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SqueakofDoom
04-29-2013, 06:18 PM
Paladin Enhancements are currently available on Lamannia.

Please share your thoughts on the Paladin Enhancement Trees!

~KrelarVersion2
04-29-2013, 07:22 PM
My goal with this comparison was to see how close to my current build I would be able to get with the new enhancements. I make no claims for my current build to be in any way the best and the test build is just seeing how close I can get to me current build. My current build is what works for me when I solo and during guild runs.

Level 25 Human Paladin, Defender of Siberys, Unyielding Sentinel. TR (1 Paladin past life) Sword and board. High healing amp (Vampirism from Nightmare is usually enough to keep me at full heath against anything except raid bosses on EH).

Old Enhancements:


Paladin:

Armor Class Boost I (+5 AC, 20 seconds)
Capstone: Weapons of Good (all weapons treated as good, 1d6 Holy damage vs evil, 2d6 light damage vs undead/evil outsiders)
Divine Might III (+6 Damage for 1 minute, Sacred Bonus)
Divine Sacrifice III (9d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and 1 SP)
Exalted Smite II (smite evil gains +1 critical threat and damage)
Extra Smite Evil IV (+4 Uses of Smite Evil)
Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat for 1 minute)
Toughness II (20 HP)
Extra Lay on Hands I (+1 Uses of lay on Hands)
Charisma I

Aura:
Courage of Good I (+2 saves vs fear)
Focus of Good I (+3 concentration)
Bulwark of Good III (+3 AC)
Resistance of Good III (+3 Saves)

Defender of Siberys III
+6 Strength (Sacred Bonus)
+6 Constitution (Sacred Bonus)
+20% Hit Points
+ 3 Saves (Sacred Bonus)
+20 Physical Resistance
+75% Threat when using a Shield
+40% AC from armor and shields
-10% Movement speed penalty
+2 Turn Undead Uses
+1 Lay on Hands
+3 Max Dex bonus to AC with Tower Shields and Heavy Armor
Magic Circle against Evil
Mass Shield of Faith
Glorious Stand (DR 20/EPIC, double healing effects, etc)

Human:

Human Adaptability I (Strength)
Improved Recovery III (Healing Amp 30%)
Toughness II (20 HP)

Other:

Unyielding Sovereignty (Fully heal, remove all status effects 10 min cool down)
Follower of the Sovereign Host (+1 hit with long swords, grant longsword proficiency)



New Enhancements:


Paladin:

Hunter of the Dead I (+1 hit and 1d6 damage vs undead, free)
Divine Might II (+Charisma Mod to Strength for 1 minute (+10 for me), Sacred Bonus does not stack with +6 from stance enhancements, tier 3 is the same but duration is boosted to 2 minutes)
Divine Sacrifice III (9d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and 1 SP)
Exalted Smite II (smite evil gains +1 critical threat and damage, +2 Uses per rest)
Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat, temp HP equal to charisma for 1 minute)
Extra Lay on Hands II (+2 Uses of lay on Hands)
Charisma I
+3 Turn Undead Uses (Needed to unlock higher tiers for Divine Might and Divine Sacrifice)
+3 Max Dex bonus to AC with Tower Shields and Heavy Armor
+10% Healing Amp (Vigor of Life)
+15% Shield AC

Aura:
+3 AC
+2 Saving throws

Sacred Defense (w/ Extra tree enhancements)
+6 Strength (Sacred Bonus even though it says Competence Bonus)
+6 Constitution (Sacred Bonus even though it says Competence Bonus)
+20% Hit Points
+3 Saves (Competence Bonus)
+25 PPR (10 base, 15 from enhancements)
+125% Threat (50% Base, 75% from enhancements, not sure if they stack but should otherwise the first 2 tiers of enhancements are redundant)
+30% AC Armor and Shields
-10% Movement speed penalty

+55 Hit Points (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+55 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+6% Fortification (From Holy Bastion core ability)

Human:

Human Adaptability I (Strength)
Improved Recovery I (Healing Amp 10%)
Defense Boost I (+10 AC and PPR, 20 seconds)



Net Gain:

+5 PPR
+50% Threat (Not sure on this depends on how the extra enhancements stack with the base stance)
+55 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+15 Hit Points (+55 From Holy Bastion core ability -40 From loss of toughness enhancements)
+6% Fortification (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+1 Turn Undead
+1 minute to Divine Might Duration
+5% Shield AC

Net Loss:

-Improved Recovery III (10% Healing Amp)
-Capstone:
--All weapons treated as good aligned
--1d6 holy damage vs evil, 1d6 light damage versus undead/evil outsiders (only loss of 1d6 versus one type by choosing hunter of dead/knight of chalice I for free)
-10% AC from Armor
-4 Net Damage from Divine Might Changes (Due to stacking issues)
-2 Smite Evil Uses
-Magic Circle against Evil
-Mass Shield of Faith
-Glorious Stand (DR 20/EPIC, double healing effects, etc)
-Unyielding Sovereignty (Follower of the Sovereign Host is selectable as a bonus feat at level 1 but no higher tiers exist yet)
Aura:
-1 Saves
-2 saves vs fear
-3 concentration

Conclusion:
Trying to do straight up recreation of my toon does not look very viable to me. I lose quite a bit for only minor gains. I'm going to have to do a lot of experimenting to come up with a new alternative.

~KrelarVersion2
04-29-2013, 07:23 PM
Attempt 2:

This time I'm going to try to work in the Defender capstone. Since Divine Might does not stack, I am going to skip the defender stance strength enhancements and plan on keeping divine might up most of the time.


Paladin:

Hunter of the Dead I (+1 hit and 1d6 damage vs undead, free)
Courage of heaven I (1d6 versus evil)
Divine Might III (+Charisma Mod to Strength for 2 minutes (+10 for me), Sacred Bonus does not stack with +6 from stance enhancements)
Divine Sacrifice I (5d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and 1 SP)
Exalted Smite III (smite evil gains +1 critical threat and +2 damage, +3 Uses per rest)
Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat, temp HP equal to charisma for 1 minute)
+3 Turn Undead Uses (Needed to unlock higher tiers for Divine Might and Divine Sacrifice)
+3 Max Dex bonus to AC Armor
+1 Max Dex bonus with Tower Shields
+20% Healing Amp (Vigor of Life II)
+5% Shield AC
+Redemption (Adds raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection as spells)
+Eternal Defender (+2 Charisma, automatic 250 heal if knocked unconscious but not killed, unconscious extended to -50 HP, costs 2 turn undead)
Aura:
+5 AC
+3 Saving throws

Sacred Defense (w/ Extra tree enhancements)
+6 Constitution (Sacred Bonus even though it says Competence Bonus)
+20% Hit Points
+3 Saves (Competence Bonus)
+25 PPR (10 base, 15 from enhancements)
+125% Threat (50% Base, 75% from enhancements, not sure if they stack but should otherwise the first 2 tiers of enhancements are redundant)
+50% AC Armor and Shields
-10% Movement speed penalty

+53 Hit Points (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+53 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+12% Fortification (From Holy Bastion core ability)

Human:

Human Adaptability I (Strength)
Improved Recovery I (Healing Amp 10%)
Defense Boost I (+10 AC and PPR, 20 seconds)



Net Gain:

+Access to raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection
+1 Critical Damage multiplier on smites
+5 PPR
+10% AC from Armor
+15% AC from shields
+50% Threat (Not sure on this depends on how the extra enhancements stack with the base stance)
+53 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+13 Hit Points (+53 From Holy Bastion core ability -40 From loss of toughness enhancements)
+12% Fortification (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+1 Turn Undead
+1 minute to Divine Might Duration
+1 Charisma
+ Automatic 250 heal if knocked unconscious but not killed
+Unconscious extended to -50 HP

