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View Full Version : Random effect on Named loot: NO.



Wizza
07-13-2013, 03:52 AM
For the ones who missed it from the picturs showed by Squeak, read at the end of his post:

Prisoner's manacles:

Epic Elite
Incite +30%
Reinforced Fists
Random Effect
Empty Green Augment Slot
Empty Colorless Augment Slot


Fell shiv:

Epic Elite
+4 Enhancement Bonus
Greater Vorpal
Random Effect
Empty Red Augment Slot



Stolen necklace:

Epic Elite
Charisma +10
Random Effect
Empty Yellow Augment Slot


Prison break:

Epic Elite
+7 Enhancement Bonus
Random Effect
Random Effect
Empty Red Augment Slot



Skullduggery kit:

Epic Elite
Intelligence Skills – Exceptional Bonus +6
Dexterity Skills – Exceptional Bonus +6
Random Effect
Empty Green Augment Slot


I see EVERY PIECE OF NAMED LOOT have 1 or EVEN TWO "Random effect" on it.

Developers, this is a plea from your players, because I'm sure I'm not the only one:

WE DO NOT WANT RANDOM EFFECTS ON NAMED LOOT. WE DO NOT LIKE TO PLAY THE LOTTERY, SPECIALLY ON EPIC ELITE QUESTS.

You know why noone bothers with ES Challenges? BECAUSE THE LOOT RANDOMIZED SUCKS. We have made this very clear when Eveningstar challenges came up. Now, you have the guts to put randomized effects on EE NAMED LOOT.

There is still time. Whoever is in charge of these items (Feather_of_Sun, I've no doubt he is in charge of items) needs to step up and say "Sorry, I will try to come up with something better and without random effects" because apparently he didn't get the memo why noone ever bothers with ES challenges.

Just to make it clear, maybe it is not so clear from this post:

PLAYERS DO NOT WANT RANDOM EFFECTS ON NAMED LOOT.

Dragon.Star
07-13-2013, 04:43 AM
For the ones who missed it from the picturs showed by Squeak, read at the end of his post:

Prisoner's manacles:

Epic Elite
Incite +30%
Reinforced Fists
Random Effect
Empty Green Augment Slot
Empty Colorless Augment Slot


Fell shiv:

Epic Elite
+4 Enhancement Bonus
Greater Vorpal
Random Effect
Empty Red Augment Slot



Stolen necklace:

Epic Elite
Charisma +10
Random Effect
Empty Yellow Augment Slot


Prison break:

Epic Elite
+7 Enhancement Bonus
Random Effect
Random Effect
Empty Red Augment Slot



Skullduggery kit:

Epic Elite
Intelligence Skills – Exceptional Bonus +6
Dexterity Skills – Exceptional Bonus +6
Random Effect
Empty Green Augment Slot


I see EVERY PIECE OF NAMED LOOT have 1 or EVEN TWO "Random effect" on it.

Developers, this is a plea from your players, because I'm sure I'm not the only one:

WE DO NOT WANT RANDOM EFFECTS ON NAMED LOOT. WE DO NOT LIKE TO PLAY THE LOTTERY, SPECIALLY ON EPIC ELITE QUESTS.

You know why noone bothers with ES Challenges? BECAUSE THE LOOT RANDOMIZED SUCKS. We have made this very clear when Eveningstar challenges came up. Now, you have the guts to put randomized effects on EE NAMED LOOT.

There is still time. Whoever is in charge of these items (Feather_of_Sun, I've no doubt he is in charge of items) needs to step up and say "Sorry, I will try to come up with something better and without random effects" because apparently he didn't get the memo why noone ever bothers with ES challenges.

Just to make it clear, maybe it is not so clear from this post:

PLAYERS DO NOT WANT RANDOM EFFECTS ON NAMED LOOT.

While having random effects on an item can be grindy and luck at times. I love the mechanic.

Who doesn't like the GH items that gave different stats to the helms and Goggles and other gear that is useful. At least with some randomness, the item doesn't get pigeon holed into 1 class/build only. (ex how may people would go after Blue dragon helm if it only provided +8 wisdom?).

This is just an opinion from some one that does like Random Effects, so obviously not all players dislike it.

zwiebelring
07-13-2013, 05:28 AM
People who plan their gear setups don't like random effects.

Wizza
07-13-2013, 05:32 AM
While having random effects on an item can be grindy and luck at times. I love the mechanic.

Who doesn't like the GH items that gave different stats to the helms and Goggles and other gear that is useful. At least with some randomness, the item doesn't get pigeon holed into 1 class/build only. (ex how may people would go after Blue dragon helm if it only provided +8 wisdom?).

This is just an opinion from some one that does like Random Effects, so obviously not all players dislike it.

The mechanic is stupid. Just curious: do you grind ES challenges to have the uber combination of stats? Please don't answer yes, I know it would be a lie :rolleyes:

GH Helms/Goggles are a different thing from these items. Here looks like you can have all sort of things on them. You don't see a blue helm with 1 PRR on it. Why would they let holy IV to be on EE item? Why AC on a caster necklace? It does NOT make any sense.

Helm and goggles can only have the stat different, to appeal different needs for a character. Here we are playing the lottery.

Also, there is no need to quote the entire OP to reply.

Dragon.Star
07-13-2013, 06:03 AM
People who plan their gear setups don't like random effects.

A plan my gear layouts a ton, ask anyone from my guild, I'm constantly recalculating gear layout. I don't exlude random items when doing that. I decide what fits my build and play style and try and go after it.


The mechanic is stupid. Just curious: do you grind ES challenges to have the uber combination of stats? Please don't answer yes, I know it would be a lie :rolleyes:

GH Helms/Goggles are a different thing from these items. Here looks like you can have all sort of things on them. You don't see a blue helm with 1 PRR on it. Why would they let holy IV to be on EE item? Why AC on a caster necklace? It does NOT make any sense.

Helm and goggles can only have the stat different, to appeal different needs for a character. Here we are playing the lottery.

Also, there is no need to quote the entire OP to reply.

Yes I farmed ES Challenges for the Cloaks for several of my toons (hated it but did it). As for the random items from there, never saw any real benefit from them at all for my toons.

as for quoting the whole OP post, that is my choice, not yours.

Wizza
07-13-2013, 06:09 AM
A plan my gear layouts a ton, ask anyone from my guild, I'm constantly recalculating gear layout. I don't exlude random items when doing that. I decide what fits my build and play style and try and go after it.

You don't exclude random items? Of course you don't, we haven't any at the moment :rolleyes:




Yes I farmed ES Challenges for the Cloaks for several of my toons (hated it but did it). As for the random items from there, never saw any real benefit from them at all for my toons.

as for quoting the whole OP post, that is my choice, not yours.

Cloaks are not Randomized.

Exactly, you never saw any real benefit from them because there aren't.

Let me be clearer:

You know which kind of loot is there beside named items? Right. RANDOM GENERATED LOOT. We don't need Random effects on NAMED ITEMS. We have them already on Random loot. We don't want Random effects on named items.

If you like playing the lottery, go and farm chests until you get an uber necklace with Charisma +20, AC +30, SP +4000, Deadly XXL.


As for quoting the OP: your choice is to make this thread unread-able. What an awesome person you are :rolleyes:

redspecter23
07-13-2013, 07:25 AM
Random effects are what lootgen is for.

Did you listen to the feedback from CitW loot with random effects? Grudgingly, yes.

Did you listen to the feedback from Eveningstar Challenge gear? Nope.

Open your eyes and read the text and listen this time. Random effects on named gear is a bad idea. I hate it. Others hate it also. It increases grind in an area that already has a large grind associated with it.

Wizza
07-13-2013, 07:34 AM
Random effects are what lootgen is for.

Did you listen to the feedback from CitW loot with random effects? Grudgingly, yes.

Did you listen to the feedback from Eveningstar Challenge gear? Nope.

Open your eyes and read the text and listen this time. Random effects on named gear is a bad idea. I hate it. Others hate it also. It increases grind in an area that already has a large grind associated with it.

Pretty much this.

Gwyxxx
07-13-2013, 07:59 AM
I don't like a lot Random on Named Too.
I've done the shortsword of evening star only because i liked them a lot, and there was a short number of combination in the random effects. I've never found "holy" and this is very boring for me.

Random effect are quite ok only if they are an extra in a very powerful item.
But if i find a Charisma +10 Neck (And I play Bards, so I'll search it) will be disappointing after a difficult elite quest, find the a bad random effect, instead of the good one.

At least we can sell exchange and sell this items, the evening star challenge ones are worst.
But i don't link Random on Named, anyway.

rnetusilBeta1
07-13-2013, 08:25 AM
I think this has the potential to be a decent mechanic, but only if the "random" enchantment is restricted to one of 5-6 variants that fit thematically with the other enchantments.

For example, maybe the EE skulduggery kit has +10 Int, +10 Dex, +4 Insightful Dex, +4 Insightful Int, and maybe one or two new enchantments.

People accept the randomness on the dragonhelms because each variant is appropriate for a different class/build. No one is looking for a black dragonhelm with illusion or enchantment mastery.

