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View Full Version : The Official Barbarian Enhancements Discussion Thread!



SqueakofDoom
04-29-2013, 06:32 PM
Barbarian Enhancements are available on Lamannia this weekend.

Please share your thoughts on the Barbarian Enhancement Trees!

Daemoneyes
04-30-2013, 06:08 PM
First off:
if you would really care about feedback you wouldnt release such a broken Forum.
I had to login 3 effin times just to post here.


Occult Slayer
autogrants(on the bottom horizontal)
Weapon Bond
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 1
Cooldown: 2 minutes
You build a psychic bond with your mainhandweapon.
You strengthen your Weapon Bond by damagingenemies withattacks, up toonce
each second. Your Weapon Bond is brokenwhen you change yourmainhand weaponor die.

Activate: You reduce your bond strengthby 1 togain a +5 Insight bonusto Attack for seconds.
+ attack on a barb? that clicky is almost the worst i have seen

Spell Resistance(1/1)
Requires: Weapon Bond(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 2
Requires: Barbarian Level 3
Requires: 5 Points Spent In Tree
You gain+3 Spell Resistance & improve yourbarbarian damagereduction by +1.
(This stacks with most spell resistanceexcept for Drow spell resistance.)
(author's note: They *really* don't like drow barbarians eh?:P:P)
Make it stack with Drow


Elemental Defense(1/1)
Requires: Spell Resistance(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 2
Requires: Barbarian Level 6
Requires: 10 Points Spent In Tree
When enemy spells deal elemental damage to you,there's a 10% chance you'll gain 25
temporary hitpoints for30 seconds.
This cantrigger up to once every 40 seconds.

(ElementalDamage includes Acid, Cold, Eletric,Fire, Sonic.)
down to 20sec CD


Blank Thoughts(1/)
Requires: Elemental Defense(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 2
Requires: Barbarian Level 12
Requires: 20 Points Spent In Tree
You gain the Slippery Mind feat & improve your barbarian damage reduction by+1. (When you
fail a saving throw vs.enchantments.you roll a second time.)


Force Ward(1/1)
Requires: Blank Thoughts(Rank 1)
Requires: Barbarian Level 18
Requires: 30 Points Spent In Tree
You gain immunity to magic missiles &+5% Competence bonus ot entirely avoidincoming
Force damage.


Mind Over Magic(1/1)
Requires: Force Ward(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 2
Requires: Barbarian Level 20
Requires: 40 Points Spent In Tree
When youtake spell damage, you gain +1saving throw vs.magic for 12 seconds. This can
stack upto 4 times & fades 1 stack at a time.
Weak, especially on a barb where the saves suck anyway

VerticalEnhancements in the Occult Slayer tree:
Extend Rage(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 1
Your barbarian rage lasts 25% longer.
Your barbarian rage lasts 50% longer.
Your barbarian rage lasts 75% longer.

Ear Smash(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 1
Action Point Cost: 2
Cooldown12 seconds
Melee Attack: Deals +0.5[W] damage. Damagedenemies can't cast spells for 2 seconds.
Melee Attack: Deals +1[W] damage. Damaged enemies can't castspellsfor4 seconds.
Melee Attack: Deals +1.5[W] damage. Damagedenemies can't cast spells for 6 seconds.
hope this works on Rednamed or else its useless

ParryingBond(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 1
While Weapon Bond 10+:
+2 Competence bonus to AC
+4 Competence bonus to AC
+6 Competence bonus to AC

Uncanny Dodger(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 1
You gain+1% Dodge
You gain+2% Dodge
You gain+3% Dodge

Awareness(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 1
+1 Listen
+1 Search
+1 Spot
+2 Listen
+2 Search
+2 Spot
+1 Reflex Saving Throw
+3 Listen
+3 Search
+3 Spot


Willpower Rage(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 2
You gain+1 to Will saving throws whileraged.

Knockout(1/3)
Requires: Ear Smash(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 2
Ear Smash puts enemies to sleep for 6seconds. On Vorpal, enemies are stunned instead.

GuardingBond(1/3)
RequiresParrying Bond(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 2
You gain+4 PRR at Weapon Bond 30+

Lessons ofTravel(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 2
Action Point Cost: 2
+2 Energy resistance against Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, & Sonic damage

Antimagic Boost(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 2
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Action Boost: +1 ActionBoost bonus to saving throws vs.magic
clicky for +1 is meh, make it at least +2 on first tier

Bond ofRetribution(1/1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 3
Action Point Cost: 2
While atWeapon Bond 120+ & below 50%health, you gain +1 crit damage multiplier on attack
rolls of19-20.
x% health stuff is useless

Lessons ofNature(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 3
Action Point Cost: 2
You gain+1 to save vs.both disease & poison.
increase +x or make it at least give immunity, without buff nobody will take it.

Arcane Encumbrance(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 3
When enemies damage youwith spells, there's a 10% chance they'll be knockeddown.
(Does not affect bosses.)

Kinetic Bond(1/3)
Requires: Lessons of Travel(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 3
At weapon bond strength45+, you deal1d20 extra force damage with yourattacks. This
damage cantrigger up to once every 3seconds.

Con(1/1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 3
Action Point Cost: 2
+1 CON


VisciousStrike(1/3)
Requires: Arcane Encumbrance(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 4
Requires: 20 Points Spent In Tree
Action Point Cost: 2
Cooldown: 12 seconds
Melee Attack: Deals +1[W] damage & inflictsFeedback on enemy for 6seconds.
Feedback: When I cast aspell I take 10d10 Force damage.

Con(1/1)
Req: Level1
Req: Barb Level 4
Requires: 20 Points Spent In Tree
AP Cost:2
+1 Con

Bond of Destruction(1/1)
Requires: Bond of Retribution(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 5
Requires: 40 Points Spent In Tree
AP Cost:2
While atWeapon Bond 180+, your Bond ofRetribution doesn't have a health requirement.

VampiricBond(1/3)
Requires: Lessons of Nature(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 5
Requires: 40 Points Spent In Tree
At Weapon Bond 150+, your weapon provides you 20 temporary hitpoints when you damagean
enemy.
This cantrigger at most once every 12 seconds.

