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Qezuzu
07-02-2013, 12:19 AM
Welcome to The Advanced Stealth Guide, where you may or may not learn how to avoid pretty much every non-required fight there is.

A few quick notes before beginning:

This guide assumes a few basic things:

You have some level of experience with basic sneaking. You know a bit about the mechanics, such as auto-detect zones, spot checks and listen checks.
You have a high hide and move silently score. For Epic Elites, you'll want over 90 in at least Move Silently (90 is not actually that hard a number to reach). Invisibility makes Hide not as important, however Hide should be equal to your MS anyway. The point is, get it as high as you can each level and you'll be good to go.
You have a useful UMD score.
You are going to be soloing/shortmanning


Sneaking is one thing. Stealth is a different thing. Sneak is a stance you can activate that allows you to move undetected. Stealth is the style of play that involves completing the quest with minimal amounts of fighting or alerting of mobs.

This guide is meant for Rogue characters, but is useful for any class. The major differences between Rogue stealth and other stealth is that Rogues have Assassinate and Noisemakers.
Stealth is not quick! Take your time.
It's better to skip past a mob than to fight it. However, sometimes it's easier to just kill something, and sometimes you're required to.
If you have suggestions/corrections, feel free to give them.
This guide is primarily aimed at high-level characters, however most methods work at lower levels.


Your Build

Anyone with a high Hide/MS score can be stealthy. Stealth is not a build, it's a playstyle. That said, you should probably max out your skill points in H/MS. The 12-point penalty for not having H/MS is something that should be avoided: take a splash in monk, rogue, ranger, etc if you can.

Spot is useful for seeing the location of sneaking mobs, which, if bumped into, can rightly mess you up. If you have spare skill points, level this up.

Bluff is very useful, and is criminally underused, even by parties. It allows you clear out a room one by one, preventing you from getting swarmed and alleviating a lot of damage (or all of it, if you can CC the mob).

You should not take any feats or enhancements that improve your H/MS. As important as those skills are, a measly few points are not worth it in this case.

Rogues are probably the best class for stealth play, depending on what factors you look at. Assassinate is incredibly useful, noisemakers are handy. They can also sneak faster and have bluff as a class skills. I would put Bards second, only because they have H/MS AND bluff as class skills and for their ridiculously powerful Fascinate; almost no matter how tough the going gets, they'll only have to fight one mob at a time. Monks, Rangers and Druids come after, with Druids and Monks probably on top. Druids have some good offensive and defensive spells and are very survivable, and can also compensate for their lack of H/MS as class skills with their spells. Monks have Abundant Step, which is very useful in many areas.

At a glance:




Rogue
Bard
Monk
Ranger
Everyone else


H/MS
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
No, -12*


Bluff
Yes
Yes
No, -12
No, -12
Sorc only


DPS
Very high
Varies
Very high
Moderate
Depends


Faster Sneak
Yes
No
No
Yes

No


Assassinate
Yes**
No
No
No
No


Noisemakers
Yes
No
No
No
Arti only


UMD
Yes
Yes
No, -12
No, -12
Depends


Fascinate
No
Yes
No
No
No


Hide in Plain Sight
No***
No***
No***
Yes
No***



*With some exceptions: Druids have the Pass Without Trace and Spiderskin Spells. Wizard Palemasters have Wraith form (although it can't be used with Shadow Form)
**Requires the Assassin PrE
***Hide in Plain Sight can be obtained with Shadowdancer's Stealthy

Epic Destiny

Shadowdancer is, in my opinion, the single best destiny for stealthy toons, especially Rogues. For a few reasons:

Shadowform gives an immense +20 bonus to H/MS. It also gives a very useful 25% incorporeal miss chance, which is a great boon to your defenses.
"Stealthy," the level one enhancement, is another useful +6 to your H/MS, although this can be easily twisted. It also gives +6 to Assassinate DCs. This also has an unlisted effect of giving your toon Hide in Plain Sight, which lowers your light penalty by two "eyes" (you know what that is, right?)
Sneak Freedom: this clickie is immensely useful, even with its large cooldown.
The capstone, which allows you to sneak attack elementals, undead, etc. is exceptionally useful for rogues, but is not necessarily a bonus to stealth play.
Shadow Manipulation. My god, this ability is immensely powerful for stealth play. More on it later.


If you don't use Shadowdancer... then just use whatever. Because there isn't really a "second best."

Note with Shadowdancer: get your maximum number of shadowcharges prior to entering the quest, if possible.

Twists

Twists are mostly up to personal preference. My only recommendation is Otto's Whistler, which is extremely reliable single-target CC, and Summon Dryad Elder, which gives you a sturdy summon (more on that later).

I personally use Whistler, Improved Combat Mastery, and Brace for Impact.

Getting Good Sneak Scores

23 bas
15 Item
10 DEX mod
20 Shadow Form
6 Stealthy
5 Epic Levels
4 GH
2 Luck
___
85, easy. Add in some more rare stuff and you're good to go. Minus 12 if your H/MS is not a class skill. Plus 8 if you're an Assassin.

Note: it's possible to get scores of over 200:rolleyes:

Essential Tools

Weapons

Improved Deception. Improved Deception. Nothing. But. Improved. Deception.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63arxpwyFyo

Observe. The boss is "locked down" due to the constant deception procs, which make the target vulnerable to sneak attacks as well as turning them around. The boss here is only able to cast two spells, and only because I activated Boosts. Note that I am also using an Improved Deception accessory: get one!

Due to this "locking" effect, Improved Deception items are one of the best choices for soloing melee characters, not just stealth ones.

Otherwise, use either your highest damage dealers. Your weapons will be (should be) almost exclusively for bosses/required kills. If you are a Rogue, also get Epic Midnight's Greetings

Gear

Besides the obvious skill bonuses to H/MS, gear is mostly the same as any other toon. Use what you like.

Clickies/Scrolls

Besides the usual...