Restrict the possibilities to a small number of thematically appropriate (and appropriately powerful) variants, rather than trash lootgen tables.

oradafu
07-13-2013, 08:38 AM
Remember back when MOTU first came out and absolutely no one liked the random effects on named or turn-in loot. We were told that players absolutely love the randomness of loot, even though there was not a single positive piece of feedback in the forums. Well, I think we just found the two people that the Devs listen to when it comes to loot.

Drwaz99
07-13-2013, 12:40 PM
JSNTREP!

(just say no to random effects period)

Mindsunder random effect completely failed on the Dream Edge..Nobody wants it, nobody ever wanted it. And pardon the pun in regards to the quest series, the Dream Edge is a nightmare.

Cetus
07-13-2013, 01:24 PM
The only time I "LIKE" random effects is if I'm given full control over what goes in said random "slot". And pulling an already complete random piece of named treasure does not fit the bill. Using augments or barter UI's to pick an effect is much more to my liking.

Again, why do I feel compelled to give feedback on something that is already in stone.

Sigh...

dejafu
07-13-2013, 04:59 PM
While I personally don't like the random loot effects so much, either, I'm 99% certain it's a trend that's going to stay for the following reasons:


Random effects make an item accessible to more builds. Imagine how irritating it would be if epic Blue Dragon Helms, for example, only came in Intelligence bonuses. Wizards and artificers would love it, everybody else would feel left out. Similarly, random effects mean that one item effectively becomes several more. This means you have a wider variety of gear for less programming time.
Random effects mean that people will take longer grinding out their gear. This may be the most aggravating reason, but it makes a very pragmatic kind of sense: the longer it takes people to grind gear, the longer they continue to play the quests where it drops. I keep hearing time and again from people in-game that they don't feel much reason to run Gianthold anymore is because they already have the loot that they want, and many complain that the devs made it too easy to get top tier end-game loot by shifting from epic crafting to difficulty-based treasure. Gianthold loot tended to have somewhat fewer random aspects than MOTU, and that probably contributed to the speed at which people farmed it out.


Now, you can argue all you want about how much you don't like the above reasons from a player's perspective, but they're damned compelling from a development perspective. Especially now that the game is getting a lot less dev time since so much of the team has been shifted over to Turbine's new MMO.

Kambuk
07-13-2013, 05:35 PM
If there is going to be random effects and that can not be changed at this stage at least make the drop rate on these items in the 20-50% range (and not replace random loot).

This way if somehting useful does drop people will be likley to hand it off in the chest to somone who would make better use of it.

Kambuk

oradafu
07-13-2013, 06:04 PM
Random effects mean that people will take longer grinding out their gear. This may be the most aggravating reason, but it makes a very pragmatic kind of sense: the longer it takes people to grind gear, the longer they continue to play the quests where it drops. I keep hearing time and again from people in-game that they don't feel much reason to run Gianthold anymore is because they already have the loot that they want, and many complain that the devs made it too easy to get top tier end-game loot by shifting from epic crafting to difficulty-based treasure. Gianthold loot tended to have somewhat fewer random aspects than MOTU, and that probably contributed to the speed at which people farmed it out.



Do you really think people are going to want to grind random gear while leveling up to cap or leveling out EDs when there is going to be a 30% repeat penalty added? Random effects on gear was a bad idea before the new XP change... It's downright sadistic on the devs part and masochist on the players part with these new draconian XP penalities.

Wizza
07-13-2013, 06:12 PM
While I personally don't like the random loot effects so much, either, I'm 99% certain it's a trend that's going to stay for the following reasons:


Random effects make an item accessible to more builds. Imagine how irritating it would be if epic Blue Dragon Helms, for example, only came in Intelligence bonuses. Wizards and artificers would love it, everybody else would feel left out. Similarly, random effects mean that one item effectively becomes several more. This means you have a wider variety of gear for less programming time.
Random effects mean that people will take longer grinding out their gear. This may be the most aggravating reason, but it makes a very pragmatic kind of sense: the longer it takes people to grind gear, the longer they continue to play the quests where it drops. I keep hearing time and again from people in-game that they don't feel much reason to run Gianthold anymore is because they already have the loot that they want, and many complain that the devs made it too easy to get top tier end-game loot by shifting from epic crafting to difficulty-based treasure. Gianthold loot tended to have somewhat fewer random aspects than MOTU, and that probably contributed to the speed at which people farmed it out.


Now, you can argue all you want about how much you don't like the above reasons from a player's perspective, but they're damned compelling from a development perspective. Especially now that the game is getting a lot less dev time since so much of the team has been shifted over to Turbine's new MMO.

People will take longer grinding? Lol. People won't even bother with Random effects on Named items. I will probably farm a +10 Cha item and +5 Evo focus and that's it. I'm not going to bother to farm a super named item with +10 Cha, +5 Evo, + 280 SP, + Jesus Christ.

My rogue is not going to farm that dagger till I get Holy XX, Deadly XX and Force XX. I will keep my agonies thanks.

soloist12
07-13-2013, 07:05 PM
At least I don't need to stop farming my ideal set on live until the expansion, looks like I'm almost done my level 28 set at 25 already.

\o/

Munkenmo
07-13-2013, 07:25 PM
Random effect items are just more items I can gloss over and will refuse to grind for.

The main reason I don't run eveningstar challenges though isn't the random, it's the BTC ings. I'd make more cloaks if the ingredients were BTA, but I'd still skip over the weapons.

ZzpxpzZ
07-14-2013, 12:01 AM
I quite like random gen effects on items.

In response to the references to the random gen effects in the ES challenges, thats not a fair relation because random gen weapons have never been up to par with the specific named weapons because on weapons you only ever want 1 thing from them - damage.

Everywhere else I like the random mechanic.

I would say that its important to have restrictions though - they have to be randomized only among like type effects. You cant have a chance to get a stat or a chance to get vertigo.

Because basic effects like stats and damage and such are so wide spread in use but specific effects like boosts are much more build specific it means that compared to more specialized effects, the basic ones would be too valuable.

So break them down into pools of effect types and make each slot a specific type.

E.g.
Stats
Things like Deathblock, true seeing, blurry, other special effects like that.
combat DC types
etc.

kwyjibo_lol
07-14-2013, 01:14 AM
Agree with the above sentiments about not putting random on named items, it is far too weak minded. If the problem is too hard, let the community design the loot and preferably open to non-US citizens.

Wizza
07-14-2013, 02:56 AM
I quite like random gen effects on items.


Go and grind Random generated loot if you like random gen effects.

Leave Named items alone. They are called Named items for a reason.

oradafu
07-14-2013, 04:00 AM
To the people who like the randomness of the items in this expansion, we should be expecting more than randomness from an EXPANSION. This isn't some 250 TP quest pack, but something sold as being special.

Noctus
07-14-2013, 05:10 AM
Those who like random effects can grind out Random Loot.

The nice thing about Named Loot is that i know what i am getting and can plan my ideal gear layout accordingly, and after fiddling with it and putting some good thought into it, i can then start acquireing it (aka start the lootgrind).

I cant plan with random effects. Or at least not to a degree that the configuration of the item i would want and fits with the other planed gear setup would have a non-eyebleedingly-high-grindrequirement.


Please keep random loot for those that like to toss on whatever new shiny they find, and leave named loot for those who like to plan their gear layout (if they ever reach their ideal gear layout goal is a question for another page).

I personally do not grind without a clear destiny. And i seem not to be alone with this, as the total and utter flop of the Eveningstar Challenge Weapons proofes (the BtC ingredients did their part here too).

LightBear
07-14-2013, 07:12 AM
I like the limited randomness on named items like:
- The Dragon Helmets
- Wizard's Ward
- Seals of the various houses
- Drow weapons
- Planar focus'
- Some named armours

It does look like the new named items have a limited set of randomness on them as well.

I like to have options and am against pigeon hole restrictions.

Dandonk
07-14-2013, 09:07 AM
No.... just no. I haven't bothered with the ES challenges precisely because of the annoying randomness, nor tried to make a sunblade thingy. I really, really hate random effects on named items.

So just... no. Please?

A few random stats on dragonscale and so on is bad enough, this is just over the top.

noneill
07-14-2013, 10:25 AM
GH helms style random = good
Eveningstar challenge style random = bad

Do we know which kind of random these will be?
I will reserve judgement until I find out but hope that it is the good kind.

kwyjibo_lol
07-14-2013, 10:28 AM
Random effect items are just more items I can gloss over and will refuse to grind for.

Yup, they just keep on giving us darn good reasons to not bother with their epic content.

nibel
07-14-2013, 11:02 AM
I have absolutelly nothing against a few random items in a new pack (Mysterious Ring, Dream Edge, Rahl's Might, Shadowmail, Wizard's Ward, Dragon helms...). They are interesting, and may provide some extra flavor or option to certain builds.

I am absolutelly against every single named item in a new pack having one random atribute. Much less on two. This turns the iotem in basically a random loot item. Prison Break is the ur-example on this: No extra damage/crit, +7 enhancement bonus, red slot and two mutations. This is basically a random loot epic dwarven axe. The only benefit over random is the guaranteed red slot.

Deadlock
07-14-2013, 12:07 PM
See, this baffles me.

How long have Cormyrian weapons been out now?

There must be metrics that you can pull that show you how unpopular these are based on usage or ownership?

We don't want random stuff - unless that random effect can be changed at the cost of a non-Heroic commendation to something that we do want.

