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View Full Version : Shapeshifting: more drawbacks, fewer benefits



SealedInSong
06-13-2013, 09:33 PM
We all know that shapeshifting has many problems, including:


being mathematically poorer DPS as a result of an inability to use Lay Waste and Momentum
can't benefit from full offhand bonuses of unarmed
can't get as many hits as TWF
it's clunky/esoteric, with most people not understanding the main and off hand mechanics of shapeshifting
as far as I know, does not benefit from increased dice weight of epic weapons; winter wolf is locked in at [1d10] and dire bear is locked in at [1d12]
shapeshifted "attacks" are ACTUALLY spells, so they use a bit of mana (okay) and cannot be used while raged (not okay)
crit profile on wolves at least is good (17-20x3 with IC: bludgeon) but at this point cannot be increased in any way (bear crit profile is worse at [20x3]
ToD burst effects only work when the druid equips handwraps despite the fact that they are technically fighting unarmed when shapeshifted
dire bear attack sequences are dreadfully slow and prone to missing on account of their "rearing" animation
dire bears do get the perks of being a druid but their AC bonus and DPS are truly negligible compared to other dedicated tank types, rendering them far less useful as hybrid caster/melee and basically useless as tanks

Doublestrike can be higher relatively but the aforementioned problems render the doublestrike feature not very attractive.

I do like my bear and wolf builds. I do play them because I find the flavor fun.

I do not think they are as competitive as they should be by a long shot, particularly the dire bear form.

In the next post, I'll start compiling suggestions made from players on how to improve the forms. Many good suggestions have been made, but I didn't see any that stood out to me in the enhancement alpha except the "Four Good Legs" enhancement which made shapeshifted animal forms resistant/immune? to knockdown.

SealedInSong
06-13-2013, 09:35 PM
Reserved

ZeebaNeighba
06-13-2013, 09:44 PM
We all know that shapeshifting has many problems, including:


it's clunky/esoteric, with most people not understanding the main and off hand mechanics of shapeshifting
shapeshifted "attacks" are ACTUALLY spells, so they use a bit of mana (okay) and cannot be used while raged (not okay)


I don't get how the weapon effects apply to animal forms. An explanation would be cool (and to put it in the game).

Don't forget the special animal attacks also use a spell slot.

Munkenmo
06-13-2013, 10:38 PM
ToD burst effects only work when the druid equips handwraps despite the fact that they are technically fighting unarmed when shapeshifted


This is incorrect.

I've been doing plenty of TR's recently with a holy burst ring and greensteel / alchemical kama's / shortswords.
The holy burst from the ring has been procing as expected.

Munkenmo
06-13-2013, 10:42 PM
I don't get how the weapon effects apply to animal forms. An explanation would be cool (and to put it in the game).

Don't forget the special animal attacks also use a spell slot.

In your main hand all effects work like you'd expect.
In your secondary hand only passive effects / defensive guards work. (eg. stunning, conc op, heal amp, seeker etc.) offensive ones like shocking burst or lightning strike won't do a thing.

I'm getting quite good mileage out of a greensteel heal amp con op kama. :D

Delacroix21
06-13-2013, 10:49 PM
This needs to be addressed and i would love to hear a Dev post stating that they are looking at overhauling the druid (and not through enhancements).

Here is what is needed:
1. Remove the increased spell cool downs in animal form, clerics and fvs don't have them when using an epic SOS
2. Use dex or str for animal special attacks instead of wisdom, also add druid ?evel bonuses to DCs like monk moves
3. Wolf form need a base 20-30% movement speed, current 15% is enhancement bonus which does not stack with striding (making it worthless)
4. Bear form needs a bigger ac/hp boost, Druids can't wear plate and have less ac in tank mode
5. Bear form drop the standing attack and slightly increase speed, its painfully slow
6. New druid animal capstone: evasion
7. Give Druids a base 18% double strike in animal forms and remove the feats, these feat (all 3) are not a bonus to animal Druids, but are required to be even remotely viable.

AylinIsAwesome
06-14-2013, 01:29 AM
7. Give Druids a base 18% double strike in animal forms and remove the feats, these feat (all 3) are not a bonus to animal Druids, but are required to be even remotely viable.

I disagree here. One could easily say, "Give Rogues/Fighters/FvS/etc a base 80% to hit with offhand attacks and remove the TWF feats, these feats (all 3) are not a bonus to TWF melee, but are required to be even remotely viable".

However, I would like it if the doublestrike from the feats was increased, perhaps to 8%.

Charononus
06-14-2013, 02:44 AM
We all know that shapeshifting has many problems, including:


being mathematically poorer DPS as a result of an inability to use Lay Waste and Momentum
can't benefit from full offhand bonuses of unarmed
can't get as many hits as TWF
it's clunky/esoteric, with most people not understanding the main and off hand mechanics of shapeshifting
as far as I know, does not benefit from increased dice weight of epic weapons; winter wolf is locked in at [1d10] and dire bear is locked in at [1d12]
shapeshifted "attacks" are ACTUALLY spells, so they use a bit of mana (okay) and cannot be used while raged (not okay)
crit profile on wolves at least is good (17-20x3 with IC: bludgeon) but at this point cannot be increased in any way (bear crit profile is worse at [20x3]
ToD burst effects only work when the druid equips handwraps despite the fact that they are technically fighting unarmed when shapeshifted
dire bear attack sequences are dreadfully slow and prone to missing on account of their "rearing" animation
dire bears do get the perks of being a druid but their AC bonus and DPS are truly negligible compared to other dedicated tank types, rendering them far less useful as hybrid caster/melee and basically useless as tanks

Doublestrike can be higher relatively but the aforementioned problems render the doublestrike feature not very attractive.

I do like my bear and wolf builds. I do play them because I find the flavor fun.

I do not think they are as competitive as they should be by a long shot, particularly the dire bear form.

In the next post, I'll start compiling suggestions made from players on how to improve the forms. Many good suggestions have been made, but I didn't see any that stood out to me in the enhancement alpha except the "Four Good Legs" enhancement which made shapeshifted animal forms resistant/immune? to knockdown.

Agreed on most, pure druids are pretty weak at melee, the only way to do good dps at cap is a heavy monk splash.


This needs to be addressed and i would love to hear a Dev post stating that they are looking at overhauling the druid (and not through enhancements).

