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Lanhelin
08-02-2013, 12:59 PM
Hello,

I play two Wizards (one Evo oriented, one CC oriented, Level 14 and 10) and every time I play, I notice a severe Mana problem. The costs of the spells are too high because the overall Mana-pool is too low (even with Archmage enhancement taken), especially when the spells are augmented with maximise/heighten/extend and so on. There should be a possibility to recharge Mana besides the Shrines, which are only usable once in Elite difficulty.

I think we should be able to regenerate Mana/Health by using food in Dungeons like we can buy and consume in Inns. They should be very expensive and be limited to 1 or 2 pieces of each, to not make dungeons too easy but not doable on the other side. There is the Druid Ability called "Goodberry" which has no purpose right now. The berries should be tradeable within dungeons and have the same effect like the expensive foods mentioned above.

They should not fill up Health and Mana Bar complete, but only to the half or 75%, so they are not as valuable as a Shrine or resting in an Inn. This would make gameplay more comfortable for Mana Classes and won't corrupt D&D rules either.

Thank you for reading and replies welcome!

Paryan
08-02-2013, 02:09 PM
Hello,

I play two Wizards (one Evo oriented, one CC oriented, Level 14 and 10) and every time I play, I notice a severe Mana problem. The costs of the spells are too high because the overall Mana-pool is too low (even with Archmage enhancement taken), especially when the spells are augmented with maximise/heighten/extend and so on. There should be a possibility to recharge Mana besides the Shrines, which are only usable once in Elite difficulty.

I think we should be able to regenerate Mana/Health by using food in Dungeons like we can buy and consume in Inns. They should be very expensive and be limited to 1 or 2 pieces of each, to not make dungeons too easy but not doable on the other side. There is the Druid Ability called "Goodberry" which has no purpose right now. The berries should be tradeable within dungeons and have the same effect like the expensive foods mentioned above.

They should not fill up Health and Mana Bar complete, but only to the half or 75%, so they are not as valuable as a Shrine or resting in an Inn. This would make gameplay more comfortable for Mana Classes and won't corrupt D&D rules either.

Thank you for reading and replies welcome!

I can understand the frustration or running out of SP, but there are other options than regeneration. The possibility of running out of SP allows a player to learn to play smarter and conserve resources. By allowing easy SP regeneration, a class that is arguably already overpowered just became nigh invincible. Some options that may help:

Asking: Do I need to kill this.....can I invis/run past it? Can a web/disco ball slow it down while I keep going? Does everything need to be killed? Does this party member really need this buff or need it extended? Also, you can put the same spell with all the mods (extend/maximize/heighten etc.) on your hotbar, and also put a normal version of the spell....use the right one at the right time so you're not wasting SP unnecessarily.

Also, SP pots drop in chests, or can be bought from the DDO store. The twelve trader in the market also will trade SP consumables for planar shards.

Other clicky items restore sp too.....the archivist necklace form korthos, ring of spell storing from the desert, mysterious bauble from Amrath....there are a few others too iirc.

Do you have the highest wizardy/power item you can use (even if just at the beginning of a quest/before shrining for buffs?)

Lastly, there are a few items that restore SP when getting hit such as the torc from the demon queen raid and crafting a con-op green steel item in the shroud (13th eclipse raid).

Part of learning a blue bar means learning to conserve what you have for when it's really needed. Making it near limitless really negates challenge. I apologize if you knew about all this stuff, but pointing out that the game has options to prolong a blue bar, and many on these forums would argue there's more than enough options already.

EDIT: Some of the options I listed will only be available to you at higher levels. IF you have good buffs running too, don't be afraid to cast masters touch and pull out a TH weapon while using divine power clickys.....it's all about conserving spell points.....that mob with a sliver remaining might be melee'd rather than overkilled with an empowered/maxed fireball.

Happy adventuring.

Paryan
08-02-2013, 03:33 PM
Also forgot to add echos of power. Not a lot of SP, but it may allow you to cast a non-heightened web or un-extended exp. retreat to help you get away in a hurry.