AdamantineBond
Requires: Kinetic Bond(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 5
Requires: 40 Points Spent In Tree
Action Point Cost: 3
At Weapon Bond 120+, your bonded weaponbecomesAdamantine, bypassing the Damage Reduction
of certainenemies.

Byeshk Bond
Requires: Kinetic Bond(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 5
Requires: 40 Points Spent In Tree
Action Point Cost: 3
At Weapon Bond 120+, your bonded weaponbecomesByeshk, bypassing the DamageReduction of
certain enemies.

Cold Iron Bond
Requires: Kinetic Bond(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 5
Requires: 40 Points Spent In Tree
Action Point Cost: 3
At Weapon Bond 120+, your bonded weaponbecomesCold Iron, bypassing the Damage Reduction
of certainenemies.

Silver Bond
Requires: Kinetic Bond(Rank 1)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 5
Requires: 40 Points Spent In Tree
Action Point Cost: 3
At Weapon Bond 120+, your bonded weaponbecomesSilver, bypassing the DamageReduction of
certain enemies.

Not sure anybody will bother with those DR breaking stuff,
most of us use eAga (or eElementalGreataxe) so why waste AP?
Especially with those high AP prices and the Bond requirement.
Really dont see any use in them

Toughness(1/3)
Requires: Level 1
Requires: Barbarian Level 5
Requires: 40 Points Spent In Tree
+10 HP


This tree is missing a t4 & t5 attack

Silverleafeon
04-30-2013, 08:16 PM
Its the bottom of the 9th, one out (alpha) and chicken little is two runs ahead.
There is a wizard on first base, and a sorcerer on second base.
The Devs are the home team, and time out has been called.

Will the Devs pull it off, or will they lose the game to chicken little?



Speaking as someone who has played every class and race the old fashion way,
I am distressed and upset at the current events playing out in this enhancement alpha.


You, the Devs, are about to implement a nerf to every class in the game except two.
That is a pretty strong charge, let's talk it over.


Archmage wizards probably need some more flexablity.
Other than that, the arcane powerhouses (Sorcerer and Wizard) almost always come out on top.

The enhancements for the melee is coming along, until one considers that melees exist in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis
with other classes. When those classes suffer, the melee classes suffer.

Most melees have gotten to the point of realizing that sorcerers and wizards often don't care.
That is why we melees carry haste clickies, haste potions, and melee aclarity items.
That is why we melees carry permanent blur items.
We can get along if we have to without them.

But we melees have another Symbiosis, a strong greater one that is much more important.
If this group is weak, we melee are also weak.
It is the group of classes that can cast mass curative spells.

This group includes Bards, Druids, Clerics, and Favored Souls.
The games fate and destiny are interwoven with their destiny.

These four classes have some else in common.
All four of them currently only have tier two prestige classes.
Since three tier should exists, one can obviously concluded that each of these classes
should be increased in enhancement power by 50% during this enhancement update.

Bards also suffer as already needing upgrades in many forms.
They sit at the bottom of all the classes, needing much love.
I will not list in detail what should be changed as you the Devs already have my very
details notes on the subject documented for later access.

While some will say, the spellsinger looks kinda nice, I say you have a long way to go.
The bard needs a lot of work, you know what it is, do it.


Fifty percent is a lot of power addition.
Fear is the original sin.
Be bold, be creative, show us how smart you can be.

~Som
05-02-2013, 08:59 AM
Daemoneyes, are those enhancements copied from ddowiki or from seeing them on current Lammania? And if not, can someone post 1-3 barb trees from Lammania?

Daemoneyes
05-02-2013, 11:47 AM
Daemoneyes, are those enhancements copied from ddowiki or from seeing them on current Lammania? And if not, can someone post 1-3 barb trees from Lammania?

From the other thread you posted, dont have access to lam anymore so i had to go with that.
That brings me back to what i always said and will keep saying, the devs should post updated info all the time here.
I honestly dont see why they are not able to provide at least that much info, in every other game this was never an issue.

btw i dont think even reducing the ap cost to 1 would make a difference for the things i critic-ed.
Especially the dr break stuff, when the top 3 weapons all break dr who care about wasting a ton of AP in a tree that has nothing worthy in t4&t5?

btolson
05-21-2013, 03:14 PM
Now that I can finally log in and post again, I'll offer some thoughts I jotted down a couple weeks ago.


General

Extend Rage/Extra Rage/Barbarian Power Attack: Splitting these across 3 different trees is really punishing for multiclass builds, as you must either forgo any enhancements from your multiclass(es) or at least 1 of these 3 core enhancements. These really need to be more widely available, through either:
1) a General Tree
2) duplicating these enhancements in multiple PrE trees, just as Efficient Metamagic: Maximize is available in both wizard trees

Rolling Improved Barbarian Damage Reduction into Occult Slayer's Core Abilities is also quite restrictive.

None of the Barb Capstones are at all appealing. Very long cooldowns are not capstone-worthy. I would much rather have the current capstone that is on live than any of these.

Stat abilities: these should be Multi-Choice Selectors that allow Strength/Constitution. Occult Slayer might allow Str/Con/Wis.


Frenzied Berserker

Angry Arms and Mad Munitions are not worth more than 1 point investment to qualify for Focus Wide. These need to scale more per point, or else introduce an X% chance to proc a unique bane damage effect on hit/crit.

Lash Out/Sundering Spin/Tantrum: the feat reqs on these make them really hard for a barb to pick up (especially Tantrum), which diminishes the appeal of this tree's tier 5. Sundering Spin is especially not worth taking, even if the feat requirement were dropped.

Frenzy/Death Frenzy: Please consider increasing the duration of these to 2+ minutes. They have always been very tedious to manage. This duration increase can potentially come in the form a separate enhancement somewhere in the tree, and may have multiple ranks.


Occult Slayer

Kinetic Bond: remove the hits per second throttle to make this worthwhile. Bonus damage that can't be applied to cleaves or multiplied by crits is not appealing. It also makes no sense for this to have a chain dependency on Lessons of Travel.

