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karl_k0ch
08-19-2013, 02:55 AM
So far, 16bard/2fighter/2rogue looked like a decent split. But with the enhancement change, this split loses one of the reasons to go 16 bard, namely extra inspire courage damage. Taking a deeper Fighter splash would allow more personal dps, an extra feat (which would be spent for weapon specialization) and more HP. Is anyone else tending towards 14/4/2?

hit_fido
08-19-2013, 06:37 AM
So far, 16bard/2fighter/2rogue looked like a decent split. But with the enhancement change, this split loses one of the reasons to go 16 bard, namely extra inspire courage damage. Taking a deeper Fighter splash would allow more personal dps, an extra feat (which would be spent for weapon specialization) and more HP. Is anyone else tending towards 14/4/2?

I am thinking any high charisma class should at least consider how much a 1 or 2 cleric splash can add. Granted that a warchanter may not have been looking at high charisma, but...

1 cleric options (costs include the 1 ap spent for tree unlock):
- 7 ap for 3+CHA modifier x 2 minutes of divine might; just 34 CHA ends up being +6 att/dam/dcs for 30 minutes
- 4 ap for +75% wand/scrolls, cheaper than buying from bard tree
- 4 ap for 100 more SP (I think...)
- 4 ap for +15 HP

2 cleric unlocks the efficient metamagics, none of which are available in the bard trees; maximize -9sp or empower healing -4 sp.

Is any of that worth trading the fighter levels for? You don't need toughness anymore, and weapon specialization is a pretty weak feat especially if you can get more damage out of having divine might running. Haste Boost could come from rogue trees.

Something like 15 bard/4 rogue/1 cleric or 14 bard/4 rogue/2 cleric? 4 rogue gets you uncanny dodge too. Don't forget you need at least 15 bard for Inspire Excellence.

Qaliya
08-19-2013, 06:43 AM
Even though I've always liked bards, I've been pushing off my bard life in the hopes that they'd get some love from the devs, being one of the more underpowered classes. Instead, they seem to make them worse each time there's a major update.

It's very hard to make sense of this.

Stoner81
08-19-2013, 06:47 AM
I was thinking of doing a similar level split with 16 Bard, 2 Rogue and the last 2 levels I'm not sure on yet. I was thinking Fighter for feats and Martial Proficiencies but I really don't know.

Stoner81.

mna
08-19-2013, 06:55 AM
Yeah, there's a bunch that can be done with splash classes still, but...

Does anyone know how the new Skaldic Rage works, is it like the rage spell that still allows casting, or the barbarian rage that does not allow casting, or something else?

I mean, I have one of the "revisited path" warchanter by tihocan, at level 14 now meaning 12brd/1ftr/1barb, and I was thinking... probably not going pure bard but should I make it 2 ftr 12 bard, or something else? (I did get rid of all my light armors already...)

At least swap WF for Cleave, I think. Possibly also Toughness for something else and going 2 ftr would be net +1 feat...

1 cleric would also make sense in that it'd make Heal a class skill. But then again 1 ranger would get that AND Bow Strength AND access to a lot of devotion from the DWS tree...

Hm, there was a Brutal Throw mentioned in some of the early alpha data for warchanter, that apparently wasn't there any more in the last beta? I do prefer to have the option of efficient ranged, although the low dex does hurt that part a bit.

taurean430
08-19-2013, 07:10 AM
Yeah, there's a bunch that can be done with splash classes still, but...

Does anyone know how the new Skaldic Rage works, is it like the rage spell that still allows casting, or the barbarian rage that does not allow casting, or something else?

I mean, I have one of the "revisited path" warchanter by tihocan, at level 14 now meaning 12brd/1ftr/1barb, and I was thinking... probably not going pure bard but should I make it 2 ftr 12 bard, or something else? (I did get rid of all my light armors already...)

At least swap WF for Cleave, I think. Possibly also Toughness for something else and going 2 ftr would be net +1 feat...

