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mikarddo
06-14-2013, 07:04 AM
Greetings

I am considering reconfiguring my presently 20 FvS into a 18 FvS / 2 Pal for max saves. I expect to still easily solo EH quests so my main concern is playing the healer in full groups on harder EE quests and in (often shortmanned) raids.

I am considering the following:
- Dump STR, WIS, DEX and INT, Medium CON, High CHA (for SP and saves)
- Quick, Emp Heal, Emp, Max, Tough, Epic Tough, MT, IMT, EMT and Enlarge. The latter might be untraditional but I find it very valuable when being the only healer on a raid (CitW or in particular FoT).
- EA as main destiny (Renewal, Avenging Light, Rebuke (great on raids), Divine Wrath, +10% SP, CHA etc).
- Twists when doing easy stuff or soloing - definitely Energy Burst but uncertain what else I will be taking.

Twist when doing harder stuff is where I am less certain.
- +6 fort save and nofail on a 1 is nice if there are serious fort save effects.
- +6 will save and nofail on a 1 is extremely nice if there are serios will save effects - mostly holds, dances and stuns.
- +40% exceptional fortification is great against melee damage. I wish I could cover that in some other way.
- Cocoon is superb for healing others and oneself.
- Energy Sheath with +50% energy absorb is great if a particular type of elemental damage is the main concern.
That no less than 5 twists though. Maybe if I was paying more attention I would know which quests/raids to take which of those, hmm.

Any advice, ideas or suggestions are most welcome.

Veles
06-14-2013, 08:39 AM
Didn't you ask the same thing a while ago ? I shouldn't remind you of pally option in that FoT :)
Essentially trading ~ 200 sp, true res and energy drain for 17+saves.
Mine hjealzorgimp has the same feats except enlarge, took Force of personality which is necesssary if you go full ****** saves. Certainly don't need enlarge for Citw ( enlarge wouldn't help when someone is blocked, cocoon is better ) and well, it's very rare to be the only hjealer in FoT ( besides, if people are playing dumb, enlarge wouldn't help either, cocoon again ). But you can drop epic toughness for that of course, which I think is worth more.

I have no EE FoT experience though.

Twists are combination of cocoon, Shiradi spring+that one more use Fey something, brace, sheath,magister dodge, lithe ...depending on stuff you do.

Wil/fort is always 65+. reflex depends on twists.

mikarddo
06-14-2013, 09:22 AM
Didn't you ask the same thing a while ago ? I shouldn't remind you of pally option in that FoT :)
Essentially trading ~ 200 sp, true res and energy drain for 17+saves.
Mine hjealzorgimp has the same feats except enlarge, took Force of personality which is necesssary if you go full ****** saves. Certainly don't need enlarge for Citw ( enlarge wouldn't help when someone is blocked, cocoon is better ) and well, it's very rare to be the only hjealer in FoT ( besides, if people are playing dumb, enlarge wouldn't help either, cocoon again ). But you can drop epic toughness for that of course, which I think is worth more.

I have no EE FoT experience though.

Twists are combination of cocoon, Shiradi spring+that one more use Fey something, brace, sheath,magister dodge, lithe ...depending on stuff you do.

Wil/fort is always 65+. reflex depends on twists.

I have asked questions regarding 18 FvS / 2 Pally before thats true - though not quite the questions posted here unless my Alzheimers has gotten worse ;)

I am quite often the only healer in EH FoT when my small guild raids. Usually its 7-8 people with me the sole healer. So thats common for me though not so in pugs.

You never use the twists that means even a 1 isnt a fail on will or fort saves to completely avoid being caught in a hold/stun/whatever?

Would you mind posting your build and gear? I am curious :)

Veles
06-14-2013, 10:48 AM
Regarding saves, certainly don't know exact numbers for no fail on 1 EVERYWHERE, gotta ask someone else :) But 65+ will/fort, 50-68 reflex is okay I guess.
I leveled her as classic wisdom evoker then free LRed and took 2 pally as 19 and 20.
11+3
10+2
18+3 I definitely put 1 or 2 points into con for etoughness
9+3
8+4
22+4
Gear is kinda "welfare" :P
Head : 3 charisma with GL and +1 con
Goggles : conc opp hp
Armour : Cavalry with heavy fort
Bracers : 20 amp/superior parry
Left ring : LGA with 160 sp , deathblock of 33 % electric absorb
Boots : hard Threads
Gloves : PDK
Right ring : 25% fort nat armour 6 / charisma 8 protect 6
Belt : 8 con 13 balance / 2 Planar girds / invis clickie
Cloak : char 7 resist 7 / vital resist 7 / jeweled cloak
Trinket : EE Fetish / 8 charisma
Neck : War wizard turn in, some kind of GS will go here

Skiver/EE bulwark or Twilight, it's a mess but kinda works, basically needs only high hp, high saves, some exc fort, max devo and radiance. Didn't really think about augments that much, it's a first life toon which I don't pay much attention to :) Guess I could farm another EE cloak to wear it full time and slot it, or get blue plate or something ... or Balizarde or that longsword noone ever wants .
But that would mean maybe 20 hp or 1-2 saves or major vs greater lore difference, can't be arsed to rejig gear completely.

You get ~ 800 hp/4k sp , godly saves , you are ready to hjeal those minion..erm party members to victory ! Even the terrible ones.

AtomicMew
06-15-2013, 12:04 AM
Tell the noobs to BYOH. Then you don't have to play a gimp build!

mikarddo
06-15-2013, 04:07 AM
Tell the noobs to BYOH. Then you don't have to play a gimp build!

I will bite. What kind of FvS build would you make then?

I have tried an evoker build with maxed wisdom including a +5 wis tome. The wis dumped build using Avenging Light+Divine Wrath+Energy burst is stronger offensively and defensively both, has more mana and uses less mana to accomplice things so pots are hardly ever needed and I often skip shrines hence running faster - so if an evoker is your suggestion then please elaborate because in my experience thats an inferior build right now. Even more so as Implosion is bugged atm.