Wizza
07-15-2013, 07:28 AM
See, this baffles me.

How long have Cormyrian weapons been out now?

There must be metrics that you can pull that show you how unpopular these are based on usage or ownership?

We don't want random stuff - unless that random effect can be changed at the cost of a non-Heroic commendation to something that we do want.

Sure there is data of how much Cormyrian weapons suck. Just they won't admit it.

FoS or whoever else is in charge of loot is still sure that we love Random effects on loot. He maybe didn't understand that we love them ONLY on Random gen loot.

oradafu
07-15-2013, 07:45 AM
Sure there is data of how much Cormyrian weapons suck. Just they won't admit it.

FoS or whoever else is in charge of loot is still sure that we love Random effects on loot. He maybe didn't understand that we love them ONLY on Random gen loot.

Yeah, but who needs random loot when the named loot is just random effects?

Seriously, I'll give it 2 more updates and they'll phase out the BTC random loot in the game and we'll just be pulling BTC named loot with only random effects.

Wizza
07-15-2013, 07:49 AM
Yeah, but who needs random loot when the named loot is just random effects?

Seriously, I'll give it 2 more updates and they'll phase out the BTC random loot in the game and we'll just be pulling BTC named loot with only random effects.

We are already there. Prison break is actually a random generated item with a Red slot. Nothing more, nothing less.

oradafu
07-15-2013, 07:53 AM
We are already there. Prison break is actually a random generated item with a Red slot. Nothing more, nothing less.

I know. But the phasing out of the randomly generated items hasn't gone into full effect yet. That's why I predict it will happen within 2 updates. No more randomly generated items, just BTC named items that only contain random effects.

Mephisto-Helix
07-15-2013, 07:56 AM
I think whoever is in charge of making ridiculous changes like this has an ego issue ...... he/she likes it so stuff the playerbase, it will get pushed through no matter how much the playerbase absolutely hates it.

danotmano1998
07-15-2013, 08:54 AM
For the record...

Random effects belong on Random generated items. Hence their name!
Named Loot should not be random.

JOTMON
07-15-2013, 09:25 AM
Randomgen Named loot is lazy.

I am ok with the occasional Random named item that has something fun/unique.

I am even ok with random augments slotted in items because I can rewrite augments I want over them.

The higher the level I am the more control over what I have geared and slotted I want (this is what made Shroud so successful).

At low level I expect to get various items that are not as useful to me. as I level I get better gear and more flexibility to suit what I want.

Get rid of all these random effects and give these items 3 or 4 variable augments, more universal augment slots like green/violet in place of white or yellow so I can take advantage of augments from different area's, bring out more augments, rare augments from certain quests.

I want to see things like EE shiv be a +10 centered weapon that has a Bsword damage/crit profile, uses dex or intel for hit/damage, has greater vorpal and 2 red augment slots 1 of which is pre-filled with a rare augment like keen, vampirism.

Then this would be a weapon I would want to get for my rogue or even for another toon for the augments.

Give me named gear with a strong core inate item like a +10 stat, and 3-4 augment slots, pre-fill with whatever unusal random augments you want, I can choose to keep the augment or rework with something that would suit me better.

Stop with the random inate effects on these items...
I have no desire to run a quest 300 times for a 1 in 25 chance of having the named item drop, then a 1 in 12 chance of having the dropped named item have anything usefull and then have to roll against party members for said good item, while the undesired named ones (90%) rot in the chest.

Good Named items have a unique effect or level range impact that you cant get anywhere else that people want, this is what we expect from "Named" items, not something that can be easily superceded or replaced by a good random drop at the same level.

Things like bauble, torc, litany, tharnes, leviks, lorrics, TOD, Shroud... all have effects that you cant easily get anywhere else...
Now I want to see thee older effects recycled into augments slottable on higher level gear or their equivalent , or better... like the voice upgrade that is good for low levels...but voice kind of sucks for epic levels.. make the Epic Voice = epic slot worthy (combine all the effects from voice/cloak)..

.....Pay attention loot designers....
....we want more and better than the lower level stuff we already have access to (for the level range it applies)......
We are striving to ultimately have the best gear available to mesh with our prospective toons., we are not striving to run quests to have worse gear or more limited effects....
..useful to my toon=good, waste my time = bad...

so far = bad.... you need to make it = good.


This is an "Expansion" (a release of new content with new more better stuff) and is not a patch "update" (fixing and changing stuff because it doesnt work the way you want)..

Random new stuff looks good, named new stuff... not so much....
I should be excited about new quests and new named items ..
I am more excited by the random stuff and from what I have seen so far could care less about new content...
this is not a good start...

Cetus
07-15-2013, 09:52 AM
Randomgen Named loot is lazy.

I am ok with the occasional Random named item that has something fun/unique.

I am even ok with random augments slotted in items because I can rewrite augments I want over them.

The higher the level I am the more control over what I have geared and slotted I want (this is what made Shroud so successful).

At low level I expect to get various items that are not as useful to me. as I level I get better gear and more flexibility to suit what I want.

Get rid of all these random effects and give these items 3 or 4 variable augments, more universal augment slots like green/violet in place of white or yellow so I can take advantage of augments from different area's, bring out more augments, rare augments from certain quests.

I want to see things like EE shiv be a +10 centered weapon that has a Bsword damage/crit profile, uses dex or intel for hit/damage, has greater vorpal and 2 red augment slots 1 of which is pre-filled with a rare augment like keen, vampirism.

Then this would be a weapon I would want to get for my rogue or even for another toon for the augments.

Give me named gear with a strong core inate item like a +10 stat, and 3-4 augment slots, pre-fill with whatever unusal random augments you want, I can choose to keep the augment or rework with something that would suit me better.

Stop with the random inate effects on these items...
I have no desire to run a quest 300 times for a 1 in 25 chance of having the named item drop, then a 1 in 12 chance of having the dropped named item have anything usefull and then have to roll against party members for said good item, while the undesired named ones (90%) rot in the chest.

Good Named items have a unique effect or level range impact that you cant get anywhere else that people want, this is what we expect from "Named" items, not something that can be easily superceded or replaced by a good random drop at the same level.

Things like bauble, torc, litany, tharnes, leviks, lorrics, TOD, Shroud... all have effects that you cant easily get anywhere else...
Now I want to see thee older effects recycled into augments slottable on higher level gear or their equivalent , or better... like the voice upgrade that is good for low levels...but voice kind of sucks for epic levels.. make the Epic Voice = epic slot worthy (combine all the effects from voice/cloak)..

.....Pay attention loot designers....
....we want more and better than the lower level stuff we already have access to (for the level range it applies)......
We are striving to ultimately have the best gear available to mesh with our prospective toons., we are not striving to run quests to have worse gear or more limited effects....
..useful to my toon=good, waste my time = bad...

so far = bad.... you need to make it = good.


This is an "Expansion" (a release of new content with new more better stuff) and is not a patch "update" (fixing and changing stuff because it doesnt work the way you want)..

Random new stuff looks good, named new stuff... not so much....
I should be excited about new quests and new named items ..
I am more excited by the random stuff and from what I have seen so far could care less about new content...
this is not a good start...

Well said, I bet this falls on deaf ears anyway.

CoasterHops
07-15-2013, 03:42 PM
I'm on the fence about it.

On one hand I'm not a huge fan of having Random generated named items.
On the other hand sometimes that lottery chance is always a bit of a temptation.
Does anyone remember running Mindsunder over and over on Elite for that minute chance of pulling a Vorpal Dream Edge?
Maybe I could have done better things with my time but it was still fun in its own sort of way....

I would like to see the items have a Significant Base to work from eg.
Item abilities as follows:
A. A very desirable effect for at Level, Locked
B. A slightly Less desirable effect at Level, Locked
C. A desirable effect = to B, Random (from a small set of choices)

We can sit there and say we don't want this, but it's already in game, (Motu Rings...) and they are decent....... some are very decent!

At the end of the day I would prefer some Randomness to encourage me to hunt that Holy Grail of the Loot I want than to have Loot that is boring and not worth chasing.

For those using the Eveningstar Weapons as an example, there is a reason why these were never that popular to chase, the fact is they were barely better than Lootgen, so this is where the Devs need to look hard at the Lootgen and give us named items that even with the randomness are superior to what we are likely to pick up at level.

Just Imagine if those Eveningstar weapons had a small percentage chance of increased Die Damage or Increased Crit Multiplier or Increased Threat Range, the challenges would be packed with people doing them, this is the sort of thing that if you are going to implement randomness to Named Loot that will encourage people to keep chasing the most desirable versions.

Grailhawk
07-15-2013, 04:02 PM
Random effects on named loot just another bad idea piled on top of a ton of bad ideas.

Wizza
07-15-2013, 04:11 PM
I'm on the fence about it.


ONE random effect on ONE/TWO named item FROM THE WHOLE EXPANSION's loot could be accepted by everyone.

EVERY Named item with AT LEAST ONE OR MORE random effects? There is no way in hell.


Also, MotU randomness and eGH randomness is just stats. Only the Dun'robar rings have stats AND the +10 tactic. ONE ITEM out of the whole expansion.

This is not acceptable, it never was and never will be.

CoasterHops
07-15-2013, 04:30 PM
ONE random effect on ONE/TWO named item FROM THE WHOLE EXPANSION's loot could be accepted by everyone.