Here is what is needed:
1. Remove the increased spell cool downs in animal form, clerics and fvs don't have them when using an epic SOS
2. Use dex or str for animal special attacks instead of wisdom, also add druid ?evel bonuses to DCs like monk moves
3. Wolf form need a base 20-30% movement speed, current 15% is enhancement bonus which does not stack with striding (making it worthless)
4. Bear form needs a bigger ac/hp boost, Druids can't wear plate and have less ac in tank mode
5. Bear form drop the standing attack and slightly increase speed, its painfully slow
6. New druid animal capstone: evasion
7. Give Druids a base 18% double strike in animal forms and remove the feats, these feat (all 3) are not a bonus to animal Druids, but are required to be even remotely viable.
2. Make it an either or like some ed abilities are. At the moment the wisdom bonuses synergize well with monk splashs with the wisdom for dc aspect. Adding a level bonus would definately help though.
7. see below


I disagree here. One could easily say, "Give Rogues/Fighters/FvS/etc a base 80% to hit with offhand attacks and remove the TWF feats, these feats (all 3) are not a bonus to TWF melee, but are required to be even remotely viable".

However, I would like it if the doublestrike from the feats was increased, perhaps to 8%.

This makes good sense to me.

SealedInSong
06-14-2013, 03:02 AM
[/LIST]

This is incorrect.

I've been doing plenty of TR's recently with a holy burst ring and greensteel / alchemical kama's / shortswords.
The holy burst from the ring has been procing as expected.

I was just testing this today and that was not my experience. I'll try again with screenshots so someone can explain if I'm missing something. Thanks -Enmo.

Cerret
06-14-2013, 03:17 AM
My suggestions based on Alpha preview:

Each Core Enhancement grants a 1% Primal bonus to doublestrike that works in all forms (animal, elemental, normal). This encourages multi-classing and spending on feats other than Natural Fighting x3.

Each Core Enhancement grants animal-form spells as SLAs with reduced SP cost and short cooldowns. So Takedown/Maul (1st); Pack Presence/Roar (3rd); Baiting Bite/Shred (6th); Frost Bite/Tremor (12th); Jaws of Winter/Relentless Onslaught (18th).

Nature Warrior's capstone grants: any Wolf-form 30% striding (enhancement bonus), Winter Wolf gets Cold Resistance 30.
any Bear form 10% exceptional fortification, with Dire Bear getting Bodyfeeder weapon property for animal-form attacks.

Charononus
06-14-2013, 03:30 AM
My suggestions based on Alpha preview:

Each Core Enhancement grants a 1% Primal bonus to doublestrike that works in all forms (animal, elemental, normal). This encourages multi-classing and spending on feats other than Natural Fighting x3.

Each Core Enhancement grants animal-form spells as SLAs with reduced SP cost and short cooldowns. So Takedown/Maul (1st); Pack Presence/Roar (3rd); Baiting Bite/Shred (6th); Frost Bite/Tremor (12th); Jaws of Winter/Relentless Onslaught (18th).

Nature Warrior's capstone grants: any Wolf-form 30% striding (enhancement bonus), Winter Wolf gets Cold Resistance 30.
any Bear form 10% exceptional fortification, with Dire Bear getting Bodyfeeder weapon property for animal-form attacks.

each point needs to give devotion not double strike as we're losing all spell power lines in all classes. Melee druids toss heals just as much as casters if not more so since they're in the middle of it and will need to heal themselves more.

AylinIsAwesome
06-14-2013, 03:49 AM
each point needs to give devotion not double strike as we're losing all spell power lines in all classes. Melee druids toss heals just as much as casters if not more so since they're in the middle of it and will need to heal themselves more.

Devotion in the Nature's Warrior tree would make me so happy.

Cerret
06-14-2013, 04:04 AM
each point needs to give devotion not double strike as we're losing all spell power lines in all classes. Melee druids toss heals just as much as casters if not more so since they're in the middle of it and will need to heal themselves more.

It is each Core Enhancement that grants 1% Primal bonus to double strike (at 3rd, 6th, 12th, 18th, 20th; totals 5%), not each AP. Currently, each AP grants 1 HP. Perhaps each Core Enhancement should grant 1% Healing Amplification instead. Actually, I would prefer Healing Amplification.

Also, after some thought, I think the capstone should grant each wolf form 30% striding + Bodyfeeder weapon property, each bear form get 10% exceptional fortification and Vampirism weapon property. Dire Bear gets Vicious weapon property; Winter Wolf gets Cold Resistance 30. Note that this is in addition to what the capstone normally grants (+2d6 SA for wolf, +10 PRR for bear).

RudedawCDN
06-14-2013, 12:59 PM
I am sure I'm probably wrong as I have only just started playing the game.

1 week in and I am a lvl 15 Druid using a Stave of the Seer.

From my experience Animal Forms doesn't even come close to the dps I can do with my staff.

I've been using the staff since lvl 8 and it still seems to me to be my dps best option - am I missing something?

Missing_Minds
06-14-2013, 01:24 PM
shapeshifted "attacks" are ACTUALLY spells, so they use a bit of mana (okay) and cannot be used while raged (not okay)
Actually they are "almost" spells.

While I'm pretty certain anti-magic of beholders can block the attacks, they most certainly do not count as spells for Shiradi casting.

Also,
Wolf forms really should increase base movement speed. It does not.
Wolf forms should get a bonus against being knocked down due to the fact they have more than 2 legs. This is Turbine logic here. They do not get any such bonus.

SerPounce
06-16-2013, 11:53 PM
Yup, animal forms are pretty awful right now. Pure druid is broken do to a lack of feats and the broken die step mechanics for non-wraps(you'll never get more than 1d10, while others are getting say 7.5d6 from skybreaker).

Monk splash druids using handwraps are broken because they so few attacks compared to a non-shapeshifted druid (18% doublestrike vs. 80% doublestrike; a much bigger dps impact then 1d6 -> 1d10). If you use kamas you're back to the broken die step, so there's no getting any use out of your off-hand. On top of that your casting is gimped with x2.5 cooldowns without the capstone.

Bear is so broken that it's probably irredeemable, wolf could maybe be fixed if they made +w from weapons apply in form and increased natural fighting double strike to 2 feats for 10% each (or one feat for 15%). Or just ditch the whole "you only use your main hand" thing and made all animal form druids 2WF, and make those feats work. Do away with the cooldown increase altogether and give the capstone another 10% doublestrike or +2 wisdom to compensate.

Pretty sad they got left in such a broken state. I wish they fixed druid instead of making one of the new Iconics.

unbongwah
06-17-2013, 02:49 PM
Monk splash druids using handwraps are broken because they so few attacks compared to a non-shapeshifted druid (18% doublestrike vs. 80% doublestrike; a much bigger dps impact then 1d6 -> 1d10).
You're forgetting that wolves get +30% base atk speed, which AFAIK stacks with Haste; and that wolf druids will usually have ISM as well for 26% doublestrike total. My back-of-cocktail-napkin calcs suggest a wolf should get ~80% of the strikes of a pure monk; the better crit profile + 6d6 sneak atks help close the DPS gap.