If your suggestion is to play another class entirely then I will pass - I like being a FvS and even like healing as well when needed.

AtomicMew
06-15-2013, 05:12 AM
I will bite. What kind of FvS build would you make then?

I have tried an evoker build with maxed wisdom including a +5 wis tome. The wis dumped build using Avenging Light+Divine Wrath+Energy burst is stronger offensively and defensively both, has more mana and uses less mana to accomplice things so pots are hardly ever needed and I often skip shrines hence running faster - so if an evoker is your suggestion then please elaborate because in my experience thats an inferior build right now. Even more so as Implosion is bugged atm.

If your suggestion is to play another class entirely then I will pass - I like being a FvS and even like healing as well when needed.

I would play a FvS splashed with 16 levels of arti, 2 levels of monk and 2 levels of ranger.

AtomicMew
06-15-2013, 05:16 AM
Okay, but seriously if you're dead set on being a FvS, it's not terrible. 17 levels is obviously required for wings, but beyond that level 9 spells are pretty worthless. 17 FvS/2 paladin (or ranger)/1 X in FotW or LD. X can be any number of solid splashes, including ranger, monk, fighter or even barbarian. There is no point in playing a weak charisma based caster when your DPS is literally like 1/3 of a proper build.

On the other hand, if you're willing to give up wings you could try 16 cleric/2 monk/2 ranger (or paladin), which is probably slightly more defensish and blobby. Play it like a fleshy juggernaut.

mikarddo
06-15-2013, 03:18 PM
Enjoy playing your juggernaut. I am uncertain why you figured those would be relevant in a thread about FvS healers but enjoy just the same.

AtomicMew
06-15-2013, 06:07 PM
Because playing a divine class is gimp. Sorry if you don't want to hear it, but that's the objective truth right now. Even still, there are far better ways to play a healer class than that ridiculous build in the OP and I made two obvious suggestions.

Bother to read my post.

mikarddo
06-16-2013, 12:11 PM
Because playing a divine class is gimp. Sorry if you don't want to hear it, but that's the objective truth right now. Even still, there are far better ways to play a healer class than that ridiculous build in the OP and I made two obvious suggestions.

Bother to read my post.

I dont question that a juggernaut, monkcher or shiradi caster is better damage than a cha based FvS caster. Thats expected and how it should be. If its overall 3 times as much I cannot say but its possible. For burst its definitely more than 3x though that I am certain of with furyshot.

Based on my experience I have to question though if you have tried playing the build I present. Sure, going LD or FotW melee FvS might be better dps though I question just how much more - but it sure also would be worse saves than 18 FvS + 2 Pal cha based and much less SP. Since this thead was about being a healer as well - not just soloing in a group or raid - that does strike me as odd. Hence I dont consider your suggestions obvious at all.

I guess your reply will be not to heal others since thats "gimp" and you may be correct but thats not my kind of game.

Enoach
06-16-2013, 12:28 PM
As for the split the question that only you can answer is do you feel the Extra Saves justify the Loss of 1 Level 8 and 2 Level 9 Spells worth it.

Do you feel the weakness of your previous builds was in making saves?

Next don't listen to the Flavor of the Month Crowd too much, I say this because when the next flavor comes (and not from a FotMC member) they will move on to defend that and say how much the other flavor isn't worth it.

There are many diverse players out their succeeding with builds many would balk at.

==================================
You have a unique experience here playing both as a DC caster and as a Nuke (with light). You have already got a grasp of the potentials of the FvS. Trust you gut, the worst case is a LR+2 or even a TR.

AtomicMew
06-16-2013, 08:19 PM
As for the split the question that only you can answer is do you feel the Extra Saves justify the Loss of 1 Level 8 and 2 Level 9 Spells worth it.

Do you feel the weakness of your previous builds was in making saves?

Next don't listen to the Flavor of the Month Crowd too much, I say this because when the next flavor comes (and not from a FotMC member) they will move on to defend that and say how much the other flavor isn't worth it.

There are many diverse players out their succeeding with builds many would balk at.

==================================
You have a unique experience here playing both as a DC caster and as a Nuke (with light). You have already got a grasp of the potentials of the FvS. Trust you gut, the worst case is a LR+2 or even a TR.

When the next FOTM comes out, my shiradi caster and monkcher will still be better than your CHA based divine. Having an even more powerful build doesn't mean your divine is suddenly better than past FOTMs. It just means it's even that much more behind relevant end game builds.

There are actually very few successful builds, but then again our definitions may be a bit different. If you think simply completing any old EE is "successful" I'll just have to disagree. Personally, my definition of "successful" is a build that is not significantly outclassed by any other build. A successful build should be in the 95th percentile of power. Therefore, it's a bit axiomatic that most builds cannot be successful, by definition.


I dont question that a juggernaut, monkcher or shiradi caster is better damage than a cha based FvS caster. Thats expected and how it should be. If its overall 3 times as much I cannot say but its possible. For burst its definitely more than 3x though that I am certain of with furyshot.

Based on my experience I have to question though if you have tried playing the build I present. Sure, going LD or FotW melee FvS might be better dps though I question just how much more - but it sure also would be worse saves than 18 FvS + 2 Pal cha based and much less SP. Since this thead was about being a healer as well - not just soloing in a group or raid - that does strike me as odd. Hence I dont consider your suggestions obvious at all.

I guess your reply will be not to heal others since thats "gimp" and you may be correct but thats not my kind of game.

I understand the value of healing, especially in raids where not everyone one is necessarily self sufficient. However, it's been proven that a group of self sufficient toons can easily shortman the hardest raids in the game. In an ideal situation, there's really no room for a healer type build because being self sufficient cost very little in terms of giving up DPS to be able to self heal, thanks to E.D's.

