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Cetus
08-16-2013, 07:02 PM
Cetus: Completionist Human 12 Fighter/6 Monk/2 Paladin

Note: This build is designed for advanced players who desire effectiveness in epic elite content. It is also centered around +5 tomes for the purposes of meeting stat requirements.


Class Progression: First, Second, and Sixth monk levels are the only important ones, since they receive feats at those levels.

Starting Stats: Strength: 18, Dexterity: 12, Constitution: 14, Intelligence: 8, Wisdom: 8, Charisma: 16

Feats

12 Fighter = 7 Feats. Human = 8 feats. 6 Monk = 3 Feats. Epic feats = 3 Feats. 8 + 7 + 3 + 3 = 21 Feats.

Add 2 Destiny feats + Paladin Deity + Monk light/dark path = 25 total feat decisions.

Ranged:

1. Improved Critical: Ranged
2. Weapon Focus: Ranged
3. Bow Strength
4. Manyshot (much later when +5 Dex tome kicks in)
5. Point Blank Shot
6. Rapid Shot
7. Zen Archery (should be taken as level 6 monk class feat when +5 Wisdom kicks in at level 19 for the 13 wisdom requirement)

Melee:

8. Power Attack (Should be taken as Level 1 or 2 Monk class feat)
9. Two Handed Fighting (Should be taken as Level 1 or 2 Monk Class feat)
10. Improved Two Handed Fighting
11. Greater Two handed fighting
12. Weapon focus: Slashing
13. Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
14. Weapon Specialization: Slashing
15. Improved Critical: Slashing
16. Cleave
17. Great Cleave
18. Overwhelming Critical
19. Stunning Blow

Other:

20. Completionist
21. Master of Forms (Adept is granted at level 6 monk, so this will occupy an epic feat slot)
22. Paladin: Follower of the Silver Flame
23. Monk: Light Path
24. Level 26: Perfect Two handed fighting
25. Level 28: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting - 5% doublestrike for main hand weapon

Skills: All Levelup skills into UMD, Balance, Concentration, leftover points into whatever you want

Twists:

Bane Of Undeath
Dance of Flowers
Brace for Impact

Enhancements:

Kensei:

-All Cores for Power Surge
-Extra Action boost 3
-Haste Boost 3
-One with the blade (this means all weapon specializations, alacrity, tier 1 meditation, deadly whatever (this ability is not used in this build), and shattering whatever (this ability is also not used in this build)).
-Tactics 3
-Strength 1

35 AP

Ninja Spy:

-All cores toward Shadow Veil
-Three tiers of Sneak Attack Training
-Acrobatic 2
-Agility 3
-Fists of Iron
-Ninja Poison

18 AP

Human:

-Damage boost core
-Strength Stat core
-Action Surge: Strength +3
-Action Surge Charisma +3
-Action Surge Constitution +3
-Improved Recovery tier 1, Improved Recovery tier 3, and Improved Recovery tier 4

18 AP

Knight of the Chalice

-First Core
-Extra turning 3
-Extra smite 1 (dump point)
-Divine Might 2

9 AP

Gear:

Note: This setup is subject to change, feel free to critique it if a better alternative emerges. I haven't calibrated the stats yet, so its a work in progress. Below is the setup that this build is running with/will be running with for the most part.

Necklace: EE Stolen Necklace w/ Insightful +2 Charisma Slotted, Charisma +10
Helmet:: EE Black Dragon Helmet w/ +3 Insightful Constitution Yellow Slot: Globe of True Imperial Blood Green Slot: Good Luck +2
Goggles: Deadly X of Resistance +10
Armor: Flawless Black Dragonscale robe: Slotted PRR +14
Bracer: Skirmisher's Bracers: Dexterity +9 and Doublestrike +8%
Ring 1: EE Consuming Darkness: Heavy Fortification, Combat Mastery +5, Seeker +12
Ring 2: Seal of Dun'Robar: Stunning +10
Boots: EE Goatskin Boots w/ Constitution +8, Yellow Slot: +2 insightful Dexterity, Green Slot: Wisdom +7
Gloves: EE Backstabber's Gloves: Sneak Attack +5, Exceptional Sneak attack +3, Improved Deception, Bluff +20, Yellow Slot: Vitality +20
Belt: Ogre Power +10 Belt of False life 45
Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Wolf: Exceptional Seeker +5, Attack bonus +4
Trinket: Litany of the Dead

Weapon: Epic Sword of Shadows: Red Slot: ML24 Acid Augment, Colorless: Insightful +2 Wisdom

Still Looking to get:

Deadly XI of Resistance 10 Goggles
Ogre Power 11 of False Life 50 Belt
ML 28 Acid Augment
PRR 16 Augment

Few metagame tricks:

1. Upon zoning into quest, wear Verik's necklace instead of EE Stolen necklace, Replace Adamantine cloak of the wolf with Charisma 10 cloak with slot, place +2 Insightful 2 Cha in slot.

Once 2 boosts are used, switch for Cloak of the wolf + Stolen Necklace.

2. When Manyshotting, replace Litany with a prowess trinket for Artifact bonus to damage

3. Before shrining, use power surge. The extra added charisma from the action surge enhancement (human) generates 2 extra divine mights after shrining is complete.

4. Against assassins, it is useful to pick up a Fortification 125% of Seeker +10 Ring. Substitute that in for consuming darkness, wear Adamantine Cloak of the Bear for Combat Mastery +6 in cloak slot.

This means: Lose 7 Seeker, Gain 25% Fortification and 1 Tactics DC. Worthwhile defensive move when many assassins are around.



End Stats fully buffed with yugo pots/rage/Fire finisher
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/ScreenShot00100_zpsc761e82c.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/ScreenShot00100_zpsc761e82c.jpg.html)

Click Thumbnail, and then the lower right magnifying glass twice for much higher resolution image:
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/th_ScreenShot00100_zpsc761e82c.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/ScreenShot00100_zpsc761e82c.jpg.html)

140% fort (165% with swap) against assassins
18% Doublestrike
71 Reflex
76 Fortitude
58 Will
1058 Hitpoints (without greensteel)
26 PRR
86 Strength

Stunning Blow DC:

38 Modifier + Stunning +10 + Combat Mastery +5 + LD +6 + 10 Base + 3 Past lives + 3 Enhancement = 75 in full DPS mode

Adamantine Cloak of Bear = 76

Someone helps with Primal scream = 77

Once Strength +11 Belt is acquired, pick up Kensei Strength 2 = 78

Achievements:

EE What Goes Up Flawless Solo:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/ScreenShot00107_zps9530d26e.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/ScreenShot00107_zps9530d26e.jpg.html)

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/ScreenShot00108_zpsb0f793ed.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/ScreenShot00108_zpsb0f793ed.jpg.html)

Videos

Was farming nether grasps earlier today, decided to record one of em just for the hell of it. Just a throw away video of me zerging an EE end of the road completion, good comparison for the one I did several months ago when I was pure.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXV1kcfZpu0

End fight of EE What Goes Up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksnVhN822rg

Charononus
08-16-2013, 07:07 PM
Just a question on your thinking, monk provides some very nice additions with earth stance and evasion, other than dps does the barb path offer anything for survival? I haven't looked at the barb tree's closely and you seem to know what you're talking about with fighters so I'm curious.

Cetus
08-17-2013, 12:12 AM
Just a question on your thinking, monk provides some very nice additions with earth stance and evasion, other than dps does the barb path offer anything for survival? I haven't looked at the barb tree's closely and you seem to know what you're talking about with fighters so I'm curious.

Got carried away on lamannia, I'll update this thread tomorrow.

For survivability, all barb would give is improved uncanny dodge. Monk is undoubtedly much more survivable however.

the reason for the barb split is for 3 reasons. 1) +3 Action boosts cheap (only 1 AP per) 2) Sprint boost 3) Supreme cleave.

Supreme cleave keeps momentum swings going for much longer - its pretty much always available when I played with it, and blitz charges in like half the time.

So, sprint boost + super fast blitz charge = Lots of fun

TheLegendOfAra
08-17-2013, 12:21 AM
It's kind of sad you won't be a pure Fighter any longer.

EDIT**
Also, I'm completely clueless about the enhancements right now, could you explain the cleric levels?
Cause I'm just drawing a giant *** trying to figure that out. Lol

Aviya
08-17-2013, 12:33 AM
It's kind of sad you won't be a pure Fighter any longer.

EDIT**
Also, I'm completely clueless about the enhancements right now, could you explain the cleric levels?
Cause I'm just drawing a giant *** trying to figure that out. Lol
Divine Might

viktorserak
08-17-2013, 04:11 AM
I do understand its offtopic, but may I ask for advice, since Cetus has a good reputation for Ftrs?

I am trying to put together a good TWF bastard sword dualwielding Ftr right now, possibly with evasion.
I will use Nightmares, Fallen Moons, so number of offhand procs and fast attack rate is prolly my best choice.

1. How many Ftr levels are really needed? I kinda get lost, I admit.
2. Prolly go with monk for the stance - I see everyone talking about earth stance, is there particular reason? I personally thought about air stance for faster att and doublestrike. Btw, cant find it yet - stane seems not to be improved via enchantement anymore (adept - grandmaster), where do I get them?

ChaosEmperorDragon
08-17-2013, 04:17 AM
Not going pure fighter!? Sigh, I can't blame you. It's a shame what has become of us. Good luck with the new build.

Wizza
08-17-2013, 04:19 AM
Cetussssssss multiclassing: the end of an era. Tell me when you update this. I'm leveling my fighter!

Emerge2012
08-17-2013, 05:49 PM
12/6/2 will definitely be the way to go. Monk for ac/dodge/stance. fighter for Kensei, Cleric for wand whipping and Emp Heal for cocoon. All with a million cleaves and Dance of Flowers using a centered weapon.

TheLegendOfAra
08-18-2013, 01:14 AM
Cetussssssss multiclassing: the end of an era. Tell me when you update this. I'm leveling my fighter!

Heh Right? It just feels wrong.

Also, the amount of doom I feel when I see you're leveling anything other than your gimp sorc. *shivers*

cdr
08-18-2013, 03:01 PM
Really interested to see this build. Wondering about the cleric over druid.

hit_fido
08-18-2013, 04:03 PM
Really interested to see this build. Wondering about the cleric over druid.

1 level of cleric seems really good for any build with sufficiently high charisma:

- divine might with the turn undead feat to enable its use (7 ap)
- +75% wand/scroll mastery (4 ap)

Emerge2012
08-18-2013, 08:21 PM
1 level of cleric seems really good for any build with sufficiently high charisma:

- divine might with the turn undead feat to enable its use (7 ap)
- +75% wand/scroll mastery (4 ap)

Vader build.

Cleric is only for wand/scroll mastery. Divine Might takes up too many ap for too little gain.

Cetus
08-19-2013, 12:42 AM
Vader build.

Cleric is only for wand/scroll mastery. Divine Might takes up too many ap for too little gain.

46 Charisma on my projected build, 48 with a store pot, 50 with alchemical (I have like 100+ of these pots).

So, a 46 sustainable cha = +18 strength

A 50 = +20.

Also, its tier 1. Less AP than on pally where you have to waste 4 AP to get to tier 2 just to pick it up.

+75% scroll mastery on human with healing amp 530-560 a heal scroll depending on how many tiers. Max with 1 point in 5% healing amp core in monk line = 582 per heal scroll with three pally past lives.

Very good gain.

Emerge2012
08-19-2013, 01:27 AM
46 Charisma on my projected build, 48 with a store pot, 50 with alchemical (I have like 100+ of these pots).

So, a 46 sustainable cha = +18 strength

A 50 = +20.

Also, its tier 1. Less AP than on pally where you have to waste 4 AP to get to tier 2 just to pick it up.

+75% scroll mastery on human with healing amp 530-560 a heal scroll depending on how many tiers. Max with 1 point in 5% healing amp core in monk line = 582 per heal scroll with three pally past lives.

Very good gain.

46 sustainable means your other stats are badly hurting. An extra 18 str would be beautiful if not for being deficient to begin with.

Divine Might now is like buy1get1's at the grocery store. Looks great at first glance until you realize the regular price is twice what you normally pay anyways. I don't see it being worth it at all.

Charononus
08-19-2013, 03:19 AM
46 sustainable means your other stats are badly hurting. An extra 18 str would be beautiful if not for being deficient to begin with.

Divine Might now is like buy1get1's at the grocery store. Looks great at first glance until you realize the regular price is twice what you normally pay anyways. I don't see it being worth it at all.

14 base
5 tome
2 completionist
2 ship
11 item
1 exceptional
3 insightful
2 yugo
=
40 cha

I'm sure I'm missing things that could be grabbed too so i don't see 46 as out of the question.

hit_fido
08-19-2013, 05:28 AM
Divine Might now is like buy1get1's at the grocery store. Looks great at first glance until you realize the regular price is twice what you normally pay anyways. I don't see it being worth it at all.

Not worth it? At 46 CHA he'd be getting virtually permanent +18 STR, equates to +9 att/dam and +9 tactics dc. Can't think of many STR based builds that wouldn't jump at the chance to trade 7 AP for +9 att/dam/dc. And actually with that high a number of turns to fuel it he doesn't even need to spend all 7, maybe just 5 for the 60 second version...

Emerge2012
08-19-2013, 09:04 AM
14 base
5 tome
2 completionist
2 ship
11 item
1 exceptional
3 insightful
2 yugo
=
40 cha

I'm sure I'm missing things that could be grabbed too so i don't see 46 as out of the question.

Fitting in 1 exceptional, 3 insightful, and 11 enhancement charisma makes for less than desirable equipment layouts. I'm pretty sure the str gained from DM is insightful also so that item can be done away with, which helps a little. And on the 12/6/2 build completionist is a feat that doesn't really fit unless you're heavily gimping defense and dps (no dodge feats/whirlwind) or general dps feats that are considerably better anyways. Not to mention starting with 14 base charisma.

I think you'll find Divine Might to be more flavor rather than effective.

I'll be TR'ing into a 12fighter/6monk/2cleric Vader build. Sans Divine Might of course. Getting max dodge%, Master of Forms for stances, Whirlwind for a 4th massive AOE, plus the full cleave/2HF line is considerably better. Momentum Swing and Adrenalin makes stunning blow pretty useless.

Cetus
08-19-2013, 02:04 PM
Fitting in 1 exceptional, 3 insightful, and 11 enhancement charisma makes for less than desirable equipment layouts. I'm pretty sure the str gained from DM is insightful also so that item can be done away with, which helps a little. And on the 12/6/2 build completionist is a feat that doesn't really fit unless you're heavily gimping defense and dps (no dodge feats/whirlwind) or general dps feats that are considerably better anyways. Not to mention starting with 14 base charisma.

I think you'll find Divine Might to be more flavor rather than effective.

I'll be TR'ing into a 12fighter/6monk/2cleric Vader build. Sans Divine Might of course. Getting max dodge%, Master of Forms for stances, Whirlwind for a 4th massive AOE, plus the full cleave/2HF line is considerably better. Momentum Swing and Adrenalin makes stunning blow pretty useless.

Strongly disagree with this entire post. Some of it is inconsistent too (eg., momentum swing making stunning blow useless, huh?)

Also, how's 1 exc charisma a problem? Globe covers that.

Emerge2012
08-19-2013, 09:26 PM
Strongly disagree with this entire post. Some of it is inconsistent too (eg., momentum swing making stunning blow useless, huh?)

Also, how's 1 exc charisma a problem? Globe covers that.

I suppose I should have said 'Momentum Swing (or any aoe) ON Adrenalin' but figured it was obvious. Also Globe covers only 1 of the charisma boosters.

I think in the end however a Divine Might build would be fun and effective. I mean, seems to me the enhancement pass in general was to make flavor builds work better. Hopefully it does.

Belgarath22
08-20-2013, 11:58 PM
Hello I am trying to do a similar build for my next life. I think that your build will be very fun to play, I am trying to test it in the iconics, with no luck yet :(.
good luck

wtorchia
08-21-2013, 01:25 PM
I have a 17 cleric/ 2 pal / 1 fighter 2nd life HO right now that I am trying to decide what to do with. I keep looking at 8 fighter/2 monk and thinking it will be insane with my cleaver. I like the looks of your build, but what about keeping a little more cleric in it? Maybe go 8 fighter/ 3 monk / 9 cleric. You would gain a tone in self healing and buffing.

Drwaz99
08-21-2013, 01:59 PM
Cetuss! Post your build nub! DO EET!

I'm thinking of resurrecting a melee guy I haven't played in a while and I'd love to take some cues from ya.

cdr
08-21-2013, 08:18 PM
Here's Carpone's take on a U19 fighter: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422651-U19-Kensei-Centered-Cleaver

Sokól
08-22-2013, 09:13 AM
I am wondering if the build could not also work with 2 levels of paladin then you get the bonus for saves also...

maddong
08-22-2013, 01:41 PM
Wow. I didn't even think of mixing barbarian and cleric for max strength. That is genius!

That should be the highest strength tactics possible, right?

I say go barb. Everyone else will be playing a monk. What stunning blow dc are you getting combining your 46 charisma with rage?

Cetus
08-22-2013, 03:55 PM
Cetuss! Post your build nub! DO EET!

I'm thinking of resurrecting a melee guy I haven't played in a while and I'd love to take some cues from ya.

Being the idiot I am...I screwed up my alignment using the +20 LR to get the monk levels in, so this narrows down the OP - I decided to go 12 fighter 6 monk 2 cleric as it stands right now.

So, I ended up doing 18 fighter 2 cleric in the meantime, and then LR in the 6 monk using 2 +3 hearts. I'll edit the OP with detail and videos when I can actually play the build.

Divine might + the 75% scroll mastery is very powerful.

Cetus
08-22-2013, 03:58 PM
I am wondering if the build could not also work with 2 levels of paladin then you get the bonus for saves also...

It works very well, it is just my preference to go 2 cleric because they get divine might at tier 1 (so I don't have to waste 4 AP's in pally tree just to open up tier 2 enhancements, 4 AP is a big deal) and the +75% scroll mastery results in ~550 a heal - super effective. LOH is nice, but they're limited.

Furthermore, the cleric divine might has unlimited charges and only costs spell points, whereas the pally one has ~20 or so charges with the charisma I can reach. It allows me to take tier 2 divine might instead of tier 3, since i can refresh it whenever I want. Another 2 AP saved.

The pally saves are amazing, but - I'm a DPS build - and the extra 6 AP's allow me to invest as much as I can into DPS enhancements.

Sokól
08-24-2013, 02:53 PM
It works very well, it is just my preference to go 2 cleric because they get divine might at tier 1 (so I don't have to waste 4 AP's in pally tree just to open up tier 2 enhancements, 4 AP is a big deal) and the +75% scroll mastery results in ~550 a heal - super effective. LOH is nice, but they're limited.

Furthermore, the cleric divine might has unlimited charges and only costs spell points, whereas the pally one has ~20 or so charges with the charisma I can reach. It allows me to take tier 2 divine might instead of tier 3, since i can refresh it whenever I want. Another 2 AP saved.

The pally saves are amazing, but - I'm a DPS build - and the extra 6 AP's allow me to invest as much as I can into DPS enhancements.

I see you point 2 cleric splash complements your playstyle :)

working on a TWF version of similar build for a friend, going for fighter 12 monk 6 paladin 2 centered khopesh wielder he has a ranger so no pew pew, are there any non obvious kensai enhancements you would recommend for TWF?

Cetus
08-25-2013, 11:30 AM
I see you point 2 cleric splash complements your playstyle :)

working on a TWF version of similar build for a friend, going for fighter 12 monk 6 paladin 2 centered khopesh wielder he has a ranger so no pew pew, are there any non obvious kensai enhancements you would recommend for TWF?

Theyre all pretty much the same for either fighting style, I tried weapon meditation - but I'm a zerger, I never stop to sit down and meditate so that ability is useless to me. Just hit the bare minimum to get one with the blade, max out your boosts and go as far into tactics as you can. Rest of your points are better spent in racial/other class trees.

I'm still tinkering with the 2 cleric, I might return to pally because it seems that the extra save bonus would be nice. I got soundburst stunned by some priests in the middle of like 15 mobs blitzing in EE what goes up and was not a happy camper =D

maddmatt70
08-26-2013, 12:29 AM
Ever thought about 12 barbarian 7 rogue 1 cleric or 12 fighter 4 barbarian 4 rogue or 12 fighter 4 rogue 4 paladin. The 4th level rogue thief acrobat No Mercy 30% damage to helpless is looking great on trash especially since it stacks with sense weakness. Bully in the ravager is another 15% damage, but FB is better for THF. Just think that defense is getting easier to build for with +24 physical resistance items and +10 dodge items. With a high stunning blow build you can kill things quick..

Cetus
08-26-2013, 01:42 AM
Ever thought about 12 barbarian 7 rogue 1 cleric or 12 fighter 4 barbarian 4 rogue or 12 fighter 4 rogue 4 paladin. The 4th level rogue thief acrobat No Mercy 30% damage to helpless is looking great on trash especially since it stacks with sense weakness. Bully in the ravager is another 15% damage, but FB is better for THF. Just think that defense is getting easier to build for with +24 physical resistance items and +10 dodge items. With a high stunning blow build you can kill things quick..

All those builds don't even compete at this point. Six monk provides the same no mercy for 30% helpless damage in addition to 1 additional multiplier, 3-4 sneak attack die steps, and fists of iron (+3 w +1 threat and multiplier, cooldown 3 seconds), shadow fade for 25% incorporeality, better saves, dodge, ninja poison.

The only nice thing about barb is the speed with which I can charge blitz because of supreme cleave. After playing both versions, the monk version soars ahead.

the fighter/barb/rogue splits are even worse, no divine might = **** tactics and no scroll mastery = crappy self healing.

maddmatt70
08-26-2013, 11:22 AM
All those builds don't even compete at this point. Six monk provides the same no mercy for 30% helpless damage in addition to 1 additional multiplier, 3-4 sneak attack die steps, and fists of iron (+3 w +1 threat and multiplier, cooldown 3 seconds), shadow fade for 25% incorporeality, better saves, dodge, ninja poison.

The only nice thing about barb is the speed with which I can charge blitz because of supreme cleave. After playing both versions, the monk version soars ahead.

the fighter/barb/rogue splits are even worse, no divine might = **** tactics and no scroll mastery = crappy self healing.

Was thinking about 10 rogue 6 monk 4 paladin q-staff. You can get no mercy twice for 60%. cocoon is far better then scroll mastery and you would be able to get that with 4 pally. Tactics would be a question, but still probably high.

Teh_Troll
08-26-2013, 01:13 PM
Was thinking about 10 rogue 6 monk 4 paladin q-staff. You can get no mercy twice for 60%. cocoon is far better then scroll mastery and you would be able to get that with 4 pally. Tactics would be a question, but still probably high.


