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7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-19-2013, 12:42 PM
The DDO devs deserve some praise for never making a bug as bad as the one on Neverwinter right now.

You can make a bid on the Neverwinter auction house for a negative number. And if your negative number is bigger than any positive number, you win the item and GET THAT AMOUNT OF CURRENCY MAILED TO YOU!

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

The economy there is so screwed.

Bid -50,000,000 on an item and you get the item and 50 million mailed to you!!!! haahhahahahah

Then you take those millions of astral diamonds (the ingame currency) and you buy Zen (the real $ currency) on the Zen exchange.

One person bought $90,000 worth of the Zen currency in a couple hours last night.



So grats to the DDO devs for never ever ever ever screwing up that bad!

oweieie
05-19-2013, 12:50 PM
The DDO devs deserve some praise for never making a bug as bad as the one on Neverwinter right now.

Comparing the bugs of a shipped product to one that hasn't even been released yet because it is in development is silly.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-19-2013, 12:56 PM
Comparing the bugs of a shipped product to one that hasn't even been released yet because it is in development is silly.

Now that's a very silly comment to make. Neverwinter is in beta in name only. The real money store has been active since day 1. Pretending it's just like any other beta when that aspect of the game is active is not at all appropriate.

Calling it beta is a marketing decision. It gives them an excuse to turn to for their bugs. It does not however accurately reflect the state of the release of the game.

And this bug direct affects the real money transactions. Calling it beta does not excuse the fact they just screwed with a huge number of player's wallet.

DDO has only ever screwed with a small number of player's wallets. :)

Postumus
05-19-2013, 12:56 PM
Comparing the bugs of a shipped product to one that hasn't even been released yet because it is in development is silly.

Not if you can buy zen. If you can take a beta glitch and buy virtual currency that can be used in other games, then yeah that is a colossal mistake.

Missing_Minds
05-19-2013, 01:22 PM
Comparing the bugs of a shipped product to one that hasn't even been released yet because it is in development is silly.
Ordinary, I'd agree. But Zen Cash is VERY MUCH live. This is a colossal fup on Cryptic's part, worthy of shutting down beta till that gets fixed, honestly.

DynaTheCat
05-19-2013, 01:40 PM
This will probably lead to a wipe of beta...

Or, more likely, a deletion of each exploiter's account......

A major major crisis. :D

fun fun....

Zai
05-19-2013, 01:52 PM
I'm assuming this bug has been around since "beta" launched and has so far been kept quiet by those exploiting it. They might really have to do a full wipe as the amount of work required to analyze logs and remove illegal currency gained over several weeks is likely not something their minimal support staff can handle. Or they can just ban the few people that massively exploited it and leave all that currency in game, screwing up the economy forever.

This is why games have real betas, not fake "soft-launch" betas with open cash shops. Epic fail.

TheNewSlarden
05-19-2013, 02:27 PM
This will be a good opportunity to see how PerfectWorld responds and will give some insight into how well they are managed. I look forward to hearing how it's resolved.

droid327
05-19-2013, 02:40 PM
Heh I wonder if it removes the amount from the original seller's account too? Seems like that's what its doing....it subtracts a -50,000,000 value from your account, and pays out a -50,000,000 value to the seller's account. Insult to injury :)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-19-2013, 02:49 PM
This is actually getting resolved as we speak. They seem to have a very good handle on it. Lets see how they handle it.

badbob117
05-19-2013, 03:05 PM
Well i Can't log on so i guess they sorting it out.

It is a bug filled exploit fest though. Thats the problem with all these lame astral shard /real money ah games. Always people out to make a buck at any means necessary.. They always have problems with people exploiting it and stuff. Gold spammers promoting their sites ect ect. It is crazy.

Neverwinter is fun. its to bad they went the lame route with the pay to win stuff. It turns me off of games sometimes.

That said, we have had our fair share of game breaking exploits and economic crumbling in DDO. Don't kid yourself. Our devs Can trump any game company on the planet when it comes to creating bugs . Were the best hands down... Neverwinter has 6 years to catch up! This bug only puts em at the 4 month mark in comparison to Turbine as far as the bug factor goes. Hahaha! joke joke :)

Charononus
05-19-2013, 03:21 PM
Well i Can't log on so i guess they sorting it out.

It is a bug filled exploit fest though. Thats the problem with all these lame astral shard /real money ah games. Always people out to make a buck at any means necessary.. They always have problems with people exploiting it and stuff. Gold spammers promoting their sites ect ect. It is crazy.

Neverwinter is fun. its to bad they went the lame route with the pay to win stuff. It turns me off of games sometimes.

That said, we have had our fair share of game breaking exploits and economic crumbling in DDO. Don't kid yourself. Our devs Can trump any game company on the planet when it comes to creating bugs . Were the best hands down... Neverwinter has 6 years to catch up! This bug only puts em at the 4 month mark in comparison to Turbine as far as the bug factor goes. Hahaha! joke joke :)
New to the DDO store

Positive integer bid bypasses
150TP

Thank you again Neverwinter.

=P

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-19-2013, 03:28 PM
Heh I wonder if it removes the amount from the original seller's account too? Seems like that's what its doing....it subtracts a -50,000,000 value from your account, and pays out a -50,000,000 value to the seller's account. Insult to injury :)

It's not that bad for the seller.

The seller ends up losing the item and getting nothing. Still pretty bad, but they don't lose any of their currency on hand.


And the bug has only been here for 2 days at most, not weeks.

You can tell quite easily because this only worked for bids, not buyouts. And the negative bids only popped up on the ah about 48 hours or so ago.

Lots of the exploiters are trying to launder the ill gotten currency buy buying the most expensive mounts, cats, and then selling/trading them to other players.

Global chat was massively spammed with "WTS cats" and "WTB cats"

A meme going around now is:

"That awkward moment in your game when the exploits are so bad that cats have become the main currency for trading."

Arnez
05-19-2013, 03:35 PM
Meh.

I've seen this in other games "a supposed exploit that will forever ruin the game" haven't seen an MMO yet that shut down due to "In-Game economic instability"

And yes- Turbine has never made this kind of bug.... They only released a bug that charged your card ONE HUNDRED TIMES for an automatic subscription.

I can't seem to decide.... which of those was worse..... Hmmmmmm.

(For those that can't get the sarcasm- it was the one that took so much of a players personal savings that he couldn't feed his 2 year old the next day)

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-19-2013, 03:42 PM
Meh.

I've seen this in other games "a supposed exploit that will forever ruin the game" haven't seen an MMO yet that shut down due to "In-Game economic instability"

And yes- Turbine has never made this kind of bug.... They only released a bug that charged your card ONE HUNDRED TIMES for an automatic subscription.

I can't seem to decide.... which of those was worse..... Hmmmmmm.

(For those that can't get the sarcasm- it was the one that took so much of a players personal savings that he couldn't feed his 2 year old the next day)

Ya, that's what I was referencing when I said "a small number of player's wallets" in DDO. The number of people hit by that admittedly serious bug was relatively small. However the damage done in Neverwinter is much more widespread.

Chai
05-19-2013, 04:09 PM
NWO posted there will be no wipe. Sure a wipe would be easier on removing exploiters gains, but it would be tough to refund all zen spent in game as that too would require log analysis and tons of individual action.

They released NWO too soon. There have been far too many high impact bugs.

Postumus
05-19-2013, 05:00 PM
And yes- Turbine has never made this kind of bug.... They only released a bug that charged your card ONE HUNDRED TIMES for an automatic subscription.

I can't seem to decide.... which of those was worse..... Hmmmmmm.




So something that impacts a HANDFUL of people, like .0001% of the player population, who were all eventually reimbursed for the billing error is more egregious than something that affects the ENTIRE PLAYER POPULATION and it's unlikely anyone negatively affected (those who got no compensation for their auctioned items) will be reimbursed?


Please keep ignoring those jury summons. Seriously.

Postumus
05-19-2013, 05:02 PM
Ya, that's what I was referencing when I said "a small number of player's wallets" in DDO. The number of people hit by that admittedly serious bug was relatively small. However the damage done in Neverwinter is much more widespread.


It's not even comparable. The folks who lost their items in Neverwinter auctions are certainly never going to be reimbursed for them.

Kominalito
05-19-2013, 05:38 PM
Meh.

I've seen this in other games "a supposed exploit that will forever ruin the game" haven't seen an MMO yet that shut down due to "In-Game economic instability.

Aeria Twelvesky 1 and 2. The sequel being a hack for "contribution points" that allows exchange for game money. meaning, everyone was billionaires thousands of times over.

nni
05-19-2013, 06:27 PM
One person bought $90,000 worth of the Zen currency in a couple hours last night.

I wonder what luxuries they bought with such an immense fortune.

dotHackSign
05-19-2013, 06:32 PM
NWO posted there will be no wipe. Sure a wipe would be easier on removing exploiters gains, but it would be tough to refund all zen spent in game as that too would require log analysis and tons of individual action.

They released NWO too soon. There have been far too many high impact bugs.

Funny, I thought it was still in open Beta...

oweieie
05-19-2013, 08:21 PM
Now that's a very silly comment to make. Neverwinter is in beta in name only.

LOL! It was just released in open beta. Not "in name only" but in fact. Claiming otherwise is moronic.


The real money store has been active since day 1. Pretending it's just like any other beta when that aspect of the game is active is not at all appropriate.

It is very appropriate. Claiming something that is quite clearly in beta as not being so just so you can claim a bug is bad is not at all appropriate.


And this bug direct affects the real money transactions. Calling it beta does not excuse the fact they just screwed with a huge number of player's wallet.

DDO has only ever screwed with a small number of player's wallets. :)

No, it doesn't. It hits in game items. For real money transaction bugs, you can look at what Turbine did to people a month or two ago charging them for 200 months of subscriptions.

For a more severe bug that has cost far more people far more time and has not been addressed after 5 years rather than Cryptic's 2 days, you can turn to Turbine and their memory leak causing crash on zone.

So, you're arguing the sky isn't blue with your "it isn't actually a beta", you're wrong about the bug's impact, you're wrong that Turbine hasn't done worse. 3 for 3. Good job!

Seikojin
05-19-2013, 08:39 PM
The DDO devs deserve some praise for never making a bug as bad as the one on Neverwinter right now.

You can make a bid on the Neverwinter auction house for a negative number. And if your negative number is bigger than any positive number, you win the item and GET THAT AMOUNT OF CURRENCY MAILED TO YOU!

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

The economy there is so screwed.

Bid -50,000,000 on an item and you get the item and 50 million mailed to you!!!! haahhahahahah

Then you take those millions of astral diamonds (the ingame currency) and you buy Zen (the real $ currency) on the Zen exchange.

One person bought $90,000 worth of the Zen currency in a couple hours last night.



So grats to the DDO devs for never ever ever ever screwing up that bad!

Funny that they don't cover that internally. Basic testing 101. I found a bug like that in Elder Scrolls 3, morrowind. The bug was only producible on the xbox (went home after work and checked), however, the first pc patch had patch notes detailing the fix for the last minute bugs I found, which only could occur on the xbox.

Zai
05-19-2013, 09:02 PM
The seller ends up losing the item and getting nothing. Still pretty bad, but they don't lose any of their currency on hand.

And the bug has only been here for 2 days at most, not weeks.

You can tell quite easily because this only worked for bids, not buyouts. And the negative bids only popped up on the ah about 48 hours or so ago.

I couldn't see anything changed in the recent patch notes that could have backfired to create this issue. The only thing they touched on the AH in the last patch was removing an auction length. People have been complaining about not getting the AD for auctions sold since the game came out. If I was evil and wanted to exploit this without bringing attention to it I would have waited for auctions to get very close to completion and snipe a big negative bid in there at the last second. Nobody would see the negative bid and wonder what was going on, the exploit would stay quiet.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-19-2013, 09:32 PM
LOL! It was just released in open beta. Not "in name only" but in fact. Claiming otherwise is moronic.

I guess the producers of the game are morons! They are the ones saying it is live: http://www.perfectworld.com/

See that green L next to the name Neverwinter? See the legend just above where it tells you it means LIVE? See how if it was open beta it would be an O?

The producers are calling it live because the real money Zen store is active. The developers are calling it open beta as a tactic to try and keep down the complaints about the state of the game.


No, it doesn't. It hits in game items. For real money transaction bugs, you can look at what Turbine did to people a month or two ago charging them for 200 months of subscriptions.

It is not just an item bug because the in game currency Astral Diamonds can be used to buy the real money currency Zen via the in game Zen exchange. And that is what was done. 100% of all Zen listed for sale by players was bought out on all servers! Also, some people went a different route and sold the Astral Diamonds to websites that sell the Astral Diamonds to players. Those people walked away with as much as $6000 to $7000 cash thanks to the exploit.

Pretending this is just a minor issue involving items is blatantly wrong.


So, you're arguing the sky isn't blue with your "it isn't actually a beta", you're wrong about the bug's impact, you're wrong that Turbine hasn't done worse. 3 for 3. Good job!

1) The producers say it is live.
2) You obviously don't understand the impact of the exploit.
3) Turbine has not done anything close to this bad.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-19-2013, 09:35 PM
I couldn't see anything changed in the recent patch notes that could have backfired to create this issue. The only thing they touched on the AH in the last patch was removing an auction length. People have been complaining about not getting the AD for auctions sold since the game came out. If I was evil and wanted to exploit this without bringing attention to it I would have waited for auctions to get very close to completion and snipe a big negative bid in there at the last second. Nobody would see the negative bid and wonder what was going on, the exploit would stay quiet.

Well I didn't give all the details on the bug and that is likely why it's not so obvious. This bug did not affect bids made using the in game AH interface. It was only exploitable when using the web based Gateway. This is a website the devs provide that lets you login and see your characters, and perform crafting and browse the AH, without actually running the game client. It's all web based.

That website was the source of the exploit. I don't recall seeing update notes for the Gateway being posted along with the game update notes.

Chai
05-19-2013, 09:51 PM
LOL! It was just released in open beta. Not "in name only" but in fact. Claiming otherwise is moronic.

They waffled on that pretty hard. Their website has three status for all of their games: Closed beta, Open bets, and Live.

A few days ago NWN was marked live, with a L in a box on the PW main site and there was a thread saying NWO is now LIVE!! They also took all the open beta logos off their site, temporarily...