Invisibility, in pots, wands or clickies. In case you didn't already have any of these. Not just useful for sneaking, but also for invis pulling, which will be covered in a bit
Enervation scrolls. Useful for Assassins if there's a mob that needs to be killed whose saves are just a tad too high for Assassinate. Also useful against meaty orange names or things like oozes, elementals, etc.
Halt/Command Undead scrolls. Simple, effective CC against undead.
Summon Monster scrolls/Roderic's Wand. Summons have a useful purpose in stealth, to be covered later.
Epic Big Top. Otto's Irresistable Dance clickie. I'm surprised I don't see this used more often.
Epic Wolf Whistle. Although rare, this powerful item summons the undoubtedly most powerful summon in the game.


Abilities

Noisemakers

Noisemakers, which require at least one level in Rogue and Artificer (to take the trapmaking feat, which is an auto-grant for lvl4 Rogues/Arties), make a sound that attracts mobs to investigate. They are handy for moving mobs around, letting you pull levers or sneak by without getting seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6LeHH6DVJE

Noisemakers give you the highest level of control as to where the mobs will end up, and they're the best to use if you need to pull a lever or open a door without being noticed.

Shadow Manipulation

Easily the most powerful tool in your arsenal, this thing is immensely powerful. Requires a decent INT score if you're looking to use it in Epic Elite.

This ability charms a single mob for a minute. It does not require line of sight or for you to even be close to the mob (like the Savant abilities, before they got fixed). It allows you to easily slip past even the largest number of mobs. Be careful about bumping into them, though, or they'll aggro on you after they've killed the charmed mob.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cOBiwU4wt0

It can be tempting to join the fray and drop a few mobs, but ask yourself this: what do you gain by doing that?

...besides a shadow charge, that is. Assassinate a mob if there's one you can safely kill (usually an archer/caster) to get your shadow charge back. If you're not a rogue and don't have Assassinate, then tough luck because I advise against DPSing down a mob while using Shadow Manipulation. Get your charge back on an isolated mob.

SM is also great for clearing out rooms that need to be cleared out.

Summons

Like Shadow Manipulation, except not as good. The spell summons that you can get from scrolls will only last a few seconds against epic mobs, but this can be enough for you to slip by.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S7fMgX8NC4

The best summons are ones that use ranged/magic attacks, as they will displace mobs the greastest. It doesn't really matter what summon you use for it: they'll all die at roughly the same speed.

Except for the Dryad Elder summon, however she requires a lvl4 twist. She can surivive for a couple more seconds against epic elite mobs, and can last for a good period of time without aid against lesser mobs.

And then there's the Tharaak Hound summon, the most powerful summon (and also, by far, the hardest to get). This thing is a juggernaut, and is absolute overkill if you only want to distract the mobs momentarily. If you do actually have this beast, I would save him for required/boss fights.

Invis Pulling

The poor-man's version of noisemakers, this is the quickest way to move mobs around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC7jwAygRnA

This functions similarly to Noisemakers, however it's a bit riskier and backfires when mobs with See Invisibility are present. At any rate, if you don't have rogue levels you'd better learn how to do this.

Projectile Collision

When a projectile, i.e. and arrow or a throwing weapon, hits a surface, it makes a sound that attracts mobs, allowing you to move them around at a range. To do this, turn off auto-target (press G) so that you don't accidentally hit anything, turn on mouselook (press T or press the mouse wheel) and fire away. Don't hit the mob, just hit the surface near them.

Fascinate

This ability, which is exclusive to bards (or HElfs with a bard dillettante, though you won't achieve a very good DC), is the ultimate "roflstomp" button for Stealth. It allows you to disable all enemies around you, allowing you open doors, pull levers and loot chests in total safety. While it does aggro the mobs, by the time they're free to move you'll be long gone (you do lose stealth points for aggroing so many mobs, though. What are stealth points? I dunno lol).

This ability alone is what makes Bards great at stealth. Just about as good as rogues, honestly.

The Basic Method

There are two ways you can approach a given group of mobs:

-Sneak past them
-Fight them (don't do this)

Always, if possible, go for the first option. Most groups of mobs can simply be snuck past without having to move them around, but if not, use one of your abilities to distract them so you can get by.

Option two should only ever be done if absolutely necessary, e.g. boss fights, "kill these mobs to open door," etc. If this is the case, I recommend bluff pulling and/or Shadow Manipulation. For bluff pulling, make sure you have a good "Kill Zone" where you can safely 1v1 a mob without any other mobs noticing you. Assassins are most efficient at killing mobs with bluff pulling.

You can also use ranged weapons to pull mobs individually. Prior to u17, hitting one mob with a ranged weapon would also alert its friends, but not anymore. I personally don't think this is WAI, so I don't do it. What else is not WAI is being able to Assassinate mobs without aggroing surrounding mobs. IF YOU DO THIS YOUR BODY WILL ROT FROM THE INSIDE OUT DUE TO A CURSE SET UPON YOU BY THE STEALTH GODS. Seriously, it is baby mode for stealth and you will lose all your honor points for doing it.

Good Quests for Practicing Your Stealth

Most of these quests can be completed with only the required kills(of which there are few):-Fathom the Depths (Red Fens)
-Claw of Vulkoor (Red Fens)
-Cry for Help (Gianthold)
-Bargain of Blood (Sentinels)
-Trial by Fire (Gianthold) (yup, even with the spiders. Deal with spiders as you would bluff pulled mobs)
-Chains of Flame (Sands)
-Haywire Foundry (VON)
-The Tide Turns (Sentinels)
-House of Death Undone (Eveningstar)
-The Chamber of Raiyum (Sands) (protip: use charmed undead to kill Raiyum and required mobs)
-The Unquiet Graves (Eveningstar)
-The House of Broken Chains (Eveningstar)
-Servants of the Overlord (Web of Chaos)
-Trial by Fury (Demonweb)
-Numerous low-level quests. Suggest some!
--Stealthy Repossession (Harbor)
--Monastery of the Scorpion (Reaver's Refuge)
--Blockade Buster (Attack on Stormreach)
--A New Invasion
--Sins of Attrition

And that's my guide. Feel free to add your own tips. I will add some "putting it all together" videos later of me running quests alone.