1 cleric would also make sense in that it'd make Heal a class skill. But then again 1 ranger would get that AND Bow Strength AND access to a lot of devotion from the DWS tree...

Hm, there was a Brutal Throw mentioned in some of the early alpha data for warchanter, that apparently wasn't there any more in the last beta? I do prefer to have the option of efficient ranged, although the low dex does hurt that part a bit.

Consider at least 15 bard for access to Inspire Heroics. This opens up Inspire Excellence at epic levels.

thegreatneil
08-19-2013, 07:28 AM
Does anyone know how the new Skaldic Rage works, is it like the rage spell that still allows casting, or the barbarian rage that does not allow casting, or something else?



Yes it does allow casting and is extended by song length. It does not stack with barb rage. No idea about with other types.
(such as primal scream or if it count for tunnel vision.)

mna
08-19-2013, 08:07 AM
Consider at least 15 bard for access to Inspire Heroics. This opens up Inspire Excellence at epic levels.

Yes. Eventually. Actually I'm trying to choose between 18/2, 18/1/1, 17/2/1 and 16/2/2... for when I get to l20. Not likely to keep the barbarian level.

But as of right now I'm going to decide between not using the LR+20 this week, or going 12/2 brd/ftr, or 12/1/1 brd/ftr/ranger.

...probably won't decide that today anyway.

taurean430
08-19-2013, 08:18 AM
Yes. Eventually. Actually I'm trying to choose between 18/2, 18/1/1, 17/2/1 and 16/2/2... for when I get to l20. Not likely to keep the barbarian level.

But as of right now I'm going to decide between not using the LR+20 this week, or going 12/2 brd/ftr, or 12/1/1 brd/ftr/ranger.

...probably won't decide that today anyway.

Oh I hear ya.

The 2 barbarian levels I've carried on my bard no longer have a purpose. I'm actually very pleased about that. I'm still fiddling around with different combinations. But, what really intrigues me at the moment is that my bard does need a ranged option. And manyshot is within reach without losing too much. We'll see how it goes...

nni
08-19-2013, 09:14 PM
For this ability to work, do you need to take Weapon Focus feat?

Neoxxz
08-20-2013, 04:35 AM
Oh I hear ya.

The 2 barbarian levels I've carried on my bard no longer have a purpose. I'm actually very pleased about that. I'm still fiddling around with different combinations. But, what really intrigues me at the moment is that my bard does need a ranged option. And manyshot is within reach without losing too much. We'll see how it goes...

In U18, I played a Furyshot Virtuoso. 16 bard/2 ranger/2 fighter was the only way to get all the requisite feats without sacrificing too many Bardic abilities. Great fun to play, a solid addition to any party and could solo pretty much any content with ease.

With the added feat flexibility afforded by U19, Manyshot is more accessible than ever and at least 1 level of ranger is even more desirable. In addition to significantly increasing your burst ranged dps (Bow Strength and Rapid shot) it's also the most efficient source of Devotion spellpower... just 6 AP in the DWS tree nets you a whopping 75 Devotion spellpower!

What's more, the Warchanter tree is incredibly synergistic with any form of burst dps (Skaldic Rage, Weapon Training, Howl of the North) which makes a Bardic Furyshotter more potent than ever before.

taurean430
08-20-2013, 05:36 AM
In U18, I played a Furyshot Virtuoso. 16 bard/2 ranger/2 fighter was the only way to get all the requisite feats without sacrificing too many Bardic abilities. Great fun to play, a solid addition to any party and could solo pretty much any content with ease.

With the added feat flexibility afforded by U19, Manyshot is more accessible than ever and at least 1 level of ranger is even more desirable. In addition to significantly increasing your burst ranged dps (Bow Strength and Rapid shot) it's also the most efficient source of Devotion spellpower... just 6 AP in the DWS tree nets you a whopping 75 Devotion spellpower!