When the exploit reports started rolling back in, where 2 different classes could one shot kill t2 epic bosses and players could bid a negative value on their AH to receive huge amounts of shards, PW/Cryptic went right back to their wonderful little 'its still in beta" spiel, even though its been like 4 days now that its been marked live. All those "beta" logos went right back up on their site.

So yes, it is "beta" in name only, as an excuse for releasing a game WAY TOO EARLY. Also note that their devs are posting on twitter by the hour now since the servers came down that there will be no mass wipe, no start over, nothing. At this point the word "beta" is simply a semantic detail, and regardless if they continue to use it or not, the end result will be the same.

Beethoven
05-19-2013, 10:29 PM
LOL! It was just released in open beta. Not "in name only" but in fact. Claiming otherwise is moronic.

Exactly.

It'd be open, it would be open to the general public while NWO currently ... well, it is open to the general public.
However, open games require you to spend real money whereas NWO you buy stuff ... with real money.
But the line where games go from testing into open is usually marked by a final reset and NWO ... did a final reset and from now on there will be no more resets.

Maybe I am a moron. So could you please explain in simple terms how NWO is different from a fully open game other than just calling it beta? Because, y'know, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it just might be a duck and I cannot see anything "moronic" in saying it seems to be a duck. Not even if the duck keeps claiming it is a merely in beta and will one day be an oxen.


So, you're arguing the sky isn't blue with your "it isn't actually a beta", you're wrong about the bug's impact, you're wrong that Turbine hasn't done worse. 3 for 3. Good job!

Because it is absolutely not moronic to equate a bug which potentially allows every single player to purchase virtually every convenience and the ultimate end-game gear across three games with /some/ people crashing when entering a zone.

Speaking of which, why are (some) people over at NWO claiming they keep getting disconnected from the serves while in (outdoor) zones or is zone crashing also fine as long as the company uses the cop out of "being in beta"?

Beta is probably one of the most abused terms in gaming industries (right up there with "hotfix") as meaning, we are actually open but would like a grace period where we are not held responsible for the quality of the product. Historically though quantity and severity of bugs rarely decreases once game leave beta.

chance2000
05-19-2013, 10:53 PM
Perhaps you should tell Perfect World / Cryptic their game is no longer in open beta.
They did not seem to get that memo.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-19-2013, 11:04 PM
Perhaps you should tell Perfect World / Cryptic their game is no longer in open beta.
They did not seem to get that memo.

I guess you didn't bother to read the thread. Perfect World's website, right now, says it is live.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 12:52 AM
The game is still in open beta folks, after all it just phased in on April 30. I agree, the terms "live" and "Beta" typically mean something very very different nowadays.

Cryptic has long stated that beta would be very old school in its definition. They are very much still in a testing phase. The dev team is very much still active, just like they were in alpha phase. Today's cheaters unfortunately require much more time spent in safeguards, because they spend so much more time trying to break the systems. This is the risk all game developers face today. You cant eliminate cheaters and exploiters. But you can make a more enjoyable environment for the honest players and those that are there to play the game the way it was meant to be played.

Turbine did a great job in a much easier environment 7 years ago, but still was privy to game braking exploits eventually. If DDO was "the new shiny" today, it would have been broken the same way Neverwinter is now.

All that really matters at the end of the day is that they get the economy fixed, close the exploit, and ban the accounts. Its very much to their credit that they didnt do a wipe as that would be unfair to the large majority of the playerbase, who had nothing to do with it. Instead they are taking time to learn rectify and go after each toon and account who took advantage, whether its dummy accounts or not. They have very sophisticated means of tracking goods back and forth, and they are taking advantage of it with a full team of engineers.

Open beta will last quite a while. The game is not "live", the open beta is "live".

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 12:57 AM
They are the ones saying it is live: http://www.perfectworld.com/

See that green L next to the name Neverwinter? See the legend just above where it tells you it means LIVE? See how if it was open beta it would be an O?

This is a display bug. The game is in open beta.

forummuleonly
05-20-2013, 01:00 AM
This is a display bug. The game is in open beta.


I have to admit, I have stayed out of this thread until I observed how this was handled by NWO.

But frankly, the quoted comment made me laugh so hard my cat got stuck in the mini blinds.

Note to self: Never bust out laughing so hard you make your cat jump into the blinds and get stuck.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 01:06 AM
So yes, it is "beta" in name only, as an excuse for releasing a game WAY TOO EARLY.

Actually it really is still in beta. There's no question the game is in a testing phase. Its not just a typical marketing beta. And this exploit proves there was a need to stay in beta until they feel ready.

As far as "releasing" the game way too early I agree 100%. However, people need to get paid and sometimes you just have to press the green button and work together as a team and a community to tighten the bolts. I would have loved to see double or triple the classes developed before release but its just not practical in todays market.

The game is very playable, very fun, and it was time to move to the next phase. I think we'll see them hard at work for at least another 4-6 months before they are out of open beta.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 01:14 AM
the quoted comment made me laugh so hard my cat got stuck in the mini blinds.

Glad you find it amusing, but the fact is I know what I speak of.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 01:26 AM
Maybe I am a moron. So could you please explain in simple terms how NWO is different from a fully open game other than just calling it beta? Because, y'know, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it just might be a duck and I cannot see anything "moronic" in saying it seems to be a duck. Not even if the duck keeps claiming it is a merely in beta and will one day be an oxen.



Because it is absolutely not moronic to equate a bug which potentially allows every single player to purchase virtually every convenience and the ultimate end-game gear across three games with /some/ people crashing when entering a zone.

Speaking of which, why are (some) people over at NWO claiming they keep getting disconnected from the serves while in (outdoor) zones or is zone crashing also fine as long as the company uses the cop out of "being in beta"?

Beta is probably one of the most abused terms in gaming industries (right up there with "hotfix") as meaning, we are actually open but would like a grace period where we are not held responsible for the quality of the product. Historically though quantity and severity of bugs rarely decreases once game leave beta.

You are definitely not a moron Beethoven. However some of the bugs you mention are exactly the reason to continue to call it exactly what it is, open beta. Just because they did a final reset doesnt mean there's not more bugs to fix, more classes/content and many other details to cover before they feel comfortable announcing the game is out of it's final beta phase.

I completely agree with you that the term "Beta" is one of the most abused terms in gaming, no question about it. In this case however, they fact that there is clearly more work to do, they are perfectly in the right to keep the game in beta phase. More sophisticated cheaters require more time to develop/redevelop systems to dissuade them.

I am of the same mind when DDO was under the same fire -- lets not blame the developers who work hard to put out a fun game, or the engineers who make broken things work again, blame the cheaters and the exploiters who have nothing else better to do but cheat and profit for their own benefit, at the expense of others (whether monetary or simply enjoyment).

chance2000
05-20-2013, 01:27 AM
NWO Beta is live the official live release has not happened.
As of this moment people can still buy the founder's packs.
Just because a few in the DDO forums claim the game is not in beta does not make it so.


We are still investigating the situation. There is a high likelihood that we will be performing character-specific rollbacks on any accounts that were found to be utilizing the exploit. Additionally, we are investigating the extent of what can additional steps can be taken to remove any illegitimately obtained Astral Diamonds that have entered into the economy. We are also investigating the possibility of a shard-wide rollback.

This is from Cryptic/PW
And this one was just posted


5.19.13 - Server Status Update and Important Announcements

Dearest Beta Testers and Bravest Adventures,

In the dark hours of this Sunday morning an in-game bug was discovered and taken advantage of by a very small group of villainous Nashers intent on exploiting Neverwinters Open Beta Gateway and Auction House systems for unearned Astral Diamonds.

Thanks in no small part to the efforts of our continually amazing Beta community, we were able to quickly identify the exploit and the perpetrators. Once identified, we took immediate action, calling in the entire development and publishing teams to lock down the Neverwinter OBT as we sought out a solution.

Rest assured, the issue has been corrected and we have taken appropriate action against all players who took advantage of the bug, including but not limited to enforcing permanent bans.

Sadly, the damage to the economy was done.

Rather than let the malicious efforts of a few unsavory players linger and continually impact the games economy and balance as we progress through these later stages of Open Beta, we have made the extremely difficult decision to rollback Neverwinter to a time shortly before the abuse and exploitation began.

This means that roughly seven hours of progress made between 5:20 AM and 12:20 PM Pacific Time will be lost to all players. For that, we do sincerely apologize.

Following an extensive QA check, Neverwinter will begin again as soon as possible. We hope to have them available soon, and will continue to post updates on the forums and other channels.

When the servers do come back up, a few systems will not be active: the Auction House and the Astral Diamond exchange. When the servers are back up and running, well still be examining these features and preparing some resolutions.

Any attempt to use the Astral Diamond exchange will give an error message. The Auction House, however, wont give an error -- it simply will fail to post the item. This is the known behavior, and were working to bring these systems back up as soon as possible.

As a token of our appreciation for you, the community, and all that youve done for the game throughout these days of Beta, we will be sending a thank-you gift to players and opening ourselves up on the forums and various other channels to answer any and all questions we can.

For more exact details on the rollback and other efforts related to it, please see our comprehensive forum FAQ.

With sincerest thanks for the continued support and feedback,

Your Neverwinter Team

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 01:47 AM
Ha ya beat me to it Chance, good reporting!

And a woop arse job by Cryptic engineers it seems.

ForumAccess
05-20-2013, 02:02 AM
Wow, there really are some gullible people out there. The reason that they make the claim that they are still in 'beta', despite having released their game, is because they have still not lived up to the preorder promises that they made. The game is live in absolutely every sense of the word. The only thing that is 'beta' about it is a trick of language that allows them to short change those who bought in before hand, while they benefit from having a released product.

Chai
05-20-2013, 02:16 AM
Actually it really is still in beta. There's no question the game is in a testing phase. Its not just a typical marketing beta. And this exploit proves there was a need to stay in beta until they feel ready.

As far as "releasing" the game way too early I agree 100%. However, people need to get paid and sometimes you just have to press the green button and work together as a team and a community to tighten the bolts. I would have loved to see double or triple the classes developed before release but its just not practical in todays market.

The game is very playable, very fun, and it was time to move to the next phase. I think we'll see them hard at work for at least another 4-6 months before they are out of open beta.

The word "beta" is mere semantics, used by the appologists in that game as an excuse for anything that could possibly go wrong when it does go wrong. Either the game is open to the general public and accepting any and all payments, or its not. And since it is, the word beta is irrelevant in most customers eyes. When stuff goes this horribly wrong, the status of beta versus live really doesnt mean much to paying customers, who expect to get what they pay for.

The L for live is NOT some oversight or bug. They actually took all beta logos off their sites for 3-4 days, and when these 2 MAJOR exploits were reported, put them all back up, but did not change the L back to O for open beta. Oops.

I also note that both issues were reported in closed beta, and both made it to live.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 02:42 AM
The word "beta" is mere semantics, used by the appologists in that game as an excuse for anything that could possibly go wrong when it does go wrong. Either the game is open to the general public and accepting any and all payments, or its not. And since it is, the word beta is irrelevant in most customers eyes. When stuff goes this horribly wrong, the status of beta versus live really doesnt mean much to paying customers, who expect to get what they pay for.

The L for live is NOT some oversight or bug. They actually took all beta logos off their sites for 3-4 days, and when these 2 MAJOR exploits were reported, put them all back up, but did not change the L back to O for open beta. Oops.

I also note that both issues were reported in closed beta, and both made it to live.

I have used your argument before with many f2p games, but in this game its not fact. Beta is irrelevant in many eyes, absolutely, but they have been treating it as a testing beta, with patches on a regular basis. This is a work in progress still. It is in every way shape or form a beta.

As for the page, yes indeed that was a display bug. No doubt the timing of the exploits make it look official, but I'm telling you, there was, and is, no plan to move out of the open beta phase yet. They are months, not days or weeks, away from it as far as I can tell. Just do the math Chai, 4/30 was day one of open beta, 16 days of open beta would have been ridiculous. Finally, there was no announcement, and there will be a major announcement when beta is over.

The decision to start the engines of their cash shop while still in open beta was specifically my concern, because I knew it would be a real testing open beta. This is the gamble however many f2p developers and execs make. After all the game has been in development for upwards of 5 years, and its time to get paid.

We are in agreement however that closed beta was too short, I would have added a few more months to it. But their argument was a good one, it was time to open the game up to more bodies so they could stress test and polish because much of the core gameplay had been completed a while before then.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 02:45 AM
Wow, there really are some gullible people out there. The reason that they make the claim that they are still in 'beta', despite having released their game, is because they have still not lived up to the preorder promises that they made. The game is live in absolutely every sense of the word. The only thing that is 'beta' about it is a trick of language that allows them to short change those who bought in before hand, while they benefit from having a released product.

"Pre-order promises" have nothing at all to do with when they move out of open beta. Zero. Chai at least speaks of the way it is in many games. This is downright sillytalk and factually void.

Rubbinns
05-20-2013, 03:14 AM
The game is live in absolutely every sense of the word. The only thing that is 'beta' about it is a trick of language that allows them to short change those who bought in before hand, while they benefit from having a released product.



The word "beta" is mere semantics, used by the appologists in that game as an excuse for anything that could possibly go wrong when it does go wrong. Either the game is open to the general public and accepting any and all payments, or its not. And since it is, the word beta is irrelevant in most customers eyes. When stuff goes this horribly wrong, the status of beta versus live really doesnt mean much to paying customers, who expect to get what they pay for.

The L for live is NOT some oversight or bug. They actually took all beta logos off their sites for 3-4 days, and when these 2 MAJOR exploits were reported, put them all back up, but did not change the L back to O for open beta. Oops.

I also note that both issues were reported in closed beta, and both made it to live.

Oh you guys, c'mon now. Every one knows it's in open beta-beta right now. I mean, take every dollar and call mistakes beta problems. What, seems legit, right?

Zai
05-20-2013, 04:59 AM
Honestly whether you want to call it beta or not is completely irrelevant. The cash shop is up, there's no refunds, no wipes, they are selling a product, now, period.

TheNewSlarden
05-20-2013, 05:26 AM
Honestly whether you want to call it beta or not is completely irrelevant. The cash shop is up, there's no refunds, no wipes, they are selling a product, now, period.

