PDA

View Full Version : Build Request - Ranger Past Life



Son_of_the_South
08-06-2013, 10:05 PM
Looking to get Ranger past life and seeking a build that can reliably self heal (hate having to rely on hires). TR as soon as hit 20. Prob cap in the Vale.

SiliconShadow
08-09-2013, 06:21 AM
Looking to get Ranger past life and seeking a build that can reliably self heal (hate having to rely on hires). TR as soon as hit 20. Prob cap in the Vale.

Just get positive energy items / slot positive energy and get a little extra wisdom + wisdom item + wizardry item and you won't have a problem healing. If you go melee make sure you get you concentration up. Recommend in the new update go for a dex based tempest / rogue combination.

18 ranger 2 rogue for example, dex/con/wis and use dex to hit and damage. Massive reflex save, capped dodge and high AC with the ability to do traps. You might want to fiddle with the rogue split 9/11 works for more SA damage and add in DWS sneak as well giving you quite a lot of SA to go in with it. Make sure to look at the new enhancement trees before deciding.

Son_of_the_South
08-14-2013, 06:43 PM
Thanks for the feedback. Yes waiting on the EP before making any solid decisions but you've given some food for thought here, appreciated.

Therigar
08-14-2013, 08:01 PM
DEX based ranger/rogue is the wrong answer.

Ranger/rogue isn't necessarily bad but there's no reason to go DEX based. The changes to the enhancement system make it so that you don't even need the 13 DEX that rangers used to have to qualify the dodge feat.

STR based is the way to go with rangers under the new system. A 12/4/4 ranger/rogue/paladin offers too many goodies to choose from but is probably worth investigating. The build is all STR, CON and CHA with anything left over thrown at INT. Go half-elf and you can be a tempest arcane archer. Throw away the rogue levels and take monk and you can be a tempest arcane monkcher.

Paladin line offers some useful PRR, monk gives access to 10k stars and zen archery, ranger gives 100% off-hand procs, monk also opens short swords as monk weapons if you don't go with wraps. Ranger and paladin give access to various types of self healing.

Lastly, don't ignore Heal in skill selections. Heal gives a boost to all cure spells.

Therigar
08-15-2013, 06:01 AM
One more thing, if you are only looking for the ranger past life I would seriously consider monk 9/ranger 11. Build and play as a standard monk build with WIS and DEX for AC, plenty of dodge, etc.

SiliconShadow
08-15-2013, 06:06 AM
I totally disagree with the above for just a ranger life.

For a fast and safe life, not for a perma dps character dexterity is the better option in the new update. This is purely because you can hit and dmg off dex, it adds to your ac and reflex save.

Therigar
08-15-2013, 12:08 PM
I totally disagree with the above for just a ranger life.

For a fast and safe life, not for a perma dps character dexterity is the better option in the new update. This is purely because you can hit and dmg off dex, it adds to your ac and reflex save.

I understand the thought process but this is wrong.

A player working from 32 points will be better off going 16 STR, 14 DEX, 16 CON, 14 INT. This gives the best of all worlds.

Going with 14 DEX and INT opens both the dodge line and combat expertise for maximum AC benefit. DEX modifier to AC is limited to 6 or less on most heroic light armor. A 14 DEX with appropriate tomes and gear will hit 24 by L20 for a 7 modifier. Meanwhile, combat expertise is a 10% AC boost. At 40 AC that is +4 -- DEX modifier would have to jump to 10 on armor and DEX would have to reach 32 to achieve the same thing.

Because STR is more easily raised than DEX the 16 STR is better than an 18 DEX. Ram's Might immediately overcomes the DEX advantage and Rage makes STR the better stat.

SiliconShadow can disagree, but they are wrong. There is no circumstance in heroic levels where DEX is better than STR.

Because INT is the key stat for search and disable, along with skill points, high INT is clearly called for. If you want something amusing play a dwarf artificer 2/ranger 18. Get the full range of rogue skills, use the racial bonus in CON to hold it at 16 and raise INT to 16. Get access to arcane archer and tempest with the new enhancement lines plus open repeater and rune arm use for situations where arcane archer and many shot isn't cutting it.

Or, go half-elf with stats like I suggest at 11/9 going full monkcher with AA and 10K stars.

But, whatever you do, don't go DEX based. It is absolutely the wrong approach for a heroic build.

Therigar
08-15-2013, 12:18 PM
It is absolutely the wrong approach for a heroic build.

Note this last statement I make. Here is the crucial point of disagreement with SiliconShadow. DEX might be a reasonable choice for epic builds assuming you have the right weapon selection and enough rogue levels. I especially expect to see rogue assassin builds really pushing the envelope of INT and DEX in an effort to pull off assassinations in epic content.

I also expect to see some monk builds pushing DEX for the synergy with WIS. Since these builds already dump STR it makes sense for them to try to work DEX into the mix. Henshin might be a really popular choice for a while.

Grailhawk
08-15-2013, 12:55 PM
It is absolutely the wrong approach for a heroic build.

You're over stating it. Str is the optimal choice but Dex is viable. In heroic you're looking at what +4 more STR (Rage and Rams Might) that's not really all that much, and for a past life you really don't need optimal, hell for 99% of DDO you don't need optimal.

Therigar
08-15-2013, 02:14 PM
You're over stating it. Str is the optimal choice but Dex is viable. In heroic you're looking at what +4 more STR (Rage and Rams Might) that's not really all that much, and for a past life you really don't need optimal, hell for 99% of DDO you don't need optimal.

It isn't just the STR difference, it is the damage difference due to weapon choices. DEX has always been viable but suboptimal. Now it is less suboptimal. But, it is still the suboptimal choice.

To excuse that by saying DEX is viable is irresponsible. To suggest DEX instead of STR when there is no advantage to DEX at all is close to criminal.

I'm supportive of DEX builds -- I often suggest them as an alternative. But, just because they are viable that does not mean they are the best choice -- or even a good choice.

DEX builds should only be used when there is a clear advantage. Examples are monks where the synergy of DEX and WIS yields AC in the 120+ range or rogues where the DEX contributes to other essential aspects of the build (sneak for assassination).

There is no clear advantage to DEX on a ranger build. Added DEX is not needed to hit if a player decides to go AA. Since there is no intent to play at epic levels there is no need to qualify epic feats. To the contrary, AA gain more damage by being STR based without affecting the chances to hit on heroic content. And melee gains both to hit and to damage as well as working from higher damage output weapons.

DEX is as bad as I am making it out to be for this build. Not understanding that is just willful ignorance and has no basis in fact.

Grailhawk
08-15-2013, 03:36 PM
It isn't just the STR difference, it is the damage difference due to weapon choices. DEX has always been viable but suboptimal. Now it is less suboptimal. But, it is still the suboptimal choice.

To excuse that by saying DEX is viable is irresponsible. To suggest DEX instead of STR when there is no advantage to DEX at all is close to criminal.

I'm supportive of DEX builds -- I often suggest them as an alternative. But, just because they are viable that does not mean they are the best choice -- or even a good choice.

DEX builds should only be used when there is a clear advantage. Examples are monks where the synergy of DEX and WIS yields AC in the 120+ range or rogues where the DEX contributes to other essential aspects of the build (sneak for assassination).

There is no clear advantage to DEX on a ranger build. Added DEX is not needed to hit if a player decides to go AA. Since there is no intent to play at epic levels there is no need to qualify epic feats. To the contrary, AA gain more damage by being STR based without affecting the chances to hit on heroic content. And melee gains both to hit and to damage as well as working from higher damage output weapons.

DEX is as bad as I am making it out to be for this build. Not understanding that is just willful ignorance and has no basis in fact.

You don't understand the different between viable and optimal. Dex to damage is not the best choice but it is not a bad choice any more (It was not viable before they let you get it to damage). Its a trade of a bit of Damage for a bit of Reflex. In Epic levels this trade is not worth it in heroic levels this is insignificant

As for weapon selection that's a bogus argument Scimitars and Rapiers are so close to Khopesh in heroic that it's a trivial difference (Same goes for Dwarven Axe and Bastard Swords) and in epics there are CiTW weapons, not that those are relevant to this guys build as he's just looking for a PL.

The real arguments for Str over Dex are tactics (which are have traditionally been debatable on a Ranger), that you must burn a feat on it, and that there is more Str in the game then Dex and that's not a concern till 20+.

If there's something I'm missing show me but otherwise I think your just letting old biases get in the way.

Therigar
08-15-2013, 04:13 PM
You don't understand the different between viable and optimal.

