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maddong
07-18-2013, 10:35 AM
After the update I was thinking of making a dwarven either ranger 12 (tempest 12 core for +20% offhand)/barbarian 8 (ravager 5th tier for crit rage II) or barbarian 12 (ravager 5th tier)/ranger 6 (tempest 3 core for +10% offhand) con based heavy pick dual wielder (equal bonuses on mainhand and offhand).

But it looks like I have to start with a 16 strength +4 tome +3 level ups to also get Overwhelming Critical. At that point I'm guessing I would end up with about equal str and con so it would be a large AP investment for a slight bonus to offhand damage (and no chance at viable tactics).

Any thoughts?

Teh_Troll
07-18-2013, 10:40 AM
CON to damage isn't really that hot.

To-hit is still STR (not that that really matters) as are tacitcal DCs.

It won't work with the best TWFing weapons in the game.

And as you mentioned, OC still requires 23 base STR which means you need to put a few level-ups there anyway.

I could see this being useful on a Dorf stalwart or something, but not really that viable on a DPS build.

SerPounce
07-18-2013, 11:00 AM
CON to damage isn't really that hot.

To-hit is still STR (not that that really matters) as are tacitcal DCs.

It won't work with the best TWFing weapons in the game.

And as you mentioned, OC still requires 23 base STR which means you need to put a few level-ups there anyway.

I could see this being useful on a Dorf stalwart or something, but not really that viable on a DPS build.
I donno, Mornh is a pretty solid weapon, and full con to off hand will help make up for a few points in STR for OC.

Dumping tactics will hurt, but they do get that groovy looking con-based earthgrab ability.

I could see it being quite nice for anyone who doesn't want to put in the considerable resources and effort it takes to get EE worthy tactics.

I'd actually consider ranger 20, the tempest capstone is one of the few that might be worth giving up splashing for, and the big CON will help make up for ranger squishiness (and enhancement based improved evasion lets you dump dex if you want).

Teh_Troll
07-18-2013, 11:14 AM
I donno, Mornh is a pretty solid weapon, and full con to off hand will help make up for a few points in STR for OC.

You need to be 23 base-STR for Overwhelming critical. You will still need to invest more in STR than in CON in order to do that.

What part about that isn't clear?

Mornh is good, especially if your a Kensia in Dreadnaught. But for a toon with no stunning blow ability and has manyshot Fury looks like a better option which makes the Balizarde a sexier option.



I'd actually consider ranger 20, the tempest capstone is one of the few that might be worth giving up splashing for, and the big CON will help make up for ranger squishiness (and enhancement based improved evasion on a dex dumped toon is pretty sweet).

That actually looks like a really good idea, the Tempest Capstone is excellent and is probably more DPS than the splashes.

Though Ranger "suuishness" is a thing of the past compared to fighters, see the Toughness Enhancements changes.

SerPounce
07-18-2013, 12:07 PM
You need to be 23 base-STR for Overwhelming critical. You will still need to invest more in STR than in CON in order to do that.

What part about that isn't clear?
.

The part where you need the starting build points elsewhere.

You need con, and str for OC, and.... nothing.. 18 +4 +1 STR, 18 +everything else CON.

Teh_Troll
07-18-2013, 12:21 PM
The part where you need the starting build points elsewhere.

You need con, and str for OC, and.... nothing.. 18 +4 +1 STR, 18 +everything else CON.

Hmmm . . . have a fighter with a +5 STR tome . . . hmmm . . . .

maddong
07-18-2013, 01:50 PM
Yeah I guess +5 tomes and starting at 18 can make it easier. I tend to like my saves from dex and wis though (and I don't have a +5 yet).

So 20 ranger is 2.3 x 1.6 deathnips = 3.68 or the same with mornh in LD
12 ran/8 barb is 2 x 1.9 deathnips = 3.8 (what I was favoring)
12 barb/8 rang is 1.9 x 1.9 deathnips = 3.61

I was thinking barbarian since rage adds to con as well as strength and the con build will lengthen the rages.

unbongwah
07-18-2013, 03:39 PM
I could sorta see going CON-based on a dwarf tank, since rage effects & defensive stances still don't play nice in the alpha, AFAIK; and you could choose to skip the STR upgrades from the stance tree, thereby freeing APs for other things.