To me the jury is still out on the impact of this bug, but it's likely "Zero" to me personally. However, as for the refund comment - I know for a fact that they do give refunds and it's fairly easy. One of my guildies that switched to NWO told me had a problem with a purchase, they refunded it immediately. I can't comment on what support/service is like for free to play players, but at least for paying customers it's really good.

As for the beta, of course it's still in open beta and has always been. When they go live they will make a big deal of it and likely also have a big sale or other promotion going on to capitalize on the release. I think it's fine to point out that NWO has a bug - especially a big one like this. But trying to claim they weren't in beta and/or commenting on a refund policy you know nothing about really isn't necessary. The bug speaks for itself -it's pretty bad and fairly big. The jury is still out on their response to this crisis - at least to me. It sounds like they have identified and taken action with the big exploiters and are making a big effort not to cause a negative impact for the rest of the player base. That's a good start - we'll see how it goes.

Flavilandile
05-20-2013, 07:02 AM
Seem people forgot about several huge bugs DDO had in it's early days.

Chill Shard duping.
Plat duping.
...

Some even made it to my side of the Pond before they were fixed.
( in the early days of DDO there was a one to two week gap between an US update and an European update.... in the later days it was 4 to 6 month )

To cite just two... They definitely broke the economy.

Now on the term Beta. It has been (ab)used so many time that the term is irrelevant.

Actually a lot of the serious industries use the following or similar : In Development, Basic Test ( Alpha ) Function Tests ( Beta ), First Customer ( Alpha Live), Limited Availability ( Beta Live ), General Availability ( Open Beta or Live )
terms in parenthesis being the widely known terms people use.
There's a few other terms like : low or limited maintenance, end of maintenance, end of life, end of support... but they are irrelevant to the discussion :D

Chai
05-20-2013, 07:10 AM
I have used your argument before with many f2p games, but in this game its not fact. Beta is irrelevant in many eyes, absolutely, but they have been treating it as a testing beta, with patches on a regular basis. This is a work in progress still. It is in every way shape or form a beta.

As for the page, yes indeed that was a display bug. No doubt the timing of the exploits make it look official, but I'm telling you, there was, and is, no plan to move out of the open beta phase yet. They are months, not days or weeks, away from it as far as I can tell. Just do the math Chai, 4/30 was day one of open beta, 16 days of open beta would have been ridiculous. Finally, there was no announcement, and there will be a major announcement when beta is over.

The decision to start the engines of their cash shop while still in open beta was specifically my concern, because I knew it would be a real testing open beta. This is the gamble however many f2p developers and execs make. After all the game has been in development for upwards of 5 years, and its time to get paid.

We are in agreement however that closed beta was too short, I would have added a few more months to it. But their argument was a good one, it was time to open the game up to more bodies so they could stress test and polish because much of the core gameplay had been completed a while before then.

Either the game is open to the general public and accepting any and all payments, or its not. The term beta is semantics only. If not, what are some differences between "beta" and "live". They have not held anything back they would not have released anyhow. The only thing I can see is cash shop sales when they finally do try to call it "live" again, for the second time.

Also, the display of L for live is NOT A BUG OR OVERSIGHT. Their own admin had a post up about how the game was now live, right up to and until all these issues started happening, then they put their beta logos back up. Its like they redacted the live status that happened for 4 days.

The 2 major issues that happened yesterday were both reported in closed beta. PW knew about it, didnt fix it, hilarity ensued. Most of the gamers on all servers knew about this stuff 2 months ago. The fix? 7 hours of rollback. Never thought I would see an MMO where cats are the highest value currency.

Chai
05-20-2013, 07:14 AM
Oh you guys, c'mon now. Every one knows it's in open beta-beta right now. I mean, take every dollar and call mistakes beta problems. What, seems legit, right?

Then ignore bug reports from closed beta. Game goes live - people use the exploits theyve known about for 2+ months.

I was receiving 4 or 5 tells a minute for a few hours where people wanted to sell me a cat. :p

moriedhel
05-20-2013, 07:15 AM
Actually they kinda made quite a few bugs that had the potential to be "this bad" :) The only reason they didn't have to rollback servers everytime one of those create infinite plat bugs popped up is because there was no way to exchange plat for TP directly (or Astral Diamonds now).

So they didn't have to do rollbacks because they didn't really lose money, sure players might have been marginally affected but because of the plat cap and inflation of plat over the years anyway it wasn't a big deal.

Though I still consider that 100 times CC charge bug to be worse. I mean letting players create in game money out of thin air and then letting them buy pretend "company" money creates revenue loss for the company and devalues money already existing in the game sure, but it's nowhere near actually pulling money out of people's pockets without them agreeing to it.

chance2000
05-20-2013, 07:49 AM
From
http://mmohuts.com/editorials/what-does-closed-beta-mean

Open Beta – For all intents and purposes, Open Beta means the MMORPG / MMO is released and available to the public. Anyone can register and download the game. In 95%+ of cases, there aren’t any more “character wipes” after open beta, so if you create your character in open beta, you will most likely still have it after the game fully launches. Open Beta is still considering beta testing, but almost all of the bugs / problems with the game have already been worked out. Developers usually focus on enhancing the game by adding new features during open beta rather than fixing bugs, but users are still encourage to submit any bugs they discover during Open Beta.

Chai
05-20-2013, 07:49 AM
Actually they kinda made quite a few bugs that had the potential to be "this bad" :) The only reason they didn't have to rollback servers everytime one of those create infinite plat bugs popped up is because there was no way to exchange plat for TP directly (or Astral Diamonds now).

This is the major crux of why most arent getting caught. AD can be changed to zen, and zen can be transferred to their other games to be spent over there. Someone who took advantage of that situation can launder the AD by changing to zen, transferring to STO, then buying ships and supplies, and selling those to players.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 07:52 AM
Also, the display of L for live is NOT A BUG OR OVERSIGHT. Their own admin had a post up about how the game was now live, right up to and until all these issues started happening, then they put their beta logos back up. Its like they redacted the live status that happened for 4 days.

The 2 major issues that happened yesterday were both reported in closed beta. PW knew about it, didnt fix it, hilarity ensued. Most of the gamers on all servers knew about this stuff 2 months ago. The fix? 7 hours of rollback. Never thought I would see an MMO where cats are the highest value currency.

There was no admin post that the game was live Chai. What admin and post are you thinking of? They've used the term "Open Beta is Live". Big difference.

I was in alpha and all betas. Would you please detail the post which dictates it was reported and that PW was aware of it. Your comment that "Most of the gamers on all servers" knew about such an exploit is patently false information. You are regurgitating someone else's regurgitated false information.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 07:56 AM
This is the major crux of why most arent getting caught. AD can be changed to zen, and zen can be transferred to their other games to be spent over there. Someone who took advantage of that situation can launder the AD by changing to zen, transferring to STO, then buying ships and supplies, and selling those to players.

Most people HAVE gotten caught Chai. They were tracking it all. They already got who they needed to get (actually ALL of them). They are also on the trail of a couple of percentage points more that date back a few days before 5/19. Why comment so much about fluff you clearly are not up to date on? What you hear people whining about on the interwebs in this case is mostly false information they hear from someone else.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-20-2013, 08:32 AM
What you hear people whining about on the interwebs in this case is mostly false information they hear from someone else.

And the basis for not concluding that is what we are getting from you is?

Oh, and the game is live. All those 'closed beta' words on the Neverwinter site are display bugs. :p

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 08:50 AM
And the basis for not concluding that is what we are getting from you is?

Oh, and the game is live. All those 'closed beta' words on the Neverwinter site are display bugs. :p

Haha. Because I'm an active member of DDO and NWO communities, one of the few (but growing) members who actually like both games, am nowhere near a fanboy of either game and have been quite critical of both Turbine and Cryptic when warranted, and currently a volunteer community moderator handpicked because of my critical viewpoints and experience.

But other than that I'm a pion like the rest of us that likes to play D&D video games and pretty ticked off that Turbine and Cryptic have decided to go way more mmo, than D&D. However, this is the world we live in (games cant be too hard these days), these are still fun games to me, and even though I swear under my breath (and sometimes on the forum) at some of the recent decisions from both companies, I don't feel inclined to give up either one of them (though I've come close multiple times).

Chai
05-20-2013, 09:10 AM
There was no admin post that the game was live Chai. What admin and post are you thinking of? They've used the term "Open Beta is Live". Big difference.

I was in alpha and all betas. Would you please detail the post which dictates it was reported and that PW was aware of it. Your comment that "Most of the gamers on all servers" knew about such an exploit is patently false information. You are regurgitating someone else's regurgitated false information.

There was an admin post, they took it down the minute they re-upped all the beta logos ion the site. Ive been in all the alphas and betas since july of last year.

Chai
05-20-2013, 09:13 AM
Most people HAVE gotten caught Chai. They were tracking it all. They already got who they needed to get (actually ALL of them). They are also on the trail of a couple of percentage points more that date back a few days before 5/19. Why comment so much about fluff you clearly are not up to date on? What you hear people whining about on the interwebs in this case is mostly false information they hear from someone else.

Nope - the AH exploit was reported in closed beta. They knew about this for more than 2 months and even acknowledged individual bug reports on it - and did nothing while rolling out something that could easily be exploited like this.

Ive been there since day one, so dont try to paint some picture where I am the one whose info is out of date. I sent them step by step screenshots for how to reproduce that specific issue from a web browser in february, as did other members of our test group. They rolled it out anyway.

Chai
05-20-2013, 09:16 AM
There was no admin post that the game was live Chai. What admin and post are you thinking of? They've used the term "Open Beta is Live". Big difference.

Ive asked you what that difference entails. Please elaborate.

The game is already live. The term beta is semantics only. If not, highlight the differences that we will see when it goes "live" (again).

eris2323
05-20-2013, 09:25 AM
The DDO devs deserve some praise for never making a bug as bad as the one on Neverwinter right now.

You can make a bid on the Neverwinter auction house for a negative number. And if your negative number is bigger than any positive number, you win the item and GET THAT AMOUNT OF CURRENCY MAILED TO YOU!

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

The economy there is so screwed.

Bid -50,000,000 on an item and you get the item and 50 million mailed to you!!!! haahhahahahah

Then you take those millions of astral diamonds (the ingame currency) and you buy Zen (the real $ currency) on the Zen exchange.

One person bought $90,000 worth of the Zen currency in a couple hours last night.



So grats to the DDO devs for never ever ever ever screwing up that bad!

Yes I am glad DDO never did anything like, oh, I don't know, making it so a whole class can't heal stat damage (pale masters) charging 100xmonthly costs, or adding a mechanic to guilds that has slowly been destroying the game for my friends and I, or take several years for a stupid, game-changing enhancement phase to FINALLY get here, or I don't know, setup test servers, then shut down the forums the same day, or I don't know, link game accounts to forum accounts, or any of the bazillions of other things DDO has done over the last 6 years.

Yeah, glad DDO never made any stupid mistakes....

Oh wait.

eris2323
05-20-2013, 09:35 AM
But wait, there's more!

Automated Mabar bans, did we forget about that?

A system that would be open once you were vip, oh wait, what's that, paid expansions?

A new website, that hasn't been checked for cross-browser compatibility! The parts where chrome users have half the text of your forum messages cut off is awesome, well done!

Yeah. No mistakes ever made by turbine. Nothing to see here.

Beethoven
05-20-2013, 09:42 AM
Cryptic has long stated that beta would be very old school in its definition.

That's part of the problem though. Cryptic announced (or promised) to use the old school definition of "open beta" where almost all of the bugs/problems with the game have already been worked out. The "old school" definition of beta would mean they are mostly testing the one thing which could not be tested in a closed beta: a stress test how their hard- and software handles the huge traffic of players which usually comes with going a life.

They very quickly changed their tune once they actually went beta and now use a new definition that has significantly little to do with the "old school" meaning of the word.


Turbine did a great job in a much easier environment 7 years ago, but still was privy to game braking exploits eventually. If DDO was "the new shiny" today, it would have been broken the same way Neverwinter is now.

I don't think Turbine should get to use DDO's environment as excuse for anything, but it is not a simpler environment by any stretch. NWO's environment consists of building blocks stacked together (see Foundry for reference), DDO's environment is hand-drawn (for reference check various developer posts or how the new Havok Physics Engine ended shoving mobs and players alike through tiny cracks in walls, floors and ceilings).

NWO uses a system were each class has set of abilities, no way to mix abilities of different classes and even takes its simplicity so far that melees have /one/ type of armor they can wear and are limited to a single style of weapons (ie: S&B, THF) and casters don't get to choose from a wide range of spells but also only have set special abilities.

Combat in NWO uses a combination of a basic AI and scripts for combat. DDO's combat relies on a complex combination of pathing and collision checks. That's why in DDO you can, say, intercept an arrow even after its fired by stepping in between the archer and its intended target. In NWO you can't, once fired the arrow will impact its target no matter where the target is at the time of impact or how many obstacles have stepped between it and the shooter. The only thing NWO does different from other mostly scripted games is they added an extra phase to combat where you will get a warning where a special attack will land, but if you still there when it happens you will get hit.

It's fair to criticize lag in DDO, how DDO's AI does not quite cut it in every scenario or the "no-facing" bug, but none of it changes the fact that DDO is not a simpler environment, but quite the contrary.


More sophisticated cheaters require more time to develop/redevelop systems to dissuade them.

Except the worst exploits I seen so far did not require any sophistication at all. Cheaters did not need come up with an extensive and complex scheme to circumvent safety measures in new and unforeseen ways. They put a "-" in front of a number to create a negative. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

The same holds true for the earlier Foundry exploit. People took a slow melee mob which had no ranged capabilities whatsoever, but gave a ridiculous amount of XP per kill. Then they basically built four walls around fifty of them with stairs up so toons can sit on top of the walls and use AOE spells to kill them with no risk or challenge and power-level to cap, making virtually all plat they need in the process. There was no sophistication in that whatsoever.

DDO too has "sophisticated" exploiters who will try hang up mobs and/or find safe perching spots. The difference is NWO also adds a system were they can build their own perching spots (in their own quests), and somehow Cryptic was apparently taken by complete suprisse that when letting perchers build their own perching spots it could result in perchers perching.



After all the game has been in development for upwards of 5 years, and its time to get paid.