Don't be stupid. Viable means, literally, "able to live" or, in this context, "able to work." Even with things as they are right now DEX builds are viable. I've run several of them and they work.

That is a far cry from being optimal. Optimal means most favorable -- no DEX build will ever be that when we are talking rangers.

Pre U14 it might have been possible to build an arcane archer with DEX as the principle stat and have that be optimal over a STR build. But, since the changes in how to hit works that is no longer the case. The only need is sufficient DEX to hit.

On tempest rangers DEX as the principle stat was never optimal.

As for old biases, that is incorrect as well.

Any weapon working from 16 base STR as I suggest with Ram's Might and Rage both running puts a character 1 point ahead of DEX builds that build starts at 18, even with DEX builds that start at 20. So, immediately, there is no advantage to DEX whatsoever.

Next, scimitars and rapiers are NOT equivalent to khopesh. Khopesh is d8 19-20/x3. Rapiers and scimitars are d6 18-20/x2. The difference is significant. Without keen and assuming every attack hits khopesh averages 4.5*24=108 while rapier/scimitar averages 3.5*23=80.5. That is a loss of >27 points of damage thru 20 attacks.

With keen the numbers are 4.5*28=128 v 3.5*26=91, a difference of 17 points of damage. When you figure in burst and other type damages the distance between the two grows. It never shrinks.

Grailhawk
08-15-2013, 05:44 PM
Don't be stupid. Viable means, literally, "able to live" or, in this context, "able to work." Even with things as they are right now DEX builds are viable. I've run several of them and they work.

That is a far cry from being optimal. Optimal means most favorable -- no DEX build will ever be that when we are talking rangers.

Pre U14 it might have been possible to build an arcane archer with DEX as the principle stat and have that be optimal over a STR build. But, since the changes in how to hit works that is no longer the case. The only need is sufficient DEX to hit.

On tempest rangers DEX as the principle stat was never optimal.

As for old biases, that is incorrect as well.

Any weapon working from 16 base STR as I suggest with Ram's Might and Rage both running puts a character 1 point ahead of DEX builds that build starts at 18, even with DEX builds that start at 20. So, immediately, there is no advantage to DEX whatsoever.

Next, scimitars and rapiers are NOT equivalent to khopesh. Khopesh is d8 19-20/x3. Rapiers and scimitars are d6 18-20/x2. The difference is significant. Without keen and assuming every attack hits khopesh averages 4.5*24=108 while rapier/scimitar averages 3.5*23=80.5. That is a loss of >27 points of damage thru 20 attacks.

With keen the numbers are 4.5*28=128 v 3.5*26=91, a difference of 17 points of damage. When you figure in burst and other type damages the distance between the two grows. It never shrinks.

Don't be so confrontational its stupid.

How many Heroic mobs take 100 swings to kill, or are you just that bad at building? Also you always miss on a one so your numbers are loaded.
Per Swing a khopesh is 1.35x (where x is your damage mod) and a Scimitar is 1.25x this means that at best a khopesh is 10% better then Scimitar assuming you only miss on a 1. After 18 this is knotisable and important before that it doesn't matter.

Explanation on math since you need it.
Scimitar
0.65(x) chance to hit that's not a crit + 0.3(2(x+s)) chance to crit times crit multiplier 2 = 1.25 Avg Dmg

Khopesh
0.75(x+1) chance to hit that's not a crit plus 1 (4.5 vs 3.5 average damage from d8 vs d6) + 0.20(3(x+1+s)) = 1.35x + 1.35

Real Example
18 Base
04 Level Up
06 Item
01 Ex Item
03 Enh
32 Stat Base (11 Mod)

STR Buffs
02 Rams
02 Rage
36 Str Stat (13 Mod)

08 FE
02 Competence
04 Enh
05 Power Attack
19 Total

Lit II Scimitar Dex Based
1.5(3.5) 15-20 x2 2d6 Holy 1d6 Shock 2d10 Shocking Burst + Shocking Blast 4d6 Shocking Blast 6 seeker
5.25 + 30 = 35.25
0.65(35.25) + 0.6(41.25) + 0.95(10.5) + 0.3(11) + 0.05(14) =
22.9125 + 24.75 + 9.975 + 3.3 + 0.7 = 61.6375 ~ 62 Avg per swing

12 Swings to kill a 700 HP mob


Lit II Khopesh STR Based
1.5(4.5) 17-20 x3 2d6 Holy 1d6 Shock 4d10 Shocking Burst + Shocking Blast 4d6 Shocking Blast 6 seeker
6.75 + 32 = 38.75
0.75(38.75) + 0.6(44.75) + 0.95(10.5) + 0.2(22) + 0.05(14)
29.0625 + 26.85 + 9.975 + 4.4 + 0.7 = 70.9875 ~ 71 Avg per Swing

10 Swings to kill a 700 HP mob

9 points per swing more for the STR Khopesh user then the Dex Khopesh user not exactly insignificant but reasonable and he has +4 Reflex over the STR build. Another way to look at that is its about 1 second difference. Str is Optimal Dex is viable and not bad in Heroic.

Therigar
08-15-2013, 08:19 PM
Your information is misleading.

First, rogue gives DEX to hit as an enhancement but that applies to dagger and kukri ONLY. It never applies to scimitar. And, it only applies to rapier if you have at least 3 rogue levels AND the weapon finesse feat. There is NO enhancement for rangers to achieve the same thing.

This means that the rogue 2/ranger 18 build can NEVER use DEX to hit and to damage unless the player acquires one of the already existing DEX based weapons.

So, the argument that rapier/scimitar is close to khopesh damage is a red herring because scimitar isn't an option and rapier isn't either (at least not for the recommended build).

The recommended build was rogue 2/ranger 18. This in and of itself is not a good recommendation because rogue 1 gets all of the essential skills, rogue 2 brings nothing to the build and rogue 3 is needed for DEX to damage on finesse weapons (and requires the weapon finesse feat). It reduces the numbers in your calculations by 2 for FE but note that even that only applies from L16 onward. In fact, the whole Lit II example depends on having Lit II -- something that should not be assumed (and meaning that it was picked because it gives the most favorable outcome to the rapier/scimitar).

Now, if your purpose is to argue that rapier/scimitar can be near equal to khopesh that is fine. But, if we are doing that then we need to move beyond Shroud weapons.

But, the conversation is about DEX v STR. So misleading readers with weapon examples and level assumptions that are unrealistic is unfair.

The alternative build suggestion (which I said has too many goodies but bears investigating) is paladin 4/rogue 4/ranger 12. What this does is add in Divine Might (a STR boost in the new system) and sneak attack dice. Neither of these are in your calculation -- showing that you are not really comparing the builds under discussion but just making an argument for the sake of arguing.

tl;dnr: Your information is misleading. DEX can never apply to Lit II scimitars, it can only apply to Lit II rapiers if the player has 3 rogue levels. Without maximum ranger levels the FE bonus damage is inaccurate. If you insist on doing math to prove a point you must use accurate numbers and stay within the parameters of the problem. Doing otherwise is just picking a fight in order to fight.

Therigar
08-15-2013, 08:46 PM
You don't understand the different between viable and optimal.


How many Heroic mobs take 100 swings to kill, or are you just that bad at building?


Also you always miss on a one so your numbers are loaded.

Fair warning Grailhawk, I did not start with the insults. If you cannot take them in return then don't start with them. The pattern of confrontation began with you.

What you are arguing is factually incorrect. It is incorrect not only because it can never exist -- there is no way in the game today (or Monday for that matter) to channel DEX to hit and damage on a scimitar -- but because if you ride it to its logical conclusion the numbers do not support your conclusions.

If we change scimitar to rapier we must invest in 3 rogue levels and the weapon finesse feat. In terms of feats this puts the DEX build on par with the khopesh build that is investing in an exotic weapon feat. But, it costs the build otherwise.

First it is a net loss of 2 damage v favored enemy. This is because the DEX build must argue from the position of ranger 17 while the STR build can argue from the position of ranger 20. If we argue the STR build from the position of ranger 20 then we are not compelled to argue the STR build from a base of 16. Pushing STR to 18 gives a minimum of 1 point advantage and in most cases a 2 point advantage. It could even be a 3 point advantage in some situations.

But, even if we ignore those things and go 17 ranger/3 rogue rapier DEX build v 12 ranger/4 rogue/4 paladin (which is a "let's investigate") the DEX build has trouble keeping up. Paladin give Divine Might and even with a base 8 CHA by L20 CHA can reasonably be expected to reach 22 for +6 STR. This opens a 3 point gap between STR and DEX at the cost of 2 points v FE, a net +1. The differences in rogue levels is another 3.5 increase in damage for a net 4.5 increase.