What's more, the Warchanter tree is incredibly synergistic with any form of burst dps (Skaldic Rage, Weapon Training, Howl of the North) which makes a Bardic Furyshotter more potent than ever before.

I am loving Skaldic Rage. I want to buy it dinner.

Still at the drawing board though on my level split. 15 Bard is my baseline. Thinking seriously about 3 Ranger/2 Rogue. If I can make the shoe fit, I'm wearin em'!

Neoxxz
08-20-2013, 06:07 AM
I am loving Skaldic Rage. I want to buy it dinner.

Still at the drawing board though on my level split. 15 Bard is my baseline. Thinking seriously about 3 Ranger/2 Rogue. If I can make the shoe fit, I'm wearin em'!

Stack it with Primal Scream and Tensers and you'll want to marry it. :p

15 levels of bard gets you most of the goodies but I just can't pass up Otto's Irresistible Dance...

mezzorco
08-20-2013, 10:05 AM
I really don't know what split to choose...is it still more valuable going TWF than THF?

If THF is good enough I would go 16/4ftr or 15/4ftr/1clr / 16/2ftr/2clr for divine might.


Otherwise, if TWF is much stronger than THF, I really don't know.

16/4rng: TWF feat, DWS devotion, ram's might

16/2rng/2ftr: TWF feat, DWS devotion, two extra feats

14/6rng: TWF, ITWF, DWS devotion, ram's might, Manyshot, chance to take tempest tier 5 instead of warchanter tier 5 (but no inspire excellence and no otto irresistible)

16/3rog/1ftr: 2d6 sneak, evasion, extra feat, some skills (don't want to be a trapper)

Maybe 16/2rng/2ftr is best suited for my playstyle, but ram's might is just a step away :(
What do you suggest? :)

unbongwah
08-20-2013, 10:25 AM
For this ability to work, do you need to take Weapon Focus feat?
IIUC, you need WF feat for Weapon Training enh; and you need Weapon Training for HotN. Have not tested to confirm, however.

Thinking seriously about 3 Ranger/2 Rogue.
What does rgr 3 get you that's better than lvl 6 spells?

mna
08-20-2013, 10:34 AM
14/6rng: TWF, ITWF, DWS devotion, ram's might, Manyshot, chance to take tempest tier 5 instead of warchanter tier 5 (but no inspire excellence and no otto irresistible)


I have somewhere around here a plan that should be able to have Manyshot, GTWF, Evasion, and trap skills... oh, and 16 bard so both excellence and Otto's irresistible too. And of course DWS devotion and...

Haven't updated it for the new system yet, because I'm not sure what all I'll need... but, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418772-Thinking-about-rolling-a-quot-trapchanter-quot-any-advice

...I'll probably need to get more cha, at least, assuming stat prerequisites still count only base+tome+levelups. Counting other enhancements even in just the same tree would make it too easy ;-)

taurean430
08-20-2013, 10:42 AM
IIUC, you need WF feat for Weapon Training enh; and you need Weapon Training for HotN. Have not tested to confirm, however.

What does rgr 3 get you that's better than lvl 6 spells?

Bow Strength, Rapid Shot. Which means spending one feat slot to get Manyshot. I dropped caring about level 6 spells ages ago, which was why I ran my Warchanter as a 14 bard originally until MotU. Only then did I find that adding a Bard level would be good for the build. This gave me access to picking up Inspire Excellence as an Epic Feat.

For my build:

lose: Access to 2 level 6 Bard Spells.
Gain: Manyshot to select as a feat, strong ranged option, Bow Strength, Two Weapon Fighting (not that I'll use it), Rapid Shot, DieHard.

Of course two Rogue levels add evasion, a bit of sneak attack, and the ability to do traps. I'm still checking into whether this would work out for me. With our current endgame being what it is, I'm of the opinion that manyshot has much more value.