Aura:
+2 AC

Net Loss:

-Capstone:
--All weapons treated as good aligned
--1d6 damage versus undead/evil outsiders (only loss of 1d6 versus one type by choosing hunter of dead/knight of chalice I for free)
-4d6 light damage from lower tier divine sacrifice
-6 Strength (Made up for as long as I keep divine might going all the time)
-2 Lay on hands uses
-4 Net Damage from Divine Might Changes (Due to stacking issues)
-1 Smite Evil Uses
-2 Max Dex bonus when using Tower Shields (I don't currently so not a big loss)
-Magic Circle against Evil
-Mass Shield of Faith
-Unyielding Sovereignty (Follower of the Sovereign Host is selectable as a bonus feat at level 1 but no higher tiers exist yet)
Aura: (Neither of these seem like a huge loss)
-2 saves vs fear
-3 concentration

Conclusion:
It looks like I have to give up a lot of damage for a moderate increase in AC/survivability with this build. Considering I had very little trouble surviving before I don't see this as an improvement.

~KrelarVersion2
04-29-2013, 07:23 PM
Attempt 3:

Here I tried to get the Knight of the Chalice capstone while still grabbing as much defender stuff as I could.


Paladin:

Hunter of the Dead III (+2 hit and 2d6 damage vs undead, save or die on vorpal, 500 light damage on save/immune)
Divine Might III (+Charisma Mod to Strength for 2 minutes (+10 for me), Sacred Bonus does not stack with +6 from stance enhancements)
Divine Sacrifice III (9d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and 1 SP)
Exalted Smite IV (smite evil gains +2 critical threat and damage, +4 Uses per rest)
Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat, temp HP equal to charisma for 1 minute)
+3 Turn Undead Uses (Needed to unlock higher tiers for Divine Might and Divine Sacrifice)
+3 Max Dex bonus to AC with Heavy Armor
+Remove Disease applies a lesser restoration effect (I needed one more AP to get capstone and had already taken everything useful)
+30% Healing Amp (Vigor of Life III)
+Immunity to energy drain (Sealed life)
+2d6 damage vs evil (Courage of heaven)
+Capstone:
All weapons treated as good aligned
1d6 holy damage vs evil, 2d6 light damage versus evil outsiders
2 Charisma

Sacred Defense (w/ Extra tree enhancements)
+6 Constitution (Sacred Bonus even though it says Competence Bonus)
+20% Hit Points
+3 Saves (Competence Bonus)
+25 PPR (10 base, 15 from enhancements)
+125% Threat (50% Base, 75% from enhancements, not sure if they stack but should otherwise the first 2 tiers of enhancements are redundant)
+30% AC Armor
+15% AC Shields
-10% Movement speed penalty

+34 Hit Points (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+34 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+6% Fortification (From Holy Bastion core ability)

Human:

Human Adaptability I (Strength)
Improved Recovery I (Healing Amp 10%)
Defense Boost I (+10 AC and PPR, 20 seconds)


Net Gain:

+2d6 Damage vs evil
+10% Healing Amp
+1 to critical threat and damage on smites
+5 PPR
+50% Threat (Not sure on this depends on how the extra enhancements stack with the base stance)
+34 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+6% Fortification (From Holy Bastion core ability)
+1 Turn Undead
+1 minute to Divine Might Duration
+Disruption like effect versus undead
+Remove Disease applies a lesser restoration effect
+Immunity to energy drain
+1 Charisma

Net Loss:

-2 Lay on hands
-6 Strength while in defender stance
-6 Hit Points (+34 From Holy Bastion core ability -40 From loss of toughness enhancements)
-3 Max dex bonus from tower shields
-10% AC from Armor
-25% Shield AC
-4 Net Damage from Divine Might Changes (Due to stacking issues)
-Magic Circle against Evil
-Mass Shield of Faith
-Glorious Stand (DR 20/EPIC, double healing effects, etc)
-Unyielding Sovereignty (Follower of the Sovereign Host is selectable as a bonus feat at level 1 but no higher tiers exist yet)

Aura:
-3 AC
-3 Saves
-2 saves vs fear
-3 concentration

Conclusion:
There is not much wiggle room in the KOTC tree. I took everything that looked at all interesting to me and still had to spend 1 more AP to get the capstone. At least this version gives me a bit more damage than I have on live. (as long as I am fighting evil or undead and keep divine might running) I'll have to try it out for a while to see if the increased healing amp makes up for the loss of lay on hands and AC as far as my survivability is concerned. I think this may be the best of the three builds so far but I am not particularly happy with any of them. I'll wait and see if any changes are made that make things look better.

~Texlaw1990
04-29-2013, 11:44 PM
I like the new enhancements, but a few comments:

1. I seem to have lost 10 PRR with the new system. I think the additional 10 PRR you get from the base SD stance either is not being applied properly or the enhancement which restores movement rate has the effect of negating the entire base SD stance.

2. Exalted smite is not providing extra smites and is only proccing as "normal" smites.

3. What exactly is the new 8 second smite period supposed to do? I thought it could effectively provide endless smiting, but those who have tested it say it only applies a small 8 second debuff to mobs. If so, why can't pallys have endless smiting? Just increase both duration and cooldown to 8 seconds so we can have barbs saying "dang, what happened to you guys!"

Just my two cents.

~SteelesTrueheart
05-03-2013, 10:16 AM
Knight of the chalice:

Core:

Slayer of Evil 1: +1 to-hit, +1d6 damage, +2 to saves vs. either undead or evil outsiders.

Courage of Heaven: Your aura of courage grants an additional +2 sacred bonus to saves against fear and now grants +2 sacred bonus to saves against enchantment. You also gain +1d6 damage to attacks against all evil enemies.

Slayer of Evil 2: You choice in slayer of evil 1 gets improved to +2, +2d6, +3

Improved Courage of heaven: Saves improved by an additional +2. Damage bonus increased to 2d6

Slayer of evil 3: Your choice in slayer of evil 1 gets improved to +4, +4d6, +4

Champion of Good: +2 Cha, courage of heaven improved by an additional +2, weapons considered good aligned, and +1d6 holy damage against evil, and an additional +2d6 light damage against evil outsiders and undead.

Considering the level requirements, Slayer of Evil could be both evil outsiders and undead and you would not make Paladins too powerful.

Tier 1:

Extra turning (3 ranks) (1AP): +1/2/3 turn attempts

Either add the Tier 2 ability 'Improved Turning' to this or add this to each tier of the core Courage of Heaven/capstone. These are slightly useful as the undead hunter Pre now longer gives additional turns.

Divine Light (3 ranks)(1 AP): Your Turn Undead ability now also deals +6d6/+12d6/+18d6 light damage to nearby undead.

Extra remove disease (3 ranks): +2/4/6 uses of remove disease

Exalted Smite (2 AP): +1 Smite evil, and +1 crit multiplier on smite evil

Decent idea to roll up the extra smite with exalted smite. Bugged by not granting extra smites, crits work though, no mention of cooldown reduction

Attack Boost (3 ranks)(2 AP): +4/6/8 to hit for 20 seconds


Tier 2:

Improved Turning (requires extra turning)(3 ranks) (1AP): +1/2/3 levels when turning, and +2/4/6 HD turned.

Pointless ability add it to the tier 1 extra turning enhancement with the 1AP cost still, or remove it. I have never seen a paladin turn with any success and after level 4, why would you even try?

