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View Full Version : Assassinate DC, Do you HAVE to be Single-classed to have it high enough to matter?



Failedlegend
08-18-2013, 12:45 PM
Pretty much the title I'm debating making a Halfling Thrower for fun with a TWF option for when that fails miserably :P so I'd like to have an effective Assassinate but could really use extra feats from fighter or ranger (and the called shot/strike ability from DWS is great for SAers as well as improved weapon finesse)

So yeah would 12ish lvls be enough?

Miow
08-18-2013, 12:56 PM
Pretty much the title I'm debating making a Halfling Thrower for fun with a TWF option for when that fails miserably :P so I'd like to have an effective Assassinate but could really use extra feats from fighter or ranger (and the called shot/strike ability from DWS is great for SAers as well as improved weapon finesse)So yeah would 12ish lvls be enough?With 12 levels in the higher end content, I say no every level you lose a dc....that's -8 and given the success curb drops dramatically the more you lose, tis not good imo.

Failedlegend
08-18-2013, 04:30 PM
With 12 levels in the higher end content, I say no every level you lose a dc....that's -8 and given the success curb drops dramatically the more you lose, tis not good imo.

Hmmm...figured so whats the most you can splash to have it still be effective.

Also is there a limit on what kind of weapons I can Assassinate with...I mean I know ranged weapons are bugged and dont work at the moment but could I use say a Q-Staff (Acrobat)

Qezuzu
08-18-2013, 10:00 PM
For top-level content, even 1 level of rogue (2 DC loss, 1 from capstone) is a lot.

For Epic Hard and easier difficulties, you could probably get away with as low as 12 rogue, but you'd have to have very high INT.


Also is there a limit on what kind of weapons I can Assassinate with...I mean I know ranged weapons are bugged and dont work at the moment but could I use say a Q-Staff (Acrobat)

All melee weapons work.

Ranged weapons are not bugged: they are simply not allowed to be used with Assassinate. By design.

Deathdefy
08-18-2013, 11:47 PM
For top-level content, even 1 level of rogue (2 DC loss, 1 from capstone) is a lot.

For Epic Hard and easier difficulties, you could probably get away with as low as 12 rogue, but you'd have to have very high INT.



All melee weapons work.

Ranged weapons are not bugged: they are simply not allowed to be used with Assassinate. By design.

Agree with all of that, and the other posts.

It is... 'odd' though, that the icon for assassinate is a guy with an arrow through his back. Gives me hope ranged assassinate is at least in the works.

Failedlegend
08-19-2013, 06:16 AM
For top-level content, even 1 level of rogue (2 DC loss, 1 from capstone) is a lot.

That kinda sucks I hate anything that limits creative builds



For Epic Hard and easier difficulties, you could probably get away with as low as 12 rogue, but you'd have to have very high INT.

Ah that gives me a little more leeway as we (its for a static duo) tend to stick to normal/hard and I plan on main lining Int on this build




All melee weapons work.

Cool, thanks :D




Ranged weapons are not bugged: they are simply not allowed to be used with Assassinate. By design.

Why? There's no reason a skilled assassin can't assassinate someone with a bow/bow/throwing knives/shurikens/etc. actually its the more intelligent option. It's a bug.

TreknaQudane
08-27-2013, 04:13 PM
Why? There's no reason a skilled assassin can't assassinate someone with a bow/bow/throwing knives/shurikens/etc. actually its the more intelligent option. It's a bug.

It's only a bug if it's against the intended design of the feature.

Laeelin
08-28-2013, 05:38 PM
Why? There's no reason a skilled assassin can't assassinate someone with a bow/bow/throwing knives/shurikens/etc. actually its the more intelligent option. It's a bug.

They specifically call the ability a "Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack". Reality has little to do with it. A great many of the rules don't make sense if you try to bring reality into it! :)

mna
08-28-2013, 06:21 PM
It's only a bug if it's against the intended design of the feature.

I suppose this does go with the issue of shifting the balance from ranged to melee anyway, because otherwise combat would devolve to archery, and that's just not likely to be interesting in a game like this.

Even when the game universe doesn't have firearms, ranged does tend to be clearly superior tactically.



... Where do I look for actual numbers on where the Assassinate DCs should be for a reasonable chance of success at what level? (it's fort save, 10+int mod+rogue level, right?)

Deathdefy
08-29-2013, 01:13 AM
I suppose this does go with the issue of shifting the balance from ranged to melee anyway, because otherwise combat would devolve to archery, and that's just not likely to be interesting in a game like this.

Even when the game universe doesn't have firearms, ranged does tend to be clearly superior tactically.



... Where do I look for actual numbers on where the Assassinate DCs should be for a reasonable chance of success at what level? (it's fort save, 10+int mod+rogue level, right?)

