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Wanesa
05-31-2013, 05:49 AM
I wish to have something similar as %subj%. I want to play user content. I want to create my own quest-chain with strong storyline. Let users can create campaigns, chains or raids.

Let we have guild quests, guild chains or guild events!

Devs, i want to see this feature in U20! You can win battle against "neverwinter D&D arcade game".

I am prepared to pre-purchase DDO's quest editor ;-)

Uska
05-31-2013, 10:44 AM
It's a bad idea and will never work here they use to many custom tools and it would take to long to weed through the trash and not one game with user generated content has ever truly impressed me NWO certainly never will because the base game bites!


This has been brought before and quite a few people like the idea but most agree the Huge amount of dev time that would be required would be better spent elsewhere on more useful and more universally appealing things

Lonnbeimnech
05-31-2013, 11:20 AM
I can imagine most of the quests generated would involve either running to the end of a hall and get 30k, pull a lever upon entering the dungeon and getting 40k, doing a tile puzzle with only 1 tile and get 50k, etc etc.

maybe even something like framework, kill 10 mobs get 10k xp, except they all spawn in a pit and you stand above them in a safe spot throwing firewalls down.

Missing_Minds
05-31-2013, 11:36 AM
The engine is based on too many custom tools. It will not happen in the current rendition of DDO.

However, I did finally figure out a way on how to make it such that UGC would not break any thing in the primary game at all, but it does require additional resources to be put aside from the parent company.

Wanesa
05-31-2013, 11:36 AM
I can imagine most of the quests generated would involve either running to the end of a hall and get 30k, pull a lever upon entering the dungeon and getting 40k, doing a tile puzzle with only 1 tile and get 50k, etc etc.

maybe even something like framework, kill 10 mobs get 10k xp, except they all spawn in a pit and you stand above them in a safe spot throwing firewalls down.

Be serious, there should be rules. You can aslo use statistic to detect these "invalid" quest. Comunity has a lot of statistics AFIK, for example XPs per minute. Quests with very high of this numbers can be penalized. It is not hard task to find way how to prevent to do such a things

droid327
05-31-2013, 12:31 PM
Be serious, there should be rules. You can aslo use statistic to detect these "invalid" quest. Comunity has a lot of statistics AFIK, for example XPs per minute. Quests with very high of this numbers can be penalized. It is not hard task to find way how to prevent to do such a things

You cant get those kind of statistics, though, without running the quest, multiple times, with different classes, etc.

Yes, its possible that users could generate content, of course. But the screening and QA that Turbine would have to put them through would require more dev time than just developing new content themselves. Mostly because they'd have to be much more thorough looking for trojan horses and backdoors in UGC...they obviously dont have to worry about secret, purposefully exploitable mechanics in their own quests.

UGC for art assets, though, I could support. Not sure how much dev time that would save, but the worst they have to worry about then is someone trying to sneak through a picture of boobies or something :)

Lagin
05-31-2013, 01:17 PM
Won't happen.
The dog said so.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/animation/dw4.gif

delsoboss
05-31-2013, 01:49 PM
One more road block on the path to UGC is the fact that, as far as i remember, Turbine is producing canon content for the D&D settings in which we play.

I may be enterely wrong on this, since i just remember vaguely something from the MotU launch and something i read when starting the game.

Hoglum
05-31-2013, 02:11 PM
It's a bad idea and will never work here they use to many custom tools and it would take to long to weed through the trash and not one game with user generated content has ever truly impressed me NWO certainly never will because the base game bites!


This has been brought before and quite a few people like the idea but most agree the Huge amount of dev time that would be required would be better spent elsewhere on more useful and more universally appealing things

I don't see anything more universally appealing than boatloads of content to play. DDO totally rocks but look what we've seen lately: 3 dungeons in the last 2 updates. That's how long?

I'm sure there are obstacles but it would be nice if the developers and least looked into the possibility.

Wanesa
05-31-2013, 03:05 PM
You cant get those kind of statistics, though, without running the quest, multiple times, with different classes, etc.

Yes, its possible that users could generate content, of course. But the screening and QA that Turbine would have to put them through would require more dev time than just developing new content themselves. Mostly because they'd have to be much more thorough looking for trojan horses and backdoors in UGC...they obviously dont have to worry about secret, purposefully exploitable mechanics in their own quests.