If evasion doesn't work out in my planning, I'll likely go 4 Ranger and add Ram's Might and Precise Shot to the list. Keeping 1 rogue level works quite well for the majority of traps in the game...

mna
08-20-2013, 12:22 PM
Bow Strength, Rapid Shot. Which means spending one feat slot to get Manyshot.

You get those by Ranger 2. The level 3 Ranger autogrant is Diehard.

Neoxxz
08-20-2013, 12:24 PM
IIUC, you need WF feat for Weapon Training enh; and you need Weapon Training for HotN. Have not tested to confirm, however.

You no longer need Weapon Focus to take the Weapon Training enhancement.

However, it's not quite clear what constitutes your 'trained weapon'.

mezzorco
08-20-2013, 12:29 PM
For my build:

lose: Access to 2 level 6 Bard Spells.
Gain: DieHard.


Fixed.

He was asking rng 3 over rng 2. You could do 16/2/2, losing only diehard for level 6 spells.

supott
08-20-2013, 01:19 PM
ive LR'd my druid into a pure bard. havent tested it yet but see some nice stuff with going high CHA.

Frozen Fury has a 6 sec cooldown, freeze enemy ability. Duration is longer than 6 seconds (tested on dummy). Haven't tested it out yet in actual quest, but seems nice, like a stunning fist.

I got stuck with draconic incarnation epic destiny so i thought my only exit was to roll a CHA bard. Was daunting it but after spending my enhancement points, actually pretty excited about it. Pure Bard doesn't feel gimp like it was before. You can have Spellsong Vigor, Sustaining song, Skalding Rage, Ironskin chant all at the same time!

My only dilemma is the lack of ranged spells and ranged DPS going pure human, but I'm going for it. Pure Bard.

I tried a 16bard/2fighter/2rogue and a 12bard/6ranger/2rogue and i enjoyed the 6ranger a lot more. I found the first lacking in the ranged department and the 6ranger had great synergy. I'm relying on my spells/charms to help me out in the ranged department this time around.

phalaeo
08-20-2013, 02:23 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I really like what they've given Bards since the pass.

unbongwah
08-20-2013, 03:33 PM
Bow Strength, Rapid Shot. Which means spending one feat slot to get Manyshot. I dropped caring about level 6 spells ages ago, which was why I ran my Warchanter as a 14 bard originally until MotU.
I meant, why is rgr 3 / rog 2 / bard 15 better than rgr 2 / rog 2 / bard 16 (lvl 6 spells); or for that matter rgr 2 / rog 3 / bard 15 (+1d6 base SA, maybe another +1d6 from T3 SA Training)? It can't be for Diehard, can it? Is there some T3 rgr abilities you want?

nni
08-20-2013, 05:07 PM
IIUC, you need WF feat for Weapon Training enh; and you need Weapon Training for HotN. Have not tested to confirm, however.

I could take Weapon Training enhancement, but it didn't do anything as far as increasing my multiplier. The only thing I could think of was that I would need to take WF for that weapon to be my "Trained Weapon".

eecsman
08-20-2013, 09:16 PM
Another way to go is a Horc Bard/Rogue using quarterstaffs. I TRed one of my bards to 16 bard / 3 rogue / 1 fighter (was 16b/2r/2f using khopeshs).

Feats: Toughness / Max / Emp Healing / Quicken / Cleave / Great Cleave / IC:Blunt / PA
Epic Feats: OC / Epic Toughness / Inspire Excellence

With all songs & buffs, Dance of Flowers twisted in using the Stout Oak Walking Stick (hopefully Sireth in the future), he looks good, and will be even better when I can get him into Legendary Dreadnought. And I actually went with the SS tree, only 6 AP in WC.