Lanhelin
08-02-2013, 05:01 PM
Asking: Do I need to kill this.....can I invis/run past it?

So this is your advice? To new players like me? Do I need to play the game or should I just avoid game? Just curious, but let me learn.

All you said is blablabla, I know these things and it's not getting better knowing these things. What would be better, would be to regenerate Mana/Health in a D&D conform way.

Paryan
08-02-2013, 05:58 PM
So this is your advice? To new players like me? Do I need to play the game or should I just avoid game? Just curious, but let me learn.

All you said is blablabla, I know these things and it's not getting better knowing these things. What would be better, would be to regenerate Mana/Health in a D&D conform way.

Just wow.

My advice was to offer ways to conserve SP as I feel regenerating is an "easy button." I never said to not play the game, but to look at other ways to deal with an encounter. You yourself say you're a new player, so you MAY NOT have know about these things. Hence why I posted them. Just because one doesn't have the sp/means to kill everything, that doesn't mean there is no solution.

It also doesn't mean you should be given even easier access to more SP because you may have used it up earlier. At cap, some characters have 3 to almost 5K (in some cases) SP.....your solution would give them 1-2 free doses of another 2.25-4ish between shrines....that's just a tad overpowered.....by a lot.

You said replies welcome, but really meant to say only replies that agreed....in that case....

not signed.

enochiancub
08-02-2013, 06:10 PM
So this is your advice? To new players like me? Do I need to play the game or should I just avoid game? Just curious, but let me learn.

All you said is blablabla, I know these things and it's not getting better knowing these things. What would be better, would be to regenerate Mana/Health in a D&D conform way.

Considering the wording in your original post, Parayan gave you fantastic advice. I do hope your attitude here changes for the better.

As for the desire for more/easier spell point regeneration, I personally don't agree as resource management is integral to DDO.

ssgcmwatson
08-02-2013, 07:40 PM
Also, SP pots drop in chests, or can be bought from the DDO store. The twelve trader in the market also will trade SP consumables for planar shards.


Paryan gave a ton of great advice. Just to expand on this part, you can also check the AH for SP pots, or put a WTB post in the trade channel. I've had melee types in quests give me SP pots unasked simply because I take good care of them.

Also, think about using wands or scrolls for buffs and saving your SP for CC and attacking bad guys.

Another tip - carry a cleric hireling with Divine Vitality. If really necessary, you can dismiss your hireling, take a Dimension Door back to start, wait 5 min, and resummon with a new set of DVs. If you don't mind spending the plat, you can take multiple contracts of the same hireling and as soon as Contract A is out of DVs dismiss it, take DD and immediately resummon. Yes, you'll have some running to do, but mobs don't respawn in most quests.

Are you checking the math on your metamagic feats? For many low-level spells it often makes more sense from an SP perspective to cast them twice rather than use empower and/or maximize.

Paryan
08-02-2013, 10:59 PM
Paryan gave a ton of great advice. Just to expand on this part, you can also check the AH for SP pots, or put a WTB post in the trade channel. I've had melee types in quests give me SP pots unasked simply because I take good care of them.

Also, think about using wands or scrolls for buffs and saving your SP for CC and attacking bad guys.

Another tip - carry a cleric hireling with Divine Vitality. If really necessary, you can dismiss your hireling, take a Dimension Door back to start, wait 5 min, and resummon with a new set of DVs. If you don't mind spending the plat, you can take multiple contracts of the same hireling and as soon as Contract A is out of DVs dismiss it, take DD and immediately resummon. Yes, you'll have some running to do, but mobs don't respawn in most quests.

Are you checking the math on your metamagic feats? For many low-level spells it often makes more sense from an SP perspective to cast them twice rather than use empower and/or maximize.

Forgot about the cleric hirelings with DV....knew i was missing some good ones. Thanks for adding.

Zibowskij
08-03-2013, 12:10 AM
You also mentioned Archmage enhancements. Archmage gets SLAs (Spell Like Abilities), which are a really cheap version of your usual arcane spells - depending on which school you took - on which you can apply metamagics for free.
On a side note, try to be a little more humble, someone took some of his time to help you by replying to your post. There's no need to treat people the way you treated Paryan, after all the advices he gave you.
And invisi running is far from not playing, in some cases it's playing smart.