UGC for art assets, though, I could support. Not sure how much dev time that would save, but the worst they have to worry about then is someone trying to sneak through a picture of boobies or something :)

You are still kidding, aren't you? Which trojan horses, which backdoors in UGC? Who want to give users ability to write UGC in C++? Who want to give users access the files outside the game? UGC means that you will able to create dungeon by the similar way as in PnP on a squared paper. Built up from predefined fragments. Outside areas can be simple terain (high) map with objects, trees, buildings, ... and simple scripting: "when player turns these four levers, a door on other side of the map opens". And some dialoges for NPCs. Nobody wants to make new monsters, new animations (game has a lot of animation sequencies). Nobody wants to create new gear! All chests in quest can give to you standard loot. Present game has system how to choose dificult depend on character level - challenges - or depend on size of the party - dungeon scaling.

I only see problem with too easy quests giving you a lot of XPs. But you can handle it without need additional employments. Actually, this can be secured by Game Masters. New quests can be put into "beta testing phase" to be played with virtual XPs reward which will be converted to real XPS after new quest leaves "beta testing phase" into "production phase". System will be able to collect enought statistics to make decision whether the quest is too easy or not.

About QA: You are also able to separate user quests and official quest which will not have impact to QA. (with appropriate disclaimer on the UGC)


One more road block on the path to UGC is the fact that, as far as i remember, Turbine is producing canon content for the D&D settings in which we play.

I may be enterely wrong on this, since i just remember vaguely something from the MotU launch and something i read when starting the game.

I don't know which licence has Turbine for D&D. But it is strange. I never played PnP version of D&D, because this game has been never translated into my natural language, But we have similar game in Czech Republic (one can say "heavily inspired by D&D"), written by czech autors: "Draci Doupe" ~ Dragon Lair. (shrotcut DrD). The game may contain recomended worlds, a story background or legends for players need help with their imagination. But main objective of such a game-system is just user content. Every DrD party consists from players and one dungeon master, which prepared own story, own world and own legend with own quests. And this makes a lot of fun and a lot of diversity, flexibility and variety

In social connected world, where ppls are able to share whole their life, we still have game with limitations at level equal to years when games Eyes Of The Beholder and Dungeon Master ruled the world. It has only better graphic and allows multiple players. Nothing more.

(sorry for mistakes in my english)

Charononus
05-31-2013, 03:16 PM
1) It's exploited for xp.

2) It's xp potential is so low no one runs it.

I played nwo, some of the foundry content was really good, then the exploiters made all the speed leveling maps and even though they banned exploit maps as fast as they could, a new one would just be made. So they nerfnuked the xp and item drops in the foundry. I don't see how any ugc in an mmo can end any other way.

Wanesa
05-31-2013, 03:21 PM
1) It's exploited for xp.

2) It's xp potential is so low no one runs it.

I played nwo, some of the foundry content was really good, then the exploiters made all the speed leveling maps and even though they banned exploit maps as fast as they could, a new one would just be made. So they nerfnuked the xp and item drops in the foundry. I don't see how any ugc in an mmo can end any other way.

You actually say: UGC does't work, because they are doing wrong.

or

You say: UGC did work, but they made mistake and the same mistake will do Turbine, so it will not work too.

Interesting logic

What do you actually say?

Charononus
05-31-2013, 03:27 PM
You actually say: UGC does't work, because they are doing wrong.

or

You say: UGC did work, but they made mistake and the same mistake will do Turbine, so it will not work too.

Interesting logic

What do you actually say?

UGC doesn't work because of fundamental flaws in human nature where people will try to exploit. The only possible way to fix this, is massive oversight where every quest is pre-screened by a dev prior to it's availability to the public, or reducing the xp and loot of ugc to levels where it is not worth running it.

edit*
The oversight won't happen for any mmo because it would cost a small fortune to hire people to do this.

droid327
05-31-2013, 03:38 PM
You are still kidding, aren't you? Which trojan horses, which backdoors in UGC? Who want to give users ability to write UGC in C++? Who want to give users access the files outside the game? UGC means that you will able to create dungeon by the similar way as in PnP on a squared paper.