The 3 rogue levels open +3 DEX but the 4 rogue levels on the alternative opens 2 STR. No net benefit to either build.

What this all means is that you are at least 4.5 points too low in calculating the khopesh damage at each step of the process making the gap between the STR build and the DEX build larger than you represent it to be.

Bottom line is STR > DEX and it isn't really close.

Therigar
08-15-2013, 11:49 PM
Explanation on math since you need it.

WARNING, LONG

Re-explanation of math using the builds from this thread because it is needed.

DEX calculation for Ranger 17/Rogue 3 (note that this is the only way to get DEX to damage on rapier and that DEX never applies to damage on scimitar*):

18 base
04 tome
05 stat increases
06 enhancements
06 stat item
01 exceptional stat item
02 insight stat item
02 ship buff (lesser dexterity shrine)
--
44 -> +17 damage

Damage calculation for Ranger 17/Rogue 3:

17 DEX damage
05 weapon bonus
06 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
--
35 added damage

Revised calculation substituting rapier for scimitar, using Lit II as in previous example, adding 3d6 sneak attack damage from rogue 3, retaining seeker 6:

0.65(40.25) + 0.3(2(46.25)) + 0.95(21) + 0.3(11) + 0.05(14) = 77.8625 or ~78

STR calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Paladin 4:

16 base
05 stat increases
04 tome
05 enhancements
06 Divine Might (8 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 exception + 2 insight + 1 enhancement)
06 stat item
01 exceptional stat item
02 insight stat item
02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
02 Ram's Might
02 Rage
--
51 -> +20 damage

Damage calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Paladin 4:

20 STR damage
05 weapon bonus
04 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
--
36 added damage

Revised calculation for khopesh, using Lit II as in previous example, adding 4d6 sneak attack damage from rogue 4, retaining seeker 6:

0.75(42.75) + 0.2(3(48.75)) + 0.95(24.5) + 0.2(22) + 0.05(14) = 89.6875 or ~90.

But, this isn't the whole story because the paladin levels also give Exalted Smite for +2 critical threat range, +2 damage multiplier and +4 damage boost. This makes the khopesh

.65(46.75) + 0.2(5(52.75) + 0.95(24.5) + 0.3(44) + 0.05(14) = 120.3125 or ~120.

This means the DEX build is ~35% less efficient than the STR build.

*Final notes:


There is a ranger enhancement that allows DEX to damage on light weapons. Neither rapier nor scimitar is a light weapon. This is to clear up any confusion on any reader's part about the ability to use DEX for damage with either rapiers or scimitars.
I noticed as I got to the end of this that I'd forgotten to add 2 damage from Ram's Might. This applies to either DEX or STR builds but is easily forgotten in DEX builds where there isn't any other reason to boost STR, meaning that some other spell might be carried instead. The difference in the calculations will be minimal and the bottom line will remain the same -- DEX is wrong for the build being discussed in this thread.
I used +4 tomes because they are available from Turbine and using +5 tomes will not alter the DEX number. Using +5 tomes on the STR build will increase STR by 1 and CHA by 2 which will have an impact on the STR calculation.
Players could choose to push DEX and STR higher by choosing the race carefully. I've assumed human. The counter to halfling/elf/drow/half-elf for DEX is half-orc for STR. It will make the DEX number marginally closer to the STR number but still doesn't change the bottom line.

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 01:55 AM
Lv3 Tempest Core enh: Tempest makes Scimitar a light weapon and lets you use Dex for To hit with Light weapons
Lv6 Tempest core enh: Grace gives damage you Dex to damage with light weapons which Scimitars are do to Tempest.

Tier 2 Deepwood sniper enh: Improved Weapon Finesse Gives Dex to damage with any weapon that weapon finesse effects. aka Rapiers Pure 20 Ranger can use Dex for hit an damage

I have tested all of those in various combinations. I know the work and how they work perfectly. You don't even know they exist apparently.

My initial math is correct and does not favor either Khopesh or Scimitar its just numbers. Its clear you cant admit you're wrong and that Dex is not a bad primary stat on Ranger even if it is not the best or optimal choice.

I'm done here have a nice day.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 08:44 AM
You don't even know they exist apparently.

I did not know that the core enhancements were there. Good catch. I was only looking at the question from the perspective of the suggested builds and did not look deeper into the ranger core enhancements.

Since they are let's see what effect that has.

DEX calculation for Ranger 20:

18 base
04 tome
05 stat increases
06 enhancements
06 stat item
01 exceptional stat item
02 insight stat item
02 ship buff (lesser dexterity shrine)
--
44 -> +17 damage

Damage calculation for Ranger 20:

17 DEX damage
05 weapon bonus
10 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
02 Ram's Might
02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
--
41 added damage

Revised calculation substituting rapier for scimitar, using Lit II as in previous example, retaining seeker 6:

0.65(46.25) + 0.3(2(52.25)) + 0.95(10.5) + 0.3(11) + 0.05(14) = 75.3875 or ~75.

STR calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Paladin 4:

16 base
05 stat increases
04 tome
05 enhancements
06 Divine Might (8 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 exception + 2 insight + 1 enhancement)
06 stat item
01 exceptional stat item
02 insight stat item
02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
02 Ram's Might
02 Rage
--
51 -> +20 damage

Damage calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 4/Paladin 4:

20 STR damage
05 weapon bonus
06 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
02 Ram's Might
04 Exalted Smite
02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
--
44 added damage

Revised calculation for khopesh, using Lit II as in previous example, adding 4d6 sneak attack damage from rogue 4, Divine Might, retaining seeker 6:

.65(50.75) + 0.2(5(56.75) + 0.95(24.5) + 0.3(44) + 0.05(14) = 124.4625 or ~124.

This means the pure ranger DEX build is ~37% less efficient than the STR build.

So, the fully investigated and tested DEX build is even more inferior than the suggested 17/3 ranger/rogue at ~75 v ~90 damage per attack. And, it is even worse against the suggested 12/4/4 ranger/rogue/paladin at ~37% v ~35% less efficient.

I am glad to have been wrong about scimitar. It only makes me MORE correct about DEX being the wrong choice for this build.

Note that I'm not even trying to maximize the efficiencies in the 12/4/4 build. My suggestion of 16/14/16/14 presumes qualifying feats in DEX and INT without regard to when those feats are taken or how use of tomes could change the base numbers.

Dropping INT and DEX to 11 at character creation can raise STR to 18 for another 1 point of base damage. But better would be to raise CHA to 14 for a +3 STR boost with Divine Might. Now a +5 tome with STR yields a +4 STR increase for +2 damage. Due to criticals this is ~3 points additional damage per attack raising damage to ~130 per attack on the STR build.

No matter how we look at it, the STR build is better.

Lastly, let's look at the claims concerning Reflex saves.

At 44 DEX the pure ranger is +17 to reflex save. Ranger reflex save at L20 is 12. This means that total reflex save before other factors is 29.

Working from 14 base rather than 18 and eliminating stat increases, enhancements and replacing the +4 tome with a +3 tome, the 12/4/4 build has an adjusted 32 DEX for +11. The 12/4/4 has a reflex save of 14 due to the influences of the other character classes. This makes the total reflex save 25 before other factors. Paladin levels allow CHA bonuses to all saves. At 22 CHA this is +6 bringing the 12/4/4 build to 31 before other factors.

Thus, even the argument that DEX provides better reflex saves is false.

I don't mind admitting that I was wrong about scimitars. But, any unbiased reader will have to acknowledge that Grailhawk is wrong about DEX v STR. There simply is no way that a DEX based build is better for what OP wants than a STR build.

Edit: Note that the damage modifiers differ slightly from my previous calculations because I incorrectly figured FE and neglected to add Ram's Might. I've made those corrections in these calculations.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 09:10 AM
Its clear you cant admit you're wrong and that Dex is not a bad primary stat on Ranger even if it is not the best or optimal choice.

Actually, quite the opposite. Anyone who has spent enough time on the forums to know me will know that I freely admit when I am wrong. In fact, I have no issue with being wrong.

And, DEX is a horrible stat for a ranger as the context of this whole thread shows clearly.

The thread is about a ranger build for the sole purpose of acquiring a past life feat. Pure class ranger is no where near the best build for that purpose. Ranger/rogue is better. Ranger 17/rogue 3 is better still. Ranger 12/rogue 4/paladin 4 with a STR emphasis is leaps and bounds ahead of either of those.

