actually a viable option for my rogue.

If I am not mistaken, there are a few permanent buffs which favor Str over Dex, namely Abishai Set (where the other bonuses are largely uninteresting) and Nether Grasp (+2 Profane) but there are Titan's Grip Gloves (+6 Str) and Primal Scream (+5 Str). On the other hand, a Halfling Rogue can start with 20 Dex instead of 16 Str (+4), has access to racial enhancements (+1 or +2) as well as assassin and acrobat enhancements (+1 to +3). In total, it looks like the total Str bonus in this case is a +13; maybe +15 if you take a destiny with Str bonuses. On the other hand, the total Dex bonus is something between +6 and +9.

It looks like Dex is offering a similar stat number when it comes to sustainable numbers, but less damage when it comes to burst dps. I conclude that Dex is viable if you are interested in good sustainable dps and don't value burst dps that highly.

Thoughts?

Dunno how have u calculated the mod in dex, but just tr'ed in a rogue halfling (well, right before the update XD) to do my 3rd rogue life(getting 3pl each, just waited at horcrobat for the enhancement pass so the assassin rogue was easier to roll, less gear dependant), and my numbers for total dex and int are:

DEX: 18 + 4 tome + 2 ship + 6 item + 2 halfling + 4 lvl up = 36, so +13

INT: 18 + 4 tome + 2 ship + 6 item + 4 cap + 4 enhancement= 38 so +14

keep in mind no ED active, and items are +6 lol (my dc on assassinate will be 55 w/o twisting INT, and going shadowdancer, more than enough for EH)

iirc my str w/o temporary buffs on live was not much higher than that dex (was horc btw), the trouble are tomprary buffs don't buff dex, only tenser and inspire excellence do

also, need dex for twf line and improved SA (that's why i didn't want to do the assassin before, splitting in 4 stats would be harder for me to solo, would have to choose between high dc assassinate or dps on boss, this way can have both)

PS: if u see i'm missing one lvl up it will go to con (qualify for epic toughness if u want, in my case is because my lvl 20 gear has 7+2 to con, so don't wanna have an odd score XD)

Qezuzu
08-19-2013, 08:22 AM
Once I download the patch and log in, I'll be completely dumping STR on my Helf Rogue.

Since you need 21 DEX anyway to qualify for Improved Sneak Attack, getting high STR will make your CON and INT points suffer. INT is, in my opinion, the single most important stat for a Rogue.

Yes, if you have all buffs and such, you can get marginally higher STR, but I just don't think it's worth it.

AZgreentea
08-21-2013, 12:08 PM
I'm a little confused on the DEX vs STR issue with assassins. Dosent the description of Dagger in the back say that you apply your Dex for damage to all weapons if you have Weapon finesse? So any finess weapons would be Dex for hit and damage, right?


Dagger in the Back (http://ddowiki.com/page/...): You may use Dex for damage with daggers and kukris. If you have weapon finesse, this applies to melee weapons with which you can use your dex modifier to hit.

Scrag
08-21-2013, 03:07 PM
I'm a little confused on the DEX vs STR issue with assassins. Dosent the description of Dagger in the back say that you apply your Dex for damage to all weapons if you have Weapon finesse? So any finess weapons would be Dex for hit and damage, right?

Yes.

Tenebris-Niatellim
08-21-2013, 08:25 PM
I rolled a 28 point Halfling rogue with 6 strength, 16 dex, 14 constitution, 18 int, 8 cha, 8 wis.

Seems like if you took TWF feat at the start, weapon finesse at 3 you could be using dex for your dmg, and maybe build a int rogue for the assassinate etc.

mna
08-21-2013, 10:04 PM
I rolled a 28 point Halfling rogue with 6 strength, 16 dex, 14 constitution, 18 int, 8 cha, 8 wis.

Seems like if you took TWF feat at the start, weapon finesse at 3 you could be using dex for your dmg, and maybe build a int rogue for the assassinate etc.