Perhaps in the future if traditional DPS classes like barbarian or fighter gain significant DPS features this will change, but given the enhancement previews I sincerely doubt it.

mikarddo
06-17-2013, 01:56 AM
I believe the difference here is that my game involves a semi-casual small guild where we raid with 4-8 people of which only a few have multiple past lives, maxed EDs and optimal gear. This ups the relative value of healing - not least because I am usually the only healer.

On the other if I was raiding with 12 multi-TR, max ED, max geared people then healing might be of little value.

So, I reckon its a case of different envirronments promoting different values.

At any rate - thanks for the discussion to all that chimed in. When I find the time I will probably grab an alignment change and a +3 LR to try the pally splash to see if the lost SP, spells and capstone is more than offset by the huge boost to saves. Sometimes I simply have more time to post on the forum than actually play and thus its easier to dabate changes to a build than to actually try out the change :)

Nabuchadnezzar83
06-17-2013, 07:36 AM
Greetings

I am considering reconfiguring my presently 20 FvS into a 18 FvS / 2 Pal for max saves. I expect to still easily solo EH quests so my main concern is playing the healer in full groups on harder EE quests and in (often shortmanned) raids.

I am considering the following:
- Dump STR, WIS, DEX and INT, Medium CON, High CHA (for SP and saves)
- Quick, Emp Heal, Emp, Max, Tough, Epic Tough, MT, IMT, EMT and Enlarge. The latter might be untraditional but I find it very valuable when being the only healer on a raid (CitW or in particular FoT).
- EA as main destiny (Renewal, Avenging Light, Rebuke (great on raids), Divine Wrath, +10% SP, CHA etc).
- Twists when doing easy stuff or soloing - definitely Energy Burst but uncertain what else I will be taking.

Twist when doing harder stuff is where I am less certain.
- +6 fort save and nofail on a 1 is nice if there are serious fort save effects.
- +6 will save and nofail on a 1 is extremely nice if there are serios will save effects - mostly holds, dances and stuns.
- +40% exceptional fortification is great against melee damage. I wish I could cover that in some other way.
- Cocoon is superb for healing others and oneself.
- Energy Sheath with +50% energy absorb is great if a particular type of elemental damage is the main concern.
That no less than 5 twists though. Maybe if I was paying more attention I would know which quests/raids to take which of those, hmm.

Any advice, ideas or suggestions are most welcome.

This is almost exactly the build I'm playing on Guhennyr on Thelanis.
With the difference that Guhennyr is meant to be a 32 point secondary toon never to be TR'd.
I went 18 CON, 18+6 CHA, rest 8, human 18/2. I also took the dragonmarks of finding to bless chests instead of the mental toughnesses, you might do the same if you find that your sp pool is more than enough. I have over 3800 sp and I hardly drink a pot ever, so no need for the MT feats right now, will take them after the expansion since dragonmarks will only cost one feat then. 7 knocks a rest is handy too in VoN5 and other places.
Many people will say that chest blessing is useless, but I already found all my +4 tomes for Guhennyr and my main Cairnadal using chest bless, and many more spawned for those who allowed me to bless their chests. Mileages may vary, but I found those feats to be more valuable than 500 sp to me.
Whatever your standing about dragonmarks, I took enlarge after my second FoT and would never come back. It's very handy to heal far away toons, and keep cocoon for emergency. I basically spam enlarged & empowered healing renewals and enlarged & empowered & maximized avenging lights, enlarge is really good on both, and it's free.
As you said, I feel evoker build being inferior to max CON/CHA build, even more so if the toon is a first lifer without the required DCs and spell pen.
As a bonus, paladin levels also give heavy armor proficiency. White dragonplate is sexy and gives a good chunk of PRR. I often use divine power to increase it further, -25% incoming physical damage is good for survivability.

I keep the following as twists:
- Energy Burst Fire is obvious
- Rejuvenating Cocoon, works at very high distance and across barriers, very handy in emergencies, which tend to happen a lot. I keep this all the time.
- Lithe +6 to AC and Reflex Save isn't bad for me, since my AC is about 90 it actually works sometimes, that's yet another layer of protection.
- Energy Sheathe Electric instead of Lithe when I run FoT and Tor.
- Energy Absorption instead of Energy Burst Fire when I run FoT, Tor and ToD. It's handy to throw at the reaver/shadow tank also, sometimes that means myself.

darthhento
06-17-2013, 09:03 AM
Greetings

I am considering reconfiguring my presently 20 FvS into a 18 FvS / 2 Pal for max saves. I expect to still easily solo EH quests so my main concern is playing the healer in full groups on harder EE quests and in (often shortmanned) raids.

~snip~

Any advice, ideas or suggestions are most welcome.

Have you considered the option of /2 monk and adding melee damage to your healbotting?

I'm currently enjoying my 2nd life melee healbot. Think the starting stats were 16/14/14/8/16/10 with +3s across the board, all lvlups into STR.
Feats: Emp, Max, Quicken, MT, IMT, EMT, PA, Stunning fist, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC Bludgeon, Tuffness

It stands with 3,9k SP; ~700HP, saves in the mid 40's unbuffed. Usual stunning fist DC is 56, 62 if I'm the only CCer in GMoF. Not a no-fail but good enough for group play.

Usually running in Primal with Sense Weakness, extra SP/Legendary Tactics/Primal Scream/Lithe twisted in.

I found that Perma Blur, Incorp and Dodge are much better damage mitigation than AC can ever be and in cases where saves might fail me PLIS does the job more than well (FoT).

Veles
06-17-2013, 10:08 AM
But then, 56 stun doesn't work as CC in GH/u16 reliably, with low prr isn't it too risky to even go into melee ? Not mentioning wraps damage on non stunned must be anemic.
Mid 40s saves aren't enough either, so evasion is kinda redundant too.