FWIW, I appreciate how you have hedged the DEX suggestion to be neither the best nor optimal. But, we both know that it is because DEX as the primary score is a big mistake on a ranger. :cool:

Deathdefy
08-16-2013, 09:34 AM
Build for 18 on a Past Life. 20 is silly and can make for very unpleasant 18 -> 20.

I'd probably go pure Ranger for simplicity's sake and to get to 11 for IPS and GTWF asap, and from there to get to 15 ASAP to memorize both CSW and FoM at once is nice.

I suppose you can splash from there to 18 for 3 levels of fun. Maybe Monk? Ranger 17 seems silly since HiPS appears to blow. You have to stealth in the same place for it to matter, so no thanks.

Also I'd go with Dex not Str these days on a levelling build with evasion. I'd also go pure Elf and get Grace for bow damage. Though obviously I'd pickup power attack too despite the 13 STR req. If you're after a past life, assumedly you're willing to burn str tomes, so assuming a +2 that's 11 starter Strength and get it at level 12 (level 9 = IC:Slashing or Piercing), or +3 that's 10 starter Strength and get it also at level 12.

AC in heroics is more useful than epics, also reflex saves with ranger evasion are nice too - in heroics every point counts. Hitting 40 for Crucible swim and Enter the Kobold fire eles no-fail except on a 1 is non-trivial even with the +10 reflex robe.

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 09:46 AM
So I'm done on the Dex vs Str debate I said my peace, my opinion has always been that sub level 18 Str vs Dex is a non issues after that it changes a lot. People can see my math and you're and make up there own minds.

On the 12/4/4 vs 17/3 I don't think either is the best ranger build would much rather have 15/5, 15/4/1, or 18/1/1. the builds that stop before 15 don't get FOM or CSW (on a human with gear and devotion you can get this over 200 even sub 20) I don't see the point at all in Ranger 17 if your going that far you should go to 18 pick up what ever there calling Tempest 3 these days or just pass on multi classing and go to 20 which seems to have a worth wild capstone (Reports are this my not work how it says it does and I'm not sure till i get time to test. its reported that its double strike double strike not off hand double strike).

Some people will like your 12/4/4 I don't
1. I want to dump Char and DM doesn't stack with Insightful items.
2. I want CSW and FOM.

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 10:08 AM
Build for 18 on a Past Life. 20 is silly and can make for very unpleasant 18 -> 20.

I'd probably go pure Ranger for simplicity's sake and to get to 11 for IPS and GTWF asap, and from there to get to 15 ASAP to memorize both CSW and FoM at once is nice.

I suppose you can splash from there to 18 for 3 levels of fun. Maybe Monk? Ranger 17 seems silly since HiPS appears to blow. You have to stealth in the same place for it to matter, so no thanks.

Also I'd go with Dex not Str these days on a levelling build with evasion. I'd also go pure Elf and get Grace for bow damage. Though obviously I'd pickup power attack too despite the 13 STR req. If you're after a past life, assumedly you're willing to burn str tomes, so assuming a +2 that's 11 starter Strength and get it at level 12 (level 9 = IC:Slashing or Piercing), or +3 that's 10 starter Strength and get it also at level 12.

AC in heroics is more useful than epics, also reflex saves with ranger evasion are nice too - in heroics every point counts. Hitting 40 for Crucible swim and Enter the Kobold fire eles no-fail except on a 1 is non-trivial even with the +10 reflex robe.

I tend to like 1 Rogue 1-11 Ranger 1 Monk/Fighter rest Ranger as my leveling order, don't think there's reason to change it but maybe.

I would rather be Human or Half Elf with 16/16 Base STR/DEX.

Havok.cry
08-16-2013, 10:33 AM
I did not know that the core enhancements were there. Good catch. I was only looking at the question from the perspective of the suggested builds and did not look deeper into the ranger core enhancements.


Not arguing any str vs dex stuff but I did want to point out that any elf of any class can get their chosen set a weapons as dex based at t4 of the elf racial tree. Scimitars is in one of those weapon sets.

Deathdefy
08-16-2013, 10:36 AM
I tend to like 1 Rogue 1-11 Ranger 1 Monk/Fighter rest Ranger as my leveling order, don't think there's reason to change it but maybe.

I would rather be Human or Half Elf with 16/16 Base STR/DEX.

Fair call. I imagine there are many different ways to make a Ranger PL, and trapping is fun and useful. Bonus feat from fighter or monk is also great. Honestly I wasn't going to comment at all on the thread, but thought the dex bashing was so silly I had to.

When I ran through my ranger lives I would have loved to have been able to make a dex-based past-life build for the huge reflex bonus.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 10:47 AM
Build for 18 on a Past Life.

A fair point.


I want to dump Char and DM doesn't stack with Insightful items.

Missed in the calculations but scarcely an impact.


I want CSW and FOM.

Fair enough.


I'm done on the Dex vs Str debate I said my peace, my opinion has always been that sub level 18 Str vs Dex is a non issues after that it changes a lot.

But your opinion is clearly demonstrated to be based on no facts whatsoever and sticking with it doesn't improve your case for there being a non-issue.

In fact, there is a huge issue when main-hand attacks are >30% less damage per hit.

Even if I modify the suggested build to ranger 16/paladin 4 (to gain FOM and CSW) it still crushes the DEX build in damage. And, the build suggestion already dumps CHA and only assumes tomes and items that are fairly typical for characters anyway.

The real deciding point might be Deathdefy's comment on L18 v L20. At L18 the choice is give up DM because of reduced paladin levels or give up FoM/CSW because of reduced ranger levels. That choice might well be decided based on play style and whether FoM is available from some other source.

If the decision is to give up paladin levels then we can force the choice between DEX and STR to be much closer. I'd be inclined to argue that FoM is readily available so not valuable enough to warrant dropping paladin levels. It is after all available on a L9 item (http://ddowiki.com/page/Kundarak_Delving_Boots).

So the real choice becomes 14/4 if sticking to L18 builds v 18/0 or 17/1 or even 16/2 (assuming a rogue, rogue/fighter, rogue/monk or fighter/monk splash).


AC in heroics is more useful than epics, also reflex saves with ranger evasion are nice too - in heroics every point counts.

As has been demonstrated reflex saves are higher on the splash build. As has been already pointed out in the thread, light armor has a DEX cap to AC. DEX beyond that cap is unneeded.

Something along the lines of Rakshasa Hide is likely optimal for L18 builds. This gives a max DEX bonus of 13. DEX beyond 36 is therefore unnecessary.

By restricting builds to 18 levels final stat increases and some enhancement increases won't be available. In fact, the 44 DEX I discussed earlier might be very optimistic if ap are being spent to acquire DEX enhancements to hit/damage that Grailhawk discussed earlier.

The AC difference between 36 DEX and the achievable 32 DEX on the 12/4/4 (or 14/4 if we go with this post's discussions) is 2 AC. I've already referred readers to the Turbine calculations showing that this is a very tiny improvement in protection.

In other words, you may be correct that these things are important but the DEX approach doesn't yield higher reflex saves and gives only an extremely marginal improvement in AC all at the cost of a very substantial decrease in damage.

Bottom line remains, even with these observations taken into account, that DEX is a bad choice for this build.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 10:48 AM
Double post.

Deathdefy
08-16-2013, 10:54 AM
Something along the lines of Rakshasa Hide is likely optimal for L18 builds. This gives a max DEX bonus of 13. DEX beyond 36 is therefore unnecessary.


Eww light armour. Chaosrobe + 10 reflex version!

Havok.cry
08-16-2013, 11:13 AM
As has been demonstrated reflex saves are higher on the splash build. As has been already pointed out in the thread, light armor has a DEX cap to AC. DEX beyond that cap is unneeded.

Something along the lines of Rakshasa Hide is likely optimal for L18 builds. This gives a max DEX bonus of 13. DEX beyond 36 is therefore unnecessary.

Racial choices can modify max dex bonus. Were those calculated into your equations? Also what about the benefit of evasion? (I think strength based is better but figure you should address all aspects)

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 11:14 AM
If the decision is to give up paladin levels then we can force the choice between DEX and STR to be much closer. I'd be inclined to argue that FoM is readily available so not valuable enough to warrant dropping paladin levels. It is after all available on a L9 item (http://ddowiki.com/page/Kundarak_Delving_Boots).