Divine Might (3 ranks)(2 AP): You gain your charisma modifier to strength as a sacred bonus for 30/60/120 seconds (20 seconds CD)

I think I lose out with this one, but I like the duration increase

Rally (3 ranks): Channel divinity remove fear from target. Target gets +0/4/4 morale to will saves vs. fear and +0/0/2 to attack for 60 seconds.

I have a spell to do this, in fact it makes a player immune to fear and not much else at that spell level to slot in so why waste AP?

Exalted Smite (Requires Exalted Smite rank 1)(2 AP): +1 Smite evil and +1 crit range and multiplier on smites

Damage boost (Requires Attack Boost)(3 ranks)(2 AP): +10/20/30% damage for 20 seconds.

Damage boost is nice but pre req of attack boost is not. Since I have several boosts, where is my extra action boosts choice? I guess I found what could replace Improved Turning. Plus both are expensive.


Tier 3:

Improved Restoration (3 ranks): Your Paladin Remove Disease ability also now applies a lesser restoration\restoration\greater restoration effect on the target

Flavourful, but I probably do not have enough AP, wasn't this included in the hunter of the dead PRE for free, now it costs?

Divine Sacrifice (3 ranks)(2 AP): +1 Crit multiplier on attack, and 5d6/7d6/9d6 light damage, but costs 5 HP and 1 SP.

would like it as the tiers to give: Activated attack gives +1[W]/+1 Crit multi/+1 crit range and 5d6/7d6/9d6, but costs 5 HP and 1 SP.

Vigor of life (2 AP): +10% healing amp

Yay!.. Wait.... ? Was part of a PRE for free now it costs me AP! D'oh!

Exalted Smite (requires exalted smite rank 2)(2 AP): +1 Smite evil, gives +2 multiplier and +1 threat on smites

Str or Cha (2 AP): +1 Str or Cha


Tier 4:

Censure Demons (2 AP): Vorpals stun chaotic evil outsiders for 3 seconds

An exceedingly small enemy population with a low chance to proc with a very short duration = stupid waste of AP

Passion (requires divine sacrifice)(3 ranks): Divine Sacrifice gains: On damage: Gain 1/3/6 temp SP if used on EO/Undead

So essentially SP free divine sacrifice, but since the SP will probably not stack, it could not power anything else. I never run out of SP so this is a waste of a whole Tier 4 (!) enhancement slot

Vigor of life (requires Vigor of life rank 1)(2 AP): +10% Healing Amp

Exalted Smite: +1 Smite evil use. +2 Crit multiplier and threat range on smites

Since these are limited number of uses per 'day' and the Epic destiny ability does NOT reduce the recharge time, I would love to see maybe a +1/2/3 [w] damage bonus added or something like "this adds +2/+4/+6 effective paladin levels to your smite evil ability" this would make it like a spellcasters extra caster level increases to spells.

Str or Cha (requires Str or Cha rank 1)(2 AP): +1 Str or Cha


Tier 5:

Censure Outsiders (2 AP): Censure Demons now also works on evil or chaotic outsiders

Still a small enemy population, make them both 1AP and then... maybe but not at Tier 5 (!)

Vigor of Life (requires vigor of life rank 2)(2 AP): +10% Healing Amp

Holy Retribution (3 ranks)(2 AP): CD 6 seconds. Channel Divinity: Executes a powerful strike against the target that deals +1W/+2W/+3W damage. On damage: Undead/EO with less than 1k hp have a 50%/75%/100% chance of having to make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha modifier) or be destroyed. On a successful save it deals 100 holy damage.

I have not actually been able to test this yet, but as written, is this the Worst Tier 5 ability out there? A little extra damage, to a subset of weak mobs for a chance to force them to make a not so difficult save. I would hope at the very least the last sentence should say "On targets above 1000HP, or who make a successful save, it deals 100 holy damage."

Though I would like to see it lose either the HP limit or the % chance. I would also like for each tier to up the DC from 1/2 paladin level --> 3/4 paladin level --> paladin level with the damage being 100/150/200

Sealed Life (2 AP): Immunity to energy drain

General comments:

Would like to see a devotion line come back in either tree.

Whatever happened to maybe having AP costs go down in higher tiers like the old 4/2/2 ones. Some of the lacklustre ones it could be beneficial to have a 2/1/1 cost progression.

Saving this post often to avoid forum log outs losing everything

SisAmethyst
05-04-2013, 09:45 AM
I am very unhappy that you mixed up the 'Hunter of the Dead' with 'The Knight of Chalice'. Previously one could put points in Extra Lay on Hands to qualify for higher levels of Exalted Smite, now I have to waste points in Divine Light or Extra Turning to get to the higher tiers, as a core functionality of each Paladin (Lay on Hands) is only available to the Defender? Sure, it's easy to mix points in both trees, but points in one tree don't qualify for the next tier in the other.

Paladin is one of those example where I would have wished for a core class tree that provide us the generic paladin skills like smiting and lay on hands, while the specific traits, like Censure Demon or Greater Sacred Defense are in the dedicated Pre Trees.

If you mixed those two because you think you haven't enough stuff to fill a whole separate tree for 'Hunter of the Dead' and 'The Knight of Chalice' why you didn't provided some skill that boost/modify the power of the holy weapon? Or in general something like a clicky that add temporary the silver trait to a weapon as like the artificer spell does, which you could provide as a tier 4 ability. Then move the tier 3 and 4 smiting lines down to tier 1 and 2 as a multi select. To avoid increasing this too early either add a minimum charisma modifier on it or do it like you previously did in the Exalted Angel tree, where you needed 'Healing Power' and 'Radiant Power' to unlock 'Endless Faith'. By the way, any way to increase light/holy/cure (spell) damage?

Also 'Vigor of Life' is Tier 3-4-5? I mean if it would have been at least 1-3-5, but previously it was part of the Pre. This is very disappointing!

Or move the Extra Lay on Hand in the 'Hunter of the Dead' tree and split the multi-select in the 'Sacred Defender' tree (e.g. Durable Defense) in a separate line as like it is now on live.

I mean just cluttering the tree with some places where we can distribute our points doesn't mean to provide us choices. Previously we could choose to distribute in things like: Courage o. G., Bulwark o. G., Focus o. G., Resistance o. G., Charisma, Divine Sacrifice, Extra LoH, Energy of the Templar, Devotion, Advanced Belief etc. to qualify for higher tiers of Exalted Smite and Divine Might. We could choose what we think is a good option. Some of those are even totally gone or moved to higher level tiers. Now we have to waste AP in useless things. You stripped the already difficult class from its options. I mean hat was exactly what a lot of people feared when changing to the new tree model in regards of multiclass, for the Paladin you seem to have managed to destroy this even for the pure class...

...sorry but I am just totally underwhelmed by this!

~SteelesTrueheart
05-04-2013, 10:14 AM
Knight of the Chalice: New vs Old

Winner: New, by a slight margin.

In the new system access is earlier (you can have tier 1 after your very first action point at level 1!), requires less AP and other Core abilities grant even more damage. You receive almost the same benefits with far less cost. The only downside? You no longer receive extra smite evil charges per tier which lowers your burst damage potential. I think this is nicely outweighed by the extra constant damage from Courage of Heaven.