EVERY Named item with AT LEAST ONE OR MORE random effects? There is no way in hell.


Also, MotU randomness and eGH randomness is just stats. Only the Dun'robar rings have stats AND the +10 tactic. ONE ITEM out of the whole expansion.

This is not acceptable, it never was and never will be.

I agree that on some of the stuff its not acceptable, like I said I'm on the fence.
The weapons look like junk, but thats not about the randomness of the item but more about the die damage and crit profiles.

We will just wait and see, I guess its all about how many different items you want from the expansion, do I want a few items that are set in stone from each quest? Those few items that don't fit any of my builds?
Or do I want the same number of items but at least there being a chance that the item could fit one of my builds therefore making it worthwhile to chase.

How big is the random set of parameters?
This is the real question that needs answering.
Is it pulled from 100 different effects or is it pulled from 5 or 10 different effects? This is what will make or break the items in my eyes.

If the randomness of the items is pulled from a small set of effects that are useful dependent on build and gear set then I can see it being a positive, locking the items effects and not making them useful to many builds isn't necessarily a positive, allowing some randomness to the items at least will allow for the right set of random effects to be useful to the right build isn't necessarily a negative.

So maybe we should be petitioning the Devs to ensure they keep the size of the random tables relatively small and extremely useful, instead of just a straight out "NO", because I'm fairly sure we are going to be seeing named items with random effects post update....

Dhalgren
07-15-2013, 04:37 PM
As far as I'm concerned the whole point of named items is that they are not random.

This much randomness in named loot means that the items are no longer special and are now essentially random lootgen which happens to have a name.

This just smacks of lazy design. I am not a fan.

Charononus
07-15-2013, 04:38 PM
As far as I'm concerned the whole point of named items is that they are not random.

This much randomness in named loot means that the items are no longer special and are now essentially random lootgen which happens to have a name.

This just smacks of lazy design. I am not a fan.

This

maddmatt70
07-15-2013, 04:49 PM
OP I do not see much difference between item with guaranteed effect that has a 5% drop rate and item that has a guaranteed drop rate with a 5% random effect (one of which I desire) and in fact prefer option 2 to option 1 because even if I do not get the exact random effect I want I may still get one that I at least find decent. I am a little bit more concerned about whether something is bound to character or tradeable. This loot should all be tradeable in my opinion.

To echo a comment I made in another thread - the biggest concern for me with this loot is the lack of it as in how much time is their to farm this. I could come out with a build which uses a dwarven war axe, daggers, charisma necklace, that has trap skills and in certain situation tanks in handwraps or I could make one of the 1000s of builds which use none of that gear. Double the named items Mr. Loot Designer.

Enoach
07-15-2013, 04:50 PM
While I like the flexibility of the "Limited" random effects on items such as the Dragonscale helms, I do agree that generally randomness on a "Named" item is not "popular". Why the randomness of the Helms is not as much of a pain comes down to the fact that they are still limited as well as not bound until equipped, making this easy to trade with someone else.

Raid items are generally bound on Equip and rare so it is hard to give up an item even if it is only 80% useful but then becomes worthless upon getting the item set as you want.

-----------
As a note I don't consider Cormyrian weapons/armor/robes/etc. "Named" items. I actually classify them to be Random Loot Generated. While they are not as useful to those that have "Farmed" other named items or have crafted using the various systems. They can be useful for newer players that are not as well geared.

I personally crafted 4 such weapons from the 24th level to Fill a need on three characters. Of the 4, I kept 3 and returned 1 for the ingredients. Compared to "Named" loot they are not desirable. But they can be better than some random gen loot.

-------------
I'm against "Named Raid" Loot Random effects

I'm ok with "Named Quest" Loot having limited list of Random Effects (Should be limited to only one random effect and a similar short list like the Dragon helms), but I would prefer Augment Slots and Crafting options over Random Effects as this would allow the player the ability to "Customize" the item.

Wizza
07-15-2013, 05:25 PM
OP I do not see much difference between item with guaranteed effect that has a 5% drop rate and item that has a guaranteed drop rate with a 5% random effect (one of which I desire) and in fact prefer option 2 to option 1 because even if I do not get the exact random effect I want I may still get one that I at least find decent. I am a little bit more concerned about whether something is bound to character or tradeable. This loot should all be tradeable in my opinion.


Lol, this made me laugh.

I'll just say this: have you tried to farm a Dun'robar ring? This new system will be like farming Dun'robar rings, just much worse and for every other piece of your equip probably or just half of them.

Also: guaranteed drop rate? You think Developer are going to put a 100% of a named item to drop? Keep dreaming right there. This not only will have the same 5% drop rate that you said you hate, but it will also have a chance of 5% to drop the right combination of effects on it. Good luck farming that.

zwiebelring
07-15-2013, 06:20 PM
To give some credit, I am satisfied with the droprates of GH Tor named items. The droprates of Dun'Robar on the other hand is frustrating ta best. Then again, when new content is run, the overall chance for specific named items may be higher.

Nobody runs schindylblubb any more. I gave up on Dun'Robar and Avithoul.

maddmatt70
07-15-2013, 07:46 PM
Lol, this made me laugh.

I'll just say this: have you tried to farm a Dun'robar ring? This new system will be like farming Dun'robar rings, just much worse and for every other piece of your equip probably or just half of them.

Also: guaranteed drop rate? You think Developer are going to put a 100% of a named item to drop? Keep dreaming right there. This not only will have the same 5% drop rate that you said you hate, but it will also have a chance of 5% to drop the right combination of effects on it. Good luck farming that.

Well that is the question is it not. Just how much different will the drop rates for these items be when compared to the items that do not operate under this system. Lammania never reveals the accurate drop rates and the devs rarely comment on the drop rates. My guess is this gear will have substantially greater drop rates then the typical drop rates on live. That is what the OP should advocate for is far greater drop rates on live. The devs flip a switch and everything is different.

CoasterHops
07-15-2013, 08:55 PM
Lol, this made me laugh.

I'll just say this: have you tried to farm a Dun'robar ring? This new system will be like farming Dun'robar rings, just much worse and for every other piece of your equip probably or just half of them.

Also: guaranteed drop rate? You think Developer are going to put a 100% of a named item to drop? Keep dreaming right there. This not only will have the same 5% drop rate that you said you hate, but it will also have a chance of 5% to drop the right combination of effects on it. Good luck farming that.

I have farmed several Dun'robar Rings.....
I have a question for you have you ever tried farming for all the pieces for an Epic Thornlord?
Farming for Dun'robar Rings is not nearly the grind you suggest it is.......

Like I have mentioned, I would rather see items that have decent Base Effects, that are desirable, and decent random effects that dependent on the effect make the item of value to different classes/builds, than the item effects being locked and being useful to a very narrow group of classes/builds.

Wizza
07-16-2013, 03:10 AM
I have farmed several Dun'robar Rings.....
I have a question for you have you ever tried farming for all the pieces for an Epic Thornlord?
Farming for Dun'robar Rings is not nearly the grind you suggest it is.......

Like I have mentioned, I would rather see items that have decent Base Effects, that are desirable, and decent random effects that dependent on the effect make the item of value to different classes/builds, than the item effects being locked and being useful to a very narrow group of classes/builds.

Yeah for comparing apples to oranges. So, have you tried to farm an eRoSS?

You can still farm Random gen loot if you like random effects.


Well that is the question is it not. Just how much different will the drop rates for these items be when compared to the items that do not operate under this system. Lammania never reveals the accurate drop rates and the devs rarely comment on the drop rates. My guess is this gear will have substantially greater drop rates then the typical drop rates on live. That is what the OP should advocate for is far greater drop rates on live. The devs flip a switch and everything is different.

It does not matter. Even if the drop rate was 20%, you would still grind the hell out of it to find the super uber combination with random effects. But it's not happening anyway.

Someone said earlier in the thread that they want repeatibility. With higher drop rates, people would have their gear within a week. Just not happening.

crobi
07-16-2013, 04:35 AM
Assuming correct balancing of drop rates, which might take an update or two: Not a huge difference in my opinion.


Live: Very low chance of getting a very powerful (named) item, very high chance of not getting anything at all
Beta: Very low chance of getting a very powerful (named+desirable effect) item, decent chance of getting a decent item (named+useless effect), low chance of not getting anything at all


You will just be collecting and swapping gear more often. It will probably take the same amount of grinding to get a very good setup and probably more grinding to get a perfect setup. Which gives every power gamer something to work on. And casual gamers will have a better sense of progression.

By the way, this is how named items work in Diablo 3. A game that is centered around making people play through the same content over and over and getting addicted to it.

Wizza
07-16-2013, 05:26 AM
By the way, this is how named items work in Diablo 3. A game that is centered around making people play through the same content over and over and getting addicted to it.

Good. Keep this mechanic to D3 or go back to playing that game if you like lottery.

Named items here have never worked this way and never should in future. This is why we have Random generated loot.

Soulfurnace
07-16-2013, 05:46 AM
It's downright sadistic on the devs part and masochist on the players part with these new draconian XP penalities.
Strange, I'm not turned on by the idea of grinding for the loot... In fact, I'm turned off from the idea all together!