So the real choice becomes 14/4 if sticking to L18 builds v 18/0 or 17/1 or even 16/2 (assuming a rogue, rogue/fighter, rogue/monk or fighter/monk splash).

It looks like you conceded that Dex vs Str is close enough at 18 if you don't have DM?

I'll take the 16/1/1 over a 14/4 any day of the week the Exploiter is a tried and tested build its been in business longer then I've been playing the game and it will continue to survive (I admit my bias to that build right now I've hand at least 2 in my stable for a very long time). 14/4 Is now an option I don't think its a bad option (I don't think its the be all end all of Ranger options but we will see, maybe.) and it is clearly a STR build, but there are other builds that that are mostly Ranger that can use Dex as a primary stat until they start looking at epic levels.

So unless you think every Ranger build ever made by anyone has to have 4 Paladin levels I think we are now on the same page?

Therigar
08-16-2013, 11:20 AM
Eww light armour. Chaosrobe + 10 reflex version!

A good choice assuming that a player has it. Since we're talking just build to reincarnate that might not be the case. Still, a good choice.

Rough calculations show that the net benefit is ~ +3 AC from using the robe in favor of the DEX character. This can be immediately made up for with paladin aura enhancements. :)

Therigar
08-16-2013, 11:29 AM
It looks like you conceded that Dex vs Str is close enough at 18 if you don't have DM?

But is stupid. Why give up DM when you don't have to? To continue to run exploiter? Now which of us is stuck in the past (as you accused me of)?

The impact of the enhancement pass is that old builds will be surpassed by new ones. Exploiter will not be better than many of those that will emerge.

It has been trivial to show that 12/4/4 blows everything you've suggested out of the water when it comes to damage, has better reflex saves AND has equal or better AC. (The one post suggesting a 2 AC advantage to DEX also avoids discussing aura enhancements for +3 AC, which would put the STR build ahead in AC as well.)

What does 12/4/4 give up? FoM, CSW? FoM isn't needed in many cases, is available on a L9 item when it is, and is generally available from some other character if really necessary as a buff. CSW is better than CMW but 4 paladin opens additional healing amp making the difference marginal at best.

You've accused me of being unable to admit to being wrong. We have seen that isn't the case. But, it does clearly apply to you since you are doing everything to hold onto your illusion that DEX based is somehow a valid choice.

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 11:39 AM
But is stupid. Why give up DM when you don't have to? To continue to run exploiter? Now which of us is stuck in the past (as you accused me of)?

The impact of the enhancement pass is that old builds will be surpassed by new ones. Exploiter will not be better than many of those that will emerge.

It has been trivial to show that 12/4/4 blows everything you've suggested out of the water when it comes to damage, has better reflex saves AND has equal or better AC. (The one post suggesting a 2 AC advantage to DEX also avoids discussing aura enhancements for +3 AC, which would put the STR build ahead in AC as well.)

What does 12/4/4 give up? FoM, CSW? FoM isn't needed in many cases, is available on a L9 item when it is, and is generally available from some other character if really necessary as a buff. CSW is better than CMW but 4 paladin opens additional healing amp making the difference marginal at best.

You've accused me of being unable to admit to being wrong. We have seen that isn't the case. But, it does clearly apply to you since you are doing everything to hold onto your illusion that DEX based is somehow a valid choice.

CMW is not good enough. And I don't think Knight of the Chalice has enough good in it to justify 22 points spent to get 10% healing Amp last I look it was T4.

Did you not read where i said "I don't think its the be all end all of Ranger options but we will see, maybe." its just going to take more then you for me to come around on it.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 11:49 AM
So unless you think every Ranger build ever made by anyone has to have 4 Paladin levels I think we are now on the same page?

No, I don't think that every build ever made needs 4 paladin levels. I just think that exploiter is no longer the best choice because I'm not living in the past but instead am looking at the future. It could well be that future ranger builds do rely on 4 paladin levels. OTOH, cleric splash for turn undead might make paladin levels just 1.

And, the future arrives Monday. :D

The number 1 appeal of exploiter is the 1 rogue level. It is compulsory. The 1 something else level can be fighter, artificer, monk, anything -- even another ranger level. But, the compulsory is 1 rogue.

I've easily shown a huge damage advantage to 12/4/4 over every build you've proposed. That advantage doesn't really exist in the current system which is why such a class split isn't being played currently.

But, the advantage will exist starting on Monday. The exploiter is a dead build. You might as well get use to that idea.

The only issue with alternatives, including the one I've thrown out as worth investigating, is gaining the most synergy out of the enhancements and finding the right racial choice.

But, we are most definitely NOT on the same page whatsoever.

To the contrary, DEX as a primary stat is almost certainly only going to come into its own for epic characters and, even there, is likely to be inferior to STR depending on ED. Players running in Fury will almost certainly still benefit more from STR than DEX -- in fact, it is hard to imagine a situation where they would not.

This means that, unless players are running very specialized flavor builds (like rogue assassins) where something other than STR is already getting the emphasis (like INT for assassins) then the benefit of DEX over STR probably never exists. Ranger builds are not in this category of very specialized flavor builds.

And, FWIW, I've argued elsewhere in the forums that DEX is not always a bad choice. If players intentionally limit themselves -- as you do by insisting on sticking with an old build concept -- then DEX might become an acceptable choice.

But, when exploiter's damage can be blown out of the water by a STR focus instead of a DEX focus there's no sense in permitting people to argue for DEX. BTW, exploiter is a STR build so recognized that STR was the better choice from the outset. ;)

Deathdefy
08-16-2013, 11:53 AM
CSW (Max + Quicken) and CMW (Max + Quicken) on the same hotbar is adequate self-healing whereas just CMW is not, even if you have +10% HAMP.

Add actually useful near-no-fail reflex saves and you're cooking.

I'm done with PLs on my main (and anything else; blerg), but by the end one of the only things I found that considerably enhanced both my enjoyment of heroic levels (and their speed via avoiding deaths more times than I could count on my hands) was Evasion and a High Reflex Save.

By "High" I mean 40. Literally exactly 40, which is really hard to do. By the end, I nearly always splashed monk to get water stance (+2 saves) as well as the single level giving (+2/+2/+2) from level 1 Monk. I also took Lightning Reflexes for another +2 (often as said Monk's bonus feat) an embarrassing amount.

What's the point of this story? I like stories.

And also, Reflex save is really, really important and if you can get it via your primary stat without being super-gimp, do it! So high up on things I consider important about a past-life that it's only beaten by "do I have monk or barbarian faster speed or at least ranger sprint boost?" and "can I self-heal?"

To me, the issue with non-dex and big (4 = big in the world of past-life builds) strange splashes is that you're gimping:
-Self-Healing
and
-Reflex Save

That's just insane to me when they're so readily available.

Marginal increases in kill speed and/or AC are light years away from the ballpark of super-important-things on a TR that self-healing and reflex save with evasion are in.

Oh, and get a Chaosrobe. It's crazy not to. The robe itself is BtA on acquire, so farm Fear Factory. The upgrade ingredients are unbound. Transfer to character via the account bank and voila. If you lack an account bank, then farm Fear Factory as soon as you are able after CL 14 (since you can only wear it then anyway).

I'm out, since I feel this post was already almost repetitious, but since it was more explicit it might be helpful.

EDIT: On damage, since this is a hang-up. Outside of IQ, vorpals. Get some vorpals. Or banishers, or disruptors. Not to say you'll need them since Dex-to-Damage with Power Attack isn't actually gimp despite this thread's aspersions, but insta-kill weapons are more efficient all around anyway.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 12:01 PM
I don't think Knight of the Chalice has enough good in it to justify 22 points spent to get 10% healing Amp last I look it was T4.

I believe that this is correct, meaning L4 paladin and 20 points spent just to access.

The thing here is that we are, at this point, just throwing about point/counter-point. If you want to pick on healing as a reason to take obviously inferior damage then I'm going to point out that 12/4/4 has options to increase healing. It is a bit of ridiculousness on both of our part. It isn't whether it is a good or smart thing to do, it is just proving that it can be done.

You are probably right, it isn't enough to justify the ap to get the healing amp. OTOH, CSW isn't enough to justify giving up >35% of your damage per hit.

The real discussion should focus on this simple mechanic -- the less time spent in combat the less demand for either AC or healing. If you want to give up ~50 points of damage per hit in order to hold onto maybe 3 more AC and maybe 50 more points of healing then go right ahead.

Personally, since I'm looking at squeezing every last bit of DEX out of the character in order to do the comparisons, I think that the delta in damage is actually higher and the AC difference lower. We already know that there's no advantage in reflex save.