Hunter of the Dead: New vs Old

Winner: Old, by leaps and bounds

In the old system HotD had many more benefits for far less cost.
It required you to have spent ~6 'useless' AP on pre-requisites and 8 AP on the PrE, so let's say 14 AP worth, worse case scenario.
But you received the following:
+2/+4/+6 additional turning attempts (now separate and costs 3 AP for a maximum of 3 extra turns)
+2/+4/+6 additional remove disease attempts (now separate and costs 3 AP)
+2/+4/+6 saves vs undead (this is sort of now within the core so going to call it even)
+1/+2/+3 to your level when turning (this was on top of the 'useless' AP you had to spend on improved turning already – improved turning in the new system also gives HD turned benefits, so I will be generous and call this even)
+10/20/30% healing amp (this now costs 6 AP)
-10/20/30% negative energy damage (this is not available any more)
Your weapons were considered ghost touch (this is not available any more)
Lesser/Normal/Greater Restorations powered by Remove disease (now separate and costs 3?AP)
Sealed spirit (now separate and costs 2AP)
Passive undead disruption effect with DC30 on all vorpals. This is now an active ability that also works on evil outsiders for the low low price of 6AP, though now it is holy damage instead of light damage.

Old cost 14 AP vs New cost 23AP with several abilities not now in the new system. Ghost touch most notably.

SisAmethyst
05-04-2013, 10:32 AM
Hunter of the Dead was a nice levelling option and provided some nice solo options as in later game you don't have that much of undeads (Abbot and new Raid aside). While having quite some demons in the later game and an overall more power focused line gave Knight of the Chalice something. While you demonstrated that KotC now has early access, I do indeed miss the burst damage potential and some other things along the line. I mean, granted, for a new players that is still low level the situation may look different, but at level 20+ I don't care much if I got early access to KotC.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect that we can completely recreate our character or blindly follow old guides like Junt's build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/218542-A-Guide-to-Creating-Paladins). But if one like KrelarVersion2 demonstrated would like to stay as close as possible to what we have, the difference is huge and not always beneficial.

It really looks more like someone rolled a dice to randomly distribute powers of previously three Pre into two trees. As like Krelar said "... It looks like I have to give up a lot of damage for a moderate increase in AC/survivability with this build. Considering I had very little trouble surviving before I don't see this as an improvement...". Sure there may be always some filler points to distribute, and sure we may loose there and gain on an other end, but currently I really have hard times with the current trees.

Anyway, will try to see how I can get the best out of the new tree...

SisAmethyst
05-05-2013, 11:01 AM
Your weapons were considered ghost touch (this is not available any more)

Just checked, if you choose "Hunter of the Dead" at "Slayer of Evil I" you still get with "Slayer of Evil II", "Hunter of the Dead II" which provide you with:
- +2 to attack undead
- 2d6 additional against undead
- +3 versus spells against effects produced by undead
- all attacks are considered ghost touch

~Blacksoft
05-10-2013, 02:13 PM
Paladin Enhancements are available on Lamannia this week.

Please share your thoughts on the Paladin Enhancement Trees!

As someone who would want play KOTC tree, I am seeing a net loss of LOH charges (these are one of the bread and butter abilities of the paladin).

On live, Defender line already gets extra LOH charges per each tier as well as the enhancement LOH.

As it stands for new, only seeing +3 in the enhancement tree of Defender.

Please make each five paladin levels automatically add extra charge of LOH - 1,5,10,15,and 20.

Thank you

SilkofDrasnia
05-19-2013, 04:15 PM
I was disgusted with the changes before the forum changes so haven't actually logged in lam to test any of this but having played kotc and hotd as mains, hotd being the more recent I am wondering what the reason was in taking a core class ability like loh and sticking it in dos tree?

Overall all these enhancement shenanigans have turned me off DDO really badly, will just tr and not spend a single stinking penny in this game anymore till I can digest this farce.

nni
05-19-2013, 06:30 PM
I was disgusted with the changes before the forum changes so haven't actually logged in lam to test any of this but having played kotc and hotd as mains, hotd being the more recent I am wondering what the reason was in taking a core class ability like loh and sticking it in dos tree?
Because every class enhancement has to fall within a prestige tree. There's no longer generic class enhancements. So if you want extra lay on hands just spend the required points in the DoS tree. That's the kind of thing every single character will do.

oradafu
05-19-2013, 10:22 PM
I was disgusted with the changes before the forum changes so haven't actually logged in lam to test any of this but having played kotc and hotd as mains, hotd being the more recent I am wondering what the reason was in taking a core class ability like loh and sticking it in dos tree?

Overall all these enhancement shenanigans have turned me off DDO really badly, will just tr and not spend a single stinking penny in this game anymore till I can digest this farce.

If you look at the two trees, KOTC is more offensive and Defender is more defensive. Since Lay On Hands is a generic Paladin ability, the logical point would be to stick it into the Defender tree. I'll add that I agree with Blacksoft that more Lay On Hands should be included via Paladin levels or at least in the Core Abilities of both trees.

The Lay On Hands are low enough in the tree that any pure Paladin can grab them. Splashed Paladins might have to decide if they want to give up one tree for more Lay On Hands.

To be honest, I'm more concerned that a pure KOTC Paladin who wants to use the Fury ED will be saddled with a bunch of Defender stance abilities that clash with the ED. Currently on live, the stance doesn't work with Fury; but when the new stuff was on Lamannia they worked together... So I'm not sure if the Devs decided to allow Fury to work with the Defender stance or if that was one of the many broken things with the enhancements that will eventually be fixed. I suspect it will be fixed so the two can't work.

SilkofDrasnia
05-20-2013, 07:17 PM
If you look at the two trees, KOTC is more offensive and Defender is more defensive. Since Lay On Hands is a generic Paladin ability, the logical point would be to stick it into the Defender tree. I'll add that I agree with Blacksoft that more Lay On Hands should be included via Paladin levels or at least in the Core Abilities of both trees.

The Lay On Hands are low enough in the tree that any pure Paladin can grab them. Splashed Paladins might have to decide if they want to give up one tree for more Lay On Hands.

To be honest, I'm more concerned that a pure KOTC Paladin who wants to use the Fury ED will be saddled with a bunch of Defender stance abilities that clash with the ED. Currently on live, the stance doesn't work with Fury; but when the new stuff was on Lamannia they worked together... So I'm not sure if the Devs decided to allow Fury to work with the Defender stance or if that was one of the many broken things with the enhancements that will eventually be fixed. I suspect it will be fixed so the two can't work.

I have been playing dps paladins since 2009, the issues isn't dos vs kotc the issues is they stuck kotc and hotd together and jammed in generic enhancements nilly willy. I also play pure pallies btw. No the issues is with pallies you already have hard choices to make all around and these changes make the choices even harder.

See Steeles post he seems to get the general gist of what bothers me. All in all they seem to be trying to turn this into something closer to 4e.

Dunno maybe I am getting to old to like such changes or just don't like having my toons guts ripped out. Maybe it's because I have stopped playing my fave game ddo since the forum"upgrade" and I am enjoying neverwinter but know it won't last and I am worried they are making ddo closer to to what neverwinter is.

I really really loved playing my pally.....

btolson
05-21-2013, 03:38 PM
Now that I can finally log in and post again, I'll offer some thoughts I jotted down a couple weeks ago.


General

I started out by trying to replicate my live build: a Defender of Siberys with smites, DS and capstone. This proved to be impossible. I was able to get fairly close by sacrificing all aura-boosting enhancements (which is a bit painful) and all of the AC-related enhancements (which are mostly useless anyway, I suppose). Overall the Sacred Defender PrE is very expensive, has too many dependencies which do not exist on live, sacrifices too much damage potential by focusing heavily on it, and the capstone connected to it is pure garbage.