GH helms were okay - they had specific options for the random effect, all of which were useful and made sense with the item. (mostly)
If you actually give me an undead guard Stolen Necklace, you can expect complete and utter nerd rage on the forums - because that's stupid.
Don't do it.

And if I've gotten it wrong, and the "random effect" is specific for each item, and relevant, I'll apologise - hell, I'll even buy some TP's.

Ashlayna
07-16-2013, 09:57 AM
I'm not a big fan of the idea, however, due to items like the GH helms, I'm not going to get too worked up about it until I see how it works. If it works along similar lines, then it's not a bad concept.

Wizza
07-16-2013, 10:05 AM
I'm not a big fan of the idea, however, due to items like the GH helms, I'm not going to get too worked up about it until I see how it works. If it works along similar lines, then it's not a bad concept.

Not if it's applied to EVERY named item of the expansion. A couple of them, sure.

Missing_Minds
07-16-2013, 10:11 AM
The mechanic is stupid. Just curious: do you grind ES challenges to have the uber combination of stats? Please don't answer yes, I know it would be a lie :rolleyes:
If I could get groups to do so, I would in limited fashion, honestly.

Limited being there are certain types of weapons I think could be benifical per my characters play styles. Typically throwers.

Two things I noticed missing from the op.
1. Weapon and armor stats of said named items. How do they compare to others of the same level?
2. How often did they drop?

Ashlayna
07-16-2013, 10:19 AM
Not if it's applied to EVERY named item of the expansion. A couple of them, sure.

Again, I think it depends a lot on how it's applied, and what the random effects are. It could very well be exactly like the GH helms, which wouldn't be bad, even if it meant having to, if allowed, trade them around to get the one you want. Like I said, not a big fan, but until I see how it works exactly, I'm not going to get to worked up over it.

Wizza
07-16-2013, 10:20 AM
If I could get groups to do so, I would in limited fashion, honestly.

Limited being there are certain types of weapons I think could be benifical per my characters play styles. Typically throwers.

Two things I noticed missing from the op.
1. Weapon and armor stats of said named items. How do they compare to others of the same level?
2. How often did they drop?

The screenshots can be seen in the threads of the "Items" section.

I have no intention to run EE quests solo 100 times just to find out their drop rate. I'm even more discouraged knowing that they will have random effects on them.

Wizza
07-16-2013, 10:23 AM
Again, I think it depends a lot on how it's applied, and what the random effects are. It could very well be exactly like the GH helms, which wouldn't be bad, even if it meant having to, if allowed, trade them around to get the one you want. Like I said, not a big fan, but until I see how it works exactly, I'm not going to get to worked up over it.

Let's pretend for a second that they are like eGH helms. You would need to farm 4+ of those items with the right combination of effects on them. It's just too tedious and too "lottery-style".

Now, if I had to farm 3 properly NAMED ITEMS and 1 of these Random efects - Named items, I could get along with that.

CoasterHops
07-16-2013, 03:41 PM
Yeah for comparing apples to oranges. So, have you tried to farm an eRoSS?

You can still farm Random gen loot if you like random effects.

Of course I have tried farming an ERoSS, in fact I have seen the shard drop twice.
I wouldn't call it comparing apples to oranges, I would call it giving an example of real grind.
With these ready made epic items now the grind to acquire them is not nearly comparable to pre MotU grind to build Epic items.
A little grind in an MMO is not a bad thing.

And I will reiterate the more "versions" of the items that are available the more classes/builds that can make use of the "right combinations'.

Imagine if Blue Helms only came in Charisma Versions....

Lets look at the Stolen Necklace for example:

EE: Cha 10 + Random Effect + Yellow slot.

Now lets set that item in stone as: Cha 10 + Natural Armor 9 + Yellow Slot. I believe this is a realistic combo. Now this is decent for a paladin or a couple of other builds but is it something you want on your Bard or your Sorceror?
Or would you prefer to pull one with Cha 10 + Wizadry + slot or Cha 10 + Spell Pen + slot or Cha 10 + Evo Focus + slot or Cha 10 + Resistance 8 ( or whatever the level is) + slot?
The you can flip it around and see if the Cha 10 + spell pen or evo focus is useful for a paladin bard or a UMD class that could have made use of the natural armor or the resistance?

So instead of random effects you would prefer what exactly??? More items? So we get one Cha 10 + effect + slot that is only useful for a small group of people?
The we get another item that is only useful to another set of people, but it doesn't have that base Cha 10 that could be so useful to so many builds?

I really think that once we see all of the items, sure they may have random effects but we will see that they offer alot more gear choices than having a set of items that are set in stone, narrowing the possible focus of those items.

Wizza
07-16-2013, 05:24 PM
So instead of random effects you would prefer what exactly??? More items? So we get one Cha 10 + effect + slot that is only useful for a small group of people?
The we get another item that is only useful to another set of people, but it doesn't have that base Cha 10 that could be so useful to so many builds?


Because this didn't work out well in the past 7 years, right?

Oh wait, it did. Noone EVER complained. Noone EVER asked for this. Noone EVER wanted this.

Go back in time, to MotU beta. We had Raid items with Random effects on them and what happened? Rage, rage and more rage. We've had so many people raging out that it led them to change the items and make them PROPER NAMED ITEMS.

There are proofs all over the forum and the game that players NEVER LIKED RANDOM EFFECTS ON NAMED ITEMS.

Once again, Random effects IS for RANDOM GENERATED LOOT. HENCE THEIR NAME.

CoasterHops
07-16-2013, 06:09 PM
Because this didn't work out well in the past 7 years, right?

Oh wait, it did. Noone EVER complained. Noone EVER asked for this. Noone EVER wanted this.

Go back in time, to MotU beta. We had Raid items with Random effects on them and what happened? Rage, rage and more rage. We've had so many people raging out that it led them to change the items and make them PROPER NAMED ITEMS.

There are proofs all over the forum and the game that players NEVER LIKED RANDOM EFFECTS ON NAMED ITEMS.

Once again, Random effects IS for RANDOM GENERATED LOOT. HENCE THEIR NAME.

Like I said earlier in the thread, random effects on named loot is coming wether you like it or not.
I'm not against this mechanic as long as the number of effects is kept to a small set of effects that are useful. (Effects being from a list of 5 - 10 different effects)
Is this truly Random? I don't believe so. You can keep plugging it as random if you like....

Sure the items need work, eg. Slots on alot of the named items, Buffing the base damage/crit profiles of the weapons, a full rework of the armors etc. if they can fix these issues and give us some randomness to some of the effects but from a small pool of useful effects then I will be happy.

redspecter23
07-16-2013, 06:44 PM
Of course I have tried farming an ERoSS, in fact I have seen the shard drop twice.
I wouldn't call it comparing apples to oranges, I would call it giving an example of real grind.
With these ready made epic items now the grind to acquire them is not nearly comparable to pre MotU grind to build Epic items.
A little grind in an MMO is not a bad thing.

And I will reiterate the more "versions" of the items that are available the more classes/builds that can make use of the "right combinations'.

Imagine if Blue Helms only came in Charisma Versions....

Lets look at the Stolen Necklace for example:

EE: Cha 10 + Random Effect + Yellow slot.

Now lets set that item in stone as: Cha 10 + Natural Armor 9 + Yellow Slot. I believe this is a realistic combo. Now this is decent for a paladin or a couple of other builds but is it something you want on your Bard or your Sorceror?
Or would you prefer to pull one with Cha 10 + Wizadry + slot or Cha 10 + Spell Pen + slot or Cha 10 + Evo Focus + slot or Cha 10 + Resistance 8 ( or whatever the level is) + slot?
The you can flip it around and see if the Cha 10 + spell pen or evo focus is useful for a paladin bard or a UMD class that could have made use of the natural armor or the resistance?

So instead of random effects you would prefer what exactly??? More items? So we get one Cha 10 + effect + slot that is only useful for a small group of people?
The we get another item that is only useful to another set of people, but it doesn't have that base Cha 10 that could be so useful to so many builds?

I really think that once we see all of the items, sure they may have random effects but we will see that they offer alot more gear choices than having a set of items that are set in stone, narrowing the possible focus of those items.

I get what you're saying but the same thing could have been accomplished in a much more player friendly fashion. What if the same item looked like this:

Charisma 10 + Yellow Slot + Gold Slot

The Gold Slot holds a new set of named augments that are the exact same as the random effects so you could get a Gold Augment of Natural Armor 9 that drops perhaps in the explorer zone or even in the same chest as the item itself. You get the same set of effects, but the randomness is removed from the item and control is given to the players. You can freely trade these new augments as I'd make them unbound and the items remain BtCoE. If your gearset needs to be swapped at a later date, you may only need to upgrade one or both augments to make it work and if the item itself becomes outdated, you can toolbox out the gold augment to use at a later time on something else. The key element here is options over randomness. I feel players would really have preferred it if it looked like this instead.

CoasterHops
07-16-2013, 07:46 PM
I get what you're saying but the same thing could have been accomplished in a much more player friendly fashion. What if the same item looked like this:

Charisma 10 + Yellow Slot + Gold Slot

The Gold Slot holds a new set of named augments that are the exact same as the random effects so you could get a Gold Augment of Natural Armor 9 that drops perhaps in the explorer zone or even in the same chest as the item itself. You get the same set of effects, but the randomness is removed from the item and control is given to the players. You can freely trade these new augments as I'd make them unbound and the items remain BtCoE. If your gearset needs to be swapped at a later date, you may only need to upgrade one or both augments to make it work and if the item itself becomes outdated, you can toolbox out the gold augment to use at a later time on something else. The key element here is options over randomness. I feel players would really have preferred it if it looked like this instead.