Thrudh
08-16-2013, 12:02 PM
It isn't just the STR difference, it is the damage difference due to weapon choices. DEX has always been viable but suboptimal. Now it is less suboptimal. But, it is still the suboptimal choice.

To excuse that by saying DEX is viable is irresponsible. To suggest DEX instead of STR when there is no advantage to DEX at all is close to criminal.

I'm supportive of DEX builds -- I often suggest them as an alternative. But, just because they are viable that does not mean they are the best choice -- or even a good choice.

DEX builds should only be used when there is a clear advantage. Examples are monks where the synergy of DEX and WIS yields AC in the 120+ range or rogues where the DEX contributes to other essential aspects of the build (sneak for assassination).

There is no clear advantage to DEX on a ranger build. Added DEX is not needed to hit if a player decides to go AA. Since there is no intent to play at epic levels there is no need to qualify epic feats. To the contrary, AA gain more damage by being STR based without affecting the chances to hit on heroic content. And melee gains both to hit and to damage as well as working from higher damage output weapons.

DEX is as bad as I am making it out to be for this build. Not understanding that is just willful ignorance and has no basis in fact.

A little extra damage isn't needed in the heroic levels.

A high Reflex save with evasion is VERY useful in the heroic levels.

Going Dex-based does offer some advantages...

And learn to state your (certainly valid) position without putting down anyone who disagrees with you as a moron. You do that in real life too?

Friend: "Hey I think we should go to this movie".

You: "That movie is not good as this other movie, and if you don't understand that, you're just being willfully ignorant"

Friend: "Ummm... okay"

Friend (whispering to Friend2): We need to stop inviting Therigar to these things.

Thrudh
08-16-2013, 12:07 PM
The real arguments for Str over Dex are tactics

Agreed.. The only thing keeping from going Dex-based is tactics. Stunning blow offers a ridiculous amount of DPS.

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 12:11 PM
No, I don't think that every build ever made needs 4 paladin levels. I just think that exploiter is no longer the best choice because I'm not living in the past but instead am looking at the future. It could well be that future ranger builds do rely on 4 paladin levels. OTOH, cleric splash for turn undead might make paladin levels just 1.

And, the future arrives Monday. :D

The number 1 appeal of exploiter is the 1 rogue level. It is compulsory. The 1 something else level can be fighter, artificer, monk, anything -- even another ranger level. But, the compulsory is 1 rogue.

I've easily shown a huge damage advantage to 12/4/4 over every build you've proposed. That advantage doesn't really exist in the current system which is why such a class split isn't being played currently.

But, the advantage will exist starting on Monday. The exploiter is a dead build. You might as well get use to that idea.

The only issue with alternatives, including the one I've thrown out as worth investigating, is gaining the most synergy out of the enhancements and finding the right racial choice.

But, we are most definitely NOT on the same page whatsoever.

To the contrary, DEX as a primary stat is almost certainly only going to come into its own for epic characters and, even there, is likely to be inferior to STR depending on ED. Players running in Fury will almost certainly still benefit more from STR than DEX -- in fact, it is hard to imagine a situation where they would not.

This means that, unless players are running very specialized flavor builds (like rogue assassins) where something other than STR is already getting the emphasis (like INT for assassins) then the benefit of DEX over STR probably never exists. Ranger builds are not in this category of very specialized flavor builds.

And, FWIW, I've argued elsewhere in the forums that DEX is not always a bad choice. If players intentionally limit themselves -- as you do by insisting on sticking with an old build concept -- then DEX might become an acceptable choice.

But, when exploiter's damage can be blown out of the water by a STR focus instead of a DEX focus there's no sense in permitting people to argue for DEX. BTW, exploiter is a STR build so recognized that STR was the better choice from the outset. ;)

I have never said a Ranger over 18 should be Dex based. I've said that a number of time over and over. It's clear your not paying attention and hell bent on proving that you one Ranger with 4 Paladin splash is the only ranger any one should play that's a very short sighted argument.

I haven't argued a single build this whole time. My points are that
1. Sub 18 Dex is viable as a primary stat on a Ranger.
2. That 15 ranger is the sweat spot do to CSW and FOM
3. That you don't get the difference between Viable and Optimal this is also the comment that set you off I believe unfortunately its true you're stuck on the 4 Paladin being better then every thing else (it might actually be, but I wouldn't do it in you split 15/4/1 STR based Ranger/Paladin/Rogue is a better build then you're 12/4/4 CSW alone makes it better in the area of BYOH)
4. Exploiter is still a viable build though it may not be optimal.

Thrudh
08-16-2013, 12:24 PM
Also, something to keep in mind about the 12/4/4 build is that you are comparing those builds at level 20... which the OP will be at for about 5 minutes.

So compare them at levels 11-18... with limited APs... Some builds that are better at the end are not necessarily better while leveling.

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 12:33 PM
Agreed.. The only thing keeping from going Dex-based is tactics. Stunning blow offers a ridiculous amount of DPS.

Tactics favor his 4 Paladin Splash because of DM now adding to STR. The issue with 4 Paladin is its going to be hard to get a good Charisma (its doable though)

30 CON (More the better this is min to see HP over 700 at 25)
30 DEX (Ranged to Hit is still Dex so you cant Dump it like a Pld)
30+ CHA
14 WIS (enough to Cast)
12 INT (base+tomes for skill points you want UMD, Trap Skills, Jump, and Balance skills, thank god this is a ranger and not a Fighter)
And Max STR

You'll be more MAD then a PLD.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 12:43 PM
To start with, I'm glad to see others chiming in on the thread. It is straying from the original question but still remaining close enough.

Now, on to Deathdefy's post....


By "High" I mean 40. Literally exactly 40, which is really hard to do.

Ranger 12/Paladin 4/Rogue 2 (L18) -- Reflex save with paladin CHA modifier to all saves, 32 DEX and Chaosrobe (upgraded) is 41. It wasn't hard at all.

And, since this should be kept within the context of the thread itself, discussing other character classes than ranger is immaterial since that doesn't get anyone the ranger past life.

Now, I'm more interested in this observation:


CSW (Max + Quicken) and CMW (Max + Quicken) on the same hotbar is adequate self-healing whereas just CMW is not, even if you have +10% HAMP.

I'll just have to apologize up front. I've never found that I needed that much healing on heroic content. This is probably some sort of difference in how we resolve encounters. But, I've never had the need to maximize and quicken in heroic content or to run CSW on the hotbar. I seldom carry CSW on any character. I've always found CMW to be adequate.


A little extra damage isn't needed in the heroic levels.

I don't consider the difference between 75 damage and 125 damage to be a "little extra damage." It is a lot of extra damage.


And learn to state your (certainly valid) position without putting down anyone who disagrees with you as a moron. You do that in real life too?

Yes, when the person I'm talking to stubbornly holds onto their views in spite of having them methodically and factually shown to be be wrong. What do you do, cave in to their ignorance?
Also, something to keep in mind about the 12/4/4 build is that you are comparing those builds at level 20... which the OP will be at for about 5 minutes.

So compare them at levels 11-18... with limited APs... Some builds that are better at the end are not necessarily better while leveling.

In fact, we rolled back the discussion to L18 and the advantage still lies with the 12/4/- build. At L11 both builds would presumably be 1 rogue/10 ranger. Differences there would be transitory and any advantage that DEX might give would be illusory since it would be lost by L18.

Frankly, heroic content is so easy that any approach works. But, in the case of a ranger leveled for the purpose of a past life, STR is still the best option.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 12:45 PM
Racial choices can modify max dex bonus. Were those calculated into your equations? Also what about the benefit of evasion? (I think strength based is better but figure you should address all aspects)

I assumed human. One could certainly choose elf/half-elf/halfling/drow for a DEX advantage. The obvious counter is to choose half-orc for a STR advantage. As a result the assessment keeping DEX/STR neutral with respect to race is valid.

Now, if a player were compelled to choose halfling for -2 STR and +2 DEX that would shift the numbers. But, the total still favors STR in the long run.

Regarding evasion, evasion is a reflex save. The build with the highest reflex save is the better one. In the long run this is the STR build as I've shown several times in the thread.

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 12:50 PM
Yes, when the person I'm talking to stubbornly holds onto their views in spite of having them methodically and factually shown to be be wrong. What do you do, cave in to their ignorance?
I have yet to say anything that is incorrect. The reason people are coming out against you is you're coming off as an elites who things one very specific option is the only one. Viable vs Optimal.