Ugh...."trojan horses" and "backdoors" mean more than just malware. I meant designing mechanisms in the level that, if you know how to work them, allow you to subvert the system. Ie, putting in a certain spot that, if you have enough Jump, you can jump to a different ledge and circumvent most of the level and rush to the end.

It would not be apparent to any gametesters who dont know to specifically look for it, but once it goes live, you know about it and exploit it.

wonko_the_sane
05-31-2013, 03:48 PM
It seems to me that this would be most excellent.

Of course, it would need it's own server, where characters aren't allowed to transfer to other servers. That should do nicely to filter exploit-ridden content.

If a module gets enough positive feedback, THEN it can be reviewed by Turbine. But not even by a paid employee. There are plenty of players that care enough about this game to do that for them. For free. I believe that with the "lively" discussions on these forums, not one single exploit-ridden module will get through to the main servers. This could possibly even be done on Mournlands so the investment in another server could be sidestepped.

Then the content would come rolling in and the game would thrive. Because for alot of us it is all about the amount of quality content. Many of us would play fun new content of any level just for the fun - no new uber lewt needed.

Charononus
05-31-2013, 04:02 PM
It seems to me that this would be most excellent.

Of course, it would need it's own server, where characters aren't allowed to transfer to other servers. That should do nicely to filter exploit-ridden content.

If a module gets enough positive feedback, THEN it can be reviewed by Turbine. But not even by a paid employee. There are plenty of players that care enough about this game to do that for them. For free. I believe that with the "lively" discussions on these forums, not one single exploit-ridden module will get through to the main servers. This could possibly even be done on Mournlands so the investment in another server could be sidestepped.

Then the content would come rolling in and the game would thrive. Because for alot of us it is all about the amount of quality content. Many of us would play fun new content of any level just for the fun - no new uber lewt needed.

You think mournland testers do so for any reason other than to find the exploits there so they can exploit them right when they go to live?

Wanesa
05-31-2013, 04:37 PM
Ugh...."trojan horses" and "backdoors" mean more than just malware. I meant designing mechanisms in the level that, if you know how to work them, allow you to subvert the system. Ie, putting in a certain spot that, if you have enough Jump, you can jump to a different ledge and circumvent most of the level and rush to the end.

It would not be apparent to any gametesters who dont know to specifically look for it, but once it goes live, you know about it and exploit it.

1) with sufficient statistics, you are able to detect this sooner then quest becomes "mature" (went to live, or production)

2) There are many official quests with such a spot - Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Impossible demands, Trial by Fury, Nobody take care of that.

You can also "don't give" to UGC ability setup quests XPs. Using sufficient statistics, system can calculate XPs itself. It can use average XPs per minute at quest level (determined from average CR of monsters and bosses) multiplied by average time need for complete. After aprx. 100 random runs of various parties, system will be able to determine this averages. Until 100 runs is achieved, parties receive and accumulate virtual XPs which will be converted to real XPs right after the quest matures (and this virtual XPs can be stored in adventure compendium )

Krelar
05-31-2013, 04:43 PM
2) There are many official quests with such a spot - Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Impossible demands, Trial by Fury, Nobody take care of that.


That actually proves the point. Turbine can't even keep up with fixing all their own quests to avoid these issues unintentionally popping up. (And yes they do fix these frequently but it's a matter of priorities and severity of the spot) Dealing with people putting these issues in on purpose would be a nightmare.

wonko_the_sane
05-31-2013, 04:46 PM
You think mournland testers do so for any reason other than to find the exploits there so they can exploit them right when they go to live?

Yes, I think some of the folks are there for other reasons. One of those reasons is to help make the game better. The viewpoint that all players are out to exploit all the time is not true in my experience.

I'm glad that's the only flaw you see in that idea. They should run with it. Really, a seperate server for UCG would be all that is needed. They could auto-collect stats from that server to see which quests are worth a closer look, as Wanessa states.

Wanesa
05-31-2013, 04:51 PM
That actually proves the point. Turbine can't even keep up with fixing all their own quests to avoid these issues unintentionally popping up. (And yes they do fix these frequently but it's a matter of priorities and severity of the spot) Dealing with people putting these issues in on purpose would be a nightmare.