I do like the idea of this, in respect to it would the Orange Slot Augments drop from the new expansion only?
I would be happy if that was the case, as it would allow for more replay of the content...
Something that means we have more options for gearing is preferable to me than having locked in items that become items that fit a certain niche build.
I think that what you have suggested is actually a great idea, I wonder if they could implement something like that?
There could also be ultra rare gold augments only lootable on EE difficulties.

Jeremiah179
07-16-2013, 08:01 PM
I like Gold Augment for these new random effects.

It would be cool if you could only get the augments in that final chest or by removing them out of an existing item...

It would be flexible, sell jeweler kits, create trade on the AS exchange I imagine...

Seems like a win-win solution.

CoasterHops
07-16-2013, 08:51 PM
I like Gold Augment for these new random effects.

It would be cool if you could only get the augments in that final chest or by removing them out of an existing item...

It would be flexible, sell jeweler kits, create trade on the AS exchange I imagine...

Seems like a win-win solution.

Yeah so the items could come pre-slotted with a gold augment, or you could acquire additional augments from other expansion end chests. (I think the gold augments should be expansion wide, with rarer versions being dropped on higher difficulties)
That works for me.

Wizza
07-17-2013, 02:47 AM
Like I said earlier in the thread, random effects on named loot is coming wether you like it or not.
I'm not against this mechanic as long as the number of effects is kept to a small set of effects that are useful. (Effects being from a list of 5 - 10 different effects)
Is this truly Random? I don't believe so. You can keep plugging it as random if you like....

Sure the items need work, eg. Slots on alot of the named items, Buffing the base damage/crit profiles of the weapons, a full rework of the armors etc. if they can fix these issues and give us some randomness to some of the effects but from a small pool of useful effects then I will be happy.

Really? And who are you to say that? Last time they put Random effects on named items (MotU raid, again) they changed them before live.

So yeah again, farm random gen loot if you like Random effects.

Gwyxxx
07-17-2013, 03:14 AM
Gold Augments?

It could be quite good if you can put in this slot Yellow, Colorless, and Red Augments
A series of augments that can be put only on special named slot has his disvantages.
A series of slots that can have only NAMED augments is worst.

oradafu
07-17-2013, 04:52 AM
I get what you're saying but the same thing could have been accomplished in a much more player friendly fashion. What if the same item looked like this:

Charisma 10 + Yellow Slot + Gold Slot

The Gold Slot holds a new set of named augments that are the exact same as the random effects so you could get a Gold Augment of Natural Armor 9 that drops perhaps in the explorer zone or even in the same chest as the item itself. You get the same set of effects, but the randomness is removed from the item and control is given to the players. You can freely trade these new augments as I'd make them unbound and the items remain BtCoE. If your gearset needs to be swapped at a later date, you may only need to upgrade one or both augments to make it work and if the item itself becomes outdated, you can toolbox out the gold augment to use at a later time on something else. The key element here is options over randomness. I feel players would really have preferred it if it looked like this instead.

To tell the truth, I was thinking making the items the other way around. First, I'd make each item have two versions: a melee based version and a caster based version. The items then would look like this:

Empty Clear Slot + Static effect + Limited Random effect + Yellow Slot

The Static effect and random effects would always compliment each other. So on the Melee version, the static effect and random effect would be effects that help melees, whether to boost damage or mitigate damage; on the Caster version, the effects would boost caster power, damage or mitigate damage.

The Yellow slot would be there because the Yellow Slot is already on the item, so there's no reason to remove it.

So why the Empty Clear Slot? Well, this is an Expansion and it should contain something special in it...and this Expansion is sorely lacking something special it. Why not have something really special in the Stormhorns portion of the pack as an reward? On Epic Normal, there's a chance that a +8 Stat Augment can drop; on Epic Hard, there's a chance that a +9 Stat Augment can drop; on Epic Elite, there's a chance that a +10 Stat Augment can drop. This would make the expansion worth buying for players, especially if the expansion was the only place to get these augments.

It also would make the items above customizable for the player to a degree. No longer will the player have to find both the Stat that they want and the random effect to work with his or her character. No more of this BS about I like the effects on this caster item, but the +10 Int doesn't work with my Sorc, FvS or Cleric. Also, it would allow melee items to have Stats that perhaps not all melees want. A melee item with a +10 Cha because the character is a paladin. A melee item with a +10 Con because the character is a tank. Etc...

This would give players more freedom and ways to build their character the way they want. Especially since it looks like the power of the toons in the upper Epic levels need to rely more on items and less on feats, class, prestiges to boost their abilities or mitigate damage.

Wizza
07-17-2013, 05:01 AM
To tell the truth, I was thinking making the items the other way around. First, I'd make each item have two versions: a melee based version and a caster based version. The items then would look like this:

Empty Clear Slot + Static effect + Limited Random effect + Yellow Slot


This is what's wrong with this suggestion: we need only 1 of this item. Just on different kind of weapons/Item. One dagger, one DAxe, one Scepter, one neck. We don't need every single item to work this way with Random effects and everyone is happy.

You guys have your "named random item" and the rest of us will enjoy the other 10 proper Named Items.

CoasterHops
07-17-2013, 05:15 AM
This is what's wrong with this suggestion: we need only 1 of this item. Just on different kind of weapons/Item. One dagger, one DAxe, one Scepter, one neck. We don't need every single item to work this way with Random effects and everyone is happy.

You guys have your "named random item" and the rest of us will enjoy the other 10 proper Named Items.

You aren't going to enjoy the other "10 proper Named Items" if the don't fit your class/build/gear set....

Wizza
07-17-2013, 05:33 AM
You aren't going to enjoy the other "10 proper Named Items" if the don't fit your class/build/gear set....

No, but 1/2 or even 3 out 10 yes. It's worked for 7 years. It can work for another 10 years. Why all of a sudden it shouldn't? :rolleyes:

zwiebelring
07-17-2013, 08:07 AM
Lol, and after 17 years you could say the same... that is not an argument. And regarding the *7 years* it is not all over sudden.

DDO has to evolve. It is a tough business. MMOs are thrown on the market half done to earn money as early as possible in order to maybe last 3 years. 3 years of earning money, then either it is WoW status or the next seller is ready for launch.

Thinking about it, where is the difference between random effects on named items or designing named items with one of each random effect? Actually nothing, but again, mathmatics may show a difference, I feel like there is no difference (bad, I know). The grind for the best combination according to each character seems the same. So much for giving a little credit to the dev.s.

But in general, the view of too much randomness in endgame has changed. Did they forget that Sands of Menechtarum got too many items? And out of them 3 became no-brainers, else garbage?

The random effects on Eveningstar chain loot combined with very very low droprates (subject to personal impression, not confirmed but somehow the droprate of those rings/Planar Foci seemed to be lowered after one patch) are not something I like. I gave up hunting the Focus I needed and bought it from the ah. Dev.s, you won there.

Instead, Gianthold Tor should be the very example of how to design reasonable droprate combined with balanced challenge of the overall quest subjectives.

So, if the droprates of those new items are as low as House X seals/Planar Foci, then narrow down the possible combination and number of random effects or simply don't do them.

Another reason, why I don't like ranom effected named loot in DDO: in Diablo you had those item categories. With lvl. 25 you already implemented *yellow* gear. New pre- und suffixes with powerful combinations on general items, which then became viable or even better than raidloot. Raidloot could be seen as golden items. Powerful static effects.

I want raidloot to stay golden instead of becoming yellow and a slot-machine thingy.

decease
07-17-2013, 08:27 AM
i doubt anyone would love it.. they should narrow down only to those useful ones..

Noctus
07-17-2013, 08:28 AM
You know what also had randon named items?

Reavers Refuge's Dragontouched Armors.

Guess what was a huge mess when it was cap, so much that thex removed the random component in the end to find at least some few who would run it.

Kaytis
07-17-2013, 11:14 AM
You know what also had randon named items?

Reavers Refuge's Dragontouched Armors.

Guess what was a huge mess when it was cap, so much that thex removed the random component in the end to find at least some few who would run it.

Dragontouch armor was one of the worst systems in the game. You couldn't even see what the rune you were applying did. At least they changed it so you could tell if what you were applying was something you actually wanted. But they made the change too late. By the time they did it, there were good alternative armors available. And since the runes are BTC the system is still pretty worthless.

Anyway... I love the slot idea for the named items. Let the player choose the extra ability. Too bad good ideas go to the forums to die.

Certon
07-17-2013, 11:34 AM
It's a strange complaint that random effects make it harder to build an optimal equipment configuration. All you need to do is plan your equipment based upon the item without taking into consideration at all the random effect.

Wizza
07-17-2013, 01:32 PM
It's a strange complaint that random effects make it harder to build an optimal equipment configuration. All you need to do is plan your equipment based upon the item without taking into consideration at all the random effect.

Please read this reply again? Now delete it. The most non-sense reply I've ever seen.

Planning a build on Random loot/effects. Sure.