I totally understand their want and even need to get paid, but that point does not work in Cryptics favor either. It took them twice as long to develop the game and in return their product seems less finished than most its competitors.


In this case however, they fact that there is clearly more work to do, they are perfectly in the right to keep the game in beta phase.

My problem with this line of argumentation is that it is basically fine for the game to have exploits and bugs, no matter how severe and game breaking because it is beta.

What exactly keeps other companies to then to the same or, say, Turbine from saying it is fine for people to get stuck in all kinds of environments because they still are "beta testing" their new physics engine; or put the Enhancement pass life and if completely breaks the game they can simply just claim its in beta and all is good again?

I frequently excuse the lack of quality we get in MMORPGs these days (including DDO's) because they are also cheaper than ever and I am used to quality and costs of a product to be directly related. However, I draw the line at cheap excuses and broken promises and so far Crytpic has not exactly lived up to much of what they said about their game or its open beta stage. Simply put, I pay five bucks for an all you can eat buffet I do not expect to be greeted by highly trained wait-staff and served with award winning food. But if you promise me a steak prepared to order, then serve me a slab of ground beef and call it an award winning steak in beta I will leave your restaurant.

Turbine had their screw ups too, DDO their fair share of bugs and exploits and promises the company did not quite life up to but at least that happened over a period of seven years. Cryptic seems to try beat them in all of the above in a period of merely a month.

Chai
05-20-2013, 09:49 AM
My problem with this line of argumentation is that it is basically fine for the game to have exploits and bugs, no matter how severe and game breaking because it is beta.

What exactly keeps other companies to then to the same or, say, Turbine from saying it is fine for people to get stuck in all kinds of environments because they still are "beta testing" their new physics engine; or put the Enhancement pass life and if completely breaks the game they can simply just claim its in beta and all is good again?


This.

Its merely a semantic term. Its not even being used as an excuse by the company. Its being used as an excuse by the appologists who will swallow any tripe fed to them simply because the word beta is being used to describe the situation. The company has a much better stance on the issue, even going as far as posting on their own forums what the exploit was (cant be done any more) and the penalty for doing it.

They have even confirmed there will be no wipes, start overs, etc.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 09:51 AM
Nope - the AH exploit was reported in closed beta. They knew about this for more than 2 months and even acknowledged individual bug reports on it - and did nothing while rolling out something that could easily be exploited like this.

Ive been there since day one, so dont try to paint some picture where I am the one whose info is out of date. I sent them step by step screenshots for how to reproduce that specific issue from a web browser in february, as did other members of our test group. They rolled it out anyway.

I'm not getting into a back and forth any further with you Chai, don't have the time. If you reported it in Feb than that was a great find, but it never made the forums to my recollection. If I missed it, please show me the link. I get daily briefings every day, as well as communicate with Cryptic reps every day via Skype, so I am as up to date as anyone not currently employed by Cryptic. Every word I've mentioned has been verified as true so I'm comfortable with what I've said in this thread.

To be crystal clear: The AH bug was not known to the dev team in closed beta. They caught on no earlier than the 18th of May. They were on it on the 19th, and it was fixed overnight of the 19th/20th. Right from my notes: Early Sunday morning (the 19th) a very small group of players discovered and abused a game exploit within the Neverwinter Open Beta that affected the Auction House and Astral Diamonds. Exploits that were performed prior to our rollback window make up a fraction of a percent of total impact, so we will be dealing with those issues selectively as not to cause greater impact on those legitimate testers. <--- this yellow part made it into the official notes.

Sure there were bugs that made it to open beta, what did you expect? There are still bugs in DDO that will never, ever get fixed. And yes they were, and will be exploited by a small group of low lifes. You'll always have cheaters try to find a hole .. all you can do is patch it and move on.

Cryptic came out strong today, there's no question. They fixed the game with very little repercussion to honest folk, which is the large majority of the playerbase. Many of the chuckle-heads whining on the NWO forum now are mostly passerbys that will be gone in a few days/weeks anyway.

I believe the thread you were referring to is this, which was not taken down:
Neverwinter Open Beta is now live. Log in and play now! (http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?162821-Neverwinter-Open-Beta-is-now-live-Log-in-and-play-now%21)


You are having a problem seeing the difference between Open and Live Chai. They are not semantics in this case. They felt the game was not ready to lose the beta tag. There will be a major announcement when it does finally reaches "released" phase. But you will never see it no matter how many times you are told. You'll just believe what you want, and in the thick of things, thats ok. The rest of us will move on. I know I will, work calls! ;)

Chai
05-20-2013, 10:23 AM
I'm not getting into a back and forth any further with you Chai, don't have the time. If you reported it in Feb than that was a great find, but it never made the forums to my recollection. If I missed it, please show me the link. I get daily briefings every day, as well as communicate with Cryptic reps every day via Skype, so I am as up to date as anyone not currently employed by Cryptic. Every word I've mentioned has been verified as true so I'm comfortable with what I've said in this thread.

To be crystal clear: The AH bug was not known to the dev team in closed beta. They caught on no earlier than the 18th of May. They were on it on the 19th, and it was fixed overnight of the 19th/20th. Right from my notes: Early Sunday morning (the 19th) a very small group of players discovered and abused a game exploit within the Neverwinter Open Beta that affected the Auction House and Astral Diamonds. Exploits that were performed prior to our rollback window make up a fraction of a percent of total impact, so we will be dealing with those issues selectively as not to cause greater impact on those legitimate testers. <--- this yellow part made it into the official notes.

Sure there were bugs that made it to open beta, what did you expect? There are still bugs in DDO that will never, ever get fixed. And yes they were, and will be exploited by a small group of low lifes. You'll always have cheaters try to find a hole .. all you can do is patch it and move on.

Cryptic came out strong today, there's no question. They fixed the game with very little repercussion to honest folk, which is the large majority of the playerbase. Many of the chuckle-heads whining on the NWO forum now are mostly passerbys that will be gone in a few days/weeks anyway.

I believe the thread you were referring to is this, which was not taken down:
Neverwinter Open Beta is now live. Log in and play now! (http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?162821-Neverwinter-Open-Beta-is-now-live-Log-in-and-play-now%21)


You are having a problem seeing the difference between Open and Live Chai. They are not semantics in this case. They felt the game was not ready to lose the beta tag. There will be a major announcement when it does finally reaches "released" phase. But you will never see it no matter how many times you are told. You'll just believe what you want, and in the thick of things, thats ok. The rest of us will move on. I know I will, work calls! ;)

Then whats the difference between open and live? Ive asked this three times now. You keep trying to tell me Im having an issue seeing the difference. Whats that difference? Please elaborate.

Yes Im aware they claim this only happened on Sunday. The people who closed beta tested it reported it in february. I have even re-sent them the PM I sent back then to confirm this. The major concern at the time was that the shards being mailed were not being taken off someones account. They obviously didnt fix the issue. This also happened in STO, and they didnt fix it there either.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 10:26 AM
I frequently excuse the lack of quality we get in MMORPGs these days (including DDO's) because they are also cheaper than ever and I am used to quality and costs of a product to be directly related. However, I draw the line at cheap excuses and broken promises and so far Crytpic has not exactly lived up to much of what they said about their game or its open beta stage. Simply put, I pay five bucks for an all you can eat buffet I do not expect to be greeted by highly trained wait-staff and served with award winning food. But if you promise me a steak prepared to order, then serve me a slab of ground beef and call it an award winning steak in beta I will leave your restaurant.

Cryptic never promised the game was complete. They have said they were having a live open beta from the Summer '12. None of this is new. If you were a founder member, you get everything you paid for - actually more. There were no promises of a complete game. No one is entitled to a thing more. It is what it is.

The game is not a perfectly aged T-bone, it still is in active development...

Chai
05-20-2013, 10:28 AM
Cryptic never promised the game was complete. They have said they were having a live open beta from the Summer '12. None of this is new. If you were a founder member, you get everything you paid for - actually more. There were no promises of a complete game. No one is entitled to a thing more. It is what it is.

So as long as they have a beta tag, anything that goes wrong is somehow just ok?

I still want to know: whats the difference between an open beta tag and a live tag in this situation. 4th time asking now. You keep saying theres a difference, but youre not saying what that difference is.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 10:41 AM
So as long as they have a beta tag, anything that goes wrong is somehow just ok?

I still want to know: whats the difference between an open beta tag and a live tag in this situation. 4th time asking now. You keep saying there's a difference, but youre not saying what that difference is.

You will ask many more times, I get that. Maybe someone else will take the time to explain it to you, over and over again Chai, but the facts wont change that the game is in open beta phase. Whether your definition of an open beta should be bug/exploit free or should or should not have a cash store or a Founders pack is all your opinion. A "live open beta" has been the terminology used since the very beginning. The difference is the fact that they feel they'd like to add more to the game - and fix more before it leaves beta phase. There is still stress testing and other types of testing which required larger sample size than closed beta phase offered. They feel the beta tag is warranted, and so do I.

The fact remains, and will remain until PW/Cryptic consider it otherwise (no matter how many times you jump up and down), that NWO is in open beta phase (and has been each day since 4/30).

Furthermore, when they finally shed the tag, and make the announcement that open beta is complete, the game should look, and feel much more tight than it does today.

cdbd3rd
05-20-2013, 10:50 AM
..... and opening ourselves up on the forums and various other channels to answer any and all questions we can.

...


Can you imagine the layers of asbestos they'll need to be wearing for that??

That's dedication to stand on the firing line for your product, though.


https://www.ddo.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.png

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 10:57 AM
Can you imagine the layers of asbestos they'll need to be wearing for that??

That's dedication to stand on the firing line for your product, though.


https://www.ddo.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.png

lol! I thought the same thing. I often wished communication would be that good here in DDO when it came time to defend the product.

Hey why is this thread so hot!? Isnt there anything cool going on in DDO worth talkin about anymore!!? :confused: :D

Chai
05-20-2013, 11:03 AM
You will ask many more times, I get that. Maybe someone else will take the time to explain it to you, over and over again Chai, but the facts wont change that the game is in open beta phase. Whether your definition of an open beta should be bug/exploit free or should or should not have a cash store or a Founders pack is all your opinion. A "live open beta" has been the terminology used since the very beginning. The difference is the fact that they feel they'd like to add more to the game - and fix more before it leaves beta phase. There is still stress testing and other types of testing which required larger sample size than closed beta phase offered. They feel the beta tag is warranted, and so do I.

The fact remains, and will remain until PW/Cryptic consider it otherwise (no matter how many times you jump up and down), that NWO is in open beta phase (and has been each day since 4/30).

Furthermore, when they finally shed the tag, and make the announcement that open beta is complete, the game should look, and feel much more tight than it does today.

So you will not explain the difference and being completely dismissive about it. Theres only one reason for that.

Because there is no difference.

The end result is the same. The terms open beta and live have the same meaning in the context of this situation. When the tag switches (again) it will be the same as any other business having a second grand opening.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 11:08 AM
So you will not explain the difference and being completely dismissive about it. Theres only one reason for that.

Because there is no difference.

The end result is the same. The terms open beta and live have the same meaning in the context of this situation. When the tag switches (again) it will be the same as any other business having a second grand opening.

Hahahahahah - 1st time in all these years I got stuck in your revolving door disputes, I've seen you do this to many others. I couldn't be any clearer.

"The difference is the fact that they feel they'd like to add more to the game - and fix more before it leaves beta phase."

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 11:29 AM
That said, I was pushing for 3-4 more classes to be added before the game moved to open beta... I didnt feel the game was ready just for this reason.. that people would get confused by the very definition of "live open beta". As soon as they announced it tho... I knew I had predicted it right in my original podcast in October '12. Its going to be a long open beta. I think we'll see the beta insignia until early 2014, but that right there is solely my own opinion

Chai
05-20-2013, 11:42 AM
Can you imagine the layers of asbestos they'll need to be wearing for that??

That's dedication to stand on the firing line for your product, though.


https://www.ddo.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.png

Yes, they are alot more forward than most other MMO companies on talking about the issues. They get on their forums and post about specific exploits (though they dont provide details on how to do them) - and also post the specific actions they have taken to put a stop to those antics. The "its not an exploit unless the company says it is" crowd wont be able to get away with their shenanigans inthat game managed by a company with a bolder strategy.

Beethoven
05-20-2013, 11:42 AM
That's dedication to stand on the firing line for your product, though.

Well, except for the part where every single gaming company out there made the exact promise on general basis, of opening themselves on forums and various channels to answer any and all questions they can. It's nothing new.

Cryptic already made that statement way back when they first created their forums. I suppose it is commendable they don't already withdraw their forums presence entirely after a few weeks. The statement in and of itself means little though, especially with Cryptics track record of closing threads for any negativity expressed.

I find it actually rather sad we arrived at a point where them answering questions on their forum is one of the most remarkable achievements to be mentioned in their defense.


Cryptic came out strong today, there's no question.


Personally, I could not disagree more. I am not after a long back and forth either. So, just going to conclude with what bothers me the most.

Turbine messes up (which they do too frequently enough), you usually get a variation of "we apologize" or "we are sorry for the inconvenience", but
* we failed to catch this before it goes life, or
* we did not anticipate this to happen.

Does it sometimes sound shallow? Sure. Do they come over like not really being as sorry as they should be? Totally. But at least they claim some responsibility for their mess.

Here is what Cryptic is saying and what I am reading:


In the dark hours of this Sunday morning an in-game bug was discovered and taken advantage of by a very small group of villainous Nashers intent on exploiting Neverwinters Open Beta Gateway and Auction House systems for unearned Astral Diamonds.

What I am not seeing in there is taking /any/ responsibility or accountability for what happened or some attempt of an apology. Instead it is all about pointing fingers at the evil, evil exploiters only.


Rather than let the malicious efforts of a few unsavory players linger and continually impact the games economy and balance as we progress through these later stages of Open Beta, we have made the extremely difficult decision to rollback Neverwinter to a time shortly before the abuse and exploitation began.

So, instead of even trying investigate who broke the rules and punish the offenders only, which would require time and effort from their side they just roll back the servers. Sure, it won't affect those exploiters who had the foresight of trading their ill-gotten Astral Shards into Zen and/or funneled their proceeds onto another game but at least it is quick and easy for Cryptic.

Then they try make sure yet again everyone understands this: Cryptic is not at fault here at all, it was all caused by devious actions of their evil players. So for any damages done to the innocent bystanders? They have the unsavory evil-doers to thank. Cryptic again does not take or want to take responsibility for this either.

