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KosmicRider
07-18-2013, 04:50 AM
I've always loved DnD Paladins. Played a ton of them in NWN and PnP. New to DDO because I wanted a new game to play and they seem fun to me.

So I am in the beginning of a human paladin. I read a bit and nothing is ever consistent. I want to be an intimitank sword and board.
I so far have 15 str
8 dex
14 con
10 int
8 wis
15 charisma.
I think...that's pretty much the average of my stats for a 28 build, might not be exact but close.

I took toughness and exotic weapon bastard sword

I plan on taking
Two Handed Fighting
Shield Mastery
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical: Slashing

Will try and go for defender of syberis 14 -16 but before that hunter of the dead.

all my attribute points will go into str.

I am thinking of simply making a pure paladin and just tank it up that way.
I know id beable to get feats easier if I splashed 2 levels fighter, but I am not too sure.

Skills: Balance, Use Magic Device, and Intimidate.

Any tips?
I love the idea of an intimitank and I feel that sword+board with bastard sword glancing blows, doublestrike, paladin crits, and cleave will help me maintain a decent dps.

If someone with the knowledge can help me perfect this, I would appreciate it.

I have also read Jung's guide as well.

cru121
07-18-2013, 05:06 AM
I feel that sword+board with bastard sword glancing blows, doublestrike, paladin crits, and cleave will help me maintain a decent dps.
Yeah, it probably won't. You should use a two-handed weapon in most situations and just swap to shields when absolutely needed. Personally I like to take Power Attack / Cleave / Great Cleave asap. Though as a paladin you already have a few clicky attacks (smite, divine sacrifice), I think cleaves are more fun and stronger.

EllisDee37
07-18-2013, 07:30 AM
Agreed. Great Cleave is the bee's knees.

KosmicRider
07-18-2013, 07:44 AM
Agreed. Great Cleave is the bee's knees.

but what about the rest of it, I am planning on great cleave route as well. I read a lot of guides saying intimitanks are viable especially with bastard sword +two handed weapon for glancing blows helps in increasing dps and keeping agro. My main focus is tank and holding aggro/surviving.

Fedora1
07-18-2013, 07:50 AM
Your build points look good, just make sure you get a WIS+3 item in time for your L1 spells, or you will need to rely on potions (owl).

I agree with others you should get PA/Cleave/GC early. THF is not as critical, you can save it for later.

The fighter splash is nice for feats, and if you are going for shields it gives you free tower shield prof.. Also extra strength enhancement and haste boost.

Fedora1
07-18-2013, 07:52 AM
I read a lot of guides saying intimitanks are viable especially with bastard sword +two handed weapon for glancing blows helps in increasing dps and keeping agro. My main focus is tank and holding aggro/surviving.

It might be hard keeping aggro fighting with a shield, unless there are no pure fighters or barbs in your party. You will need to rely on Intim because your dps won't be as good as those.

Soulfurnace
07-18-2013, 09:13 AM
Holding agro is hard - trust me.
Intimidate isn't really enough these days, you need good dps.
And frankly, even then you'll struggle if someone decides they want agro. [See - Furyshot]

Relenthe
07-18-2013, 09:18 AM
You have to realise that tanking is only really needed on a few select quests. The rest of the time you are fighting trash and things die so fast that you may as well help them die faster by using a two handed weapon. Then when tanking is needed switch to swoard and board.

KosmicRider
07-18-2013, 09:19 AM
Holding agro is hard - trust me.
Intimidate isn't really enough these days, you need good dps.
And frankly, even then you'll struggle if someone decides they want agro. [See - Furyshot]

All of this is good to know. I guess the main thing will be to tank as much as possible and pull agro as an offtank from those who are squishy. I don't know, maybe Ill just splash 2 levels of fighter and grab the thf feats so I can do both

unbongwah
07-18-2013, 09:58 AM
I posted a basic S&B pally tank build here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/117232-Request-a-Build-Get-a-Build?p=5012724&viewfull=1#post5012724). The good news is you're on the right track. :) If you decide to go pure pally, you have to find two feats you can drop; I'd probably skip the THF chain and pick up a metamagic somewhere.