That said, it's the +[W] bonuses which really seem to hamper wolf DPS in epics; hermespan has some good build advice (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/411428-Fenris-Build(melee-specialized-wolf-druid)).

I've only just hit epics with my pure druid, so my opinion may change; but so far I'm still having fun as a shapeshifter. No, I don't have the melee DPS of a barb; but why would I expect to? I can bring a lot more to the table than a pure barb can: Earthquake, HoTs, DoTs, buffs, etc. If I can do all that and respectable SA-based DPS, I'm cool with that. As I said earlier, if you're treating your wolf druid as a pure melee build, you're doing it wrong (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418517-Pure-Melee-Druid-Viable?p=5022586&viewfull=1#post5022586).

But bear form flat-out sucks. :mad: I was hoping to make a decent guard-based caster tank; at best I'm a subpar caster with modest survivability bonuses (+4 CON, +15% AC, +21 PRR) & Tremor.

SerPounce
06-17-2013, 04:19 PM
You're forgetting that wolves get +30% base atk speed, which AFAIK stacks with Haste; and that wolf druids will usually have ISM as well for 26% doublestrike total. My back-of-cocktail-napkin calcs suggest a wolf should get ~80% of the strikes of a pure monk; the better crit profile + 6d6 sneak atks help close the DPS gap.

I was talking about a centered monk splash build there so ISM isn't relevant (I was discussing that because being centered and using wraps is the only way to avoid the +w issue). Monk attack speed is also 10% over "normal" also. So assuming the 30% faster wolf attack speed is accurate (has anyone actually tested this? it sure doesn't feel 30% faster...) you've got 1.1 * 1.8 = 1.98 vs. 1.3 * 1.18 = 1.53 for a centered build, or 1.3 * 1.26 = 1.63 for a S&B build that suffers from a lack of +w. Sneak attack is nice, but for all that sneak attack you loose stunning fist and +w which is even more DPS most of the time. You're also talking about a 6 feat melee form at that point (NFx3, IC:Bludg, SM&ISM), that"s a steep price on a pure druid.

Edit: I tried to make a table to show the basic options, but this forum just won't display it properly :(

Wolf Druid 20 18/2 monk wolf 18/2 monk elemental
Attack speed 1.3 * 1.26 =1.63 1.3 * 1.181.53 1.1 * 1.8=1.98
Sneak attack* 4d6 2d6 0
melee feats 6/9 5/11 4/11 (IC optional)
Cooldowns 1.5 2.5 1
+w bug? bugged not bugged not bugged


*anyone can take the enhancements

I've only just hit epics with my pure druid, so my opinion may change; but so far I'm still having fun as a shapeshifter. No, I don't have the melee DPS of a barb; but why would I expect to? I can bring a lot more to the table than a pure barb can: Earthquake, HoTs, DoTs, buffs, etc. If I can do all that and respectable SA-based DPS, I'm cool with that. you're doing it wrong (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418517-Pure-Melee-Druid-Viable?p=5022586&viewfull=1#post5022586).

But bear form flat-out sucks. :mad: I was hoping to make a decent guard-based caster tank; at best I'm a subpar caster with modest survivability bonuses (+4 CON, +15% AC, +21 PRR) & Tremor.

What's your earthquake DC? If it's not at least 50+ it's not very useful in EE (the only difficulty where CC is relevant, in EH you're always better off with just MOAR DPS). Earthquake is a great spell, but you have to spec for casting to make it work What are your wolf attack DCs? reflex should be 50+, will 55+, for 60+ just to start be be relevant.

DoTs are just more DPS... it's not a separate thing that you're "bringing to the table"

HoT is nice, but it's also something literally everyone has now with cocoon

And "No, I don't have the melee DPS of a barb; but why would I expect to?" is a ridiculous straw man. No one is saying a druid should have barb or Kensai DPS, but it should be comparable to a melee FVS or Cleric, and it isn't. The point is you'd be better off shifting to elemental and picking up a skybreaker, cleaver, esos, EAG or whatever. Then you could run body of the sun and not have gimped cooldowns also.

unbongwah
06-17-2013, 05:14 PM
What's your earthquake DC? If it's not at least 50+ it's not very useful in EE (the only difficulty where CC is relevant, in EH you're always better off with just MOAR DPS). Earthquake is a great spell, but you have to spec for casting to make it work What are your wolf attack DCs? reflex should be 50+, will 55+, for 60+ just to start be be relevant.
Well, now aren't we getting into the problems with DC-based EE casting in general? Isn't that why we have so many Shiradi-based casters running around these days; because it's more efficient to rely on random procs than beating DCs?

SerPounce
06-17-2013, 05:29 PM
Well, now aren't we getting into the problems with DC-based EE casting in general? Isn't that why we have so many Shiradi-based casters running around these days; because it's more efficient to rely on random procs than beating DCs?

To an extent, but druids don't have anything like chain missiles to really take advantage of Shiradi so it's not as relevant an option. And if your DCs aren't up to snuff, then why not go STR based? And if you're STR based why be a druid at all?

But that's not the whole story with EQ anyway. As a reflex save spell it's much more reasonable to get a workable EE DC (for non-rogue mobs at least). But you need to spend feats (that a melee wolf won't have) on it and take advantage of the -4 reflex debuff from mantle of the icy soul (no equivalent debuff for wolves).

Charononus
06-17-2013, 08:50 PM
To an extent, but druids don't have anything like chain missiles to really take advantage of Shiradi so it's not as relevant an option. And if your DCs aren't up to snuff, then why not go STR based? And if you're STR based why be a druid at all?

But that's not the whole story with EQ anyway. As a reflex save spell it's much more reasonable to get a workable EE DC (for non-rogue mobs at least). But you need to spend feats (that a melee wolf won't have) on it and take advantage of the -4 reflex debuff from mantle of the icy soul (no equivalent debuff for wolves).

True enough but, for a wolf build you could go 9/9/2 druid monk fighter. With ed's in gmof you'd end up with 5.75[1d10] 17-18 x3, 19-20x4. Stunning fist of 45-47 I believe which while not great isn't horrible, ein, knockdown immunity, dw, fom, quickend vigor cure crit and twist in cocoon. 18% doublestrike from feats and a doublstrike item leaves you with 24% doublestrike. You'd also be able to get a 40-50 reflex save and improved evasion as well as scrollable fire shields. This would be with a 16 wis and 16 starting str with level ups in str. You'd also be able to switch between power attack and precision as the situation called for. Also every class can take advantage of solid fog clickies for -5 to reflex saves.