The Weapon Bond mechanic is too cumbersome. Gaining at most 1 bond per second, when the upper tier abilities require 150-180 weapon bond to even function at all, is extremely hard to play around as weapon swapping is a big part of effectively playing a melee. This PrE desperately needs high-level bonuses that (at least partially) function even at weapon bond 0, or a way to escalate weapon bond much faster (possibly on a cooldown).

Vampiric Bond: highly marginalized by 1) its per second throttle and 2) its inability to scale with healing amp

Bond of Retribution: this is useless on its own. Serves only as a pre-req for Bond of Destruction. Suggest just getting rid of this enhancement and letting Bond of Destruction stand on its own.

Elemental Defense: Weak to begin with, and rendered useless by a per-second-throttle.


Ravager

Pain Touch: Remove the per-second-throttle from this, but don't let it automatically apply to glancing blows so that it will still be considerably weaker than Frenzy. Currently it is just too weak.

wooddog
06-24-2013, 08:13 PM
Will Barbs be losing a 1 to the critical multiplier?

In the current system Frenzied Berserker get a +1 critical multiplier from Frenzied Berserker II, Frenzied Berserker III and Death Frenzy. Giving a total of +3 to the critical multiplier.

In the new system all I see is +1 for death frenzy and +1 for Focused Wrath.

Ironclans_evil_twin
06-25-2013, 11:46 PM
Will Barbs be losing a 1 to the critical multiplier?

In the current system Frenzied Berserker get a +1 critical multiplier from Frenzied Berserker II, Frenzied Berserker III and Death Frenzy. Giving a total of +3 to the critical multiplier.

In the new system all I see is +1 for death frenzy and +1 for Focused Wrath.

Looks that way to me, almost every class/build is nerfed in this enhancement pass, even sword and board defenders are being nerfed (they lose the PRR granted from just wearing a shield, goes away now (I say now because this change made it to live already) and they can't be in stance with a THF weapon, so their "DPS mode" just got a lot worse. Bards, Pali's, Clerics and Barbs for some reason are getting bent over a little worse than any other classes, considering they are not especially popular to begin with it does seem puzzling... And frankly I think it's poor design work or simply lazy design work by the Dev's.

I went to work on a Barb build last week, I was remembering the +3 crits and thinking I need a mindless low clickie, melee build to just play and not worry about other players health bars (I play a lot of healing capable toons all of which tend to main heal or supplemental heal, two FvS's, a Cleric, a Pali, Druid and a Bard, all of which will watch the rest of the parties red bars while trying to be decent spell or melee DPS or CC/DC casters. I like to multitask and it ups the challenge of DDO which I like, but it's also nice to just zone out and wallop stuff for big numbers some times, thus the motivation to brew up another Alt struck me.

Long story longer I double checked the Alpha and hated what I saw in the Barb trees... -2 less criticals from old Frenzied is not fun. Remember "focused wrath" is a 19-20 effect, and it thus not actually a substitute for the lost crits in the live version.

Kensei while not buffed per se is by far the better choice for Melee DPS if these enhancements aren't improved. +1 crit range, +3 to damage (equivelent of 6 STR from rage) always on; and all those feats to play with just put it into no contest land... the fact that a Monk splash + Kensai focus = centered weapon means Earth stance with Khopeshes... an additional +1 to crits... and no raging or rage self healing drawbacks.

Basically from my perspective Barb is already an unattractive class that is hard to make self sufficient (which is 100% required in todays BYOH pug scene) and not very self sufficient even when you manage it. It is feat strapped, and can not take some of the best splashes (no 2 Monk)... After the pass it's rather massive "big numbers" advantage is actually lower then a well splashed Fighter will be... the fighter will have eleventy hundred more feats, a monk multiclass gives evasion, centered with any weapon you care for:

Centered Deathnips in Earth stance = X5 crits on a 16-20 range... and that's ignoring ED stuff and overwhelming 19-20 stuff.

So... The question is, if I can see this after spending a few hours mulling over my "mindless melee" options, how it is possible that Turbine doesn't see it?

I don't think I'm being alarmist or exaggerating when I say that Barb's after the pass look like pure flavor builds... and we all know how well flavor builds are recieved in DDO's caustic and often elitist player community.

FlaviusMaximus
06-29-2013, 10:27 PM
Centered Deathnips in Earth stance = X5 crits on a 16-20 range... and that's ignoring ED stuff and overwhelming 19-20 stuff.

I don't think I'm being alarmist or exaggerating when I say that Barb's after the pass look like pure flavor builds... and we all know how well flavor builds are recieved in DDO's caustic and often elitist player community.

Earth stance adds +1 crit multiplier on 19 and 20 only (which is still great).

I agree that barbarians need help. One thing that could help make them attractive is to allow abilities like Primal Scream to count as rage for all intents and purposes when it comes to barbarian abilities. For example, if a ravager barb wants to go out and cocoon heal himself and pack some heal scrolls, he could get the expanded crit range while Skaldic Rage or Primal Scream are in effect instead of going into a barbarian rage and losing those options. It would be great if things like +1 str or con while raging went into effect when other forms of rage were activated as well.

Something like that would certainly make me consider taking my barb back into the world.

Teh_Troll
06-30-2013, 09:33 AM
Damn, I think we all know why Shade went to Neverwinter! :)

Barbs don't need a nerf, any nerf.

maddmatt70
07-01-2013, 09:25 PM
Looks that way to me, almost every class/build is nerfed in this enhancement pass, even sword and board defenders are being nerfed (they lose the PRR granted from just wearing a shield, goes away now (I say now because this change made it to live already) and they can't be in stance with a THF weapon, so their "DPS mode" just got a lot worse. Bards, Pali's, Clerics and Barbs for some reason are getting bent over a little worse than any other classes, considering they are not especially popular to begin with it does seem puzzling... And frankly I think it's poor design work or simply lazy design work by the Dev's.

I went to work on a Barb build last week, I was remembering the +3 crits and thinking I need a mindless low clickie, melee build to just play and not worry about other players health bars (I play a lot of healing capable toons all of which tend to main heal or supplemental heal, two FvS's, a Cleric, a Pali, Druid and a Bard, all of which will watch the rest of the parties red bars while trying to be decent spell or melee DPS or CC/DC casters. I like to multitask and it ups the challenge of DDO which I like, but it's also nice to just zone out and wallop stuff for big numbers some times, thus the motivation to brew up another Alt struck me.