BY THE WAY, PARTY STEALTHING IS FUN.

Vargouille
07-02-2013, 01:43 PM
Cool guide!

Teh_Troll
07-02-2013, 01:45 PM
Where's the section on sneak-humping?

Missing_Minds
07-02-2013, 01:53 PM
Two quips.


This guide is meant for Rogue characters, but is useful for any class. The major differences between Rogue stealth and other stealth is that Rogues have Assassinate and Noisemakers.

Rogues can choose to have assassinate. Which if you are going to stealth, it is wise to do so given the tremendous synergy. The way you stated it, it sounded like an auto grant.

Anyone can have noisemakers so long as they have the Trapfinding class ablity (lvl 1 rogue and arti) and the Trapmaking feat. Rogues and Artificers are granted this as a class feat at lvl 4, other wise a character can meet the pre reqs and take it. (Yes I know. It is not optimal to do so, and no I don't know any that bother myself.)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

Actually... as far as the noisemakers go, can't anyone use them? You just have to meet the pre reqs to make them?


The second, Hide in Plain Sight is also a lvl 17 ranger ablity, not just an Epic Destiny ablity.



Numerous low-level quests (suggest some)Stealthy Repossession? :)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Stealthy_Repossession

*guide bookmarked*

Rusty_Can
07-02-2013, 02:59 PM
The 12-point penalty for not having H/MS is something that should be avoided: take a splash in monk, rogue, ranger, etc if you can.


Not necessarily: some classes have other means to buff up their "stealth" and make up for Hide and MS not being class skills.

Druids can cast "Pass without trace" and "Spiderskin" spells, which provide enhancement bonuses to MS and Hide; as a side note, both spells are not self-only but can target allies.

Shroud of the Wraith provides +20 bonus to MS.

Rangers can help less stealthy party-members, casting "Mass Camouflage" (+10 circumstance bonus to Hide skill) and "Pass without trace".

Btw, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UqSHCIJ1jo) is an old video, from when the level cap was still 14 (16?) .... still inspiring thou :)

Qezuzu
07-02-2013, 03:28 PM
Rogues can choose to have assassinate. Which if you are going to stealth, it is wise to do so given the tremendous synergy. The way you stated it, it sounded like an auto grant.

Assassinate is an ability that is exclusive to Rogues is what I was trying to say. I never stated it was an autogrant, just that you need to be a rogue to have it.

At any rate, I still believe that even Acrobat/Mechanic rogues are better than other classes at stealth (except possibly Bards).


Anyone can have noisemakers so long as they have the Trapfinding class ablity (lvl 1 rogue and arti) and the Trapmaking feat. Rogues and Artificers are granted this as a class feat at lvl 4, other wise a character can meet the pre reqs and take it. (Yes I know. It is not optimal to do so, and no I don't know any that bother myself.)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

Actually... as far as the noisemakers go, can't anyone use them? You just have to meet the pre reqs to make them?

Edited that section.

Using Noisemakers does require the trapmaking feat. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Noisemaker)

Bladedge
07-02-2013, 03:34 PM
Quest: Blockade Buster

danotmano1998
07-02-2013, 04:06 PM
Welcome to The Advanced Stealth Guide

Great post! Thanks for sharing, +1!

count_spicoli
07-02-2013, 04:24 PM
ya really nice stuff. Been playing 4 years and never even heard of a noisemaker. Wish I had tho. Great guide and shows why ddo is so cool. Many different ways to get things done.

arkonas
07-02-2013, 04:26 PM
Where's the section on sneak-humping?

well because last time i checked i actually think its something that can get you banned. i know there is something about it from a dev somewhere.

maddmatt70
07-02-2013, 06:12 PM
Grr it is not easy to get a 90 at all. First, of all OP your post is not 90 but an 85. Second, you have the form which only comes in shadow dancer for +20 which means that to sneak you have to be a shadowdancer. Finally, you twist in +6 for stealthy or have stealthy. I am not sure your threshold numbers for sneak on epic elite are correct either? What do you base that on?

Talon_Moonshadow
07-02-2013, 07:12 PM
I find Garisson's and Sunken Sewer to be excellent practice dungeons.

Garrison's has a couple Oozes, which I think is easier just to go ahead and kill. And five required kills in the last room.

It is possible to do Garrison's without agroing any Kobolds. Including killing the end boss, but the Kobolds in the last room also need to die to finish the quest. (So I guess technically, you need to agro the last four Kobolds.. but no others need be agroed if you are real good.)

Bonus points for sneaking past Furor if he spawns.



Try lowering the bridge in Sunken Sewer without getting agro. (also getting across the bridge unseen is difficult.)
The end boss can be killed without agroing the Scorpians, but the Scorpians have to be killed to open the chest....


Both of these quests are far more forgiving than Stealthy Repo, if you mess up. (and I think can be done with a lower MS score, since few Oranged Named Shamen.)

Moltier
07-03-2013, 04:10 AM
OOB is good practice quest, or challenge for the experienced sneaky players.
It can be done with only a few kills.

parowan
07-03-2013, 02:16 PM
Very nice guide Qezuzu. Remember back when doing a full sneak + traps of eClaw was a big deal for us R.O.G.U.E.ers? Then they broke stealth and invis and I've really gotten out of the habit of stealthy play, even tho it's fixed now. That and zerging is just so much more ... efficient in terms of time. Stealthy repo being the classic example. Although I will say this: especially when solo (or if you can convince your party) there are many situations where some patience for stealthy play will actually lead to quicker completions than standing around beating on meatsacks.