I've stopped playing because of the etr proposal but this was my project when that was released to the forums, only got him to 16, but that was the numbers and theory behind it.

Charononus
06-17-2013, 08:52 PM
edit* double post these forums really suck.

SerPounce
06-17-2013, 09:38 PM
True enough but, for a wolf build you could go 9/9/2 druid monk fighter. With ed's in gmof you'd end up with 5.75[1d10] 17-18 x3, 19-20x4. Stunning fist of 45-47 I believe which while not great isn't horrible, ein, knockdown immunity, dw, fom, quickend vigor cure crit and twist in cocoon. 18% doublestrike from feats and a doublstrike item leaves you with 24% doublestrike. You'd also be able to get a 40-50 reflex save and improved evasion as well as scrollable fire shields. This would be with a 16 wis and 16 starting str with level ups in str. You'd also be able to switch between power attack and precision as the situation called for. Also every class can take advantage of solid fog clickies for -5 to reflex saves.

I've stopped playing because of the etr proposal but this was my project when that was released to the forums, only got him to 16, but that was the numbers and theory behind it.


I agree that to if there is a way to make a wolf forum druid EE viable it's probably with a deep "splash." DC 45-7 stunning fist is gawd awful, but I'm sure you could actually get it much higher than that: 10 +12 (lvls) +20 (wisdom) + 10 (gear) +5 (exceptional gear) +6 (legendary tactics twist) = 63. Of course at that point you really do need to compare it to a pure melee, probably a monk in this case. My gut is that it's going to favor the monk (more base damage, more attacks/min, better saves, faster movement speed, T4 stances, T2/3 PrEs, etc)

RudedawCDN
06-18-2013, 10:20 AM
No one has replied to my comment about Stave of the Seer and I am curious what more experienced Druid's opinions are who have compared dps between wolf form and the stave.

I still use the stave at 20 because it works off my wisdom.

So I feel I get 2 key benefits; maxxed wisdom and a melee dps based off of wisdom instead of strength.

Thoughts?

Lonnbeimnech
06-18-2013, 10:40 AM
No one has replied to my comment about Stave of the Seer and I am curious what more experienced Druid's opinions are who have compared dps between wolf form and the stave.

I still use the stave at 20 because it works off my wisdom.

So I feel I get 2 key benefits; maxxed wisdom and a melee dps based off of wisdom instead of strength.

Thoughts?

You know how with 2 handed weapons, str mod to damage is 150%? Well that's str. A 2 handed weapon using dex or wis or int will only add 100%.

So it will work, kinda, and it will probably hit higher than any other option you have as a wis based str dumped build, esp since its 1.5[2d6] and its wood, so with shillelagh thats 2.5[2d6] at level 8...so not bad, but you wont be doing the same damage as a str build with a str based weapon.

Superhanns
06-18-2013, 11:52 AM
Those animal forms should be improved, at the same time nerf earthquake as its completely op in EE let alone lesser content

Charononus
06-18-2013, 11:59 AM
No one has replied to my comment about Stave of the Seer and I am curious what more experienced Druid's opinions are who have compared dps between wolf form and the stave.

I still use the stave at 20 because it works off my wisdom.

So I feel I get 2 key benefits; maxxed wisdom and a melee dps based off of wisdom instead of strength.

Thoughts?

possible wis + at level 20

18 base + 3 class enhancements + 1 racial (human) +7 item + 2 insightful +1 exceptional = 32 wis so + 11 modifier (not factoring tomes ship buffs ext because you could go str for those as well and it makes no difference.

possible str + at level 20

18 base + 2 class +1 racial (human) +7 item + 2 insightful + 1 exceptional +4 alchemical(tensor scroll, could happen) + 5 primal scream + 4 animal growth = 44 so +17 modifier

So str based you beat the stave of the seer by +5 damage even though this ignores level ups as they'd probably be the same. Ignoring the less likely tensors you still beat the stave by +3. THF is definately slower than wolf attack rate as well. The only way the stave makes sense is as a melee option for a str dumped caster druid, but assuming no fire immunity flame blade probably beats this option out as well.

Charononus
06-18-2013, 12:03 PM
I agree that to if there is a way to make a wolf forum druid EE viable it's probably with a deep "splash." DC 45-7 stunning fist is gawd awful, but I'm sure you could actually get it much higher than that: 10 +12 (lvls) +20 (wisdom) + 10 (gear) +5 (exceptional gear) +6 (legendary tactics twist) = 63. Of course at that point you really do need to compare it to a pure melee, probably a monk in this case. My gut is that it's going to favor the monk (more base damage, more attacks/min, better saves, faster movement speed, T4 stances, T2/3 PrEs, etc)

looking back I think I screwed up my stunning fist math and you're right it should be higher but I disagree with the +20 for a wis mod. First life with a starting 16 and level ups in str I don't see how you're getting to a standing wis of 50. You also forgot +3 I think it is for being in gmof.

SerPounce
06-18-2013, 01:34 PM
looking back I think I screwed up my stunning fist math and you're right it should be higher but I disagree with the +20 for a wis mod. First life with a starting 16 and level ups in str I don't see how you're getting to a standing wis of 50. You also forgot +3 I think it is for being in gmof.

Yeah for sure. I was thinking WIS based, for 16 starting WIS with lvl ups in STR your talking at least 8 less WIS, probably more due to other decisions, so probably more like +12 there. Do the GMoF innates stack with legendary tactics?

I see why you'd go STR based with the winter wolf crit profile, but your stunning fist is going to be mediocre for EE. I know for myself if I'm going to run around with the kind of low PRR and modest HP that build would have, I'd want a rock solid stunning fist. Maybe if you had some fighter past lives and could fit in improved sunder SF would be reliable enough.


No one has replied to my comment about Stave of the Seer and I am curious what more experienced Druid's opinions are who have compared dps between wolf form and the stave.

I still use the stave at 20 because it works off my wisdom.

So I feel I get 2 key benefits; maxxed wisdom and a melee dps based off of wisdom instead of strength.

Thoughts?
On top of what everyone else said, your missing out on: weapon mods, wolf attack speed, wolf sneak attack, and wolf special attacks... I don't see how getting your WIS to damage is going to stack up against that. That's going to be what? +10 at the most? Decent weapon mods alone would make up for that (holy of bleeding is +10.5).

Charononus
06-18-2013, 05:24 PM
Yeah for sure. I was thinking WIS based, for 16 starting WIS with lvl ups in STR your talking at least 8 less WIS, probably more due to other decisions, so probably more like +12 there. Do the GMoF innates stack with legendary tactics?

