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View Full Version : Epic levels should give 4 more APs each!



Delacroix21
07-28-2013, 12:56 AM
Epic levels seem to add very little to the player, and we need more of a reason to be excited about further level cap increases. I believe each epic level should add another 4 APs each. This will help with the scarcity of APs in general and make gaining an Epic level feel a bit more, well, Epic! :)

Thrudh
07-28-2013, 01:02 AM
Epic levels seem to add very little to the player, and we need more of a reason to be excited about further level cap increases. I believe each epic level should add another 4 APs each. This will help with the scarcity of APs in general and make gaining an Epic level feel a bit more, well, Epic! :)

32 more AP is crazy too much...

But just 1 AP per epic level would be useful... 8 more AP is enough to get me a few extra nice things... 32 more would let me get EVERYTHING I want.

I vote for 1 AP per epic level.

FreeMemory
07-28-2013, 06:37 AM
Not to be greedy, but because some of the top core enhancements require as high as level 25 (i.e. elven AA), there should be at least one AP per level.

FranOhmsford
07-28-2013, 06:50 AM
32 more AP is crazy too much...

But just 1 AP per epic level would be useful... 8 more AP is enough to get me a few extra nice things... 32 more would let me get EVERYTHING I want.

I vote for 1 AP per epic level.

4 may possibly be too high {not in my opinion but ok}.

BUT

1 is definitely too Low! {Yeah I know we get nothing as is but that's not the point}


So - Let's settle on 2 AP per Epic Level eh?

+ Added Spells castable per day for ALL Caster Classes!
- 3 at each Epic Lvl for Clerics, Druids & Wizards {only one can be added per level of Spell}
- 2 at each Epic Lvl for Sorcs, Souls, Bards & Artis {see above}
- 1 at each Epic Lvl for Paladins & Rangers {give them Access to ALL Divine Spells of Lvls 1 to 5 to choose from}

+ One more Feat at Lvls 24 & 28 for Fighters, Barbs & Rogues {Class Feats choosable from a Specific List!}

Gwyxxx
07-28-2013, 06:54 AM
Signed for ap for epic levels.

I don't know how they could give us spell and feats when epic levels are generic levels... maybe in future...

FranOhmsford
07-28-2013, 06:57 AM
Signed for ap for epic levels.

I don't know how they could give us spell and feats when epic levels are generic levels... maybe in future...

Generic yes but surely the devs can spice them up a bit?

A Small Boost depending on what Heroic class/es that player has!

Minimum 11 Levels in a Class to gain said Boost if you like THOUGH I'd drop that as low as 6 personally.

Dandonk
07-28-2013, 06:57 AM
32 more AP is crazy too much...

But just 1 AP per epic level would be useful... 8 more AP is enough to get me a few extra nice things... 32 more would let me get EVERYTHING I want.

I vote for 1 AP per epic level.

This sounds useful and yet not too over the top OP. I could agree to this.

Mister_Shevek
07-28-2013, 09:34 AM
Current limit of 80 ap is fine. I know that more ap would be welcome in ALL builds (thus most players would be open to the idea of more ap) but these games are about hard choices. Even 8 total more ap (+1 per epic level) may well give players too many points to play around with and thereby limit the importance of character development choices. +4 per epic level would be outright ridiculous. I vote for the status quo and instead devs should continue to rebalance the current ap costs so they are balanced between all trees.

Johnstone
07-31-2013, 03:24 PM
Current limit of 80 ap is fine. I know that more ap would be welcome in ALL builds (thus most players would be open to the idea of more ap) but these games are about hard choices. Even 8 total more ap (+1 per epic level) may well give players too many points to play around with and thereby limit the importance of character development choices. +4 per epic level would be outright ridiculous. I vote for the status quo and instead devs should continue to rebalance the current ap costs so they are balanced between all trees.

I wasn't sure how I felt about your post until I got to the last sentence. Yes. They need to balance out the AP costs between trees and classes. Also, it feels really awkward to have the core abilities of PREs cost AP when the core abilities of EDs are autogranted. I'd much rather it be 1 or 2 AP to unlock the PRE tree and then additional core abilities autogranted either by level or by points spent in the tree. I also still think there should be some enhancements that aren't part of a tree. Certain things are part of a class as a whole, not just some members of it. Having Rogue Haste Boost in the Thief-Acrobat tree is a real kick in the teeth for my Assassin Rogue. As is having extra Sneak Attack damage in the Assassin tree for my Thief-Acrobat. Why am I forced to take enhancements that will not serve me at all in order to enhance an integral part of the Rogue class? I feel that there's far too much gating in this system still. Wasn't one of their reasons for this system to remove the invisible gates for PREs? And then they just gated basic things inside the PREs. I just don't follow that logic.