Long story longer I double checked the Alpha and hated what I saw in the Barb trees... -2 less criticals from old Frenzied is not fun. Remember "focused wrath" is a 19-20 effect, and it thus not actually a substitute for the lost crits in the live version.

Kensei while not buffed per se is by far the better choice for Melee DPS if these enhancements aren't improved. +1 crit range, +3 to damage (equivelent of 6 STR from rage) always on; and all those feats to play with just put it into no contest land... the fact that a Monk splash + Kensai focus = centered weapon means Earth stance with Khopeshes... an additional +1 to crits... and no raging or rage self healing drawbacks.

Basically from my perspective Barb is already an unattractive class that is hard to make self sufficient (which is 100% required in todays BYOH pug scene) and not very self sufficient even when you manage it. It is feat strapped, and can not take some of the best splashes (no 2 Monk)... After the pass it's rather massive "big numbers" advantage is actually lower then a well splashed Fighter will be... the fighter will have eleventy hundred more feats, a monk multiclass gives evasion, centered with any weapon you care for:

Centered Deathnips in Earth stance = X5 crits on a 16-20 range... and that's ignoring ED stuff and overwhelming 19-20 stuff.

So... The question is, if I can see this after spending a few hours mulling over my "mindless melee" options, how it is possible that Turbine doesn't see it?

I don't think I'm being alarmist or exaggerating when I say that Barb's after the pass look like pure flavor builds... and we all know how well flavor builds are recieved in DDO's caustic and often elitist player community.

Barbs actually got quite a bit defensive buffs in the occult slayer enhancement. A barb now could splash 20 pts into occult slayer and get a decent defensive bump especially since a lot of the best defensive bumps are in the 1st and 2nd tier and thus cost less points and are easy to get. Actually a frenzy berserker with a decent amount of occult slayer is intriguing.

xMund
07-02-2013, 11:35 PM
Long story longer I double checked the Alpha and hated what I saw in the Barb trees... -2 less criticals from old Frenzied is not fun. Remember "focused wrath" is a 19-20 effect, and it thus not actually a substitute for the lost crits in the live version.


Every crit mod FB-enhancement on live now is 19-20. that means +3 crit mod on 19-20 gets traded for +1 mod and additional +1 on 19-20. For a lot of setups (e.g. ESOS users, falchion users etc.), that would be a net gain.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Frenzied_Berserker_enhancements

thegreatfox
07-03-2013, 01:09 PM
Every crit mod FB-enhancement on live now is 19-20. that means +3 crit mod on 19-20 gets traded for +1 mod and additional +1 on 19-20. For a lot of setups (e.g. ESOS users, falchion users etc.), that would be a net gain.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Frenzied_Berserker_enhancements

The +1 crit on death frenzy is not on a roll of 19-20, just while raging, for a +1 to crit on all rolls and an additional +2 on rolls of 19-20.

However, in the newest version of the enhancements they did add a second tier to focused wrath, which now gives +2 on rolls of 19-20, bringing frenzied berserker back to where it is currently on live.

That being said, there is still a lot about the tree I dislike, such as the capstone, the cracking attack, wade in, and all of the tier 5 abilities that require feats.

The capstone may well be the worst ability I have ever seen in the game, giving a maximum of 25 damage at the cost of 25 AC, 25 attack, and 25d20 untyped damage every 6 seconds, and the 100 hp to activate the ability. For these costs the damage should be outstanding, extreme, superb, outlandishly amazing, mind boggling and it's just not. 25 is a good amount of bonus damage, and the 25 AC is hardly an issue for barbs, and the 25 attack could be argued either way; that while it is extremely easy to hit things now, 25 would probably have SOME impact on your hitting, but the damage is the real kicker. 25d20 every 6 seconds, in addition to things like supreme cleave, frenzies, enemies beating on you that's just too much damage to be taking. I get a lot of aggro as a barb and take a lot of damage from stuff hitting me, and I also deal a good amount of damage to myself (spamming supreme cleaves, having frenzies active) but its worth it because I dish out a lot of damage. My heal amp is around 198% (that's 98% in addition to the 100% base), I have an EE ring of shadows, a radiance guard item to blind mobs with, and a pretty good PRR for a barb, and I do pretty well surviving most of the things the game can throw at me and my party other than the EE blue dragon in tor. But adding 25d20 damage on top of everything else is suicidal. Please change it

As for cracking attack, the impression I get from it is a version of sunder that deals +1.5 [W] damage, reduces their AC by 1 less than normal sunder, and has a better DC (10 + half barb level + strength mod) instead of (10+ strength mod). The 1 less AC hardly matters, and the extra damage is nice, as is the improved DC. It really isn't a bad attack, but its not all that much better than normal sunder either, which you get for free. And then the next enhancement up the line improves it to become a sort of improved sunder without the fortification reduction. 3 AP to reduce the enemies fort save by 3. Chances are someone is going to have improved sunder in your party, maybe the fighter, or another barb, or maybe you already have it. The fortification reduction is what makes improved sunder and without it this attack is nothing more than some extra damage with some mildly helpful effects that are probably already being taken care of by someone else. Also, it doesn't say that the fort save reduction stacks, improved sunders -3 to fort saves stacks 5 times. And then there is the final enhancement tied to this attack. Crazy attack activates when you score a critical hit with cracking attack and gives you up to +1[W] damage but causes you to lose 20 AC and 20 PRR. Alright, so AC is once again not a big deal since barb AC sucks anyway and in fact, it was kind of fun figuring out exactly how much negative AC I could get with the new enhancements (-60). But -20 PRR, that's not cool. PRR is one of the last defenses for a barb, we don't have AC, saves can be decent but still not great in most cases, DR is a joke, dodge chance is capped at 7% for medium armor, but we can still get some PRR to augment our less than spectacular defenses. With medium armor and a PRR +14 augment I hit 35 PRR, or about 19% less damage. Reducing it by 20 brings that down to about 9% damage reduction, so using that ability could cause you to take 10% more damage. For the +1[W] damage it gives you that seems hardly worth it to me.