Weren't you not even two weeks ago ranting about cacoon as asking for a nerf?

Cetus - build looks strong, thank you.

maddmatt70
08-26-2013, 01:44 PM
Weren't you not even two weeks ago ranting about cacoon as asking for a nerf?

Cetus - build looks strong, thank you.

Well I hope they nerf it, but until they do every single one of my characters except my wf sorc and pure rogue and mayhaps my 2 tanks will have it. It is not a D&D abilty and it is too good to pass up go figure.

unbongwah
08-26-2013, 03:05 PM
Weren't you not even two weeks ago ranting about cacoon as asking for a nerf?
Just b/c you think something should be nerfed b/c it's OP doesn't mean you won't exploit the hell outta it until it is nerfed. :D E.g., how many people made builds based on barb PL stacking with barb Rage, even though they knew it wasn't WAI and would be nerfed? There are lots of thingsI think are ridiculously unbalanced about the Enhancement overhaul, but I'd be a fool not to take advantage of them while I can.

TheLegendOfAra
08-26-2013, 04:59 PM
Being the idiot I am...

Cetusssssssssss you noob!
I need a fighter build for my next life(Or the one after that if I decide to go pali first).
Being the AA I am, I was thinking Helves Angel. But then you teased me with this.

It looks like fun.

Nightmanis
08-26-2013, 05:58 PM
I am wondering if the build could not also work with 2 levels of paladin then you get the bonus for saves also...

Another problem is Pallies don't get turn undead until lvl 4. Ask me how I know and why my fighter is currently sitting on his thumbs.

TheLegendOfAra
08-27-2013, 05:18 AM
Another problem is Pallies don't get turn undead until lvl 4. Ask me how I know and why my fighter is currently sitting on his thumbs.

I know I shouldn't laugh at this but... Well, Hehehe.

Nightmanis
08-27-2013, 05:27 AM
i know i shouldn't laugh at this but... Well, hehehe.

q_q

Cetus
08-27-2013, 05:57 PM
OP updated with most recent thoughts

Cetus
08-27-2013, 07:10 PM
Was thinking about 10 rogue 6 monk 4 paladin q-staff. You can get no mercy twice for 60%. cocoon is far better then scroll mastery and you would be able to get that with 4 pally. Tactics would be a question, but still probably high.

That build looks pretty decent for dps, but any save based tactics will be entirely unreliable in EE stuff. I pushed a 76-78 stunning blow DC, giants saved a lot of the time and the orc berserkers to a lesser extent too.

I've gotten stuns off, but its nowhere near no fail - with a 78 DC. That build won't get anywhere near a 78, divine might probably won't be all that useful for it.

What are your goals with it? Max red named damage? Max helpless damage? Versatility?

maddmatt70
08-27-2013, 07:35 PM
That build looks pretty decent for dps, but any save based tactics will be entirely unreliable in EE stuff. I pushed a 76-78 stunning blow DC, giants saved a lot of the time and the orc berserkers to a lesser extent too.

I've gotten stuns off, but its nowhere near no fail - with a 78 DC. That build won't get anywhere near a 78, divine might probably won't be all that useful for it.

What are your goals with it? Max red named damage? Max helpless damage? Versatility?

Hmm not sure I buy your 76-78+ fort dc exactly. I know they have lower will saves then fort, but I am landing will save spells with quite a bit less will dc then that on my cc bard. I have to test out fort saves better myself. Also most mobs are not orc berserkers or giants, but that is another story of course.

The purpose is more of a trash killer with high survivability and yet decent boss dps (it will have high bluff skill for boss dps to get sneak damage). The helpless damage is about killing trash - obviously running with a mass hold guru is a good idea.

Nightmanis
08-27-2013, 09:30 PM
That build looks pretty decent for dps, but any save based tactics will be entirely unreliable in EE stuff. I pushed a 76-78 stunning blow DC, giants saved a lot of the time and the orc berserkers to a lesser extent too.

I've gotten stuns off, but its nowhere near no fail - with a 78 DC. That build won't get anywhere near a 78, divine might probably won't be all that useful for it.

What are your goals with it? Max red named damage? Max helpless damage? Versatility?

Ok maybe I missed something. Do the saves seriously jump that much between wheloon and the storm horns? In Wheloon I was running with a 65 fists and doing fairly well on EE. Just got it to 72 and the highest I can hope for is a sustained 76, but how the hell does it jump up by 15+ points?

Cetus
08-28-2013, 12:45 AM
Hmm not sure I buy your 76-78+ fort dc exactly. .

Because I'm making it up

Their will saves are FAR lower than their fort; but the fort can get ridiculously high for some select enemies.

My DC:

88 strength w/ a +8 item atm (91 w/ a +11 to be fitted into gear setup) = 39 for now

39 + 10 Base + Stunning 10 + Combat Mastery +5 + 6 LD + 3 Past lives + 2 Enhancements + 2 Epic tactician = 77 tactics DC

Giants save a ton, orc berserkers sometimes. The assassins and casters are easy.

Trash:

That much helpless damage is overkill imo. I just dropped sense weakness altogether and picked up only 20% no mercy, and I'm still slicing through hoards of held mobs like nothing. I'll probably drop no mercy completely and put the points toward maxing out my red named dps.

mezzorco
08-28-2013, 04:43 AM
Hi cetus :)

At the moment I have a level 9 dwarf first lifer, and I want to LR him in a fighter build in order to TR him as soon as 20.
Do you think your build is well suited for fast 10-20 content?
Thank you :D

maddmatt70
08-28-2013, 09:45 AM
Because I'm making it up

Their will saves are FAR lower than their fort; but the fort can get ridiculously high for some select enemies.

My DC:

88 strength w/ a +8 item atm (91 w/ a +11 to be fitted into gear setup) = 39 for now

39 + 10 Base + Stunning 10 + Combat Mastery +5 + 6 LD + 3 Past lives + 2 Enhancements + 2 Epic tactician = 77 tactics DC

Giants save a ton, orc berserkers sometimes. The assassins and casters are easy.

Trash:

That much helpless damage is overkill imo. I just dropped sense weakness altogether and picked up only 20% no mercy, and I'm still slicing through hoards of held mobs like nothing. I'll probably drop no mercy completely and put the points toward maxing out my red named dps.

There are plenty of quests where the quest is more about killing trash then it is about killing red names. In trash killing quests 10 rogue 6 monk 4 paladin is going to be great. High 60s for the character is definitely feasible when fully geared out and that will work on alot of targets. As a specialist player I can always trot out my pure twf rogue or my archer or whatever my inactive paladin will end up being. Of course I have alot of work to do to level and gear those characters, but that is the fun of ddo.

Cetus
08-28-2013, 09:56 AM
There are plenty of quests where the quest is more about killing trash then it is about killing red names. In trash killing quests 10 rogue 6 monk 4 paladin is going to be great. High 60s for the character is definitely feasible when fully geared out and that will work on alot of targets. As a specialist player I can always trot out my pure twf rogue or my archer or whatever my inactive paladin will end up being. Of course I have alot of work to do to level and gear those characters, but that is the fun of ddo.

Well, if thats your interest - by all means pursue it. As you said, its all about having fun.

In my opinion however, the helpless damage bonuses rise to an artificial level of importance - the only reason I even take it is because I like the bigger numbers; but not enough to sacrifice character functionality.

With dreadnaught I'm already doing +100% helpless damage total. If I'm blitzing, quests like breaking the ranks get sliced through nicely, the extra helpless damage is overkill - points better spent elsewhere such as third tactic tier or extra SA die step.

In the end, I think it would be a super fun build to play, I'm just calling it for what it is in practice.

Cetus
08-28-2013, 10:02 AM
Hi cetus :)

At the moment I have a level 9 dwarf first lifer, and I want to LR him in a fighter build in order to TR him as soon as 20.
Do you think your build is well suited for fast 10-20 content?
Thank you :D

Hey,

Ehh...well it depends on how skillful of a player you are. Really, any build in general (barring overtly busted combinations) will do well in 10-20 content. Are you planning on doing it all on EE? I think 2 pally would be a better thing for leveling, since the massive save bonuses just let you zerg the stuff without thinking about it much.

If you're going to TR, then you'll miss out on a lot of what makes this build shine at endgame, I probably wouldn't even pick up the ranged stuff and just max out my defenses and melee dps (sorry didnt do the build post yet, but this build has full ranged capabiliy).

Hope that helps a bit.

maddmatt70
08-28-2013, 10:11 AM
Well, if thats your interest - by all means pursue it. As you said, its all about having fun.

In my opinion however, the helpless damage bonuses rise to an artificial level of importance - the only reason I even take it is because I like the bigger numbers; but not enough to sacrifice character functionality.

With dreadnaught I'm already doing +100% helpless damage total. If I'm blitzing, quests like breaking the ranks get sliced through nicely, the extra helpless damage is overkill - points better spent elsewhere such as third tactic tier or extra SA die step.

In the end, I think it would be a super fun build to play, I'm just calling it for what it is in practice.

I hear yeah. I do think that a character like this is very useful espcially with the randomness of what you get with the pug scene and other players in the group. Breaking the ranks is a great example because you never know who you will be running with. Last night did a breaking the ranks ee on my 12 fighter 6 monk 2 druid, archer. My archer is very effective and all, but it was late night so I was a sleepy and I did a poor job of instructing the other players in the quest who were new to it. We pooched the quest in part because people were attacking the wrong targets a bit, but also because our dps on the trash was mediocre. It would have been nice to be running with some 10 rogue 6 monk 4 paladin types just saying.

The other thing about blitz is running with other players that do very good dps and kill targets then you get into this weird killing situation where other players hurt the blitzers dps. It almost discourages someone from running with other good dps/killing players haha. Seriously Shade/Axer wrote Legendary Dreadnaught I am almost positive. I have always kind of despised master's blitz because master's blitz is such a me me me ability probably the most selfish ability in DDO.

Bridge_Dweller
08-28-2013, 10:19 AM
Seriously Shade/Axer wrote Legendary Dreadnaught I am almost positive. I have always kind of despised master's blitz because master's blitz is such a me me me ability probably the most selfish ability in DDO.


Love it!

Cetus
08-28-2013, 06:36 PM
I hear yeah. I do think that a character like this is very useful espcially with the randomness of what you get with the pug scene and other players in the group. Breaking the ranks is a great example because you never know who you will be running with. Last night did a breaking the ranks ee on my 12 fighter 6 monk 2 druid, archer. My archer is very effective and all, but it was late night so I was a sleepy and I did a poor job of instructing the other players in the quest who were new to it. We pooched the quest in part because people were attacking the wrong targets a bit, but also because our dps on the trash was mediocre. It would have been nice to be running with some 10 rogue 6 monk 4 paladin types just saying.

The other thing about blitz is running with other players that do very good dps and kill targets then you get into this weird killing situation where other players hurt the blitzers dps. It almost discourages someone from running with other good dps/killing players haha. Seriously Shade/Axer wrote Legendary Dreadnaught I am almost positive. I have always kind of despised master's blitz because master's blitz is such a me me me ability probably the most selfish ability in DDO.

Heh yea, well there are some strong blitzers in my grouping circles - but we just coordinate both of them. With these mob densities, theres plenty for everyone.

goodspeed
08-28-2013, 06:41 PM
Being the idiot I am...I screwed up my alignment using the +20 LR to get the monk levels in, so this narrows down the OP - I decided to go 12 fighter 6 monk 2 cleric as it stands right now.

So, I ended up doing 18 fighter 2 cleric in the meantime, and then LR in the 6 monk using 2 +3 hearts. I'll edit the OP with detail and videos when I can actually play the build.

Divine might + the 75% scroll mastery is very powerful.

I did the same damn thing. After going back and forth making sure I was setting it up right, I hit c and glanced to see neutral good. ****! Was with another build. But lesson learned.

Cetus
08-29-2013, 11:16 PM
Build Update:

Ok, forget the cleric levels. The pally split soars ahead. I ran around the end fight of EE what goes up freely, took down a shadaver and almost a full pillar by myself while aggroing the end boss. It was pretty awesome.

cdr
08-30-2013, 10:19 PM
I must admit I don't understand the bow feats, especially Bow Strength... last time I checked Ninja Training II made Bow Strength non-functional.

Cetus
08-31-2013, 12:22 AM
I must admit I don't understand the bow feats, especially Bow Strength... last time I checked Ninja Training II made Bow Strength non-functional.

Huh?

I actually think you're right

What the hell...that's gotta be a bug

cdr
08-31-2013, 01:10 AM
Huh?

I actually think you're right

What the hell...that's gotta be a bug

It's been there since the very first enhancement preview. It's the reason Carpone abandoned ranged/melee hybrid altogether. I've filed a bug report (and I'd encourage others to do the same), but I have yet to see any acknowledgement of the issue.

Cetus
08-31-2013, 12:29 PM
It's been there since the very first enhancement preview. It's the reason Carpone abandoned ranged/melee hybrid altogether. I've filed a bug report (and I'd encourage others to do the same), but I have yet to see any acknowledgement of the issue.

I've totally missed the boat on that bug, but provided that its supposed to work - the build remains the same. Even still, I've been getting good damage off my bow - just not nearly as good as it could be without bow strength.

Cetus
09-02-2013, 10:09 PM
It seems that the ninja training II bug isn't always applicable. I've been getting outstanding manyshot damage recently, very comparable to my old damage numbers, if not better.

Bug or not, ranged still fully worthwhile

VorpalKnight
09-03-2013, 06:17 PM
It seems that the ninja training II bug isn't always applicable. I've been getting outstanding manyshot damage recently, very comparable to my old damage numbers, if not better.

Bug or not, ranged still fully worthwhile

Looks very solid, couple of questions:

So to get all the feats required you only need to take 2 +5 tomes, Wisdom and Dex? Might have to open my piggy bank a bit and get these 2 tomes.

How does this compare to pure Horc Barbarian or Horc 18barb/2 fighter splash with the new enhancement pass in terms of dps? I started playing shortly again so not sure how well it stacks up against them, but I know you know your **** so I might as well ask here. Seems that having damage and haste boost active will somewhat compensate when all cleaves and momentum swing are on cool down for the lost of Horc THF bonuses.

I was thinking of skipping shadow veil so i still can use bow str, instead of eSoS just use a EatGA(that Dance of flowers extra 1.5 while centered seems pretty good) and instead of primal scream using momentum swings, for ED using legendary dreadnought, what is your opinion on this? If doing that, should I might as well stay Barb?

Cetus
09-03-2013, 06:44 PM
Looks very solid, couple of questions:

So to get all the feats required you only need to take 2 +5 tomes, Wisdom and Dex? Might have to open my piggy bank a bit and get these 2 tomes.

How does this compare to pure Horc Barbarian or Horc 18barb/2 fighter splash with the new enhancement pass in terms of dps? I started playing shortly again so not sure how well it stacks up against them, but I know you know your **** so I might as well ask here. Seems that having damage and haste boost active will somewhat compensate when all cleaves and momentum swing are on cool down for the lost of Horc THF bonuses.

I was thinking of shadow veil so i still can use bow str, instead of eSoS just use a EatGA(that Dance of flowers extra 1.5 while centered seems pretty good) and instead of primal scream using momentum swings, for ED using legendary dreadnought, what is your opinion on this? If doing that, should I might as well stay Barb?

Well, if you're looking to build a barbarian, you have a few decent choices.

Personally, I'd probably do an 18 Barbarian/1Fighter/1Cleric - that way you get tier 3 haste boost and divine might from cleric. You'd have an outstanding strength if you invest into your charisma. Thats a build I tinkered around with for a bit, but this fighter version still soars ahead in my opinion.

In terms of DPS, its hard to say. They're both very powerful damage dealing characters. I'd be lying if I gave you a clear cut answer because dealing damage became a much more dynamic process.

But, Damage wise, the build I outlined receives +2 Threat expansion from kensei, a constant +1 crit multiplier from earth stance on 19/20's, at least 3 Tiers of sneak attack damage dice, +6 to damage from kensei tree, and a spammable fist of iron which adds an additional +1 multiplier on ANY crit, +1 threat expansion, and +3 W damage.

Also, the ninja poison is surprisingly awesome. That ticks for 100+ (saw 140) every 3 seconds, effectively adding about 40 DPS.

Balance that against, say frenzy, which gives 3 Multiplier on 19/20, frenzy + death frenzy damage, and their strength bonus to damage + PA line.

I'm assuming they both have divine might, if I use the 18/1/1 barb build I outlined.

For all intents and purposes, I think its safe to say that their damage is comparable - its the other "stuff" that makes this build destroy the barb version - its the killer saves, which allows me to evade otherwise devastating EE otilukes from Ice elementals, which allow me to neglect the threat of a 73 DC flesh to stone from the end boss in EE what goes up.

Furthermore, this build has 25% incorporeal bonus + 17% dodge (28% while blitzed) + 333 per heal scroll due to healing amp access.

Also, remember that horc doesn't provide the extra feat that human does, nor does it provide stacking damage boost and access to action surge stats like human does. The strength discrepancy (also as a result of 2 lower charisma from horc if going with divine might) all needs to be weighed and calibrated to end up at an even number.

Ranged:

The barbarian cannot take advantage of manyshot without some serious feat sacrifice. You'd need to spend 6 feats to become proficient with bow damage = and a horc barbarian with 1 fighter level has 11 total feats. The remaining 5 are what? You need cleave, great cleave, overwhelming crit, power attack, IC: slashing. If you do that, then you lose stunning blow - a major tactic for which you should have plenty DC for if you combine barbarian strength with divine might. I wouldn't sacrifice stunning blow for ranged.

the 6 ranged feats: WF: ranged, bow strength, Rapid shot, PBS, manyshot, IC: Ranged.

I suppose you can lose IC: Ranged, and work stunning blow in - but meh, that depends on preference, I personally value stunning blow too much to deal with threatening enemies such as casters and assassins and such.

Twists:

So, I've settled on Dance of flowers (cannot pass this up), Bane of undeath (need this for divine mights), and sense weakness (not even for the helpless damage, but because all the extra back end damage is nice against bosses), and play in LD 90% of the time.

I ended up dumping primal scream, and just calibrated my stats to be even with a rage spell - that way I only lose 2 effective str/con.

Hope that helps, the 18/1/1 is an effective build, but it'll get pwned a lot because of inadequate saves in EE stuff.

Weapon:

With this build, ESOS returns to being king DPS wise. Spamming fists of iron every 3 seconds gives a 12-20 crit range, with an extra multiplier on all 12-20 crits.

Also, it frees up my trinket to wear litany, which throws my cha even

So, with fists of iron 19/20's are x3 + 1 overwhelming + 1 devastating + 1 earth stance + 1 fists = x7 multiplier.

A frenzied barb is 1 ahead with a x8

cdr
09-03-2013, 08:20 PM
It's tough deciding between Carpone's build and yours. If clerics could use turns for Divine Might instead of SP I'd probably do Carpone's with 2 cleric. Your build is closer to what my fighter was already though. I planned it out with -2 fighter +2 paladin, and that's probably what I'll go with. I don't like Stunning Blow - just personal preference - and I like Cocoon, so -Stunning Blow/Tactician/Bane of Undeath +Empower Heal/Cocoon.

Cetus
09-03-2013, 09:13 PM
It's tough deciding between Carpone's build and yours. If clerics could use turns for Divine Might instead of SP I'd probably do Carpone's with 2 cleric. Your build is closer to what my fighter was already though. I planned it out with -2 fighter +2 paladin, and that's probably what I'll go with. I don't like Stunning Blow - just personal preference - and I like Cocoon, so -Stunning Blow/Tactician/Bane of Undeath +Empower Heal/Cocoon.

Well, I have two MAJOR problem with carpones build:

The saves are pretty bad. Thats one of the reasons I abandoned the 2 cleric, and consider that an overwhelmingly successful decision.

The other part are the druid levels, I don't like them, the doublestrike boost doesn't do it for me over 2 pally - especially when I have a backup damage boost from dreadnaught. I never run out of all my boosts - closest I come is in EE What goes up. I'd never even get to the doublestrike boost.

I hope this feedback is well received, no disrespect meant to that build split at all, these are just my reasons for not liking it.

VorpalKnight
09-03-2013, 09:47 PM
With this build, ESOS returns to being king DPS wise. Spamming fists of iron every 3 seconds gives a 12-20 crit range, with an extra multiplier on all 12-20 crits.

Also, it frees up my trinket to wear litany, which throws my cha even

So, with fists of iron 19/20's are x3 + 1 overwhelming + 1 devastating + 1 earth stance + 1 fists = x7 multiplier.

A frenzied barb is 1 ahead with a x8


For what its worth it also losses 20% glancing blow damage compared to 18 barb(Mad Munitions and angry arms each add 5% and Focus Wide adds 10% on vorpal for 12 secs).

I Forgot that it doesn't have Supreme cleave to spam, so momentum swings is not gonna be up as much as pure barb, that does make human or half elf a no brainier, for some reason I keep assuming that everyone has access to those barb features.

I am not a Completionist though, and also only have EAGA which is why not 100% sure if this build is better for me, wouldn't going Half be better for the extra SA dice considering that I have a free feat spot since I don't have to take completionist?




The saves are pretty bad. Thats one of the reasons I abandoned the 2 cleric, and consider that an overwhelmingly successful decision.

That's one of the things that I like about your build and was curious about the other build that was linked, If i am gonna have bad saves might as well not bother with tr'ing and stick to barb, I want it to be as different as possible.

Also my naga just got the double clicking problem a few months ago, second one they send me, might wanna see if there's a logitech alternative as i hear they have better quality, just figured i toss that out there since you did advertise it, because I like the mouse but it seems that quite a lot of them get faulty after a year or so(first one had double clicking probs after 6 months).

cdr
09-03-2013, 09:48 PM
Carpone abandoned saves for improved evasion, not like it wasn't deliberate. He has more damage mitigation and healing too, albeit from giving up ranged. Both builds obviously work. I was mostly interested in Carpone's to have a monk icon while swinging Cleaver around though.

VorpalKnight
09-03-2013, 10:09 PM
Carpone abandoned saves for improved evasion, not like it wasn't deliberate. He has more damage mitigation and healing too, albeit from giving up ranged. Both builds obviously work. I was mostly interested in Carpone's to have a monk icon while swinging Cleaver around though.


I came back to DDO to be harrased by the difficult choice of carpones or cestus build and classes with enough abilities to fill more than 1 hotbars... should have stuck with neverwinter with their one cookie cutter build per class and their q,e,r,tab,shift options for abilities :p

Cetus
09-03-2013, 10:52 PM
For what its worth it also losses 20% glancing blow damage compared to 18 barb(Mad Munitions and angry arms each add 5% and Focus Wide adds 10% on vorpal for 12 secs).

I've considered the glancing blow damage, and it depends on what kind of 18 barb you're talking about. If its a barb that tried to keep the ranged ability - the glancing blow damage is lower or 10% higher depending on your race choice.