Vellrad
07-31-2013, 04:27 PM
Commoner levels are not not very interesting.

Some AP added would be fine, but as said earlier I feel that 4 are too much.

I think 1AP for each level and 3AP for levels without feat or ability score increase (not counting ED feats).
I would also like to see +1 caster level at each level when BAB increases, and attribute bonus to spellpoints as if character gained new level in his or her casting classes (so clerics, paladins and druids adds their wisdom mod to SP, wizards and artificers add their intelligence mod to SP and sorcerers, favored souls and bards adds their charisma mod to SP)(this would be 200 mana for lvl 28 wizard with 60 int, so not really OP, but a nice buff).

So the leveling table would look like (sorry for medicore formatting):

lvl/ Hit Points /mana/BAB/CL/saves/stat/AP/feat
21: 10+ con / +1 Mod/ +1/+1/+0/+0/+1/epic feat
22: 20+2con/ +2 Mod/ +1/+1/+1/+0/+3/-
23: 30+3con/ +3 Mod/ +2/+2/+1/+0/+3/-
24: 40+4con/ +4 Mod/ +2/+2/+2/+1/+1/epic feat
25: 50+5con/ +5 Mod/ +3/+3/+2/+0/+3/-
26: 60+6con/ +6 Mod/ +3/+3/+3/+0/+3/destiny feat
27: 70+7con/ +7 Mod/ +4/+4/+3/+0/+1/epic feat
28: 80+8con/ +8 Mod/ +4/+4/+4/+1/+1/destiny feat

That will mean at epic levels with some interesting gain we will get 1AP, and at epic levels which gave nothing we'll get 3AP to play with, for total 15 extra action points.

96th_Malice
07-31-2013, 04:30 PM
32 more AP is crazy too much...

But just 1 AP per epic level would be useful... 8 more AP is enough to get me a few extra nice things... 32 more would let me get EVERYTHING I want.

I vote for 1 AP per epic level.

Ya wouldn't know what to do with more than 4 !!!

carpemontis
08-01-2013, 07:13 AM
Either give a couple more AP per Epic level

OR

Free Auto-Grant racial and class abilities should cost nothing as per Epic Destiny Auto-grants. Spending points in a tree to qualify for tier I is ridiculous.

Its really simple but Turbine does not do simple sadly... They have the ability to do one thing one timwe then do somethign completely out of sync with previous incarnations.

Laters

EllisDee37
08-01-2013, 07:21 AM
32 more AP is crazy too much...

But just 1 AP per epic level would be useful... 8 more AP is enough to get me a few extra nice things... 32 more would let me get EVERYTHING I want.

I vote for 1 AP per epic level.Agreed.

Grubbby
08-01-2013, 07:50 AM
...
Free Auto-Grant racial and class abilities should cost nothing as per Epic Destiny Auto-grants. Spending points in a tree to qualify for tier I is ridiculous.


While I agree it feels odd not having the core abilities be auto grants. But at least for class trees it would be over powered. Because you are not limited to one active tree like you are in ED's.

Take Rogue, 1 point spent in Acrobat, Assasin and Mechanic would net you 15 "free" core abilities. That's not going to fly, so the Dev's would then have to come up with another core mechanic that would gate the abilities. I'd rather they kept this simple so there is less room for bugs.

EllisDee37
08-01-2013, 08:24 AM
Take Rogue, 1 point spent in Acrobat, Assasin and Mechanic would net you 15 "free" core abilities. That's not going to fly, so the Dev's would then have to come up with another core mechanic that would gate the abilities. I'd rather they kept this simple so there is less room for bugs.They require points spent in tree to unlock. Right now if you spend 1 point in Acrobat, you can't take the second core ability because you don't meet the points in tree prereq.

Granting them free once you spend enough points in tree to unlock them would be fine.

Grubbby
08-01-2013, 08:45 AM
They require points spent in tree to unlock. Right now if you spend 1 point in Acrobat, you can't take the second core ability because you don't meet the points in tree prereq.

Granting them free once you spend enough points in tree to unlock them would be fine.Thanks. You are right I misremembered, according to DeadLock's document its the racial trees that don't list an AP requirement, sorry for the confusion.

Hamlin
08-01-2013, 10:55 AM
Nevermind, redundant post.