Wade in is a good idea, something that makes you more powerful when you jump right into the middle of the fray to wreak havoc on any foe unlucky enough to be near you, but it gives you more attack instead of something like damage, or damage reduction, or PRR, or literally anything else that would make you either A) harder to kill or B) more deadly to enemies or C) both. As a barb there is nothing I like more than jumping right in the middle of everything and cleaving entire groups of mobs into submission. And if this ability could give something more useful than attack bonus it would be an enhancement I could really get behind.

Now, the tier 5 abilities that require feats. Like wade in, it's a cool idea, something to improve your supreme cleave so you become even more like a tornado of steely doom, but they all require a feat. One requires slicing blow, another improved sunder, and the third improved trip. As a barb you do not have many feats to play with, and some of these are just not going to happen, like improved trip. Improved trip requires combat expertise, which requires a 13 base intelligence. While a 13 base intelligence is not hard to get, the fact that you have to get 2 feats in order to get this ability means most barbs will never be able to take it. And even if they could I'm not sure they would. It looks just like lay waste in the dreadnought tree, which can be twisted, but without a +1 crit range, and only a 50% chance to knock down enemies, and with a 45 second cooldown that can't be reset like lay waste and it has an hp cost with it. I would probably still take it just to have 2 super powerful cleave attacks at my disposal, but its not going to happen.

Then there is sundering spin, reduces enemies AC by up to 3 when hit by supreme cleave. AC, meh.

And then Lash Out: it gives supreme cleave a 50% chance to make enemies bleed, stacks up to 5 times, and at the third tier gives 1-3 stacks per activation. The damage I was seeing with all 5 stacks was about 10-20 damage every few seconds. It's not bad, extra damage is extra damage, and unlike storm's eye there are no crazy costs for it, just supreme cleaves usual 10 hp. It's easy to stack; you can usually get all 5 stacks on a mob in 2-3 supreme cleaves. But then it requires slicing blow to get it, a feat not many barbs are going to be willing to take just to get this enhancement. Oh, and it does do the bleed sound effect, so when you jump into the fray and start cleaving, you can expect that sound, multiplied by 10 (or however many enemies you hit).

If some of these enhancements were changed I would be very happy with the new enhancements. There are some cool ideas here that just need some tweaking to really shine and I hope the devs get them right.

mezzorco
07-04-2013, 02:46 PM
I was thinking about a dwarf ravager, with "Throw Your Weight Around" and greataxe enhancement line. Maxing con i think he would do great, thus rising Visage of Terror DC and extending rage duration, but maybe he will end up having low AB.
Anyway str is needed for THF line as well as overwhelming crit, not counting tactical feats (although you will have hands of stone - stunning with con based DC).
My question is, how to balance such a con based build, taking advantage of the "Throw Your Weight Around" enhancement?
Dwarves seem to have potential as barbarians now again, back in the days when half orcs didn't exist, but there are a lot of drawbacks :\

Failedlegend
07-04-2013, 11:28 PM
Barbarian

Again the 3 trees here mix fairly well



Ravager

- Furious Rage I love this one...I get this funny vision of a DnD player getting ****ed because he rolled a one and uses a more powerful attack to spite the things he missed

- I love the Ravager capstone Save and be Paralyzed or Die...nice and flavourful and quite potent

- I like that extend rage is a tier 1 ability so it's easily accessed by non-ravager Barbs. I would still rather see a "General Class" tab for stuff like that and just have to stuff unique to ravager within the tree.

- I like how ritual scarring gives a bonus to haggle...can't really complain about a bonus that everyone uses (and that it comes with Intim/PRR) but it's just really funny envisioning a merchant giving you better prices because they fear you...very appropriate guys.

- Hate threat generate and more damage...whats not to like

- The Pain line just makes me smile and is quite potent.

- Anyways you get the idea...when I first heard the rumor that Ravager was gonna be one of the 3 Barb Prestiges I was a little worried it would just be boring and +X damage and +X crit and son on but you guys did a great job making it flavourful and fun




Frenzied Barb

- Frenzied Barb I won't say much on because it's really not my type of Barb but my friend is salavting over it...in short it does what it's supposed it allows for massive damage at the cost of defense and even mutilating one self in the process..the only thing I'd like to see is the ANgry Arms, Mad Munitions and Focus Wide increase your weapons reach somewhat.



Frenzied Barb

- Frenzied Barb I won't say much on because it's really not my type of Barb but my friend is salavting over it...in short it does what it's supposed it allows for massive damage at the cost of defense and even mutilating one self in the process..the only thing I'd like to see is the ANgry Arms, Mad Munitions and Focus Wide increase your weapons reach somewhat.





Occult Slayer

- Now Occult Slayer...prepare for the long haul...THIS is how I envision Barbarians...your not really a defender leave that to the Fighters, Paladins and Wakut/Tukaw Battle Mages. Your jump is to rush the line, jump over it and smash those puny little spallcasters skulls in...this is the prestige I was waiting for.

- All the Core enhancements are great although I honestly will probably never use the active portion of Weapon Bond (+5 to attack) the bonuses you get from having the bond are just to awesome and a bonus to attack rolls is fairly meh...I'd love it if it applied an effect to your weapon for 12s that causes x% Spell Failure (for any spell not just Arcane) per hit

- Anyways core...2nd core is just a straight up bonus bonus to saving throws and not that I'm complaining but each core ability adds + 1 to your DR...its a good bonus but an odd one for Occult Slayer I'd say make it +1 will save instead

- Core #3 is really nice but it clashes with Vampiric Bond which is gonna go off far more often (your more likely to attack something than your are gonna get hit by magic) I'd like to see Vampiric bond switch with elemental defense than have Elemental defense (as a tier 5 ability) drain Mana and convert it to an equal amount of [url =http://ddowiki.com/page/Protection_from_Elements]Protection from Elements[/quote] IOW if I drain say 5 Mana I gain 5 pts. of each element as the Prot from Elements Spells. Have this happen on-hit in small amounts or just have it happen on Crit 10 pts. per Bard level (so 200 at Lvl 20)


- Core # 4: Slippery Mind - This one is awesome..free feats are great but not only is this perfect flavour wise it's also normally a Rogue only feat so good stuff Note: This Ability say +1 Barb DR twice...dunno if thats intended or not.