The number for a successful assassinate DC is actually identical to a pale master's Finger of Death DC or a FvS Implosion DC (depending on if the calc is taking into account the -2 fort save from FvS aura - if not, just factor it in).

I'm not super willing to estimate given the controversy over actual figures and success rates, but there are a number of threads on DC casters.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422360-So-DC-casting-is-still-fail-at-end-game is one for arcanes (there are definitely more thorough threads, but I remember this one).

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422593-Post-expansion-DC-divine-theory-crafting is another good one that's even currently active.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/350693-Master-Assassin-an-int-based-build also has some discussion, including a terrifyingly high theoretical maximum.

My 2c is that an assassinate of 70 is reliable-ish in EE A Break in the Ice against orcs and/or gnolls, but I didn't get a single failed save from 4 (x2 for two hits) attempts against giants.

In EE breaking the ranks, 70 also held up reasonably on everything that wasn't a blackguard, but 65 was very iffy, and since 10 seconds of attacking is (imo) more productive than 10 seconds of skulking for the DC boost, I'd say it's not super practical.

For EH, the numbers are much more friendly.

When you do your DC calc, make sure you add in the +5 for skulking about for 10 seconds in 'measure' too if you aren't working out mid combat assassinate DC, in which case obviously don't add the +5.


For Heroics, I'd say 30 is great till about vale, then 35 is great for vale, then 40 is great for IQ.

maddmatt70
08-29-2013, 10:13 AM
The number for a successful assassinate DC is actually identical to a pale master's Finger of Death DC or a FvS Implosion DC (depending on if the calc is taking into account the -2 fort save from FvS aura - if not, just factor it in).

I'm not super willing to estimate given the controversy over actual figures and success rates, but there are a number of threads on DC casters.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422360-So-DC-casting-is-still-fail-at-end-game is one for arcanes (there are definitely more thorough threads, but I remember this one).

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422593-Post-expansion-DC-divine-theory-crafting is another good one that's even currently active.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/350693-Master-Assassin-an-int-based-build also has some discussion, including a terrifyingly high theoretical maximum.

My 2c is that an assassinate of 70 is reliable-ish in EE A Break in the Ice against orcs and/or gnolls, but I didn't get a single failed save from 4 (x2 for two hits) attempts against giants.

In EE breaking the ranks, 70 also held up reasonably on everything that wasn't a blackguard, but 65 was very iffy, and since 10 seconds of attacking is (imo) more productive than 10 seconds of skulking for the DC boost, I'd say it's not super practical.

.

pff I disagree with your justification for your numbers. On my rogue right now I have a 56 assasinate dc while sneaking and I am getting melee in ee whelon at least 50% if not more % of the time and casters closer to every time. A mid 50s is definitely worthwhile for Whelon and in this game. My plan after better gear is to hit 60 dc. Now 55 dc in stormhorns is likely going to be less worthwhile, so it maybe 60 dc, but I still should be able to get casters, gnolls and some of the general mobs as well. A player does not need to assasinate 100% in order to justify the investment in assasinate. There is no need to assasinate something 100% anywhere.

I never use midnight greeting or gimp my gear or build vs. boss dps in order to assasinate. That is my thinking. I kill mobs relatively quickly even if I do not assasinate, so shrug.

Hutoth
08-29-2013, 10:27 AM
pff I disagree with your justification for your numbers. On my rogue right now I have a 56 assasinate dc while sneaking and I am getting melee in ee whelon at least 50% if not more % of the time and casters closer to every time. A mid 50s is definitely worthwhile for Whelon and in this game. My plan after better gear is to hit 60 dc. Now 55 dc in stormhorns is likely going to be less worthwhile, so it maybe 60 dc, but I still should be able to get casters, gnolls and some of the general mobs as well. A player does not need to assasinate 100% in order to justify the investment in assasinate. There is no need to assasinate something 100% anywhere.

I never use midnight greeting or gimp my gear or build vs. boss dps in order to assasinate. That is my thinking. I kill mobs relatively quickly even if I do not assasinate, so shrug.

This.

I running a non-int-based, melee with 16 rogue levels... assassinate still lands even in EE (though less often... ymmv).

Just be aware that since Xpac 2, you need to bluff prior to assassinate if the target mob is not currently agroed on anyone.

Bumbaragum
08-29-2013, 12:12 PM
All melee weapons work

Ranged weapons are not bugged: they are simply not allowed to be used with Assassinate. By design.

Unarmed, Handwraps(with or without monk attack animation), scrolls and wands fail to assassinate and trigger the coldown.

Qezuzu
08-29-2013, 01:31 PM
Unarmed, Handwraps(with or without monk attack animation), scrolls and wands fail to assassinate and trigger the coldown.

Those aren't melee weapons.

And you can Assassinate with unarmed. At least, I was able to when I was leveling GMoF (though it has a longer animation and doesn't Assassinate twice).

