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MarcusCleardawn
05-28-2013, 10:31 AM
Dear Developers,

Please take a break from implementing "new stuff." I'm no tech guy, but it seems that once a system gets as complicated as DDO it is essentially impossible to add new stuff without breaking something.

In a very short time you guys have implemented:
1. A new quest series
2. An enhancement pass that's at least arguably as expansive as the revised combat system
3. A memorial
4. Many new DDO Store Items
5. A new set of hirelings
6. New epic and other items
7. Halted guild augments
8. Created a new set of augments
9. Implemented a new currency, a new exchange to use that currency, and updated several NPC's to use that currency.

And I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot. Point is, all this change has brought about some serious game play bugs that are spiking your help desk and annoying the player base:
1. Wail
2. Spell Crit
3. The "No I really did click on that objective" but can't finish the quest any more.
4. Character Creation that refers to "Spellcraft" as a class skill, but don't show it in the creation screen
5. Multiple display bugs

I'm not sure what's motivating this amount of change. For all I know, y'all are all working double and triple shifts trying to pump out stuff so that the revenue numbers will increase enough to prevent WB from closing the servers. If it's a revenue issue, perhaps an appeal to the player base would be more effective (a point sale for example, or even a sale on the new shinies).

Y'all have published an awful lot in a very short period of time. If it's not a revenue issue, then to whoever is pushing the pace, may I suggest you try writing code for a few days, because it seems that you have no appreciation for the difficulties involved.

Best of luck.

Satyriasys
05-28-2013, 10:37 AM
No doubt. I wish they would take a break from adding new stuff and take some time to polish the game. The amount and magnitude of bugs has gone from annoying to severely limiting game play.

Gkar
05-28-2013, 10:40 AM
Moving from a subscription model to a P2P model is no doubt fueling this problem. No one pays $$ for a bug fix update so taking the time to do that interrupts their cash flow. In the long run they will probably be better off because bugs eventually annoy people enough to leave, but many companies (and people) are rather short sighted.

Cetus
05-28-2013, 10:51 AM
No new stuff?

/not signed

I prefer new stuff with some bugs to no new stuff at all with zero bugs. You'll always have bugs, I want new stuff to work through.

Satyriasys
05-28-2013, 11:01 AM
No new stuff?

/not signed

I prefer new stuff with some bugs to no new stuff at all with zero bugs. You'll always have bugs, I want new stuff to work through.


Enjoy your new quests that you cannot ever finish because theres a mob stuck in a wall or the switch you need to open is bugged.

msdesign
05-28-2013, 11:26 AM
No new stuff?

/not signed

I prefer new stuff with some bugs to no new stuff at all with zero bugs. You'll always have bugs, I want new stuff to work through.

LOL :D


Enjoy your new quests that you cannot ever finish because theres a mob stuck in a wall or the switch you need to open is bugged.

Thats what I though, but the other guy made me laugh :D

I remember the time when DDO was a game with only a couple bugs, very playable and fun. But nowadays, I feel it more hard to have some fun in Stormreach. The game is full of players eager to get an item, to farm xp or whatever, to run, run... Since the last expansion, MotU, I feel that this no longer is the DDO I know. People went max level with xp stones (I mean, lets skip a few levels and don't play, instead of actual play and grow as normal players do).

I always like new aditions and improvements but not if they cause even more bugs and serious issues everywhere (like the massive VIP charges in-a-row some folks had recently). Forums changes were not very successfull. UI changes ingame were not pleasant (why is the chat Set Transparent icon still hovering above my toon head?). And etc etc etc. You got the picture.

I sign this request. Please look back to your game changes and try to work on those problems. A smoother game world would be very pleasant to everybody.

Aliss7
05-28-2013, 03:22 PM
1. Took away myddo (including the blogs and api)
2. Game UI downgrade and no updated art/ui pack to fix it.
3. Forum downgrade

Bogenbroom
05-28-2013, 03:31 PM
I think they would find people would be pretty happy with an update or two that included new quests, but no game engine/ui/etc enhancements.

I, personally, don't have a problem with the state of the game, but there is a sizable crowd who is clamoring for bug fix passes and those can be done while still allowing the content developers to do there (almost always awesome) thing.

Cetus
05-28-2013, 05:32 PM
Enjoy your new quests that you cannot ever finish because theres a mob stuck in a wall or the switch you need to open is bugged.

I'm aware of the ramifications of my stance

Most of those bugs get fixed in a timely fashion, leaving us with - guess what? New content!

MarcusCleardawn
05-29-2013, 11:11 AM
I'm aware of the ramifications of my stance

Most of those bugs get fixed in a timely fashion, leaving us with - guess what? New content!

I don't think you are. Seems to me your stance is

"Content now. Fix bugs later."

My position is:

"Fix bugs. Content later."

Point being the bug fixes and the new content have to be done, we're just arguing about the order. My assumption, however, is that the more you publish the more difficult it is to track down and fix the bugs because:

1. You have more volume of stuff to look through and
2. You have more stuff that interacts with other stuff that might potentially break when you fix whatever it is.

Similarly, I would assume that developing new content would be less difficult and time consuming if the foundation upon which it is built were more stable.

So if we assume that "New Content" and "Bug Fixes" are inevitable, that is to say for the game to survive it will both have to publish new content and engage in bug fixing that content, the only issue is

"Is it more efficient to Bug Fix first, or Publish New Content first?" I think the reasonable conclusion is that Bug Fixing first is clearly more efficient.

The only reasonable justification for adopting the "Publish New Content First" position is to generate revenue or retain your client base. Clients may leave or at least not provide revenue if a game company does not provide new content for a period of time.