It's an option ( it could work with pefect gear/lives probably ), just str level ups and no room for renewal seems questionable to me. I believe wis level ups would be much better.

Anyway my fvsgimphjealzor (http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/ghallanda/bellezza/) to help you decide to ( or not :P) LR. That's with sheath, coccoon, and Shiradi spring as twists on log off. No GH or brace, so saves are 6 higher. There's at least one more 18/2 on Ghallanda.

Btw Atomic, so you essentially saying when I want to play fvs and see a "normal, not bad, not excellent" group for let's say EE Detour or Trial or Cry looking for fvs/clr, I should relog and bring my monkcher and solo it for them ?
I am sure they would totally have fun !

mikarddo
06-17-2013, 10:33 AM
Good debate. What do you guys do wrt exceptional fortification? Just slot a +25% somewhere or twist in the +40% or both?

Ancient
06-17-2013, 10:50 AM
I understand the value of healing, especially in raids where not everyone one is necessarily self sufficient. However, it's been proven that a group of self sufficient toons can easily shortman the hardest raids in the game. In an ideal situation, there's really no room for a healer type build because being self sufficient cost very little in terms of giving up DPS to be able to self heal, thanks to E.D's.
I find the epic irony in the above paragraph very amusing. For the longest time, BYOH was stigmatized as intentionally gimping a character. Eventually, it was shown and accepted that in some quests, a team of self-sufficient toons working together could accomplish the task faster. Now we have reached the point where a very credible source is stating that this also extends to raids.... and quite frankly, I don't see a strong counter argument based on game mechanics.

The social arguments, I'll sum up with the following: There are now enough BYOH players that choosing to exclude them is just as exclusionary as a byoh player excluding a non-self-sufficient toon.

SirValentine
06-24-2013, 11:46 AM
I am considering the following:
- Dump STR, WIS, DEX and INT, Medium CON, High CHA (for SP and saves)
- Quick, Emp Heal, Emp, Max, Tough, Epic Tough, MT, IMT, EMT and Enlarge.


Not my kind of build, but if that's what you like.



- +40% exceptional fortification is great against melee damage. I wish I could cover that in some other way.


Leaves of the Forest. It's Medium, so FvS are proficient, and comes with 150% Fort. Also +3 Insightful Con (which you will probably appreciate) and +3 Insightful Wis (which I love, but your build likely doesn't care about). There's one less twist.



- Cocoon is superb for healing others and oneself.


You're a FvS, in EA, and you're worried about twisting in more healing? I don't see a need. I'd dump this.

SirValentine
06-24-2013, 11:54 AM
I have tried an evoker build with maxed wisdom including a +5 wis tome. The wis dumped build using Avenging Light+Divine Wrath+Energy burst is stronger offensively and defensively both


Sure, maxxing out Charisma with the Pally splash will give you better saves, i.e., defenses.

But you're going to have to break it down to me in really small, simple steps if you want me to buy that dumping Wis is somehow stronger offensively.

You realize someone with a high Wisdom can still use that same Avenging Light+Divine Wrath+Energy burst stuff, while ALSO being able to cast credible CC or instakills? How is having the same offensive options plus MORE offensive options inferior offensively?



has more mana


Yeah, pumping up Cha wil give you a bit more SP. As will dumping feats into Mental Toughness.

SirValentine
06-24-2013, 12:11 PM
Okay, but seriously if you're dead set on being a FvS, it's not terrible. 17 levels is obviously required for wings


OP did say they were running in EA, so "17 for Wings" is useless. You get wings for free as part of EA.



...but beyond that level 9 spells are pretty worthless.


Do you actually play divines? One of the best DPS spells in the game is worthless?

SirValentine
06-24-2013, 12:16 PM
A successful build should be in the 95th percentile of power. Therefore, it's a bit axiomatic that most builds cannot be successful, by definition.


That's the most foolish definition I've heard in a while.

Results matter. Silly little "my e-peen is bigger than your e-peen" games do not.

Ancient
06-24-2013, 12:39 PM
But you're going to have to break it down to me in really small, simple steps if you want me to buy that dumping Wis is somehow stronger offensively.
It is far more than just dumping wis. It is dumping wis, the evocation DC/spell pen feats and enhancements and then redirecting that towards improving offense that works in the current EE environment. Part of the resources that are freed up improve the direct damage based offense, other parts go towards survival because dead offense is no offense (at least now that Shiradi has been changed).

Yes, a multiple past life build with the very highest end gear can get to "ok" level performance in content that a first life build could do with lower quality gear.

AtomicMew
06-24-2013, 01:26 PM
OP did say they were running in EA, so "17 for Wings" is useless. You get wings for free as part of EA.



Do you actually play divines? One of the best DPS spells in the game is worthless?

Apparently, you don't play end game. 17 for wings is obvious, because as a melee divine (as I suggested instead), you won't be in EA.

Implosion is not "one of the best DPS spells in the game." It's absolutely worthless in EE GH Tor, and from the looks of it, things will be worse when the expansion comes out in August and level cap raise means things will have even more inflated saves.

From the looks of it, you're sorely out of the loop. You shouldn't assume that things are the same as they were in U14, things have changed drastically. It's more than obvious that the 18/2 CHA based paladin splash is probably the current strongest caster type divine. However, my claim was that a caster type divine is simply not good anymore.


That's the most foolish definition I've heard in a while.