EllisDee37
07-18-2013, 04:41 PM
The only times I'm aware of where tanking is essentially required:

Tower of Despair
Fall of Truth
Lord of Blades

Is there any instance in any other quest/raid where having a tank is preferable to having just another dps character?

unbongwah
07-18-2013, 06:42 PM
You don't "need" a dedicated tank in most content any more than you "need" a dedicated healer or a full-time archer or a bunch of other roles people like to play. So what? Unless you're obsessed with minmaxing or speed runs or whatever, why not just let people play what they want (within reason)? The important thing is learning to pull your own weight and having fun.

EllisDee37
07-18-2013, 06:59 PM
The important thing is learning to pull your own weightThat was the gist of my question. Does a well-built well-played tank pull its own weight?

Lonnbeimnech
07-18-2013, 08:22 PM
That was the gist of my question. Does a well-built well-played tank pull its own weight?

99% of the time, no.

Very few places in the game where one is needed, and even in those places you don't need a 'tank', you just need someone that can hold agro and not die.

EllisDee37
07-19-2013, 02:21 AM
99% of the time, no.

Very few places in the game where one is needed, and even in those places you don't need a 'tank', you just need someone that can hold agro and not die.Well, as a guy who usually brings my cleric on guild raids, I greatly prefer having a real tank in ToD, FoT and LoB.

Charononus
07-19-2013, 03:59 AM
Holding agro is hard - trust me.
Intimidate isn't really enough these days, you need good dps.
And frankly, even then you'll struggle if someone decides they want agro. [See - Furyshot]

Intolerant blow needs to be kept up at all times at that point. Furyshot isn't I want aggro it's I want that pos dead now RIGHT NAOW! =P

KosmicRider
07-19-2013, 04:17 AM
So this is all good information

I might drop two handed fighting for Quicken Spell. I just love tanky characters that just cannot die. So with that being said, as a paladin as my main focus and having a holy weapon, what do you think I should do? to be viable as a tank. I know one guide simply said two handed fighting, greater two handed fighting, and etc and tower shield prof, quicken spell, and etc, not really having cleave. For a two handed weapon. Then just equip a shield when necessary. I love the idea of sword and board (bastard sword focus) as opposed to khopesh.

What about Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, and Shield bash? I hear shield bash isn't that good. Main focus is survival and possibly protecting my squishy team mates and dps from getting focused. To take blows.

Another guide says take the dragonmark that gives globe of invulnerability. I don't know about that. I also know that tanks are heavily gear dependent. So you all definitely have a better end game experience than I do...what should I be looking at. If tank isn't going to be viable but in certain raids, what should I do? I know ill be feat starved as a pure paladin. What is the best route without gimping myself in that case? I do appreciate everyone's time and help.

FranOhmsford
07-19-2013, 04:36 AM
Trying to understand why no-one has mentioned for me the all important feat for a Sword + Board Tank - Improved Shield Bash - http://ddowiki.com/page/Improved_Shield_Bash

Shield Mastery/Imp Shield Mastery help too of course.

DoS Paladin Pure - Well enough people say it works BUT I do prefer the 2 Fighter Levels myself for the extra feats:

Lvl 1 Human - Toughness, Power Attack {Save the B-Sword till later}
Lvl 3 - Cleave
Lvl 6 - Great Cleave
Lvl 7 Fighter - Shield Mastery {also gives FREE Tower Shield Prof.}
Lvl 9 - Imp Crit Slashing
Lvl 12 - Imp Shield Bash
Lvl 14 Fighter - Imp Shield Mastery
Lvl 15 - Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword
Lvl 18 - Two Handed Fighting

There's nothing you'll be Expected to Turtle Up and Tank before Lvl 18 so you can simply stick with Greatswords or Long Sword and Shield till that point.