Sacred Defender

Stance Improvements: These are very expensive and annoyingly arranged. Ideally these would all be a-la-carte and not part of a chain (so I could dump +threat if I wanted to). If there is not going to be any real choice involved in this (i.e., if all dependencies are not going to be broken), then just make it a single 3-rank enhancement costing (hopefully less than) 9 AP per rank.

Aura Improvements: Shatter the chain here. These dependencies do not exist on live.

Saves Boost/Defense Boost: Break this dependency. Paladins don't need saves boosts, and the few that would want the defensive boost surely don't want to be taxed for it.

Defensive Smiting: Given how limited smites are, this is way, way too weak for 2/4/6 AP. It would need to provide fast healing or PRR or dodge or something else for a short while that would mitigate more than 1/3 of a single hit. I also do not understand why this needed to have 3 ranks to begin with.

Reinforced Armor/Shield: these should have a different pricing/ranking scheme. 2 ranks that provide 25/50% to armor for 2/4 AP would be more reasonable. Reinforced Shield should provide 25/50% to armor for 1/2 AP (or 50/100% to armor for 2/4 AP), due to the fact that base shield AC is so much lower than base armor AC: aim for a more consistent AP to nominal AC gain ratio between these.

Sacred Shield Mastery: The AC bonus on this is a joke. 5% is not even +1 AC for most epic tower shields.

Divine Righteousness: If these temp HP were to scale with positive spellpower and healing amp, this might become useful.

Redemption: I have little use for these spells. This is not something I want to spend AP on to reach further Core Abilities (luckily, the abilities beyond this one are not worth taking either).

Glorious Stand: given that this consumes turn attempts, the cooldown can surely be reduced to something more reasonable.

This tree needs something else in tier 5 and a capstone that does not require me to die to get use from it. Currently nothing really sells going primary in this tree. Something to replace Unyielding Sovereignty which seems to be gone would help a bit.


Knight of the Chalice

Slayer of Evil: The way this is set up encourages respeccing between content, which is poor design. Please re-do this as a stance with a 10?-minute cooldown. Switching your focus back and forth between undead and outsiders will not be feasible inside a quest (in the few places where that would even be helpful), but switching between quests/packs will be less cheesy.

Attack Boost: Nobody wants this.

Damage Boost: Everybody without Legendary Dreadnought wants this. They don't want to waste 6 AP on Attack Boost to get it though. Please break the dependency. You could additionally just eliminate Attack Boost and put something else in its place.

Extra Turning: There could be more ranks of this. Hunter of the Dead on live gives a lot of additional turn undeads beyond what is available from live Extra Turning.

Divine Sacrifice: It would be cool if the light damage from this ability scaled with light spellpower. It would help open up different gearing possibilities for paladins vs other melees.

Divine Light: This would also need to scale with light spellpower, and with levels as well. It's useful at low levels, but 18d6 scaled by nothing quickly becomes trivial.

Passion: if this worked on any (evil) enemy, it might be worth taking. Limiting it to outsider/undead only makes it too narrow to be worth AP.

Censure Demons/Outsiders: Again, a very narrow (and unpredictable) use for AP spent.

Holy Retribution: Another narrow use, and this one is further limited by turn undead consumption, for a whopping 6 AP.

Given the amount of Evil Outsider and Undead specific abilities here, I am surprised there is no Cold Iron or Silver weapons buff in here, which can be found in other trees not thematically committed to destroying either.

Overall this tree has some nice things in it, but its focus is still somewhat too narrow. An ability to forswear a crusade against a non-evil group of enemies (functioning similar to a temporary favored enemy, whereby smites and any other anti-evil-only bonuses work against the group regardless of their actual alignment, and anti-outsider/undead abilities could work against any evil enemy thusly afflicted) would be nice. Bringing in an element of the Silver Flame could fit this purpose, as they are fully committed to purging any obstacle in their way: doing evil in the name of the greater good is perfectly reasonable to them.

Scrag
05-24-2013, 01:48 PM
Well, I like I can just pick a bunch of random skills to shove into things. This new s ystem sounds like it totally guts my actual abilitiy to do just that. I really like my flexibility, and this really tweaks me. I am not sure I would have bought into the game had I realized it was so much hamstrung compared to what it is now....

AylinIsAwesome
05-28-2013, 03:49 AM
My thoughts on Knight of the Chalice:

Core Abilities:

Slayer of Evil: It would be ok if it was BOTH Undead and Evil Outsiders. As it is right now, it is fairly weak.

Courage of Heaven/Slayer of Evil 2/Improved Courage of Heaven: These are ok with me.

Slayer of Evil 3: Reduce the extra die to 3d6, keep everything else the same.

Champion of Good: Increase the damage against evil from 1d6 to 3d6, and keep everything else the same.

That gives 5d6 against Evil, with an extra 5d6 against EOs and Undead. Currently it is 3d6 against Evil, and an extra 6d6 against EOs OR Undead (with the other only being an extra 2d6).

Tier 1:

Divine Light: Useful in low levels, but absolutely worthless at medium to high levels. If that is the intention, then ok, but otherwise some SERIOUS buffing. MUCH More dice if you intend for players to take this ability past level 10.

Extra Turning/Extra Remove Disease: Ok

Attack Boost: Could be worse I guess. Please don't make it a pre-req for Damage Boost though.

Exalted Smite: Good. It doesn't say anything about reducing the cooldown though, is this intended? Please say no.

Tier 2:

Improved Turning: No comment

Rally: Way overpriced as essentially a single-target Remove Fear spell. Instead, have it be a SLA of Remove Fear that is always centered on yourself that also gives +2/4/6 to attack and +0/0/10 temp hitpoints to all friendlies around you and it might be useful.

Exalted Smite: Good.

Damage Boost: Remove Attack Boost as a pre-req. Otherwise good.

Tier 3:

Improved Restoration: Nifty. I can see it being useful in some situations. Overall I like it.

Divine Sacrifice: Fairly good, though I think the light dice could stand to be scaled up a bit. Maybe 5d6/9d6/13d6?

Vigor of Life/Exalted Smite: Awesome

Stat Boost: Ok

Tier 4:

Censure Demons: Horrible. A 3-second stun on a Vorpal is very unpredictable, and it only works in a tiny amount of content. Very poor for a tier 4 ability. Instead, change the name to Censure Outsiders and have it work on any outsider that is Evil or Chaotic. Additionally, have it proc on 19-20.

Passion: Pretty bad. Keep it at 3 ranks, but have them scale like this "Divine Sacrifice gains the following: On Damage, gain 2/4/6 SP if used against an Evil target and an additional 2/4/6 SP if used against an Evil Outsider or Undead".

Vigor of Life/Exalted Smite: Still Awesome.

Tier 5:

Censure Outsider: Change it to Censure Evil (it will now work on any target of evil alignment).

Sealed Life: I like this.

Holy Retribution: Replace it with the following: "Melee attack that deals +1W/2W/3W damage. On critical, force Evil Outsider or Undead target with under 1K HP to make a Will save of 10/15/20 + Paladin Level + CHA Mod or die. Targets that save or have more than 1K HP take 100 Light Damage. Cooldown 6s." Note that it does not Channel Divinity.

Aolas
06-09-2013, 04:23 PM
Just want to talk about Divine Might.

If you dual wield then a +8 damage bonus for the offhand is the equivalent of +32 Strength (a +16 strength bonus halved). With the new Divine Might unless a TWF Paladin has Charisma 42 then it represents a big reduction and also creates another undesirable effect of removing the Paladin's much vaunted versatility as everyone rushes for a twohander.

Then you have to think about stacking with Charisma attuned weapons. You are doubling the Charisma bonus and if the weapon is two handed multiplying by 1.5 twice looks really abusable. Considering the impact on saving throws and Lay on Hands healing you really don't want to invite Paladins with 60+ Charisma running round the place with a two handed weapon that works off CHA rather than STR.