I see why you'd go STR based with the winter wolf crit profile, but your stunning fist is going to be mediocre for EE. I know for myself if I'm going to run around with the kind of low PRR and modest HP that build would have, I'd want a rock solid stunning fist. Maybe if you had some fighter past lives and could fit in improved sunder SF would be reliable enough.


Oh no doubt, and my first thoughts were to go that way. I just wanted to illustrate the concepts. The toon that I was working on was that way as a test on a 32 pt first lifer. If I went that way on a non-first life toon that had more than +2 tomes I would probably do something like 18 starting str +4 tome (have never lucked out on a +5 yet on any toon) and with one level up in str for the 23 str needed for oc with the rest in wisdom for better stunning dcs. I just tend to use first life toons for test builds before I go thru a tr life with something that may or may not end up as a fun experience due to the third life exp curve.

edit
90% sure the innate abilities stack with legendary tactics.

Delacroix21
06-20-2013, 02:38 AM
I disagree here. One could easily say, "Give Rogues/Fighters/FvS/etc a base 80% to hit with offhand attacks and remove the TWF feats, these feats (all 3) are not a bonus to TWF melee, but are required to be even remotely viable".

However, I would like it if the doublestrike from the feats was increased, perhaps to 8%.

I could stand to have the double strike bonuses increased. As for the TWF reference i feel that those feats are more optional as a character could easily go THF and ignore them, but that is likely true because the THF feats are so weak many ignore them.


In that case: buff doublestrike feats and buff THF feats :)


I hope the Devs continue to watch this thread and strongly consider them. We waited SO LONG for the druid class only to be offered such a weak product. It seems as if the Devs thought the opposite was true and believed the class would be OP and thus nerfed their spell cool downs as a result. How wrong they were.

Irongutz2000
06-20-2013, 06:01 AM
I agree that to if there is a way to make a wolf forum druid EE viable it's probably with a deep "splash." DC 45-7 stunning fist is gawd awful, but I'm sure you could actually get it much higher than that: 10 +12 (lvls) +20 (wisdom) + 10 (gear) +5 (exceptional gear) +6 (legendary tactics twist) = 63. Of course at that point you really do need to compare it to a pure melee, probably a monk in this case. My gut is that it's going to favor the monk (more base damage, more attacks/min, better saves, faster movement speed, T4 stances, T2/3 PrEs, etc)

Um u don't need a DEEP splash to make a good druid. I am running a 17 druid, 2 monk, 1 wizzy. Has a 51 evo dc for earth quake, a 64 stunning fist dc, 24 % doublestrike. And 4.5 to 6.0 W using handwraps.

So I have earthquake, heal and decent dps....I have done many EE's with him and always get the whats ur evo dc or some kind of comment while playing him, heck even have some ppl rolling up druids to try it. I prefer primal avatar though....

SerPounce
06-24-2013, 11:29 PM
Um u don't need a DEEP splash to make a good druid. I am running a 17 druid, 2 monk, 1 wizzy. Has a 51 evo dc for earth quake, a 64 stunning fist dc, 24 % doublestrike. And 4.5 to 6.0 W using handwraps.

So I have earthquake, heal and decent dps....I have done many EE's with him and always get the whats ur evo dc or some kind of comment while playing him, heck even have some ppl rolling up druids to try it. I prefer primal avatar though....

Sure, but why be a wolf rather than an elemental? No 2.5x cooldowns, debuffs from mantle of the icy soul or dps from body of the sun, 80+% doublestrike for better stunning fist, +100% fort (great for EE).

the 2.5x cooldowns alone are kind of a dealbreaker for non-pure wolves in my mind. That's over an 11 second cooldown for heal... 2.5 minutes for storm of vengeance...

It's not druids that are bad, elementals can do well, it's just wolf druids.

Irongutz2000
06-25-2013, 06:00 AM
Sure, but why be a wolf rather than an elemental? No 2.5x cooldowns, debuffs from mantle of the icy soul or dps from body of the sun, 80+% doublestrike for better stunning fist, +100% fort (great for EE).

the 2.5x cooldowns alone are kind of a dealbreaker for non-pure wolves in my mind. That's over an 11 second cooldown for heal... 2.5 minutes for storm of vengeance...

It's not druids that are bad, elementals can do well, it's just wolf druids.

Um first off wolf form give u 17-20 times 3, wraps give u 19-20 times 2. Second off u get snowslide and howl of terror, both great abilities. Thrid is all the sneak attack u gain, I see numbers of 30+ onn mine... combat log is always u sneak attack such and such for 150+ onn a normal hit.

Has anyone tested the dps difference between a good geared wolf and say a twfing druid? I can almost 100% say that the wolf does more dps. As far as the cool downs go......never been a prob yet, each to there own, u wanna play a caster druid that's cool, but don't go hateing onn the wolf u don't understand :P

Soulfurnace
06-25-2013, 06:47 AM
I can almost 100% say that the wolf does more dps.

I... What? o.O

Delacroix21
06-25-2013, 07:44 AM
Dps issues aside, the increased spell cool downs are unwarranted, and it makes no sense that other casters do not suffer from them when using Melee weapons and the like.


Fvs and clerics can use divine power that makes bab equal to that of a fighter, using epic weapons with an expanded crit range and multiplier (better than wolf stance). Even tensors transformation has less of a spell cooldown increase and it does the above with a stackable 4 dex, con, str and 6ac!


The enhancement pass does nothing to address animal form woes, as they are cookie cutter from enhancements on live. Also the save DCs need a strong buff, and if you still want them to use wisdom, then u need to add druid/character levels to the DCs like the monk class. Even then i still believe the DCs will be rather low due to many of them not being effected by items like vertigo etc. I also strongly urge you add character levels over druid levels to DCs, as this will allow these abilities to scale in epic content as well, and you did it for stunning fist.

Irongutz2000
06-25-2013, 03:46 PM
I... What? o.O

Have u tested it? got any numbers to share? I know a regular wolf druid doesn't do great dps. But the handwrap using version with the 4.5 to 6.0 1d10 17 -20 X3 + sneak ataack. Does decent damage or at leat that's what I am seeing in play. I have a barb ,monk ,ranger to compare it to , even though its not top dps its still pretty decent considering u have EQ and heal, among many other abilities.

OverlordOfRats
06-25-2013, 04:01 PM
Title says it all.

Enhancements use bluff and intimidate. Intimidate is a class skill but not bluff.

Soulfurnace
06-25-2013, 07:25 PM
Alright, the crit profiles! 20% to get x3 is equal to 10% to get x5 (assuming the same base damage, which isn't entirely true.. Monk has more from W on wraps) Draw. (Also doesn't include weapon effects, with bursts, blasts, etc. Unless you define equal weapons)

*edit* Forgot attack speeds! Wolf has a 30% (or so I'm told, I don't trust it), whereas a monk has... how much? Never looked that figure up.