Mister_Shevek
08-03-2013, 02:40 AM
I wasn't sure how I felt about your post until I got to the last sentence. Yes. They need to balance out the AP costs between trees and classes. Also, it feels really awkward to have the core abilities of PREs cost AP when the core abilities of EDs are autogranted. I'd much rather it be 1 or 2 AP to unlock the PRE tree and then additional core abilities autogranted either by level or by points spent in the tree. I also still think there should be some enhancements that aren't part of a tree. Certain things are part of a class as a whole, not just some members of it. Having Rogue Haste Boost in the Thief-Acrobat tree is a real kick in the teeth for my Assassin Rogue. As is having extra Sneak Attack damage in the Assassin tree for my Thief-Acrobat. Why am I forced to take enhancements that will not serve me at all in order to enhance an integral part of the Rogue class? I feel that there's far too much gating in this system still. Wasn't one of their reasons for this system to remove the invisible gates for PREs? And then they just gated basic things inside the PREs. I just don't follow that logic.

1. Core abilities should NOT be autogranted. If its worth something to you, spend a point on it. If it is not, then don't. Players SHOULD be constantly be thinking "if only I had a few more ap, arrgh!" If they arent thinking that, then the game has failed at making advancement valuable.

2. The boosts are low enough in all trees so that its not a problem. Similarly, most core class enhancements are in tier 1 or 2 and you can grab from six trees at a time. Frankly, this is a non issue.

I think the system works best when you take a clear eyed look at it and simply work within the system created. I have made several very effective toons with the new enhancement system. I would like some minor ap costs to be looked at (some things cost 2 ap and really should only cost 1, etc) and some useless enhancements (wand heightening, etc) to be reviewed but all in all this is a good system. Give it a real chance instead of decrying it because it does not function along the same lines as the system currently on live.

Vellrad
08-03-2013, 07:58 AM
1. Core abilities should NOT be autogranted. If its worth something to you, spend a point on it. If it is not, then don't. Players SHOULD be constantly be thinking "if only I had a few more ap, arrgh!" If they arent thinking that, then the game has failed at making advancement valuable.


Each 1/2 orc is required to waste point on worthless junk called orcish fury, which gives bonus covered by rage clicky, requiring 50% HP to trigger.
This should be auto grant (or even better, dissapear completely).

Mister_Shevek
08-03-2013, 10:10 AM
I disagree on the approach you are putting forward. Instead of asking a worthless enhancement to be free you should be making suggestions on how to make that enhancement more valuable.

Vargouille
08-03-2013, 11:18 AM
We are unlikely to grant more general AP in Epic Levels. Epic is for earning Epic Destiny points instead.

Krelar
08-03-2013, 11:42 AM
We are unlikely to grant more general AP in Epic Levels. Epic is for earning Epic Destiny points instead.

So can we get a few more epic destiny points then? Unlock level 6 and let us get 4 more points I don't even care if you just have us spend them in the same tree with no new abilities at least it would be something.

Mister_Shevek
08-03-2013, 01:15 PM
We do get something. We get some damn good epic feats. People on these forums complain too much.

Book_O_Dragons
08-03-2013, 01:27 PM
We are unlikely to grant more general AP in Epic Levels. Epic is for earning Epic Destiny points instead.

I was looking at Vellrad's proposal and would you consider caster level increases for epic levels? I worry that level cap increases will raise enemy SR beyond easily beatable values on EH. I'm predicting this will happen in quests that are quest level 31-32 on normal. I think 1 CL/2 epic levels will hold that unhappy event off until lvl 40+ quests provided spell pen items are improved as well. I'm thinking 1 spell pen/3 epic levels as an absolute minimum without knowing the internal progression for enemy SR. I also believe that this is probably much too low and will require the ability to easily get spell pen close to character level without any investment in feats. If you invest to the maximum in feats, heroic class enhancements (do not include any race specific effects) and gear while running a destiny to increase your caster level even more I think that on EE a 20% chance (roll 1-4) to fail SR checks is the maximum to allow against trash mobs at end game. If you are worried about too powerful spell damage with caster level increases remember that most spells are already damage capped and will be getting higher damage will be from spell power increases and maybe a few named items increasing max caster level for at most two types of spells at a time possibly linking the increases to spells by a type of spell power. I think it might be acceptable to just increase spell pen but only the shortest buff durations would really be increased noticeably as an extended buff still only lasts until death.

Uska
08-03-2013, 01:38 PM
4 per level is to much 1 might even to much

Wizza
08-03-2013, 01:47 PM
I was looking at Vellrad's proposal and would you consider caster level increases for epic levels?

There would be no point. Most spells' CL isn't working corrently and the other ones are capped with MCL not applying correctly.

Delacroix21
08-03-2013, 01:58 PM
We are unlikely to grant more general AP in Epic Levels. Epic is for earning Epic Destiny points instead.