Results matter. Silly little "my e-peen is bigger than your e-peen" games do not.
You're right, absolutely results matter. Take your divine and try out the following, in order of increasing difficulty:

Solo:
-EE Thorn and paw end fight
-EE Belly of the beast (30 mins)
-EE PoP with beholder and lailat rooms (40 mins)
-EE Tor (1h30m)
-FoT EN or higher (30 mins) without relying on certain bugs

SirValentine
06-24-2013, 04:51 PM
It is far more than just dumping wis. It is dumping wis, the evocation DC/spell pen feats and enhancements and then redirecting that towards improving offense that works in the current EE environment. Part of the resources that are freed up improve the direct damage based offense


Thanks for vague generalities. It's the same claim, but still with nothing to support it. I'm not saying it's false, or that I can't be convinced, but:



you're going to have to break it down to me in really small, simple steps


Please be specific. *HOW* does a Wis-dumped build get whatever amazing more offense you're hinting at?

SirValentine
06-24-2013, 05:08 PM
Apparently, you don't play end game.


Oh, it's apparent, is it? LOL.



17 for wings is obvious, because as a melee divine (as I suggested instead), you won't be in EA.


So...you're saying it was a meaningless non sequitur to the OP's desire to build a light-nuker? OK then. I'm not going to argue with irrelevancies.



Implosion is not "one of the best DPS spells in the game."


So? Did somebody claim it was? If you're unfamiliar with the divine spell list, you can look it up on the DDO Wiki.

Also, Implosion is far from worthless, even in EE Tor.



my claim was that a caster type divine is simply not good anymore.


I think your claim is silly. But, regardless, if you feel that way, why are you here trolling the FvS forum?

AtomicMew
06-24-2013, 11:10 PM
Oh, it's apparent, is it? LOL.



So...you're saying it was a meaningless non sequitur to the OP's desire to build a light-nuker? OK then. I'm not going to argue with irrelevancies.



So? Did somebody claim it was? If you're unfamiliar with the divine spell list, you can look it up on the DDO Wiki.

Also, Implosion is far from worthless, even in EE Tor.



I think your claim is silly. But, regardless, if you feel that way, why are you here trolling the FvS forum?

This discussion is just going to go in circles. Just show what you've done with your exalted angel FvS in the hardest content. If FvS/EA is so awesome like you say it is, solo TOR dragons and solo FOT should be easy accomplishments for you.

As you said, RESULTS MATTER. SO SHOW THEM.

SirValentine
06-25-2013, 03:27 AM
This discussion is just going to go in circles. Just show what you've done...


I know what I done, and don't have to prove anything to you. You might notice I never even made some claim about any specific build being better than or worse than your little Jug build. I certainly notice you don't ever provide the link to the proof of all the amazing things you've done, after coming to the FvS forum to dis FvS, even though you're the one so set on proving which build is better than the other.

You're the one coming on to the FvS forum with the sarcasm and insults and snide remarks and holier-than-thou ****.



Tell the noobs to BYOH. Then you don't have to play a gimp build!

I would play a FvS splashed with 16 levels of arti, 2 levels of monk and 2 levels of ranger.

level 9 spells are pretty worthless

playing a divine class is gimp

Apparently, you don't play end game

you're sorely out of the loop

my claim was that a caster type divine is simply not good anymore


If you want to actually convince anyone of anything, A) show YOUR work, and B), stop being such a jerk. But of course, I suspect you're just trolling and waving your e-peen, so I don't actually expect to see any helpful, mature responses out of you.

Ancient
06-25-2013, 08:51 AM
Please be specific. *HOW* does a Wis-dumped build get whatever amazing more offense you're hinting at?

Hmmm, I guess what you are asking for is a guide to "a light based epic FVS build"... Look a little closer :)

I break it down by the numbers and talk through a lot of options.

Ancient
06-25-2013, 08:57 AM
I certainly notice you don't ever provide the link to the proof of all the amazing things you've done, after coming to the FvS forum to dis FvS, even though you're the one so set on proving which build is better than the other.

You're the one coming on to the FvS forum with the sarcasm and insults and snide remarks and holier-than-thou ****.
That doesn't help... Yes, AM is a little abrasive, but the posts do provide information. If you run them off then you are simply shutting off one source of information.

I'm one of the champions of DD FVS builds, and I have to admit it does not have the offense of a Shiradi. If you are looking for something that can heal raids and isn't helpless on its own and doesn't have the best gear or past lives... it is one of the best builds (IMO). That is a narrow niche, but it serves a purpose.

Enoach
06-25-2013, 09:43 AM
FvS can be built in so many different ways from Melee to Range to DC focus.

I lament that DC requirements of Epic Elite Quests like GH have been blown out of proportion due to the CR to HD conversion currently being used. While I am all for requiring Debuff's at the highest level to increase effectiveness, it should not require 5+ Energy Drains to get a 50/50 shot especially with a 50+ DC spell school.

The problem that the current system has made is the DC casting is not as cost efficient as nuke casting at the EE level. The Sharadi Champion ED has also added in some Crowd Control options that builds like the Juggernaut can take better advantage of than a FvS due to the number of different and fast attack options (Repeating Crossbow w/Endless Fuselage and Many Shot for example)

I personally have a lot of fun in EE content on my FvS and while the groups I run with don't finish quests in record time, we do finish without struggling to do so.

SirValentine
06-25-2013, 10:27 AM
Hmmm, I guess what you are asking for is a guide to "a light based epic FVS build"... Look a little closer :)

I break it down by the numbers and talk through a lot of options.

Where's that, your by-the-numbers stuff? I don't see it in this thread.

But I do have some idea of Light-based FvS. And I've seen a number of builds that are Cha- or Con-based, and spend all their feats on Toughness and Mental Toughness stuff.

But none of that actually gives them any more Light DPS than a Wis-based that takes Heighten and Spell Focus, etc.. I don't see how going for DCs forces you to give up any substantial amount of Light DPS, or how ignoring DCs gets you substantially more Light DPS. I would be interested in any concrete ways ignoring DCs gets more Light DPS, not just more spell points.

Ancient
06-25-2013, 10:40 AM
Where's that, your by-the-numbers stuff? I don't see it in this thread.
The NovaSoul link in my sig... on each and every post I make.