You can also use ranged weapons to pull mobs individually. Prior to u17, hitting one mob with a ranged weapon would also alert its friends, but not anymore. I personally don't think this is WAI, so I don't do it. What else is not WAI is being able to Assassinate mobs without aggroing surrounding mobs. IF YOU DO THIS YOUR BODY WILL ROT FROM THE INSIDE OUT DUE TO A CURSE SET UPON YOU BY THE STEALTH GODS. Seriously, it is baby mode for stealth and you will lose all your honor points for doing it.

I agree with the ranged attack, but don't feel as strongly about the assassinate as you do. The surrounding mobs DO investigate, just as if they had heard something. I'm just arrogant enough to think it's unremarkable if I sneak up to a group of mobs, put a knife in one's back, and sneak away, leaving the rest of them shocked, bewildered, furious, unable to figure out who just killed their buddy, and not knowing if the next knife will be aimed at their backs. Is it unrealistic? Perhaps, but so is invisibility, shadow form, and much of the other sneaking involved in stealth play.

Other good quests:
A new invasion
Sins of Attrition
Trial by fury

In fact, I like to farm the locked chest on trial by fury even without completing the quest. Sneaking into the demon's home, stealing his hidden locked, treasure, and then just leaving, has a nice rewarding stealthy feel to it. Like back in the days when we weren't politically correct about it and just called ourselves thieves instead of rogues. Especially on a +2 loot weekend! Other stealthy chest farms include ADQ1, Haywire, Prisoner, and Don't drink the water. Shadowdancer makes this so quick and easy.

I also like to be stealthy in wilderness areas. Especially farming chests in epic gianthold. Skip the mobs. Only chests and red names are worth your time.

Also, one point in favor of monks that I think you left out in your comparison: abundant step can be very useful in stealthy play, and the cooldown on jetboots is 10 long minutes.

Qezuzu
07-03-2013, 02:28 PM
Grr it is not easy to get a 90 at all. First, of all OP your post is not 90 but an 85. Second, you have the form which only comes in shadow dancer for +20 which means that to sneak you have to be a shadowdancer.

I included Shadow Form because, honestly, Shadowdancer is the best Destiny for Stealth. Not just for the massive +20 bonus, but also for the insanely powerful Shadow Manipulation and a few other tricks such as the DDoor clickie, 100% dodge clickie and Sneak Freedom.

All other destinies are mostly focus on DPS, defense, healing and/or spellcasting. Shadowdancer is the only one that has meaningful abilities for stealth. At any rate, you can use any destiny and stealth just fine, I simply believe Shadowdancer is the best choice.

Also, a few other sources of H/MS:

+6 Greensteel Item
+5 Enhancement Bonus (Epic Mirror Cloak, Ghostly Items)
+2 or +5 Epic Ring of Shadows
Higher DEX


I am not sure your threshold numbers for sneak on epic elite are correct either? What do you base that on?

I base that threshold on my own experiences with sneaking. No, you're not going to be instantly spotted if you have a lower score, but the higher your score the more breathing room you have. You have a lower chance of being spotted, can stand in a mob's Line Of Sight longer without getting detected, and can get closer behind them.

It also does depend on what quests you're running. In Epic Fens and Carnival I can get away with as low as 65, but in eGH I advise an absolute minimum of 80.

Qezuzu
07-03-2013, 02:46 PM
Very nice guide Qezuzu. Remember back when doing a full sneak + traps of eClaw was a big deal for us R.O.G.U.E.ers? Then they broke stealth and invis and I've really gotten out of the habit of stealthy play, even tho it's fixed now. That and zerging is just so much more ... efficient in terms of time. Stealthy repo being the classic example. Although I will say this: especially when solo (or if you can convince your party) there are many situations where some patience for stealthy play will actually lead to quicker completions than standing around beating on meatsacks.

I miss R.O.G.U.E. People simply stopped posting in the thread. And now with the forum change the Rogue subforum is as dead as ever.

Stealth is not always efficient, but I find it fun. It's just a shame that people don't use it as much. Even something as simple as bluff pulling the one, singular mob that we need to kill we don't need to kill the rest is too much to ask for a lot of PUGs.

Someday I'd like to try a full, 6-man party of only stealthy players, but I can't find that many people on my server.


I agree with the ranged attack, but don't feel as strongly about the assassinate as you do. The surrounding mobs DO investigate, just as if they had heard something. I'm just arrogant enough to think it's unremarkable if I sneak up to a group of mobs, put a knife in one's back, and sneak away, leaving the rest of them shocked, bewildered, furious, unable to figure out who just killed their buddy, and not knowing if the next knife will be aimed at their backs. Is it unrealistic? Perhaps, but so is invisibility, shadow form, and much of the other sneaking involved in stealth play.

I don't like it because it's extremely easy.


Also, one point in favor of monks that I think you left out in your comparison: abundant step can be very useful in stealthy play, and the cooldown on jetboots is 10 long minutes.

Good point.

Spoonwelder
07-05-2013, 09:52 AM
Just a point - not a stealth person myself - but I would suggest a short list of the types of mobs that have tremor sense or like undead sensing the living and thus a different 'sighting' pattern and or mobs that inherently have true seeing (more of an issue for those using invis to aid their sneaking

ie. Earth ellies, spiders, oozes, tharahk hounds for tremor sense types, beholders for true seeing etc...

Biggles216
07-05-2013, 01:52 PM
I've not tried it, but couldn't an artificer's dog be used to distract/move mobs around, maybe combined with invisibility? They can be called and dismissed at will, directed at targets, pull levers, break crates, etc. Far better control than with a charmed mob or summons. Dismiss it before it gets attacked and you have a re-usable controllable noise-maker.

Talon_Moonshadow
07-05-2013, 03:25 PM
Just a point - not a stealth person myself - but I would suggest a short list of the types of mobs that have tremor sense or like undead sensing the living and thus a different 'sighting' pattern and or mobs that inherently have true seeing (more of an issue for those using invis to aid their sneaking

ie. Earth ellies, spiders, oozes, tharahk hounds for tremor sense types, beholders for true seeing etc...