For instance, Lets try a Horc 18 Barb/1Fighter/1Cleric Like I suggested earlier with Ranged capability:

Feats #: 7 Regular + 1 Fighter + 3 Epic = 11 Feats

1. IC: Ranged 2. Bow Strength 3. WF: Ranged 4: PBS 5: Rapid Shot 6: Manyshot 7: Cleave 8: Great Cleave 9: Overwhelming Critical 10: Power Attack 11: IC: Slashing

This Build doesn't have stunning blow, and loses 30% on glance damage due to the lack of all THF feats.

Lets try a human version with 1 extra feat - Now you gain stunning blow.

If you abandon the cleric, you lose a very substantial amount of strength, and replace it with, say ranger to gain 2 feats back:

Now you have THF/ITHF - still down 10% glancing damage, and judging from my current cha and subtracting completionist, about 14 strength with insightful 3 taken into account.

Now lets incorporate the AP's from frenzy:

37 Points in Frenzy tree - gives +20% glance damage - Now, horc 18/1/1 Cleric is 10% behind

Horc 18/1/1Ranger is 10% ahead - but loses divine might altogether.

Lets try a Barb with no ranged feats altogether - now it can freely pick up GTHF, and pull 20% ahead. But, manyshot is now lost.

3 feats remaining, since 3 of the 6 ranged feats went toward THF. As a horc, one would go toward stunning blow, and still two feats hanging around as a horc, one would go toward completionist for me - and the other can be either epic fortitude perhaps or whatever you like.

Either way, you either lose divine might - which is incredibly important as far as I'm concerned, or lose complete ranged capability, also hard to go back on after getting used to having.

It'll still be effective, but the saves are still crappy and something major has to give, its seems like a better choice to just go this split and have it all. =D


I Forgot that it doesn't have Supreme cleave to spam, so momentum swings is not gonna be up as much as pure barb, that does make human or half elf a no brainier, for some reason I keep assuming that everyone has access to those barb features.

You know, I went with a Fighter/barb/cleric split for exactly that reason - and I didn't like it. With the monk, I spam my earth strikes and fists of iron in addition to my momentum swings, so in actual practical gameplay - extra momentum swings mean nothing to me, I can barely keep up with hitting the ones I have as quick as possible.

I am not a Completionist though, and also only have EAGA which is why not 100% sure if this build is better for me, wouldn't going Half be better for the extra SA dice considering that I have a free feat spot since I don't have to take completionist?

Ehh...not really. For several reasons actually. 1. Not having completionsit means you can take a more meaningful feat for the extra feat you would have. Personally, if I HAD to pick a barb split, I'd choose the ranged version because I find it very effective to snipe things when needed (especially when I run fury), and use the extra human feat to pick up stunning blow (raging + divine might = workable DC). Also, human looks much better =D. Additionally, human has access to another healing amp tier over helf, and allows for several action surge boosts - +3 extra strength/cha/and maybe even dex or con. Helf has, and causes a dump point for the first core which is a turn off.



That's one of the things that I like about your build and was curious about the other build that was linked, If i am gonna have bad saves might as well not bother with tr'ing and stick to barb, I want it to be as different as possible.

The saves is a MAJOR point if EE content is what you're building for. I ran a mid 50's reflex on the cleric version and just got torn up. Now, I'm hitting 70 and I'm seeing evades all over the place, much better. Furthermore, having a mid 70's fortitude save allows me to neglect flesh to stones etc..

I tried to be different, but I'm going where the power is - even if it means cookie cutter at this point in time. A lot of ones originality sometimes emerges from your playstyle, not just the build split. Two people can play the same split very differently, so it doesn't really bother me.

Also my naga just got the double clicking problem a few months ago, second one they send me, might wanna see if there's a logitech alternative as i hear they have better quality, just figured i toss that out there since you did advertise it, because I like the mouse but it seems that quite a lot of them get faulty after a year or so(first one had double clicking probs after 6 months).

Yea, I've been lucky with mine and had it for almost 2 years now and no issues. The logitech one will probably be my go-to if this naga craps out. Either way, having a mouse with lots of buttons is my major point - regardless of what the maker is.



Comments in red.


Carpone abandoned saves for improved evasion, not like it wasn't deliberate. He has more damage mitigation and healing too, albeit from giving up ranged. Both builds obviously work. I was mostly interested in Carpone's to have a monk icon while swinging Cleaver around though.

Well, reflex isn't the only important save. Fortitude is just as important now, getting pwned at the end fight of EE what goes up because of a flesh to stone or a disintegrate wasn't something that had to be tolerated.

Also, failing a save + improved evasion < Making the save + evasion IMO. No need for improved evasion if you can just make the save.


Carpones build does have more damage mitigation, mostly because he has a higher PRR. But, this build can incorporate pretty much the same PRR sources as that build can - just twist in standing with stone, use the cleaver set bonus, and put points into the shintao earth stance enhancement.

The only difference is lack of cocoon and metamagic, which I don't really care for with back up LOH's and 333 a heal scroll. I ran all of the EE content in stormhorns with just heal scrolls and emergency LOH's, and did fine.

Afterall, its a DPS build - not a build made for survivability - so the build goals are quite different there - one maybe "better" than the other depending on what ones goals are too.


Thanks for the feedback folks. All good discussion!

DnD3
09-04-2013, 12:34 AM
What do you think about the feat "Precise shot"? I know melees never stands still but not sure ranged, it says up to once every half second after you stand still for 3 seconds, can stack up to 15 times for a cool 30% with manyshot, or up to 50% with "improved archers focus", seems very situational but is taking this worth it?

Cetus
09-04-2013, 10:08 AM
What do you think about the feat "Precise shot"? I know melees never stands still but not sure ranged, it says up to once every half second after you stand still for 3 seconds, can stack up to 15 times for a cool 30% with manyshot, or up to 50% with "improved archers focus", seems very situational but is taking this worth it?

Precise shot is only useful if you're looking to acquire improved precise shot. Alone, not worth it - especially for this build which uses ranged during manyshots.

I think Imprved precise shot is powerful ot have, but that would mean dropping GTHF/ITHF, or just GTHF if you are a non-completionist - eh, maybe...But I'm a melee build first, ranged second. This one will vary based on preference, either way is useful.

OP:

I've almost got the gear set figured out, ESOS is destroying cleaver DPS-wise because it allows me to equip a litany, drop nether grasps, equip backstabbers, drop Epic spare hand, and equip consuming darkness for seeker 12/+5 DC's. With litany, the build has a constant 44 charisma - no gear swaps needed. Furthermore, skirmishers bracers give me an additional 8% doublestrike - allowing me to sit at a total of 18% doublestrike with a 12/6/2 wielding an ESOS.

Additionally, it liberates several AP's in my destiny tree because I don't need headmans chop and used to have anvil of thunder. More destiny AP's = good.

The only swap this build needs is a planar focus trinket during manyshot to get the artifact damage bonus in.

Also, thought about wearing claw set but its less damage versus 8% doublestrike, or backstabbers gloves if I choose the bracers/gloves route.

Going gloves/trinket means losing backstabbers and litany - also a DPS loss.

This is the direction the gear is going so far, I'll do a more formal write up when its complete.

Its turning out pretty uber actually

Cetus
09-04-2013, 07:33 PM
Added tentative gear setup and screenshot of self buffed stats

Cetus
09-05-2013, 10:29 AM
OP Updated

cdr
09-05-2013, 11:28 AM
You may want to use imgur.com for pics, so people don't have to deal with photobucket's terrible interface.

Cetus
09-05-2013, 11:38 AM
You may want to use imgur.com for pics, so people don't have to deal with photobucket's terrible interface.

Cool, I'll try it

djl
09-07-2013, 03:06 PM
I am looking very hard at TRing my barb into a monk/fighter build. I have both eSOS and Cleaver, although my Cleaver is not upgraded beyond the set bonus ATM.

The biggest thing for me is that I don't have a Pinion so doing the ranged build seems a bit silly. And since Turbine made the COMPLETELY ASININE decision to FUBAR everybody's raid completions, Web is no longer run nearly as often as it once was. I am currently sitting at 9 heroic/8 epic completions, so if they ever fix it I'll only be three away from a list.

So, first of all, what do I take in lieu of all those Ranger feats? I still have my "free" LR (used my +20 already) so if I ever get Pinion, I can use that to swap out all those feats to build for Manyshot.

Second, I obviously am not a completionist, so would I be able to take Blinding Speed at 27, or would that bork the build? I would be taking that instead of the completionist feat, if it doesn't mess up the feat order.

The last thing is that I lack a few key items from your build. I do not have a true globe, which hurts badly, and I don't have EE goats boots. I also don't have a Litany, or a +10 Stunning Dun Robar ring (although I can probably find one on the SAH eventually). I plan to use Arkat's Cord for the built-in Vitality and the two slots, and EE Jeweled Cloak. I would slot some kind of random-gen item in my trinket slot, possibly 10 strength 50 HP. I also have a 110% fort 8% dodge ring with two slots.

So, based off that, I have 9 slots. Without needing to slot Vitality or Heavy Fort, I need 5, plus an additional 4 minimum colorless to make up for all the exceptional +1s I am losing by not having a globe (strength, dex, con, charisma/wisdom). Think that would work?



To recap:

1) What feats do I take instead of Ranger feats, until I get a pinion?

2) Would I be able to take Blinding Speed?

3) Because I do not have a few of the items (most importantly, Globe, Backstabbers Gloves, and Dun Robar), would I still be able to be effective?


Thanks in advance for any questions you are able to answer!

Cetus
09-07-2013, 10:10 PM
I am looking very hard at TRing my barb into a monk/fighter build. I have both eSOS and Cleaver, although my Cleaver is not upgraded beyond the set bonus ATM.

The biggest thing for me is that I don't have a Pinion so doing the ranged build seems a bit silly. And since Turbine made the COMPLETELY ASININE decision to FUBAR everybody's raid completions, Web is no longer run nearly as often as it once was. I am currently sitting at 9 heroic/8 epic completions, so if they ever fix it I'll only be three away from a list.

So, first of all, what do I take in lieu of all those Ranger feats? I still have my "free" LR (used my +20 already) so if I ever get Pinion, I can use that to swap out all those feats to build for Manyshot.

Second, I obviously am not a completionist, so would I be able to take Blinding Speed at 27, or would that bork the build? I would be taking that instead of the completionist feat, if it doesn't mess up the feat order.

The last thing is that I lack a few key items from your build. I do not have a true globe, which hurts badly, and I don't have EE goats boots. I also don't have a Litany, or a +10 Stunning Dun Robar ring (although I can probably find one on the SAH eventually). I plan to use Arkat's Cord for the built-in Vitality and the two slots, and EE Jeweled Cloak. I would slot some kind of random-gen item in my trinket slot, possibly 10 strength 50 HP. I also have a 110% fort 8% dodge ring with two slots.

So, based off that, I have 9 slots. Without needing to slot Vitality or Heavy Fort, I need 5, plus an additional 4 minimum colorless to make up for all the exceptional +1s I am losing by not having a globe (strength, dex, con, charisma/wisdom). Think that would work?



To recap:

1) What feats do I take instead of Ranger feats, until I get a pinion?

2) Would I be able to take Blinding Speed?

3) Because I do not have a few of the items (most importantly, Globe, Backstabbers Gloves, and Dun Robar), would I still be able to be effective?


Thanks in advance for any questions you are able to answer!

Ok, there's a lot here so allow me to employ a lettering format to organize the response a bit

A. Feats

So, if you aren't going to go ranged and don't have completionist - then you have 8 extra feats to play around with.

What I would do is max DPS, and put the rest into saves + tactics. The whirlwind attack chain comes to mind - but meh...the animation sucks and all that extra dodge is kind've worthless when blitzing (which is a lot of the time):

So, the 8 feats:

1. Greater Weapon Specialization (+2 Damage)
2. Precision (very useful for EE ice ellies and pillars, but kind've a pain to toggle with power attack)
3. Improved Sunder (no save fort debuff = better stuns)
4. Force of personality (Completely dump wisdom)
5. Pally Past life (if You don't have it, choose combat expertise)
6. If you chose combat expertise, acquire improved trip (this is 4 DC higher than regular trip, CC's assassins and casters nicely) Otherwise, choose power critical for 2 stacking seeker damage (ESOS crits 12-20 with iron fist, so it synergizes well)
7. Epic Feat: Epic Reflexes
8. Epic Feat: Epic Fortitude

I don't like wasting a feat on perma-haste, its a lazy way out and cheapens the build. Instead, get goatskins for permahaste.

B. Gear

Ehh...well at least you ahve something to grind for =D Litany, Globe, and Stunning +10 are kind've important, that allows brings you to +2 across all your stats, and makes your stunning blow useable.

If you can find a way to slot your exceptional +1's, do it I guess (forget wisdom if you take force of persoanlity, and forget intel for obvious reasons), but you won't have the slots for it when you progress to a more endgame setup.

You can still be effective, try to acquire at least the EN/EH version of the backstabbers gloves, the extra SA damage and improved deception are great.

Without the dun robar ring, your stuns won't be effective, but with it you'll actually be more effective than my build because of the improved sunder - which I couldn't fit in.

Be warned however, Improved sunder didn't seem to count toward blitz - and removes your normal sunder feat which does. So, charging blitz will be a tad slower - however the fortitude debuff is nice, your won't get the fortification one unless you swap in a shatter item, which you can do if you are into that.

Hope that helps

Nightmanis
09-07-2013, 11:09 PM
To recap:

1) What feats do I take instead of Ranger feats, until I get a pinion? It's not even mandatory to have Pinion. Just get a good bow and use it until then. Pinion may be the best but that doesn't mean everything else is complete trash. There are still barbs using EAGA and doing quite well.

2) Would I be able to take Blinding Speed? I don't see what it would hurt.

3) Because I do not have a few of the items (most importantly, Globe, Backstabbers Gloves, and Dun Robar), would I still be able to be effective? Same as the Pinion. Get something good to fill the slot with until you do have the item.


Thanks in advance for any questions you are able to answer!

Messages are coloured.

djl
09-08-2013, 10:07 AM
Well, I managed to snag a pair of EH boots. That will have to do for now.

I have another question-- Why backstabbers gloves? If you have aggro, you don't benefit from them and you'll likely have aggro most of the time, especially when you are blitzing.

Nightmanis
09-08-2013, 11:19 AM
Well, I managed to snag a pair of EH boots. That will have to do for now.

I have another question-- Why backstabbers gloves? If you have aggro, you don't benefit from them and you'll likely have aggro most of the time, especially when you are blitzing.

Because of the improved deception on them there is a strong chance that you will be able to sneak attack them even if you have aggro. Improved deception also works as a great form of damage reduction because nearly every time it procs the enemy will spin around. I keep a set of deception wraps on my rogue/monk simply because the Backstabber's and the wraps will work together and keep the enemy spinning around quite a lot. Useful only when I'm trying to tank something, though.

Cetus
09-08-2013, 11:30 AM
Well, I managed to snag a pair of EH boots. That will have to do for now.

I have another question-- Why backstabbers gloves? If you have aggro, you don't benefit from them and you'll likely have aggro most of the time, especially when you are blitzing.

Yea, what night said - also remember that blitz affects your SA damage too, so with the ninja spy sneak attack training + backstabbers = very nice SA damage.

cdr
09-08-2013, 11:47 AM
On the subject of bows, if you have them in your bank, Unwavering Ardency (Abbot) or Epic Thornlord (Sands) are the top Pinion stand-ins. The Bow of Sinew (Harbringer of Madness chain reward) is trivial to acquire and actually one of the top 5 high damage mod vs no fort target bows. I guess it's questionable whether you actually get a high damage mod though, considering the Ninja Spy bug. The Silver Flame Longbow (Church and Cult) should be competitive with Bow of Sinew if you have Seeker somewhere else already.

Carpone
09-08-2013, 12:23 PM
Well, I have two MAJOR problem with carpones build:

The saves are pretty bad. Thats one of the reasons I abandoned the 2 cleric, and consider that an overwhelmingly successful decision.

The other part are the druid levels, I don't like them, the doublestrike boost doesn't do it for me over 2 pally - especially when I have a backup damage boost from dreadnaught. I never run out of all my boosts - closest I come is in EE What goes up. I'd never even get to the doublestrike boost.

I hope this feedback is well received, no disrespect meant to that build split at all, these are just my reasons for not liking it.
The centered Cleaver build doesn't need saves. With Improved Evasion, you simply accept that you will only take half damage from nukers instead of hoping you can make saves in epic elite. That's meaningful when Ice Elementals are tossing 300 point Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. Kundarak Delving Boots may be ghetto, but they remove 90% of the reason to have meaningful Will saves. Shadowfell casters love Hold Person.

If 2 Paladin provided access to Empower Heal Spell, then I'd be all over it. That's the primary reason for Druid. The Doublestrike Action Boost is unnecessary for my build, but provided the best synergy compared to the other class splits available.

When U20 permits TRing into Bladeforged, and assuming Paladin levels will be required, then I'll be shifting to a 8 Fighter/6 Monk/6 Paladin centered Cleaver.

Nightmanis
09-08-2013, 12:54 PM
The centered Cleaver build doesn't need saves.

I'm gonna stop you right there. Every build need saves whether you can get them high or not. Even if you have improved evasion I would rather be able to hit 80% of the saves needed for EE content than just accept the idea that I'll take half damage.

0 Damage>Half damage

djl
09-08-2013, 12:58 PM
How did you get your Charisma so high?

Did you put level-up points into it?

My math adds up to 38 charisma fully buffed. I can only see 42 for you--

16 base
10 item (26)
5 tome (31)
2 ship (33)
2 yugo (35)
2 insightful (37)
1 exceptional (38)

With a Litany and +3 insightful, it's 40, and with completionist it's 42.

That said, would 38 Charisma be enough? And would you recommend putting level points into that instead of strength, since it would boost both my saves AND my strength modifier because of Pally/Divine Might?

Nightmanis
09-08-2013, 01:01 PM
How did you get your Charisma so high?

Did you put level-up points into it?

My math adds up to 38 charisma fully buffed. I can only see 42 for you--

16 base
10 item (26)
5 tome (31)
2 ship (33)
2 yugo (35)
2 insightful (37)
1 exceptional (38)

With a Litany and +3 insightful, it's 40, and with completionist it's 42.

That said, would 38 Charisma be enough? And would you recommend putting level points into that instead of strength, since it would boost both my saves AND my strength modifier because of Pally/Divine Might?

Human action surge +3. Use the +2 insightful (comes to 41), then use the surge and you've got 44.

djl
09-08-2013, 01:04 PM
Human action surge +3. Use the +2 insightful (comes to 41), then use the surge and you've got 44.

Ah, right.

So, would you recommend pumping Charisma? I can get 48 Charisma with action boost and 7 level points.

Nightmanis
09-08-2013, 01:07 PM
Ah, right.

So, would you recommend pumping Charisma? I can get 48 Charisma with action boost and 7 level points.

No. Remember it's just the modifier that's given to str, so those 7 levels in CHA would give +4 str, for a +2 to damage.

Actually think of it like the Monkcher rangers. Past 40 the returns diminish below the levels of usefulness without some major investment.

djl
09-08-2013, 01:22 PM
No. Remember it's just the modifier that's given to str, so those 7 levels in CHA would give +4 str, for a +2 to damage.

Actually think of it like the Monkcher rangers. Past 40 the returns diminish below the levels of usefulness without some major investment.

Hm.

Well, in that case I can just take 15 charisma then and put the extra two points into dex.

ycheese123
09-08-2013, 01:35 PM
It seems that the ninja training II bug isn't always applicable. I've been getting outstanding manyshot damage recently, very comparable to my old damage numbers, if not better.

Bug or not, ranged still fully worthwhile

Hm, I had no idea about bow strength not working with ninjaII. Would you say it's working often enough to the point where it's worth taking the 2 feats (wf:ranged + bow str) ?

I ask because about a week ago I made a variant of Carpone's build that I was going to TR into. I went 12fight/6monk/2ranger. Ranger for the positive spell power, 2 free feats, and infinite arrows. However, now I'm debating going with two pally levels after seeing your build. I'm still going to use cocoon, not sure I'm gonna twist in bane of undeath to use divine might. But I think 2 Pally is worth it alone for the bonus to saves -- it's easily +10 to nearly +20 saves, which is a lot. And divine might is there if I wanna twist bane and use it.

I'm definitely taking Manyshot whether bow strength is working or not, just wondering in your opinion is it worth the 2 feats for wf:ranged and bow str, or has ninjaII bugged it to the point where it's not worth it? Because 2 open feats would be fun.

cdr
09-08-2013, 01:47 PM
I ask because about a week ago I made a variant of Carpone's build that I was going to TR into. I went 12fight/6monk/2ranger. Ranger for the positive spell power, 2 free feats, and infinite arrows. However, now I'm debating going with two pally levels after seeing your build. I'm still going to use cocoon, not sure I'm gonna twist in bane of undeath to use divine might. But I think 2 Pally is worth it alone for the bonus to saves -- it's easily +10 to nearly +20 saves, which is a lot. And divine might is there if I wanna twist bane and use it.

I LRed a character into basically Cetus's build, except 10f/6m/4pal. That way I get Emp Heal and can twist in Cocoon. -Completionist (don't have) -Stunning Blow (don't like) +Empower Heal.

Cetus
09-08-2013, 01:50 PM
The centered Cleaver build doesn't need saves. With Improved Evasion, you simply accept that you will only take half damage from nukers instead of hoping you can make saves in epic elite. That's meaningful when Ice Elementals are tossing 300 point Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. Kundarak Delving Boots may be ghetto, but they remove 90% of the reason to have meaningful Will saves. Shadowfell casters love Hold Person.

If 2 Paladin provided access to Empower Heal Spell, then I'd be all over it. That's the primary reason for Druid. The Doublestrike Action Boost is unnecessary for my build, but provided the best synergy compared to the other class splits available.


Huh?

The otilukes is exactly the reason why saving with evasion is so much better. If you have ellies blasting you with otilukes, even half damage from improved evasion still results in getting whooped versus taking no damage at all, especially when you have 3-5 of them on you.

Also, improved evasion has nothing to do with your fort save - which is just as important as reflex in the hardest end fight in this update.

With the pally, its very easy to reach a 60 will save, I seldom get held with my boots off - which LD's unstoppable fixes easily. Boots slot better used for more meaningful gear if you can easily get a workable will save.


Hm, I had no idea about bow strength not working with ninjaII. Would you say it's working often enough to the point where it's worth taking the 2 feats (wf:ranged + bow str) ?

