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View Full Version : bladeforged iconics suck.... which they do NOT do on live...



Scrag
07-15-2013, 08:22 AM
So. Lets assume you play a straight bladeforged, splitting your points between just sacred defender and your racial points.

The racial points are what make bladeforged what they are... At 15, if you spend 15ish points in your racial pool, you simply do not have enough points to splash kotc with sacred defender. What does that mean? You are effectively gimped. Trying to get use out of my racial means I lost things like extra lay, extra turn, that 5 hp 1 sp damage attack thing, so on so forth. In fact, generally speaking, I am so much more inefficient that it just isn't funny.

The one advantage is that I can spam (for a limited time) reconstruct, which keeps me up a very large amount of time, which sort of offsets the loss of hps, but certainly does not make up for the bits I lost that I can only get from kotc.....

Iriale
07-15-2013, 08:46 AM
All racial trees have this problem now. We need spread in several class trees and the "points spend in the tree" thing implies that there is few APs to spend on the racial tree. And of course, in the racial tree we must also respect the points spent in the tree and there are s lot of things linked.

Racial trees are not currently very functional. See halfelf dilettante... very expensive. Now the good races are those with strong racial benefits. Racial enhancementes not count much, because they are too expensive with this system.

Alavatar
07-15-2013, 09:20 AM
I have that problem on my Shadar-Kai, only worse. I want to spend something like 34 points in that tree.

Scrag
07-15-2013, 09:30 AM
I have that problem on my Shadar-Kai, only worse. I want to spend something like 34 points in that tree.

Wow thats a lot of points.... I don't know anything aboud shadar-kai, but I could see spending a few more points in my racial, perhaps 20-25 points total.... -_-, which I have no clue where I could get.

Noctus
07-15-2013, 11:07 AM
Yeah, points spend in the racial tree need to count for spending prereqs in class trees. Perhaps fully might be a bit too much, but at least half of them should be taken into account.

Otherwise the opportunity cost of investing in racial abilities is very high, to the point of even reaching not-affordable territory.

Dandonk
07-15-2013, 11:15 AM
Yeah, points spend in the racial tree need to count for spending prereqs in class trees. Perhaps fully might be a bit too much, but at least half of them should be taken into account.

Otherwise the opportunity cost of investing in racial abilities is very high, to the point of even reaching not-affordable territory.

Agree completely.

Maelphistez
07-15-2013, 11:33 AM
Probably too late for this, but it would be nice if there were a "racial only" pool of points. Perhaps 1 point every 3rd or 4th level (continuing into Epic levels) that could be spent only within your racial tree. You could always supplement in if you want, but those racial points could not be spent outside of the racial tree.

ArcaneArcher52689
07-15-2013, 01:00 PM
Yeah, points spend in the racial tree need to count for spending prereqs in class trees. Perhaps fully might be a bit too much, but at least half of them should be taken into account.

Otherwise the opportunity cost of investing in racial abilities is very high, to the point of even reaching not-affordable territory.


I'm not sure this is necessary for all races, but i think you may have a point as far as iconics are concerned.

Iconic racial trees are supposed to be more enticing/more supportive than the other racial, as well as tied to a specific class, so it'd make sense if the first core in the iconic tree said something like "As you progress further down the path of the lord of blades, the ways of the paladin become more clear to you. For every 2 points pent into this tree, the tier cost of your paladin enhancements is reduced by 1(aka, t5, normally 30pts, would require 25pts if there were 10pts spent in tree)

Scrag
07-15-2013, 01:45 PM
I'm not sure this is necessary for all races, but i think you may have a point as far as iconics are concerned.

Iconic racial trees are supposed to be more enticing/more supportive than the other racial, as well as tied to a specific class, so it'd make sense if the first core in the iconic tree said something like "As you progress further down the path of the lord of blades, the ways of the paladin become more clear to you. For every 2 points pent into this tree, the tier cost of your paladin enhancements is reduced by 1(aka, t5, normally 30pts, would require 25pts if there were 10pts spent in tree)

I fully agree with this sentiment. When I heard I would be picking up reconstruction, I was like Great! Something useful I could really use! And then I actually tried to pick it up with enh points, and BAM! got screwed on my paladin (which were the _only_ enhs I took, and from one tree only at that). It wasn't like I was trying to do anything other than paladin it up....

patang01
07-15-2013, 03:27 PM
Lay on hands is a pretty iconic feature of Paladins as it is. I just can't understand why it's in only 1 tree and not the other?

It's not the Iconic Bladeforge that suks - it's the mindbending split of what used to be shared paladin features and now forced into separate trees.

Nascoe
07-16-2013, 10:46 AM
I'm not sure this is necessary for all races, but i think you may have a point as far as iconics are concerned.