It's because of the above and me getting the feeling that with everything that happened and is happening they consistently take the easy/lazy way out, stressing over and over again how it always is somebodies else' fault and never theirs that I cannot bring myself to continue support them as company.

As a customer I can forgive screw ups, I have a harder time coping if the company decides to instead of taking responsibility and paying at least lip service to better themselves they spend their time and effort in pointing fingers at everyone else. Sort of like in this statement:


Hey why is this thread so hot!? Isnt there anything cool going on in DDO worth talkin about anymore!!?

Chai
05-20-2013, 11:52 AM
Hahahahahah - 1st time in all these years I got stuck in your revolving door disputes, I've seen you do this to many others. I couldn't be any clearer.

"The difference is the fact that they feel they'd like to add more to the game - and fix more before it leaves beta phase."




The "fact?" Nope. By that definition, no game is ever out of beta, until they release their last update. They actually came out and stated otherwise a few days ago and then turned around and redacted their statements when these 2 major issues came to a point where they could no longer allow them to slide.

The issue here, as I pointed out, is not the game or the company, its the appologists who use the term "beta" as a blanket excuse to let just about anything short of a complete game meltdown slide, and plow onto their forums telling anyone else who doesnt like it they can leave. Ive also noted that on reddit, many of those who have posted such an attitude are those receiving the banhammer. PW wasnt dumb enough to fall for the fanboi-ish posts as many of those posts were made by the exploiters themselves.

AlmGhandi
05-20-2013, 01:18 PM
It is a Bonus XP Weekend... do you not have something better to do with your time?
No wonder People are complaining about disappearing LFMs..

Absolution_40
05-20-2013, 01:23 PM
I am sure Cryptic will take into account the opinions of such astute posters as the ones that have posted in this thread. Since the are never right about problems in DDO it is rational to think they will have a grasp of issues in Neverwinter.

debo
05-20-2013, 02:06 PM
The DDO devs deserve some praise for never making a bug as bad as the one on Neverwinter right now.

You can make a bid on the Neverwinter auction house for a negative number. And if your negative number is bigger than any positive number, you win the item and GET THAT AMOUNT OF CURRENCY MAILED TO YOU!

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

The economy there is so screwed.

Bid -50,000,000 on an item and you get the item and 50 million mailed to you!!!! haahhahahahah

Then you take those millions of astral diamonds (the ingame currency) and you buy Zen (the real $ currency) on the Zen exchange.

One person bought $90,000 worth of the Zen currency in a couple hours last night.



So grats to the DDO devs for never ever ever ever screwing up that bad!

That is not completely true. I give the creators of neverwinter much praise for actually admitting to the fact of the exploit. Transparency like that is what makes a company great.

I won't get into specifics but there was a game breaking bug in ddo that was only known to a few. Then came those 4 days of downtime that was called "maintenance/ billing upgrades". When the game came back up after those 4 days, 2/5 people who supposedly used that game breaking bug were banned and the game breaking bug was fixed.

It's really easy for me to tell you I broke my leg climbing a tree and I was 30 feet into the air when I fell. When in reality I was walking and didn't tie my shoe laces and I tripped over my own feet.

When a company like perfectworld actually relates to the playerbase a true issue and isn't ashamed of it and prepared to hide it shows how that company deserves praise for being of high integrity.

Aurora1979
05-20-2013, 02:09 PM
There was an admin post, they took it down the minute they re-upped all the beta logos ion the site. Ive been in all the alphas and betas since july of last year.

Screen shot? Or it didn't happen, right?

Personally, I see it as 6 of one half a dozen of another.

Anyone standing up for turbine claiming they are whiter then white has issues.

NW bug means the victim loses an item they put on the AH, the perp "wins" lots of in game curency which can then be converted into RL cash.

This is obviously a bad bug and need correcting.

The economy in game could suffer and it is clearly an exploit. BUT, the victim has lost a few pixles and the plat associated with the lost sale.

Look at Turbines recent, charging for many moths subs.

They did make refunds but some people went a couple of days with no money in their real life bank account!!!

These bugs/ exploits are not even comparable. One mucks up the game and causes some inconvienance for most, and real life profit for the few.

Turbines muck up meant people having to go to banks to explain, speak to creditors to tell them why the payment was missed, borrow money of friends and family for food/ utilities.

I think its quite blinded to think neverwinter is the worse of the two offenders.

Although, obviously, neither situation should really of happened, but if I HAD to choose to be the victim of one I know which one I would choose.

I would rather someone got my X item of awesomesauce that should of made me 1 million AD's for free than have my child go 1 day with no nappies/ dinner etc. Remember, not everyone has family or friends able to bail them out.

xXbikergirlXx
05-20-2013, 02:20 PM
It is a Bonus XP Weekend... do you not have something better to do with your time?
No wonder People are complaining about disappearing LFMs..

Although this thread has kept me very amused whilst having short breaks from actually playing.....this above really made me laugh!!! /+!

Beethoven
05-20-2013, 02:52 PM
That is not completely true. I give the creators of neverwinter much praise for actually admitting to the fact of the exploit. Transparency like that is what makes a company great.

Yeah, that too only would mean something if they admitted to it before the exploit became so common knowledge that it not only was freely talked about on in-game channels but spawned an own internet meme, not after.

What transparency? They acknowledged it after it could not possibly be concealed anymore either and everyone and their monkey knew about it already anyway.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-20-2013, 03:15 PM
Yeah. No mistakes ever made by turbine. Nothing to see here.

I never said they made no mistakes. Why are you being so dishonest about this discussion? Most of what you cried about in your previous post is not bugs, but rather things you don't like. Why don't you take those comments to a different thread and stay on the topic of bug severity in this one.

Hokiewa
05-20-2013, 03:21 PM
Very amusing that somebody in this thread is referring to Neverwinter as NWO when it clearly is not. I guess they didn't sit in at that briefing

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-20-2013, 03:23 PM
When a company like perfectworld actually relates to the playerbase a true issue and isn't ashamed of it and prepared to hide it shows how that company deserves praise for being of high integrity.

What a completely mind boggling thing to say?! How exactly could they have kept it secret that every valuable item on the AH had a huge negative number as the current bid?

How exactly could they hide the fact that global chat was spammed continuously with people giving away the most expensive mount?

How exactly could they have hidden the fact that the cost of buying Zen with AD had shot up to the max allowable and even still all Zen sold out?

It is ludicrous to suggest that owning up to those glaring issues was some saintly act on their part that they did not have to do.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-20-2013, 03:26 PM
I would rather someone got my X item of awesomesauce that should of made me 1 million AD's for free than have my child go 1 day with no nappies/ dinner etc. Remember, not everyone has family or friends able to bail them out.

I could never agree with that. If you are skating the line that close to not be able to feed your kids then what the heck are you doing spending any amount of money on video games?

Those stories are either:

1) Totally fabricated BS
2) Examples of terrible parenting.

Aurora1979
05-20-2013, 03:40 PM
I could never agree with that. If you are skating the line that close to not be able to feed your kids then what the heck are you doing spending any amount of money on video games?

Those stories are either:

1) Totally fabricated BS
2) Examples of terrible parenting.

I wouldn't intentionally skate the line that close either. I'm not VIP so it didn't affect me. From what those affected DID report though they were being charged a years worth of subs.... I don't even know how much a sub is but if it was nearing the end of the month and someone took... say £150 from my bank account they yea, that would wipe me out and leave me short.

That is not the same as treading a fine line and spending too much money on gaming though.

Your associations don't really match. Not everyone has savings in their account. Most people actually do come close to skint by the end of the month. The recessions hitting lots of people hard and losing a hundred quid or more in one hit could easily cause problems.

To be fair though, you are an avid supporter and defender of Turbine, we have seen that in the past. I'm not having a go, I'm not categorising you with names or anything. You are entitled to place your support wherever you feel.

I have backed Tub's and criticised them. I would say that I thought the neverwinter bug/ exploit was worse if I thought it was but, as a victim, one only affects you in-game with fictional items the other could cause real life financial issues that at best need explaining to other, official people like banks, and at worst could cause further (short term) costs.

Charononus
05-20-2013, 03:44 PM
Sad thing is from the rumors I've heard there is a worse exploit out still currently. I'm to chicken to test it, but I've heard rumors that a third party app for hacking single player games works on neverwinter. Not going to name the program on an open forum though even if it's for another game.

Missing_Minds
05-20-2013, 03:48 PM
The game is not a perfectly aged T-bone, it still is in active development...
Quite frankly, any MMO that is not in active development is either dead or closing.

Also, as soon as you hook up a game to LIVE cash systems, I find that Beta is no longer applicable, it is live. Unless representatives of Cryptic/PW want to admit that NWO is making money off of being a broken/incomplete product currently and that consumers have only themselves to blame for buying into a broken/incomplete product because it is "beta".

debo
05-20-2013, 03:57 PM
What a completely mind boggling thing to say?! How exactly could they have kept it secret that every valuable item on the AH had a huge negative number as the current bid?

How exactly could they hide the fact that global chat was spammed continuously with people giving away the most expensive mount?

How exactly could they have hidden the fact that the cost of buying Zen with AD had shot up to the max allowable and even still all Zen sold out?

It is ludicrous to suggest that owning up to those glaring issues was some saintly act on their part that they did not have to do.


Just the fact that they admitted there was a problem makes them praise worthy. They could have gone the way of other games and said because of errors in there billing upgrade system the game had to be taken down.

Sure just like any other game, "We" as players will always know exploits and find them out first, and then they spread like the plaque. But just the fact that perfectworld even acknowledges it puts them a step higher in my opinion then companies that hide it from there paying player base who is powered by the fans.


Lol Missing Minds that's like a reference to facebook games that are in perpetual beta, but also have "costing" features.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 04:04 PM
Quite frankly, any MMO that is not in active development is either dead or closing.

Also, as soon as you hook up a game to LIVE cash systems, I find that Beta is no longer applicable, it is live. Unless representatives of Cryptic/PW want to admit that NWO is making money off of .... "beta".

Hello!! Thats exactly what they have said all along. A "completed game" was not a line item in the Founders pack. Everyone knew buying in they were buying a game that was very much still in beta... in fact at that time it offered access to closed beta. To this day, they haven't tied in a guarantee of game phase into the Founders Packs or any other offer. That was never a condition. Many people buy founders packs solely to support the work of the designers. Legally, you are only buying the items mentioned in the offer.

http://nw.perfectworld.com/founderspack

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 04:08 PM
The "fact?" Nope. By that definition, no game is ever out of beta, until they release their last update. They actually came out and stated otherwise a few days ago and then turned around and redacted their statements when these 2 major issues came to a point where they could no longer allow them to slide.

The issue here, as I pointed out, is not the game or the company, its the appologists who use the term "beta" as a blanket excuse to let just about anything short of a complete game meltdown slide, and plow onto their forums telling anyone else who doesnt like it they can leave. Ive also noted that on reddit, many of those who have posted such an attitude are those receiving the banhammer. PW wasnt dumb enough to fall for the fanboi-ish posts as many of those posts were made by the exploiters themselves.

You are dreaming there Chai. Apologiests? Are they like conspiracy theorists!?

How can you be so confused about the definition of "open beta" how it applies in this case?

Here maybe this will clear things up for ya,, heh enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=461KdHiewIM

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 04:18 PM
Quite frankly, any MMO that is not in active development is either dead or closing.

Yes, indeed. But a development company (or publisher, in this case PW) that decides when they consider the game in beta or not. They have been clear all along. (And this comes from someone who gave them hell for what I perceived to be poor marketing in all of 2012, right on their public forums.)

You know what, I'll pose this question to them on the next episode of the NOCS, but its a silly question to waste much time on... (yet it'll still be good for a couple of laughs).

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-20-2013, 04:21 PM
To be fair though, you are an avid supporter and defender of Turbine, we have seen that in the past. I'm not having a go, I'm not categorising you with names or anything. You are entitled to place your support wherever you feel.

That is an incredibly dishonest characterization of my posting history.

The only thing that I defend is the truth. When I see someone make a post that claims something as true when I know that it is false or when it is clearly something that they can't possibly know to be true, but rather only imagine it to be true, I point that out.

If you care to take the time to check my posting history in the vast majority of cases I make no statement whatsoever on either side of the issue being raised. Rather I make a comment pertaining to whether or not the person making a particular claim can actually know if what they are saying is true or not.

Sadly, people all too frequently knee jerk themselves into imagining that I am making my comments in an effort to defend Turbine. When my comments in fact frequently contain absolutely no statements in favor of or against Turbine. They are instead an attempt to highlight a poster's failure to support the claims they are making.

This thread is discussing how severe I feel the bug in Neverwinter is relative to the bugs that have appeared in DDO.

It does not provide any information whatsover about how upset I have been about any of the bugs in DDO. Nor should anyone imagine that any such information exists herein.

Chai
05-20-2013, 04:47 PM
Yes, indeed. But a development company (or publisher, in this case PW) that decides when they consider the game in beta or not. They have been clear all along. (And this comes from someone who gave them hell for what I perceived to be poor marketing in all of 2012, right on their public forums.)

You know what, I'll pose this question to them on the next episode of the NOCS, but its a silly question to waste much time on... (yet it'll still be good for a couple of laughs).

Already asked them. They stated they feel beta and live are the same thing, save for the intention to put more attention on content creation than bug fixes for the time being.

This is literally stating they put out an unfinished product, which they knew the entire time.

Chai
05-20-2013, 04:53 PM
You are dreaming there Chai. Apologiests? Are they like conspiracy theorists!?

How can you be so confused about the definition of "open beta" how it applies in this case?

Here maybe this will clear things up for ya,, heh enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=461KdHiewIM

I am not the one confused about the definition of open beta. It is a semantic adjective that means absolutelty nothing to anyone else other than the company, and a small number of people who will use "its in beta so its OK" as an excuse even if PW caused the third world war, LOL (hence the term apologists). THey toss this stuff around like its a blanket license to screw up the game free of consequences, which the users will not continue to pay for. You see, once they started taking money from people, the word beta holds no meaning when something gets hosed to the point where it devalues the product people paid for.