If it looks like he doesn't need the HP, I might swap the fighter level for 1 or 2 of cleric (Divine Might + Endless Turning twisted, plus maybe Toughness enh and/or Efficient Maximize), and drop the toughness feats.

taurean430
08-20-2013, 11:18 PM
I meant, why is rgr 3 / rog 2 / bard 15 better than rgr 2 / rog 2 / bard 16 (lvl 6 spells); or for that matter rgr 2 / rog 3 / bard 15 (+1d6 base SA, maybe another +1d6 from T3 SA Training)? It can't be for Diehard, can it? Is there some T3 rgr abilities you want?

Sorry, was afk at work. Back now.

In my experiences so far, Otto's isn't ideal for me to use in epic content. This is due to needing to invest in spell penetration. Any mob I would actually want to dance as opposed to killing outright has a fair amount of SR, meaning most of the time it won't land anyway. Hence, no reason to go there as SR isn't something I have or am willing to build for on a melee Bard.

15bard/ranger2/rogue3 is pretty interesting as well. For a staff build that looks pretty nice. My Bard uses an ESOS/Cleaver/AGA.

15bard/ranger3/rogue2 offers a better split in my musings so far. Slightly more hp (nominal). But more can be taken from the the Arcane Archer tree at 3 ranger. I forget the specifics, though I'll update if necessary when I get there. Haven't logged into the game just yet.

But really, losing what I'd consider to be more versatility for Otto's is a trap the moment you start noting SR numbers. Unless one uses it exclusively on low to no SR trash mobs. Faster to just kill them imo. I thought originally you were questioning taking ranger levels at all, hence my original response.

Neoxxz
08-21-2013, 02:23 AM
In my experiences so far, Otto's isn't ideal for me to use in epic content. This is due to needing to invest in spell penetration. Any mob I would actually want to dance as opposed to killing outright has a fair amount of SR, meaning most of the time it won't land anyway. Hence, no reason to go there as SR isn't something I have or am willing to build for on a melee Bard.

But really, losing what I'd consider to be more versatility for Otto's is a trap the moment you start noting SR numbers. Unless one uses it exclusively on low to no SR trash mobs. Faster to just kill them imo.

It's surprising how few mobs have meaningful SR. I don't build any spell pen on my melee bards, frequently run EE, yet rarely have a problem with resistance. But you have to consider the practical applications of OID. It CAN be resisted. It doesn't supplement damage outside of rendering a target immobile and helpless. It costs 35 mana, which on a melee bard (the majority of which will have <1000 total and need to conserve mana for haste/displacement and their expensive quickened/empowered heals) is not cheap.

It's also never going to be the single target CC of choice on a Fury Bard... Adrenaline covers that base and then some in addition to being an effectively unlimited resource.

Now we get to the real application of OID. It's not CC. It's recharging Adrenaline or building the Fury meter. While all else is Fascinated or Enthralled, it allows you to isolate one mob and kill them slowly and with zero risk. Black dragon armour, Grim Precision and Insult give you -45% enemy fortification. Throw in some seeker and exceptional seeker gear and (especially if you're TWF) you can regain Adrenaline with surprising rapidity and ease. I rarely gain less than 2 adrenaline on a single mob in this fashion. Hell, on occasion I've charged the entire Fury meter from scratch on just one mob!

Of course, this all assumes you run in Fury. Though on a TWF Bard with Manyshot I find no compelling reason not to.

taurean430
08-21-2013, 06:16 AM
It's surprising how few mobs have meaningful SR. I don't build any spell pen on my melee bards, frequently run EE, yet rarely have a problem with resistance. But you have to consider the practical applications of OID. It CAN be resisted. It doesn't supplement damage outside of rendering a target immobile and helpless. It costs 35 mana, which on a melee bard (the majority of which will have <1000 total and need to conserve mana for haste/displacement and their expensive quickened/empowered heals) is not cheap.

It's also never going to be the single target CC of choice on a Fury Bard... Adrenaline covers that base and then some in addition to being an effectively unlimited resource.