But EDs can allready be capped at 25, why raise the cap to 28? Allot of the new epic feats arent really "Epic" at all, namely the skill feats and spellpower feats. I dont see how anyone would ever pick +5 to hide and so on.


I still think the skill feats should be changed to +5 to all skills (this will be the only way people may take this), and the spellpower feat to +20 usp (which really doesn't seem like much!).


Also PLEASE do something about Epic saves before this goes Live! Any time you add an ability with a save its trash when considering EE content (and requires allot of work to function in EH).

Dawnsfire
08-03-2013, 05:02 PM
We are unlikely to grant more general AP in Epic Levels. Epic is for earning Epic Destiny points instead.

Sadly this is correct. Each epic level seems designed to be blah. We get an occasional feat, +1 to all skills and an occasional attrib point. They seem to want us to concentrate on EDs while using the boring character level system to drive us on to higher level quests. They seem to be trying to 'spice' the feats up a bit but only for 26-28.

I think it is designed this way on purpose though. Levels 21-28 will be free to all but the ED system is P2P (even most of the newer feats are tied to it). I am surprised they did not expand the EDs a bit. I guess requiring them for the new feats is enough in their eyes . . .

2pleasegimmie
08-04-2013, 01:12 AM
1. Core abilities should NOT be autogranted. If its worth something to you, spend a point on it. If it is not, then don't. Players SHOULD be constantly be thinking "if only I had a few more ap, arrgh!" If they arent thinking that, then the game has failed at making advancement valuable.

2. The boosts are low enough in all trees so that its not a problem. Similarly, most core class enhancements are in tier 1 or 2 and you can grab from six trees at a time. Frankly, this is a non issue.

I think the system works best when you take a clear eyed look at it and simply work within the system created. I have made several very effective toons with the new enhancement system. I would like some minor ap costs to be looked at (some things cost 2 ap and really should only cost 1, etc) and some useless enhancements (wand heightening, etc) to be reviewed but all in all this is a good system. Give it a real chance instead of decrying it because it does not function along the same lines as the system currently on live.

You bet - because WOW-clone trees and frustration are winners in the minds of most players for sure.

2pleasegimmie
08-04-2013, 01:19 AM
We are unlikely to grant more general AP in Epic Levels. Epic is for earning Epic Destiny points instead.

Purchased in the DDO store. It makes no other sense not to have more levels tie into core game mechanics. Needless extortion.

Silverleafeon
08-04-2013, 11:16 AM
We are unlikely to grant more general AP in Epic Levels. Epic is for earning Epic Destiny points instead.

Thank you for the extra feats that are popping up.

Very happy to shell out for the 2014 expansion which could be Epic Destiny levels jumping from 5 to 10?

Overall happy with the game, hoping it all comes together, thanks.

Book_O_Dragons
08-05-2013, 03:56 AM
There would be no point. Most spells' CL isn't working corrently and the other ones are capped with MCL not applying correctly.

I made that point in my post already.

I was looking at a long term problem in how epic levels have been added to the game. The problem of increasing enemy SR values is already making difficulty when fighting EE drow.

mitashkiq
08-05-2013, 06:18 AM
Epic desteny level 0 core and tier 1 must require level 21; (1;2) must require level 22....
Currently you can be level 20 and use maxed tree. Epic levels sucks and epic desteny is OP. :(
(BTW I have ED)

SirValentine
08-08-2013, 11:31 AM
We are unlikely to grant more general AP in Epic Levels. Epic is for earning Epic Destiny points instead.

That SOUNDS nice, but way back when, you all made two independent systems, Epic Levels 21-25 (now 21-28), and Epic Destinies. It's quite possible to be gaining one but not the other. The experience for each is tracked separately.

Someone who hasn't purchased Epic Destinies can still gain 8 levels after 20, for which they get no class abilities at all, nor enhancements, etc.. I've seen other forum users jokingly refer to them as "Commoner levels", and that's not far off. Actual levels need to do more, independent of Epic Destinies.

I'm not saying it has to be Heroic Action Points, but it should be SOMETHING more than a few HP and +1 to skills. At the very least, every Epic level should count as a class level for all class-level based abilities (Assassinate, Stunning Fist, Turn Undead, caster level, whatever).

Dandonk
08-08-2013, 11:35 AM
I'm not saying it has to be Heroic Action Points, but it should be SOMETHING more than a few HP and +1 to skills. At the very least, every Epic level should count as a class level for all class-level based abilities (Assassinate, Stunning Fist, Turn Undead, caster level, whatever).

This would be so extremely nice.