P.S. There's a lot of very nice Heavy Shields at Lvl 8-14 but very few good Tower Shields - For a Pure Paladin the best choice would seem to be...
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Madstone_Shield

You'll have your Holy Sword Spell of course BUT there's also plenty of good named {and random} Long Swords available...My personal favourite being:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Retribution


EDIT: Dragonmark of Sentinel is for one specific B-Sword Build - Built around one specific EPIC Weapon - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Chimera's_Fang

Not sure how you'd fit in the THREE Feats required on a Pure Paladin {or even a two fighter splash tbh} BUT the Devs have stated that they're considering changing Dragonmarks to just the ONE Feat + Enhancements.

FranOhmsford
07-19-2013, 04:47 AM
I also know that tanks are heavily gear dependent. So you all definitely have a better end game experience than I do...what should I be looking at. If tank isn't going to be viable but in certain raids, what should I do? I know ill be feat starved as a pure paladin. What is the best route without gimping myself in that case? I do appreciate everyone's time and help.

Best piece of advice I can give:

DON'T rush to End-Game!

Gearing an End-Game Tank is a Long-Haul Grind!
AND You'll be expected to have all that gear before trying to play Main Tank in End-Game Raids!

Most End-Game Players have ground out multiple lives now too {for Past Life Bonuses and of course more chances to pick up that must have gear}.

If you want to play a Sword & Board Tanky Paladin go for it BUT do it for the roleplay NOT the Fame!

This is why I specified a Lvl 8 Long Sword - Retribution and a Lvl 14 Tower Shield - Madstone Shield in my previous post rather than End-Game Gear.
You've gotta get there first!

KosmicRider
07-19-2013, 04:50 AM
Best piece of advice I can give:

DON'T rush to End-Game!

Gearing an End-Game Tank is a Long-Haul Grind!
AND You'll be expected to have all that gear before trying to play Main Tank in End-Game Raids!

Most End-Game Players have ground out multiple lives now too {for Past Life Bonuses and of course more chances to pick up that must have gear}.

If you want to play a Sword & Board Tanky Paladin go for it BUT do it for the roleplay NOT the Fame!

This is why I specified a Lvl 8 Long Sword - Retribution and a Lvl 14 Tower Shield - Madstone Shield in my previous post rather than End-Game Gear.
You've gotta get there first!

I love you, platonically of course. Your post has definitely hit a mark inside of me that lead to the inspiration and motivation I needed. I plan on doing several past lives for him. Next life will be a fighter. I am also in a RP guild in sarlona so that's a big plus.

lyrecono
07-19-2013, 05:46 AM
if you do multiple lives, do trie your hand at some epics to gain tokens for tr-ing and gaining some Epic Destiny points.
For trash mobs i recommend the trusty old carnifex(good for lv 4-10) a very good greataxe, to speed things up. (when a crazzy barb has sprinted ahead and taken agro :P)

Vod and Hound have nice gear that works well in most lives but i bet you'll hit 20 before you get that, at wich point the purple dragon knight gear might work just as well and might be easier to aquire too.
By then 20% heal amp bracer are found on the AH/vendor, i just bought 2 for 30k each, they stack with the 30% heal amp pdk gloves and your healer will love you for your heal amp :)

A bastard sword sound very nice and fits the theme well but be prepared to loose agro to your party members due to lack in dps, you'll need dps in ddo as a tank because intimidation allone will not work on its own.
A barb will have those same 2 handed fighting feats aswell as cleave/greatcleave.

I do not recommend the house denith bastard sword build for a first life paladin, it boxes you interms of feats..
and paladins dont get too many feats.
The costs for (the future) enhancements are unknown but usually a tank needs most of them for tanking.

i agree on cleave/greatcleave, it very good at low level, but they are needed for Overwhelming Critical, an epic feat you might wanne work to in your end life. it does require 23 str too.
metamagics to complement your healing and agro boosting enhancements might be wiser then the third 2 handed fighting feat.