Lanhelin
08-03-2013, 01:53 AM
On a side note, try to be a little more humble, someone took some of his time to help you by replying to your post. There's no need to treat people the way you treated Paryan, after all the advices he gave you.

Is this the New Players seeking help subforum or the Suggestion/Ideas subforum? Thank you all for your advices, perhaps the mana problem will be gone in higher levels thanks to some clickies, but right now I do have this problem. Advicing to play invisible and/or not to kill enemies feels like I should better play a rogue sneaking all the way through the dungeon. I use CC too but there also exists a bug, that leaving a dungeon with all tasks completed but charmed mobs remaining in it won't count for anything as if you had never been in there. So I try to leave a mob-free dungeon, which leads to my mana-problem. It could be solved by reducing the saves of mobs, but it could also be solved by getting more mana, which for a Wizard is the primary ressource - without it a Wizard is no Wizard anymore.

I always have a cleric hireling with DV, my suggestion would be to have the possibility for something like DV without having a cleric hireling but using "Goodberries" or some other food. Would this really be so op?

RyonsAlt
08-03-2013, 02:24 AM
<snip>

This may be the suggestions forum, but advice that enhances gameplay is not limited in its sources.

1) Are you running solo? Or in a party?

If solo then if you're a new player you don't have the same gear True Reincarnated characters do that enable them to solo certain dungeons, their experience, or their knowledge. The lack thereof creates a lot of difficulty for some.

If you're running in a party then I would stop worrying about kill count and worry more about completing the dungeon in an efficient manner. Some pale masters and necro specced casters would disagree with me, but it's okay to let the melees get a few kills :)

2) As for your suggestion of food/drink in quests, I'm going to disagree. Casters have already received multiple tools for conserving spell points and reducing mana costs. ALL level one spells used to cost 10 spell points flat, then go up 5 spell points every spell level. Turbine adjusted those SP values so casters could go a little further with their spell points.

Echoes of Power was also added so that you will always have some spell points to use on SLAs or unmeta'd spells such as scorching ray, magic missile, frost lance, and lightning bolt.

SLAs were added to FURTHER the mileage that casters can get with their SP allowing them to have select spells to have longer cooldowns, but be unaffected by increased meta costs or anti-magic field.

Casters are fine with their spell points, if you're running into problems with SP conservation then it is to your benefit to improvise, adapt, and overcome.

Zibowskij
08-03-2013, 03:56 AM
Is this the New Players seeking help subforum or the Suggestion/Ideas subforum? Thank you all for your advices, perhaps the mana problem will be gone in higher levels thanks to some clickies, but right now I do have this problem. Advicing to play invisible and/or not to kill enemies feels like I should better play a rogue sneaking all the way through the dungeon. I use CC too but there also exists a bug, that leaving a dungeon with all tasks completed but charmed mobs remaining in it won't count for anything as if you had never been in there. So I try to leave a mob-free dungeon, which leads to my mana-problem. It could be solved by reducing the saves of mobs, but it could also be solved by getting more mana, which for a Wizard is the primary ressource - without it a Wizard is no Wizard anymore.

I always have a cleric hireling with DV, my suggestion would be to have the possibility for something like DV without having a cleric hireling but using "Goodberries" or some other food. Would this really be so op?

WOW... so even if as you said you're new, you already know everything, right? If you have a problem at that level range and you can't solo quests with a wizard, it means that you are missing something. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you must solo everything, but that it can be done, and if you can't it's not Turbine's fault for not giving you more sp or sp regeneration. Simply you still haven't learned how to manage your sp. So absolutely /not signed for your easy button requests.
Again about invisi, no one said anything about running every quest invisi'ed, no one suggested for example to run Kobold Assault that way... it's simply a matter of reading the situation and adapt your strategy. But of course if you start with the assumption that you already know everything and that it's other people/devs fault for everything, you'll never try anything new.

bsquishwizzy
08-09-2013, 02:44 PM
I personally like the idea stated in the OP. That being said, I don't think *** is workable. DDO is far too invested in SP pots and health pots through the store to change direction at this point.

danotmano1998
08-09-2013, 02:58 PM
Hello,
I think we should be able to regenerate Mana/Health by using food in Dungeons like we can buy and consume in Inns.

