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View Full Version : Stalwart Defender / Sacred Defender stances don't make sense



eecsman
07-26-2013, 09:21 PM
It doesn't make sense to have enhancements on tiers 1-4 (requiring 1-4 class levels) that improve a stance that requires 6 class levels. I think these stances should be made the core tier 0 enhancement.

And yes, I am unhappy because my planned sword & board flavor build got nullified.

2pleasegimmie
07-27-2013, 11:33 AM
And yes, I am unhappy because my planned sword & board flavor build got nullified.

I logged into Lama to see that lots of stuff got "nullified". They also pushed a lot of things up into the trees to make them impossible for multiclassers to get now, thus further nerfing our characters.

Clearly they aren't going to listen to us, and are only interested in setting us up to buy more cr*p from the store to try and prop up our now gimped characters.

The chest reroll mechanic explains why I noticed the drop rate of loot in the new content (on live already) was so bad, too.

Especially with WB now at the helm, I'm sure we have nowhere to go but on down, and we're just swirling in the bowl right now. I'm done.

I hope they liked the taste of that bait-and-switch expansion money, because it's the last they will ever get from me. The wife's LOTRO vip account was also cancelled today. I really wish I could give people my stuff, but the new hard-sell game functions have resulted in anything worth a **** being BTC or BTA :(

eecsman
07-28-2013, 07:58 PM
Yes, there are a lot of changes coming, and I don't agree with all of them either. But I was trying to make a logical argument for something to be changed, that I thought might actually have a chance at being changed.

I know why they put the stances at core 3, requiring 6 class levels, because that's how it was in the old enhancements. But these are the new enhancements, which only loosely match up to the old ones. I still don't think it makes sense to have enhancements on tiers 1-4 (requiring 1-4 class levels) that modify something you need 6 class levels to get.

And let's not forget I'm talking about a stance that requires a SHIELD to be equipped. That right there probably makes it irrelevant to a large majority of players. I'd guess the number of non-divine melee toons that use a shield most of the time is well under 1%.

Even with the original Sacred Defender tree, before the stance required 6 class levels, before they moved Reinforced Defense from tiers 2/3 to 4/5, it's not like people were going nuts over it. They were going nuts over Defensive Strikes, because it offered large gains for no trade-off.

I've been wanting to make a sword & board toon since I started with f2p, just because I think it looks cool. With the original Sacred Defender enhancements, I saw a chance to make a sturdy S&B toon that could at least contribute dps-wise.

Change the stances to Core 1. Let me have my fun.

Thrudh
07-28-2013, 08:57 PM
I logged into Lama to see that lots of stuff got "nullified". They also pushed a lot of things up into the trees to make them impossible for multiclassers to get now, thus further nerfing our characters.

Clearly they aren't going to listen to us, and are only interested in setting us up to buy more cr*p from the store to try and prop up our now gimped characters.

My characters were able to get nearly all the same abilities they had before plus a few new ones...

What characters do you have that are now gimped?

Thrudh
07-28-2013, 08:59 PM
I've been wanting to make a sword & board toon since I started with f2p, just because I think it looks cool. With the original Sacred Defender enhancements, I saw a chance to make a sturdy S&B toon that could at least contribute dps-wise.

Change the stances to Core 1. Let me have my fun.

You can't fit 6 levels of fighter or paladin into a Sword and Board character?

Teh_Troll
07-28-2013, 10:47 PM
Just remove the stupid "must have shield" just from the stances. These are fine on live, this change is fixing something that ain't broken.

eecsman
07-29-2013, 12:16 AM
You can't fit 6 levels of fighter or paladin into a Sword and Board character?

It's not so much that I can't, it's that I wanted to turn a Juggernaut base into a sword & board character. Self-healing and traps for when I solo. Artificer enhancements to improve bastard sword damage. Deadly Weapons & Silver Weapons to make him more palatable to groups. Enough feats (with epic) to fit in THF line, SM/ISM, C/GC/OC, Toughness & Epic Toughness. A Juggernaut base just seemed to have a lot of synergy with what I wanted to do.

I'm still thinking about whether to shelve the toon or makes changes. Maybe keep the build, just suck up the lower AC and PRR. Maybe a dwarven cleric War Priest, depending on how that turns out, but I'd have to give up some feats. Maybe a Bladeforged fighter / paladin / (rogue or monk), using the recon SLA, after we can TR into iconics.

Mostly I'm just pouting because I TRed a toon and started gathering gear based on alpha enhancements. *doh*

PaddyMaxson
07-29-2013, 08:05 AM
I hope they liked the taste of that bait-and-switch expansion money, because it's the last they will ever get from me. The wife's LOTRO vip account was also cancelled today. I really wish I could give people my stuff, but the new hard-sell game functions have resulted in anything worth a **** being BTC or BTA :(


At the risk of getting myself forum banned....why give them that money at all? Charge that **** back.