In de past i have taken 2 monk levels on my paladin (even after the introduction of prr), walking around in plate but switching to the parasitic breastplate for caster bosses like the abbot. (who didnt need tanking btw)

unbongwah
07-19-2013, 11:17 AM
Trying to understand why no-one has mentioned for me the all important feat for a Sword + Board Tank - Improved Shield Bash - http://ddowiki.com/page/Improved_Shield_Bash
Because ISB is pretty weak, pallies are feat-starved, and there aren't a lot of great "DPS" shields. I add it to my ftr tanks, because hey a little more DPS is a little more DPS, but never to a pally.

Anyway, I prefer pally tanks with a monk or ftr splash; but were I to level a 28-pt pure pally tank, I would start out as a DPS-focused HotD for the first several levels:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 11 Lawful Good Human Female
(11 Paladin)
Hit Points: 205
Spell Points: 125
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 6
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 11)
Strength 16 19
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 17

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Then before taking lvl 12, I would swap Toughness for Shield Mastery and switch to DoS:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 25 Lawful Good Human Female
(20 Paladin \ 5 Epic)
Hit Points: 402
Spell Points: 260
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 14
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 25)
Strength 16 25
Dexterity 8 10
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 15
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 21 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 22 (Paladin)


Level 23 (Paladin)


Level 24 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 25 (Paladin)


Skills: max Intim, UMD, and Concentration; if you take a +2 INT tome @ lvl 7, I would put the extra pts into Balance (a prone tank is a useless tank).

Without the THF feats to boost your glancing blows, I think you're better off using scimitars rather than splurging a precious feat on b.sword prof. When you first hit epics, Oathblade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Oathblade) is a pretty decent "starter" weapon, along with the PDK set (http://ddowiki.com/page/Commendation:_Purple_Dragon_Knights) if you don't have better gear by then; Commendation farming is boring, but not too tough for a newbie, IMHO. If you Twist in Rejuvenation Cocoon someday, I'd swap Maximize for Emp Heal; otherwise Max provides more oomph to your CSWs.

I thought about tweaking stats a bit to squeeze in Divine Might IV, but I'd probably have to drop heal amp III to get it - doesn't seem worth it.

Ralmeth
07-19-2013, 12:07 PM
In regards to the discussion of a tank not being needed 99% of the time, I totally 100% disagree. This is really not true. I believe that the assumption when stating this is that you are in a group of experienced, well built, well equipped characters that can totally handle themselves. In this case, I agree you don't need a tank most of the time and higher DPS is more helpful. This is why a well built, well played tank needs to have a good DPS mode. However, people will not always be in a vet group running epic quests. In fact, I would think there are quite a number people in PUGs running heroic quests, and having a S&B tank can be quite helpful some of the time.

A well played tank is someone who recognizes the group and situation they are in, and adjusts their play style accordingly to best help the group. If the group needs DPS, then the tank should maximize DPS. If the group could benefit from a tank, then tank.

SerPounce
07-19-2013, 04:30 PM
I'm surprised how many outdated opinions about S&B are here.

S&B can do good DPS for their defense if built, geared, and played property. Yes, not as much as 2HF/2WF , but the survivability difference is significant making it a reasonable trade off.

You need:
Dwarf axe/bastard sword
2HF
Imp. 2HF
Grt. 2HF
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical
Power Attack
Overwhelming critical

For a paladin, this means for practical purposes you'll need to be human with a monk or fighter spash. I prefer monk splash for S&B because once you have all the PRR from defensive stance and shield, the loss from using light armor is more than made up for with evasion and your great pally saves.

Also, holding aggro shouldn't be a problem in epic. You just need to spam intolerant blows when the DPS is going all out. That's really not a problem on a pally, you'll have plenty of smites, just *never use smite except for intolerant blows*. This does mean that you have to be in sentinel if you want to tank until you can twist IB. OK, furyshot can be a problem, but if it's a tanking situation and someone does that on second 1 of the fight it's kind of their fault. If you have a full IB to get aggro you'll be fine, and that's just 12 seconds.

IB averages +600% aggro, combined with DoS w/ shield +150%, and +100% from Divine Righteousness, you're getting 850% threat.