To a paying customer there is no difference between open beta and live. Once they took money, they must deliver what was promised for that payment in the customers eyes. And in case youre not up on your marketing 101, the customers are the most important people in that equation.

Aurora1979
05-20-2013, 05:00 PM
That is an incredibly dishonest characterization of my posting history.

The only thing that I defend is the truth. When I see someone make a post that claims something as true when I know that it is false or when it is clearly something that they can't possibly know to be true, but rather only imagine it to be true, I point that out.

If you care to take the time to check my posting history in the vast majority of cases I make no statement whatsoever on either side of the issue being raised. Rather I make a comment pertaining to whether or not the person making a particular claim can actually know if what they are saying is true or not.

Sadly, people all too frequently knee jerk themselves into imagining that I am making my comments in an effort to defend Turbine. When my comments in fact frequently contain absolutely no statements in favor of or against Turbine. They are instead an attempt to highlight a poster's failure to support the claims they are making.

This thread is discussing how severe I feel the bug in Neverwinter is relative to the bugs that have appeared in DDO.

It does not provide any information whatsover about how upset I have been about any of the bugs in DDO. Nor should anyone imagine that any such information exists herein.

Wow, thats a really long post not at all responding to the topic at hand which made up the majority of the post you quoted.

Maybe I should have added, in my opinion, but thats how it is for the paragraph you quoted. We will leave it there and not derail further.

As for the actual point, we disagree with the severity. That is nothing to do with previous posting habits.

That is largely because you feel that having actual real life money taken out of your bank account is not as serious and that if it happens to someone it is, somehow, their fault for living on the breadline and not having enough to cover internet companies overcharging.

Whereas I feel that, while it may well have damaged the in-game economy of neverwinter, losing a pixilated item and having a game economy crash is far less serious.

Beethoven
05-20-2013, 05:07 PM
I wouldn't intentionally skate the line that close either. I'm not VIP so it didn't affect me. From what those affected DID report though they were being charged a years worth of subs

Actually, roughly a year worth of subs and another customer got charged ten times for a point purchase. The (four) affected parties had been overcharged by roughly a hundred bucks. Turbine did refund the money though and agreed to carry and all surcharges.

You realize there have been complaints for wrong and erroneous charges filed also against both Cryptic and Perfect World and in half the cases customers complained Cryptic and PWE refused to pay surcharges? It is horrible what happened, but lets no pretend these things never happened to them.



Just the fact that they admitted there was a problem makes them praise worthy. They could have gone the way of other games and said because of errors in there billing upgrade system the game had to be taken down.

Yes, they truly have shown their integrity by only remaining silent until they no longer could sweep it under the rug. It is about as commendable as their fast reaction to a bug that directly costs them money. Please, name one case where a bug/exploit Turbine did not acknowledge /after/ it hit the gaming press?

You are pretending there haven't been other, less known exploits/bugs Cryptic hasn't fixed, quietly and behind the scenes without public announcement. That's wrong too. Personally, I know of at least two cases where exactly that happened. Seriously, they average how much down time these days? Thrice a week? What do you think they are doing when they take the game down?

You really want to go into the topic of integrity then you may want to explain how the BBB rates Cryptic as F, Perfect World as F and Turbine as A+?

7-day_Trial_Monkey
05-20-2013, 05:16 PM
That is largely because you feel that having actual real life money taken out of your bank account is not as serious and that if it happens to someone it is, somehow, their fault for living on the breadline and not having enough to cover internet companies overcharging.

The highlighted part directly contradicts what I have previously said.

When talking about that specific bug I made a reference to the difference in the number of people affected.

The number of people hit with that bug in DDO was very low.

I consider that to be a very significant point. And because of that I do not feel it elevates the severity enough to say it's worse than what happened in Neverwinter over the past few days.

Having money wrongly taken out of people's accounts is a terrible thing. However we are not talking about all VIPs, we are talking about just a few. The difference in scale is significant and your characterization of my opinion which completely ignores the fact that I addressed that issue of scale is entirely dishonest.

Aurora1979
05-20-2013, 05:29 PM
I could never agree with that. If you are skating the line that close to not be able to feed your kids then what the heck are you doing spending any amount of money on video games?


I don't think it does contradict.



That is largely because you feel that having actual real life money taken out of your bank account is not as serious and that if it happens to someone it is, somehow, their fault for living on the breadline and not having enough to cover internet companies overcharging.


The highlighted part directly contradicts what I have previously said.

When talking about that specific bug I made a reference to the difference in the number of people affected.

The number of people hit with that bug in DDO was very low.

I consider that to be a very significant point. And because of that I do not feel it elevates the severity enough to say it's worse than what happened in Neverwinter over the past few days.

Having money wrongly taken out of people's accounts is a terrible thing. However we are not talking about all VIPs, we are talking about just a few. The difference in scale is significant and your characterization of my opinion which completely ignores the fact that I addressed that issue of scale is entirely dishonest.

Ok, so we debate the numbers affected.It may have been a few in DDO and many in neverwinter. But still, the fact that one affects "me" in real life and one affects "me" in-game is the important factor, to me.

If you gave me a choice between losing the entire game, all my characters, all their items and not being able to log in at all until the servers were rolled back.

Or

Have £100 taken from my account unannounced at a random time when it could leave me very short, which however would still be sorted and reimbursed.

I would still choose the first one. That has a far lesser effect on my real life. Both situations have been/ will be sorted, and NEITHER are acceptable, or good to have (just want to be clear I'm not undermining the neverwinter bug in that it is fine and dandy or anything).

But the one that gives problems in game is less of a bother to me than the one that gives problems out of game.

I had a bank take too much money out, it was their fault and they admitted that and sorted it eventually, but that took a week for them to get back to my creditors etc... it was a stressful 7 odd days.

I wouldn't want to go through it again and losing items in game doesn't affect me as bad.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 05:32 PM
You really want to go into the topic of integrity then you may want to explain how the BBB rates Cryptic as F, Perfect World as F and Turbine as A+?

I'll take that one. BBB ranking doesnt tell the whole story, it never did, and especially so in the age of the internet where anyone can post a review/complaint. BBB lists 6 complaints for billing throughout all their games in the last 3 years. Only 1 complaint was never resolved out of 49 in three years. In the last year Cryptic dealt with 5 complaints, zero issues with billing. Last billing complaint was back on 02/21/2012.

Turbine had 127 complaints in 3 years, more than double. 10 of them were related to billing. In the last 12 months Turbine was hit with 30 complaints, six times the amount of Cryptic.

These ratings tells me Cryptic deals with more whiners than Turbine does, but not dealing with any real concern... just opinions. When it comes to real monetary concerns, both companies have taken care of business, in almost every case.

http://www.bbb.org/boston/business-reviews/video-games-wholesale-and-manufacturers/turbine-inc-in-needham-hgts-ma-81889

http://www.bbb.org/sanjose/business-reviews/video-games-dealers/cryptic-studios-in-los-gatos-ca-221613

Chai
05-20-2013, 05:47 PM
I'll take that one. BBB ranking doesnt tell the whole story, it never did, and especially so in the age of the internet where anyone can post a review/complaint. BBB lists 6 complaints for billing throughout all their games in the last 3 years. Only 1 complaint was never resolved out of 49 in three years. In the last year Cryptic dealt with 5 complaints, zero issues with billing. Last billing complaint was back on 02/21/2012.

Turbine had 127 complaints in 3 years, more than double. 10 of them were related to billing. In the last 12 months Turbine was hit with 30 complaints, six times the amount of Cryptic.

These ratings tells me Cryptic deals with more whiners than Turbine does, but not dealing with any real concern... just opinions. When it comes to real monetary concerns, both companies have taken care of business, in almost every case.

http://www.bbb.org/boston/business-reviews/video-games-wholesale-and-manufacturers/turbine-inc-in-needham-hgts-ma-81889

http://www.bbb.org/sanjose/business-reviews/video-games-dealers/cryptic-studios-in-los-gatos-ca-221613

The BBB rating is heavily influenced by whether or not the complaint was resolved. This is why company A can have alot of complaints and have a higher grade than company B who has less, because if company B doesnt resolve their complaints they will have the lower grade.

Cryptic /PW deals with alot of countries that have far better consumer protection laws than here in the US as well. If people post a complaint, and PW denies them a refund, they can basically just call their card company and do a chargeback declaring that what was bought was not delivered, and this will look far worse on their business rating.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 06:14 PM
Cryptic /PW deals with alot of countries that have far better consumer protection laws than here in the US as well. If people post a complaint, and PW denies them a refund, they can basically just call their card company and do a chargeback declaring that what was bought was not delivered, and this will look far worse on their business rating.

Chargebacks can also look bad on consumers though... and do far more damage. Both companies here have done a wonderful handling money if they dealt with so few complaints in the millions of gamers that use/play their products.

The few complaints that the BBB took, a minute percentage had a problem with money. The truth is, and I'm a lifelong fan of the BBB, the BBB has turned into a forum every bit like an internet forum due to the advent of them accepting internet based complaints. You cannot paint a true picture of the two companies by looking solely at those two reports.

Beethoven
05-20-2013, 07:25 PM
I'll take that one. BBB ranking doesnt tell the whole story, it never did, and especially so in the age of the internet where anyone can post a review/complaint. BBB lists 6 complaints for billing throughout all their games in the last 3 years.

I'd agree with your assessment if we'd be talking about a difference between A to B or B to C, but A+ to F? Please.

Also, it is besides the point since I was bringing the whole thing up mostly to show both companies (Turbine and Cryptic) had bad things<tm> happen in the past with their billings. Six people going so far to file complaints with the BBB proofs that no one ever had billing issues with Cryptic how again?


These ratings tells me Cryptic deals with more whiners than Turbine does, but not dealing with any real concern.

You serious? Yeah, the DDO forums are totally filled with mindlessly devoted fans. What are you saying? That if someone complaints about Turbine they voice a real concern, but if someone complaints about something with Cryptic they are merely whining?


The few complaints that the BBB took, a minute percentage had a problem with money.

That's another good example.

Turbine had a billing issue that caused a problem for four! people (of which two caused a stink). That's a huge issue and totally proof how worse the company is.
Cryptic had issues with billing in the past but because it only affected a minute percentage of their customers it doesn't really count.

Please, tell me you can see how silly this is starting to get because I really used to have a lot of respect for your opinions.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-20-2013, 07:58 PM
I'd agree with your assessment if we'd be talking about a difference between A to B or B to C, but A+ to F? Please.

Also, it is besides the point since I was bringing the whole thing up mostly to show both companies (Turbine and Cryptic) had bad things<tm> happen in the past with their billings. Six people going so far to file complaints with the BBB proofs that no one ever had billing issues with Cryptic how again?



You serious? Yeah, the DDO forums are totally filled with mindlessly devoted fans. What are you saying? That if someone complaints about Turbine they voice a real concern, but if someone complaints about something with Cryptic they are merely whining?



That's another good example.

Turbine had a billing issue that caused a problem for four! people (of which two caused a stink). That's a huge issue and totally proof how worse the company is.
Cryptic had issues with billing in the past but because it only affected a minute percentage of their customers it doesn't really count.


Look at those reports again. How many customers do you think Cryptic and Turbine serviced in the past 12 months? How many overall complaints did they get? How many were billing issues?

Both companies had problems, both showed improvements, but considering that you and I actually have a good handle on how many issues make it to the company websites alone, those are awfully low numbers of folks that took it as far as the BBB. That means to me that both companies have handled an aweful lot of complaints. The BBB are simply the ones they let get away... That small a sample does not define a company's integrity. There's many many other criteria that comes into play, at least for me anyway.

As for whiners, trust me when I tell you, as bad as we've seen it in DDO-land, its nothing compared to other gaming sites out there. DDO is a great community, NWO also is a great community, but deal with a younger demographic many of which have a different way of communicating. Whats so interesting with the NWO community however, and this is largely because its a D&D poduct, is that there is a very loyal group of old farts like me on there!! But I digress ;)


Please, tell me you can see how silly this is starting to get because I really used to have a lot of respect for your opinions.

I bet anything if we were having this convo in person, we'd be shaking hands at the end of it.

Sometimes forums arent the best place for getting your point across, hell I'm getting a headache just typing to you (not because of you but because of our new upgraded Grey & White website).

Either way, I still respect you for your opinions, including this one. I just think we are nitpicking on the reports and think we are closer than you might think on frustrations with DDO and Neverwinter.

TheNewSlarden
05-20-2013, 11:01 PM
Now that I've had some time to digest this bug and the way it resolved, I am reasonably satisfied that PW made the best call given the nature and extent of the bug involved. There is a bit of a heated debate at the moment. Some people want a complete server wipe and others are upset that 7 hours of gameplay were rolled back. Most are like me and seem satisfied with how it was resolved.

One bit of irony is that during the downtime from this rather massive bug, Neverwinter "likes" on their facebook page went up rather fast - even passing up DDO which had a 100,000 like headstart. I don't know what facebook likes really mean, but I assume it correlates roughly the size of the fanbase.

It's great to see both D&D MMOs with over 100k facebook likes and 2 terrific (albeit flawed) products.

I don't really understand the exploit or how it impacted the game economy, but the game is just as fun for me today as it was yesterday. The exploit is really a non-issue for me.

I am happy with how the issue was handled. There was frequent and relevant communication by the devs.

ForumAccess
05-21-2013, 01:23 AM
The difference is the fact that they feel they'd like to add more to the game - and fix more before it leaves beta phase. There is still stress testing and other types of testing which required larger sample size than closed beta phase offered. They feel the beta tag is warranted, and so do I.

This would be valid, if they were doing wipes at the end of the beta phase. The fact that they are running the cash shop and not wiping characters makes the choice of terms nothing more than weaseling out of responsibility, though.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-21-2013, 03:22 AM
weaseling out of responsibility

Weasle? They are running a business. They always said they were going to take this path. People knew for months that a live open beta would follow closed beta. They are making bug fixes and making changes on an almost daily basis. They test and code every day. They also update the community on a regular basis and are clearly workin hard.

An important part of responsibility to me is communication with the playerbase. During the dowtime, there was a constant presence and non-stop tweets. And I mean non-stop. The longest pause I saw was ten minutes, which was mostly related to waiting on other parties to confirm information before they released it to the public. The twitter->facebook->forums->internal update cycle was impressive to watch from my vantage point.