- Core # 5: Force Ward - Immunity to Magic Missiles AND 5% chance to essentially "dodge" any force damage nice (honestly when I first say this I thought it 5% reduction in force damage..that was really meh...so luckily I was wrong :D)

- Core# 6: Mind over Magic - This either awesome or terrible depending on how it's read I'm pretty sure it means if I have 20 Constitution I have 20 SR but it could be read as Con MOd...which I'm 99% sure it isn't...any chance I can get some clarification.

- Ear Smash/Knockout: The former is really thematic and quite helpful...even just using that on an enemy healer can make the difference between victory and failure and the sleep/stun of Knock out is useful for everything

- All the weapon bond stuff: Bonus AC not great but it offsets the penalty from Raging so good and really with the new system every pooint of AC helps so really can't complain. PRR woot, Higher critical (especially awesome with no HP req.), Temp HP granted Vampiric bond (see core # 4 for comments), DR bypassing (would like to see this be metalline but otherwise can't complain), extra force damage. Woo I cannot wait to actually play this with my friends on live.

- Arcane encumbrance/Vicious Strike...hahaha punish those buggers for daring to attack me I love it and if that doesn't punish them for casting with PAIN!!!

- Anti-maqic Boost - I personally don't like boosts but for people who do this quite a nice boost.

- Lessons of Travel - Ah the non-boost version I like this

- Lessons of Nature - Kinda meh to be honest...tis a shame its a requirement for Vampiric bond because otherwise I could just ignore it...I'd save replace it with some sort of bonus vs. Undead (namely Vampires)...makes more sense to be a pre-req of Vampiric bond anyways.

thegreatfox
07-08-2013, 06:51 PM
- Core# 6: Mind over Magic - This either awesome or terrible depending on how it's read I'm pretty sure it means if I have 20 Constitution I have 20 SR but it could be read as Con MOd...which I'm 99% sure it isn't...any chance I can get some clarification.


It is based on actual Con score. On lammania I had 50 con, and thus 50 spell resistance, which did not stack with a spell resistance item, I think it says it doesn't stack with drow spell resistance or at one point said that, and I assume not with the spell resistance spell. Not really sure how much spell penetration mobs have, so I'm not really sure if the 50 I had is enough to be an amazing defense against spells or not, but it's certainly more than you will get from any other source. If your con increases such as through raging/primal scream, the spell resistance also rises accordingly. Of the 3 capstones I think this one might be the best with ravager in second. Ravagers is nice but the 1 rage activation cost to kill a single trash mob is a bit pricey.

Delacroix21
07-17-2013, 02:52 AM
I know that this isn't a super in depth review, but its short and to the point:

Occult Slayer:
Fun, good abilities, interesting concept

Cons: weapon bond takes to long to build, reduce weapon bond thingies by half or more

Ravager:
Decent, crit range capstone is strong

Cons: remove the 1 per second on bonus damage, stat damage does nothing in EE, fix needed


Frenzied berserker:
Absolutely horrible

Cons: to many abilities that damage health, this PrE commits suicide while trying to deal damage. Gone are the days where party members would babysit an insane damage dealing barbarian, as now other classes can do the same amount of damage or more and take less damage. This PrE is awful solo as it kills itself, and will be booted from parties as SO MANY lfms these days state: BYOH. Heal blotting is NOT fun, and this class has all but died off in DDO recently, this PrE murders it.




Overall, give barbarians more ways to get temp hit points. This class takes so much damage compared to others, and people hate healing them. Barbarians should do more damage then they do, but an extra 8-10 strength is nothing these days. I am not sure what to do to make this class at least equal to a fighter in terms of dps, while having way less survive ability.

Delacroix21
07-17-2013, 03:02 AM
You need to make DR be counted AFTER PRR, that would increase their survivability a bit. How about making barbarians get double bonus from +hp items like a sorcerer with spell point items? I am not sure how to address barbs desire ability in groups.


At some point in DDO clerics and fvs just decided they don't want to healbot anymore (dont blame them), and you see so many BYoH LFMs these days.

Alkot
07-30-2013, 08:31 AM
Having perused this tree a few times and now more recently looking at the original class ravager I believe that this tree should really get a revamp on a number of its abilities.(Think warchanter tree size change)


First off I think this tree has too little to do with the original class, namely the requirement to be evil and the cut self to activate abilities type effects. I think within the cores there should be one ap that changes your alignment to evil(players have been asking for this for years). The sla type sacrifice abilities should also be tired in as I said, blood lightning blood fireballs and ofc you would need to include fast healing.


Now for the actual tree components:




Furious Rage - Requires: Barbarian Level 1 - When you are raging and miss your attack by rolling 1, you gain Fury for 6 seconds. Fury: +1 Competence bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every 6 seconds.
An odd mechanic I think, miss to do more damage? Consider a +1damage +1dr per core ap aquired.
Pain Touch - Requires: Furious Rage(Rank 1), Barbarian Level 3, 5 Points Spent in Tree - Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.
This really needs to be unthrottled to each attack

Demoralizing Success - Requires: Pain Touch(Rank 1), Barbarian Level 6, 10 Points Spent In Tree - When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw.
I have no idea why this would have such a small dc, consider removing the dc overall or extending it the dc by barb level or strength modifier.

Pain Touch - Requires: Demoralizing Success(Rank 1), Barbarian Level 12, 20 Points Spent In Tree - Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.
Again unthrottle.