Disagree - I think, that these bugs doesn't hurt game system so much to have motivation to fix them. And this is all about it. Having one player or party using such spot will not hurt the game. Using this spot by all players can be easy detected making quest no longer available in production.

I am saying that devs in NWO doing wrong.

No comments to my other suggestions?

Wanesa
05-31-2013, 04:54 PM
Really, a seperate server for UCG would be all that is needed. They could auto-collect stats from that server to see which quests are worth a closer look, as Wanessa states.

I think that server is not needed. Sandbox on each server will be enough to allow players run new UGC quests with they favorite toons and gear

Cyr
05-31-2013, 04:56 PM
Couple things about this subject...

a) Turbine does indeed use many 'custom' tools when creating dungeons. That would make this sort of system harder to implement initially. However, that 'hand crafted' approach they use is exactly the reason why content is so dang slow in coming out. Basic rule of programing is to make things re-usuable and quick to do that so next time around it is fast and easy. In other words, enforcing repeatable drag and drop design rules upon new dungeon elements (mobs, walls, whatever) would make new content design MUCH easier in the long run.

b) Rewards...easy and no brainer solution here...give a base xp/min which is horrible for dungeons automatically upon completion and same with base chests of that level (poor chest/min return).

c) Developers review high rated content produced by users and make changes to xp/min and chest number/locations/add named loot. Devs makes sure dungeon is upto snuff as far as perch points and such, maybe tweak some mobs here and there if they want or put a boss in and put their stamp of approval on it. IE, users create content but the rewards suck until/unless the devs do a balance pass on it.

d) Tons of new content is produced and devs can release massive amounts of their own new content with easier to use dungeon creation tools compared to before...drawback is initial cost...and here I assume Turbine just does not bother like so many other things in the game where initial investment would have made a much better game long run

Charononus
05-31-2013, 05:02 PM
b) Rewards...easy and no brainer solution here...give a base xp/min which is horrible for dungeons automatically upon completion and same with base chests of that level (poor chest/min return).


Problem with this is that very very few people would run the quests then and you'd have a very poor system of initial upvotes on the content. Look at the eveningstar challenges for example.

Wanesa
05-31-2013, 05:44 PM
Problem with this is that very very few people would run the quests then and you'd have a very poor system of initial upvotes on the content. Look at the eveningstar challenges for example.

I saw many LFM on Thelanis. More popular are Eveningstar chalenges.

Eveningstar challenge gives me aprx 1500xp/min for first time and 550xp/min each repeat (3 stars achieved)

Wanesa
05-31-2013, 06:07 PM
Problem with this is that very very few people would run the quests then and you'd have a very poor system of initial upvotes on the content. Look at the eveningstar challenges for example.

Why ppls running Kobolt Assault with the worst XPs/min and one chest with standard loot on all difficults at 3-5 levels?

Charononus
05-31-2013, 06:12 PM
I saw many LFM on Thelanis. More popular are Eveningstar chalenges.

Eveningstar challenge gives me aprx 1500xp/min for first time and 550xp/min each repeat (3 stars achieved)

Saw, is past tense, first they cut the xp, then the cloaks were obsoleted, and now the new quests give easier favor options. Even the first time bonus is pretty poor considering you can get 10k/min epic xp easy enough.

Charononus
05-31-2013, 06:13 PM
Why ppls running Kobolt Assault with the worst XPs/min and one chest with standard loot on all difficults at 3-5 levels?

It's easy favor for tp farming.

Bradik_Losdar
06-05-2013, 10:30 AM
saver

Teh_Troll
06-05-2013, 10:33 AM
Why ppls running Kobolt Assault with the worst XPs/min and one chest with standard loot on all difficults at 3-5 levels?

because it's fun. Killing kobolds never gets old.

Bradik_Losdar
06-05-2013, 10:41 AM
saver

Well apparently you can't edit previous posts on this new forum - so here is what I was going to post:

I agree that UGC would be a big money maker for DDO - I made a very detailed post on a system that could be put into place that not onlt removed all possibliity of exploiting said content but also provided rewards - - for not only the players...but also the authors of outstanding submissions.

See my sig below under "Player made content can work in DDO"....

Edit: Nevermind, apparently the the new forums ate all past posts.