I do prefer 2HF over S&B pallies right now, but that's mostly do to with the crappy selection of bastard swords and dwarf axes compared to two handers than the build and abilities which work fine.

Charononus
07-19-2013, 04:42 PM
I'm surprised how many outdated opinions about S&B are here.

S&B can do good DPS for their defense if built, geared, and played property. Yes, not as much as 2HF/2WF , but the survivability difference is significant making it a reasonable trade off.

You need:
Dwarf axe/bastard sword
2HF
Imp. 2HF
Grt. 2HF
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical
Power Attack
Overwhelming critical

For a paladin, this means for practical purposes you'll need to be human with a monk or fighter spash. I prefer monk splash for S&B because once you have all the PRR from defensive stance and shield, the loss from using light armor is more than made up for with evasion and your great pally saves.

Also, holding aggro shouldn't be a problem in epic. You just need to spam intolerant blows when the DPS is going all out. That's really not a problem on a pally, you'll have plenty of smites, just *never use smite except for intolerant blows*. This does mean that you have to be in sentinel if you want to tank until you can twist IB. OK, furyshot can be a problem, but if it's a tanking situation and someone does that on second 1 of the fight it's kind of their fault. If you have a full IB to get aggro you'll be fine, and that's just 12 seconds.

IB averages +600% aggro, combined with DoS w/ shield +150%, and +100% from Divine Righteousness, you're getting 850% threat.

I do prefer 2HF over S&B pallies right now, but that's mostly do to with the crappy selection of bastard swords and dwarf axes compared to two handers than the build and abilities which work fine.

You need to wait a good minute or more to fury shot, just did a fot a couple nights ago and I pulled aggro at the end of it every time vs the to. The tank was using intolerant blow. Now he got it back pretty quick, but you can pull aggro regardless and this would just be amplified if I had 3x ranger and monk lives etc.

SerPounce
07-19-2013, 05:31 PM
You need to wait a good minute or more to fury shot, just did a fot a couple nights ago and I pulled aggro at the end of it every time vs the to. The tank was using intolerant blow. Now he got it back pretty quick, but you can pull aggro regardless and this would just be amplified if I had 3x ranger and monk lives etc.

TTO is a particular problem for a S&B tank because you either have to use a warhammer and give up glancing blows (about 25% DPS hit) or not break his DR. I don't recommend using a shield while tanking TTO (at least on hard) if there are big aggro people in the group.

Also keep in mind that TTO has a spinning move where it looks like the tank looses aggro, but really doesn't. He's also just a b**ch about knocking you down (through knockdown immunity) right when you activate and ability and all that. IMO it's not that big a deal to loose aggro once or twice in there anyway. He's not that dangerous, it's nothing like having Horoth running around killing people was when doing ToD back in the day.

I can definitely hold aggro on my pally against furyshot in more normal situation (He's 2HF now, but has been S&B in the past), and he's not that uber.

bsquishwizzy
07-19-2013, 05:48 PM
I’m going to add one caveat to the “tanking is not required for 99% of the game.” It may not be required, but it can be very useful in more than 40% of the content. If you have people who can beat-down mobs well, turning tank in the heat of the moment can be a real boon to the party.

A couple of prime quests I can think of where tanks can be helpful are Redwillows Ruins, and one of the Necro quests where you run from fire to fire with respawing wraiths and shadows (can’t remember the quest off the top of my head at the moment). Run and aggro mobs, intimidate, hit the shift key, and have the wizzy / sorc lay down firewalls. Very useful when in situations with lots of melee mobs (not so good with ranged mobs).

Another one that kinda comes to mind is Jungles of Khyber.

Tanking is what you make of it.

Secondly, keep in mind that apparently there will be some changes to DoS when the enhancement pass comes around, or so I’ve been told. Gone will be THF in favor of straight S&B. Someone correctly me if I am wrong on this (never got to try this with my pally on lamannia).