I would be interested in any concrete ways ignoring DCs gets more Light DPS,
not just more spell points.
It isn't very complex, although Light DPS is just a portion. If you pursue DC's then your going to be in a DC oriented epic destiny and have twists to support that. A DD build can be in EA, twist in energy burst, toss boulder and wild shot. Yes, you could do this in a wisdom build... but then you didn't gain much for your wisdom, and you further limit the effectiveness of your DC capabilities.

The bar for worth while DCs has been raised so high that it isn't worth the effort. Put the enhancements into the full smiting line and the rest into survival. Dead FVS don't have DPS. You also need to look past DPS, in EEs and tougher content, efficiency is an important consideration. If toss boulder kills something for free, where is the wisdom in spending 50+ spell points to do the same thing?

Teh_Troll
06-25-2013, 10:41 AM
Perhaps in the future if traditional DPS classes like barbarian or fighter gain significant DPS features this will change, but given the enhancement previews I sincerely doubt it.

Playing a 16/2/2 paladin made me want to kill myself.

Teh_Troll
06-25-2013, 10:46 AM
I find the epic irony in the above paragraph very amusing. For the longest time, BYOH was stigmatized as intentionally gimping a character. Eventually, it was shown and accepted that in some quests, a team of self-sufficient toons working together could accomplish the task faster. Now we have reached the point where a very credible source is stating that this also extends to raids.... and quite frankly, I don't see a strong counter argument based on game mechanics.

The social arguments, I'll sum up with the following: There are now enough BYOH players that choosing to exclude them is just as exclusionary as a byoh player excluding a non-self-sufficient toon.

it's not faster, it really isn't. Take 4 max-DPS barbs/kensais, a bard, and a hjealbot into some EEs some time. This is typically NOT how we roll (we're usually on our self-sufficient toons) but sometimes we want to try something different. 5 toons with ESoS cleaving is just a weed-whacker of death.

Veles
06-25-2013, 10:57 AM
Where's that, your by-the-numbers stuff? I don't see it in this thread.
~500 sp and 3% crit/0.25 on crit damage if you don't have tier 3 blue or Rahkir( still lol) for throwing away your spellbook . Superior lore on shield, that is.
But you sure know that (I mean, you might have one of the strongest completionist fvs/clerics in game/server, so what the heck do you know about fvs ? )

You won't get by-the-numbers stuff.
Every good divine took smiting lines when we got DP, that was when ? Spring 2011 ?
Then there was that hysterical "Chilled" thread about totally new light build.

~ 17- 20+ saves with 2 pally is no joke, but pure ? I have one of these, but I have no illusions i can do something worthwile or contribute " awesome dps".
While my main is tring.

SirValentine
06-25-2013, 11:00 AM
It isn't very complex


OK...then I stand by my original contention: dumping DCs on a caster FvS does not in any way get you any better offense.



If you pursue DC's then your going to be in a DC oriented epic destiny


There is only one Epic Destiny that gives a FvS both Wisdom and caster levels. What "DC oriented" ED do you think a FvS caster is going to be in?



Yes, you could do this in a wisdom build... but then you didn't gain much for your wisdom, and you further limit the effectiveness of your DC capabilities.


I have no idea what that means. What I gain for my Wisdom is higher DCs. I don't know why you think that "further" limits effectiveness.



Put the enhancements into the full smiting line...


Weren't people already doing that even before Epic Destinies existed in this game?

SirValentine
06-25-2013, 11:12 AM
~500 sp and 3% crit/0.25 on crit damage if you don't have tier 3 blue or Rahkir( still lol)


Heh, I used to use the Rahkir's set, back in the day.



Every good divine took smiting lines when we got DP, that was when ? Spring 2011 ?


Update 9. Same time as the Epic changes, if I remember correctly.



~ 17- 20+ saves with 2 pally is no joke


Oh sure. And I never argued against that going for saves was worthwhile. Just the contention that ignoring DCs somehow made a FvS stronger OFFENSIVELY.

Ancient
06-25-2013, 11:12 AM
OK...then I stand by my original contention: dumping DCs on a caster FvS does not in any way get you any better offense.
Counter point: for a first life toon, pumping DC doesn't result in a worth while increase in offense at epic levels.


There is only one Epic Destiny that gives a FvS both Wisdom and caster levels. What "DC oriented" ED do you think a FvS caster is going to be in?
And what twists do you have... you cut that portion out.

SirValentine
06-25-2013, 11:25 AM
Counter point: for a first life toon, pumping DC doesn't result in a worth while increase in offense at epic levels.


In EE GH, probably not. But EH? Older EE content? It's been a LONG time since I've ran a first-life toon, so I can't say from personal experience, but I strongly suspect that there's quite a bit of content where a first-life toon can get usable DCs, and where each additional point of DC makes a difference. Without giving up the option to Light-nuke.

But I'm not saying Light-nuke-only-types are bad or ineffective, or that everyone should be a DC-caster. Build and play what you find fun, of course. I just challenged the claim that dumping DCs is stronger offensively, and haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.



And what twists do you have... you cut that portion out.


They are not set in stone. I can twist in whatever I need to depending on what I'm running.

DCs...survival...damage...spell pen...whatever.

Ancient
06-25-2013, 11:33 AM
In EE GH, probably not. But EH? Older EE content? It's been a LONG time since I've ran a first-life toon, so I can't say from personal experience, but I strongly suspect that there's quite a bit of content where a first-life toon can get usable DCs, and where each additional point of DC makes a difference. Without giving up the option to Light-nuke.

But I'm not saying Light-nuke-only-types are bad or ineffective, or that everyone should be a DC-caster. Build and play what you find fun, of course. I just challenged the claim that dumping DCs is stronger offensively, and haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.
Why spend SP to kill something you can kill for free or nearly free? What DC spell is there that can one shot as many things for 30 mana as energy burst? I'm not saying DC casting it not great once you get there, but it is a long path to build it up.