A Paladin is a divine warrior that channels holy forces rather than winning by brute force. Divine damage and Light damage combined with Faith is the core concept of the class. Paladin is the new Barbarian now with Divine Might adding STR, I really disapprove of the class losing part of it's divine aspect. It also smacks rather heavily of catering to people who only value Paladin as a splash class - since there is no benefit of developing the enhancement line aside from a tiny increase in duration.

Whoever balanced the current enhancements did a great job, Divine Might gives a really nice return of damage for a modest amount of Charisma. The only thing that needed to be improved was the duration, which should have been worked off class level in the same way as spells.

If the intention is to improve Paladins rather than ruin them you could maybe come to a compromise and allow Divine Might IV to uncap if the Charisma bonus is higher than +8. That might be workable and would preserve theme but I would still be cautious over balance issues.

Try to end on a positive note. I had an idea for Divine Sacrifice - very simple really - to make it a Mode rather than an activated ability so you could just toggle it on/off. I also want to say how much I like the rest of the other proposed class enhancements, the Pale Master ones in particular have really got me excited (bit of a sluyt for PM atm)

AylinIsAwesome
06-25-2013, 04:08 AM
Looking at Sacred Defender, it looks fairly weak to me.

The last three Core enhancements don't look very appealing (I can't really see using any of them very often, if ever).

As for the actual tree itself, many of the later enhancements look extremely weak.

Resistance Aura: While nice for the rest of the party, it doesn't do much of the Paladin with all of the saves boosts Paladins get.
Instinctive Defense: It's nice, but why is it in tier 4? Seems much weaker than the identical Stalwart Defender 1 that is in tier 2.
Spellshield Aura: The link to Resistance Aura weakens it a bit.
Defensive Smiting: WORST tier 5 enhancement I believe I've seen. Gaining some temp hp when using an ability (where all of the other bonuses to it are in the other tree) is terrible. At most, this should be tier 1 or 2, though I would prefer it if it were removed and replaced with something actually good.

Also, only 2 tier 5 enhancements? No +W attacks or anything at all?

Redemption: raising spells aren't something that most Paladins will care about. I know I won't be casting it when I'm taking unless everyone else is dead (though we've probably wiped by then anyway) and during other times a scroll can be used. It would be much better if this gave healing amplification (say 5%) or something.
Glorious Stand: Extremely long cooldown for a short-term buff that uses up valuable Turn Undead attempts. The benefits need to be increased (add in a lot of PRR) and increase the duration to 60 seconds. Also it needs some static benefit, say another passive 5% healing amp or +10 PRR all the time.
Eternal Defender: The +2 CHA is nice, the extended unconscious range is ok, but the active toggle is pretty terrible. Using up 2 Turn Undeads for a 250 HP heal where it only works if you go to negative HP but don't die is a high cost with a narrow window of use. Not quite sure how this could be fixed, but to be honest I'd much prefer something that increased melee damage to this.


EDIT:
If this tree is the one that comes out in the update, I know I'll either try to get the better KotC capstone somehow or just splash 2 Fighter and invest heavily in Kensei on my "Defender of Siberys" Paladin since there really isn't anything past tier 4 I would even want in the the defender tree.

Ironclans_evil_twin
06-26-2013, 12:39 AM
So anyone else notice that Sword and Board is being nerfed in this pass? I guess it's just too uber? DOS has bonus PRR for equipping a shield (this is in addition to the PRR you get for being in stance). The new version not only requires wearing a shield to get the stance, but eliminates the bonus for merely using a shield.

In other words when they decided to make shield use mandatory they figured they could eliminate the incentive bonus...

BTW shield use requirement for Defender stance, means that all those Pali's using a THF weapon as a "DPS mode" no longer can be in stance with their DPS option.

Net effect is the weakest playstyle in the game is massively nerfed for no explicable reason... They lose PRR and when they put the shield away and try to contribute more than being a cockroach who's the last one to die in a wipe, they do less DPS than before, and have less HP's while they do it.

No point in rolling such a character, they are already no fun to play on Live, take away the THF DPS mode and a chunk of PRR and they are even less fun, less fun than no fun LOL.

HastyPudding
06-26-2013, 11:35 AM
So anyone else notice that Sword and Board is being nerfed in this pass? I guess it's just too uber? DOS has bonus PRR for equipping a shield (this is in addition to the PRR you get for being in stance). The new version not only requires wearing a shield to get the stance, but eliminates the bonus for merely using a shield.

In other words when they decided to make shield use mandatory they figured they could eliminate the incentive bonus...

BTW shield use requirement for Defender stance, means that all those Pali's using a THF weapon as a "DPS mode" no longer can be in stance with their DPS option.

Net effect is the weakest playstyle in the game is massively nerfed for no explicable reason... They lose PRR and when they put the shield away and try to contribute more than being a cockroach who's the last one to die in a wipe, they do less DPS than before, and have less HP's while they do it.

No point in rolling such a character, they are already no fun to play on Live, take away the THF DPS mode and a chunk of PRR and they are even less fun, less fun than no fun LOL.


This is what boggles me. Tank paladins have amazing survivability and plenty of self-sufficiency. But their damage is just a couple steps above spellsinger and healbot clerics. Sure, this is common in any game with a sword & board type class, since you trade damage for high defenses (and vice versa). But what they've done with DoS is just nerfing it into the ground; sometimes you have to get out of your turtle shell and go on the offensive.

Personally, I think they should make tanking more useful in this game. It has situational uses, like in Fall of Truth, and many instances where it is beneficial to the party, like tanking red names in epic quests, allowing the rest of the party to attack freely (also making the healer's job easier).

I'm just saying, if they make it so DoS MUST be in constant shield-mode, give them some amazing defensive abilities and aggro management, or give them some phenomenal clickies/abilities to ensure the build is not completely left in the dust. Taking away the incentive to turtle up is just downright ridiculous.

easterwhale
06-26-2013, 08:08 PM
BTW shield use requirement for Defender stance, means that all those Pali's using a THF weapon as a "DPS mode" no longer can be in stance with their DPS option.


Dos stance dosen't require a shield IIRC.

easterwhale
06-28-2013, 09:59 AM
Nothing in Pally enha is changed/fixed
Sad.

SteeleTrueheart
06-28-2013, 11:50 AM
Nothing in Pally enha is changed/fixed
Sad.

Even the reported bug: exalted smite not giving bonus smites, is still there. Only real change for palis is the reduced tier 5 cost (30 spent in tree) which allows you to spread your points around more. Since I have only tested a monkadin I was unable to say if I could spend all my AP with a pure as I seemed to get everything I wanted while still having a lot of points for my monk enhancements

blackdae
06-28-2013, 01:05 PM
No point in rolling such a character, they are already no fun to play on Live, take away the THF DPS mode and a chunk of PRR and they are even less fun, less fun than no fun LOL.

You got the point.. I spent a lot of time building my DoS.. I quit playing her after I capped my EDs, 'cause since MotU tanking became kinda useless..
Now this.. The mixed KotC and HoD simply sucks.. They took away from DoS any hope for a little DPS..

I'll TR her in some kind of TWF and, since the very nice idea of busting EDs' exp, once done I'll prob never use her again, since I've had the great idea to max them all..

Sad panda..

EllisDee37
06-28-2013, 04:56 PM
The KotC tree has no devotion. This makes the pally trees a complete fail.