ReaperAlexEU
08-30-2013, 07:01 AM
Those aren't melee weapons.

And you can Assassinate with unarmed. At least, I was able to when I was leveling GMoF (though it has a longer animation and doesn't Assassinate twice).

do you know what does and doesn assassinate twice?

i was expecting TWF to get 2 chances, but my mechanic has a single dagger and also seems to get 2 attempts per button push. i'm fairly sure this isn't doublestrike as i really don't have much and i notice it the most at the start of combat when my killer stacks have faded.

i'm really enjoying it as i've managed to take out 2 mobs quite often, but i was expecting to have to LR to find room for at least one TWF feat to get 2 attempts.

so it's left me scratching my head wondering just what is going on. would 2 daggers give me 4 attempts? would a q-staff give an attempt for each glancing blow? is it a bug and before long i'll be down to 1 attempt with a single dagger? all this stabby stuff is new to my mechanic!

Failedlegend
08-30-2013, 10:38 AM
This.

I running a non-int-based, melee with 16 rogue levels... assassinate still lands even in EE (though less often... ymmv).

Just be aware that since Xpac 2, you need to bluff prior to assassinate if the target mob is not currently agroed on anyone.

So if a non-int based rogue16 can do it in EE logic dictates a int-based lvl 12 rogue should have no issue in EN

RedHost
08-30-2013, 10:56 AM
So if a non-int based rogue16 can do it in EE logic dictates a int-based lvl 12 rogue should have no issue in EN

If you believe that the poster isn't talking about Epic Elite Sentinals quests, and that 'less often' doesn't mean it only lands about 1/4 the time.

It is easy enough to calculate for yourself. 10 +Rogue levels +INT mod. +6 from twisting in Stealthy from Shadowdancer. Let's be generous and assume +2 from eMNG as well.

So we have 14ish base INT. Let's be generous again and say +5 Tome. +9 INT item, +3 insightful item, +1 exceptional item. So without any details given, let's assume a 32 INT on this theoretical 'non-INT-based melee'. Probably an overestimation, but let's just run with it.

That gives 10 +16 +11 +6 +2 = 45 Assassinate DC. So in other words, the only EE content that this will be landing in more than occasionally are the old Eberron Epics and the easier end of the MotU ones, and even then it is not terribly reliable. Epic Hard should do just fine for the very low level epic quests, but find more and more resists as you get into the higher level ones. I am not really familiar with Epic Normal monster's saves, but I would assume that they are lower than EH.

Failedlegend
08-30-2013, 12:05 PM
I could easily add it up too my questions is what are the target DCs for EN (we rarely do hard and never elite) and you also assumed non-int based...int based is 18 Int + all sta-ups so your short by about 4-5 DCs.

mna
09-03-2013, 02:21 AM
Hey... I thought of something...

Assassinate is a tactical attack with a DC, right? So therefore the Dwarf and Fighter + to tactical DCs should add to it? I mean, that's how it's written, right?

I was silly enough to make a dwarf rogue the other month on Wayfinder, anyway...

So, if I make it a 18/2 rogue/fighter I can eventually take +3 DC from Kensai ML2, and another +3 DC from Dwarf... should offset the loss of capstone nicely?

(And it being Wayfinder, the selection in the AH is often quite limited, the proficiencies could prove useful as well. That'd leave just the decision on D-axes vs picks and hammers...)

karl_k0ch
09-03-2013, 02:40 AM
Assassinate is no tactical attack, unfortunately, and can only be improved by Epic Midnight Greetings, the Measure the Foe ability and Shadowdancer's Stealthy. (Apart from Rogue levels and Int, ofc.)

From my experiences of my Str-based rogue, I think that one can work with an Assassinate DC of 50, if you know which mobs have a save low enough to matter. That's the case for most casters in MotU EH.

The main question with assassinate is not 'Can I get my DC high enough?', but rather 'What are the situations where my DC works?'

PrimalConcreteSledge
09-03-2013, 07:50 AM
I could easily add it up too my questions is what are the target DCs for EN (we rarely do hard and never elite) and you also assumed non-int based...int based is 18 Int + all sta-ups so your short by about 4-5 DCs.

You should have no problem with EN DC's. You will probably do fine in most EH too. Good assassins know their foes, you don't rly need to be able to assassinate every mob, you can always focus your attacks on low fort mobs.

Failedlegend
09-04-2013, 03:24 PM
You should have no problem with EN DC's. You will probably do fine in most EH too. Good assassins know their foes, you don't rly need to be able to assassinate every mob, you can always focus your attacks on low fort mobs.

Awesome :D

Arkantios
09-10-2013, 02:56 PM
I currently have a lvl 24 Human rogue, 6th life. at lvl 28 with decent top lvl items i'm easily going to hit 36 str/con and 42 int unbuffed. Dex should sit at 30. Not that hard to get decent gear, just need to have the time to do so.