GoRinNoSho
06-14-2013, 10:09 PM
IMO the foundry is the one major strength out of NWO. Not for XP gain, but for variety. It is something different. When the game becomes solely about numbers, perhaps we should take Yahtzee's advice and open up Excel and hold the down arrow until we say we have the most magnificent pair of pants ever.

If you want to avoid breaking canon, introduce Wilma/Barney the Mind Flayer in House J that makes it basically a shared hallucination amongst the party.

Given the option, even at low/no xp gain people may want to fight a vorpal death chicken instead of running rusted blades until they fall asleep again.

People have been asking for the tower of terror where they fight multiple bosses in tandem, a system like this would/could allow that. If there were things for the players to do other than rehash the same quests they've been running for years and know backwards/forwards, then that might buy the devs more time to make more engrossing quests instead of the basically linear run, handing a scroll of untimely doom to a redshirt or sitting back and watching a lizard man taking the captive away even though the lizard man should've been stabbed enough to be 80% transparent.

Cyr
06-14-2013, 10:19 PM
Problem with this is that very very few people would run the quests then and you'd have a very poor system of initial upvotes on the content. Look at the eveningstar challenges for example.

I disagree with that. User created content in NWO is incredibly fun and it has junk rewards. Many players would run these types of quests, but only once each and review them just like in NWO.

Great way to cut up the same old same old...run something new. DDO just has so little new to run put out per year that players have done it all once very very quickly...

IE, many players ran the dumb evenignstar challenges at least once...even with junk rewards and not exactly the highest of player reviews for them.

Uska
06-15-2013, 03:59 AM
IMO the foundry is the one major strength out of NWO. Not for XP gain, but for variety. It is something different. When the game becomes solely about numbers, perhaps we should take Yahtzee's advice and open up Excel and hold the down arrow until we say we have the most magnificent pair of pants ever.

If you want to avoid breaking canon, introduce Wilma/Barney the Mind Flayer in House J that makes it basically a shared hallucination amongst the party.

Given the option, even at low/no xp gain people may want to fight a vorpal death chicken instead of running rusted blades until they fall asleep again.

People have been asking for the tower of terror where they fight multiple bosses in tandem, a system like this would/could allow that. If there were things for the players to do other than rehash the same quests they've been running for years and know backwards/forwards, then that might buy the devs more time to make more engrossing quests instead of the basically linear run, handing a scroll of untimely doom to a redshirt or sitting back and watching a lizard man taking the captive away even though the lizard man should've been stabbed enough to be 80% transparent.

The foundry doesn't save NWO nothing but a complete rebuild will do that no matter how much variety you add to a boring game with bad game play its still going to be bad and boring there will just be more of it.

ssgcmwatson
06-15-2013, 07:13 AM
because it's fun. Killing kobolds never gets old.

Kobold still hate you!

ssgcmwatson
06-15-2013, 07:36 AM
I used to love games that would have fan-made missions available - it was a great way to extend the life of the game, and some fan missions were better than originals (anyone old enough to remember Thief?).

Turbine could release mission tools but leave out options for XP or loot. We play for the fun of playing, and vote on the mission's quality when done (1 vote per account). Missions with a high run rate and high vote average get reviewed by Turbine staff - they get any necessary tweaks, XP and loot are placed, and it becomes an actual mission.

Hafeal
06-15-2013, 08:21 AM
It's a bad idea and will never work here

I disagree, a foundry is a great idea and would be hard to implement. Anything worth having is often hard to get or make.


... but most agree the Huge amount of dev time that would be required would be better spent elsewhere on more useful and more universally appealing things

Most of whom? Kobolds? Based on what I have seen devs spend their time on, often unrequested or unwanted changes, I stopped worrying about how the devs spend their time long ago.


*snip*

Good points, well said. I will add this, and it will be unpopular: a Foundry could work and is worth Turbine's investment, the key being you make people pay for it. Multiple access levels - one for DMs (by dungeon level, for example) and one for players (also tiered by level). You do have to balance real money pay against proper level of participation but that is sliding scale. Implemented well, the required oversight on Turbine's part would be manageable and, more importantly, profitable. They could start a set-up and systematically add to it this way - allow level 1-4 creation and then work their way up with more dynamic tools and access.