Iconic racial trees are supposed to be more enticing/more supportive than the other racial, as well as tied to a specific class, so it'd make sense if the first core in the iconic tree said something like "As you progress further down the path of the lord of blades, the ways of the paladin become more clear to you. For every 2 points pent into this tree, the tier cost of your paladin enhancements is reduced by 1(aka, t5, normally 30pts, would require 25pts if there were 10pts spent in tree)

Not sure that solution is exactly the best but it does need something. Now we end up either going for more or less the whole racial tree (sharar-kai - as mentioned above) or just won't be able to use it much. I think the racial tree should really be based on points spent in total, or at least for the Iconics it should be combined with the tree for the default class so that points spent on the special enhancements for the Iconic help you get forward in Paladin and those in Paladin help you in your racial tree (for Bladeforged - classes adjusted for each Iconic).

Alistina
07-16-2013, 09:41 PM
Probably too late for this, but it would be nice if there were a "racial only" pool of points. Perhaps 1 point every 3rd or 4th level (continuing into Epic levels) that could be spent only within your racial tree. You could always supplement in if you want, but those racial points could not be spent outside of the racial tree.

I like the idea :cool:

Its a good way to solve the high AP cost problem with most builds

Delacroix21
07-16-2013, 11:18 PM
The real issue is that racial trees cost to many APs, or that there aren't enough APs for players to spend.


If epic levels added 4 more APs per level this would help greatly. Also there are still TOO MANY 2 ap abilities and over half the abilities have 3 tiers. Make everything cost 1ap, get rid of this 2ap nonsense.


Every build i make feels extremely AP starved.

Dandonk
07-17-2013, 01:34 AM
The real issue is that racial trees cost to many APs, or that there aren't enough APs for players to spend.


If epic levels added 4 more APs per level this would help greatly. Also there are still TOO MANY 2 ap abilities and over half the abilities have 3 tiers. Make everything cost 1ap, get rid of this 2ap nonsense.


Every build i make feels extremely AP starved.

Once again I find myself in complete agreement.

samthedagger
07-17-2013, 04:56 AM
I believe that if they lowered the threshold of points spent required to access higher level tiers this would help alleviate the OP's problem. Ideally however, there should be no "points spent in tree" prerequisites, at least not for racial trees. The problem we have now is that EVERYTHING class-based is a prestige enhancement. So things that used to be available to any paladin regardless of prestige are now tied to a prestige.

Iriale
07-17-2013, 06:49 AM
Yes, I have said this since alpha: we need class trees. Paladin is not the only class with this problem. It's a general problem. And general class treees + prestige trees work ok with the new interface.

But racial trees shouldn't have the "points spend in the tree" requeriment. Level requisite is needed, and nothing more. Racial trees should be different to class trees. They are killing a lot of races. Not only the shiny new iconics. Halfelf, for example, is a not free race whose appeal is in their dilletante enhancements. And there are problems with more races, free or not free.

I don't think we need more APs. 80 are fine. I think we need a more rational organization of the trees and less restrictions with points spend in tree. In my lammania builds I must pick enhancements that I don't want. It's not a problem of few APs, I think.

patang01
07-17-2013, 08:08 AM
I agree the main problem is the split of what is class based enhancements between restricted prestige classes. That forces you to waste points trying to get what should be fundamental class features by spending so many points in trees for enhancements you didn't need before.

So there are two problems - spend in tree restrictions and the split of core class features between prestige classes.

azrael4h
07-17-2013, 07:21 PM
Yes, I have said this since alpha: we need class trees. Paladin is not the only class with this problem. It's a general problem. And general class treees + prestige trees work ok with the new interface.

But racial trees shouldn't have the "points spend in the tree" requeriment. Level requisite is needed, and nothing more. Racial trees should be different to class trees. They are killing a lot of races. Not only the shiny new iconics. Halfelf, for example, is a not free race whose appeal is in their dilletante enhancements. And there are problems with more races, free or not free.

I don't think we need more APs. 80 are fine. I think we need a more rational organization of the trees and less restrictions with points spend in tree. In my lammania builds I must pick enhancements that I don't want. It's not a problem of few APs, I think.

Class trees were a common statement way back in the original let's talk thread. Then the devs cry and wonder why no one believes them when they trot out the old "we want feedback". They've ignored all feedback. *shrug*

hi_sa1nt
07-20-2013, 05:37 PM
Man, I like the new UI of the enhancement system... but it sucks when I can't utilize the enhancements to help out my toon... so, once again, a revamp needs to be done to where I'm not AP starved.

nayozz
08-12-2013, 11:32 AM
well, what about...

having 100 action points to spend instead of 80 ?
or
what about having 20 points to spend on racial tree, while the others 80 can be spent on class tree or racial tree ?

Nodoze
08-12-2013, 01:16 PM
well, what about...

having 100 action points to spend instead of 80 ?
or
what about having 20 points to spend on racial tree, while the others 80 can be spent on class tree or racial tree ?I like this idea the most. Allowing points spent in one tree count toward another will likely result in even more cherry picking min/maxing.

Satyriasys
08-12-2013, 01:26 PM
The current system promotes difficult choices which is a good thing. It is sort of strange however that we have no class trees and the prestiges don't require any prerequisites. So they are not really prestiges at all.