Again DDO is my favorite game, by a longshot, and I truly have a ton of respect for the peeps at Turbine (to me its never ddo vs nwo), but when did we ever see updates every 10 minutes during any downtime, none the less something as large as this??

Say the game sucks, but dont say they are weasling responsibility. There's a lot of misinformation that was broadcast -- Exploit found exploit defeated and they caught who they needed to catch. In very very short order with minimal impact to the game economy (which is already back to normal) or 99.99999% of the player population.

Osharan_Tregarth
05-21-2013, 03:57 AM
Turbine did a great job in a much easier environment 7 years ago, but still was privy to game braking exploits eventually. If DDO was "the new shiny" today, it would have been broken the same way Neverwinter is now.



As someone who's played DDO since the 10 day beta access I got for preordering the game, I can positively attest that game breaking exploits have been present in DDO since(at a minimum) when the very first raid came out. I wouldn't really qualify that as "eventually". I'm pretty sure there were some zero day game breaking exploits, but I can't confirm those from my experience in parties, only from second hand sources.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-21-2013, 04:07 AM
As someone who's played DDO since the 10 day beta access I got for preordering the game, I can positively attest that game breaking exploits have been present in DDO since(at a minimum) when the very first raid came out. I wouldn't really qualify that as "eventually". I'm pretty sure there were some zero day game breaking exploits, but I can't confirm those from my experience in parties, only from second hand sources.

Yeah but remember, I've been around as long as well, and I was personally impressed with how well Turbine held it together in the early days. Sure there were exploits, but they fixed them all before they broke the game back in the first 2-3 years (or we wouldnt be here now). Again, its not DDO vs NWO for me. I like both games and respect both developers. My only point though was if DDO came out in today's market, the exploiting lowlifes would be poking the same holes in DDO that they did NWO. There were lots of duping going on in those days, but Turbine got a handle on matters much quicker then much of the competition did.

Chai
05-21-2013, 07:21 AM
Chargebacks can also look bad on consumers though... and do far more damage. Both companies here have done a wonderful handling money if they dealt with so few complaints in the millions of gamers that use/play their products.

The few complaints that the BBB took, a minute percentage had a problem with money. The truth is, and I'm a lifelong fan of the BBB, the BBB has turned into a forum every bit like an internet forum due to the advent of them accepting internet based complaints. You cannot paint a true picture of the two companies by looking solely at those two reports.

Then how did PW/Cryptic get a far worse grade?

One can pretty solidly objective paint a picture of how those companies handle serious customer disputes by looking at BBB reports. The reason why people get so dismissive of this is because they never had a serious subjective customer dispute, combined with dismissing all issues the company has by using the adjective "beta" to allow them unlimited license to take money while not delivering what was paid for.

And no, chargebacks do not damage the consumer unless they have a pattern based habit. Many European countries have far better consumer protection laws than the US, where people can screw up your credit uncontested on 3 different reports simply over a personal dispute. If something is declared not fit for purpose, chargebacks cannot be held against them.

Missing_Minds
05-21-2013, 09:34 AM
Chargebacks can also look bad on consumers though... and do far more damage.
More damage? Not really. The consumer only has itself and family to worry about. Companies have employees (and hence their families) let alone stock holders (when appropriate).

What follows is something I saved off from a post I never made a while back, but the damage aspect is still appropriate.

------------------------------

While trying to figure out some legalese terms I stumbled across this.

setup: Gold farming was a lot more obvious back in the day, but as a player the only aspect I ever thought about was how it was messing with the game economy.

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Real_world_trading

Subsection: RWT Criminal Behavior

"Perhaps the most significant issue that Jagex had to directly face was the use of stolen credit cards being used to pay for membership fees by RWT organisations. The credit card information was obtained from other criminal activities and then used to help pay for the gold farmer accounts on member worlds... where after a certain period of time it would be reported that the card was stolen. When this happens, the "vendor" (in this case Jagex) is required by the credit card agreements to "pay back" the charges that were not authorized by the legitimate account holder. This issue very directly impacted Jagex from a fiscal standpoint, and represented a significant loss of income for Jagex as a company. It is usually up to the "vendor" to try and recover the money if they can, but considering most of these RWT companies are well outside of the jurisdiction of a UK court there is little chance of actually recovering this money or even finding out who is responsible for the charges.

According to Jagex:

What ultimately proved to be the final breaking point for Jagex was when several of the banks that provided the credit card processing services for Jagex started to charge a much higher processing fee due to the excessive number of charge-backs that were happening compared to other internet-based companies. It should be noted that Jagex wasn't necessarily singled out individually, as nearly all on-line gaming companies have had to address this issue to one extent or another. In addition, these banks threatened to completely cut off these financial services, report Jagex to various credit bureaus as a fraudulent enterprise, and issued an ultimatum that Jagex had to get the RWT issue under control. Quite literally, the very existence of Jagex as a company was threatened and had anti-RWT policies and game changes not been enacted, RuneScape as a game would no longer exist either. "

Osharan_Tregarth
05-21-2013, 12:03 PM
Yeah but remember, I've been around as long as well, and I was personally impressed with how well Turbine held it together in the early days. Sure there were exploits, but they fixed them all before they broke the game back in the first 2-3 years (or we wouldnt be here now). Again, its not DDO vs NWO for me. I like both games and respect both developers. My only point though was if DDO came out in today's market, the exploiting lowlifes would be poking the same holes in DDO that they did NWO. There were lots of duping going on in those days, but Turbine got a handle on matters much quicker then much of the competition did.

Well, we're not allowed to talk about any specifics, but I'll just say that some of these items persist to this very day, and leave it at that.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-21-2013, 01:23 PM
Well, we're not allowed to talk about any specifics, but I'll just say that some of these items persist to this very day, and leave it at that.

Sadly, you are correct. Back in the day they did it for sport, now its done many times because it's their only job.

As far as Cryptic goes, the jury is still out how they will handle cheaters. Just too early to tell, however compared to past experiences in other games, it seems they have learned a lot and are engaging their entire team to address each and every bug/exploit they can. They've made 10 patches in the last 20 days, that's a whole lot of fixes, so as long as they stay active and vigilant, they'll remain above water and keep the majority of the honest folks engaged and happy.

Just like in DDO here, guilds are the strength of the game over there. On average it seems those are the ones really stick around and support a game like ours (DDO & NWO).

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-21-2013, 01:51 PM
More damage? Not really. The consumer only has itself and family to worry about. Companies have employees (and hence their families) let alone stock holders (when appropriate).

What follows is something I saved off from a post I never made a while back, but the damage aspect is still appropriate.

Absolutely. Cant minimize the impact to companies. Its just that as a current small business owner, I can tell you 1st hand that many folks dont have a clue what a chargeback can do to your credit and buying power. It be listed as an unpaid balance on your credit report and dissuade businesses from lending to you. In today's market, where its so hard to get credit, banks are looking for any reason not to lend to you. Have a few blemishes, a few chargeback on your file, that paints a picture. Bad customers = bad credit risk.

Missing_Minds
05-21-2013, 02:19 PM
Absolutely. Cant minimize the impact to companies. Its just that as a current small business owner,
Ah, now that paints a different picture. Most of us are just grunts at companies so we don't have such worries.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-21-2013, 02:33 PM
Ah, now that paints a different picture. Most of us are just grunts at companies so we don't have such worries.

Nah man we are all grunts, we all cater to others wants and needs or we are broke. Dig this: "Being good in business is the most fascinating kind of art. Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art."- Andy Warhol.

Charononus
05-22-2013, 06:14 AM
Well it's confirmed now. Neverwinter has an even worse bug than the AH bug in concept now. They store multiple character variables client side instead of server side during gameplay. That means that "hacking" programs can change these values to create a "god" mode of play. It's pretty standard that you don't give the client anything like this in a mmo because there are always exploiters and hackers and sadly I don't know if this is even a bug that could be easily fixed as it involves changing a lot of variables in client server communication.

Flavilandile
05-22-2013, 11:28 AM
Well it's confirmed now. Neverwinter has an even worse bug than the AH bug in concept now. They store multiple character variables client side instead of server side during gameplay. That means that "hacking" programs can change these values to create a "god" mode of play. It's pretty standard that you don't give the client anything like this in a mmo because there are always exploiters and hackers and sadly I don't know if this is even a bug that could be easily fixed as it involves changing a lot of variables in client server communication.

I stumbled across the source code for one such program this morning... Now I have looked hard for DDO tools ( like a DAT defragmenter that works. Yes DAT files are fragmented, despite everything they say ) and there's almost zilch, nada, nothing to be found.

Chai
05-22-2013, 05:45 PM
Infinite Stamina is the first one after the rollback people are seeing abused. This is geting more and more hilarious by the day.

Charononus
05-22-2013, 05:57 PM
Infinite Stamina is the first one after the rollback people are seeing abused. This is geting more and more hilarious by the day.

It's not just stamina that's there. I went in with cheat engine after reading about it. There is a bunch of stuff client side. Stamina is just the only one someone has made a third party program to exploit so far.

Ausdoerrt
05-23-2013, 04:44 AM
Let's see, has DDO never seen exploits this bad? Really? I witnessed at least two economy- and game-breaking exploits during my active play time, and Turbine handled them way worse, like allowing them to go on for ages and not punishing the exploiters beyond 3-day bans. This was fixed within days of discovery, there was active, transparent communication from the dev team, and the effect on the economy has already been minimized. They've shown that they're not afraid to perma-ban exploiters and punish people who spread exploit info, and even gave out free stuff. If Turbine handled DDO crises in such a manner, I would've still been playing actively. In DDO, on the other hand, during the challenges exploit, inflation effect lasted for months, and I bet there's still people with banks full of ill-gotten epic gear from another.


I am happy with how the issue was handled. There was frequent and relevant communication by the devs.
Amen. As a note, the reason NWO is quickly gaining likes in FB and the like is because they actually use these resources actively, especially during crisis management.


It's not just stamina that's there. I went in with cheat engine after reading about it. There is a bunch of stuff client side. Stamina is just the only one someone has made a third party program to exploit so far.
*shrug* I'm not sure why it's so popular to blame the devs for exploiters. It's the latter who are cheating, so if you see it, it should be witness->report->cheater permabanned, rinse and repeat. If you're seeing bugs/exploits and use them for gain or even "teh lulz", you don't deserve to be a part of the community. Would you do the same in DDO? I know that good guilds in both games actively disapprove of such behavior.


I stumbled across the source code for one such program this morning... Now I have looked hard for DDO tools ( like a DAT defragmenter that works. Yes DAT files are fragmented, despite everything they say ) and there's almost zilch, nada, nothing to be found.
DDO is older, likely with fewer people, and even less exploitable for cash. Also, DDO doesn't have that many PvPers, so motivation for cheating is also lower.

Charononus
05-23-2013, 07:07 AM
*shrug* I'm not sure why it's so popular to blame the devs for exploiters. It's the latter who are cheating, so if you see it, it should be witness->report->cheater permabanned, rinse and repeat. If you're seeing bugs/exploits and use them for gain or even "teh lulz", you don't deserve to be a part of the community. Would you do the same in DDO? I know that good guilds in both games actively disapprove of such behavior.


Because storing variables client side is a very rookie move. If it was ten years or so ago and this was one of the first mmo's made it would be excusable, however enough mmo's have been made that dev's should know that exploiters are everywhere and you need to store things server side or you will have rampant cheating.

Ausdoerrt
05-23-2013, 07:35 AM
Because storing variables client side is a very rookie move. If it was ten years or so ago and this was one of the first mmo's made it would be excusable, however enough mmo's have been made that dev's should know that exploiters are everywhere and you need to store things server side or you will have rampant cheating.
I don't disagree with you on that, all I'm saying is, the proper course of action would be to contact support/bug report such information and report anyone you know who uses these exploits, rather than take them out for a spin and then brag about it/encourage further cheating on a different forum.

If anything, this'll probably just affect PvP so I don't really care about it. Also, if the punishment is strict enough, most people will think twice before cheating. But you know, just saying this as a matter of principle.

Chai
05-23-2013, 02:55 PM
Let's see, has DDO never seen exploits this bad? Really? I witnessed at least two economy- and game-breaking exploits during my active play time, and Turbine handled them way worse, like allowing them to go on for ages and not punishing the exploiters beyond 3-day bans. This was fixed within days of discovery, there was active, transparent communication from the dev team, and the effect on the economy has already been minimized. They've shown that they're not afraid to perma-ban exploiters and punish people who spread exploit info, and even gave out free stuff. If Turbine handled DDO crises in such a manner, I would've still been playing actively. In DDO, on the other hand, during the challenges exploit, inflation effect lasted for months, and I bet there's still people with banks full of ill-gotten epic gear from another.

They rolled the game back 7 hours for an exploit that was happening for 3 weeks or more. Then they only banned mains. Most of the zen are either on alts or in STO or another one of their games overloading their markets. Anyone want to buy a cat. :p



*shrug* I'm not sure why it's so popular to blame the devs for exploiters. It's the latter who are cheating, so if you see it, it should be witness->report->cheater permabanned, rinse and repeat. If you're seeing bugs/exploits and use them for gain or even "teh lulz", you don't deserve to be a part of the community. Would you do the same in DDO? I know that good guilds in both games actively disapprove of such behavior.

Many people reported the exploit 2-3 weeks before someone took major advantage of it in their AH browser. Alot of the people who reported it as a bug were also banned. So the very people who helped by putting in a ticket, after paying for founders packs and the like, were also disciplined. Sounds like an automated system at work here. Now, where have we seen such before. Oh wait....

They also use completely automated systems for chat banning if people get reported for spam. This means if someone ticks me off, I send a message to my guild to report all (insert name here) chat in general channel as spam, and they can no longer talk in chat, guild, whisper, zone, etc...for 24 hours.


DDO is older, likely with fewer people, and even less exploitable for cash. Also, DDO doesn't have that many PvPers, so motivation for cheating is also lower.

Yes, older, meaning most people already have what they want.

Charononus
05-23-2013, 03:08 PM
I don't disagree with you on that, all I'm saying is, the proper course of action would be to contact support/bug report such information and report anyone you know who uses these exploits
I think part of the problem is that PWE is not stopping the exploits, which were reported back in closed beta. I know I kept silent but at this point I actually mailed ten ton hammer and massively about the exploits and how to do them in hopes that more people knowing will actually get things fixed.