Frankly, heroic content is so easy that any approach works. But, in the case of a ranger leveled for the purpose of a past life, STR is still the best option.
Exactly and that's why there are other viable builds.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 12:59 PM
I have never said a Ranger over 18 should be Dex based. I've said that a number of time over and over. It's clear your not paying attention and hell bent on proving that you one Ranger with 4 Paladin splash is the only ranger any one should play that's a very short sighted argument.

Honestly, I don't care what OP decides to do. I'm not proving that 4 paladin splash is the only one that should be played, I've never even suggested that.

What I said is that something new is going to come along and that 4 paladin splash is obviously superior to anything you've had to offer. I'll gladly concede that some smarter person than me will come up with the build that will replace the exploiter.


That you don't get the difference between Viable and Optimal this is also the comment that set you off I believe unfortunately its true you're stuck on the 4 Paladin being better then every thing else (it might actually be, but I wouldn't do it in you split 15/4/1 STR based Ranger/Paladin/Rogue is a better build then you're 12/4/4 CSW alone makes it better in the area of BYOH).

If by viable you mean "clearly inferior" then you are right, I don't get the difference between viable and optimal. Because DEX in this case is clearly inferior.

Viable means that it will work. And, in a broad sense I'll even concede that any build will work for heroic content. I mean, I was the one who built a 6 CON drow melee character and ran it to L20 just to prove it could be done.

In the game's context viable means close enough to optimal that the differences are trivial. We might use that to describe the lower reflex saves of your DEX suggestion or the lower AC -- yes the DEX build is lower but by only a point or two so it isn't really enough to get in a sweat over.

But, giving up 50 points of damage per hit isn't a minor difference. To put it in context, it is 67% of the total damage of the DEX build and more than a 35% loss in total damage. That isn't a trivial amount. Put it in dollars, is $125 a lot more than $75? Unless you are just independently wealthy it is a huge difference. And the same is true in the case of damage.


The only thing keeping from going Dex-based is tactics. Stunning blow offers a ridiculous amount of DPS.

Let's don't even go there. But, this might be the reason why I'm not as concerned about CSW in BYOH as others. ;)

Deathdefy
08-16-2013, 01:15 PM
Ranger 12/Paladin 4/Rogue 2 (L18) -- Reflex save with paladin CHA modifier to all saves, 32 DEX and Chaosrobe (upgraded) is 41. It wasn't hard at all.


Wait, so is this 32 dex-based or you just incidentally happened to have 32 dex? What is your Cha and what on earth is your Str if dex is somehow not your primary stat but is 32? I'm afraid without showing your stat and tome assumptions I struggle to get on board here.

I don't understand what you're saying beyond agreeing with me that being dex-based is necessary to hit 41 reflex.





And, since this should be kept within the context of the thread itself, discussing other character classes than ranger is immaterial since that doesn't get anyone the ranger past life.


What? I was saying splashing 1 Monk is good for reflex. On any life. Including a Ranger life. Like this one.





I'll just have to apologize up front. I've never found that I needed that much healing on heroic content. This is probably some sort of difference in how we resolve encounters. But, I've never had the need to maximize and quicken in heroic content or to run CSW on the hotbar. I seldom carry CSW on any character. I've always found CMW to be adequate.


I 100% agree that 99% of Heroic is trivial. But, at level 18,
-Elite ETK rolling a 1 on a fireball wants quickened CSW then quickened CMW spam, possibly multiple times as you run screaming around the lava moat.
-Ditto MoTS if you're kiting sannyasi, or get cometfalled or just swarmed earlier.
-Ditto Yaulthoon fight,
-Ditto IQ at times if you do it.
-Lord of Eyes end fight I've wanted it (stupid billion eyes).
-Acute delirium
-Ice Flensers with their polar ray even these days.
-Certainly the Red Name at the end of Running With the Devils when you're just trading blows for 200 point light Rays.

It's not about the easy content, it's about saving your buns on the very odd occasion when without it you'd die, which indeed, shouldn't be often.

Having said that "never having the need to have maximize quickened CSW on your hotbar" is a huge statement that I just can't empathize with, so despite considering myself reasonably good at this game, you may be a significant cut above myself. Or it was hyperbole.

I will speak for the masses and say the situations I have outlined above do actually occur for most players.



I don't consider the difference between 75 damage and 125 damage to be a "little extra damage." It is a lot of extra damage.


Instakill weapons when things are under 1000HP. That's the whole of heroic apart from IQ. I have no idea why vorpals, banishers, smiters and disruptors are out of vogue generally, but I assure you that TR-vunderkind carry a full stable of these.

Damage doesn't matter. Again, damage doesn't matter.

All these things are very easily available, and weapon choice is largely irrelevant, so the Auction House's 6k plat +1 Acid Light Mace of Banishing is pimp even in Elite RWTD.

These forums genuinely do shock me at times, and the idea that damage per swing in heroics matters even faintly for choosing a past-life build is one of those disheartening occasions. Saying that is important is bad.

Survivability, both for new players and experienced players running a fast TR life, is infinitely more important while these weapon mods exist.




Yes, when the person I'm talking to stubbornly holds onto their views in spite of having them methodically and factually shown to be be wrong. What do you do, cave in to their ignorance?


I had intended to quit this discussion but my return is proof of my answer to this question.




In fact, we rolled back the discussion to L18 and the advantage still lies with the 12/4/- build.

Nah. I don't believe reflex (which at best is on par with no-fail saves, though I truly don't think the 12/4/2 thing is on par), and you've conceded self-healing.




At L11 both builds would presumably be 1 rogue/10 ranger. Differences there would be transitory and any advantage that DEX might give would be illusory since it would be lost by L18.


Assertion. "Would not" is a sufficient rebuttal.




Frankly, heroic content is so easy that any approach works. But, in the case of a ranger leveled for the purpose of a past life, STR is still the best option.

Assertion. "Would not" is a sufficient rebuttal.

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 01:21 PM
If by viable you mean "clearly inferior" then you are right, I don't get the difference between viable and optimal. Because DEX in this case is clearly inferior.

It is not 'clearly Inferior' if you are not splashing Paladin for DM. You seam to have admitted that even here.


If the decision is to give up paladin levels then we can force the choice between DEX and STR to be much closer. I'd be inclined to argue that FoM is readily available so not valuable enough to warrant dropping paladin levels. It is after all available on a L9 item (http://ddowiki.com/page/Kundarak_Delving_Boots).

Of course the problem is



But is stupid. Why give up DM when you don't have to? To continue to run exploiter? Now which of us is stuck in the past (as you accused me of)?


Honestly, I don't care what OP decides to do. I'm not proving that 4 paladin splash is the only one that should be played, I've never even suggested that.

Those two sentences contradict each other you think any one who doesn't splash for DM is "stupid" you have suggested that.

Carpone
08-16-2013, 01:34 PM
In the past month I capped a STR-based Human 11 Ranger/9 Monk twice for Ranger past lives while keeping an elite bravery bonus the entire time. Damage avoidance is great with Ninja Spy and Improved Evasion, and healing with Empower Heal Spell + Devotion enhancements made it easy. There's no rocket science involved here. I was either using handwraps (I have quite a collection), or a crafted quarterstaff when I wanted AE damage. My Reflex save was ~31 at level 18, which includes a +5 Resistance item and Greater Heroism.

Edit: Gear wise, I always had 20% healing amp starting with Levik's Bracers at level 13. At 16 I had 10% and 20% hamp from Dragontouched robes, 30% from Human and 20% from Monk. Ranger healing spells go a long way in heroic content when you stack healing amp.

Therigar
08-16-2013, 02:25 PM
I have real life which is going to impact my continued participation in this discussion. I will be out of town with my daughter at a soccer tournament and then we have friends from Germany arriving. I won't be back until late Sunday if I manage to steal time for DDO at all.

The answers to stat questions and my assumptions about them are elsewhere in this thread. Some of them are optimistic because they require gutting a lot of the enhancement choices. OTOH, I applied the same standard in pushing the DEX build numbers to 44.

A recap from starting stats of 16/14/16/14/8/8 at L18:

STR

16 base
04 stat increases
04 tome
05 enhancements
06 Divine Might (8 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 exception + 2 insight + 1 enhancement)
06 stat item
01 exceptional stat item
02 insight stat item
02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
02 Ram's Might
02 Rage
--
50 -> +20

CHA

08 base
04 tome
06 item
01 exceptional
02 insight
01 enhancement
--
22 -> +6

DEX

14 base
04 tome
06 item
01 exceptional
02 insight
03 enhancement
--
30 -> +10

Note that while ap heavy and gutting enhancements to get the stat enhancements that this is achievable on 12/4/4. Values after more serious consideration and at L18 with the reduced ap might be slightly lower.