I personally like where enhancements are going though.

Steelstar
07-29-2013, 08:19 AM
Just remove the stupid "must have shield" just from the stances.

Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.

B0ltdrag0n
07-29-2013, 08:22 AM
Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.

I'm fairly certain he meant...remove the shield requirement entirely. Not just from lower tier enhancements.

Teh_Troll
07-29-2013, 08:27 AM
Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.

But that's the only stuff of the stance worth having. :)

What's the harm in +6 STR/CON at all times when we can currently get +5 STR/CON from a common rage-effect? Seriously, it's pointless to have it enabled to NOT get the benefits of rage-effect. The +6 STR/CON makes up for that.

And believe me, when there's time to take the shield out it will come out. The PRR benefits are strong enough to rationalize it's use for that 1% of the time when a tank actually needs to have it's shield out.

Oh . . . and your to-hits are still insane. EE LOB last night and at 150 AC I didn't see any misses. One of the huge advantages to having the shield out is the massive AC bonuses but that means nothing in difficult content, it should. Do something about that :)

NytCrawlr
07-29-2013, 09:53 AM
Oh . . . and your to-hits are still insane. EE LOB last night and at 150 AC I didn't see any misses. One of the huge advantages to having the shield out is the massive AC bonuses but that means nothing in difficult content, it should. Do something about that :)

I don't agree with the prior part, just call me old fashion and ascetic, but I do agree with this.

Please, a thousand times this. Otherwise people will just continue to make pajamas that can tank as well.

I love tanks, and right now they are barely needed. Give me a reason to not TR mine into something else.

Teh_Troll
07-29-2013, 10:09 AM
I love tanks, and right now they are barely needed. Give me a reason to not TR mine into something else.

That's a different situation all together. Good tanks are nice/needed in 3 raids which at this point really don't drop anything.

In every other situation where a tank could be useful a better strategy can be used to address the same challenge.

Thing is I hope they don't break the game more just to make tanks feel special, I'd rather they didn't break tanks by requiring the shield so they could still participate in that other 99% of the game without piking.

Dandonk
07-29-2013, 10:52 AM
Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.

Why do you guys feel the need to pigeon hole everyone? Why is it bad if TWF or THF get some tank bonuses?

Teh_Troll
07-29-2013, 11:00 AM
Why do you guys feel the need to pigeon hole everyone? Why is it bad if TWF or THF get some tank bonuses?

Emphasis is on the word SOME bonuses. As it is now when the going gets rough the shield comes out, this will continue to be the case post ENH pass.

Turbine . . . if your fear is unintended Synergies stop worrying about it, since you removed defensive strikes you won't see and weird Fighter/monk tank thingies, armor and shield are back to being the best option when it comes to actual tanking.

Just let me keep my +6 STR/CON when TWFing trash so I'm not such a drain on the group and have to pike behind a shield.

Thrudh
07-29-2013, 12:15 PM
Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.

Unfortunately those higher tier improvements are the main reasons to go Stalwart Defender...

I'm not upset that my TWF Stalwart Defender doesn't really work anymore... I think I can still make him an okay tank using Dodge and maybe ninja spy incorporeal. And there's plenty of new stuff to play with, so if I have to re-make him as somewhat defensive Kensai/Ninja Spy, that's okay.

But Stalwart Defender still requires a shield to be worth it.

If that's a design decision, I'm okay with it. But don't think you've fixed it where THF and TWF people will actually consider SD as main PrE.

Thrudh
07-29-2013, 12:19 PM
Just let me keep my +6 STR/CON when TWFing trash so I'm not such a drain on the group and have to pike behind a shield.

Agreed... and the 20% hp... Those are main reasons to go SD, and they only work with a shield.

Therefore: Stalwart Defender only works if you're Sword and Board.

darkrhavyn
07-29-2013, 12:56 PM
Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.

that sounds great until you go and find out that the stance no longer grants what it did previously and that to get the bonus to strength or con you have to have a shield.

what part of we hate this change, it neuters dozens of build types, and its brings no value to the game do you guys not get?

Defense doesn't just mean a shield. To me, logically a monk is as tough as nails, almost impossible to hit and they are NEVER pictured with a shield. Their training Makes them as tough as if they had a shield....requiring a shield for a monk or any other highly trained fighter, paladin, etc is build limiting and once again sticking us into the roles that you have decided we should play and how we should play them.

I will say it again...stop changing things that don't need changing....the defensive stances work just fine as is on live...they are not by any means overpowered or game breaking...LEAVE THEM ALONE AND LET THEM WORK LIKE ON LIVE WITHOUT THE ARTIFICIAL REQUIREMENT OF A SHIELD!

skullzz
07-29-2013, 01:23 PM
I agree that the shield requirement is BS. There is no point in staying in stance when you are fighting and not tanking. If anything move all the PRR, AC boost, and Health to tier 2. Put the STR, CON, and incite on Tier 1 (no shield required). As others have pointed out Primal Scream does pretty much the same thing as this and if you are needed for DPS you will not be using a shield so no stance. And guess what this PRE is useless.