Spiders and Oozes have Tremor Sense (note that I do not think Driders have tremor sense… and maybe not See Invis either…..)

Dread Wraiths in the Orchard have Life Sense (may work identical to Tremor Sense) (these are the only type of wraith or other undead that have any special senses… that I can think of.)

Bats and Tharask Hounds have Blindsense (the hounds have batlike faces and I think are suppose to be blind and use hearing to see.

Bats may have 360 degree hearing/blindsense, but I believe the hounds actually can be snuck by if you are behind them. (I may be wrong though)

I do not believe that Beholders have any special senses other than 360 degree vision and auto-detect zones.

I do not believe that Earth Ellies have tremor sense (although it seems like they would…) Almost positive I have snuck by them… often….

Most Giants can See Invis. I believe every giant that can cast spells of some sort has See Invis… as a general rule.

Drow and Dueger(sp) can See Invis.

Most Reavers/Flensers can See Invis.

Bezakira(sp) can See Invis.

Also worth noting… caster type monsters.. especially named ones have high Spot/Listen skills. Some of them buff with True Seeing or See Invis when agroed. Or have precast maybe… it seems that Fiendish Trog Shamen in the Vale can See Invis.. But I am not 100% sure. I think some Hobgoblin Shamen buff themselves with True Seeing when agroed… but again… not positive about this..
(I really need to go find out for sure before I type on the forums… sorry….) (But… anyone can test this stuff if they want to…..)

I believe all Purple named bosses always know where you are. (if you are in range)

Many Red named end bosses also cannot be snuck by. (but I think this was not always true)

Another note: many monsters spawn when you get to a certain spot.. regardless of whether or not they actually detect you…. But many spawn practically right on top of you… and thus you get seen by bein gin their auto-detect zone…. (many others spawn and run fast toward you… and end up bumping into you… making them difficult to sneak by as well.)

Many monsters do not have any special means of detecting you, but hide so well that you will most likely bump into them.

Tremor Sense also seems to include the ability to see anything in front of themselves… which is rarely important….but…. ;)

Special movements like Abundant Step do not appear to cause sound…. Or tremors….. (but read the line above this one. ;) )

I am not sure, but I think the new epic Dragons in Giant Hold and FoT cannot be snuck by or hid from…… May not apply to all Dragons…. For one thing it is possible to steal gold from the first Green Dragon in the King’s Forest and get away with it. ;)

That’s all I can think of right now.. didn’t intend this to be so long….
Sorry that some information is speculation and educated guesses…. Also might be not up to date.

Use at your own risk. ;)



Edit: Oh, and at Red Dungeon Alert, everything has See Invis. (plus they move fast... making sneaking very difficult....)

thouston
07-06-2013, 06:44 AM
+1
and bookmarked

gypsythief
07-07-2013, 05:27 AM
Great guide you've written here.

A small amendment for monks however; in your 'at a glance' table you show them as having no movement speed bonus whilst sneaking. With Ninja Spy, you gain 10% speed boost for each tier, for a total of 20% movement speed boost.

Additionally, I have a feeling that the Monks passive run speed increases of 5% per 3 Monk levels still works whilst sneaking, albeit at a reduced sneaking rate. In a not-very-scientific test, my Monk Ninja Spy 12 / Rogue Assassin 6 / Ranger 2 with 30% striding boots racing a Druid with no striding was able to sneak at almost the same speed as the Druid could run, without having taken any of the Rogue Faster Sneaking Enhancements.

gypsythief
07-07-2013, 05:33 AM
Darned double posts!!

gypsythief
07-07-2013, 09:35 AM
Darned triple posts!!!

Qezuzu
07-07-2013, 04:35 PM
Right then, things to do:
-Mention Monk movement speed
-Projectile collision
-Tremorsense info
-Druid/Artie summons

CabooseJTS
07-08-2013, 01:02 PM
Someday I'd like to try a full, 6-man party of only stealthy players, but I can't find that many people on my server.


What server are you on, cause i'd love to be able to do that on my server as well (granted i'm not particularly good at stealth tactics yet, but i will be practicing.)

I play on Sarlona if that helps your 6-man party of stealthy players idea any.

Qezuzu
07-09-2013, 12:31 AM
What server are you on, cause i'd love to be able to do that on my server as well (granted i'm not particularly good at stealth tactics yet, but i will be practicing.)

I play on Sarlona if that helps your 6-man party of stealthy players idea any.

Orien ( ._.)

Qezuzu
07-09-2013, 02:01 PM
If you're on Orien:

/joinchannel Sneaky stabstabstab

EatSmart
07-16-2013, 08:29 AM
Shooting at the ground generates noise at that location. This will break invisibility spells on yourself, but you can stand in a spot where you cant be seen and quickly reinvis before the investigating npcs have line of sight to you. When you're bluff pulling an NPC, be aware that if it has a ranged weapon, it might fire at the wall/ground near you causing mobs to come and investigate the noise the projectile made. Drow are particularly annoying at doing this.

A clicky with a non-damaging spell like command on it is a useful backup if you dont have flawless bluff, as this can be used as a fall-back pulling toy.

A non-damaging cloud spell can be put into an area you know a mob is going to spawn in/patrol through.

Oh, you can assassinate breakables if you're too cheap to use noisemakers ^^

Talon_Moonshadow
07-16-2013, 11:07 AM
A caution and a note.

Talking to NPCs or interacting with many objects (at least the ones that open an diaglog or selection window)( ...like that Drider Amulet table... grrrr) will knock you out of sneak mode. But you can quickly re-enter sneak and hop eyou did not get seen.