Carpone, ranger 11/monk 9 is one of the builds I suggested to OP early in the discussion. In spite of contrary opinions from other posters if I were to push a build that is the one I would push. OTOH, I'm a monk player and prefer them for most things. Monk 9/anything 11 is my default for past lives -- problematic for a couple of classes but generally my preference. ;)

Therigar
08-16-2013, 02:29 PM
Those two sentences contradict each other you think any one who doesn't splash for DM is "stupid" you have suggested that.

Didn't suggest it, said it. Until you provide a build that gives more damage per hit the statement will remain true.

That doesn't contradict that I don't care what OP decides. People are free to make stupid decisions if they choose. Many of the assumptions I make in the 12/4/4 are stupid when weighed against the ap cost and what is skipped in the enhancement trees.

Anyway, as I said a moment ago, I have real life to get to. On Monday we'll see what the real builders come up with as the update hits.

Until then, as long as viable means vastly inferior you win. I know that will make you happy. ;)

Deathdefy
08-16-2013, 02:57 PM
3 x Insightful Stat, 3 x Exceptional Stat


That's some impressive Insightful / Exceptional gear slottage for level 18!

Literally impossible even without gimping up a greensteel weapon with Insightful and exceptional stat bonuses instead of damage and permanently holding it, which ruins the damage per swing claims I imagine.

I suspect 5 str enhancements, 1 cha enhancement, and 3 dex enhancements is also in the literally impossible basket, though I'm not going to mock up enhancement trees to find out.

Anyway, my grave doubts as to your ability to pull off no-fail except on a 1 reflex saves remain. Not that you need to to reach 20, not that strength base is gimp or laughable, but I would much rather run a Dex based Ranger than the Paladin splash thing that requires very onerous (read 'impossible') gearing and enhancements for moderate dps gain (though your calcs didn't give the Dex build power attack even?) and massive self-healing detriments.

On 11 Ranger / 9 Monk:

I can see if you're stacking H-Amp that 11 Ranger / 7 Monk at 18 makes sense too. Obviously there's no ToD or Improved Evasion while levelling though, which was another part of the 'here's what it looks like at 20' silliness early on in the thread that inspired me to mire myself in this thread.

I don't know. If you have the H-Amp I can see how that would be very enjoyable; and probably comparable in the two areas I care most about being on a TR being Self-Healing and Evasion.

No hate from me on it. I also love ninja-spy and think that's probably a pimp split.

I appreciate you're off IRL Therigar, and I'm going to sleep. Have a good trip. This isn't intended as a sneaky last word, so reply when you're back if you still care and I will do similarly if I still care haha.

Grailhawk
08-16-2013, 03:24 PM
STR

16 base
04 stat increases
04 tome
05 enhancements
06 Divine Might (8 base + 4 tome + 6 item + 1 exception + 2 insight + 1 enhancement)
06 stat item
01 exceptional stat item
02 insight stat item
02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
02 Ram's Might
02 Rage
--
50 -> +20


At this time Divine Might is an insight bonus it will not stack with the +2 Insightful Strength Stat Item your down two and have spend 22 AP in Knights of the Chalice to get +2 Str that's a waist IMO. 4 DM+2Rage+2Rams+2Enh = 10 that's +5 Damage over a Dex based Exploiter and the Exploiter has 1 more favored enemy cutting that down to only +3 damage bonus. A tradition Exploiter will come out +1 lower vs favored enemy and probably have have more Sneak attack then your 12/4/2 because of Deepwood sniper and more AP to spend on better things then +2 Str.

Also I already showed that +5 Damage is about 1 second difference in killing something around Lv16 might go to 2 at Lv18.

My take on ENH for a 16/1/1 (others will want more out of AA i Like all the SA in Deeepwood)

03 Ap Ninja Spy +1d6 SA
03 AP Assasin +1d6 SA
22 AP Deepwood Stalker +4d6 (3 in Core 1 in tier 3 Stealth), +75 Devotion, Called Shot, Aimed Shot, Thrill of the Hunt
27 AP Tempest 100% Offhand, +4 Hit/Damage, +6 PRR, 30% Haste Boost, +2 Str (@20 +10 PRR, Improved Evastion, 5% Double Strike)
17 Ap Human 30% Hamp, Damage Boost, +1 Str, Skill Boost, Action Surge +2 Con/Str

Therigar
08-19-2013, 09:00 AM
I know that most of this becomes moot with the update. And, I have been having fun watching how some people (Grailhawk) keep jumping back and forth among builds trying to get one that fits their need.

Still, I'll take time to make final observations from my perspective.

Critiques of my optimistic numbers look to be valid. Let me see if I can provide more realistic numbers for everyone. BTW, I do include Power Attack in damage calculations (and have been doing so).

For a DEX build at ranger 18:

18 base
04 tome
04 stat increases
03 enhancements* (1 human and 2 ranger)
06 stat item
01 exceptional stat item
02 ship buff (lesser dexterity shrine)
--
38 -> +14 damage

Damage calculation for DEX build:

14 DEX damage
05 weapon bonus
08 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 ranger whirling blades
02 Ram's Might
02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
--
40 added damage

Revised calculation using seeker 6 for Lit II scimitar:

0.65(45.25) + 0.3(2(51.25)) + 0.95(10.5) + 0.3(11) + 0.05(14) = 74.1375 or ~74.

STR calculation for Ranger 12/Rogue 2/Paladin 4:

16 base
04 stat increases
04 tome
05 Divine Might**
06 stat item
01 exceptional stat item
02 enhancement (ranger)
02 ship buff (lesser strength shrine)
02 Ram's Might
02 Rage
--
42 -> +17 damage

Damage calculation:

16 STR damage
05 weapon bonus
06 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 ranger whirling blades
02 Ram's Might
04 Exalted Smite
02 ship buff (Darguun Hobgoblin)
--
44 added damage

Revised calculation using Exhalted Smite and adding 2d6 sneak attack damage from rogue 2 and seeker 6 for Lit II khopesh:

.65(51.75) + 0.2(5(57.75) + 0.95(17.5) + 0.3(44) + 0.05(14) = 115.3125 or ~115.

The damage per hit is 74 for the DEX build v 115 for the STR build. Against a 700 hp mob (the original example) that is 10 hits for the DEX build v 7 for the STR build. This is ~30% faster to kill the mob with the STR build.

The objections have been that AC and reflex saves would be worse. That isn't true either.

Reflex save for the DEX build assuming ranger 18:

11 base (ranger)
14 DEX modifier
10 Chaosrobe
02 insightful reflexes
03 ranger improved reactions
--
40 reflex save

DEX calculations for Ranger 12/Rogue 2/Paladin 4:

14 base
04 tome
06 item
01 exception
01 enhancement (ranger)
--
26 -> +8

Reflex save calculation:

13 base (ranger/rogue/paladin)
08 DEX bonus
10 Chaosrobe
05 CHA bonus (paladin)
02 insightful reflexes
03 ranger improved reactions
--
40 -> reflex save

We'll assume this is moot since the target is 40 and both builds are there.

AC calculations for ranger 18:

10 base
08 bracers
14 DEX modifier
02 protection item
05 ranger improved defense
--
39 AC

AC*** calculations for ranger 12/rogue 2/paladin 4

10 base
08 bracers
09 DEX modifier
02 protection item
03 paladin sacred armor mastery
05 ranger improved defense
06 paladin bulwark aura
--
43 AC

This is 4 points higher AC for the multiclass build.

Now, the final objections that will be raise will have to do with enhancement choices. I can appreciate that since there is nowhere else for proponents of the DEX build to retreat on this debate.

As laid out here, the multiclass build that I set up on Lamannia (to double check that everything is possible on the same build) still has 9ap available to spend.

In any case, new update. It has been a fun debate but today brings time for sitting in game rather than debating builds. Will be that way for a while, at least for me.

---------
Notes:

* Grailhawk's initial "realistic" numbers for L18 character with DEX focus is 3 enhancement points to DEX.

** CHA calculations for Ranger 12/Rogue 2/Paladin 4 to determine STR insight bonus:

CHA:

08 base
04 tome
06 item
01 exception
01 enhancement (human)
--
20 -> +5

*** AC for multiclass could also include combat expertise when AC is of critical importance as suggested build has both power attack for damage and combat expertise for AC and can use whichever is most appropriate for the moment.