Also the 1d10 versus... hm. We'll go with the example before, 4.5W on [1d6]. Monk wins.

You get 4d6 sneak attack damage. Seeming I like the heal spell, and love human (for feats :P) the monk will have no sneak attack. +1 to the wolf.

The doublestrike... Wolf pulls ahead through shield mastery, by 8%. +1 to the wolf.

The offhand, 80%. As it's unarmed, it gains full str bonuses, so it is quite honestly 1.8 attacks. Wolf gets no off-head attacks, thus +1 to the monk.

So, in favour of the wolf; 4d6 sneak attack, 8% doublestrike and a faster attack speed (though, not by a great amount). In favour of the monk, higher damage on wraps (versus wolf's 1d10), and 80% offhand.

Now, I know wolves get specific spells, and I would add them as damage to the wolf, but by that logic, I'd need to add +1 to the monk for being able to use other druid spells more often, wouldn't I?
If so, that renders wolf spells rather moot.

I based it off a monk with the lowest (with 1 monk level) damage die, monk also had OC and was in dreadnought; because let's face it, Dreadnought is fun. I guess it's unfair that I don't include OC or dreadnought (which is just +2 to crit multi on 19-20), but as the OP stated, wolves don't get a changing crit multiplier.

Please, tell me if I've missed anything regarding wolves. I'm not going to tell you not to play one, that they're boring, etc, because fun is fun. I just don't see many bonuses.

Also, sorry that I can't crunch the exact numbers, merely listing who wins each, shall we say, category. If you're more suited to the task, by all means, do it. (And please, post all the workings out, I'm interested to learn, because I have no clue what gear to include for the wolf)

*edit* That's (yet another) text wall so, I'll apologise for a lack of formatting too! ^^

Irongutz2000
06-26-2013, 06:02 AM
Alright, the crit profiles! 20% to get x3 is equal to 10% to get x5 (assuming the same base damage, which isn't entirely true.. Monk has more from W on wraps) Draw. (Also doesn't include weapon effects, with bursts, blasts, etc. Unless you define equal weapons)

*edit* Forgot attack speeds! Wolf has a 30% (or so I'm told, I don't trust it), whereas a monk has... how much? Never looked that figure up.

Also the 1d10 versus... hm. We'll go with the example before, 4.5W on [1d6]. Monk wins.

You get 4d6 sneak attack damage. Seeming I like the heal spell, and love human (for feats :P) the monk will have no sneak attack. +1 to the wolf.

The doublestrike... Wolf pulls ahead through shield mastery, by 8%. +1 to the wolf.

The offhand, 80%. As it's unarmed, it gains full str bonuses, so it is quite honestly 1.8 attacks. Wolf gets no off-head attacks, thus +1 to the monk.

So, in favour of the wolf; 4d6 sneak attack, 8% doublestrike and a faster attack speed (though, not by a great amount). In favour of the monk, higher damage on wraps (versus wolf's 1d10), and 80% offhand.

! ^^

Gonna say it again, maybe someone will read it this time, U can make a wolf have 4.5-6.5 w 1d10 and the max onn my monk is 9.0 w 1d6. The wolf is ahead onn base damage, u have to be a monk splash using wraps though. Never asked ppl to compare 20 druids dps cause I have tested it myself its pretty bad, but the monk mix is pretty decent.

Soulfurnace
06-26-2013, 08:20 AM
-stuff about wraps-
My bad, I missed that.
However, I brought up a TWF unarmed druid build, grabbed its +damage, wrap dice, did some math, got some nice numbers, went to do the same for you, then realised I have absolutely no clue as to what your gear/feats are.
Looking back, it's very funny, at least as far as I can see.
I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I'm honestly curious, who wins the math battle!

As such, I'd be very interested if you could pm me (on forums, of course) anything you have relating to damage; total str (or mod, same thing), what W your wraps are at, anything directly boosting damage and/or sneak attack, etc. I won't promise my math to be 100% correct (or even partially), but I'd like to see the numbers regardless. At the least, they're an indication.
(And if someone more experienced than I would like to go through my workings-out before I share (with Irongutz and/or the forums, depending on what he'd prefer) the results, that'd also be greatly appreciated! If you'd like to volunteer, again, please drop me a message.)

unbongwah
06-26-2013, 08:23 AM
Gonna say it again, maybe someone will read it this time, U can make a wolf have 4.5-6.5 w 1d10 and the max onn my monk is 9.0 w 1d6.
Which EDs & Twists do you use to get the drunk wolf's +[W] that high?

Rusty_Can
06-26-2013, 09:33 AM
Which EDs & Twists do you use to get the drunk wolf's +[W] that high?

WAG:

2 W from monk levels, 2.5 if you go for 12 monk levels
+ 1 W from ML 20 handwraps, higher (+1.5 or +2 W) if you consider some epic wraps
+ 1.5 W from a Dance of Flowers (cheap twist if you are not running in GMoF)
+ 1 W from Dancing with Flames (It requires being in GMoF and in Fire Stance)
+ 0.5 W from Improved PA
+ 0.5 W from Reinforced Fist gear
+ 0.5 W from monk past life, if available

Lonnbeimnech
06-26-2013, 09:35 AM
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Adamantine_Knuckles_%28Level_25%29 is w[3.5]

reinforcing fists w[.5]

dance of flowers w[1.5]

monk past life w[.5]

so 6[1d10]

Lonnbeimnech
06-26-2013, 09:36 AM
WAG:
1 W from Dancing with Flames (expensive twist from GMoF, it requires being in Fire Stance)


tier 5 ability, cant be twisted, unfortunatly

Rusty_Can
06-26-2013, 09:37 AM
tier 5 ability, cant be twisted, unfortunatly

Correct. Fixing *blushes*.

However, still an option if you are running in GMoF.

SerPounce
06-27-2013, 09:49 PM
WAG:

2 W from monk levels, 2.5 if you go for 12 monk levels
+ 1 W from ML 20 handwraps, higher (+1.5 or +2 W) if you consider some epic wraps
+ 1.5 W from a Dance of Flowers (cheap twist if you are not running in GMoF)
+ 1 W from Dancing with Flames (It requires being in GMoF and in Fire Stance)
+ 0.5 W from Improved PA
+ 0.5 W from Reinforced Fist gear
+ 0.5 W from monk past life, if available

12 monk levels? so no natural fighting feats, no animal growth, no decent heal spells, etc.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Adamantine_Knuckles_%28Level_25%29 is w[3.5]


I'm sure the rest of your DPS calcs will be with those wraps also, right?