Yes, it would be hard at initial onset to set up the system, but in the long run, I think it would be a key to the game's revitalization and would attract many new players and bring many, many players back. :)

Uska
06-15-2013, 10:09 AM
I disagree, a foundry is a great idea and would be hard to implement. Anything worth having is often hard to get or make.



Most of whom? Kobolds? Based on what I have seen devs spend their time on, often unrequested or unwanted changes, I stopped worrying about how the devs spend their time long ago.



Good points, well said. I will add this, and it will be unpopular: a Foundry could work and is worth Turbine's investment, the key being you make people pay for it. Multiple access levels - one for DMs (by dungeon level, for example) and one for players (also tiered by level). You do have to balance real money pay against proper level of participation but that is sliding scale. Implemented well, the required oversight on Turbine's part would be manageable and, more importantly, profitable. They could start a set-up and systematically add to it this way - allow level 1-4 creation and then work their way up with more dynamic tools and access.

Yes, it would be hard at initial onset to set up the system, but in the long run, I think it would be a key to the game's revitalization and would attract many new players and bring many, many players back. :)

Disagree and see little incentive for turbine to invest the huge amount of time and money this would take if it would even be possible at all given the custom tool set they use and all for little return IMHO as I have seen no user generated content in any game that I would pay for and having content to sell is the only way turbine would do such.

Wanesa
06-15-2013, 11:20 AM
Disagree and see little incentive for turbine to invest the huge amount of time and money ...

It depends, how much tools they will allow. In the first phase, there can be very simple editor allowing to put monsters and chests into an existing land or dungeon and to write own scripts, dialogs and objectives. This can't be more difficult than rewrite current enhancement system for every class and race. Later, they can introduce tools to create new lands (editing heightmap) or dungeons (using predesigned fragmens), putting other objects there (trees, buildings) and make land live through some simplified scripting language (pull two lewers overthere to open that door).

I also suggest to allow to access the editor for players that capped max level (or unlocked by the favor) with any character and for TPs of course. Good adventures (chains, campaigns) can be sold as new adventure packs sharing profit with the author (in TPs or discount on VIP subscription). There can be a lot of business models how to make profit on this feature.

Many ppls are naturally creative. Just look around, there are a lot of tools created by the users - ddowiki, crafting planners, ED planners, character planners, etc.

Hafeal
06-15-2013, 02:11 PM
Disagree and see little incentive for turbine to invest the huge amount of time and money this would take if it would even be possible at all given the custom tool set they use and all for little return IMHO as I have seen no user generated content in any game that I would pay for and having content to sell is the only way turbine would do such.

*shrug* We will agree to disagree then. :eek:

I think many players would pay for access toa Foundry type environment in DDO - IF, and that is a big IF, it can be done right. It could also be prfotibale and would need to be.

The reality is that DDO will never produce content on a scale that rivals other games because WB is not putting money into it to make that happen. A vicious circle. DDO, though, if it could successfully tap into the players' creativity, could vastly increase content output. While user generated content might not always thrill your play style, not all dev created content does at this point anyway. Jumping to the conclusion that there would be no user generated content worth paying for is, imho, a reactionary statement and not one meant to be taken literally. :D

Uska
06-18-2013, 11:47 PM
*shrug* We will agree to disagree then. :eek:

I think many players would pay for access toa Foundry type environment in DDO - IF, and that is a big IF, it can be done right. It could also be prfotibale and would need to be.

The reality is that DDO will never produce content on a scale that rivals other games because WB is not putting money into it to make that happen. A vicious circle. DDO, though, if it could successfully tap into the players' creativity, could vastly increase content output. While user generated content might not always thrill your play style, not all dev created content does at this point anyway. Jumping to the conclusion that there would be no user generated content worth paying for is, imho, a reactionary statement and not one meant to be taken literally. :D

No saying there will be little to no user content worth playing is from playing games with that type of content and seeing little worth even trying for a nano second and over 35 years of pnp seeing a few hundred gms all who thought they were much more creative and entertaining then they really were. I tried the foundry stuff in NWO I wouldnt pay a dime for any of it of course a large part of that is the game itself but there was zero user generated stuff for the orginal NW that I would have paid for either.

Allowing User generated content would cause many more problems then it would solve