Now we get to the real application of OID. It's not CC. It's recharging Adrenaline or building the Fury meter. While all else is Fascinated or Enthralled, it allows you to isolate one mob and kill them slowly and with zero risk. Black dragon armour, Grim Precision and Insult give you -45% enemy fortification. Throw in some seeker and exceptional seeker gear and (especially if you're TWF) you can regain Adrenaline with surprising rapidity and ease. I rarely gain less than 2 adrenaline on a single mob in this fashion. Hell, on occasion I've charged the entire Fury meter from scratch on just one mob!

Of course, this all assumes you run in Fury. Though on a TWF Bard with Manyshot I find no compelling reason not to.

That's a nice perspective you are sharing there. Thanks for that :)

Elka is my only toon that has an ESOS so I'll likely let it go only if it were pried out of his cold, dead, hands. And you'd still have to deal with his ghost, lol.

I am also building for crit machine mechanics, and his current weapons work pretty well that way in play. I did finally finish the LR, now regearing. Or, at least I was until the server kicked meh. I did go 15bard/3ranger/2rogue. Couldn't find a way to fit in lockpicking. But everything else looks really good. I'm liking being able to pull elemental imbues/force imbues and unlimited arrows. Healing amp is down a bit. Had to swap out of Medium Dragonscale to Light due to evasion requirements. A definite work in progress, but without a dex item he's at 40 for a reflex save, so I'm thinking I can reach low to mid 50's.

I'll get back to work on it later today when the server is back up.

Neoxxz
08-21-2013, 08:02 AM
Elka is my only toon that has an ESOS so I'll likely let it go only if it were pried out of his cold, dead, hands. And you'd still have to deal with his ghost, lol.

Ah, missed that bit.

So you're stacking OC, HotN etc and maybe went HO.

If I had an ESOS on my bard I'd probably try the same thing! :)

giftie
08-21-2013, 09:21 AM
With all songs & buffs, Dance of Flowers twisted in using the Stout Oak Walking Stick (hopefully Sireth in the future), he looks good, and will be even better when I can get him into Legendary Dreadnought. And I actually went with the SS tree, only 6 AP in WC.

Wait, Dance of Flowers actually works without monk levels? I always assumed you had to have at least Monk 1 to be considered centered.

maddmatt70
08-21-2013, 12:25 PM
If you are not going to get inspire excellence I would go for 12 or 13 bard personally (have to look at spells). Go for 5 levels in a class so you can get tier 5 abilities in one of that class's enhancements and invest a lot into warchanter and some into spellsinger of course. If I had a heavy melee bard that is how I would go. I would also consider 15 bard 5 rogue or something like that although feats would be tight of course.

People love to melee or range so much with their bards, but quite frankly level 20 heal bot bard is incredible this update. I have done a lot of ees either playing a level 20 bard heal bot bard or running with one and one can keep a party up easily, has better cc then a divine with enthrall/ottos irresistable (some have good disco ball cc, etc.), and has better buffs then a divine. Coccon/exalted angel ability, heal spell, decent mass cures, vigor, more spell points this update, etc. Bard healing is just plain old awesome right now. Last night throughout several of the quests in Whelon first time doing em on ee had 5 melee/ranged and 1 bard and it was easy peasy.

Neoxxz
08-21-2013, 01:13 PM
Go for 5 levels in a class so you can get tier 5 abilities in one of that class's enhancements and invest a lot into warchanter and some into spellsinger of course. If I had a heavy melee bard that is how I would go. I would also consider 15 bard 5 rogue or something like that although feats would be tight of course.

Don't forget you can only get tier 5 abilities in a single prestige, so if you took those in a different class you couldn't get the really potent Warchanter stuff (spells in Medium armour, +2 hit/damage with all weapons, +1 crit multiplier on 19/20).