What I'd like to know is, did I read this thing right - if you deep-splash 6 ranger and take the Graceful Death enhancement, you could even skip Weapon Finesse altogether and still use dex with light weapons and scimitars? (Mostly the same list as Finesse weapons EXCEPT scimitars instead of rapiers?)

(Hey, if I want to take the dragonmark and metamagics for it, I'll have to drop something to make room...)

Tenebris-Niatellim
08-21-2013, 10:54 PM
What I'd like to know is, did I read this thing right - if you deep-splash 6 ranger and take the Graceful Death enhancement, you could even skip Weapon Finesse altogether and still use dex with light weapons and scimitars? (Mostly the same list as Finesse weapons EXCEPT scimitars instead of rapiers?)

(Hey, if I want to take the dragonmark and metamagics for it, I'll have to drop something to make room...)

lol I don't know if it works, that's why I'm just trying it out. I did learn from doing this that I like Halflings XD.

Tenebris-Niatellim
08-22-2013, 01:14 AM
Or just use kukris...or daggers a skip Weapon Finesse.

Also elven grace costs like 24 ap minmum to get. And that's only viable if your going elf. I don't think saving a feat is worth 24 ap.

mna
08-22-2013, 02:48 AM
Or just use kukris...or daggers a skip Weapon Finesse.

Also elven grace costs like 24 ap minmum to get. And that's only viable if your going elf. I don't think saving a feat is worth 24 ap.

Then again, Graceful Death is cheaper than that at a minimum of 11 ap, and also gets you other useful stuff - IF you have those 6 levels of ranger... well, then again, there would seem to be at least some synergy... not sure if it'll be workable but I've put some of my tentative planning here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423081-So-ideas-about-a-self-sufficiency-build-halfling-with-dragonmarks-post-U19).

unbongwah
08-22-2013, 12:21 PM
Also elven grace costs like 24 ap minmum to get. And that's only viable if your going elf. I don't think saving a feat is worth 24 ap.
It's not just about saving a feat; it's also about applying DEX to dmg with elf weapons (inc. bows, which will help DEX-based archers w/out Bow STR) as well as picking up Skill for +3% doublestrike/-shot/Dodge. Whether that's a cost-effective use for one's APs is another matter.

I suspect Grace will be more useful to unusual DEX-based flavor builds (inc. some of my Bardchers if I can figure out what to do with them); not so much rogs & rgrs, who already have cheaper options for adding DEX to melee dmg.

Stoner81
08-22-2013, 04:54 PM
[Source: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/350693-Master-Assassin-an-int-based-build]
On another note, my lack forum-fu skills are showing... how can I change the link? (To say "This" or something aside from [Giant bunch of stuff]?)
I'm fairly sure I should know it, and I would google it... but I don't know what I'm meant to be googling. D:


This (your link here)

Stoner81.

Soulfurnace
08-22-2013, 10:15 PM
This (your link here)

Stoner81.
Thanks (http://kenmcarthur.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/thank-you.jpg) (Forgive me for the lack of originality)

Stoner81
08-23-2013, 07:26 AM
Thanks (http://kenmcarthur.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/thank-you.jpg) (Forgive me for the lack of originality)

LOL no worries just happy to help out when I can :)

Anyway back to the topic in hand...

I have a Halfling Rouge who is currently level 13 and I have been having a similar discussion in my own mind about this (yes I am that weird :P), the more and more I think about this it makes more and more sense to do INT based with enough in DEX to get ISA. Put all level ups in to INT and Insightful Reflexes to boost saves which are pretty much mandatory now in high end content, I currently use peshes but that could be swapped for Weapon Finesse easy enough and still keep all other feats pretty much. Result would be high Assassinate DC and good damage with daggers and short swords (Agony and Celestia I'm thinking of).

Stoner81.

WilliamBraveheart
08-23-2013, 12:51 PM
It's this time of the year again!

With the upcoming enhancements, Rogues will be able to use Dex as a Damage stat for Daggers and Kukris. I'm trying to find out if this is actually a viable option for my rogue.