U Second off u get snowslide and howl of terror,
What's the breakdown on that howl of terror DC?


for 150+ onn a normal hit.
150 on a non-crit "normal" hit? Can I see that breakdown?





. As far as the cool downs go......never been a prob yet, each to there own, u wanna play a caster druid that's cool, but don't go hateing onn the wolf u don't understand :P

If you're not bothered at all by 2.5x cooldowns, you're not making very good use of your spellcasting abilities.

You can throw out of context numbers around all you want, but when you try to put it all together you can't get everything.

I'd love to see the breakdown and bulid that gets
50+ earthquake, snowslide, and howl of terror DCs
6w and 150+ on a "normal" hit
60+ stunning fist,
all essential melee feats (along with monk PL, as that's apparently something everyone fits in also).
30+ PRR (you want to say alive in EE right?)
45+ reflex (all this talk of evasion is pointless without it)

EssenceofEvil
07-02-2013, 09:45 PM
I like having high wisdom on my Druid.. I wish I could have my cake and eat it too with shape shifting. Ie staff of nat gann, staff of seer or that healing scepter that uses wis/cha for damage/hit would translate over into shapeshifting forms. I guess the elemental ones would work but not the animal ones. Oh we'll cant have everything.....

RudedawCDN
07-03-2013, 11:20 AM
I like having high wisdom on my Druid.. I wish I could have my cake and eat it too with shape shifting. Ie staff of nat gann, staff of seer or that healing scepter that uses wis/cha for damage/hit would translate over into shapeshifting forms. I guess the elemental ones would work but not the animal ones. Oh we'll cant have everything.....

I feel we give up too much of our "Druidness" to use Bear or Wolf Form.

I mean really wouldn't it make more sense to play a monk?

I play a Water Elementalist and melee just fine in Fury of the Wild with Stave of the Seer (it loves wisdom lvl ups!), Shillelagh (Same as Deadly Weapons Buff with Stave of Seer) and overwhelming critical blunt.

Plus; I have splashed 2 levels of Monk and twist Dance of Flowers and fight centered so that gives me another 1.5

I hit on average for 100-120 per swing. While in Wolf Form with Grave Wrappings I hit for on average 50-60 per swing. So in Wolf Form I need double strike to reach the same kind of average dps.

But I also lose the 25% cold debuff (for sweet greater creeping cold dot awesomeness) and the -4 to reflex save (for my EQ's).

Greater Creeping Cold does really nice dot damage and it's very cheap to cast.

I don't know if Wolf Form / Double Strike / +Wrapping modifiers makes up for the damage difference.

Loss of 3-5 feats to make wolf form dps viable - let's face it - if you are going to play Wolf Form you need to max out double strike - which means you are feat starved for anything that let's you pretend to be anything but a Druid in name.

Loss of Wisdom skill ups and all that entails.

I just think you give up too much "Druid" to play in Wolf Form or Bear Form.

Tilomere
07-05-2013, 04:34 PM
I think the answers make the point. The question boils down to "How to make Druid animal form viable end game?"

The answers are all of the form: Do not be a druid. They deflect and don't actually answer the real question.

To illustrate how alien these answers are, here is another viable solution : splash 18 levels of sorc and chain cast different missiles and multihit ray/meteor spells as a wolf in shiradi. Now your wolf form has no-save CC and sorc level dps. It will honestly do more damage than a sorc/pali since you can stack druid and sorc spell enhancement lines!


Although I honestly think the question not asked is: Are druids such powerful spell casters that their added animal form dps needs to be held in check?

Mass regen on a pure 1x/2mnk/17 helf druid in primal ED is 25 or so a tick. 300 spellpower makes it 100. This is reasonable.

Then you break it with the following:

1.21 multiplier Monk Dilly
1.21 multiplier Human HAmp (helf only gets 2 ranks)
1.1 Gear
1.2 Gear
1.3 Gear
1.1 Ship
1.25 Jidz Tet'ka

And you end up with a 3.45x healing multiplier so your mass regen heals for 345 per tick, AoE (although other players in AoE will likely heal for less).

Add in spring's resurgence and you are looking at 200hp/sec healing AoE for 6 minutes or so, or basically invulnerability.

I would argue that any caster class that grants AoE invulnerability for 6 minutes to your party better not also have top of the line melee dps. They need subpar melee dps to be forced to spend mana on something other than invulnerability.

JasonJi72
07-07-2013, 04:30 AM
I think the answers make the point. The question boils down to "How to make Druid animal form viable end game?"

The answers are all of the form: Do not be a druid. They deflect and don't actually answer the real question.

To illustrate how alien these answers are, here is another viable solution : splash 18 levels of sorc and chain cast different missiles and multihit ray/meteor spells as a wolf in shiradi. Now your wolf form has no-save CC and sorc level dps. It will honestly do more damage than a sorc/pali since you can stack druid and sorc spell enhancement lines!


Although I honestly think the question not asked is: Are druids such powerful spell casters that their added animal form dps needs to be held in check?

Mass regen on a pure 1x/2mnk/17 helf druid in primal ED is 25 or so a tick. 300 spellpower makes it 100. This is reasonable.

Then you break it with the following:

1.21 multiplier Monk Dilly
1.21 multiplier Human HAmp (helf only gets 2 ranks)
1.1 Gear
1.2 Gear
1.3 Gear
1.1 Ship
1.25 Jidz Tet'ka

And you end up with a 3.45x healing multiplier so your mass regen heals for 345 per tick, AoE (although other players in AoE will likely heal for less).

Add in spring's resurgence and you are looking at 200hp/sec healing AoE for 6 minutes or so, or basically invulnerability.

I would argue that any caster class that grants AoE invulnerability for 6 minutes to your party better not also have top of the line melee dps. They need subpar melee dps to be forced to spend mana on something other than invulnerability.

*Runs in and grabs Tilomere, and rapidly removes him from the room*

Nothing to see here devs... go back to your coloring books...

DOH! That was a close one! :)

Tilomere
07-07-2013, 05:08 PM
*Runs in and grabs Tilomere, and rapidly removes him from the room*

Nothing to see here devs... go back to your coloring books...

DOH! That was a close one! :)

Oh my bad, my math was wrong. I forgot a 30% multiplier for static spell critical effects! The numbers are actually higher...

SerPounce
07-08-2013, 04:13 PM
I think the answers make the point. The question boils down to "How to make Druid animal form viable end game?"

The answers are all of the form: Do not be a druid. They deflect and don't actually answer the real question.