An addition to this discussion:

The capstone in SD that requires 20 fighter to get should give you the bonus HP and fill your HP bar.

Right now with how it works you use the boost to get the 100% more HP and your at your previous HP plus a blank area. This is a waste because for it to last 20 or 30 secs(possible 1 min) (forget which) you are now at 1/2 health. I can see this being used in the Oh S**t! Moments in a fight (someone brings Reaver's Boom to the group) and you need to survive that so the party does not wipe. How it sits you are at your old hp until you get a heal which is just a waste of spell points for the person healing you, especially if all of those extra hp are not used before the timer runs out.


I propose that you change this capstone to have a heal(say 300HP) + temporary HP = max HP. This would possibly invite me to get rid of my monk levels (evasion for FoT) to pick this up.

Just my 2 cents.

Teh_Troll
07-29-2013, 01:42 PM
. . . If anything move all the PRR, AC boost, and Health to tier 2. Put the STR, CON, and incite on Tier 1 (no shield required). . . .

YES!!! THIS!!! Isn't this how it works on live?

If you insist on the inane "must have shield" silliness reverse what works and what doesn't. That would be acceptable.

Teh_Troll
07-29-2013, 01:54 PM
Agreed... and the 20% hp... Those are main reasons to go SD, and they only work with a shield.

Therefore: Stalwart Defender only works if you're Sword and Board.

When Thrudh and Teh_Troll agree on something it has to be right.

Devs, make it so.

Arianka
07-29-2013, 02:35 PM
I'm fairly certain he meant...remove the shield requirement entirely. Not just from lower tier enhancements.this.requiring a shield is dumb and ruins lots of bilds.

Alistina
07-29-2013, 06:18 PM
So its been said plenty before, and I'll say it again. The shield MUST HAVE requirement is simply stupid and senseless.

1) It is not required and not feasible as per the content created by Turbine to stay is board & sword at all times. You'd do it when tanking, but lets face it, how many quests really need you to do so? Even if you are tank toon, you'd want to switch to THF/TWF for faster kills in day to day questing.
Also, the bonuses that you have 'allowed' without the shield right now are useless, not at all worth spending points in that tree to take them.

2) The only class I always keep shield on is my FVS healer. There is no way that you would splash 5 levels of fighter/paladin on a healer. Other than that, a melee toon would never really gain from having a shield on constantly.

3) As someone pointed out earlier, you do give constitution and strength to barbarians with rage. What's the big deal to let a toon get the similar bonuses from defender stance if they are willing to splash 5/6 levels of paladin/fighter and the enormous pile of APs to get extra defence & HP?. Its just fine on live. As it is, there are no toughness enhancements anymore, leave at least some option for the melee classes to gain some extra HP, they need it.

My pure paladin suffers from this change. My paladin splash multiclass monk and another rogue/pali is killed because of it. I'm sure a lot other people have their builds killed due to this stupid change. I'd use that +20 stone to opt of paladin levels completely on my multiclass toons other than the ones who need paladin past life and have to suffer through a life of enduring a meaningless build.

4) If you are still not convinced, introduce extra penalties...maybe to-hit along with movement speed. Give the players a choice if they want defence or DPS by this, not by forcing a choice between playstyle that is not feasible for daily questing vs not playing a lot of fun builds anymore.

To summarise, remove the shield requirement. Introduce additional penalties from defence stance, if you must.

Teh_Troll
07-29-2013, 06:21 PM
48 APs to get a decent Stalwart defender.

This PRE is a terrible steaming pile of junk.

Propane
07-29-2013, 10:35 PM
Agreed - having to have the shield to get the 2nd tier bonus (STR/CON/HP) is BS-
It takes the marginal DPS of a non-tanking tank and makes you a piker...

If the DEVS want to nerf the TWF splash builds - do a few things like..
- remove all movement reductions WITH a shield, BUT maintain the reduction WITHOUT the shield.
- Make the bonus +2STR/+2CON/+7%HP, +4STR/+4CON/+14%HP, +6STR/+6CON/20%HP

A few simple changes like this would save a lot of coding / bugs / etc. -

Don't nerf the 18FT/18Pally tanks - they invest a lot of feats to be good tanks - let they have a little fun - usefulness without tanking

eecsman
07-30-2013, 12:09 AM
Done, and already on current Lamannia. However, some of the higher-tier improvements for Stalwart and Sacred Defender stances still require a shield.

Any comment on my point about enhancements requiring 1-4 class levels modifying a stance that requires 6 class levels?

Since no one else seems to want to use a shield all the time, and I do, just ignore them and listen to me: make the stances a core 1 enhancement.