I ask because about a week ago I made a variant of Carpone's build that I was going to TR into. I went 12fight/6monk/2ranger. Ranger for the positive spell power, 2 free feats, and infinite arrows. However, now I'm debating going with two pally levels after seeing your build. I'm still going to use cocoon, not sure I'm gonna twist in bane of undeath to use divine might. But I think 2 Pally is worth it alone for the bonus to saves -- it's easily +10 to nearly +20 saves, which is a lot. And divine might is there if I wanna twist bane and use it.

I'm definitely taking Manyshot weather bow strength is working or not, just wondering in your opinion is it worth the 2 feats for wf:ranged and bow str, or has ninjaII bugged it to the point where it's not worth it? Because 2 open feats would be fun.

It works fine as far as I'm concerned, my manyshots are at least as good as they used to be, but I haven't subjected it to any rigorous experimentation - even if its bugged, this build is assuming that mechanics are operating correctly.

djl
09-08-2013, 02:06 PM
Another question I have regards the Master of Forms feat.

This guide recommends taking your last level of monk at 19 so that you can take Zen Archery. So, I need to take that so that I can easily featswap with a LR whenever I get a decent bow.

EDIT: Actually, I can't take both Epic Fort and Epic Reflexes anyway. They require ML 27, so I have to pick one.

Cetus
09-08-2013, 02:45 PM
Another question I have regards the Master of Forms feat.

This guide recommends taking your last level of monk at 19 so that you can take Zen Archery. So, I need to take that so that I can easily featswap with a LR whenever I get a decent bow.

EDIT: Actually, I can't take both Epic Fort and Epic Reflexes anyway. They require ML 27, so I have to pick one.

Ah, they do?

lol, I'd pick reflex

djl
09-08-2013, 03:02 PM
So, I've got as my extra feats:

Greater Weapon Specialization
Improved Sunder
Force of Personality
Precision
Dodge
Mobility
Toughness

Epic Reflex

I don't like the idea of sitting at 18% dodge when I am not blitzing. I could probably swap Mobility for something else and still be okay, though.

cdr
09-08-2013, 03:35 PM
So, I've got as my extra feats:

Greater Weapon Specialization
Improved Sunder
Force of Personality
Precision
Dodge
Mobility
Toughness

Epic Reflex

I don't like the idea of sitting at 18% dodge when I am not blitzing. I could probably swap Mobility for something else and still be okay, though.

Just pick up a bow - even it's a Sinew or Silver Flame. The bow component is just better and you'll learn how to play it correctly.

Ellihor
09-08-2013, 09:41 PM
What is bane of undead twist for? Also, i dont have a SoS, what best weapon after it? Was thinking about sireth (dont have to but seems easier to get and upgrade as noone runs von nowdays - and maybe could get some damage from henshin mysticto it).

Cetus
09-08-2013, 10:15 PM
What is bane of undead twist for? Also, i dont have a SoS, what best weapon after it? Was thinking about sireth (dont have to but seems easier to get and upgrade as noone runs von nowdays - and maybe could get some damage from henshin mysticto it).

Its funny you should mention this

I've been thinking about switching to sireth for about two days now, but my reasons for not doing so are purely aesthetic, I think my character just looks a lot cooler with a sword or axe than a damn quarterstaff...=D

Sireth is probably the best DPS option. But then it changes the AP distribution entirely, since you won't need one with the blade from Kensei, and will be better off with pushing the henshin mystic line instead to acquire the tier 5 +1threat/multiplier for quarterstaffs, its much better than alacrity because of the multiplier. However, you still want power surge from kensei, but depending on how the AP's play out - I've been contemplating dropping the weapon spec/weapon focus requirements and just forget the extra bit of damage from the kensei tree. Still playing with the idea...

The other kink to work out is the loss of litany which throws my cha odd again, the solution would be to find a cha 11 necklace with a slot, but yea...thats not happening anytime soon.

The part where it really pulls ahead is pulverizer from LD for even more threat expansion, with fists of iron you'd have it 10-20 x3 with supreme good, planar conflux set bonus, and constant fom.

The crappy part is that it doesn't get glancing blow procs with cleaves, which is a frustrating bug the devs still haven't fixed.

Soulfurnace
09-08-2013, 10:28 PM
The part where it really pulls ahead is pulverizer from LD for even more threat expansion, with fists of iron you'd have it 10-20 x3 with supreme good, planar conflux set bonus, and constant fom.
That was changed? Last I heard pulverizer did not work with Sireth (supposedly due to the lack of bludgeon damage component)

Cetus
09-08-2013, 10:32 PM
That was changed? Last I heard pulverizer did not work with Sireth (supposedly due to the lack of bludgeon damage component)

It doesn't? I could be completely off on this, I'll test it, thanks.

Edit:

You're right I just tested this, scratch the pulverizer thought. This makes sense because if you take morphic arrows it'll work with your bow. hint hint for those AA's out there.

It stills equals out in terms of profile with the esos, slightly lower base damage - but extra 3d6 damage per hit, conflux set (although this complicates the dps difference versus litany when counting the profane str, +1 dmg, and loss of cha), and saving 1 or 2 kensei pre req feats.

Plus, extra 25% doublestrike every 20 seconds for 10 seconds is kind've significant.

LupusVai
09-09-2013, 01:47 AM
Build Update:

Ok, forget the cleric levels. The pally split soars ahead. I ran around the end fight of EE what goes up freely, took down a shadaver and almost a full pillar by myself while aggroing the end boss. It was pretty awesome.


With only two levels of paladin how are you getting divine might to work. I've just tested it and you need four levels of paladin to get turn undead which provides the charges. I even tried adding the enhancement for extra turns to see if that somehow granted you turns for use with divine might, which it didn't. (strangely though it lets you buy the enhancement even though you cant use it lol)

EDIT: AH i've worked it out. Bane of undeath Twist provides turning ability.

Soulfurnace
09-09-2013, 02:30 AM
It stills equals out in terms of profile with the esos, slightly lower base damage - but extra 3d6 damage per hit, conflux set (although this complicates the dps difference versus litany when counting the profane str, +1 dmg, and loss of cha), and saving 1 or 2 kensei pre req feats.

Plus, extra 25% doublestrike every 20 seconds for 10 seconds is kind've significant.
Yeah, that doublestrike is quite nice. However, damage aside, Sireth makes lightning rain down. What does eSoS have to compare to giant bolts of lightning?

However, sireth bonus effects add up to 8.75+9.15+10.5, or 28.4 - which makes up for the base damage in favour of eSoS. (And base damage would be a closer gap when you consider monk staff mastery, if you get it.) Not playing nicely with cleaves is a PITA though.

Ellihor
09-09-2013, 01:39 PM
Yeah, that doublestrike is quite nice. However, damage aside, Sireth makes lightning rain down. What does eSoS have to compare to giant bolts of lightning?

However, sireth bonus effects add up to 8.75+9.15+10.5, or 28.4 - which makes up for the base damage in favour of eSoS. (And base damage would be a closer gap when you consider monk staff mastery, if you get it.) Not playing nicely with cleaves is a PITA though.

And it has fom too. For me it seems sireth is the way because I dont have a litany too and really dont want to grind for it.

Nodoze
09-09-2013, 05:10 PM
What stat & feat changes would you recommend for a 1st life 32 point human with a set of +5 tomes?

Since the +5 tomes won't be applied till level 19 in this first life I will likely will eat a +1/+3 Int or +2/+4 Int while leveling to max skill points in the first life. What other tomes will be required to get the feats (I can likely drop up to +3's on stats while leveling).

EDIT: Should we drop the Feat 7. Zen Archery until the Ninja Dex for damage bug is fixed and if so what would you put in it's place?

EDIT2: Since first lifer starting with no gear it seems like Sireth/Pinion would be the best direction in short/medium term. Would the Villagers of Eveningstar Commendation staff 'Stout Oak Walking Stick (http://ddowiki.com/page/Stout_Oak_Walking_Stick)' be a good stand in until Sireth can be acquired?

EDIT3: Never played monk with staff. What action point swaps would be recommended and what would be a good staff to get from the AH around level 15 (until you can get the 'Stout Oak Walking Stick' at level 20 if that is a decent option).

Carpone
09-09-2013, 06:26 PM
Huh?

The otilukes is exactly the reason why saving with evasion is so much better. If you have ellies blasting you with otilukes, even half damage from improved evasion still results in getting whooped versus taking no damage at all, especially when you have 3-5 of them on you.
Zerg tanking on epic elite isn't a strategy that leads to survivability. If it's not epic elite, then the damage from Otiluke's isn't meaningful enough to matter.


Also, improved evasion has nothing to do with your fort save - which is just as important as reflex in the hardest end fight in this update.
10 minutes of Unmoveable is plenty of time to ward off Petrify effects for the end fight of What Goes Up.


With the pally, its very easy to reach a 60 will save, I seldom get held with my boots off - which LD's unstoppable fixes easily. Boots slot better used for more meaningful gear if you can easily get a workable will save.
I'm not lacking any meaningful effects from my gearset by using Kundark Delving Boots. I also run with enough Shiradi casters that I prefer the immunity to Grease. :)

If Unstoppable actually works now against Hold Person, then that's another strike against building for Will saves.

djl
09-09-2013, 06:32 PM
But Unstoppable has a cool-down of three minutes.

It's not reliable enough to use in WGU.

Cetus
09-09-2013, 09:14 PM
Zerg tanking on epic elite isn't a strategy that leads to survivability. If it's not epic elite, then the damage from Otiluke's isn't meaningful enough to matter.

No? I tend to use that strategy...a lot. Its assumed that we're talking about EE btw, EN/EH isn't worth any attention.


10 minutes of Unmoveable is plenty of time to ward off Petrify effects for the end fight of What Goes Up.

Whats the point...when you can just have a static no fail fort save. You'll forget to click it, or an end fight in there may last longer than 10 minutes if you fall into a pinch, etc... Otherwise, why would you consider having a tertiary doublestrike boost a benefit of the druid splash, 30 boosts for 30 seconds each is like 15 minutes, 5 minutes of which is used when you have no more unmovables to use =D.

I'm not lacking any meaningful effects from my gearset by using Kundark Delving Boots. I also run with enough Shiradi casters that I prefer the immunity to Grease. :) Well, thats mostly because you ignore tactics and saves on the build (you include combat mastery 5 in your net change list, but its a totally meaningless change)

If Unstoppable actually works now against Hold Person, then that's another strike against building for Will saves.
Well, thats one way to look at it if you seek to strengthen an already pre determined argument. The way I look at it is just as an oh sh!t button in case I roll crappy against an otherwise savable hold.



Comments in red

Wipey
09-09-2013, 09:24 PM
Is Weapon Focus: Ranged taken solely for 1 to hit with bows ?
Wouldn't even less "popular" feats like Power Critical, Quick Draw, Force of personality or Magical Training be better choices ?
Or Precision for ranged only ( gasp !).

Nightmanis
09-09-2013, 09:27 PM
Is Weapon Focus: Ranged taken solely for 1 to hit with bows ?
Wouldn't even less "popular" feats like Power Critical, Quick Draw, Force of personality or Magical Training be better choices ?
Or Precision for ranged only ( gasp !).

Taken because it's a prereq for Bow Str

Cetus
09-09-2013, 09:40 PM
Is Weapon Focus: Ranged taken solely for 1 to hit with bows ?
Wouldn't even less "popular" feats like Power Critical, Quick Draw, Force of personality or Magical Training be better choices ?
Or Precision for ranged only ( gasp !).

Yea, its a pre -req, otherwise I'd fit in precise shot and probably drop GTHF for Improved precise shot.

Precision isn't bad too, but toggling that between PA is a pain in the ass.

Cetus
09-09-2013, 09:46 PM
To Carpone:

In the end:

- Tactics are receiving no attention, so your ability to CC aggro is non-existant.

- Saves are EE failures -

a) fortitude save reaches no fail zone with unmovable clicky, assuming that your buffs are maintained. Also, superior parrying is counted in your 54 fort save, yet you change it out for the bracers of twisting change in the post U19 gear setup. Then you aren't even no fail against FTS/disintegrate WITH unmovable clicky, because you reach a 70 against a 72 or 73 disintegrate/FTS DC.

b) Reflex save is very bad. Saves will fail consistently, and improved evasion will only cut it in half. It is much more efficient to save with evasion and take zero damage (especially when multiple enemies are casting - which, with these mob densities, happens) than to always cut damage in half, and eat the incoming damage.

c) Will saves - the argument was that they are neglected because boots take care of FOM. Yet, harpies throw players helpless all the time, shadavers and other casters throw up symbols of stunning, I have also been commanded during the shadaver spawn before.

- No ranged capability, the argument was that bow strength is non-functional..etc, but experience with ranged consistently proves to be effective, and the damage fluctuated with my strength bonus. Losing ranged, imo, is a costly decision whatever the case maybe with bow strength at the moment.

- DPS is lower considering the use of a lower threat range cleaver with fists of iron available + the ignorance of strength from power surge + divine might. Furthermore, the loss of ranged ability becomes a DPS loss due to versatility in situations such as pillar sniping or blitz support.

- Loss of a twist and feat in support of cocoon. Heal scrolls hitting for 317 a pop + emergency LOH's + sovereign pots (these drop from gold rolls like candy) circumvent the need for such a heavy feat + twist investment.

- Your PRR is much better, but that can be easily accommodated with the 12/6/2 split if some DPS sacrifice is acceptable. Personally, I didn't do it - but a 12/6/2 can achieve comparable PRR values - and still pull much further ahead in all aspects, use sireth to maintain threat range for fists of iron and PRR set bonus for instance.

those are just my thoughts on the differences between the builds given practical experience in EE stormhorns.

yynderjohn
09-10-2013, 08:51 AM
Cetus,
What would you change to get the same PRR as Carpone's build? I really like the idea of having 90 PRR and 70 evasion save and doing dps :)

Cetus
09-10-2013, 10:44 AM
Cetus,
What would you change to get the same PRR as Carpone's build? I really like the idea of having 90 PRR and 70 evasion save and doing dps :)

It'll require some DPS sacrifice, but you can do this:

12 Master Earth Stance
24 PRR Ring (this will screw up your tactics situation if you wear dun robar/consuming darkness, or your SA if you had avithoul ring on..etc)
15 Set bonus with, say sireth or cleaver
10 Epic feat (drop completionist, ranged feat, or stunning blow if you are screwing over tactics with the prr ring)
15 Twist (Lose either brace for impact or dance of flowers, losing dance of flowers is a terrible idea in my mind because I'm a DPS guy)
15 Shintao Enhancement (this will cut into your str/tactic from kensei, ninja spy poison, and probably the third tier human con boost/healing amp tier)


91 Static PRR and still killer saves

If you REALLY wanted to...you can hit up the defender line:

15 PRR from stance and +3 saves

106 PRR

Teh_Troll
09-10-2013, 10:51 AM
106 PRR

LOL . . . as a light-armor + heavy-shield evasion tank with WORSE saves could barely get that much PRR. Hence why I abandoned it.

Turbine, your game is BROKEN! :)

Great build though Cestus, If I can find a way to make a non-terrible Horc version I might try it out.

yynderjohn
09-10-2013, 10:55 AM
It'll require some DPS sacrifice, but you can do this:

12 Master Earth Stance
24 PRR Ring (this will screw up your tactics situation if you wear dun robar/consuming darkness, or your SA if you had avithoul ring on..etc)
15 Set bonus with, say sireth or cleaver
10 Epic feat (drop completionist, ranged feat, or stunning blow if you are screwing over tactics with the prr ring)
15 Twist (Lose either brace for impact or dance of flowers, losing dance of flowers is a terrible idea in my mind because I'm a DPS guy)
15 Shintao Enhancement (this will cut into your str/tactic from kensei, ninja spy poison, and probably the third tier human con boost/healing amp tier)


91 Static PRR and still killer saves

If you REALLY wanted to...you can hit up the defender line:

15 PRR from stance and +3 saves

106 PRR

Yeah losing completionist is no issue for me lol. You have to remember that most people prob have 3-4 past lives at most on a toon.

unbongwah
09-10-2013, 10:56 AM
If you REALLY wanted to...you can hit up the defender line:

15 PRR from stance and +3 saves
You gain 10 PRR from Stalwart Defense (lvl 6 core) which you need to use defensive stance; and another 15 PRR from Imp Stalwart Defense.

Ellihor
09-10-2013, 12:54 PM
I have asked already, i think you missed it. What is bane of undead twist for?

Cetus
09-10-2013, 01:47 PM
You gain 10 PRR from Stalwart Defense (lvl 6 core) which you need to use defensive stance; and another 15 PRR from Imp Stalwart Defense.

Ah, missed that - so its another 10 on top of the projected number

so..116

Ellihor:

Bane of undeath is for turn undead, you need it for your divine might to actually have charges.

Nightmanis
09-10-2013, 03:05 PM
Ah, missed that - so its another 10 on top of the projected number

so..116

Ellihor:

Bane of undeath is for turn undead, you need it for your divine might to actually have charges.

At the cost of being immune to rage, I think.

Cetus
09-10-2013, 03:51 PM
At the cost of being immune to rage, I think.

Yea, I don't really find it necessary because I'm centered on damage (pun intended =D).

Just saying that its possible to reach a nice PRR on this very split if they wanted to, and still maintain amazing saves.

Sireth:

I just remembered that it gets a .5 W expansion as part of an upgrade, its actually looking even nicer the more I think about it - however, the AP's are insanely tight -

With my tentative AP expenditure and gear change to accommodate the planar conflux, its looking like - +2 str, -4 cha, -25% healing amp, -3 con (which is -2 fort save).

Gains: 15 PRR, Sireth use, +25% doublestrike for 10 seconds w/ 20 second cooldown, 1d4 neg level attack from top tier henshin mystic (great to augment tactics on more difficult opponents btw, looking forward to this one), 3 liberated feats, possibility of lightning mace for extra situational doublestrike...

DPS:

Sireth profile: 3.0 base + 1.5 dance + .5 Improved PA = 5d10 = 27.5 average

Esos: 2.5 + 1.5 + 5 = 4.5(2d6) = 9d6 = 31.5

So, 4 point base damage difference, but sireth gets 4 conflux. Esos is +10 versus sireth +8 and had litany, so 4-3 = 1 point toward sireth, closing the average damage by a point, = 3 dmg.

Now count the supreme good, 3d6 damage per hit = 10.5 average damage, sireth already pulls ahead.

Then add: Cloudburst, Lightning Strike, 25% doublestrike for 10 seconds every 20 seconds, 1d4 neg level attack, situational extra .5 W from badger under 50% health.

Subtract: Glancing blows on cleaves (this one sucks), and loss of 2 damage from weapon specialization. Haven't decided on a definitive feat layout with the 3 extra feats yet.

Nightmanis
09-10-2013, 04:15 PM
Yea, I don't really find it necessary because I'm centered on damage (pun intended =D).

Just saying that its possible to reach a nice PRR on this very split if they wanted to, and still maintain amazing saves.

Sireth:

I just remembered that it gets a .5 W expansion as part of an upgrade, its actually looking even nicer the more I think about it - however, the AP's are insanely tight -

With my tentative AP expenditure and gear change to accommodate the planar conflux, its looking like - +2 str, -4 cha, -25% healing amp, -3 con (which is -2 fort save).

Gains: 15 PRR, Sireth use, +25% doublestrike for 10 seconds w/ 20 second cooldown, 1d4 neg level attack from top tier henshin mystic (great to augment tactics on more difficult opponents btw, looking forward to this one), 3 liberated feats, possibility of lightning mace for extra situational doublestrike...

DPS:

Sireth profile: 3.0 base + 1.5 dance + .5 Improved PA = 5d10 = 27.5 average

Esos: 2.5 + 1.5 + 5 = 4.5(2d6) = 9d6 = 31.5

So, 4 point base damage difference, but sireth gets 4 conflux. Esos is +10 versus sireth +8 and had litany, so 4-3 = 1 point toward sireth, closing the average damage by a point, = 3 dmg.

Now count the supreme good, 3d6 damage per hit = 10.5 average damage, sireth already pulls ahead.

Then add: Cloudburst, Lightning Strike, 25% doublestrike for 10 seconds every 20 seconds, 1d4 neg level attack, situational extra .5 W from badger under 50% health.

Subtract: Glancing blows on cleaves (this one sucks), and loss of 2 damage from weapon specialization. Haven't decided on a definitive feat layout with the 3 extra feats yet.

On that note, something I wondered about today. I can't remember when Pulverizer is added into the crit range equation. If you have the Henshin +1 range and multi, and then have Pulverizer what would that make the Stout Oak stick? If it applies before the improved crit then it would be a 15-20/x4 stick with some tactical knockdown abilities. If both apply afterwards, then it would be a 17-20/x4. Either way it's still a really nice alternative weapon and a very capable toy to have in EE content when you're cleaving. Then also have whatever that top tier ability is and you might have a weapon that's utility might even out-weigh the Sireth in some situations.

tpbtoc
09-10-2013, 06:21 PM
Have you considered Warforged/Bladeforged for this build? They have nice racial enhancements like: + fortification, + HP, + tactics, +saves, + damage and also weapon attachment (+0.5 weapon damage). They also have repair amplification but im not sure it´s good enough for self healing...

Viggy
09-10-2013, 06:51 PM
Have you considered Warforged/Bladeforged for this build? They have nice racial enhancements like: + fortification, + HP, + tactics, +saves, + damage and also weapon attachment (+0.5 weapon damage). They also have repair amplification but im not sure it´s good enough for self healing...

To be honest its not worth it, the +weapon attachment isn't very good if you plan on using any scrolls. The fortification is nice with the extra con, but the human variant I am pretty sure can almost match me. And to be honest most of the time you will want +healing amp and not +repair amp, that way other divines can heal you more effectively. The best part tbh is the +saves you get and that is about it.

Edit: I also play a WF version of this build, so that is why I know some of these things :)

maddong
09-10-2013, 07:33 PM
I find it hard to not take the 15% acrobatic speed boost that stacks with haste if you are doing a staff build. But then if paladin and monk are essential it comes down to +8 psionic strength (for tactics) vs 15% perma speed boost. You could hoard titan's grip gloves to make up for the loss of fighter?

Nodoze
09-10-2013, 07:51 PM
I really like the build and thread but not sure the best way to do it on a 1st lifer... After reading the thread I came to the following thoughts that I wanted to verify...

For a first lifer starting with no gear would Sireth/Pinion be a reasonable end game target?

If so, in the short/medium term would the Villagers of Eveningstar Commendation staff 'Stout Oak Walking Stick (http://ddowiki.com/page/Stout_Oak_Walking_Stick)' be a good stand in to join raids until Sireth can be acquired? What would be a good staff to get from the AH around level 15 (until you can get the 'Stout Oak Walking Stick' at level 20 if that is a decent option)?

Would Bow of Sinew &/or Bow of the Silver Flame be a good bow until Pinion can be acquired?

Never played monk with staff & curious what action point swaps would be recommended and what stat & feat changes would you recommend for a 1st life 32 point human with a set of +5 tomes?