, rather than take them out for a spin and then brag about it/encourage further cheating on a different forum.
Performing the exploit is wrong but sometimes it feels you have to pass the info around to get things done


If anything, this'll probably just affect PvP so I don't really care about it. Also, if the punishment is strict enough, most people will think twice before cheating. But you know, just saying this as a matter of principle.
Actually imo even if they permabanned it wouldn't have much effect on a f2p game as you just cheat on a f2p account and if it gets banned, even without leveling exploits you can cap in a couple days. And actually it isn't just PVP some builds can use this for god mode one shots.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-23-2013, 04:59 PM
So much misinformation in the last few pages.

First of all, the exploits that were fixed were not known in closed beta, and were only used by a significant measure on the 19th. They only became an issue to the economy on the 19th, and the exploits are defeated and all guilty found and banned, including mule accounts. The few that utilized the exploit before the 19th are being tracked down and banned. Most are already found and banned. Cryptic is following the AD and are really good at telling bad money from good.

Furthermore, Cryptic is aggressively handling several other exploits, one by one. This is why the game is still in beta. There is much more to be done before you'll see the beta tag removed

Chai I dont know where you come up with this stuff.

There's not a post you made in this thread that accurately defines the reality, which is currently well in hand. And to re-enforce previous threads, the game IS in an open beta phase.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-23-2013, 05:36 PM
Here's today's update - its a big one by Andy Valasquez - which covers many of the items mentioned in this thread, and a bunch more:

http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=896631

The line affirming what I've been saying throughout the thread:

"Speaking of testing, as we progress through OBT and near the official live launch, we'll be standing up a Public Test Shard or PTS. "

chance2000
05-23-2013, 06:09 PM
This is from one of the top guys at Neverwinter Online.
Andy Velasquez, Neverwinter Lead Producer
http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=896631
You will notice in this statement that it is said it is still in open beta.
Some of the things that they have addressed so far.
Was beat to it/

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-23-2013, 06:21 PM
This is from one of the top guys at Neverwinter Online.
Andy Velasquez, Neverwinter Lead Producer
http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=896631
You will notice in this statement that it is said it is still in open beta.
Some of the things that they have addressed so far.

Haha sorry for the ninja ;)

Ausdoerrt
05-24-2013, 02:43 AM
Many people reported the exploit 2-3 weeks before someone took major advantage of it in their AH browser.
Most people CLAIM to have reported the exploit. There's a subtle but significant difference here.

Now here's a hard fact for you: there was a clipping bug in one of the epic dungeons used for exploiting, which surfaced on the forum 1-2 days ago. It was fixed in the latest patch.


So much misinformation in the last few pages.

Chai I dont know where you come up with this stuff.
Well, IIRC (haven't been on DDO so much lately), Chai is widely known here for trusting rumor/speculation more than facts. Though to be fair, some of the recent rumors are getting more difficult to distinguish.


Performing the exploit is wrong but sometimes it feels you have to pass the info around to get things done
That's a really weak justification. As an analogy, would you steal from a store just to show their security isn't up to snuff?

There's a good reason why devs/mods exert strict control over the spread of exploit info. It's not because they're evil, it's because it does more harm than good. And from what I've seen, they actually pay attention to posts on the forums, PMs and bug reports, so if you really wanted to get "something done", there are ways to do so properly without hurting the community in the process.


P.S. The Zen to AD exchange yesterday was already close to what it was prior to the exploit, will probably normalize in a week or two. There are no cats on sale anywhere. AH opened and nothing disastrous happened beyond some dumping due to people farming for a few days without means to sell, wit prices mostly back to normal-ish after a few hours. I think Cryptic's done their job well.

Chai
05-24-2013, 07:36 AM
Most people CLAIM to have reported the exploit. There's a subtle but significant difference here.

Nope. It was reported 2-3 weeks ago,. by myself and a few others in my guild. We got responses on it, and they knew about it.


Now here's a hard fact for you: there was a clipping bug in one of the epic dungeons used for exploiting, which surfaced on the forum 1-2 days ago. It was fixed in the latest patch.

Which was also known about for a longer period of time. The forums are not where bugs are reported or the first time. They are where people complain about them not being fixed after weeks in the wild.



Well, IIRC (haven't been on DDO so much lately), Chai is widely known here for trusting rumor/speculation more than facts. Though to be fair, some of the recent rumors are getting more difficult to distinguish.

Wrong. Much of what Ive been saying for the past 6 months is happening. So much for trusting rumors.


That's a really weak justification. As an analogy, would you steal from a store just to show their security isn't up to snuff?


There's a good reason why devs/mods exert strict control over the spread of exploit info. It's not because they're evil, it's because it does more harm than good. And from what I've seen, they actually pay attention to posts on the forums, PMs and bug reports, so if you really wanted to get "something done", there are ways to do so properly without hurting the community in the process.

And yet just above youre acting like when we hear about it on the forums its the first time the company heard about it too.


P.S. The Zen to AD exchange yesterday was already close to what it was prior to the exploit, will probably normalize in a week or two. There are no cats on sale anywhere. AH opened and nothing disastrous happened beyond some dumping due to people farming for a few days without means to sell, wit prices mostly back to normal-ish after a few hours. I think Cryptic's done their job well.

This is also incorrect. The exchange rate is up past 45 and is nearing 50. Before the exploit it hovered near 35. Rumors versus facts? Mirror.

Chai
05-24-2013, 07:44 AM
So much misinformation in the last few pages.

First of all, the exploits that were fixed were not known in closed beta, and were only used by a significant measure on the 19th. They only became an issue to the economy on the 19th, and the exploits are defeated and all guilty found and banned, including mule accounts. The few that utilized the exploit before the 19th are being tracked down and banned. Most are already found and banned. Cryptic is following the AD and are really good at telling bad money from good.

Furthermore, Cryptic is aggressively handling several other exploits, one by one. This is why the game is still in beta. There is much more to be done before you'll see the beta tag removed

Chai I dont know where you come up with this stuff.

There's not a post you made in this thread that accurately defines the reality, which is currently well in hand. And to re-enforce previous threads, the game IS in an open beta phase.

Myself and other guild members reported that exploit in closed beta and received responses on it, that it was already known.

Doesn't look like beta to me. Of course youll just dismiss this, as it doesn't support your claim.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2s6a615.png

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
05-24-2013, 08:34 AM
... Much of what Ive been saying for the past 6 months is happening.

Myself and other guild members reported that exploit in closed beta and received responses on it, that it was already known.

Doesn't look like beta to me. Of course youll just dismiss this, as it doesn't support your claim.





And I already told you that the L is a display bug, per Sominator, go ask him yourself.

Now as for the rest of your claims in this thread, and your 6 months of hypothesis, let's see who should we believe, the very active lead producer of the project (Andy Velasquez) or Chai?

Let me get back to you on that one.

Chai
05-24-2013, 08:47 AM
And I already told you that the L is a display bug, per Sominator, go ask him yourself.

A display bug? You realize they could change this back if they wanted to at a moments notice right?

And I already explained to you how they announced the game was live, then redacted that when the exploits they knew about for 2+ weeks got so huge that they had no other choice but to answer for it.

That dude will say what hes paid to say.


Now as for the rest of your claims in this thread, and your 6 months of hypothesis, let's see who should we believe, the very active lead producer of the project (Andy Velasquez) or Chai?

Let me get back to you on that one.

Please dont. People who will defend at all costs, regardless of how bad it gets, are not being realistic. I think the game has potential, but there are far too many exploits, and features that do not enforce good community etiquette that need to be changed before they will have a game that has a decent amount of replay value.

Ausdoerrt
05-24-2013, 11:49 AM
This is also incorrect. The exchange rate is up past 45 and is nearing 50. Before the exploit it hovered near 35. Rumors versus facts? Mirror.
Ahahaha. This here just shows how much we can trust your claims. Exchange last night was at 380-390 and falling, which isn't even close to your numbers. So yeah, allow me to trust my eyes and the more reputable sources like dev communication :)

EDIT: Correction, it's at 360 now.


A display bug? You realize they could change this back if they wanted to at a moments notice right?

And I already explained to you how they announced the game was live, then redacted that when the exploits they knew about for 2+ weeks got so huge that they had no other choice but to answer for it.
They never announced it was live. They've stated it was OBT from the start in all communications - I still have that e-mail for the Alpha team in late April saying "This is your last chance to participate in Neverwinter Alpha testing before we go into Open Beta", for example.

If that's not enough here's some logic - the Founders' Program. They've announced that it's ending soon, and also that the game will be out of Beta soon. You're a Founder if you're there from the start - from Beta. Makes sense to me.

Moreover, RaiderZ, another PWE game, handled OBT EXACTLY the same way. Cept people weren't complaining about it.

Finally, if they really were in the middle of a huge sh*tstorm and lying through their teeth - they would try to have as little, not as much communication with the player base as possible. If you understand how PR works, you'll agree. Or you could look to Turbine for examples.

That's if all this is not bloody obvious - what released MMOs have scheduled DAILY downtimes and patches, or placeholder icons for items? But of course we can trust tinfoil hat theories and rumors over what makes logical sense, cause it supports what you're trying to say.


Please dont. People who will defend at all costs, regardless of how bad it gets, are not being realistic.
Neither are people who whine/flame at all costs, even beyond logic. Making this argument pointless. I just wish such people would stop spreading misinformation just out of spite.

Charononus
05-24-2013, 12:00 PM
That's a really weak justification. As an analogy, would you steal from a store just to show their security isn't up to snuff?



Actually it's a long running debate.

Some hackers when they find a bug in software security notify the company but when the company doesn't fix the bug for an extended period of time, release the information to news outlets to put pressure on the company to fix the problems it has.

It's an ethical debate, some call it grey hat, I still see it as a white hat. I think in someways you could tie it to the dnd alignment system. Not making it public and continuing to wait would probably be lawful good, releasing the info after the company has done nothing for an extended time is probably chaotic good.

Ausdoerrt
05-24-2013, 12:53 PM
Actually it's a long running debate.

Some hackers when they find a bug in software security notify the company but when the company doesn't fix the bug for an extended period of time, release the information to news outlets to put pressure on the company to fix the problems it has.

It's an ethical debate, some call it grey hat, I still see it as a white hat. I think in someways you could tie it to the dnd alignment system. Not making it public and continuing to wait would probably be lawful good, releasing the info after the company has done nothing for an extended time is probably chaotic good.

You can debate vertical alignment, but horizontal alignment is clearly chaotic, which I don't like. Unfortunately, cheating in online games isn't punishable in quite the same ways as hacking.

Charononus
05-24-2013, 01:40 PM
You can debate vertical alignment, but horizontal alignment is clearly chaotic, which I don't like. Unfortunately, cheating in online games isn't punishable in quite the same ways as hacking.

See for me I don't like lawful types, because outside of certain laws (murder is bad) most laws are written by those in power, to create more power for themselves.

Chai
05-24-2013, 04:21 PM
Ahahaha. This here just shows how much we can trust your claims. Exchange last night was at 380-390 and falling, which isn't even close to your numbers. So yeah, allow me to trust my eyes and the more reputable sources like dev communication :)

EDIT: Correction, it's at 360 now.

Way to quote the lowest. There were two orders for that amount. Most are still in the 400+ range.


They never announced it was live. They've stated it was OBT from the start in all communications - I still have that e-mail for the Alpha team in late April saying "This is your last chance to participate in Neverwinter Alpha testing before we go into Open Beta", for example.

Wrong - they sure did announce it, and redacted that anouncement when they had to patch the shinola out of all the exploits and bugs the community was no longer allowing them to ignore.


If that's not enough here's some logic - the Founders' Program. They've announced that it's ending soon, and also that the game will be out of Beta soon. You're a Founder if you're there from the start - from Beta. Makes sense to me.

Youre a founder if you PAY THEM to gain the founder tag by buying the founder pack. It has absolutely nothing to do with some arbitrary date where they change the beta tag to live tag.

And the "founder program" has been "ending soon" for 6 weeks now. I have a feeling that Soon™ in DDO and Soon™ in NW are very similar in definition. :p


Finally, if they really were in the middle of a huge sh*tstorm and lying through their teeth - they would try to have as little, not as much communication with the player base as possible. If you understand how PR works, you'll agree. Or you could look to Turbine for examples.

I agree, I like the fact that they tell us what the exploit it and tell us what the consequences are for those who did it. It shuts up the "if they dont define it as an exploit its perfectly legit" crowd real quick.


That's if all this is not bloody obvious - what released MMOs have scheduled DAILY downtimes and patches, or placeholder icons for items? But of course we can trust tinfoil hat theories and rumors over what makes logical sense, cause it supports what you're trying to say.

Its not a tinfoil hat theory simply because you disagree with it.


Neither are people who whine/flame at all costs, even beyond logic. Making this argument pointless. I just wish such people would stop spreading misinformation just out of spite.

Ive posted both positive and negative on NW as I do on these boards as well. People arent spreading misinformation out of spite. Its not hard to understand that someone can like a game and still post about negative things in order to provide feedback about how the game could be better. What needs to be understood here is the error being made is calling the game beta AND taking money at the same time. Once players pay for things, they have all the clout they need to provide any desired feedback. When the white knights tell PAYING CUSTOMERS to stop complaining, hilarity ensues.

chance2000
06-07-2013, 06:15 AM
We are pleased to announce that Neverwinter, the most anticipated action MMORPG of 2013, will be transitioning out of Open Beta on June 20th!

There ya go.

Charononus
06-07-2013, 07:45 AM
We are pleased to announce that Neverwinter, the most anticipated action MMORPG of 2013, will be transitioning out of Open Beta on June 20th!

There ya go.

Charged money in cash shop = Beta was a smoke and mirrors term. Do not look at the man behind the curtain.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
06-08-2013, 06:56 AM
Haha, I think this one is pretty wrapped up now. Much to do about nothing. Some did disagree about the cash store being open, in an open beta. I wasn't much a fan of it either, but I understood why. Imagine, the gall of wanting to be paid for a day's work! It went fine. People didn't have to pay a dime. Many did and were quite happy. Some did and were sad. Either way, it was purely optional.

There was no conspiracy, the game will be ready to launch on the 20th. The game is now listed as [O] just for you Chai, and a few others ;)

ITYS :)~~~