If I am not mistaken, there are a few permanent buffs which favor Str over Dex, namely Abishai Set (where the other bonuses are largely uninteresting) and Nether Grasp (+2 Profane) but there are Titan's Grip Gloves (+6 Str) and Primal Scream (+5 Str). On the other hand, a Halfling Rogue can start with 20 Dex instead of 16 Str (+4), has access to racial enhancements (+1 or +2) as well as assassin and acrobat enhancements (+1 to +3). In total, it looks like the total Str bonus in this case is a +13; maybe +15 if you take a destiny with Str bonuses. On the other hand, the total Dex bonus is something between +6 and +9.

It looks like Dex is offering a similar stat number when it comes to sustainable numbers, but less damage when it comes to burst dps. I conclude that Dex is viable if you are interested in good sustainable dps and don't value burst dps that highly.

Thoughts?

Take weapon finesse feat and you can get dex to hit and damage with all light weapons i.e rapiers,Short swords

karl_k0ch
08-23-2013, 01:42 PM
Take weapon finesse feat and you can get dex to hit and damage with all light weapons i.e rapiers,Short swords

I don't see the benefit of having a 15-20x2 Rapier when you can use a 15-20x3 Kukri or a 15-20x3 Dagger.

Of course, there is one 15-20x3 Rapier, but there's also a certain dagger which matches that rapier, dpswise.

DDOisFree
08-24-2013, 07:29 AM
2) AC... Just no.


I hit 120 AC on my pure dex splashed rogue, and theres nothing negative about being able to solo EH quests and rarely being hit.

It will be even better now with the new riposte weapons. It makes little sense to go as a str rogue unless you want to use larger weapons like Khopeshes, if you just stick with light weapons, then dex rogues are great now.

You can also get dex bonus to damage with shortswords with either elf, or monk splash, or quarterstaffs if you want to use those.


Take weapon finesse feat and you can get dex to hit and damage with all light weapons i.e rapiers,Short swords

I wouldnt, its a wasted feat now when you can use enhancements to get the same bonus with daggers, kukris, quarterstaffs or even shortswords, and then you can take an additional different feat.

Therigar
08-24-2013, 08:04 AM
Although I would argue in favor of STR over DEX it is still practical for pure class characters to go with the DEX option. This is because they are not gaining extensively from the synergies of multiclassing so the gap between STR and DEX is relatively small.

The only PrE for rogues wanting high DPS is still Assassin. The problem is that many of the ancillary abilities are found in the other trees. In particular, additional DEX enhancements can be obtained with careful planning -- something that might be useful to a DEX build in narrowing the gap with STR.

Be careful if using weapons other than kukri/dagger via the Weapon Finesse option. I seem to recall an issue with Celestia because it is light damage and not piercing/slashing. I cannot recall if this applies exclusively to monks with Ninja Spy or if it also applies to rogues with Assassin.

IMO Weapon Finesse is worth taking if you have access to Celestia or Balizarde.

I also think that it is a tough call whether to go full blown INT for assassination DCs or to go DEX/STR and to ignore the assassination aspects of the Assassin PrE. Full blown INT builds end up losing a measurable amount of DPS if they are not able to assassinate -- something that is common in group situations where players tend to blitz through the content. It appears that this INT option is really only for dedicated players who are willing to invest highly in the character -- more now than before the pass.

DDOisFree
08-24-2013, 12:19 PM
IMO Weapon Finesse is worth taking if you have access to Celestia or Balizarde.



Unless youre an elf or have monk splash.

Deathdefy
08-25-2013, 12:25 AM
I'm in the Dex camp. Fringe benefits like AC and Reflex save do it for me, but Str is obviously by no means gimp and opens up more weapon choices.



I also think that it is a tough call whether to go full blown INT for assassination DCs or to go DEX/STR and to ignore the assassination aspects of the Assassin PrE. Full blown INT builds end up losing a measurable amount of DPS if they are not able to assassinate -- something that is common in group situations where players tend to blitz through the content. It appears that this INT option is really only for dedicated players who are willing to invest highly in the character -- more now than before the pass.