Since the +5 tomes won't be applied till level 19 in this first life I will likely will eat a +1/+3 Int or +2/+4 Int while leveling to max skill points in the first life. Would other tomes will be required to get any feats while leveling?

Lastly should we drop the 'Zen Archery' Feat until the Ninja Dex for damage bug is fixed and if so what would you put in it's place?

Nodoze
09-10-2013, 07:54 PM
I find it hard to not take the 15% acrobatic speed boost that stacks with haste if you are doing a staff build. But then if paladin and monk are essential it comes down to +8 psionic strength (for tactics) vs 15% perma speed boost. You could hoard titan's grip gloves to make up for the loss of fighter?I think the gloves are Exclusive so you could only carry 1. http://ddowiki.com/page/Gloves_of_Titan%27s_Grip

Cetus
09-10-2013, 08:10 PM
So I spent most of the evening playing with quarterstaffs, I respecced for it entirely and screwed around in EE stornhorns for a while.

I don't like it at all. The problem is that I spent too much time trying to do DPS rather than just...doing it.

Available "things" to do:

Momentum swing, lay waste, fists of iron, quick strike, every light casts a shadow, tensers, shadow veil, damage boost, haste boost,divine might ,power surge, rage, stunning blow, manyshot, backup boost

It got incredibly difficult to fluidly proceed with a rational attack process, I tried to keep the 25% doublestrike up as much as I can - and it requires that you land the hit, so if you miss or swing at the air you don't get it - and wait 20 seconds until you can try again. Its too much to keep track off, leaving some abilities alone, which means wasteful investment.

Furthermore, the action point situation was very unfriendly to this split. My healing amp took a major hit, and I lost 4 charisma due to loss of action boost and litany. The gear setup got crappy too, because permahaste on boots is nice - that had to go, and I suffer -2 to all my saves because of the charisma loss, and fort took another 2 point hit becuse of the con loss. Dex went odd, which was another -1 to reflex and ranged to hit. Seeker went down from 12 to 10 as well by equpping nether grasps in order to make back the profane strength. -4 charisma meant losing 2 strength which was 1 tactics.

Third, no glancing blow damage on the cleaves sucked. When fully blitzed, they become a significant source of damage and losing that isn't worthwhile.

Stout stick: With pulverizer and henshin, it becomes 17-20 x4, not 15-20. I guess having impact on tehre makes it get applied first, because then the 18 expansion came from monk and 17 from pulverizer.

Bottomline: Looks great on paper, not very good in practice. The ESOS remains my go to weapon...easily, all while retaining great healing amp, saves, and hitpoints.

cdr
09-10-2013, 08:50 PM
When even Cetus says something is too much to keep track of, you really know it's too much to keep track of.

Cetus
09-10-2013, 10:07 PM
When even Cetus says something is too much to keep track of, you really know it's too much to keep track of.

Heh, I don't claim perfect objectivity - but I tried hard. I used up most of my naga keys (except the back three, those are uncomfortable getting to) and with this split actually had to hotkey quick strike and the neg level attack to alt + 4 and alt +5. I already have 1/2/3 as my earth attacks and iron fist, and alt + 1, alt +2, and alt + 3 as my haste boost/ damage boost/ power surge. 4 and 5 are momentum swing and lay waste. 7/8 are heal scroll + amp stick equip/use and 9 is divine might, alt + 9 is backup damage boost, top button shadow veil. Now, I have alt 4 and alt 5 too....

After a couple days, probably would've gotten it down, even after about an hour I kinda had it semi-instinct; but the losses I incurred building for it are always going to be there, whereas the benefits I need to work for and don't always get to enjoy (quick strike for instance if it misses or whatever). Meh, not worthwhile.

Cetus
09-10-2013, 10:22 PM
Update:

Threw in a short EE end of the road zerg video

djl
09-11-2013, 02:00 AM
So I spent most of the evening playing with quarterstaffs, I respecced for it entirely and screwed around in EE stornhorns for a while.

I don't like it at all. The problem is that I spent too much time trying to do DPS rather than just...doing it.

Available "things" to do:

Momentum swing, lay waste, fists of iron, quick strike, every light casts a shadow, tensers, shadow veil, damage boost, haste boost,divine might ,power surge, rage, stunning blow, manyshot, backup boost

It got incredibly difficult to fluidly proceed with a rational attack process, I tried to keep the 25% doublestrike up as much as I can - and it requires that you land the hit, so if you miss or swing at the air you don't get it - and wait 20 seconds until you can try again. Its too much to keep track off, leaving some abilities alone, which means wasteful investment.

Furthermore, the action point situation was very unfriendly to this split. My healing amp took a major hit, and I lost 4 charisma due to loss of action boost and litany. The gear setup got crappy too, because permahaste on boots is nice - that had to go, and I suffer -2 to all my saves because of the charisma loss, and fort took another 2 point hit becuse of the con loss. Dex went odd, which was another -1 to reflex and ranged to hit. Seeker went down from 12 to 10 as well by equpping nether grasps in order to make back the profane strength. -4 charisma meant losing 2 strength which was 1 tactics.

Third, no glancing blow damage on the cleaves sucked. When fully blitzed, they become a significant source of damage and losing that isn't worthwhile.

Stout stick: With pulverizer and henshin, it becomes 17-20 x4, not 15-20. I guess having impact on tehre makes it get applied first, because then the 18 expansion came from monk and 17 from pulverizer.

Bottomline: Looks great on paper, not very good in practice. The ESOS remains my go to weapon...easily, all while retaining great healing amp, saves, and hitpoints.

I am curious about your heal amp-- I didn't see any amp boosting items in your gearset, so, is the only amp you have the 30% from enhancements and 10% from ship?

Nightmanis
09-11-2013, 05:34 AM
The last one you posted where you were pure was a bit more impressive than the video you just posted, however that's also because your playstyle was completely different as well. Here you were just doing a fast run while there it was a full on smackdown blitzing setup.

That being said, it's definitely working out very well even if you aren't blitzing :D

Wizza
09-11-2013, 06:22 AM
Heh, I don't claim perfect objectivity - but I tried hard. I used up most of my naga keys (except the back three, those are uncomfortable getting to) and with this split actually had to hotkey quick strike and the neg level attack to alt + 4 and alt +5. I already have 1/2/3 as my earth attacks and iron fist, and alt + 1, alt +2, and alt + 3 as my haste boost/ damage boost/ power surge. 4 and 5 are momentum swing and lay waste. 7/8 are heal scroll + amp stick equip/use and 9 is divine might, alt + 9 is backup damage boost, top button shadow veil. Now, I have alt 4 and alt 5 too....

Not even my Sorc uses so many hotkeys.

Soulfurnace
09-11-2013, 06:27 AM
Momentum swing, lay waste, fists of iron, quick strike, every light casts a shadow, tensers, shadow veil, damage boost, haste boost,divine might ,power surge, rage, stunning blow, manyshot, backup boost

It got incredibly difficult to fluidly proceed with a rational attack process, I tried to keep the 25% doublestrike up as much as I can - and it requires that you land the hit, so if you miss or swing at the air you don't get it - and wait 20 seconds until you can try again. Its too much to keep track off, leaving some abilities alone, which means wasteful investment.
I kinda saw this coming. Doing it on a cleric while healing 400 hp first lifers in EE was a unique experience - it's never happening again.

Nodoze
09-11-2013, 07:56 AM
I am curious about your heal amp-- I didn't see any amp boosting items in your gearset, so, is the only amp you have the 30% from enhancements and 10% from ship?I believe he built a triple positive "heal amp stick" in the Vale that gives all the gear/item 30/20/10% bonuses (likely a Kama to remain centered) and has a weapon set to equip "heal scroll + amp stick" & then uses the scroll and then re-equips his main weapon. I think that is in part why he jumps out of combat to heal and uses that pause to check/reapply his buffs from time to time.

Cetus
09-11-2013, 08:13 AM
I am curious about your heal amp-- I didn't see any amp boosting items in your gearset, so, is the only amp you have the 30% from enhancements and 10% from ship?

Nah, don't need any really. I don't really depend on a healer, so the occasional heal I do receive from one is already amped by 15% past life, 30% enhancements, and 10% ship buff - which is plenty for a heal spell - its not like they'll throw a cure light wounds on me when I'm pinched.

When I heal myself, instead of equipping a heal scroll, I equip a weapon set with a heal scroll and a 10/20/30 kama, no difference in the time it takes to heal, but I get max amp during my self heals - so 317 a scroll is what I get (can actually be 333 if I throw a point into first shintao core, but meh)

cdr
09-11-2013, 09:56 AM
I see some other weapons on your bar... do you ever use them?

djl
09-11-2013, 02:26 PM
If I were to take my 6th level of Monk at 20 instead of 19 (so that I could take my 2nd pally level earlier and boost my saves), would that screw anything up?

Sokól
09-11-2013, 04:28 PM
Update:

Threw in a short EE end of the road zerg video

Gratz really nice thx for sharing :)

Edit: It is nice to land on the spikes and take no dmg now :cool:

Cetus
09-12-2013, 05:41 AM
If I were to take my 6th level of Monk at 20 instead of 19 (so that I could take my 2nd pally level earlier and boost my saves), would that screw anything up?

Nope, it makes no difference. As long as you can spend the level6 monk feat on zen archery, you're good to go.

Nodoze
09-12-2013, 09:48 AM
Nope, it makes no difference. As long as you can spend the level6 monk feat on zen archery, you're good to go.Is the Ninja Spy dex to damage bug still overiding Strength for centered weapons hurting ranged damage? Do the benefits of being centered with Bow way off set the loss of Strength to bow damage or would it be better to skip zen archery for now until this is fixed?

Cetus
09-12-2013, 04:32 PM
OP Updated:

Screenshot of EE What Goes Up: Flawless Solo, no re-entries, no store items of any kind...etc

This was amazingly fun and amazingly difficult - I conserved boosts the best I can, and I still went dry throughout the end fight - manyshot was ridiculously useful.

Drwaz99
09-12-2013, 04:39 PM
Nice job man! So sick!

noble_pirate
09-13-2013, 04:16 AM
Gratz, very impressive solo WGU for melee!

p.s. sad that my guildie didn't made screens of his flawless solo ee wgu 10 days ago by his monkcher )) and he dropped game for a time after that

Stealthbr121
09-13-2013, 10:12 AM
With dexterity so low, wouldn't bow to-hit suffer quite a lot?

Roland_D'Arabel
09-13-2013, 01:27 PM
Really like this build. U19 killed the last enjoyment I was getting out of my 18 barb 2 fighter and am going to switch him around after 7 years. I am thinking the best way would be to LR +20 him into fighter 20, do an alignment change and then LR +5 and LR +3 to take the monk and pally levels.

Kind of complicated, anyone see a better way to do this?

Souless
09-13-2013, 03:30 PM
Really like this build. U19 killed the last enjoyment I was getting out of my 18 barb 2 fighter and am going to switch him around after 7 years. I am thinking the best way would be to LR +20 him into fighter 20, do an alignment change and then LR +5 and LR +3 to take the monk and pally levels.

Kind of complicated, anyone see a better way to do this?

There isn't realistically....

BTW just for the purpose of bytchin out Cetus, I am gonna post my f-up!!

So, Start build: Buy alignment change 595 TP. Cross fingers and start the +20 LR.....
1st feat selected.....Weapon focus range, 2nd feat...hmm Rapid shot (tryn to get my ranged stuff outta the way). 3rd feat...hmm guess this one doesn't matter.....PA....AND HERE IS MY F-UP....there is no way to go back. In order to optimize the build feats for all of you out there like me who can't build worth a ****...REMEMBER THE FOLLOWING: monk feats MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST BE: POWER ATTACK, TWO HANDED FIGHTING, & ZEN ARCHERY....otherwise you are gonna loose something because of all the other garbage the Devs call Monk Feats!!!

So now I get to sit on the shelf for a week until I can fix the problem....

So, perhaps instead of listing the feats, a progression woulda helped an idiot like myself....thank you

So Cetus, all you have managed to do was delay ur nerf 1 week....this build is as good as made...Nerf to follow ;)

The Bytcher~

Cetus
09-13-2013, 10:09 PM
There isn't realistically....

BTW just for the purpose of bytchin out Cetus, I am gonna post my f-up!!

So, Start build: Buy alignment change 595 TP. Cross fingers and start the +20 LR.....
1st feat selected.....Weapon focus range, 2nd feat...hmm Rapid shot (tryn to get my ranged stuff outta the way). 3rd feat...hmm guess this one doesn't matter.....PA....AND HERE IS MY F-UP....there is no way to go back. In order to optimize the build feats for all of you out there like me who can't build worth a ****...REMEMBER THE FOLLOWING: monk feats MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST BE: POWER ATTACK, TWO HANDED FIGHTING, & ZEN ARCHERY....otherwise you are gonna loose something because of all the other garbage the Devs call Monk Feats!!!

So now I get to sit on the shelf for a week until I can fix the problem....

So, perhaps instead of listing the feats, a progression woulda helped an idiot like myself....thank you

So Cetus, all you have managed to do was delay ur nerf 1 week....this build is as good as made...Nerf to follow ;)

The Bytcher~

Bah you nub

I have the monk designations written next to those three feats!

Souless
09-13-2013, 11:34 PM
Bah you nub

I have the monk designations written next to those three feats!

I had it all wrote out somehow I missed the monk on PA....ghhhhh

The Bytcher ~

cdr
09-15-2013, 12:33 AM
Do you ever swap out eSOS to bypass DR, or just power through always? Same thing with Pinion?

djl
09-15-2013, 04:26 PM
How does the math work for the crit range?

Does it go 18-20 base, then your reduction bonuses from Keen Edge/Fists of Iron, THEN your Improved Critical feat? So 18-20 minus two, so 16-20, which is a 4 crit range, doubled for the feat, is 8? Meaning 12-20?

Cetus
09-15-2013, 06:35 PM
Do you ever swap out eSOS to bypass DR, or just power through always? Same thing with Pinion?

I swap em out if I have multiple weapons, I went with a damaging augment first since I seldom encounter stuff with DR, if I get a second one - I'll slot good on it or something.


How does the math work for the crit range?

Does it go 18-20 base, then your reduction bonuses from Keen Edge/Fists of Iron, THEN your Improved Critical feat? So 18-20 minus two, so 16-20, which is a 4 crit range, doubled for the feat, is 8? Meaning 12-20?

Almost

So its 18-20 base, and the fighter alacrity adds to it before improved critical applies. So its 17-20 ---> 13-20. Fists of Iron adds one more on top of that, at the end making it 12-20.

If you double 16-20, you'd get 11-20.

djl
09-16-2013, 12:09 AM
I swap em out if I have multiple weapons, I went with a damaging augment first since I seldom encounter stuff with DR, if I get a second one - I'll slot good on it or something.



Almost

So its 18-20 base, and the fighter alacrity adds to it before improved critical applies. So its 17-20 ---> 13-20. Fists of Iron adds one more on top of that, at the end making it 12-20.

If you double 16-20, you'd get 11-20.

My mistake was that I was not including the 17 into my math. 17, 18, 19, 20 is 4, so x2 is 8. 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.

Also, I wonder how good that neg level aug will be. Theoretically, it would be pretty nice for EE content as 1 neg level can be several thousand HP. But, only 5% chance.

Nightmanis
09-16-2013, 04:20 PM
My mistake was that I was not including the 17 into my math. 17, 18, 19, 20 is 4, so x2 is 8. 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.

Also, I wonder how good that neg level aug will be. Theoretically, it would be pretty nice for EE content as 1 neg level can be several thousand HP. But, only 5% chance.

Excuse me wait WHAT??

Kyodaemon
09-16-2013, 04:53 PM
First off, some really great discussion here on the merits of saves/CC for newer EEs, especially as people highlight the different directions between Carpone's and this build.

Massive thank yous, as ever, to Cetus for the work on this so far.

Attempting to convert this into something vaguely useful for a First life build is incredibly difficult however (Assuming gear can be farmed regardless)


I'm guessing the ranged component goes out of the window for a 32 point build - shall we assume +4 Tomes max? I lose track of what is "easy" to obtain anymore.


How viable does this look without the PLs and +5 Tomes, perhaps dedicating more feats and build points to higher saves and Stunning Blow DC? I'm really not keen to go for ranged on a non-Fury build at this time. Personal preference of course, but I'm keen to see just how close a first life can get to this builds power. I see the 15% heal amp/3 tactics as being the main loss, which are pretty much irreplaceable? :(


On another note.. <3 that Augment. I fear it'll make TWF w/max Doublestrike the new pursuit for trash killing however

Daneell
09-17-2013, 05:08 AM
Hi,

Could someone with a knowledge please post a leveling template (with classes and feats - ability and feat Prerequisites taken in consideration) ?

I will be trying out this build - as the 3rd life - starting level 1.

djl
09-17-2013, 05:21 PM
Hi,

Could someone with a knowledge please post a leveling template (with classes and feats - ability and feat Prerequisites taken in consideration) ?

I will be trying out this build - as the 3rd life - starting level 1.


The follow conditions must be met, if you follow the stat build layout here of 18 strength, 12 dex, 14 con, 8 wis, 8 int, and 16 charisma:

Your first two levels of monk need to be taken early (ideally, at 1 and 2 so you have evasion your whole life) because you have to use those two monk feats for Power Attack and THF, which are both prerequisites for other abilities (Cleave/Great Cleave and ITHF/GTHF, respectively). And your 19th or 20th levels must be fighter and monk, does not matter what order. This is because you rely on +5 tomes applying at level 19 to meet feat requirements for Manyshot and Zen Archery. Manyshot will be your last fighter bonus feat at 12 fighter, and Zen Archery will be your third monk bonus feat at 6 monk. I do not believe it matters if you take fighter or monk first at those levels, as long as your last level of fighter and monk falls on either of those levels.

I built it slightly different as I chose to not involve the manyshot aspect until I get a decent bow, but I screwed it up by taking my fighter levels too early. I have 18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 8 wis, 8 int, and 15 cha. I would be okay lessering to feat swap for the ranger feats, if I left my stats the same. But, if I wanted to do the exact build Cetus used with 16 cha and 12 dex (which, I do once I get a +6 charisma tome), I would have to use a +3 heart to swap my 12th fighter level with my 4th or 5th monk level, so that I can satisfy the 19 and 20 requirements.

Cetus
09-21-2013, 11:50 AM
(which, I do once I get a +6 charisma tome), I would have to use a +3 heart to swap my 12th fighter level with my 4th or 5th monk level, so that I can satisfy the 19 and 20 requirements.

I'd advise against getting the +6 charisma tome, get the +6 strength tome instead and just bring your strength down from 18 --> 17 if you want to pump your charisma.

TheLegendOfAra
09-21-2013, 08:51 PM
Hey Cetussssssssssssssssss, I wanted to get your opinion on something;

I've got this idea for my next Ranger life, inspired somewhat by your build here. So far I'm looking at a 14Ranger/4Pali/2Monk split, going TWF instead of THF.

Now, my questions are concerning the pali levels. I'm looking at a 40 Charisma fully buffed, as of right now. 42 if I ever get Yugo pots.
Is this worth adding to my build? I believe it would be, but I've yet to actually play a Pali of any kind so I'm not too sure how well it would work in practical use.

I'll also be running about a 48-52 str depending on how much of my gear I feel like redoing. Given this, if I splashed 2 Fighter instead of 2 Monk, would it be possible to get a workable stunning blow DC for EE's? I would expect to drop it by the time I get to level 28(Since at that point it would be better to be dual wielding Balizarde than the Drow Khopesh I'll be using.), but up to that point?

Is it worth getting more than the 1 LOH the split gives? I can put 4 AP into the Defender tree and grab 3 extra LOH's. But again, I'm not sure exactly how these work; Are the affected by pos spellpower? How effective would they be with only 4 Pali levels? What about heal amp?

Anyways, thanks. My guinea pig for this build(Prep) thanks you as well. :p

~Ara

Ayseifn
09-21-2013, 09:03 PM
Is it worth getting more than the 1 LOH the split gives? I can put 4 AP into the Defender tree and grab 3 extra LOH's. But again, I'm not sure exactly how these work; Are the affected by pos spellpower? How effective would they be with only 4 Pali levels? What about heal amp?

~Ara

( 10 + Paladin level ) x Charisma modifier, so 224 for your /4 pally with 42 cha before amp. Healing amp, pally levels and charisma are the only things that affect it.

TheLegendOfAra
09-21-2013, 09:11 PM
( 10 + Paladin level ) x Charisma modifier, so 224 for your /4 pally with 42 cha before amp. Healing amp, pally levels and charisma are the only things that affect it.

Oh, thanks! I guess It's alright then.. Although I'm not sure now if I should bother putting the points there or putting the in the Tempest/AA trees instead. Although, I'm looking at quite a bit of amp, so...Hmm.

Cetus
09-22-2013, 04:40 PM
Hey Cetussssssssssssssssss, I wanted to get your opinion on something;

I've got this idea for my next Ranger life, inspired somewhat by your build here. So far I'm looking at a 14Ranger/4Pali/2Monk split, going TWF instead of THF.

Now, my questions are concerning the pali levels. I'm looking at a 40 Charisma fully buffed, as of right now. 42 if I ever get Yugo pots.
Is this worth adding to my build? I believe it would be, but I've yet to actually play a Pali of any kind so I'm not too sure how well it would work in practical use.

I'll also be running about a 48-52 str depending on how much of my gear I feel like redoing. Given this, if I splashed 2 Fighter instead of 2 Monk, would it be possible to get a workable stunning blow DC for EE's? I would expect to drop it by the time I get to level 28(Since at that point it would be better to be dual wielding Balizarde than the Drow Khopesh I'll be using.), but up to that point?

Is it worth getting more than the 1 LOH the split gives? I can put 4 AP into the Defender tree and grab 3 extra LOH's. But again, I'm not sure exactly how these work; Are the affected by pos spellpower? How effective would they be with only 4 Pali levels? What about heal amp?

Anyways, thanks. My guinea pig for this build(Prep) thanks you as well. :p

~Ara

Hey,

So..why are you going with 14 ranger? Forget FOM spell, and instead just move up 4 monk so you can acquire ninja poison DOT and no mercy tiers if you find AP's for it. But..at that point you might as well just sacrifice a turn undead twist, drop to 2 pally and go 6 monk for 2 extra feats (since adept is free now) and pick up shadow fade as well.

Your stunning blow will probably be good enough for casters, and maybe assassins, but it won't be good enough to reliably get orcs or giants.

As far as LOH goes, I'm sitting with one as an emergency for now. If you can get more in via the defender line, do it if you can program it as an "oh sh!t" button, but the AP will most likely be better spent elsewhere.