Texlaw1992
06-29-2013, 05:39 PM
First, the new launcher is still annoying. Many like me who are always red=boxed when we log in the first time are used to quitting, causing the launcher to reset and then logging in normally. At least under Windows 8, quitting closes the launcher such that you get game error 205 and can no longer log in. I figured out that if you set the launcher option to stay open, you can click on it after logging out the first time and everything works normally after that. Still, please fix it before it goes live.

Two likely bugs in the pally tree. First, as noted by others, while exalted smites are now doing exalted smite damage, they are still not awarding additional smites. Second, the loss of 15 PRR suggests that the first tier of superior defensive stance still does not work properly.

I still like the new enhancements. I can take all I want from the DoS and KotC trees and still have some left over. I built my pally as both melee (1300+ hp) and backup cleric (nearly 1000 sp plus true res, mass heal, etc) and virtually all those abilities are improved with the new system.

Krelar
06-29-2013, 05:45 PM
Now that I was able to copy my live character over and see the actual changes I'm even less impressed than the first time when I was just doing theoretical comparisons based on descriptions.

No matter what I am losing 15 PRR when going S&B.

Defender stance grants 10 + 15 with enhancements for 25 total.

On live Tier 3 grants 20 + 20 with a shield or 40 total.

I either have to give up around 30 AC and a couple points in saves to do slightly less damage than I do now or I have to give up a lot of damage to keep roughly the same AC/saves as now.

Divine might not stacking with the Strength bonus from defender stance is a huge blow to my damage potential.

So overall a net loss in both survivability and damage. :(

oradafu
06-29-2013, 08:11 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the things I'm about to list.

First, while the Devs mentioned that the AP cost has dropped in all the trees, the Paladin tree appears to be completely untouched in the reduction of AP cost.

Divine Might not stacking with the Defender stance is a bust for actual Paladins, while the Divine Might enhancement continues to reward splash Paladins. So Divine Might in the new enhancements is better for splashed paladins while the pure Paladin continues to lose out on what on Live is a major bonus for pure Paladins.

The Defender stance appears to continue to be very unfriendly to THF paladins, especially but not exclusive to Fury THF KOTC builds. Not only does it appear very unfriendly, it's like 80% of the Defender tree so a THF KOTC has little reason to invest in the tree besides the Lay On Hands ability.

Additionally, it appears that KOTC continue to be pigeonholed into the Undead or Evil Outsider DPS with no crossover. There shouldn't be a limitation to just one or the other since the DPS for other mobs isn't great for Paladins unless they enter the Fury ED. What is even more sad is that it appears that pure Clerics that choose the Divine Disciple get all the Core abilities for that Prestige!? Shouldn't KOTC get the same benefits, especially since being a Pure KOTC Paladin instead of 2 level Rogue or Monk splash offers much more to the class then the capstone?

Texlaw1992
06-30-2013, 02:23 PM
I did not notice this when I first posted, but quitting apparently takes you out of defensive stance each time you log on. You currently stay in defensive stance when logging in and out. Please keep it that way.

Also, the icon used for defensive stance looks too much like the icon for divine might. I suggest you keep the current star-like icon to indicate defensive stance.

EllisDee37
06-30-2013, 02:27 PM
First, while the Devs mentioned that the AP cost has dropped in all the trees, the Paladin tree appears to be completely untouched in the reduction of AP cost.No costs in any trees for any class were altered.

Ralmeth
06-30-2013, 05:05 PM
I've taken a look at the new Paladin enhancements, and here is my general take primarily from the point of view of a Paladin tank. I'd like to preface my response as someone who has played Paladin tanks for a long time, and has leveled up and optimized various builds over the years.

First, a Paladin tank needs a mix of both offensive and defensive abilities. There are times when you want to go all DPS, all defense, or sometimes a mix of the two. A good Paladin tank recognizes the situation and adapts accordingly. Unfortunately the defender tree is so defensive focused that I feel it could be a trap to someone not aware of this. I built out the enhancements on my Paladin and figured out that the best way to build him was to split my APs evenly between the Knight and Defender trees (41 in Knight and 39 in Defender). I actually think I came up with a good blend of the two, however even though there's a nice graphical interface, the problem is that you still have to navigate the landmine of enhancements that really aren't that great or are too expensive, compared to others you would be much better off with. Some more specific thoughts...

Problem - The Paladin capstone requires 40APs in the Knight tree
Any pure Paladin will want this enhancement. However the only way a Defender can get the capstone is to have more points in the Knight tree than they do Defender. Either that or give up on the capstone, which to me is like the developers pushing Defenders to multi-class as there is no longer a reason to go to 20 levels of Paladin (and a lot of people that play Paladins WANT to play a pure Paladin). That doesn't make any sense to me.
Suggestion: It would be better if the capstone requirement was to have 30 APS in the Knight tree so that a Defender could put more than half of their points into the Defender tree.

Problem - +6 strength enhancement vs Divine Might
I understand the desire to clean up what bonuses stack with each other. Now that the +6 strength enhancement doesn't stack with Divine Might...it is no longer worth taking the +6 strength enhancement. For the same APs, you can get more strength by taking Divine Might, which is only a tier 2 enhancement. Without maxing out my charisma, my Paladin had a +11 charisma modifier on Lamania. With Divine Might on, this is a +11 to strength, so why waste APs on the +6 Defender strength enhancement?
Suggestion: Increase the strength bonus of the enhancement in the defender tree so that a Defender will want to take the strength bonus in their own tree instead of Divine Might in the Knight tree. Perhaps make the bonus equal to your charisma modifier so it is of equal strength to divine might (it is a higher tier enhancement). While you're at it, boost the Con enhancement the same way.

Krelar
06-30-2013, 05:57 PM
Problem - The Paladin capstone requires 40APs in the Knight tree
Any pure Paladin will want this enhancement. However the only way a Defender can get the capstone is to have more points in the Knight tree than they do Defender. Either that or give up on the capstone, which to me is like the developers pushing Defenders to multi-class as there is no longer a reason to go to 20 levels of Paladin (and a lot of people that play Paladins WANT to play a pure Paladin). That doesn't make any sense to me.
Suggestion: It would be better if the capstone requirement was to have 30 APS in the Knight tree so that a Defender could put more than half of their points into the Defender tree.


The main problem with that idea is that 30 APs would allow you to get multiple capstones. Of course they could lock you into one capstone just like the do with tier 5 now. Otherwise I like it. They really just need to scrap the defender capstone and come up with a new idea. If they really want something defense rather than damage orientated maybe a significant permanent passive boost to PRR/resists/elemental absorption. (No more short term clicky abilities please)



Problem - +6 strength enhancement vs Divine Might
I understand the desire to clean up what bonuses stack with each other. Now that the +6 strength enhancement doesn't stack with Divine Might...it is no longer worth taking the +6 strength enhancement. For the same APs, you can get more strength by taking Divine Might, which is only a tier 2 enhancement. Without maxing out my charisma, my Paladin had a +11 charisma modifier on Lamania. With Divine Might on, this is a +11 to strength, so why waste APs on the +6 Defender strength enhancement?
Suggestion: Increase the strength bonus of the enhancement in the defender tree so that a Defender will want to take the strength bonus in their own tree instead of Divine Might in the Knight tree. Perhaps make the bonus equal to your charisma modifier so it is of equal strength to divine might (it is a higher tier enhancement). While you're at it, boost the Con enhancement the same way.

There definitely needs to be some sort of change and I very much like this idea.

dopey69
06-30-2013, 06:18 PM
No costs in any trees for any class were altered.

on how to get it in the store

Ralmeth
06-30-2013, 06:20 PM
The main problem with that idea is that 30 APs would allow you to get multiple capstones. Of course they could lock you into one capstone just like the do with tier 5 now. Otherwise I like it. They really just need to scrap the defender capstone and come up with a new idea.