Gwyxxx
07-17-2013, 01:46 PM
It's a strange complaint that random effects make it harder to build an optimal equipment configuration. All you need to do is plan your equipment based upon the item without taking into consideration at all the random effect.

If the random effect is really secondary (aka Hide of the Goristro if you don't use Tactical Feats) you can do it.
If the random effect is very important, you can't do it.

Certon
07-18-2013, 02:55 PM
If the random effect is really secondary (aka Hide of the Goristro if you don't use Tactical Feats) you can do it.
If the random effect is very important, you can't do it.

Important?

Like a random effect to give +6 strength even though you have +8 strength already? It wouldn't be a big deal. I see the problem being that people would see the list of different effects and want the optimal one, creating a 'sour grapes' situation. Removing the random effect completely is more negative, and adding a static effect is negative to most but the ones the static effect favors. It's pandering to a minority.

Certon
07-18-2013, 02:57 PM
Please read this reply again? Now delete it. The most non-sense reply I've ever seen.

Planning a build on Random loot/effects. Sure.

Would it be better if the random effect was completely taken away? If so, your concept is more nonsensical than mine.

Wizza
07-18-2013, 03:14 PM
Would it be better if the random effect was completely taken away? If so, your concept is more nonsensical than mine.

A named item with one effect? We've seen very few of them so no. It should have something else with it. Simply as that.

Wizza
07-19-2013, 11:28 AM
And looks like Storm Horn will have **** random effects on named loot too. Check them out in the Items section.

Also, there is a Rapier 19-20/x2 (https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/MastersRiposte.jpg). Aren't Rapiers supposed to be 18-20/x2? Are they being nerfed or is this just a Named loot made by a monkey?

Right now, I'm not feeling the hype of MotU loot. I haven't seen ONE single NAMED LOOT that I will actually grind to have it. Not a single item to that made me go "Wow, this is awesome. Gonna get it for sure". Actually, what I'm feeling is A LOT of disappointment about this loot.

Wizza
07-19-2013, 12:51 PM
Double checked the descriptions posted by Squeak. Every single item has one random effects and every single one of them sucks. Not just because of the Random effect (but mostly) but even cause the static one is junk.

The only non-random Named item so far is a pair of gloves:

Gloves:

EE:

Epic Elite
Intelligence +11
Illusion Focus V
Empty Yellow Augment Slot


With the amazing Illusion Focus V.

TPICKRELL
07-19-2013, 12:55 PM
Double checked the descriptions posted by Squeak. Every single item has one random effects and every single one of them sucks. Not just because of the Random effect (but mostly) but even cause the static one is junk.

The only non-random Named item so far is a pair of gloves:

Gloves:

EE:

Epic Elite
Intelligence +11
Illusion Focus V
Empty Yellow Augment Slot


With the amazing Illusion Focus V.And that item would be greatly enhanced if the illusion focus V was instead a random focus V...

Deadlock
07-19-2013, 12:58 PM
Also, there is a Rapier 19-20/x2 (https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/MastersRiposte.jpg). Aren't Rapiers supposed to be 18-20/x2?

Good spot.

I would definitely be bug reporting any weapon with a weaker critical profile than standard.

Wizza
07-19-2013, 01:07 PM
Good spot.

I would definitely be bug reporting any weapon with a weaker critical profile than standard.

I will do.

Should I bug report any Named item with Random effects? They are all weaker than standard named items too.

/sarcasm..or not.

UurlockYgmeov
07-19-2013, 01:14 PM
I can see one point of random (ok semi random - random from level appropriate list) - means you might e able to fit in a piece of gear without it causing a domino effect....

Wizza
07-19-2013, 02:14 PM
I can see one point of random (ok semi random - random from level appropriate list) - means you might e able to fit in a piece of gear without it causing a domino effect....

There is another bigged point: people won't bother grinding them.

Wizza
07-19-2013, 02:16 PM
Good spot.

I would definitely be bug reporting any weapon with a weaker critical profile than standard.

Squeak just said that that Rapier is actually a longsword. Even more useless.

Systern
07-19-2013, 02:22 PM
And looks like Storm Horn will have **** random effects on named loot too. Check them out in the Items section.

Also, there is a Rapier 19-20/x2 (https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/MastersRiposte.jpg). Aren't Rapiers supposed to be 18-20/x2? Are they being nerfed or is this just a Named loot made by a monkey?

Right now, I'm not feeling the hype of MotU loot. I haven't seen ONE single NAMED LOOT that I will actually grind to have it. Not a single item to that made me go "Wow, this is awesome. Gonna get it for sure". Actually, what I'm feeling is A LOT of disappointment about this loot.


Good spot.

I would definitely be bug reporting any weapon with a weaker critical profile than standard.


Squeak just said that that Rapier is actually a longsword. Even more useless.


Also note that it does Slashing damage, not pierce.

So it's a longsword that uses rapier proficiency and IC:Piercing to break zombie DR and such.

CoasterHops
07-19-2013, 02:25 PM
And that item would be greatly enhanced if the illusion focus V was instead a random focus V...

I wouldn't bother trying to tell him this....

Wizza
07-19-2013, 02:34 PM
Also note that it does Slashing damage, not pierce.

So it's a longsword that uses rapier proficiency and IC:Piercing to break zombie DR and such.

Still useless thou. Triple.-Pos GS outclasses it by a lot.

Deadlock
07-19-2013, 03:41 PM
I will do.

Should I bug report any Named item with Random effects? They are all weaker than standard named items too.

/sarcasm..or not.

:) Bug report anything we disagree with :) that's what we were asked to do :)

Wizza
07-20-2013, 03:31 AM
:) Bug report anything we disagree with :) that's what we were asked to do :)

They should have learnt their lesson with MotU. Instead, we have this all over again. And there is not a single Developer to have the guts to chime in here and admit the huge mistake they are doing.

Wizza
07-22-2013, 03:18 AM
Any Developer willing to talk with us?

I can't understand the point of putting Lamannia online at the end of the week when half of the days they are offline.

lyrecono
07-23-2013, 01:40 AM
i noticed this too, all i have seen during the Beta were QA people (awesome as they were XD)

If we can have a chat with actual developers we might be able to show them the problems of the expansion.
This way we atleast get some propper feedback.


With the current system all our "suggestions" go onto a big pile and we have no idea how these are prioritised. Btw, said bug report system does't always work properly either...

samthedagger
07-23-2013, 02:07 AM
I really dislike the idea of randomly generated effects on named items unless they are limited in scope. A perfect example of a good item with randomly generated effects is the flawless dragon helm from Epic Gianthold Tor. For example, the blue armor set is clearly geared towards casters, so there are six possible permutations, all of which involve Int, Wis, or Cha (i.e. caster stats). This is good design. However to open Pandora's Box to practically any random effect makes EE loot essentially not worth farming for. Narrow the focus of these items a little with a small list of limited random effects based on the type of characters they will appear to and the items will be fine.

Wizza
07-23-2013, 04:17 AM
I really dislike the idea of randomly generated effects on named items unless they are limited in scope. A perfect example of a good item with randomly generated effects is the flawless dragon helm from Epic Gianthold Tor. For example, the blue armor set is clearly geared towards casters, so there are six possible permutations, all of which involve Int, Wis, or Cha (i.e. caster stats). This is good design. However to open Pandora's Box to practically any random effect makes EE loot essentially not worth farming for. Narrow the focus of these items a little with a small list of limited random effects based on the type of characters they will appear to and the items will be fine.

Yes but again: there should be only 3-4 items like this in an update, like eGH with Helms and Field optics.

The gloves of the Master illusionist could be a perfect example where a system like Tor helms would be appreciated.

Instead, we get all that **** on every item of this expansion.

Wizza
07-25-2013, 10:32 AM
I almost forgot: no new weapon with Assassinate DC. If we want to assassinate something, we are stuck with EMG, an uuuber weapon :rolleyes:

oradafu
07-25-2013, 01:05 PM
I can see one point of random (ok semi random - random from level appropriate list) - means you might e able to fit in a piece of gear without it causing a domino effect....

This is a bit off topic since it has less to do with the random effects and more with the named gear, but it does address the domino effect mentioned above.

You know way back when Genasi was asking for input for upgrading the weak Epic gear in House P, Sands and Red Fends, I made the suggestion to remove all +6 Stat and replacing them with Clear Slots so players could add the +6 Stat that they want to the item since many times players were ending up with three or four of the same Stat in their gear.

Fast forward today with all the changes to Slots and such, I think this idea is even more valid. The past couple of updates, we've had items with +7 (which was pretty rare but not unusual before MOTU) and +8 Stats. This update negates pretty much all gear with stat prior to this release since up to +11 Stats are available now. This is not unlike the situation where MOTU's randomly generated items wiping out arguably 90% of all old Epic gear that was harder to get.

I really hope the Devs go back and replace all epic gear with Stats on them and replace the Stats on these items with Clear Slots and the appropriate Stat. This way players can upgrade the items if they want or farm for the new gear. It would also prevent or slow down the obsoleting of all previous gear.