TheLegendOfAra
09-22-2013, 05:28 PM
Hey,

So..why are you going with 14 ranger? Forget FOM spell, and instead just move up 4 monk so you can acquire ninja poison DOT and no mercy tiers if you find AP's for it. But..at that point you might as well just sacrifice a turn undead twist, drop to 2 pally and go 6 monk for 2 extra feats (since adept is free now) and pick up shadow fade as well.

Your stunning blow will probably be good enough for casters, and maybe assassins, but it won't be good enough to reliably get orcs or giants.

As far as LOH goes, I'm sitting with one as an emergency for now. If you can get more in via the defender line, do it if you can program it as an "oh sh!t" button, but the AP will most likely be better spent elsewhere.

Well, FOM was part of it, but a EMp:heal/quickened CSW was also a large reason for 14 Ranger. Not needed, but I was thinking to make a Ranger version of the Pyrene, well, a TWF version anyways. The main thing I'm taking from your build is the idea to add DM on a non Cha based class and make it truly effective.

I've considered a deeper Monk splash but unless I'm mistaken I can't use the Ninja poison DOT, and the forms unless I'm centered. Which would designate using Shortsword, or going WSS. Shortsword route wouldn't be to day, but I think it would be too similar to what I had last life, and I was looking for something a bit different. I'm just looking for function within the flavor. Lol Plus when Prep asked for the build he wanted something that could self heal.

Well, that's better than I expected. I was guessing that it would work up till EEGH, but would fall off when facing the higher fort mobs like Giants and Hobgoblins. Haven't played a toon with Stunning Blow yet past level 20 so wasn't too sure what was effective and what was not.

I'll keep that in mind; probably start out with 4 see how that goes, and drop 1 or 2 if they're not as useful as they seem.

Cetus
09-22-2013, 05:57 PM
Well, FOM was part of it, but a EMp:heal/quickened CSW was also a large reason for 14 Ranger. Not needed, but I was thinking to make a Ranger version of the Pyrene, well, a TWF version anyways. The main thing I'm taking from your build is the idea to add DM on a non Cha based class and make it truly effective.

I've considered a deeper Monk splash but unless I'm mistaken I can't use the Ninja poison DOT, and the forms unless I'm centered. Which would designate using Shortsword, or going WSS. Shortsword route wouldn't be to day, but I think it would be too similar to what I had last life, and I was looking for something a bit different. I'm just looking for function within the flavor. Lol Plus when Prep asked for the build he wanted something that could self heal.

Well, that's better than I expected. I was guessing that it would work up till EEGH, but would fall off when facing the higher fort mobs like Giants and Hobgoblins. Haven't played a toon with Stunning Blow yet past level 20 so wasn't too sure what was effective and what was not.

I'll keep that in mind; probably start out with 4 see how that goes, and drop 1 or 2 if they're not as useful as they seem.

Well, the main difference is 4 tactics from power surge and 3 enhancement = 7. If you pick up epic tactician and use titan grip gloves sometimes then you can close 5 of those points.

If you don't have triple fighter past lives however, then you're screwed.

In any case, once titan grips run out you won't have it perfect, but some of the time it'll land. You'll never get an orc or a gaint. Thats what I meant.

Maybe pick up a race that gives you a tactics line to compensate for the loss of fighter tactics.

TheLegendOfAra
09-22-2013, 07:13 PM
Well, the main difference is 4 tactics from power surge and 3 enhancement = 7. If you pick up epic tactician and use titan grip gloves sometimes then you can close 5 of those points.
If you don't have triple fighter past lives however, then you're screwed.
In any case, once titan grips run out you won't have it perfect, but some of the time it'll land. You'll never get an orc or a gaint. Thats what I meant.
Maybe pick up a race that gives you a tactics line to compensate for the loss of fighter tactics.

Well, depending on how I do my enhancements, I could pick up 2 more Str from Tempest tree for +1, Epic Tactician for +2, and instead of splashing monk I could splash 2 fighter; that would give me fighter tactics. So that would make up 6 points+ Titan's Grip when it's active.(Although Titan's doesn't really seem worth the effort just for the stuns and would probably be better used with manyshot..)

I've been on the fence about 2 Monk vs 2 Fighter splash.

The main difference would be 5% Heal Amp, 10 Positive Spellpower, 2 Sneak Attack die, 2% Dodge from Monk splash.
+1 To hit, +3 Action Boosts, +3 Tactics.

Monk seems to be the better deal, but +3 Tactics and +3 Actions boosts look really nice.

Cetus
09-22-2013, 07:24 PM
Well, depending on how I do my enhancements, I could pick up 2 more Str from Tempest tree for +1, Epic Tactician for +2, and instead of splashing monk I could splash 2 fighter; that would give me fighter tactics. So that would make up 6 points+ Titan's Grip when it's active.(Although Titan's doesn't really seem worth the effort just for the stuns and would probably be better used with manyshot..)

I've been on the fence about 2 Monk vs 2 Fighter splash.

The main difference would be 5% Heal Amp, 10 Positive Spellpower, 2 Sneak Attack die, 2% Dodge from Monk splash.
+1 To hit, +3 Action Boosts, +3 Tactics.

Monk seems to be the better deal, but +3 Tactics and +3 Actions boosts look really nice.

yea its kind've a coin toss, except I value evasion (I'm shocked at myself for this, evasion was always overrated in my mind until this new stuff) in EE endgame stuff, ice elly otilukes suck, and with the pally levels you'll have a pretty sexy reflex save.

TheLegendOfAra
09-22-2013, 07:35 PM
yea its kind've a coin toss, except I value evasion (I'm shocked at myself for this, evasion was always overrated in my mind until this new stuff) in EE endgame stuff, ice elly otilukes suck, and with the pally levels you'll have a pretty sexy reflex save.

Well, I get Evasion at Ranger level 9, so theres that.

Cetus
09-22-2013, 10:37 PM
Well, I get Evasion at Ranger level 9, so theres that.

oh yea

brain fart

TheLegendOfAra
09-22-2013, 11:00 PM
oh yea

brain fart

Heh, you'd be surprised how many people either forget, or just simply don't know that.
I've seen 18/2 builds that people make to splash for evasion. /facepalm

Soulfurnace
09-22-2013, 11:12 PM
I've seen 18/2 builds that people make to splash for evasion. /facepalm
All the time. I don't even try reason with them any more, I just smile and say enjoy :\

djl
09-24-2013, 12:57 AM
I have another question:

Say you weren't going to involve manyshot-- if you were to take 6 monk at level 18, would you be able to pick up Master of Forms at 18 as well?

dxtr10101
09-24-2013, 11:08 AM
I am looking this over and wondering what your breakdown is to hit 40 UMD for heal scrolls.

I might be missing something but not being a class skill kinda hurts doesn't it?

Andoris
09-24-2013, 12:26 PM
I am looking this over and wondering what your breakdown is to hit 40 UMD for heal scrolls.

I might be missing something but not being a class skill kinda hurts doesn't it?

Here is his likely UMD: 47 to 49 (11 ranks +8 epic levels +3 Competence Skills (Bunny hat) +2 luck +4 morale (Greater Heroism) +1 profane (spider mask), +15 (unbuffed) or 17 (buffed) charisma modifier +2 completionist +1 arty past life)

Additional boosts could come from skill tomes (+1 or +2) and the fire finisher (+2). Not that there is any need for this build to use them, but there is 9 more potential points available between Enhancement items (epic spyglass, epic top hat) and Exceptional items (Green steel).

Viggy
09-24-2013, 12:26 PM
I am looking this over and wondering what your breakdown is to hit 40 UMD for heal scrolls.

I might be missing something but not being a class skill kinda hurts doesn't it?

I would imagine it is something like this

11 Ranks
17 Stat
2 Good lucky
4 GH
1 Mask
2 If light monk fire finisher
37 Right there, multiple ways to get that last +3 especially for human.

Edit: Forgot Epic skill, which I believe gives 8 more? I could be wrong on this.

djl
09-24-2013, 01:22 PM
I have another question:

Say you weren't going to involve manyshot-- if you were to take 6 monk at level 18, would you be able to pick up Master of Forms at 18 as well?

Anybody know the answer to this? I need to know before I bite the bullet and use a lesser heart.

Andoris
09-24-2013, 01:34 PM
Anybody know the answer to this? I need to know before I bite the bullet and use a lesser heart.

Yes you can (I did it the other day), but you need to use the general feat for it. Master of Forms is not a monk feat.

Cetus
09-26-2013, 11:31 AM
I am looking this over and wondering what your breakdown is to hit 40 UMD for heal scrolls.

I might be missing something but not being a class skill kinda hurts doesn't it?
I'm sitting at a 49 UMD buffed, this doesn't include any UMD +3 item nor a skills item.

11 Ranks

17 Mod (44 cha)

3 Arti Past life

2 completionist

8 epic

1 spider cult

1 Tome

4 gh

2 luck
_____________________

49

If you want, +3 bunny hat or spare hand

+6 skills
__________________________

58

Emerge2012
09-26-2013, 11:50 AM
This build has evolved nicely since the original post was made. That badly needed to happen of course.

The issue I have with a build like this is it's mostly bs. 99.99% of the playing community would never even begin to put this much real money into the game. All the tomes, the paid for gear, the awful expansion, the million+ hours of time spent.

A build like this with a huge thread that has followed should absolutely be the epitome of what P2W can get you. Unfortunately there are many other builds that are better and far more time/cost effective which really makes this the epitome of P2S, Pay 2 Stagnate.

Cetus
09-26-2013, 04:16 PM
This build has evolved nicely since the original post was made. That badly needed to happen of course.

The issue I have with a build like this is it's mostly bs. 99.99% of the playing community would never even begin to put this much real money into the game. All the tomes, the paid for gear, the awful expansion, the million+ hours of time spent.

A build like this with a huge thread that has followed should absolutely be the epitome of what P2W can get you. Unfortunately there are many other builds that are better and far more time/cost effective which really makes this the epitome of P2S, Pay 2 Stagnate.

Evidence for your P2W claims would strengthen your position, you have provided none other than the expansion - which is generic to any build created in light of the most recent additions; and thus isn't specific to this build at all.

The current player density observed within endgame suggests that a lot more than 00.01% of the community payed for the expansion. That is the only aspect of this build that required any monetary investment.

Which builds are better? Let alone the "many", mind you.

Charononus
09-26-2013, 04:23 PM
This build has evolved nicely since the original post was made. That badly needed to happen of course.

The issue I have with a build like this is it's mostly bs. 99.99% of the playing community would never even begin to put this much real money into the game. All the tomes, the paid for gear, the awful expansion, the million+ hours of time spent.

A build like this with a huge thread that has followed should absolutely be the epitome of what P2W can get you. Unfortunately there are many other builds that are better and far more time/cost effective which really makes this the epitome of P2S, Pay 2 Stagnate.

Name a better fighter build. Seriously nothing in the base is p2w as tomes do in fact drop and aren't store only. Time cost yes omg a player that's played for a long time has better stuff, doesn't that just kind of make sense? Sure does to me.

TheLegendOfAra
09-26-2013, 04:29 PM
This build has evolved nicely since the original post was made. That badly needed to happen of course.

The issue I have with a build like this is it's mostly bs. 99.99% of the playing community would never even begin to put this much real money into the game. All the tomes, the paid for gear, the awful expansion, the million+ hours of time spent.

A build like this with a huge thread that has followed should absolutely be the epitome of what P2W can get you. Unfortunately there are many other builds that are better and far more time/cost effective which really makes this the epitome of P2S, Pay 2 Stagnate.

I'm beginning to notice you are one of the most ignorant posters on these forums; and that's really, really saying something.
You genuinely have no idea what-so-ever what it is you're talking about, do you?

How is anything about this build P2W?
What was purchased with RL money, with the exception of Expansions/VIP?
What other builds are better? How are they more time/cost effective?

I'd also like to point out the idea of Cetusssssss, P2Wing DDO is pretty hilarious.
I mean, sure he sucks at DDO, but he still had 30 lives done on his Fighter before Otto's ever came out. ;p

Charononus
09-26-2013, 04:34 PM
I mean, sure he sucks at DDO, but he still had 30 lives done on his Fighter before Otto's ever came out. ;p

I'm pretty sure I saw him listing completionist before bravery bonus came out.

TheLegendOfAra
09-26-2013, 04:39 PM
I'm pretty sure I saw him listing completionist before bravery bonus came out.

Heh Way before bravery bonus.

Cetussssss, Star, Tink, and all the others.. It's sad how easy getting past lives has become now compared to when they first started grinding them out. And now you have threads about how horrible it is your can't get completionist in 2 weeks with Otto's boxes... /smh

Nightmanis
09-26-2013, 04:47 PM
This build has evolved nicely since the original post was made. That badly needed to happen of course.

The issue I have with a build like this is it's mostly bs. 99.99% of the playing community would never even begin to put this much real money into the game. All the tomes, the paid for gear, the awful expansion, the million+ hours of time spent.

A build like this with a huge thread that has followed should absolutely be the epitome of what P2W can get you. Unfortunately there are many other builds that are better and far more time/cost effective which really makes this the epitome of P2S, Pay 2 Stagnate.

I'm just going to say this.

He is a Chaosknight. He did not pay to win. Instead, he ran with a group of some of the best players on any server. And of them, he is among the best of them.

If you want proof of how good he is, he has videos.

If you want to call it anything, call it Strategic Coordination and Diligence to Win. SCD2W.

TheLegendOfAra
09-26-2013, 04:53 PM
Strategic Coordination and Diligence to Win. SCD2W.

Toooo long. Lol

Hawkwier
09-26-2013, 05:10 PM
This build has evolved nicely since the original post was made. That badly needed to happen of course.

The issue I have with a build like this is it's mostly bs. 99.99% of the playing community would never even begin to put this much real money into the game. All the tomes, the paid for gear, the awful expansion, the million+ hours of time spent.

A build like this with a huge thread that has followed should absolutely be the epitome of what P2W can get you. Unfortunately there are many other builds that are better and far more time/cost effective which really makes this the epitome of P2S, Pay 2 Stagnate.

Quick!

I think someone needs an envy enema! :)

Charononus
09-26-2013, 05:19 PM
deleting just in case.

Cetus
09-26-2013, 05:23 PM
I appreciate the kind words, however at the risk of thread closure, please don't exacerbate the issue.

Thanks

MarretaBlack
09-26-2013, 05:36 PM
Hi Cetus,
I have a doubt! As you Remained centered using the ESOS?







I appreciate the kind words, however at the risk of thread closure, please don't exacerbate the issue.

Thanks

Drwaz99
09-26-2013, 05:39 PM
Hi Cetus,
I have a doubt! As you Remained centered using the ESOS?

In the new Kensai Fighter enhancements allow you to remain centered while using your chosen subset of weapons.

Bridge_Dweller
09-26-2013, 11:09 PM
. . . battle divines offer a level of survivability that's unmatched while still offering top tier dps.

I just spit beer all over my keyboard.

You had the makings of a pretty decent troll, then you said this.

Charononus
09-26-2013, 11:16 PM
Haha. What else needs to be said for this? Boss says to tone it down you better listen and get back to working those pom poms!


It's called offering a tiny bit of respect, it's not hard, I don't know cetus at all other than looking at his build threads now and then for ideas. You should try the respect thing.

Cetus
09-26-2013, 11:19 PM
It's called offering a tiny bit of respect, it's not hard, I don't know cetus at all other than looking at his build threads now and then for ideas. You should try the respect thing.

And just to add, I tried to be polite in the request. I just don't want the thread closed over someones bs.

Thanks char.

NaturalHazard
09-26-2013, 11:29 PM
This build has evolved nicely since the original post was made. That badly needed to happen of course.

The issue I have with a build like this is it's mostly bs. 99.99% of the playing community would never even begin to put this much real money into the game. All the tomes, the paid for gear, the awful expansion, the million+ hours of time spent.

A build like this with a huge thread that has followed should absolutely be the epitome of what P2W can get you. Unfortunately there are many other builds that are better and far more time/cost effective which really makes this the epitome of P2S, Pay 2 Stagnate.

So what if it requires a fair bit? I never saw it claimed anywhere that this was a build for everyone, he shared some of his ideas and was even open to what other people had to say. I don't think I read him claiming that his was the *best* build ever. At some point it boils down to what is the best build for *you* not what is the *best* build.

+5 tomes do drop, Im just unlucky not to have any, yay for crappy skill tomes as 20th end rewards now.

lol the 6 monk is for other stuff besides evasion you know.............. the feats, adapt of forms saves another feat so you can get master of forms, 2 pally adds more than just the Cha to saves as well. It pretty much meshes pretty nicely. Only thing I dont like is I hate scroll healing, i do it on my bards but only when I feel i need to save some SP, sure I would get it on a melee if I could get the umd high enough but I would like to have cocoon and scrolls, heh even cure serious and loh if I can fit it in.

psykopeta
09-27-2013, 07:19 AM
This build has evolved nicely since the original post was made. That badly needed to happen of course.

The issue I have with a build like this is it's mostly bs. 99.99% of the playing community would never even begin to put this much real money into the game. All the tomes, the paid for gear, the awful expansion, the million+ hours of time spent.

A build like this with a huge thread that has followed should absolutely be the epitome of what P2W can get you. Unfortunately there are many other builds that are better and far more time/cost effective which really makes this the epitome of P2S, Pay 2 Stagnate.

good builds aren't f2p and recquire tomes lol
good gear isn't f2p, why would ppl get new packs then?

poor trolling is claiming that both above sentences are false, and if you aim to get TP for every pack of ddo, better don't spend time on forum and create favor runners in every server, etc etc (man that's real time/cost effective)

btw hope ur builds don't recquire tomes nor gear that isn't f2p (would be nice to see you trying to pull tomes from lod chain XDDDD) if not...well who cares? not me, i'm not trolling lol

Bridge_Dweller
09-27-2013, 09:26 AM
Only thing I dont like is I hate scroll healing, i do it on my bards but only when I feel i need to save some SP, sure I would get it on a melee if I could get the umd high enough but I would like to have cocoon and scrolls, heh even cure serious and loh if I can fit it in.

With the +8 bonus to skills from epic levels getting non-fail heal scrolls is much easier. In my case I crafted a +6 CHR-skill GS item that's also a displacement clickie (had i been smarter it could have been perma-blur). With that, GH, 14 CHR starting with a basic item, and a bunny-hat you're there.

I Pay2win'd and bought a +2 UMD tome to avoid the bunny-hat lag but that's optional. and yes, the bunny-hats are Pay2win but they are dirt cheap, I believe I got mine years ago when they were on sale at a ridiculous price for easter.

Regarding what the nay-sayer is saying: a lot of the power in this build exists between the keyboard and the chair. Do I think the typical DDO player should expect to solo EE WGU like the OP did? No, not at all.

But it's still probably the best THFing build out there. I've seen a few of the clones in action and though they aren't the god-mode that the OP's toon appears to be they are quite impressive.

NaturalHazard
09-27-2013, 09:31 AM
With the +8 bonus to skills from epic levels getting non-fail heal scrolls is much easier. In my case I crafted a +6 CHR-skill GS item that's also a displacement clickie (had i been smarter it could have been perma-blur). With that, GH, 14 CHR starting with a basic item, and a bunny-hat you're there.

I Pay2win'd and bought a +2 UMD tome to avoid the bunny-hat lag but that's optional. and yes, the bunny-hats are Pay2win but they are dirt cheap, I believe I got mine years ago when they were on sale at a ridiculous price for easter.

Regarding what the nay-sayer is saying: a lot of the power in this build exists between the keyboard and the chair. Do I think the typical DDO player should expect to solo EE WGU like the OP did? No, not at all.

But it's still probably the best THFing build out there. I've seen a few of the clones in action and though they aren't the god-mode that the OP's toon appears to be they are quite impressive.

hmm i have all that cept for the bunny hat and +2 umd tome, but my +6 cha skills is a 150 sp item, haste clickie, my hp item is smoke and displacement clickie.

Retrodark
09-28-2013, 11:42 AM
It states that it adds your charisma mod to your strength. I am still only lvl 22 and not fully geared yet, so I have a measly 29 charisma when click on divine might.

Here are my results when clicking on everything. I only have a base 40 strength atm.

Power Surge puts me at 51 strength and 35 charisma (this gives me a +12 char mod) I would expect to get 63 strength with divine might. I get 60. If I click it again I get 61. So no matter what I am at -2 from my expectation. Is this wai?

Also, how do you get 14-15 uses of power surge? The most I can get is 10 (with Verrik's).

Thanks

Takllin
09-28-2013, 04:37 PM
It states that it adds your charisma mod to your strength. I am still only lvl 22 and not fully geared yet, so I have a measly 29 charisma when click on divine might.

Here are my results when clicking on everything. I only have a base 40 strength atm.

Power Surge puts me at 51 strength and 35 charisma (this gives me a +12 char mod) I would expect to get 63 strength with divine might. I get 60. If I click it again I get 61. So no matter what I am at -2 from my expectation. Is this wai?

Also, how do you get 14-15 uses of power surge? The most I can get is 10 (with Verrik's).

Thanks
Action Boosts: 5 + 3(LD) + 3(Fighter) + 2(Veriks) = 13. I can't tell in his screenshots how much he actually has, but thats 13 right there.

How does power surge give you +11 Str, and +6 CHA?

Do you have any Insightful Strength gear slotted? Divine Might is an Insightful bonus as well and does not stack.

Osharan_Tregarth
09-28-2013, 06:10 PM
Hey Cetussssssssssssssssss, I wanted to get your opinion on something;

I've got this idea for my next Ranger life, inspired somewhat by your build here. So far I'm looking at a 14Ranger/4Pali/2Monk split, going TWF instead of THF.



~Ara

I'm sitting at 12/4/4 Ranger/Fighter/Paladin right now on Esharan. I'm reasonably satisfied with the dps and saves, and with the tempest line maxed out I basically have improved evasion as well. However, the dps is reduced from what it could be by having to put so many useless action points into the tempest line to unlock the improved evasion line.

I don't have the investment in saves that setusss does, so I was getting owned pretty hard by things in EE content that freedom would have mitigated. I'm looking next at going to 14/4/2 Ranger/Paladin/Fighter, and seeing how that works out.

I could also just aim for two paladin levels, and then twist in the turn undeads through the destiny line, but at the time I did my +20 LR, I hadn't bothered leveling the appropriate epic destiny further than tier 1. I'm still on a fence about if I want the 4 fighter levels or 4 paladin levels. But at this point I'm mainly using the fighter levels for haste boost, extra action points, and some of the lower kensai damage bonuses.

NaturalHazard
09-28-2013, 07:51 PM
I'm sitting at 12/4/4 Ranger/Fighter/Paladin right now on Esharan. I'm reasonably satisfied with the dps and saves, and with the tempest line maxed out I basically have improved evasion as well. However, the dps is reduced from what it could be by having to put so many useless action points into the tempest line to unlock the improved evasion line.