Charononus
07-19-2013, 05:56 PM
TTO is a particular problem for a S&B tank because you either have to use a warhammer and give up glancing blows (about 25% DPS hit) or not break his DR. I don't recommend using a shield while tanking TTO (at least on hard) if there are big aggro people in the group.

Also keep in mind that TTO has a spinning move where it looks like the tank looses aggro, but really doesn't. He's also just a b**ch about knocking you down (through knockdown immunity) right when you activate and ability and all that. IMO it's not that big a deal to loose aggro once or twice in there anyway. He's not that dangerous, it's nothing like having Horoth running around killing people was when doing ToD back in the day.

I can definitely hold aggro on my pally against furyshot in more normal situation (He's 2HF now, but has been S&B in the past), and he's not that uber.

When I many shot I tend to back up five steps or so, so that I'm not in range of any of his knockdown **** when i don't have to be , he turned and ran over to me at that point. I agree though he's not as bad as horoth used to be.

EllisDee37
07-19-2013, 06:19 PM
A couple of prime quests I can think of where tanks can be helpful are Redwillows Ruins, and one of the Necro quests where you run from fire to fire with respawing wraiths and shadows (can’t remember the quest off the top of my head at the moment). Run and aggro mobs, intimidate, hit the shift key, and have the wizzy / sorc lay down firewalls. Very useful when in situations with lots of melee mobs (not so good with ranged mobs).

Another one that kinda comes to mind is Jungles of Khyber.Undead can't be intimidated.

Charononus
07-19-2013, 06:20 PM
Undead can't be intimidated.

Mindless undead can't be I know, but can't oh what's the word mindful undead be intimed? I'm not positive on this I'm actually asking.

EllisDee37
07-19-2013, 06:43 PM
Mindless undead can't be I know, but can't oh what's the word mindful undead be intimed? I'm not positive on this I'm actually asking.Actually, I think I may be wrong. The prospect of a raid boss (Truthful One) who can't be intimidated doesn't sound right at all, so I can't imagine there's a blanket immunity for undead against intim/diplo/bluff.

Soulfurnace
07-19-2013, 08:39 PM
In regards to the discussion of a tank not being needed 99% of the time, I totally 100% disagree. This is really not true.

And I'll disagree with that.
My first toon felt no need for a tank. No, most of the content is just a joke. And the rest? You can do it anyway.
My mate and I differ on the usefulness of a tank. He sees them as the glue of a team... I see them as someone who needs HJEALZ while contributing less dps than the "healer".

FranOhmsford
07-19-2013, 09:12 PM
And I'll disagree with that.
My first toon felt no need for a tank. No, most of the content is just a joke. And the rest? You can do it anyway.
My mate and I differ on the usefulness of a tank. He sees them as the glue of a team... I see them as someone who needs HJEALZ while contributing less dps than the "healer".

Hey he rarely plays anymore because of issues with logging in mainly BUT I'm pretty certain there's a number of people on Cannith who'd recognize Celcia! - I have a similarly named character {My Arti Celeia} and have received tells from people thinking I'm him {clearly they DIDN'T look at the Class!}

This ^ is the guy who got me into DDO in the first place!

And we've had these conversations on many occasions where he's been absolutely insistent that a "Good Tank" makes this game so much easier {throughout the game and not just in FoT, LoB etc.}.

Unfortunately a "Good Tank" is also one of the GRINDIEST Builds to play Gearwise!

So - Getting there is for me FAR more important than the End of the Road!

If you concentrate on DPS while Levelling up and FORGET about the Tanking you'll miss out on the Gear you'll need at that point when you're actually needed as a Tank!
You'll have to go back over your Enhancements of course AND Possibly Feats too!
Basically you'll be forced into Re-Building your character!

WHEN it would have made more sense to actually learn how to play that tank whilst Leveling up!

Look - I've gone back to one of my Stalwarts {a Fighter NOT a Pally} recently {and yes he was created as a Chimera's Fang Build} and at Lvl 13 he was missing a number of required Feats.
At Lvl 15 he's still missing some {incl. Greater Dragonmark of Sentinel which isn't needed till 20} BUT I've got my Improved Shield Bashing Finally!