It is possible to enter a quest in sneak mode by re-entering sneak after the window is open.
Likewise for NPS diaglog windows, you can re-enter sneak after the windo wis opened.. and mak ewhatever selections you wish.... like talking to him to start a fight...you can activate the fight and be in sneak.

It is difficult to post an exact list o fwhich itneractions knock you out of sneak and which do not.

Generally you can pick up items off the floor and stay in sneak.
You can place items in sockets.
You can turn puzzle wheels and floor tiles.

Most zoning doorways/portals knock you out of sneak, but those that open a wndow first allow you to re-enter sneak and zone in.

Using doors and levers and opening chests (but not looting an open chest) knock you out of sneak.
disabling traps does not.



Also, interaacting with most objects does no tcause noise of any sort.
(in fact the only exceptions I can think of... are for some reason in quests designed to sneak through! ***?!)
Doors, levers, shrines... etc. can be used in silence. (exceptions include one door I can think of in Claw and the mine control panel in blockade buster.... why?! Why?!)

For some reason, Shrines do no tappear to block line of sight.
Using a shrine knock syo out o fsneak... after you finish shrining!

Cap_Man
07-16-2013, 11:34 AM
Here' a couple of stealth tid bits you may want to add to the guide:

If you mount a ladder while in stealth mode, you climb at the normal speed and will still be in stealth mode when you reach the top. You can also just jump towards a ladder, hit stealth in mid-flight and land on the ladder in stealth mode. Works well when there is a mob at the top you want to assassinate like in Bargain of Blood.

This also works for water, just hit stealth before you start swimming (or jump up out of the water and hit stealth), you will be stealthed and swimming at your normal speed. Then when you come up on land you will still be in stealth mode. Nice for places like the Vale with Trogs waiting for you by the shore.

Qezuzu
08-16-2013, 07:41 AM
After the enhancement pass, I'll do some videos (probably) of me completing quests, solo, and with the absolute or near-absolute minimum number of kills.

I may also make a new character and do low-level quests, but the main emphasis is the more challenging epic-level quests.

Tenebris-Niatellim
08-21-2013, 02:38 AM
After the enhancement pass, I'll do some videos (probably) of me completing quests, solo, and with the absolute or near-absolute minimum number of kills.

I may also make a new character and do low-level quests, but the main emphasis is the more challenging epic-level quests.

Can I have a sneak build? I really want to try this R.O.G.U.E thing out.

Tenebris-Niatellim
08-21-2013, 02:39 AM
I have the Drow race if that's optimal? If your sneaking then con matters less, and the 20 int at the start + the charisma for bluff would be helpful right?

Saekee
08-21-2013, 06:55 AM
I have found that if I am fighting a mob around others who have their backs turned, they will not become aware of my presence so long as I keep in the same spot (!!!!). Yes, all that sword banging does not alert them--it is your footsteps or line of sight. This is very useful for kiting large groups.

Another useful assassinate tip: if you bluff an aggroed mob while stealthed, you can assassinate them. Works really well with the Sap feat (which also works superbly with stealth).

Tried stealthing elite Relic of SP with my well-geared level 14 Assassin last night post U19 and I kept getting spotted. The new enhancements, though, are really powerful for assassins (especially the Size up the Foe one which builds up your assissinate dc while stealthing).

Saekee
08-21-2013, 06:59 AM
I have the Drow race if that's optimal? If your sneaking then con matters less, and the 20 int at the start + the charisma for bluff would be helpful right?

hi, bluff is tricky now--it used to pull mobs, even sleeping ones; now not so much. Drow are great assassins based in Int, Dex to damage (daggers and kukris) and Twf post U19. Flint and the polycurse dagger have just become heroic level must-haves--add the sexy parasitic breastplate and you are in fashion

Qezuzu
08-21-2013, 09:53 AM
Can I have a sneak build? I really want to try this R.O.G.U.E thing out.

You can sneak well with any Rogue build so long as you get high Hide and Move Silently.

Tenebris-Niatellim
08-21-2013, 11:10 PM
You can sneak well with any Rogue build so long as you get high Hide and Move Silently.

But to get your level up to access certain stealth quests you need some killing capability to finish the quests that cant be completed with stealth alone. Such as in quests where you have to kill specific targets and or X number of monsters. I guess I'll wait a bit till U19 changes are explored more.

I'm trying out a 6 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 18 int, 8 wis, 8 cha Halfling 28 point int rogue. With the new rogue dex mods for damage and attack I think it'll work out since weapon finesse will allow me to wield weapons other then daggers and still deal damage with my dex mod, while having huge amount of skill points due to int (so high hide and move silently, with trap and spot) and assassinate potential. Unfortunatley I'm only a month experienced in this game so forgive me that I'm not sure what a Rogue Build exactly entails in terms of feats, equipment, and enhancement paths. :P Any specific guidance would be much appreciated. I want to join the ranks of R.O.G.U.E, my experience today stealthing through some of the beginning quests was quite fun (although I failed like 75% of the time).

DemonMage
08-22-2013, 06:18 PM
You just have to be extremely careful with your strength that low. It'll be very easy to get disabled by a single spell, on top of having trouble keeping your encumberence at light. As soon as you hit Medium your max dex bonus to armor caps out at 3 and you lose 5% move speed. At heavy (which won't be difficult to hit with your strength) it'll cap your max dex at 1, and a 12% move speed penalty. As well as -3-6 armor check penalty making it harder to use your rogue skills. I'd highly encourage dropping down to 16 int and grabbing some basic strength for that reason.

Qezuzu
08-22-2013, 11:18 PM
I've recently been leveling up a bardcher, 12brd/6rng/2ftr. At lvl8 now. Stealth capable. With Fascinate, Stealth, and good ranged DPS, I can only imagine she's going to be ridiculously good at soloing, perhaps even better than my rogue.


But to get your level up to access certain stealth quests you need some killing capability to finish the quests that cant be completed with stealth alone. Such as in quests where you have to kill specific targets and or X number of monsters. I guess I'll wait a bit till U19 changes are explored more.