I don't have the investment in saves that setusss does, so I was getting owned pretty hard by things in EE content that freedom would have mitigated. I'm looking next at going to 14/4/2 Ranger/Paladin/Fighter, and seeing how that works out.

I could also just aim for two paladin levels, and then twist in the turn undeads through the destiny line, but at the time I did my +20 LR, I hadn't bothered leveling the appropriate epic destiny further than tier 1. I'm still on a fence about if I want the 4 fighter levels or 4 paladin levels. But at this point I'm mainly using the fighter levels for haste boost, extra action points, and some of the lower kensai damage bonuses.

do the kensei weapon focus damage enhancements stack with the tempest 2wf damage enhancements?

Osharan_Tregarth
09-28-2013, 10:44 PM
do the kensei weapon focus damage enhancements stack with the tempest 2wf damage enhancements?

I'll let you know next time I respect my enhancements! But it let me take both lines.

Retrodark
09-28-2013, 11:42 PM
Action Boosts: 5 + 3(LD) + 3(Fighter) + 2(Veriks) = 13. I can't tell in his screenshots how much he actually has, but thats 13 right there.

How does power surge give you +11 Str, and +6 CHA?

Do you have any Insightful Strength gear slotted? Divine Might is an Insightful bonus as well and does not stack.

Ah...thank you that is totally it. I have +2 Insightful Strength item. Thanks for reminding me about the +3 from LD ( I am currently in an off Destiny while leveling). I was able to see 14 or 15 for his action boosts when watching the video for soloing "End of the Road".

Power Surge gives me +8, but the human boosts then also gives me +3 str/+3 CHAR/ and +3 con. I don't know why I put in my post that I went from 29 to 35. It was really 32 to 35. I think because as I was typing it I was switching gear around and drinking yugo pots or something.

TheLegendOfAra
09-29-2013, 12:07 AM
I'm sitting at 12/4/4 Ranger/Fighter/Paladin right now on Esharan. I'm reasonably satisfied with the dps and saves, and with the tempest line maxed out I basically have improved evasion as well. However, the dps is reduced from what it could be by having to put so many useless action points into the tempest line to unlock the improved evasion line.

I don't have the investment in saves that setusss does, so I was getting owned pretty hard by things in EE content that freedom would have mitigated. I'm looking next at going to 14/4/2 Ranger/Paladin/Fighter, and seeing how that works out.

I could also just aim for two paladin levels, and then twist in the turn undeads through the destiny line, but at the time I did my +20 LR, I hadn't bothered leveling the appropriate epic destiny further than tier 1. I'm still on a fence about if I want the 4 fighter levels or 4 paladin levels. But at this point I'm mainly using the fighter levels for haste boost, extra action points, and some of the lower kensai damage bonuses.

Heh Yeah, I had considered the same thing, but improved evasion just didn't seem worth the effort. I haven't had it yet on Araphina and I've never missed it. Plus I think I'll have saves pretty close to Cetusss, so that + FOM and self heals looks pretty nice.

What would you gain from 4 Fighter levels? I hadn't considered that split at all, although I guess it would work much the same way. I mainly wanted the 4 Pali levels so that I wouldn't have to waste my twists on the turns. I'm still not 100% sure which destiny I'll spend most of my time in. I expect I'll have a few LR's once I get to cap and play around with it a bit and see what works and what doesn't, like usual.(Hell last life I had 8 LR's before I settled on my final build. hah)

Osharan_Tregarth
09-29-2013, 12:54 AM
do the kensei weapon focus damage enhancements stack with the tempest 2wf damage enhancements?

After a little testing... Dwarf 12/4/4 Ranger/Fighter/Paladin, unbuffed in any way.

THF'ing with a bonesplitter (+5) puts me at... +46 to hit.

TWF'ing with a couple of heavy maces +4/+8 puts me at +45/+49 to hit. (no oversized twf'ing). So it looks like the tempest line is making up for the penalty for no oversized twf'ing.

TWF'ing with a couple of +5 dwarven axes puts me at +54/+54 to hit.

That's with wf : slashing, 3 tiers of racial ax training, 1 for kensai focus, and 3 for kensai weapon spec.

So, as far as I can tell, they're stacking, using the "to hit" metric. Damage would be a bit more painful to figure out.

Osharan_Tregarth
09-29-2013, 01:04 AM
Heh Yeah, I had considered the same thing, but improved evasion just didn't seem worth the effort. I haven't had it yet on Araphina and I've never missed it. Plus I think I'll have saves pretty close to Cetusss, so that + FOM and self heals looks pretty nice.

What would you gain from 4 Fighter levels? I hadn't considered that split at all, although I guess it would work much the same way. I mainly wanted the 4 Pali levels so that I wouldn't have to waste my twists on the turns. I'm still not 100% sure which destiny I'll spend most of my time in. I expect I'll have a few LR's once I get to cap and play around with it a bit and see what works and what doesn't, like usual.(Hell last life I had 8 LR's before I settled on my final build. hah)

At the time, I hadn't ran much EE content, and I was hoping that the bonus to saves from the paladin levels would make up for not being able to self cast FoM.

The four fighter levels are a prereq for weapon spec: slashing, and for the third tier of kensai damage that I grabbed(fighter 3). So by going with only 2 fighter levels you're ditching +3 damage, per weapon. (Assuming that you're specializing in a particular weapon type).

You're also missing out on whatever the hell spiritual bond is supposed to be doing, since I've never managed to see any bonuses from it showing up.

For destiny lines, I'm generally running in Fury, so I don't have to worry about kill stealing. However, that's still kinda leftover from running the GH content into the ground. I should be able to swap over to dread just fine in the expansion content, I just haven't tried it yet.

EDIT: Also, the correct spelling is "Setusss". Get it right! I will also accept "Durnak".

TheLegendOfAra
09-29-2013, 02:57 AM
The four fighter levels are a prereq for weapon spec: slashing, and for the third tier of kensai damage that I grabbed(fighter 3). So by going with only 2 fighter levels you're ditching +3 damage, per weapon. (Assuming that you're specializing in a particular weapon type).

You're also missing out on whatever the hell spiritual bond is supposed to be doing, since I've never managed to see any bonuses from it showing up.

EDIT: Also, the correct spelling is "Setusss". Get it right! I will also accept "Durnak".

Hmm, good point. Certainly give me something more to consider, especially if I feel I end up needing more DPS.

Heh So I'm missing nothing there. :p

DURNAK!

Cetus
09-29-2013, 10:18 AM
I will also accept "Durnak".

Terrible!

Ellihor
09-29-2013, 11:49 AM
Why no greater weapon specialization? Im sure you can fit it there.

Cetus
09-29-2013, 11:55 AM
Why no greater weapon specialization? Im sure you can fit it there.

Can't

whereispowderedsilve
09-29-2013, 12:01 PM
Can't

/tongue in cheek Your slacking! Use a crowbar & some KY! :P! :)! Lolz!(Totally joking!)

Ellihor
09-29-2013, 12:12 PM
Can't

We miserable mortals dont have completionist ^^

Feithlin
09-29-2013, 09:31 PM
You're also missing out on whatever the hell spiritual bond is supposed to be doing, since I've never managed to see any bonuses from it showing up.


The effect bonus appears in the weapon's description (main hand only).

SerPounce
09-30-2013, 12:02 PM
Thank you for putting together this guide. I came up with a similar build for my melee, but this has been very helpful in finding ways I can improve it (particularly how to get my stunning blow working).

Right now my toon works quite well in EE, but I think getting that stunning blow really going is the first step in taking it to the next level.

I'm amazed you're able to heal so well with just scrolls. I've been using cocoon, but I'm finding the 12 sec cooldown very limiting. I Should work on my UMD also.

Once Iconic TR is introduced, what would you think of a bladeforged version that uses its reconstruct SLA for healing?

Blighty
09-30-2013, 10:25 PM
Thank you for putting together this guide. I came up with a similar build for my melee, but this has been very helpful in finding ways I can improve it (particularly how to get my stunning blow working).

Right now my toon works quite well in EE, but I think getting that stunning blow really going is the first step in taking it to the next level.

I'm amazed you're able to heal so well with just scrolls. I've been using cocoon, but I'm finding the 12 sec cooldown very limiting. I Should work on my UMD also.

Once Iconic TR is introduced, what would you think of a bladeforged version that uses its reconstruct SLA for healing?

Here is one.
Bladeforged with SLA (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/426861-Iconic-BF-14f-4p-2m-Nitro-Comments-welcome)

A bit different from this build, the original version is with pally 4, quicken, mental toughness, further down after advice from posters (i should of read this one about twists) is much more similar, but with Magical Training and Twist for Bane of Undeath and Endless Faith.

Both builds are probably less dps that this one and no ranged goodness, but would use the same gear and probably have a slightly superior defense.

Cetus
10-01-2013, 07:57 PM
Thank you for putting together this guide. I came up with a similar build for my melee, but this has been very helpful in finding ways I can improve it (particularly how to get my stunning blow working).

Right now my toon works quite well in EE, but I think getting that stunning blow really going is the first step in taking it to the next level.

I'm amazed you're able to heal so well with just scrolls. I've been using cocoon, but I'm finding the 12 sec cooldown very limiting. I Should work on my UMD also.

Once Iconic TR is introduced, what would you think of a bladeforged version that uses its reconstruct SLA for healing?

Yea, It'll work fine - but I don't find it necessary. I'd rather keep up my DPS (losing stacking human damage boost is kind've a biggy) especially since if you have good twitch skills heal scrolls w/ a large amount of amp works fine.

Blighty
10-02-2013, 03:33 AM
Yea, It'll work fine - but I don't find it necessary. I'd rather keep up my DPS (losing stacking human damage boost is kind've a biggy) especially since if you have good twitch skills heal scrolls w/ a large amount of amp works fine.

Power of the forge is a nice replacement, but not quite as ideal for max dps.

relenttless
10-02-2013, 06:30 AM
could I just say thanks to Cetus for this build and to everyone else who has contributed to this thread (with a single exception).


I am nowhere near yet to being able make full use of a build like this, but have really enjoyed the discourse and inteligent, reasoned arguement that has been quite inspiring.

Great to see top players sharing their knowledge and experience in such a modest and helpful fashion.

a good example of how usedul these forums can be, as opposed to how they usually are.


again, thanks

TheLegendOfAra
10-02-2013, 03:18 PM
Great to see top players sharing their knowledge and experience in such a modest and helpful fashion.

I call Bullsh*t. I've yet to see a top player in this thread. ;p

Cetus
10-03-2013, 03:06 PM
Power of the forge is a nice replacement, but not quite as ideal for max dps.

Oh, I completely forgot about power of the forge.

Actually, with the human versatility damage boost covered bladeforged would be a great alternative - better tactics, higher fortification, a bit more hitpoints and fortitude save and a 6 second cooldown reconstruct. Sounds solid - might look into that once we can TR into them. End up losing a feat though.

Nightmanis
10-03-2013, 09:53 PM
Oh, I completely forgot about power of the forge.

Actually, with the human versatility damage boost covered bladeforged would be a great alternative - better tactics, higher fortification, a bit more hitpoints and fortitude save and a 6 second cooldown reconstruct. Sounds solid - might look into that once we can TR into them. End up losing a feat though.

Weapon Specialization. Don't need to take it to get greater weapon focus. Yes I know it's 1 point of damage, but it's 1 point of damage.

Takllin
10-03-2013, 09:59 PM
Oh, I completely forgot about power of the forge.

Actually, with the human versatility damage boost covered bladeforged would be a great alternative - better tactics, higher fortification, a bit more hitpoints and fortitude save and a 6 second cooldown reconstruct. Sounds solid - might look into that once we can TR into them. End up losing a feat though.
Bladeforged + eSoS = Awesomeness. Been impatiently waiting til the day I can TR Jado into a Bladeforged version of what he is now.

Cetus
10-03-2013, 10:31 PM
Weapon Specialization. Don't need to take it to get greater weapon focus. Yes I know it's 1 point of damage, but it's 1 point of damage.

That feat is required to advance up the kensei tree (and its +2 to damage :cool:).

Nightmanis
10-05-2013, 12:10 AM
That feat is required to advance up the kensei tree (and its +2 to damage :cool:).

Shaddup no it doesn't >.>

Ellihor
10-12-2013, 12:47 PM
Could you do a breakdown of stats and saves? I am lv 24 and I am very far from yours.

serthcore
10-12-2013, 01:02 PM
Currently got my main to lvl 25 on a twf variant of this build. I ended up dropping icrit slash for bastard sword prof (all bastards I use have keen on it) and twf line instead of thf.
Working very good so far, scroll healing isn't an issue on a build that doesn't take so much damage thanks to high tactics and defenses.
It has no negative side, at least for me :P

Andoris
10-13-2013, 04:58 PM
Could you do a breakdown of stats and saves? I am lv 24 and I am very far from yours.

I am curious as to the breakdown as well. This is a close as I can figure out with the gear/stats as listed.

Fortitude: Image shows 76, I calculate 74 (16 base +4 epic +20 con modifier +4 morale +10 resistance item +2 luck +1 competence (stone of change) +1 Sacred (ship buff) +1 Aura +17 Divine Grace +2 Fire Finisher -4 Yugo pot). If I am not using a Yugo pot it would be 77

Reflex: Image shows 71, I calculate 69 (9 base +4 epic +14 dex modifier +4 morale +10 resistance item +2 luck +3 agility +1 competence (stone of change) +1 Sacred (ship buff) +1 Aura +17 Divine Grace +2 Fire Finisher +1 dodge (haste)

Will: Image shows 58 I show 56 with yugo, or 60 without (9 base +4 epic +9 wis modifier +4 morale +10 resistance item +2 luck +1 competence (stone of change) +1 Sacred (ship buff) +1 Aura +17 Divine Grace +2 Fire Finisher -4 yugo)

Basically, I am missing +2 to all saves somewhere but for the life of me, I can't think of what I am missing. Does Completionist grant +2 to saves too?

Cetus
10-13-2013, 05:43 PM
I am curious as to the breakdown as well. This is a close as I can figure out with the gear/stats as listed.

Fortitude: Image shows 76, I calculate 74 (16 base +4 epic +20 con modifier +4 morale +10 resistance item +2 luck +1 competence (stone of change) +1 Sacred (ship buff) +1 Aura +17 Divine Grace +2 Fire Finisher -4 Yugo pot). If I am not using a Yugo pot it would be 77

Reflex: Image shows 71, I calculate 69 (9 base +4 epic +14 dex modifier +4 morale +10 resistance item +2 luck +3 agility +1 competence (stone of change) +1 Sacred (ship buff) +1 Aura +17 Divine Grace +2 Fire Finisher +1 dodge (haste)

Will: Image shows 58 I show 56 with yugo, or 60 without (9 base +4 epic +9 wis modifier +4 morale +10 resistance item +2 luck +1 competence (stone of change) +1 Sacred (ship buff) +1 Aura +17 Divine Grace +2 Fire Finisher -4 yugo)

Basically, I am missing +2 to all saves somewhere but for the life of me, I can't think of what I am missing. Does Completionist grant +2 to saves too?

One of my twists is brace for impact, which in addiion to 40% fort gives +2 to all saves.

Andoris
10-13-2013, 06:38 PM
One of my twists is brace for impact, which in addiion to 40% fort gives +2 to all saves.

Ahh, even more reason for me to find a way to fit that twist in. Currently I am running with Cocoon in that slot, but getting really close to deciding to only live on heal scrolls and silver flame pots.

mixomatozis
10-14-2013, 12:53 AM
Yes completionist is +2 to saves (+1 from con/dex/wis and +1 from charisma)

VorpalKnight
10-17-2013, 11:35 PM
I cannot wait until we can TR into Bladeforged Paladin, should be more fun playing as the master race.

Cetus
10-18-2013, 09:09 AM
I cannot wait until we can TR into Bladeforged Paladin, should be more fun playing as the master race.

It might be, I'm still weighing out the pros and cons of the build.

Pros:

I'm still not sure how useful weapon attachment may be, that'll depend on practical experience to see if recon without scroll support keeps me up, and how often I switch to bows; the animation to use weapon attachment is ridiculously long - but without it I only need to spend 16 AP in the racial tree, which is 2 less than the human. Those extra AP's allow me to grab some other stuff in my trees - haven't decided what yet though.

Fortification - This allows me to drop brace for impact, and reacquire another twist - probably sense weakness.

Reconstruct - 6 second cooldown reconstruct allows for self-healing superior to heal scrolls

Looks - Yes, they look badass =D

Swapping docents instantly - Can use the blademark for vertigo 15

Better defenses from -10% slashing damage and fluctuating PRR

Immunities

More HP

Shaken enhancement - effective +2 to tactics DC

Cons:

Lose 5 strength versus human, 1 adaptability + 3 boost + 3 charisma boost (which throws me up 2 modifiers and thats 1 strength with divine might) = 5. The tactics are made up for, but the dps needs to be compensated for - probably by virtue of my extra twist or weapon attachment. Weapon attachment alone makes up for most of it (3 str mod = 4.5 dmg. .5 w on esos = 1d6 = 3.5 dmg)

Lose an extra feat - that will be greater two handed fighting probably. This needs to be compensated for either via the 2 extra AP somewhere, weapon attachment, or twist.

Need to accommodate repair spell power, including skill. With 25 spellpoints a reconstruct, need a nicer spellpoint pool, a bauble, and pots just in case. Pots on a melee make me cringe.

I really want quicken, ugh

maddmatt70
10-18-2013, 01:22 PM
Ever thought about the 30 second action saves boost. It is a no fail on a one. That is quickly coming to be my favorite human ability because it is so great for certain situations.

Cetus
10-18-2013, 06:21 PM
Ever thought about the 30 second action saves boost. It is a no fail on a one. That is quickly coming to be my favorite human ability because it is so great for certain situations.

Not really, its useless to me in 99% of situations because I'd much rather have all my damage boosts instead of wasting them on a saves boost, this is why this build already has super high saves - occasionally rolling a 1 won't be a matter of life and death. It's a bit wasteful AP wise as far as I'm concerned.

Wizza
10-18-2013, 06:33 PM
Looks - Yes, they look badass =D


And you dare to mock me about my Twilight...

Cetus
10-18-2013, 09:25 PM
And you dare to mock me about my Twilight...

Yes, I do. Its a nub item to use! Bladeforged will no longer be nub race to play...therefore the looks can be discussed now.

My reasoning is consistent

Soulfurnace
10-18-2013, 10:47 PM
Yes, I do. Its a nub item to use! Bladeforged will no longer be nub race to play...therefore the looks can be discussed now.

My reasoning is consistent
Completely agree.

Might even roll a bladeforged to play this... after I'm done with fighter PL's.

Ellihor
10-19-2013, 04:59 PM
How did you get that str? I could do the breakdown for other stats and saves but str i could only find 18 + 7 lv + 5 tome + 8 psionic + 1 fighter + 4 human + 17 insightful + 1 exceptional + 1 profane + 2 completionist + 2 rage + 2 yugo + 10 item + 4 tenser + 2 ship = 84. You got 86 on your screenshot, what did I miss?

Munkenmo
10-19-2013, 05:10 PM
I really want quicken, ugh

There's no concentration checks on SLA's :D

Feithlin
10-19-2013, 07:52 PM
How did you get that str? I could do the breakdown for other stats and saves but str i could only find 18 + 7 lv + 5 tome + 8 psionic + 1 fighter + 4 human + 17 insightful + 1 exceptional + 1 profane + 2 completionist + 2 rage + 2 yugo + 10 item + 4 tenser + 2 ship = 84. You got 86 on your screenshot, what did I miss?

Could be primal (for a net +3) and maybe something less (no +1 profane?).

Andoris
10-20-2013, 01:21 AM
How did you get that str? I could do the breakdown for other stats and saves but str i could only find 18 + 7 lv + 5 tome + 8 psionic + 1 fighter + 4 human + 17 insightful + 1 exceptional + 1 profane + 2 completionist + 2 rage + 2 yugo + 10 item + 4 tenser + 2 ship = 84. You got 86 on your screenshot, what did I miss?

86 str = (18 base +5 tome +7 levels +1 Enchantment [globe] +10 item +17 insight [divine might] +1 profane +2 enhancement +2 destiny +2 completionist +2 ship +2 yugo +4 alchemical [tensers] +2 morale [rage pot] +8 psionic [power surge] +3 action boost)

Cetus
10-20-2013, 12:54 PM
There's no concentration checks on SLA's :D

Oh, well that solves that one - heh

Blade420
10-21-2013, 02:01 AM
First of all many thanks for this build Cetus found this a while ago and just had to try it. Im nowhere near as well geared as you are and i use twf instead of thf but its a lot of fun to play, im waiting until i get to lvl 28 (currently lvl 24) then ill try and LR with those feats you have listed. I tried doing it in a planner but its confusing as hell hopefully i wont put a feat in at the wrong lvl and screw up the progression, i dont suppose you have a detailed lvl progression hanging around somewhere on the forums do you?

Osharan_Tregarth
10-21-2013, 01:44 PM
First of all many thanks for this build Cetus found this a while ago and just had to try it. Im nowhere near as well geared as you are and i use twf instead of thf but its a lot of fun to play, im waiting until i get to lvl 28 (currently lvl 24) then ill try and LR with those feats you have listed. I tried doing it in a planner but its confusing as hell hopefully i wont put a feat in at the wrong lvl and screw up the progression, i dont suppose you have a detailed lvl progression hanging around somewhere on the forums do you?

Step 1: Ensure you are the proper alignment before LR'ing...

Step 2: Wait a week after LR'ing because you missed step one...

Step 3: .......

Step 4: Profit!

Cetus
10-21-2013, 06:40 PM
Step 1: Ensure you are the proper alignment before LR'ing...

Step 2: Wait a day after LR'ing because you begged a GM to reset your reincarnation timer.

Step 3: Do it two more times

Step 4: Profit!

What? Fixed steps 2 and 3 for you.

Rull
10-22-2013, 09:33 AM
Looks like a solid build. It has been a while since I played anything like this.

The one thing that surprised me the most was: no Quick Draw?

Doesn't that speed up using action boosts by a lot? On a build with as many action boosts as this one, I'd say that would increase the number of effective attacks/second by a lot
Or is this old or false information?

Andoris
10-22-2013, 01:11 PM
Cetus, I would like to thank you for sharing this amazingly fun build.

I have been running a slight variant of the build, to include Cocoon. I figured I would post it here in case anyone else was interested and to solicit suggestions/comments.

I decided to run with Cocoon due mostly to its non-interruptible nature. With heal scrolls I feel like I am constantly disengaging from combat to ensure that I don’t get hit mid-cast. Resulting in a dps loss best case, or worst case death (due to the player getting a bit too aggressive).