To illustrate how alien these answers are, here is another viable solution : splash 18 levels of sorc and chain cast different missiles and multihit ray/meteor spells as a wolf in shiradi. Now your wolf form has no-save CC and sorc level dps. It will honestly do more damage than a sorc/pali since you can stack druid and sorc spell enhancement lines!


Although I honestly think the question not asked is: Are druids such powerful spell casters that their added animal form dps needs to be held in check?

Mass regen on a pure 1x/2mnk/17 helf druid in primal ED is 25 or so a tick. 300 spellpower makes it 100. This is reasonable.

Then you break it with the following:

1.21 multiplier Monk Dilly
1.21 multiplier Human HAmp (helf only gets 2 ranks)
1.1 Gear
1.2 Gear
1.3 Gear
1.1 Ship
1.25 Jidz Tet'ka

And you end up with a 3.45x healing multiplier so your mass regen heals for 345 per tick, AoE (although other players in AoE will likely heal for less).

Add in spring's resurgence and you are looking at 200hp/sec healing AoE for 6 minutes or so, or basically invulnerability.

I would argue that any caster class that grants AoE invulnerability for 6 minutes to your party better not also have top of the line melee dps. They need subpar melee dps to be forced to spend mana on something other than invulnerability.

Meh, that's got a whole lot more to do with the power of healing amp's multiplicative stacking than regenerate. Once you have 3.45x amp (and that's a significant investment you have to make to get that: 4 gear slots, 12 AP, racial choice, dilly (giving up 3d6 SA)) you can be healed in all kinds of unusual ways. Regen does take advantage of it nicely (though not as nicely as super efficient renewal or the completely passive RS aura or fvs20 clw sla), but at best it's just doing what can be done in dozens of other ways slightly more efficiently. The operative ability here is massive amp, not anything druid specific.

Tilomere
07-09-2013, 03:40 PM
Other ways of healing such as mass cure light wounds or cleric aura just indicate that other healers are equally viable. It doesn't answer if druid is such a powerful spell caster that melee dps needs to be held in check.

Ok so you want a build that doesn't give up anything. High dps, high healing, AND extended invulnerability. Now normally I would say that's sorta broke, but this is DDO, home of the juggernaut. Here is a Lamnia one:

3 monk 17 druid HELF Rogue dilly.

Get 3 sneak attack die and 10% healing amp from monk (ninja spy and shintao)
Get 3 sneak attack die and healing amp from natures warrior? (Don't know for sure what lvl req. for instinctive fighting)
Get 3 sneak attack die from Rogue dilly, and 20% HAmp from HELF enh.

Realize your healing spell power isn't so hot so get EmpH to make up for it. Mass Regen now costs 60.

Use Align the Heavens monk finisher to reduce mass regen to 45.

Use Essence of the Shrike to reduce mass regen to 25, or 150/minute.

You now have lots of sneak attack dice for solid wolf dps and attack, this allows you to stack con for solid HP, can maintain a decent mass regen as a permanent buff, can still maintain a high HAmp, and can use handwraps for increased die step, all at the same time.

And you still have full free choice of ED and twists.

On live you can't get 3 sneak attack monk die or wolf form healing amp, but you can get an 18 mana mass regen since you won't need to empower it with access to healing enhancements.

SerPounce
07-10-2013, 11:19 AM
Other ways of healing such as mass cure light wounds or cleric aura just indicate that other healers are equally viable. It doesn't answer if druid is such a powerful spell caster that melee dps needs to be held in check.

Ok so you want a build that doesn't give up anything. High dps, high healing, AND extended invulnerability. Now normally I would say that's sorta broke, but this is DDO, home of the juggernaut. Here is a Lamnia one:

3 monk 17 druid HELF Rogue dilly.

Get 3 sneak attack die and 10% healing amp from monk (ninja spy and shintao)
Get 3 sneak attack die and healing amp from natures warrior? (Don't know for sure what lvl req. for instinctive fighting)
Get 3 sneak attack die from Rogue dilly, so total of 12.

Realize your healing spell power isn't so hot so get EmpH to make up for it. Mass Regen now costs 60.

Use Align the Heavens monk finisher to reduce mass regen to 45.

Use Essence of the Shrike to reduce mass regen to 25, or 150/minute.

You now have lots of sneak attack dice for solid wolf dps and attack, this allows you to stack con for solid HP, can maintain a decent mass regen as a permanent buff, can still maintain a high HAmp, and can use handwraps for increased die step, all at the same time.

And you still have full free choice of ED and twists.

On live you can't get 3 sneak attack monk die or wolf form healing amp, but you can get an 18 mana mass regen since you won't need to empower it with access to healing enhancements.

You're still missing the point: Why be a wolf as opposed to an elemental drunk with wraps or a Sireth like a melee fvs/cleric? DPS is a wash (less if you consider spell dps), and no 2.5x cooldowns, better stunning first with wraps (due to 2wf doublestrike), better DCs (due to debuffs), and +100% fort and stunning immunity to boot.

It's not that druids are necessarily bad, it's that animal forms are a trap. You're better melee in elemental.

Tilomere
07-10-2013, 04:55 PM
My wolf ice cleave life went really, really fast. 1-20 everything just melted, and then I TR'd.

I know that wolf form was faster leveling than Druid AA 1-20 and druid heal bot.

In EE, I would expect wolf form to shine as primary group healer, since with longer fights a lower mass regen cost would be more relevant. I've only done EE as a healbot fire ele and AA, but I did have mana issues trying to keep mass regen rolling for extended periods of time.

I've been doing a bunch of EE's. I think if I'm in PA and twist renewal + healing spring to keep other allies up it will all work out. Wolf and summon might not die due to PA, and allies might not die due to stacking renewal on top of a weaker mass regen.

RudedawCDN
07-26-2013, 12:30 PM
Oh my bad, my math was wrong. I forgot a 30% multiplier for static spell critical effects! The numbers are actually higher...

So you are seriously playing a Wolf Form Druid to be a heal bot?

"Theory crafting" is fine - but let's stick to reality folks.

SirValentine
07-27-2013, 11:23 AM
2 W from monk levels, 2.5 if you go for 12 monk levels


Wait, is this about Druids (possibly with Monk or other splashes), or about Monks (with Druid splashes)?

12 Monk is a Monk, not a Druid.

Tilomere
07-29-2013, 04:24 AM
So you are seriously playing a Wolf Form Druid to be a heal bot?



You can live through a hard fight as a druid by heal botting or CCing mobs with earthquake. Neither method really deals damage.

One of the methods shakes the entire screen continuously.

SerPounce
07-29-2013, 08:14 PM
You can live through a hard fight as a druid by heal botting or CCing mobs with earthquake. Neither method really deals damage.

One of the methods shakes the entire screen continuously.

And the other one uses 5x the SP.