I'm trying out a 6 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 18 int, 8 wis, 8 cha Halfling 28 point int rogue. With the new rogue dex mods for damage and attack I think it'll work out since weapon finesse will allow me to wield weapons other then daggers and still deal damage with my dex mod, while having huge amount of skill points due to int (so high hide and move silently, with trap and spot) and assassinate potential. Unfortunatley I'm only a month experienced in this game so forgive me that I'm not sure what a Rogue Build exactly entails in terms of feats, equipment, and enhancement paths. :P Any specific guidance would be much appreciated. I want to join the ranks of R.O.G.U.E, my experience today stealthing through some of the beginning quests was quite fun (although I failed like 75% of the time).

You have an alright build there, though I would drop INT to 16 and raise STR just to avoid getting disabled by exhaustion debuffs. You don't need (and shouldn't shoot for) absolute maximum Assassinate DCs on a first life toon.

Feats are straightforward:
TWF-line
Toughness (with the new changes, this is debatable)
Precision
Imp. Crit: Pierce or Slash
Combat Expertise: not a feat you see people recommending a lot, but I am a personal advocate. This is very much an end-game feat, though, meant to be paired with Dreadnought Improved Combat Expertise. The extra 20 PRR is essential.

But if you've only played the game for a month, swap Combat Expertise with, uh, something. Maybe skill focus: UMD.

psykopeta
08-23-2013, 03:20 AM
But to get your level up to access certain stealth quests you need some killing capability to finish the quests that cant be completed with stealth alone. Such as in quests where you have to kill specific targets and or X number of monsters. I guess I'll wait a bit till U19 changes are explored more.

I'm trying out a 6 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 18 int, 8 wis, 8 cha Halfling 28 point int rogue. With the new rogue dex mods for damage and attack I think it'll work out since weapon finesse will allow me to wield weapons other then daggers and still deal damage with my dex mod, while having huge amount of skill points due to int (so high hide and move silently, with trap and spot) and assassinate potential. Unfortunatley I'm only a month experienced in this game so forgive me that I'm not sure what a Rogue Build exactly entails in terms of feats, equipment, and enhancement paths. :P Any specific guidance would be much appreciated. I want to join the ranks of R.O.G.U.E, my experience today stealthing through some of the beginning quests was quite fun (although I failed like 75% of the time).

just did it (well, was 6-18-14-18-8-12) and im 9 right now, like they pointed, the encumbrance hurts (also i have tomes) so you won't be able to carry huge ingredients bag for 100 lbs and stuff like that w/o getting encumbered most time, no more worries, just get rage pots and haste pots(rage to reduce the encumbrance, haste to compensate the reduced speed) and you're ok

dps is pretty good, also remember to spend 6 points in acrobat: 2 first cores(dex to hit, dex to damage) and 4 to access the 2nd core(3 on 50% move speed when sneaking is great) because at heroic lvls, for skeles, we (L) sticks!

at lvl 8 i got heal as sla, heals for 100ish so it's pretty nice

my idea while leveling is less than 20 points in halfling, 6 in acrobat, 42 in assassin(40 for cap, 2 for cap), rest mechanic

my feat order:

1 twf
3 finesse
6 dragonmarkof healing
9 itwf
10 improved evasion
12 ic piercing(the only slashing weapon are shortswords iirc, ignore em, i use rapiers instead, also crafted a radiance2 rapier)
13 slippery mind (2nd roll on will save when missing, because u know ur wis will suck)
15 gtwf
16 defensive roll
18 precision (i may take the PL rogue here, not sure, when i hit 18 ill think about that)
19 whatever, ill prolly take oportunist, can take skill mastery if u prefer, crippling strike sucks

and your ED is shadowdancer
also, when u hit 20, reallocate points: reduce from halfling(heal sla keeps being a must), 0 in acrobat, 42 in assassin, and 22 in mechanic(20 to hit the tier, and 2 for the 2nd +1 int from there)

this way u'll have all lvl ups in dex + 2 dex from halfling, and
2 from cap, 2 from mechanic, and 2 from assassin, to mechanic

with that stuff i calculated 55 assassinate dc at 20(which is enough for eh in most quests) and a 40 dex, not great, but not bad, my acrobat had 42 str and never had issues, but my acrobat had cleave and great cleave :(

atm is doing great the assassin though, im thinking on next life do assassin again and use the LR+20 into a palladin (ofc would be other race instead of halfling rofl)

also: keep in mind i have +4 tomes everything and 20+ lives so maybe is easier for me than for a 1st life(just saying lol)

mna
08-23-2013, 06:43 PM
12 ic piercing(the only slashing weapon are shortswords iirc, ignore em, i use rapiers instead, ...


Shortswords are piercing too. (Well, unnamed ones anyway.) The slashing simple weapon is the sickle.

(Since when is a sickle simpler than a hand axe, especially from the user's viewpoint? Then again, not like this game has anything at all to do with real life...)

mna
08-23-2013, 07:07 PM
You have an alright build there, though I would drop INT to 16 and raise STR just to avoid getting disabled by exhaustion debuffs. You don't need (and shouldn't shoot for) absolute maximum Assassinate DCs on a first life toon.

Feats are straightforward:
TWF-line
Toughness (with the new changes, this is debatable)
Precision
Imp. Crit: Pierce or Slash
Combat Expertise: not a feat you see people recommending a lot, but I am a personal advocate. This is very much an end-game feat, though, meant to be paired with Dreadnought Improved Combat Expertise. The extra 20 PRR is essential.


Hm. I was planning a stealth/self-sufficiency build myself, with the idea of having something to boost the dragonmarks too. Not even going to try assassinate, actually, going more into TWF DPS for melee and headshot for ranged...

I had planned something like, 13 Rogue \ 6 Ranger \ 1 Wizard, for extra feats, positive spellpower, and such. Assuming I read things correctly, 6 Ranger should now let me use dex for damage with scimitars and light weapons without spending a feat? (Not rapiers apparently but light maces, hammers and picks too?)