Subsiding Fury - Requires: Pain Touch(Rank 1), Barbarian Level 18, 30 Points Spent In Tree - When you use Barbarian Rage, you gain 3 stacks of Fury. Fury: +1 Competence bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every six seconds.I again do not like this fury mechanic at all, I would just cut it out. This seems like a good place to add blood lightning to me

Visage of Terror - Requires: Subsiding Fury(Rank 1), Barbarian Level 20, 40 Points Spent In Tree - Terrorize an enemy, killing them with fear if they fail a Will save vs. 10 + Con mod + half barbarian level. Enemies who make their saving throw are briefly paralyzed with fear instead. Costs 1 Rage. Cooldown: 30 seconds
I have many problems with this capstone. Firstly it is far to weak, i would never take this over a splash of rogue or ftr. This capstone does not give any type of stat, I would say +2str and con would fit well. Lastly, visage of terror is horrible. The dc as it stands is like quivering palm, no one will ever get a viable dc without the new mod items. Consider changing the base to 20. Also expending rages is just not a viable concept for any barbarian, could use this at most once per shrine if that, replace the rage expenditure with an hp cut. 50-100hp should be enough to keep it balenced.
Tier 1


Ritual scarring - Requires: Barbarian Level 1 - +1/+2/+3 Intimidate, Haggle, PRR
Flavorful but I would like to see the unnatural stamina mixed in here, remove incap so that u can attack till u die at -10.
Hate - Requires: Barb Level 1 - Attack: Deals +0.5/1+1/+1.5[W] damage & guarantees extra threat. Cooldown: 15 seconds
Not too far off just a bit behind the curve, top tier should be 2[w], lower cd to 7-10sec
Do you like pain? - Requires: Barb Level 1 - When you are hit: 20/40/60% chance attacker loses 10 AC.
AC loss mechanics have lost a lot of luster, throw in a -10% fort as well.
Cruel Cut - Requires: Barb Level 1 - Melee Attack: Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra con damage as long as you damage your target. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
While at heroic 1-6 this could be powerful enough to helpless alot of mobs this will be completely useless in epic content
Hardy Rage - Requires: Barb Level 1 - +1/+2/+3 Con when raging
Tier 2


Fear Me! - Requires: Ritual Scarring(Rank 1), Barb Level 2 - When you intimidate, affected enemies are Shaken for 6 seconds. DC13
This is just bad imo, few barb tanks fewer who intim and even fewer who would ever want a dc13 shaken on their intim. This does remind me of the draconic roar from DI consider using a similar mechanic?
Mutilate - Requires: Hate(Rank 1), Barb Level 2 - Hate additionally deals 1d4 Charisma damage & 1d4 Evil damage
I like that this does evil damage and adds on to a previous attack, however the values are to little. I also think the range of stat dmg in this tree is too broad, -2 to each stat of a mob is very negligible and even more so to a melee. Cosider changing to 5d4 evil damge.
I like Pain. - Requires: Do you like pain?(Rank 1), Barb Level 2 - When you are hit: Small chance to gain 50 Temp HP.
I think that I like this but I would need to see an exact proc rate first.
Action Boost: Damage(1/3) - Requires: Barb Level 2 - Activate this ability to receive a 10% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
As an idea for fast healing for ravagers consider making it an action boost, multiple selector with dmg boost and do somthing like: For the next 30seconds you gain 5hp per second.
Tier 3


Aura of Fear(1/3) - Requires: Barb Level 3 - Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength & Charisma
A fear aura sounds great for ravager just not this one. Change to -2damage -5ac -2saves.
Slaughter(1/3) - Requires: Barb Level 3 - Melee Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. Cooldown: 2 minutes.
As this stands this is one terrible combat move. 2min cooldown will never work on a melee attack, it just wont be remembered enough for how powerful this move is. Consider changing this to +2crit range 10[w] for a cost of 25hp or move the cooldown to the 20sec range.
Festering Wound(1/3) - Requires: Cruel Cut(Rank 1), Barb Level 3 - Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds & the target loses -50% healing amp for 5 seconds.
Extend this to 12sec, raise the posion damage to 2d6. At thsi point you are starting to get a pretty effective attack.
Con(1/1) - Req: Barb Level 3 - AP Cost: 2 - +1 Con
This should include strength
Tier 4


Laughter(1/1) - Requires: Slaughter (Rank 1), Barb Level 4, 20 Points Spent In Tree - Action Point Cost: 2 - When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain Fury. When Slaughter scores a crit hit on an enemy, you gain a 2nd stack of Fury. When Slaughter scores a vorpal hit on an enemy, you gain a 3rd stack of Fury. Fury: +1 Competence bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every six seconds.With a shortened cooldown on slautghter this mechanic would work much better but, 6sec stacks are too low to ever get them to stack very high.
I Hit Back!(1/3) - Requires: I like Pain.(Rank 1), Barb Level 4, 20 Points Spent In Tree - When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8 chaotic damage to attacker.I like this but consider adding a crippling effect or possibly 1neg level on proc.
Dismember(1/3) - Requires: Festering Wound(Rank 1), Barb Level 4, 20 Points Spent In Tree - Melee Attack: Enemy movement speed is slowed, or attack speed is slowed, or receives 2d4 chaotic damage, or receives 6d4 chaotic damage.
I like the randomness of this randomness consider making the slow portions perma and the chaotic damage scale for leveling: 1d2 per barb level and 1d6 per barb level.
Con(1/1) - Requires: Barb Level 4, 20 Points Spent In Tree - AP Cost: 2 - Gain +1 Con.
[edit] Tier 5

This by far is the best tier for ravager and doesn't need any removal, but the addition I listed could be nice and flavorful.

Barbarian Power Attack(1/3) - Requires: Barb Level 5, 40 Points Spent In Tree - Action Point Cost: 2 - Your Power Attack feat does 1 addtional point of bonus damage but also has an additional -1 to your attack bonus.
Next to power attack add a stance that increases your pain touch by 1d6 per rank and deals 1 damage to you on hit.
Bully(1/3) - Requires: I Hit Back!(Rank 1), Barb Level 5, 40 Points Spent In Tree - You deal +5% damage to helpless enemies.
Critical Rage(1/2) - Requires: Dismember(Rank 1), Barb Level 5, 40 Points Spent In Tree - Action Point Cost: 2 - Increases your crit threat range by 1 when raging.