Thank you for reading and replies welcome!

I disagree. After playing a wizard through to cap a few times now, I find the class to be quite acceptable as far as Spell Points go.
Above posters gave lots of ideas as to how you can make your existing pool last longer, and they are all excellent.

The biggest advantage you will get will be practice and knowing the dungeons. When you know how many/how far the shrines are, you can scale your usage to match. Plus you get a feel for which spells work best in different situations and against which enemies.

You can buy stuff from the DDO store to regenerate spell points and health if that's your preference already.
Good luck and happy adventuring!

Lanhelin
08-09-2013, 06:46 PM
The biggest advantage you will get will be practice and knowing the dungeons. When you know how many/how far the shrines are, you can scale your usage to match. Plus you get a feel for which spells work best in different situations and against which enemies.

Probably. But what as long as I'm new to them? E.g. recently I did the Restless Isle Pre on Elite, where there's only one shrine on the whole map and too much mobs before and after. I consumed all the regular SP potions I found earlier, I used the Divine Vitality of my Cleric Hire, I even released her, dimensiondoored back, waited 5 Minutes, recalled her to use DV again and continued, but it was just frustrating. Why this effort, what is it good for? Shouldn't there be possibilities to get SP from more sources than offered at present? I mean, SP are not about Skill. If you greater cleave on one mob only, then GC eventually was wasted but doesn't have any effect besides a short cooldown. But if you want to charm a Mob and it resists even a heightened and focused spell (and there are cooldowns too), it has more impact because it doesn't do anything but reducing the SP pool, which is the primary source for caster classes to be able to do what they are expected for, but if low or nothing left it restricts their actions approximately to zero.

And then there's this Druid Ability named "Goodberry" which should be buffed and made group relevant, because actually it has no purpose. Make it tradeable and make it consumable within dungeons aside from shrines and offer weaker dungeon-food to buy in bars and similar-to-druid-ability powerful food in the shop, please.

danotmano1998
08-09-2013, 07:28 PM
Probably. But what as long as I'm new to them?

You run them on normal. Or hard, if you feel like a challenge.
Once you understand them, THEN you run it on elite.

They call it a "Bravery Bonus" for a reason.
You don't HAVE to start on elite.
Heck, there's even casual if you want to just practice it.



And then there's this Druid Ability named "Goodberry" which should be buffed and made group relevant, because actually it has no purpose. Make it tradeable and make it consumable within dungeons aside from shrines and offer weaker dungeon-food to buy in bars and similar-to-druid-ability powerful food in the shop, please.

I completely agree that it is worthless, for the most part. It saves you a few platinum from a bar.
I don't know what the developers were thinking there. But then, there's always the Role Playing crowd. Maybe they use it to have their version of fun. Who am I to judge?

Happy Adventuring!

Lanhelin
08-09-2013, 08:09 PM
You run them on normal. Or hard, if you feel like a challenge.

All quests on casual/normal are boring. Hard makes fun but is boring too most of the time. Elite makes more fun. When I did the Level 10 Restless Isle Pre I was Level 12. And I did it already before with another toon on Level 14. Both toons are casters but the effort is ridiculous. And that's not the only one quest designed like this.

I guess because you (and all the other nicks who posted) suffered from hard gameplay, so you won't allow new players to do the same stuff more comfortable, am I right?



Who am I to judge?

Do not judge. Suggest! :)


Edit: And Goodberries should be buffed, tradable and consumable besides shrines.

Lanhelin
08-18-2013, 05:05 PM
K, seem's I'm right. But it's pretty poor to not support a suggestion because you all suffered the same hardness. Though I can accept it. Never mind. Turbine, leave the Goodberries as useless as they are, please.