Open Questions:

What to use for my free feat (I don’t have completionist)? Options include: Improved Sunder (will put me at an effective 75 stunning blow with one sunder), Epic PRR (10), or Greater WP Spec (+2 damage).
How much Reflex/will save do I need (Currently Ref:69, Will: 57)? I would love to swap out either the +8 dex or wisdom for +15 heal augment

Pros:

No fail healing with Cocoon (Average of 117 a tick), reducing the need to pull out of combat to heal (increased effective dps)
Not using +2 con Yugo pot (due to no fail heal, I am more comfortable with fewer HP), avoiding the 5% attack speed penalty
+1 to all saves if you control for lack of completionist (effectively -1 saves compared to Cestus’s build)

Cons:

Standing fortification is 123% (could go to 128% with better gear) vs 140%
Loss of 2 seeker, Loss of 5% double strike, and loss of 2d6 elemental damage from red augment
Loss of 20 hp as I couldn't fit in vitality augment and 48 hp from not using the Yugo pot


Build below:






Class Split: 12 Fighter / 6 Monk / 2 Pally (MFFFFFFMFFFMFFMPPFMFM)
Race: Human

Abilities:
Str: 50/80-- (18 base + 5 tome +7 lvl + 1 enh +1 GoTIB +3 Insight +8 Item +1 Profane +2 ED +2 ship +2 Yugo/ + 2 rage +4 tenser +3 Action Boost +8 Power Surge +15 Divine Might)
Dex: 29 / 34 -- (12 base + 5 tome + 8 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +1 profane +2 ship -2 stance / + 4 tenser)
Con: 37/46 -- (14 base +5 tome +1 enh +8 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +1 profane +3 Stance +2 Ship / +2 rage +4 tenser +1 Action Boost)
Int: 15 -- (8 base +4 tome +1 GoTIB +1 profane +2 ship)
Wis: 25 -- (8 base +5 tome +1 GoTIB +8 item +1 profane +2 ship)
Cha: 39/42 -- (16 base +5 tome +10 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +1 profane +2 ship +2 Yugo / +3 Action Boost)

Skills: Balance 23, Concentration 8, Heal 19, UMD 11, Tumble 1

Enhancements:
Paladin: Knight of the Chalice (9 ap): Slayer of Evil (1), Extra Turning III (3), Extra Smite (1), Divine Might II (4)

Fighter: Kensai (33ap): Kensai Focus (1), Weapon Specialization IV (8), Action Boost: Haste III (3), Spiritual Bond (1), Weapon Meditation (2), Shattering Strike (1), Deadly Strike (1), Strike with No Thought (1), Power Surge (1), Keen Edge (1), One with the Blade (1), Extra Action Boost II (4), Tactics (6), Str (2)


Monk Ninja Spy (17 ap): Ninja Training (2), Shadow Veil (1), Sneak Attack Training II (4), Acrobatic (3), Elemental Ki: Fist of Iron (2), Agility III (3), Sting of the Ninja (2)

Monk Shinto (1 AP): Bastion of Purity (1),

Stalwart Defender (1 AP): Toughness (1),

Human (19 ap): Versatility: 20% damage (1), Adaptability: Con (2), Action Surge: Str III (3), Action Surge: Cha III (3), Improved Recovery III (6), Action Surge: Con III (3), Action Surge: Dex I (1)

Core Stats:
HP: 787 Standing / 913 Boosted / 961 Yugo – (188 levels +80 epic +378/504 con +25 heroic +10 draconic +40 False Life +15 auto grants +50 LD +1 Enh / +48 Yugo)
Double Strike: 13% (3% Item + 5% Perfect TWF + 3% Draconic Ferocity +2% Kensai)
Stunning Blow DC: 72+improved sunder – (10 base + 35 Str +5 exc combat mastery +10 stunning +3 Kensai +6 tactics +3 Ftr PL)
Positive Spell Power: 297 (100 base + 138 Devotion + 30 Implement +10 Shinto +24 heal skill)
Healing Amp: 224% / 296% (Scrolls only) (1.3 human recovery * 1.05 Shinto * 1.15 past life * 1.1 ship * 1.3 Bracers [1.1*1.2 for scrolls]); Self cast heal scroll hits for 333 hp, large silver flame for 561 hp, Cocoon Average tick for 117
Dodge: 18% - (10% Item + 6% Flurry + 3% Acrobatic)
PRR: 28 (12 Master Earth + 16 Augment)
Miss Chance: 55%/71.9% = 20/50% Concealment (Blur/Displacement) * 25% Incorporeal * 28% dodge
UMD: 45 -- (11 ranks +8 epic +16 Cha +3 competence +2 luck +4 morale +1 profane)

Saves:
Fort: 62/75 – (16 base +4 epic +13/+18 con +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +4 insightful +1 Ship +1 Aura of Good +14/+16 Divine Grace +2 Fire finisher – 4 Yugo)
Ref: 62/69 – (9 base +4 epic +9/12 dex +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +4 insightful +1 Ship +1 Agility +1 Aura of Good +14/+16 Divine Grace +2 fire finisher)
Will: 53/57 – (9 base +4 epic +7 wis +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +4 insightful +1 Ship +1 Aura of Good +14/+16 Divine Grace +2 fire finisher)

Epic Destiny – Legendary Dreadnought:
Legendary Tactics (3), Extra Action Boost (3), Momentum Swing (3), Improved Power Attack (2), Lay Waste (2), Attack Boost: Damage (1), Strength II (4), Advancing Blows (2), Devastating Critical (2), Masters Blitz (2)
Twists: Unyielding Sentinel: Bane of Undeath (1), Primal Avatar: Rejuvenation Cocoon (1), Grandmaster: Dance of Flowers (1),

Gear:
Trinket: Litany (Eldritch Saves Ritual) / PLIS
Head: Black dragon +3 insightful Str, (Green: 40 False Life, Yellow: GoTIB)
Neck: Deadly 10 of Archmagi
Goggles: Charisma 10, Resistance 10
Bracers: Healing Amp 30% or Parrying +4
Body: Black Dragon (Blue: 16 PRR)
Cloak: lvl24 Cloak of the Wolf
Ring: Fortification 120% of Seeker 10
Ring: Seal of Dun’Ro’Bar +2 con, Stunning 10
Boots: EE Goatskins Sonic resist 40 (Green: Good luck Colorless: wis +8)
Gloves: EE Backstaber’s (Yellow: Con 8)
Belt: epic Spare Hand (Colorless: Str +8, Blue: iCha +2)
Weapons: eSoS (Colorless: Dex +8, Red: Devotion 138)

Cetus
10-22-2013, 01:31 PM
Cetus, I would like to thank you for sharing this amazingly fun build.

I have been running a slight variant of the build, to include Cocoon. I figured I would post it here in case anyone else was interested and to solicit suggestions/comments.

I decided to run with Cocoon due mostly to its non-interruptible nature. With heal scrolls I feel like I am constantly disengaging from combat to ensure that I don’t get hit mid-cast. Resulting in a dps loss best case, or worst case death (due to the player getting a bit too aggressive).

Open Questions:

What to use for my free feat (I don’t have completionist)? Options include: Improved Sunder (will put me at an effective 75 stunning blow with one sunder), Epic PRR (10), or Greater WP Spec (+2 damage).
How much Reflex/will save do I need (Currently Ref:69, Will: 57)? I would love to swap out either the +8 dex or wisdom for +15 heal augment

Pros:

No fail healing with Cocoon (Average of 117 a tick), reducing the need to pull out of combat to heal (increased effective dps)
Not using +2 con Yugo pot (due to no fail heal, I am more comfortable with fewer HP), avoiding the 5% attack speed penalty
+1 to all saves if you control for lack of completionist (effectively -1 saves compared to Cestus’s build)

Cons:

Standing fortification is 123% (could go to 128% with better gear) vs 140%
Loss of 2 seeker, Loss of 5% double strike, and loss of 2d6 elemental damage from red augment
Loss of 20 hp as I couldn't fit in vitality augment and 48 hp from not using the Yugo pot


Build below:






Class Split: 12 Fighter / 6 Monk / 2 Pally (MFFFFFFMFFFMFFMPPFMFM)
Race: Human

Abilities:
Str: 50/80-- (18 base + 5 tome +7 lvl + 1 enh +1 GoTIB +3 Insight +8 Item +1 Profane +2 ED +2 ship +2 Yugo/ + 2 rage +4 tenser +3 Action Boost +8 Power Surge +15 Divine Might)
Dex: 29 / 34 -- (12 base + 5 tome + 8 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +1 profane +2 ship -2 stance / + 4 tenser)
Con: 37/46 -- (14 base +5 tome +1 enh +8 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +1 profane +3 Stance +2 Ship / +2 rage +4 tenser +1 Action Boost)
Int: 15 -- (8 base +4 tome +1 GoTIB +1 profane +2 ship)
Wis: 25 -- (8 base +5 tome +1 GoTIB +8 item +1 profane +2 ship)
Cha: 39/42 -- (16 base +5 tome +10 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +1 profane +2 ship +2 Yugo / +3 Action Boost)

Skills: Balance 23, Concentration 8, Heal 19, UMD 11, Tumble 1

Enhancements:
Paladin: Knight of the Chalice (9 ap): Slayer of Evil (1), Extra Turning III (3), Extra Smite (1), Divine Might II (4)

Fighter: Kensai (33ap): Kensai Focus (1), Weapon Specialization IV (8), Action Boost: Haste III (3), Spiritual Bond (1), Weapon Meditation (2), Shattering Strike (1), Deadly Strike (1), Strike with No Thought (1), Power Surge (1), Keen Edge (1), One with the Blade (1), Extra Action Boost II (4), Tactics (6), Str (2)


Monk Ninja Spy (17 ap): Ninja Training (2), Shadow Veil (1), Sneak Attack Training II (4), Acrobatic (3), Elemental Ki: Fist of Iron (2), Agility III (3), Sting of the Ninja (2)

Monk Shinto (1 AP): Bastion of Purity (1),

Stalwart Defender (1 AP): Toughness (1),

Human (19 ap): Versatility: 20% damage (1), Adaptability: Con (2), Action Surge: Str III (3), Action Surge: Cha III (3), Improved Recovery III (6), Action Surge: Con III (3), Action Surge: Dex I (1)

Core Stats:
HP: 787 Standing / 913 Boosted / 961 Yugo – (188 levels +80 epic +378/504 con +25 heroic +10 draconic +40 False Life +15 auto grants +50 LD +1 Enh / +48 Yugo)
Double Strike: 13% (3% Item + 5% Perfect TWF + 3% Draconic Ferocity +2% Kensai)
Stunning Blow DC: 72+improved sunder – (10 base + 35 Str +5 exc combat mastery +10 stunning +3 Kensai +6 tactics +3 Ftr PL)
Positive Spell Power: 297 (100 base + 138 Devotion + 30 Implement +10 Shinto +24 heal skill)
Healing Amp: 224% / 296% (Scrolls only) (1.3 human recovery * 1.05 Shinto * 1.15 past life * 1.1 ship * 1.3 Bracers [1.1*1.2 for scrolls]); Self cast heal scroll hits for 333 hp, large silver flame for 561 hp, Cocoon Average tick for 117
Dodge: 18% - (10% Item + 6% Flurry + 3% Acrobatic)
PRR: 28 (12 Master Earth + 16 Augment)
Miss Chance: 55%/71.9% = 20/50% Concealment (Blur/Displacement) * 25% Incorporeal * 28% dodge
UMD: 45 -- (11 ranks +8 epic +16 Cha +3 competence +2 luck +4 morale +1 profane)

Saves:
Fort: 62/75 – (16 base +4 epic +13/+18 con +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +4 insightful +1 Ship +1 Aura of Good +14/+16 Divine Grace +2 Fire finisher – 4 Yugo)
Ref: 62/69 – (9 base +4 epic +9/12 dex +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +4 insightful +1 Ship +1 Agility +1 Aura of Good +14/+16 Divine Grace +2 fire finisher)
Will: 53/57 – (9 base +4 epic +7 wis +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +4 insightful +1 Ship +1 Aura of Good +14/+16 Divine Grace +2 fire finisher)

Epic Destiny – Legendary Dreadnought:
Legendary Tactics (3), Extra Action Boost (3), Momentum Swing (3), Improved Power Attack (2), Lay Waste (2), Attack Boost: Damage (1), Strength II (4), Advancing Blows (2), Devastating Critical (2), Masters Blitz (2)
Twists: Unyielding Sentinel: Bane of Undeath (1), Primal Avatar: Rejuvenation Cocoon (1), Grandmaster: Dance of Flowers (1),

Gear:
Trinket: Litany (Eldritch Saves Ritual) / PLIS
Head: Black dragon +3 insightful Str, (Green: 40 False Life, Yellow: GoTIB)
Neck: Deadly 10 of Archmagi
Goggles: Charisma 10, Resistance 10
Bracers: Healing Amp 30% or Parrying +4
Body: Black Dragon (Blue: 16 PRR)
Cloak: lvl24 Cloak of the Wolf
Ring: Fortification 120% of Seeker 10
Ring: Seal of Dun’Ro’Bar +2 con, Stunning 10
Boots: EE Goatskins Sonic resist 40 (Green: Good luck Colorless: wis +8)
Gloves: EE Backstaber’s (Yellow: Con 8)
Belt: epic Spare Hand (Colorless: Str +8, Blue: iCha +2)
Weapons: eSoS (Colorless: Dex +8, Red: Devotion 138)




The build looks decent as well - only issue is the fortification there - I run with 140 from brace for impact and still get crit occasionally, dropping even lower is risky business (especially if we share a similar super-aggressive playstyle where I frequently run in the middle of several assassins cleaving away).

However, I'll be making the transition to bladeforged - where the inherent fortification will allow me to drop brace for impact and load pin or sense weakness back up, and the recon should be at least in the mid 500 range from my projected repair spell power - much better than cocoon. The warforged tactics will compensate for the loss of 6 strength, and the +6 to damage from PA will compensate for the damage loss.

The free twist will compensate for the loss of GTHF as a feat, with all of the warforged immunities/reconstruct/fortification/hitpoints and shaken ability as improvements (shaken is an effective +2 tactics dc as well).

Saves: +1 aura of good as a bladeforged, -2 by losing brace for impact, -2 from losing 2 cha modifiers upon boosting. So, at most a net loss of 3 to saves, but being a warforged the threat of a hold/fts are eliminated - not bad.

Andoris
10-22-2013, 02:08 PM
The build looks decent as well - only issue is the fortification there - I run with 140 from brace for impact and still get crit occasionally, dropping even lower is risky business (especially if we share a similar super-aggressive playstyle where I frequently run in the middle of several assassins cleaving away).

However, I'll be making the transition to bladeforged - where the inherent fortification will allow me to drop brace for impact and load pin or sense weakness back up, and the recon should be at least in the mid 500 range from my projected repair spell power - much better than cocoon. The warforged tactics will compensate for the loss of 6 strength, and the +6 to damage from PA will compensate for the damage loss.

The free twist will compensate for the loss of GTHF as a feat, with all of the warforged immunities/reconstruct/fortification/hitpoints and shaken ability as improvements (shaken is an effective +2 tactics dc as well).

Saves: +1 aura of good as a bladeforged, -2 by losing brace for impact, -2 from losing 2 cha modifiers upon boosting. So, at most a net loss of 3 to saves, but being a warforged the threat of a hold/fts are eliminated - not bad.

I haven't ran the numbers yet on Bladeforged yet, but the writeup above is getting me excited. Only concern is the 25sp cost to the recons will likely require a bauble at minimum, to make that last shrine-to-shrine. (wasn't looking forward to farm out another one of those)

Cetus
10-22-2013, 03:34 PM
I haven't ran the numbers yet on Bladeforged yet, but the writeup above is getting me excited. Only concern is the 25sp cost to the recons will likely require a bauble at minimum, to make that last shrine-to-shrine. (wasn't looking forward to farm out another one of those)

Yea, definitely want a bauble.

Also, gear layout will change a bit - can drop down 1 cha since cha will be a 41 without the +3 human boost that took me to 44. Instead, equip cha +3 field optics, slot +8 cha augment and drop stolen necklace. This nets perma true seeing and an additional slot for perhaps spellpower, and instead pick up a set of deadly 10 / resistance 10 necklace.

Andoris
10-23-2013, 02:25 PM
I worked up a Bladeforged version of the build. Overall it is higher DPS and fortification over the human version, with a fair loss of saves. Build and comparison listed below:

Pros:

Significantly increased Fortification from 123% to 175%
Massive increase to burst healing (Recon SLA for 510hp)
5% increase in doublestrike, +2 seeker and the addition of Sense Weakness
Power of the forge (+10prr, +30 spell power, +4 saves w/no fail on 1)
Ability to mostly ignore will saves


Cons:

Completely dependent on Recon SLA for healing (loss of effective LOH, Silver Flame, and Scrolls)
Reduction in saves 70/66/49 (74/70/53 33% of the time) vs 75/69/57
Need to farm out a bauble and likely carry SP pots



Class Split: 12 Fighter / 6 Monk / 2 Pally (PMFFFFFFMFFPFFFMFMMF)
Race: Bladeforged

Abilities:
Str: 50/76-- (16 base + 5 tome +7 lvl + 1 enh +1 GoTIB +3 Insight +10 Item +1 Profane +2 ED +2 ship +2 Yugo/ + 2 rage +4 tenser +8 Power Surge +14 Divine Might)
Dex: 32 / 36 -- (12 base + 5 tome + 9 item +1 GoTIB +2 insight +1 profane +2 ship -2 stance / + 4 tenser)
Con: 38/44 -- (15 base +5 tome +1 enh +8 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +1 profane +3 Stance +2 Ship / +2 rage +4 tenser)
Int: 16 -- (8 base +4 tome +1 GoTIB +1 profane +2 ship)
Wis: 17 -- (8 base +5 tome +1 GoTIB +1 profane +2 ship)
Cha: 40 -- (17 base +5 tome +10 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +1 profane +2 ship +2 Yugo)

Skills: Balance 17, Repair 23, UMD 5, Tumble 1

Feats: Passive Past Life: Paladin x3, Fighter x3
Base: WF: Slashing (1), WF: Ranged (3), Great Cleave (6), Improved Critical: Slashing (9), Improved Two-Handed Fighting (12), Improved Critical: Ranged (15), Rapid Shot (18), Overwhelming Critical (21), Master of Forms (24), Epic PRR or Epic Fortitude? (27),
Fighter: Cleave (3), Point Blank Shot (4), Weapon Specialization (6), Stunning Blow (8), Greater WF: Slashing (11), Greater Two-Handed Fighting (14), Many shot (20)
Monk: Power Attack (2), Two-handed Fighting (9), Fists of Light (9), Zen Archery (19)
Destiny: Perfect Two-Handed Fighting (26), Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (28)

Enhancements:
Paladin: Knight of the Chalice (9 ap): Slayer of Evil (1), Extra Turning III (3), Extra Smite (1), Divine Might II (4)

Fighter: Kensai (33ap): Kensai Focus (1), Weapon Specialization IV (8), Action Boost: Haste III (3), Spiritual Bond (1), Weapon Meditation (2), Shattering Strike (1), Deadly Strike (1), Strike with No Thought (1), Power Surge (1), Keen Edge (1), One with the Blade (1), Extra Action Boost II (4), Tactics (6), Str (2)

Monk Ninja Spy (17 ap): Ninja Training (2), Shadow Veil (1), Sneak Attack Training II (4), Acrobatic (3), Elemental Ki: Fist of Iron (2), Agility III (3), Sting of the Ninja (2)

BladeForged (21 ap): Improved Fortification II (2), WF Con I (2), Repair Systems I (2), WF: Tactics III (3), Fearsome Presence (1), Improved Power Attack III (4), Power of the Forge (1), Communion of Scribing III (6)

Core Stats:
Fortification: 175%
HP: 805 Standing / 889 Boosted / 937 Yugo – (188 levels +80 epic +392/476 con +25 heroic +10 draconic +45 False Life +15 auto grants +50 LD / +48 Yugo)
Double Strike: 18% (8% Item + 5% Perfect TWF + 3% Draconic Ferocity +2% Kensi)
Stunning Blow DC: 75 – (10 base + 33 Str +5 exc combat mastery +10 stunning +3 Kensi +3 WF +6 tactics +3 Ftr PL +2 Shaken)
Repair Spell Power: 209 (138 Devotion + 30 Implement +38 heal skill)
Reconstruct SLA: 510 HP
Dodge: 16% - (8% Item + 6% Flurry + 3% Acrobatic)
PRR: 28 (12 Master Earth + 16 Augment)
Miss Chance: 57%/73% = 20/50% Concealment (Blur/Displacement) * 25% Incorporeal * 28% dodge (Blitzing)
UMD: 43 -- (5 ranks +8 epic +15 Cha +1 tome +3 competence +2 luck +4 morale +1 profane +1 ship)

Saves:
Fort: 68/74 – (16 base +4 epic +17 con +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +1 Ship +2 Aura of Good +14 Divine Grace +2 Fire finisher +4 Power of the forge – 4 Yugo)
Ref: 64/70 – (9 base +4 epic +12 dex +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +1 Ship +3 Agility +2 Aura of Good +14 Divine Grace +2 fire finisher +4 Power of the forge)
Will: 47/53 – (9 base +4 epic +7 wis +4 morale +10 resistance +2 luck +1 competence +1 Ship +2 Aura of Good +14 Divine Grace +2 fire finisher +4 Power of the forge)

Epic Destiny – Legendary Dreadnought:
Legendary Tactics (3), Extra Action Boost (3), Momentum Swing (3), Improved Power Attack (2), Lay Waste (2), Attack Boost (1), Strength II (4), Advancing Blows (2), Devastating Critical (2), Masters Blitz (2)
Twists: Fury: Sense Weakness (4), Unyielding Sentinel: Bane of Undeath (1), Grandmaster: Dance of Flowers (1)

Gear:
Trinket: Litany (Eldrich Saves Ritual) / PLIS
Head: Black dragon +3 iStr, (Green: Heavy Fort, Yellow: GoTIB)
Neck: Deadly 10 of Wizardry 9
Goggles: Charisma 10, Resistance 10
Bracers: Skirmishers (+9 Dex, +8 Double Strike)
Body: Black Dragon (Blue: 16 PRR)
Cloak: Cloak of the Wolf
Ring: EE Consuming Darkness (Green: +2 iDex)
Ring: Seal of Dun’Ro’Bar +2 iCon, Stunning 10
Boots: EE Goatskins Sonic resist 40 (Green: Good luck Colorless: +2 iCha)
Gloves: EE Backstabers (Yellow: Con 8)
Belt: Ogre Power 10 False Life 45
Weapons: eSoS (Colorless: +15 Repair, Red: Reconstruction 138)

maddmatt70
10-23-2013, 02:35 PM
Try doing ee quests without fortification and you will find it makes a lot less of a difference then you all think. I did about 10 recently with 0 forification and it did not make much of a difference, although I kept myself more topped hit point wise.