Not everyone has the appetite for New Content that you do, nor is everyone as content to run old content as I am. The question is "Has Turbine attracted more revenue by introducing all this new stuff than they have lost by putting out this new content (some of which is quite unpopular like the new forums) and the bugs that came with it (like the I can't complete this quest because somebody got interrupted clicking a quest objective or the fact that Wail of Banshee still seems borked).

No one can gauge exactly the bug impact of new content. I suspect that this round of bugs is more extreme than anyone anticipated and it is not fair to judge the decision to go forward with publication with the benefit of hindsight as to the severity of the bugs. But Update 18 was sprung on us with a surprise publication. I'm not sure why, and I can't find any response from the developers why other than there were "certain conditions" that made it necessary to publish without the usual forewarning.

What I do know is, Wail of the Banshee is an iconic spell that a lot of players wanted fixed; it's been borked for a long time; the developers previously reported on the forums that it would be fixed in update 18; and it's still borked. And in general, it's bad business to promise to deliver something by a date certain and then not do so. It is particularly bad to fail to deliver as promised and not come forward with an explanation.

TL:DR
It easier to fix bugs before adding new content than after. Bugs are becoming a serious client retention issue in my opinion. Bugs and bug fixing are inevitable if the game is to survive, so for the love of Pete stop making bug fixing more difficult by publishing more bugged content.

I would also note that the QA on this update has been worse than I remember other updates just given the number of typos.

Cetus
05-29-2013, 02:27 PM
I don't think you are.

I think 7 years is more than enough time for me to assess my priorities as far as updates are concerned. Yes, I'm aware.

I've experienced DDO's famous "dark ages" before the f2p model and I've experienced the horrendous bugs, (one of the more famous are CITW that ended up bugged with no GM help after a half hour to hour investment), and all the stuff in between.

I feel worse about this game when I have nothing to do than when I'm a victim of some bug. I want stuff to do, bugs will get dealt with eventually.

Interesting and involved content now. Thats the lesser of the two evils.

I'm not a fan of throw away content, like the druid pack is, but thats a totally different discussion.

FalseFlag
05-29-2013, 05:55 PM
I think 7 years is more than enough time for me to assess my priorities as far as updates are concerned.

You might be aware of your priorities. That doesn't mean you possess awareness of whether they are poor or not. And they are, if your stance is "Eh, they'll fix the bugs eventually", since the more new content they add, the more new bugs there are, and the longer the list of unfixed bugs becomes. So yay! be ware of your priorities, and be aware that they are flawed.

Cetus
05-29-2013, 06:12 PM
You might be aware of your priorities. That doesn't mean you possess awareness of whether they are poor or not. And they are, if your stance is "Eh, they'll fix the bugs eventually", since the more new content they add, the more new bugs there are, and the longer the list of unfixed bugs becomes. So yay! be ware of your priorities, and be aware that they are flawed.


I think I ****ed off two people now, keep it coming!

I should mention: Aware =/= Assess.

xXbikergirlXx
05-29-2013, 06:19 PM
Bugs can be fun, who can find a workaround first etc., but not being able to log in now that must really suck. I'll put up with the bugs as long as I can play! Also there should be an icon for Bat-**** crazy.

Cetus
05-29-2013, 06:33 PM
...and be aware that they are flawed.

Check this out

Fact #1: Time must be invested in order to fix bugs. Agree?

Fact #2: Time must be invested in order to deploy new content. Agree?

Ok, assuming that we agree that the above two statements are true, which they obviously are, lets proceed to this claim right over here...

Claim #1:
since the more new content they add, the more new bugs there are


So, if the devs spent a certain amount of time fixing various bugs, and then they spent some more time to deploy new content, which results in the emergence of more bugs - then we have new bugs to fix...rendering the initial time investment in bug fixing AND content design devoid of things to do for me, kinda like right now - pretty bored with doing egh for the umpteenth time.

Instead, deploy the content first, and then move onto fixing the bug conglomerate while we have something to do - even if we experience a few annoying bugs.

Oh and by the way, this is where my 7 years of experience with this company comes into play - read this one closely: There aren't that many bugs that are so critical that the game is unplayable. Remember MOTU? We were unable to complete CITW, and we had serious issue with reincarnation, but I still enjoyed the explorer areas and grinded for gear. Win.

Those that do occasionally arise get remedied rather quickly, all the while I have largely fun stuff to do.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. You may not agree with it, which is fine. Disagreement is the fuel for discussion.

MarcusCleardawn
05-30-2013, 11:13 AM
Cestus, let us agree to disagree. You've put forth valid points and responded quite well in response to a post that now, in hindsight, may well have been taken as far more condescending than I intended. Thank you and I apologize for that. It seems apparent now that the Developers share your position (or at least are currently more in line with it than mine).

The only thing that's left is to kinda take my own advice, and vacate for a month or two and see if their QA, Bug Fixing, etc catches up to the frenetic pace they've set.

So peace to all, if the servers were up you could haz my stuff as I kinda like using "no twink" perma death rules.

Cheers

Cetus
05-30-2013, 11:51 PM
Cestus, let us agree to disagree. You've put forth valid points and responded quite well in response to a post that now, in hindsight, may well have been taken as far more condescending than I intended. Thank you and I apologize for that. It seems apparent now that the Developers share your position (or at least are currently more in line with it than mine).

The only thing that's left is to kinda take my own advice, and vacate for a month or two and see if their QA, Bug Fixing, etc catches up to the frenetic pace they've set.

So peace to all, if the servers were up you could haz my stuff as I kinda like using "no twink" perma death rules.

Cheers

No worries, its all good.