So, the full TWF line, Point Blank Shot, dragonmarks, Maximize, Sap, Dodge, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, IC both ranged and melee, Slippery Mind and Improved Evasion. Also more healing from DWS Lesser Vigor SLA, and stealth from Archmage Invisibility SLA.

Planned to start with 10/17/14/16/8/8, level ups into dex, and take a +2 int tome from the still unopened birthday box at level 7.


The build planning is happening in this (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423081-So-ideas-about-a-self-sufficiency-build-halfling-with-dragonmarks-post-U19) thread, not finalized but being still sort of new to this game that's probably about as good as I'll get on my own without help...


Now, I could easily replace Sap with Precision and one of the Imp Crit feats with Combat Expertise... would that be useful?

psykopeta
08-24-2013, 04:06 AM
Shortswords are piercing too. (Well, unnamed ones anyway.) The slashing simple weapon is the sickle.

(Since when is a sickle simpler than a hand axe, especially from the user's viewpoint? Then again, not like this game has anything at all to do with real life...)

yup, rechecked the finesse feat, and shortsword are piercing, i was sure there was some useful weapon that wasn't piercing, and it's... kukri?! XD

also, halfling assassin rules, i'm glad of waiting for EP to build the last rogue life, lvl 10, 10d6+2 on SA not bad (and have deception,bluff and the blinding skill, so everything dies quite fast lol)

Lauf
09-17-2013, 12:31 AM
first off great guide, you've inspired me to make a stealthy character
however, there is one notion I would like to challenge:



Stealth is not quick! Take your time.


some testing showed me that the "Faster Sneaking" enhancements from different classes stack. currently there are 3 classes (ranger monk and rogue) that are able to take that enhancement, and with each granting +50% to sneak speed, you can end up sneaking at a high speed.
I ended up building a 16 monk / 3 ranger / 1 rogue character, with monk speed and abundant step complementing what is already a very fast character.

this turned out to have very desirable side effects on stealth, as with the latest changes your chances to be detected are increased the longer you stand in front of a monster. moving at this super-fast speed makes you virtually undetectable and allows you to just zoom past crowded rooms before they can take a second look.
thought it worth mentioning, and thanks again for creating this guide!

Bolo_Grubb
09-17-2013, 12:53 AM
Tagged to read later

harry-pancreas
10-18-2013, 11:00 AM
hey, great work! nice to see people is still into stealth. It's possible to do the claw with 1 kill only (the fire giant at the start), though it requires some scaping abilities, like faster sneaking. (some giants spot you always, blame the lever. Gotta pass through them and pray to remain sneaking while they miss rying to hit you, so the roaming scorp dont see you. Then jump quickly to the mid-level)

I did it with 2 kills, with a ranger. Was a lot of fun :)

TeacherSyn
10-29-2013, 08:25 AM
Great general guide.

It doesn't quite look like the guide is up to sync with Update 19's changes, specifically the new stealth AI that will pick off stealthed characters over time if they don't follow the new Spot bonus principles. I only quick-scanned the recent posts so I might have missed something.

Some thoughts in regards to Monks (it's what I play most of the time).

* Monks do gain an assassinate-like ability called Quivering Palm at Level 15. It's primary difference over Rogue's Assassinate is that it has a faster cooldown but also pulls a Monk out of stealth when using it. So ensure that other enemies aren't facing you and your target and return to Sneak immediately on using it.
* Monks gain advantages to Move Silently since they don't wear any armor. Their natural movement speed bonuses aid Faster Sneaking a bit in the Ninja Spy tree.
*The Ninja Spy is the quintessential infiltrator. Unlike a scout, infiltrators have better offenses and are superior in tactical fighting (small groups or isolated enemies). What they cannot outrun, they may stand a better chance to outgun. They also can go invisible at will and gain incorporeality in Heroic play. They are perfect for pure stealth play.
*On Shadow Manipulation, you noted that you "charm a single mob." That's incorrect. I think you meant "dominate a single enemy." It's a "charm +1" in that the dominated enemy follows you and fights for 1 minute before it will likely fail a Fortitude save and die. Charmed enemies just stay in their relative location.

Warbler
10-06-2015, 01:24 AM
I would like to point out that a bards buff type songs can be used as noise makers. Songs don't break stealth. Play a song and walk around mobs. I've used this in toee hallways with success.

phillymiket
10-06-2015, 02:50 AM
I like to use stealth with some speed. The only way to do that IMO is by knowing exactly where every mob is.
I find Listen a super useful stealth skill for that and well worth the skill points.
Spot is great, and I have that too but sometimes jungles and dungeons camouflage a mobs outline.
The little red footprints are quite distinct and help in zipping past areas quickly and confidently.
Though Listen is certainly a luxury skill, I'd gladly sacrifice some other non-essential skill in favor of it.

Wongar
10-14-2015, 03:02 PM
Love this thread and am happy to be able to add to it.

I recently took the Warlock Feat Past Life: Delver of the Forbidden. "You recall more about your past life as a Warlock. You gain +3 to your Spellcraft skill. You can Confuse an enemy for 12 seconds (no saving throw). This can be used ten times per rest."

Import things about Confuse:

Usable 10 times per rest - free
Very short Cooldown (~3 seconds)
Does not break stealth
No Save
One mob confused distracts all nearby mobs

I have come to use it frequently for opening doors and getting through tight spots - moving/distracting mobs much like Shadow Manipulation. However unlike Shadow Manipulation it is available in Heroics and other Epic Destinies. Even better because it has no save it can be used with all builds.

I find that if I confuse a mob (preferably ranged so it does not move) that all nearby mobs (including stealthed ones) will move to it. So the attention of all mobs is on the confused mob leaving me free to break stealth, open the door/pull lever/etc, and restealth without being seen and without invis.