If you are in content easy enough that a first life was going to get the DC to instakill something... boulder toss was going to do the same thing for zero mana.

They are not set in stone. I can twist in whatever I need to depending on what I'm running.

DCs...survival...damage...spell pen...whatever.
And I think the twists are the #1 spot where "dumping DCs" for direct damage SLAs provide a measurable increase in offense. Those three twist slots can give you energy burst, boulder toss and wild shot. Unless your DCs are sky high, I think that is better offense than what the DCs offer. The numbers are documented in my NovaSoul link in my sig.

AtomicMew
06-25-2013, 12:57 PM
I know what I done, and don't have to prove anything to you. You might notice I never even made some claim about any specific build being better than or worse than your little Jug build. I certainly notice you don't ever provide the link to the proof of all the amazing things you've done, after coming to the FvS forum to dis FvS, even though you're the one so set on proving which build is better than the other.

You're the one coming on to the FvS forum with the sarcasm and insults and snide remarks and holier-than-thou ****.



If you want to actually convince anyone of anything, A) show YOUR work, and B), stop being such a jerk. But of course, I suspect you're just trolling and waving your e-peen, so I don't actually expect to see any helpful, mature responses out of you.


Look in the achievement forum. You have maybe half a dozen arcanes soloing EE GH, one guy even soloed EE FOT on Lammania (without using certain bugs). And there are a bunch of AAs soloing tons of hard content too.

You have a handful of divines in the achievement section soloing some mediocre EEs, but as far as I'm aware, no divine has successfully soloed EE Tor with dragons or FoT. And if they have it's obviously a much more amazing achievement due to lower DPS. Have you done any of these things on a FvS? Personally, I've soloed every 6 man EE since MOTU and FoT on EN.

I don't need to prove which build is better; you just need to open your eyes. My main was a completionist FvS for a very long time. Until you can show or even just claim a divine being able to perform at the same level as other builds, it's axiomatic that divines are currently not as good!

SirValentine
06-25-2013, 01:34 PM
I don't need to prove which build is better...


Really? Since you come here with the disparaging remarks about how much the OP's build sucks, and then about how every FvS sucks, if anyone needs to prove anything, it's you. Or go just away, since you're not contributing anything useful to the discussion. Though I expect you'll just keep throwing baseless insults around at people you don't think are as uber as you.



Until you can show or even just claim a divine being able to perform at the same level as other builds, it's axiomatic that divines are currently not as good!


Oh, now you're backing way, WAY off, I see. What happened to "worthless" and "gimp" and "simply not good"? Now it's just not *AS* good! Larry Page is currently not AS rich as Bill Gates, either.

I said in the beginning that I think your percentile-versus-other-builds definitions were silly. And still do. You are the one who cares about trying to measure different builds against each other. I don't.

Can I run stuff and get it done? Yes. Can lots of other folks, too, on lots of different builds? Yes. Could the OP's build? Maybe, sure.

Ancient
06-25-2013, 03:26 PM
Really? Since you come here with the disparaging remarks about how much the OP's build sucks, and then about how every FvS sucks, if anyone needs to prove anything, it's you. Or go just away, since you're not contributing anything useful to the discussion. Though I expect you'll just keep throwing baseless insults around at people you don't think are as uber as you.

For a second time, please cut it out. AM provided the list of what he/she considers the top builds, as well as a list of achievements to test competitor builds. That IS useful information to me. You on the other hand, are posting responses that do nothing but insult another rather than answer specific questions such as...

Do you still think that a first life toon is better served on offense by using twists to increase DCs rather than for direct damage SLAs.

I'll agree AM comes across as a little rude... but your quote above does too.

SirValentine
06-25-2013, 03:55 PM
Do you still think that a first life toon is better served on offense by using twists to increase DCs rather than for direct damage SLAs.


I think ANY toon is better served by swapping super-easy-to-swap things like gear and twists on a case-by-base basis.

Edit: so, yes, in some cases, no in others.



I'll agree AM comes across as a little rude... but your quote above does too.


A little, eh?

If I have been rude to YOU, or the OP, or anyone who responded to HELP the OP rather than belittle them, I apologize.

And so you noticed me being rude BACK to him, yup, sure enough. Guilty as charged.

Ancient
06-25-2013, 04:09 PM
I think ANY toon is better served by swapping super-easy-to-swap things like gear and twists on a case-by-base basis.
I can't disagree with that.

And I can respect the rest of your post. I also have an urge to bear paw bullies and rude people. Trying to work on that myself. My apologies as well if I was heavy handed in how I handled that.

AtomicMew
06-26-2013, 02:05 PM
Oh, now you're backing way, WAY off, I see. What happened to "worthless" and "gimp" and "simply not good"? Now it's just not *AS* good! Larry Page is currently not AS rich as Bill Gates, either.

Can I run stuff and get it done? Yes. Can lots of other folks, too, on lots of different builds? Yes. Could the OP's build? Maybe, sure.

"Not as good" doesn't mean that a thing is only slightly worse. For example, I am "not as rich as bill gates." In fact, I have significantly less money than bill gates. The same comparison goes with divines in the current meta game. Divines are significantly worse than the most powerful current builds. I know that lots of builds are capable of completing challenging content, but soloing the hardest content is different beast, especially if you're looking to complete in a timely manner.

The easiest examples I can think of are EE Tor and FoT. In EE Tor, you'd be very hard pressed in blue dragon because of the fast trap damage ramp and associated DPS requirement. A high DPS melee divine with evasion/60 reflex in FOTW may be able to do it, but this build is not it. Caster FvS generally do not have enough DPS, and even with evasion you'll eventually die (yes, even with stacked absorb).