Zibowskij
08-18-2013, 07:20 PM
K, seem's I'm right. But it's pretty poor to not support a suggestion because you all suffered the same hardness. Though I can accept it. Never mind. Turbine, leave the Goodberries as useless as they are, please.


http://youtu.be/IUttbZcv7WI

FreeMemory
08-19-2013, 04:38 AM
The costs of the spells are too high because the overall Mana-pool is too low (even with Archmage enhancement taken), especially when the spells are augmented with maximise/heighten/extend and so on. There should be a possibility to recharge Mana besides the Shrines, which are only usable once in Elite difficulty.
...
All you said is blablabla, I know these things and it's not getting better knowing these things.
...
But what as long as I'm new to them? E.g. recently I did the Restless Isle Pre on Elite, where there's only one shrine on the whole map and too much mobs before and after.
...
I mean, SP are not about Skill.
...
All quests on casual/normal are boring. Hard makes fun but is boring too most of the time. Elite makes more fun. When I did the Level 10 Restless Isle Pre I was Level 12. And I did it already before with another toon on Level 14. Both toons are casters but the effort is ridiculous. And that's not the only one quest designed like this.

...you won't allow new players to do the same stuff more comfortable, am I right?

But it's pretty poor to not support a suggestion because you all suffered the same hardness.


As for the suggestion, "not signed". SP does not need to be changed. It would make the game too easy.


You don't don't like normal and hard because it's too boring. You don't like elite because it's too hard (at least more challenging elite quests). Because you want to solo elite everything without "hardness", you want them to change SP rules. Elite is supposed to be very hard. That's why it is a level above "hard".


Many quests are designed to require a full group - especially on elite. This keeps them from being "boring". If you can solo them anyway, that's great. But don't expect to have the rules changed just so everything can be run solo elite with no "hardness". That's what elite means - lots of "hardness". Some quests have limited shrines, some have extremely deadly traps, some require the party to split up. These are all challenges to keep them from being "boring".


When you post a suggestion, you want to have others post agreement. But when others disagree, so the devs see it's not such a good idea. Maybe you say, "SP are not about Skill". But most repliers here, even though they disagree with the suggestion, they tried to help show you that SP management really is about skill. Some dungeons are designed to really challenge that skill, so it won't be boring. Otherwise they would just add more shrines to the quest, with no need to change SP rules.


You may not be able to solo everything on elite. If it is too hard on elite, you can either run it on lower difficulty, or find a group to help you. Three wizards have 3 times as many spell points! But elite difficulty is intended so that a full, balanced, well-coordinated group should be able to complete the quest while still finding it challenging enough to not be "boring".

Lanhelin
08-22-2013, 09:16 AM
As for the suggestion, "not signed". SP does not need to be changed. It would make the game too easy.

/snip

I have never suggested to change SP. I have suggested to make the Druid Ability "Goodberries" useful along with an option that would give players without this ability a similar usefulness. Instead of walking/porting to the entrance and refilling the SP Bar with Divine Vitality from different Cleric Hires, the suggestion was about getting the same effect in another way. So saying "yes" to divine vitality at the entrance or distributed by gold hires, but saying "no" to the use of Goodberries/food is a logic I do not understand - except it derives from "easiness envy".

I have never stated that I don't like boring things, otherwise I would not play a MMO with several repeating elements :p But the hardness on elite difficulty should not result from hindering classes to be played as they were intended. SP based classes are supposed to use their SP, I'd think, not not using them. It'd be like a rogue with all the points he could get and put into Hide and Move silent, but can't sneak, because he's always detected. Sure he can wield a Greataxe instead, but it's not very rogue-ish playstyle. Or a Fighter not able to bluff-pull single mobs because all groups are linked.
SP based classes suffer even more because of saving throws, especially regarding CC spells, that don't even have a halfed effect (half duration e.g.) but do nothing else than prinking the screen with some additional graphics and leeching SP of course. And there's even no way for me as player to be able to say: yes, this amount of DC is enough, or this metamagic is sufficient that mobs won't save in this particular dungeon on that particular difficulty. So it's a pure matter of luck. And this luck/bad luck should be balanced by more options to refill the SP bar and not by Greataxes or Invisibility.