Interestingly on going Int, the new EE Storm Horns and Wheloon quests have pretty insane Search and Disable Device DCs. From testing, I know that EE Breaking the Ranks' Spell wards have either a 89 or 90 DC (88 fail, 90 success). My suspicion is 90 since it's a nice round number. Not that you need to disarm them since they're around the edges, but still. Other new traps might be similarly crazy, I haven't played any other EEs.

Search also has insanely high requirements - I was on a max Int completionist with most things including a +20 search item and 3 Artificer PLs and I couldn't find all of the secret doors in EH Wheloon quests.

Having said that:
- I didn't have a +5 Enhanced Search item and am actually going to farm Power Play for Wolfinson's Monocular Enhancer which is the only item I know of with it.
- I didn't have a GS +Int skills item, which will now be my next GS item.
- I didn't take any skill boost enhancements because yuck.

Point of this is that without a big int focus I'm not convinced it's possible to be a trapper in the highest tiers of play. Though, admittedly those items that would boost my search skill another 11 points which might be enough, and 11 skill points is basically 22 int which means non-int based rogues would be fine.

If I'm only 1 or 2 search points off getting the secret doors, then anyone can be a trapper, it's just about gear. If I'm actually 5 or 10 points off, I think Int for trapping and secret doors should play into build decisions.

TL;DR Trapping is harder now, but I'm not sure exactly how hard. If it's really hard then Int based rogues have another thing going for them.

DDOisFree
08-25-2013, 06:29 AM
TL;DR Trapping is harder now, but I'm not sure exactly how hard. If it's really hard then Int based rogues have another thing going for them.

Its not that hard. My rogue has 14 base int, maxed search / disable ranks and gear, and no enhancements or ED bonuses to trapping skills (grandmaster full of more saves twists, enhancements pure melee), and he still disarms traps on EE with a 1+71.

Now I want to TR to a halfling though as I dont need pally dilly anymore due to being able to fit in 2 paladin levels instead.

Deathdefy
08-25-2013, 11:07 AM
Its not that hard. My rogue has 14 base int, maxed search / disable ranks and gear, and no enhancements or ED bonuses to trapping skills (grandmaster full of more saves twists, enhancements pure melee), and he still disarms traps on EE with a 1+71.

Now I want to TR to a halfling though as I dont need pally dilly anymore due to being able to fit in 2 paladin levels instead.

Do you mind if I ask which quests? (i.e. Do you mean Wheloon and Storm Horns or just GH and old content?)

It's totally possible that EE Breaking the Ranks does have anomalously difficult spell wards since they're optional.

Qezuzu
08-25-2013, 12:48 PM
I'm in the Dex camp. Fringe benefits like AC and Reflex save do it for me, but Str is obviously by no means gimp and opens up more weapon choices.

With all but one of the Improved Deception weapons being Kukris or daggers, there really is no other reason to use other weapons.

The only weapon I can really think of being useful to use would be Celestia.

mna
08-25-2013, 03:45 PM
With all but one of the Improved Deception weapons being Kukris or daggers, there really is no other reason to use other weapons.

You mean, you don't need a bludgeon DR breaker? ... Actually, at least two (sets?), one Everbright for oozes and another aligned adamantine ghostbane or some such? Especially given that exactly those enemies tend to be immune to sneak attack anyway...?


The only weapon I can really think of being useful to use would be Celestia.

...well, OK, but what do you use for DR breaking until you get that?

karl_k0ch
08-25-2013, 05:38 PM
You mean, you don't need a bludgeon DR breaker? ... Actually, at least two (sets?), one Everbright for oozes and another aligned adamantine ghostbane or some such? Especially given that exactly those enemies tend to be immune to sneak attack anyway...?



...well, OK, but what do you use for DR breaking until you get that?