Alkot
08-05-2013, 11:48 AM
bumping this thread because i really think these trees still need work

Alkot
08-11-2013, 02:53 PM
Ill bump this again, honestly it amazes me that how little attention this thread is getting compared to all other trees, in some cases there are 1000% more activity counting even my last 3 posts here.
Imo all three barbarian trees need to to be adjusted before going live, I would hope others do not prefer barbarians to be this unpopular on live.

jalont
08-11-2013, 05:07 PM
Ill bump this again, honestly it amazes me that how little attention this thread is getting compared to all other trees, in some cases there are 1000% more activity counting even my last 3 posts here.
Imo all three barbarian trees need to to be adjusted before going live, I would hope others do not prefer barbarians to be this unpopular on live.

I will say this... the threes are at least 10 times better than what we have on live. Barbarians will always be unpopular on live. This is because self healing really isn't a real option. You would have to change everything that makes a barb a barb in order for this to no longer be an issue.

Then what would you have? A fighter that just does things differently.

Alkot
08-11-2013, 05:52 PM
I will say this... the threes are at least 10 times better than what we have on live. Barbarians will always be unpopular on live. This is because self healing really isn't a real option. You would have to change everything that makes a barb a barb in order for this to no longer be an issue.

Then what would you have? A fighter that just does things differently.

I agree with this partially, I think that while self healing has skewed party strategy to a very self oriented version at endgame. ATM there are just no incentives to work as a team for he most part, I think adding more powerful functions of the things that barbarians "tough" would help them survive in current endgame without having to nerf heal scrolls, cocoon and w/e else. Think more emphasis on powers like uncanny dodge, fast healing, and DR. Most of these powers are flawed in that they do not scale forwardly into the inflated numbers that progress from lvl18-28. While mobs are still hitting for 30, 40, 50 DR/9 is still a very powerful damage reduction. The case does not hold up while mobs are hitting for 100, 200, 300, 400, at that point the entirety of barbarian fully invested damage reduction is of so overly dwarfed by these numbers you may as well not have it. In fact with all endgame damage numbers the sapphire of resistance gives your a larger percentage of DR using either the 12 or 14 prr version.

Consider changing barbarian damage reduction to scale in a more scale able function, revise the feat to begin at lvl1 barb and progress at a rate of 1.5DR-2DR per barbarian level. This will land final numbers at very much more useful at endgame and on the way to cap.
lvl5 7-10
lvl10 15-20
lvl15 22-30
lvl20 30-40
Looking at these numbers either would be imo within a reasonable power level for their level, however 1.5 per level would allow for more expansion. Think with occult slayer: Add a 2-4-6 DR t1 or t2 AP and at the same time with one of the higher core abilities it could be added that the DR multiplier could be changed from 1.5 to 2.0.
For a total of 46 DR given a full spec into the ability.

As for fast healing(which I think is very important to have in the ravager tree) a similar type scaling mechanic would need to be in place for this to work from 1-28 without being under or over powered at any 1 point.
Traditionally fast healing is a ability that regains 1hp per round, not only do rounds not really translate perfectly to ddo this rate of heal would diminish while gaining levels.
If done round-1sec than... 60hp per min would take more than minutes to heal a 1k hp barb(that may be an understated hp value come the EP)

I suggest completely reinventing the values and system for ddo(These are merely suggested values):
1d6hp per level every 30sec, non effected by spell power (possibly exclude heal amp to keep from becoming overpowered)
Avg hp per min:
5: 35
10: 70
20: 140

Baseline values listed here while helpful to self healing (and what I think is flavorful to the class) is not enough to sustain themselves at full health at any level.

Expansion through ravager core enhancements: Your Fast healing ability now regenerates health every 20 seconds rather than 30.

As for the Fotw fast healing expanded or not it should sync up at 1min and give a double burst of healing should it be taken. I do not think addition of this would require a revamp of that ability at all.


My 2cp

mezzorco
08-12-2013, 04:17 AM
In D&D, fighters and barbarians make the frontline of any group. The main difference between tanky fighter and barbarian are:

- barbarian has quite more hp
- fighter has more AC
- barbarian has damage reduction

So, while fighters rely on their shield, barbarians ARE meat shields.

In DDO mechanics and balance are different from D&D, but the feel should be the same. What I suggest for barbarians:

1. Double hp from false life effects
2. Make them gain more hp from con modifier, for instance 1.2 hp per con mod per level. At level 25, +2 con would be 30 hp instead of 25, a mostly thematic change
3. DR is essential to barbarians, but game scaling makes it pointless. I suggest one of the following:
3.1 make them gain double PRR from any source (remember that PRR function is logarithmic and caps at 65%)
3.2 make a unique PRR funcion for them that caps at 75% (i.e. (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.75 instead of (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65)

Hajutze
08-12-2013, 06:47 AM
TBH the only reason I'd use barbarian levels is for a splash of 3 levels for the free Cleave-like Enhancement. Almost 1/2 of the CD, does the same [W] as GCleave for the cost of 13 AP (heck the rogue equivalent requires 12 AP on itself and the preq. alone.

Having a lot of fun with a warforged wizard/barb/druid on the dojo kobolts (too lazy to actually try him on the "field")

Druid - beguile + heal
Wizard - Tensar + Healing + buffs and whatnot. Wraith for 35% incorp, some dodge etc etc
Barb - 5 rages per rest, lasting 115s each for +7 str (immuned to the fatigue cuz wf), PA enhancement and the furious rage core actually procs quite often.
WF - fatigue immunity, Glancing blows, PA enhancement (not sure if stacks actually) and + 0,5[W]

I know it's not optimal and etc, just saying - barb is a nice splash xD

Uidolon
08-12-2013, 09:42 AM
when you realised the single PrE frenzied i shelved my barbs and have not played any of them since didnt even try out taking FB had 0 intrested in the class after that.

now occult and ravager is both PrE that if they are "effective" enough ill roll up one and test it out on live. ill probably roll one of each on live and compare them. dont like doing things halfhearted so not trying out them on lamma since i have no confidence you would pay any attention to my feedback and as such its a waste of my time.

if you make them unbalanced i will take whatever is brokenly OP and abuse it to death thats how i roll i find the weak link and then i abuse it so do your best to balance them, id be willing to bet money onmyself finding a OP build against you the developers managing to balance them if its a fun to play OP build is a totally diffrent story.

XxJFGxX
11-04-2013, 04:49 PM
Bumping this thread