But I don't see the point in doing so on a DPS build, as long as there are more STR boosts than CON boosts in DDO. SerPounce mentioned getting full CON (vs half STR) applied to offhand atks; presuming that's true & WAI, you'd still be doing more dmg with your main hand by going STR-based (and adding aforementioned STR boosts). And unless they changed Cleave atks to proc offhand strikes when I wasn't looking, main-hand atks are still more important, even if you went pure Tempest.

Mostly, though, I'm not convinced the dwarven racial weapon tree is worth the APs it costs to max out; same thing w/elven weapon tree.

SerPounce
07-18-2013, 04:35 PM
I could sorta see going CON-based on a dwarf tank, since rage effects & defensive stances still don't play nice in the alpha, AFAIK; and you could choose to skip the STR upgrades from the stance tree, thereby freeing APs for other things.

But I don't see the point in doing so on a DPS build, as long as there are more STR boosts than CON boosts in DDO. SerPounce mentioned getting full CON (vs half STR) applied to offhand atks; presuming that's true & WAI, you'd still be doing more dmg with your main hand by going STR-based (and adding aforementioned STR boosts). And unless they changed Cleave atks to proc offhand strikes when I wasn't looking, main-hand atks are still more important, even if you went pure Tempest.

Mostly, though, I'm not convinced the dwarven racial weapon tree is worth the APs it costs to max out; same thing w/elven weapon tree.h
STR can get way better than DEX, but the difference with CON is much less severe. Rage abilities, rage spell, primal scream all add to CON also.

Even more than the extra HP (which is great) what I like about a CON based build is how easy it would be to slot. You just need one stat making it so easy to fit in all the amp, saves, seeker, etc, etc. How many builds really manage to get 8 +3 +1 stat gear bonuses to both STR and CON? Easy to effectively do here. And with the tempest build you don't even really need DEX since you have imp. evasion.

On live it's definitely true that you get full off-stat damage in your off hand. I've tested this myself with envenomed blades. Unfortunately it's also true that you only get 1x off-stat damage with a two hander so any CON based greataxe or DEX based falchion builds are dead on arrival. Is it a bug? who knows. Are they going to change/fix it? I doubt it, but who knows.

The AP you'd need to sink into the racial tree is indeed a concern. Hard to tell how much without playing around with it.

As far as weapons go, I still think Mornh beats any actual picks. Unless there's some rockstar pick I'm not thinking off.

This is something I've been thinking about since the alpha, but sadly I just don't have a toon that it "feels right" on.

unbongwah
07-18-2013, 06:37 PM
STR can get way better than DEX, but the difference with CON is much less severe. Rage abilities, rage spell, primal scream all add to CON also.
Brain fart: I forgot Madstone Boots (http://ddowiki.com/page/Madstone_Boots) provides more CON than STR; for some reason I thought it was the other way around. :o So, okay, maybe CON-based dwarf barb or rgr is slightly less crazy than I thought...but it still seems pretty crazy! :p

As far as weapons go, I still think Mornh beats any actual picks. Unless there's some rockstar pick I'm not thinking off.
I was thinking: Deathnips while leveling in the mid-teens, switch to Mornh once you acquire (or hit min. lvl if TRing).

FestusHood
07-18-2013, 06:47 PM
The dev's may want to consider tweaking the throwing your weight around enhancement so it permits con to be used for to hit value as well. I know people say to hit doesn't matter any more, but it does. Just not the same way. It's quite difficult to get your to hit high enough to not graze on a 4, or even 5 against some mobs.

Veles
07-18-2013, 06:58 PM
Nevermind

Teh_Troll
07-19-2013, 09:03 AM
. SerPounce mentioned getting full CON (vs half STR) applied to offhand atks; presuming that's true & WAI,

Same with DEX, it's true. WAI? I highly doubt it.