There's the option to spend a few points in the acrobat tree (there are interesting abilities anyway) and get Dex to hit and to damage for quarterstaffs. There's your undead and ooze beater.

Deathdefy
08-25-2013, 08:47 PM
With all but one of the Improved Deception weapons being Kukris or daggers, there really is no other reason to use other weapons.

The only weapon I can really think of being useful to use would be Celestia.

I feel weird defending it since I don't think Str is a good decision either but I had in mind EE Axes of Adaxus.

Other stuff on the list would maybe be Mornh and Deathnip while levellings. I admit you have to Master's Touch scroll them or burn a feat (don't burn a feat, just use the scrolls), but if you want to be a strength rogue they're what I was thinking of.

Qezuzu
08-25-2013, 10:37 PM
You mean, you don't need a bludgeon DR breaker? ... Actually, at least two (sets?), one Everbright for oozes and another aligned adamantine ghostbane or some such? Especially given that exactly those enemies tend to be immune to sneak attack anyway...?



...well, OK, but what do you use for DR breaking until you get that?

I was talking about lvl20 and up. Improved Deception weps and Celestia are "endgame" weapons. At their level, there are no oozes, skeletons, ghosts, or anything with any meaningful DR or attributes that would warrant the use of anything other than Agony/eMG or Celestias. You also have the Shadowdancer capstone (if you use SD) or Assassin's Trick (intelligent opponents only so not sure how useful it is) to remove Sneak Attack immunity.

I exclusively shortman/solo so the Improved Deception is good for getting Sneak Attacks, but it's also able to spam bosses with deception which prevents them from attacking. It's good in groups, too.

Prior to lvl20 though, yeah, there aren't many good general-pupose weapons unless you have a GS weapon. You pretty much just need a Q-staff for skeletons (use the Acrobat tree), everbright for rusties and oozes (these can be daggers/kukris/staffs) and something that deals good damage. Maybe Radiance weapons, too.

DR breakers aren't as useful as they were. Not many people run devil raids anymore.

karl_k0ch
08-26-2013, 01:32 AM
At their level, there are no oozes, skeletons, ghosts, or anything with any meaningful DR or attributes that would warrant the use of anything other than Agony/eMG or Celestias.

Both the Abbot and the Truthful One have a bludgeon DR.

Ayseifn
08-27-2013, 08:35 AM
TL;DR Trapping is harder now, but I'm not sure exactly how hard. If it's really hard then Int based rogues have another thing going for them.
This has been my experience as well, EE Friends in Low Places had spell wards with ~88 disable and more search than I had. I have low int and am missing a lot of gear but trapping definitely got made more gear intensive, as for it being a trend going forward it's really hard to tell. Spellwards and bear traps don't punish you for critical failing to disable and so the DCs can be fairly high as all it means is it'll take longer to disable(if you're still on die of course) and you'll maybe take some damage if you have low skills. When we see some new trap boxes where crit failing and low search mean something we'll know where we stand, until then it's all speculation on how low you can go.

As for crafting GS skill items you could probably just do a few EE Through a Mirror Darklys, Skullduggery Kits seem to drop fairly often and have +6 dex and int skills on them, the other thing I'll probably do is go buy a stack of find traps scrolls again.

Qezuzu
08-27-2013, 12:41 PM
Both the Abbot and the Truthful One have a bludgeon DR.

Celestias bypass their DR.

At any rate, that is two enemies (one of them being in Ascension Chamber which is not ran often) where DEX-based is possibly at a disadvantage.

karl_k0ch
08-27-2013, 02:01 PM
Celestias bypass their DR.

At any rate, that is two enemies (one of them being in Ascension Chamber which is not ran often) where DEX-based is possibly at a disadvantage.

Yeah, I missed the DR-breaking potential of Celestia.

In any case, even if there's no Celestia at hand, a Dex-build isn't lost.

The the first two core abilities from Acrobat offer Dex to hit and Dex to damage with Quarterstaffs, making a triple positive QStaff a decent choice for fighting an undead boss every now and then.