AND FINALLY he can actually swing his Shield!

Seriously - When considering MAX DPS maybe Imp Shield Bash isn't the BEST Feat in the World BUT it's a heck of a Boost to a Sword & Board Tank!

Soulfurnace
07-19-2013, 09:20 PM
But while leveling, you do NOT need a tank - and come epics, you still don't need one, aside from a few quests.
The rest of the time, my mates will put down their shield (exception of 1, but he's strange) and pull out a 2h - because they realize that S&B tanking isn't needed all the time.
And people change enhancements all the time... That's just an accepted thing. Esp while leveling.

KosmicRider
07-19-2013, 09:30 PM
I love these forums. Everyone is so nice and helpful.
I think I might just go either 2 lvls of monk or 2 levels of fighter. I also plan on doing heavy crafting so I can create my own holy weapon early to get an advantage in those levels.

SerPounce
07-20-2013, 12:15 AM
And I'll disagree with that.
My first toon felt no need for a tank. No, most of the content is just a joke. And the rest? You can do it anyway.
My mate and I differ on the usefulness of a tank. He sees them as the glue of a team... I see them as someone who needs HJEALZ while contributing less dps than the "healer".

A paladin tank really shouldn't need heals. I run BYOH (and sometimes solo) EE on my paladin pretty regularly, and don't die more than anyone else while having plenty of aggro. If a Pally tank is just another DPS needing heals something is wrong.

The problem is thinking in terms of DPS vs. Tank. It's more like moving along the offense vs. defense curve to a point that works for you. Being on either extreme of that curve is very sub-optimal in the current content and gaming environment.

guyge1
08-08-2013, 10:17 PM
Love my Pallys

Battlehawke
08-08-2013, 10:54 PM
Tons of good advice so far from everyone. You can see that there are so many different opinions and playstyles for this Iconic and favored D&D Class. All of this WILL change in the Enhancement Pass in a few weeks.

My advice: Play the way you want to play and you will put it all together to meet your playstyle. Consider all this valuable advice. My input:

Lvl 1 Human - Toughness, Power Attack
Lvl 3 - Cleave
Lvl 6 - Great Cleave
Lvl 7 Fighter - Shield Mastery (& FREE Tower Shield)
Lvl 9 - Imp Crit Slashing
Lvl 12 - Quicken (faster healing)
Lvl 14 Fighter - Imp Shield Mastery
Lvl 15 - Exotic; B-Sword
Lvl 18 - Two Handed Fighting
Lvl 21 - Overwhelming Critical
Lvl 24 - Improved Thf
Lvl 27 - Greater Thf


Good Luck and have Fun!
B

Battlehawke
08-08-2013, 11:16 PM
Just a quick note and some feeling of comfort. At later "Epic" levels some Epic Destinies have great synergy with the Paladin and really begin to help it shine. 1) Unyielding Sentinel obviously when Tanking. This ED adds some needed PRR, AC, Hate Aggro and Survivability. 2) Legendary Dreadnaught adds some real top notch DPS. (You can toggle through all the Special moves/Cleaves from the ED and feat list all while Sword & Boarding and Shield Blocking the whole time..... its really cool while tanking bosses) 3) Fury works as well to add some nice DPS especially for some powerful THF Fury Smites. For twists, depending on what ED I'm in: Cacoon (my fleshy blue bar favorite. It makes me feel invincible), Brace for Impact (Obvious Defense), Sense Weakness (makes them go down faster), and/or LD Haste Boost (Holy Fast Attacks).

Ultimately, remember the versatility and survivability of a Paladin.

If you want a great build, do a search for the Pyrene build. Its not a Tank, but its one of the Best Paladins out there.

Irenae
02-06-2014, 12:13 AM
Actually, there is a fair number of quests where a S&B tank is needed, not for the party but instead to babysit npcs who are necessary to the quest. It's not a glam job, but it is a necessary one, lest said npc die and make you fail the quest.