In FoT you have a red name boss with massive HP. So while I can see a divine doing this raid, it's going to take a lot lot longer.

And in fact, this is pretty much reflected in the achievement section. I don't see a single divine that has soloed either of these quests. And even if someone posted an achievement tomorrow, there are still dozens of other builds that have done it sooner and do it faster.

Taarakhan
07-13-2013, 12:32 AM
"Not as good" doesn't mean that a thing is only slightly worse. For example, I am "not as rich as bill gates." In fact, I have significantly less money than bill gates. The same comparison goes with divines in the current meta game. Divines are significantly worse than the most powerful current builds...

I was considering re-investing in this game. You've helped me make up my mind -- I'll move on. Thanks for helping with the decision-making process, and enjoy your elitist rhetoric for as long as the ride will last.

It seems pretty sad that a game with so many character build choices and customizations is once again limited by the acceptance of a handful of "optimum" builds by the community.

gummolo
07-13-2013, 04:29 AM
If you can wait a bit to build your toon, what about trying this one:

Purple Dragon Knight 17 FvS 2 Pal 1 Ftr

Con and Cha maxed, level up on cha. That build uses cha for damage with an Esos and doble that damage with the new Divine Might from Pal.

Also you are getting a lot Sp going cha based and godly saves too.

Feat: PA, cleave, great cleave, tough, emp, max, quicken, ic: slash. Epic feat: etough, OC

You're welcome

unbongwah
07-13-2013, 12:09 PM
I was considering re-investing in this game. You've helped me make up my mind -- I'll move on. Thanks for helping with the decision-making process, and enjoy your elitist rhetoric for as long as the ride will last.

It seems pretty sad that a game with so many character build choices and customizations is once again limited by the acceptance of a handful of "optimum" builds by the community.
You realize that folks are talking about minmaxing for the hardest content, right? And minmaxing has always been its own mini-game, in a way. I mean, move on if you want, but there is life outside of EEs, despite what the more OCD players might tell you... ;)

AtomicMew
07-13-2013, 02:35 PM
I was considering re-investing in this game. You've helped me make up my mind -- I'll move on. Thanks for helping with the decision-making process, and enjoy your elitist rhetoric for as long as the ride will last.

It seems pretty sad that a game with so many character build choices and customizations is once again limited by the acceptance of a handful of "optimum" builds by the community.

Great! Glad I could help. The last thing this community needs is another carebear informing the game direction. One need only look at the current state to realize how much damage fanboys and casuals alike have done by praising poor decisions.

I wish you look in whatever greener pastures you can find, whether it's candy crush or plants vs zombies.

Taarakhan
07-14-2013, 01:51 AM
...whether it's candy crush or plants vs zombies.Do you even realize that's the exact gaming environment you're encouraging? That games are becoming face-roll with practically no individuality of characters? Why should they bother if there's only a handful of min-max builds in the end? Just toss in a handful of cookie cutters and call it good...

I'll stick with Eve Online -- there are still meaningful choices there. And Rift seems to have intelligent debates about their choices in a highly configurable build environment. They just got my subscription, too.

Enjoy living your troll life under the DDO bridge while it's still there.

RTFM
07-14-2013, 07:15 AM
I have a 2nd life FVS. All I do with him is heal raids and the occasional other epic content if bored. I run him in Shiradi constantly, with whirling wrists x3, pin, ottos, double rainbow, healing spring. I twist in Avenging Light, Boulder Toss and Brace for Impact. I have healed EE FOTS this setup, and solo healed EH FOTs. First, I like the build a lot because:

1. I really don't like being a "healing stick" standing there not able to defend myself, CC or take care of trash if needed.

2. Go grind out a "spell touched" thrower or two or three from Eveningstar, and your FVS in Sharadi is all of the sudden dealing some interesting damage in combination with your double rainbow Blade Barriers, Comet Fall, Holy Smite, etc.. It is not a Barb or a Shiradi Wiz, but it is dealing some nice damage. Pin and Ottos means you can selectively crowd control which is nice for EE GH stuff like TOR and POP. Your Blade barriers can take care of a LOT of trash in FOT when you are in Shiradi. Healing Spring can save you a TON of SP that you can use on other things.

3. You have a spell touched thrower, avenging light, boulder toss. You are no Monkcher but you do deal a decent amount of ranged damage. And all of that damage is pretty much "free" SP.

Gear: Well grind out a blue helm, blue robe or docent (take to tier III for the major arcane lore which is very nice), Gauntlets of Immortality, Jeweled Cloak, EE Shamatic Fetish ( I was using the EN version for a long time actually just upgraded), an EE Bullwurk Shield (can slot with fire, force for shiradi procs). Have not gotten the twilight on this toon but would probably never use it anyway since I am throwing all the time.

Build: I built the toon for lvling and went WIS/CON/ then STR heavy...and dumped CHA and went HELF FTR dillantte. If I get a chance to LR I will dump STR, go WIS/CON/CHA heavy, HELF Pali Dillante, with whatever I can afford into DEX for throwing to-hit bonus. Feats were pretty standard FVS evoker stuff + epic toughness, nothing special.

It is a really fun build to play. Can heal/buff party adequately on EE. On EH or EN content you just play as a pure evoker its a lot of fun.

AtomicMew
07-14-2013, 05:23 PM
Do you even realize that's the exact gaming environment you're encouraging? That games are becoming face-roll with practically no individuality of characters? Why should they bother if there's only a handful of min-max builds in the end? Just toss in a handful of cookie cutters and call it good...

I'll stick with Eve Online -- there are still meaningful choices there. And Rift seems to have intelligent debates about their choices in a highly configurable build environment. They just got my subscription, too.

Enjoy living your troll life under the DDO bridge while it's still there.

Are you seriously looking down on others from the high pedastal of Eve online? LOL you just made my day. Honestly, thank you.