People love to melee or range so much with their bards, but quite frankly level 20 heal bot bard is incredible this update. I have done a lot of ees either playing a level 20 bard heal bot bard or running with one and one can keep a party up easily, has better cc then a divine with enthrall/ottos irresistable (some have good disco ball cc, etc.), and has better buffs then a divine. Coccon/exalted angel ability, heal spell, decent mass cures, vigor, more spell points this update, etc. Bard healing is just plain old awesome right now. Last night throughout several of the quests in Whelon first time doing em on ee had 5 melee/ranged and 1 bard and it was easy peasy.

Healing bards were always viable.

My first bard was a pure support Spellsinger, built for healing, and with the right setup could substitute a divine in most situations. Solo healed EE Tor, EE PoP (sans final fight), Elite Shroud, EH CiTW etc. Could also spec for spell damage running in Primal with Blue Dragon armour and twisting Energy Burst and Boulder Toss. The biggest deficiency was a single target nuke heal; maximized, empowered CCW just didn't cut the mustard. If I was still playing a support Bard, I'd be very excited about the addition of Heal to the spell roster, not to mention the easily achievable 40% heal spell crit (which effectively renders Renewal and Cocoon fire-and-forget full bar heals).

Overall, I think Bards have received a tremendous buff with the latest patch and are far more interesting, flexible, powerful and versatile than ever before. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot more of them! :)

eecsman
08-21-2013, 07:24 PM
Wait, Dance of Flowers actually works without monk levels? I always assumed you had to have at least Monk 1 to be considered centered.

Nope, you don't need monk levels, you just need to qualify as centered (no armor, no shield, monk weapons). I verified this on live and on Lamannia in the dojo before I TRed. And a ki bar looks really weird on a bard, when you're leveling up GMoF.

phalaeo
08-24-2013, 08:21 PM
Ooooooh, how did I miss that WC now allows access to Sprint Boost?!?!

Wheeeeee, fast bard!

Shinjiteru
08-25-2013, 05:42 AM
Did warchanter dps get really that much buffed?(especially when taking in account that most other melee toons dps got buffed too) Just asking because for me it seems they broke the warchanter. Most groups/players only liked warchanters because of the better +damage of inspire courage and that is something a spellsinger is as good as a warchanter now, unless you are pure bard warchanter and +1 damage isn't that exciting anymore today.
Yeah warchanters can also toss a heal scroll or cures when needed but that's nothing you need to be warchanter, every bard can do that.

So why would a group take a warchanter now even if already a spellsinger bard is in party? Am I the only one who thinks warchanters are broken when comparing them to what spellsingers can get now?
Why would a group accept a warchanter bard if a spellsinger is already present instead of taking another plain dps?
And if even a bard player has problems answering these question how are most other players looking at a warchanter bard now... :S
I know it's always nice to have an addition player who can toss a heal or help raising if needed, but in many cases having a real dps toon would help much more to prevent situations where you need these abilities. And yeah my warchanter bard preU19 was lacking much dps compared to my barb and monk and since barb and monk got buffed dps wise I doubt warchanter bard is getting much closer to them.

When they first announced the enhancement pass I was hoping to get a viable option to go pure bard as warchanter, and if I look at what the enhancement pass gave us... it seems I should even splash more levels than before, because going healing spellsinger is not an option for me.

Was thinking about 16bard/4fighter for the weapon group specialization line. My main 'problem' is that because of his equipment he has to stick with thf. Probably going to end up with TRing him into a PDK with next update, then I can go pure charisma with thf line and make use of frozen fury ability. Splitting 2ranger/rogue sounds interesting too, but with such a split I would think that twf would be better.

JasonJi72
08-25-2013, 06:49 AM
Otto's is great when it works, and it works quite often. I have taken less than 16 bard before, but will probably never do it again. As has been previously stated, you usually want at least level 15, but the real reason I always take 16 bard can be summed up in three words... Mass Cure Mod.

I kinda agree with Shinjiteru, but I am biased. All my Bards have been Virtuoso for the past couple years. That Crit multiplier does look tempting though...

Play what you want, and have fun doing it! :)