Again, sorry for going a bit off topic, although both the inflating off Stats that invalidates all previous gear with static Stats and just making everything else randomly generated is just poor or lazy loot design.

patang01
07-25-2013, 01:53 PM
For the ones who missed it from the picturs showed by Squeak, read at the end of his post:

Prisoner's manacles:

Epic Elite
Incite +30%
Reinforced Fists
Random Effect
Empty Green Augment Slot
Empty Colorless Augment Slot


Fell shiv:

Epic Elite
+4 Enhancement Bonus
Greater Vorpal
Random Effect
Empty Red Augment Slot



Stolen necklace:

Epic Elite
Charisma +10
Random Effect
Empty Yellow Augment Slot


Prison break:

Epic Elite
+7 Enhancement Bonus
Random Effect
Random Effect
Empty Red Augment Slot



Skullduggery kit:

Epic Elite
Intelligence Skills – Exceptional Bonus +6
Dexterity Skills – Exceptional Bonus +6
Random Effect
Empty Green Augment Slot


I see EVERY PIECE OF NAMED LOOT have 1 or EVEN TWO "Random effect" on it.

Developers, this is a plea from your players, because I'm sure I'm not the only one:

WE DO NOT WANT RANDOM EFFECTS ON NAMED LOOT. WE DO NOT LIKE TO PLAY THE LOTTERY, SPECIALLY ON EPIC ELITE QUESTS.

You know why noone bothers with ES Challenges? BECAUSE THE LOOT RANDOMIZED SUCKS. We have made this very clear when Eveningstar challenges came up. Now, you have the guts to put randomized effects on EE NAMED LOOT.

There is still time. Whoever is in charge of these items (Feather_of_Sun, I've no doubt he is in charge of items) needs to step up and say "Sorry, I will try to come up with something better and without random effects" because apparently he didn't get the memo why noone ever bothers with ES challenges.

Just to make it clear, maybe it is not so clear from this post:

PLAYERS DO NOT WANT RANDOM EFFECTS ON NAMED LOOT.

The problems isn't the random effect - the problem is that many of the random effects are worthless.

Gianthold offer loot with random effects. MOTU as well - but it's in stats - so there's always someone that could imagine trading you for it or buying it off the auction house.

The problem with these items and that of Cormyrian Challenge stuff is that too much is random. You're going to find a hard time selling a sub-par longsword with axiomatic on it. Plus these items have an anemic amount of augments on them.

The only way they can make the loot better is if the random part is from a very select few good random features. Like the longsword - remove parry and make that portion random from greater disruption, greater vorpal or greater banishment. 3 good choices.

Then make the second random 3d6 of any element including good or 2d6 Force. Again - good amount of damage coupled with a great feature.

Then add a red augment for EN, orange and red for EH and orange and purple augment for EE. (plus 7/7/8 enhancement)

If the Devs want to make special loot - something with flavor then for Pete sakes add flavor and a niche use for it.

patang01
07-25-2013, 02:04 PM
I get what you're saying but the same thing could have been accomplished in a much more player friendly fashion. What if the same item looked like this:

Charisma 10 + Yellow Slot + Gold Slot

The Gold Slot holds a new set of named augments that are the exact same as the random effects so you could get a Gold Augment of Natural Armor 9 that drops perhaps in the explorer zone or even in the same chest as the item itself. You get the same set of effects, but the randomness is removed from the item and control is given to the players. You can freely trade these new augments as I'd make them unbound and the items remain BtCoE. If your gearset needs to be swapped at a later date, you may only need to upgrade one or both augments to make it work and if the item itself becomes outdated, you can toolbox out the gold augment to use at a later time on something else. The key element here is options over randomness. I feel players would really have preferred it if it looked like this instead.

That would be a great ID. I rather have a system where you know what you get and you work towards a goal to upgrade it to what you like then to farm the same quest over and over for the perfect combination of features. Getting a little something towards a future goal is a much better incentive then getting something that is worthless to a majority of your toons.

oradafu
07-25-2013, 02:45 PM
The problems isn't the random effect - the problem is that many of the random effects are worthless.

Gianthold offer loot with random effects. MOTU as well - but it's in stats - so there's always someone that could imagine trading you for it or buying it off the auction house.

The problem with these items and that of Cormyrian Challenge stuff is that too much is random. You're going to find a hard time selling a sub-par longsword with axiomatic on it. Plus these items have an anemic amount of augments on them.

The only way they can make the loot better is if the random part is from a very select few good random features. Like the longsword - remove parry and make that portion random from greater disruption, greater vorpal or greater banishment. 3 good choices.

Then make the second random 3d6 of any element including good or 2d6 Force. Again - good amount of damage coupled with a great feature.

Then add a red augment for EN, orange and red for EH and orange and purple augment for EE. (plus 7/7/8 enhancement)

If the Devs want to make special loot - something with flavor then for Pete sakes add flavor and a niche use for it.

I agree that limiting some of the random choices would help some.

As you said, the Eveningstar Challenge weapons are mostly junk (and let's not even get into words that describe the Eveningstar Challenge armors!). I said that those weapons could have been saved if an additional random tier was added that would consist of Epic Banes for Epic versions and a Greater Bane for the level 16 version. This would turn many trash Eveningstar weapons into a viable weapon more often than not. Not only that, since Eveningstar weapons have a chance of getting Silver/Cold Iron/Adamanine, some people might farm them to get an Epic boss beater. As I stated in a different thread, the Devs have a chance to include this if/when they decide to update the Challenges because of the level cap increase.

Wizza
07-26-2013, 04:11 AM
The problems isn't the random effect - the problem is that many of the random effects are worthless.

Gianthold offer loot with random effects. MOTU as well - but it's in stats - so there's always someone that could imagine trading you for it or buying it off the auction house.

The problem with these items and that of Cormyrian Challenge stuff is that too much is random. You're going to find a hard time selling a sub-par longsword with axiomatic on it. Plus these items have an anemic amount of augments on them.


The problems are exactly the random effects. GH has a couple of items with random effect and those random effects are just different stats.

Also, GH helms are good enough without a stat on it. The random stat is just the icing on the cake. The loot of Shadowfell is just trash, in every single way. The static effects are junk, the random effects are even more junk and the most annoying thing is that EVERY SINGLE NAMED ITEM is built like this. Not a couple like in GH, EVERY ITEM.

And we still haven't heard anything from a Developer.

rest
07-26-2013, 11:12 AM
Bump.

I know that a certain treasure designer is QUITE enamored with the idea of utterly random properties on loot but grinding this stuff out is bad enough already. I can't imagine how much worse it will be when there is a chance you'll get some epic elite weapon with plant bane on it.

DunRobar rings are a good example of an acceptable amount of randomness, to me. Two properties with 4 permutations each is not completely unreasonable. eGH treasure with one property that changes within a set and defined list of what they are (stats on the Intricate Field Optics, stats on the dragon helms, the stat AUGMENT that comes in a Jeweled Cloak et al.) is perfectly acceptable. But from what I've seen, there is no rhyme or reason to what random properties are being put on the named items out of the new expansion quests.

I don't like it, and I think it it a cop out. Not everyone loves random loot. Planning a build requires planning for gear. It sucks to have to settle for "good enough" gear because someone decided that every item in the game should be a **** shoot. You got rid of the seal/shard/scroll mechanic because you could do 1 run for your shard or 1,000 and never be any closer to what you want. Same thing holds true for these random properties. You could pull that named item 1,000 times, and 1,000 times get something that is utterly useless as a result, and be no closer to what you want than when you started. That's bad.

Vellrad
08-11-2013, 04:29 AM
I'm sure all those devs and people loving new random named junk will really love pseudo DPS weapons with awesome enhancements like unholy 4, wizardry 7 or swim +20.

Wizza
08-11-2013, 04:37 AM
Bump.

I know that a certain treasure designer is QUITE enamored with the idea of utterly random properties on loot but grinding this stuff out is bad enough already. I can't imagine how much worse it will be when there is a chance you'll get some epic elite weapon with plant bane on it.

SNIP

Don't worry. This is what everybody will look for:

Melees/Ranged:

Deadly XI
Stat +11
Random DPS weapon that may outclass CitW (or just stick with Clever/SoS/Ivy/Agony/Pinion/Twilight)

Casters:

Focus +5
Stat +11
Spellpower +136
Spellcraft/Heal +20


I'm sure all those devs and people loving new random named junk will really love pseudo DPS weapons with awesome enhancements like unholy 4, wizardry 7 or swim +20.

What makes me laugh is all those people saying "omg we lovezzz randomzzzzz" are now suggesting Melange to change the items. They were sooooo sure that they would get a tons of GH Helms and goggles-like items that now that the truth is in front of their faces, they are regretting it.

It is so damn amusing and yet so damn sad. It's been a month of me and everyone else who agrees with me (the majority of the forum and most of the people I know in game) fighting to have the items changed but it's all been useless. Once again, our feedback has been ignored.

nayozz
08-12-2013, 11:48 AM
/signed for no random named :P

emtp
08-13-2013, 09:16 AM
Once again, our feedback has been ignored.

notice how few devs have posted in lam this time around. I was sure that this xpac would be different then motu but I was mistaken. We are just as ignored and I see fewer people logging on as time goes by. There needs to be thing in the game that players want, not what the devs think is fun. I was told in Motu beta that I need to accept the change and be happy, but I stoped playing every day and cut back on my spending to just a trickle of what it had been. If the game is going to keep ramming unwant carp down our throats the devs are going to need a new job aas there not going to be enough players paying to support them.