Perhaps a better idea would be to use the same capstone for Defender as Knight and what is on live.

whiteline
07-01-2013, 08:36 AM
Paladin Enhancements are available on Lamannia this weekend.

Please share your thoughts on the Paladin Enhancement Trees!

We would also appreciate it if you would fill out the General Class Enhancement Survey (https://d12.parature.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?type=web&deptID=24037&surveyID=162) and the Paladin Survey (https://d12.parature.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?type=web&deptID=24037&surveyID=171)!

would like to know if the Paladin will get back raise the dead enhancement on the next build that's the only thing I found that was missing in the pack

Krelar
07-01-2013, 09:16 AM
would like to know if the Paladin will get back raise the dead enhancement on the next build that's the only thing I found that was missing in the pack

It's part of the core abilities (number 4 I believe) in the defender tree. It now adds the spell (along with resurrection and true resurrection) to your spell list.

Of course they've made it so paladin can use scrolls for all those things even without UMD so I don't see much point to it anymore.

SteeleTrueheart
07-01-2013, 09:29 AM
would like to know if the Paladin will get back raise the dead enhancement on the next build that's the only thing I found that was missing in the pack

It now comes buffed in the core section of the defender tree.

Redemption: The following spells are added to the Paladin spell list:

Level 2: Raise Dead
Level 3: Resurrection
Level 4: True Resurrection

Takllin
07-01-2013, 11:21 AM
For a class that already has a bad, and somewhat undeserved reputation of having little to no DPS you sure made it a lot worse. Your screwing anyone who has a current DoS and wants to keep one in the enhancement pass. KotC is better than what is currently live, except we shouldn't have to choose between undead or EO. Combine them, there is very little EO and undead at endgame currently so whichever way you go has little benefit.

Please change stance back to how it works on live. There is no reason for these changes, they only turn an underpowered class into a joke. I have always loved playing paladins but this will kill them for me. It's bad enough that EE has made many builds and some classes no longer viable, the last thing we need is for you to narrow that scope down even more.

Enoach
07-01-2013, 01:12 PM
Sacred Defender is to defensive and not enough DPS or even burst DPS

Divine Might and Sacred Stance Strength not stacking is just wrong

Sacred Defender Capstone is not desirable over Weapons of Good (Did you not listen when people complained about Divine Intervention when it first came out). Paladins are already hard to kill, we don' need an Enhancement version of the Die hard Feat.

currently the best option for me is 39/41 SC/KotC and I'm still not happy with it as I lose saves, ac and prr just to maintain some DPS.

Ironclans_evil_twin
07-01-2013, 02:21 PM
Sacred Defender is to defensive and not enough DPS or even burst DPS

Divine Might and Sacred Stance Strength not stacking is just wrong

Sacred Defender Capstone is not desirable over Weapons of Good (Did you not listen when people complained about Divine Intervention when it first came out). Paladins are already hard to kill, we don' need an Enhancement version of the Die hard Feat.

currently the best option for me is 39/41 SC/KotC and I'm still not happy with it as I lose saves, ac and prr just to maintain some DPS.

IMO this pass just makes it so that Pali's are only usefull for a 2 level splash and nothing else.

I'm not sure why they are nerfing sword and board so hard... it's already among the weakest playstyles in the game... I'm guessing they saw that the large majority of Pali's were taking DOS, and wrongfully concluded that it's over powered... instead of concluding that it's just better of three poor options on a class that is feat starved, AP starved, has anemic DPS even when you go all out DPS.

IMO The best Pali build in the game is a 6 FvS and mid teens Fighter, or Bladeforged with recontruct SLA and only 2 levels of Pali.

Oh well I'm over my Pali, 4 complete LR re-do's and a TR and I parked it at 23 and stripped of account bound stuff months ago.

Hajutze
07-01-2013, 02:32 PM
Well technically Paladins are still decent if you need more HP ... +20% hp is a nice boost (well you have to give up 30ish AP for it but still xD at least you get +6 res some AC and some PRR along with it)

Teh_Troll
07-01-2013, 02:47 PM
Well technically Paladins are still decent if you need more HP ... +20% hp is a nice boost (well you have to give up 30ish AP for it but still xD at least you get +6 res some AC and some PRR along with it)

You're really grasping at straws.

DOS and Stalwart are garbage.

Hajutze
07-01-2013, 02:53 PM
Well they seem bad compared to defensive strikes, but don't you have to be centered for the later ? (So either kensei or quarterstaff)

Ralmeth
07-01-2013, 03:38 PM
Here are my more detailed suggestions on how to improve the Sacred Defender tree. As I stated previously, a Defender needs some DPS to be useful in 95% of the content of DDO where you just need DPS.

Core Abilities:
1) Problem: Eternal Defender is really lame. If you manage a fight appropriately, a Paladin tank with their PRR and AC can manage the reduction in hit points and hit themselves with Glorious Stand and shortly after that Lay on Hands to get out of trouble. I can't remember any time where being able to go to -50HP would have been helpful. As a long-time Paladin Defender, I will never waste APs on this ability, but want Weapons of Good instead.
1) Suggestion: Replaced Eternal Defender with Weapons of Good.

2) Problem #2: Divine Righteousness is meh at best. I'll never, ever use it. I've play tested with it quite a bit on live, and even while tanking red names don't ever find I need it.
2) Suggestion: Replace with anything else.

Tier 1:
3) Problem: Who is going to bother with Item Defense?
3) Suggestion: Replace Item Defense with Exhalted Smite, so you're not forced to take it from the Knight line if you don't want to.

4) Problem: Saves aura seems interesting, but what will it be used for? So a Paladin can run through a trap? That doesn't seem very Paladin like.
4) Suggestion: Due to my later suggestions, put the stat point enhancement here.

Tier 2:
5) Problem: Defense Boost is just too short to bother with, not when you can use Glorious Stand instead.
5) Suggestion: Replace Defense Boost with Exhalted Smite for more DPS.

Tier 3:
6) Problem: The strength bonus in Greater Sacred Defense not stacking with Divine Might makes it worthless.
6) Suggestion: Make the strength bonus you receive based on your charisma modifier. Tier 1 could be 1/3 of your charisma modifier, tier 2 could be 2/3 of your modifier and tier 3 your full charisma modifier.

7) Problem: The stat bonus is okay, but not that great.
7) Suggestion: Instead, I'd rather see another tier of Exalted Smite.

Tier 4:
8) Problem: Spell Resistance is near useless. I have play tested with it quite a bit, and never find it that helpful.
8) Suggestion: Replace Spell Resistance with Exalted Smite.

9) Problem: Instinctive Defense just doesn't do enough to bother putting APs into.
9) Suggestion: Add the Divine Sacrifice line for more DPS. Also, Divine Sacrifice needs more DPS for tiers II and III, so these should be increased to do something more noticeable in higher level quests.

Tier 5:
10) Problem: Defensive Smiting doesn't seem that great for a tier 5 ability. I'd rather put points into other abilities. Extra temporary hit points are generally not going to be that helpful. A good Paladin tank can manage their incoming damage and heal themselves as needed.
10) Suggestion: I like the idea of a better smite at tier 5, but it should be DPS focused instead. Not exactly sure what.

Well, that's it. Hope this helps:)

whiteline
07-02-2013, 06:27 PM
It's part of the core abilities (number 4 I believe) in the defender tree. It now adds the spell (along with resurrection and true resurrection) to your spell list.

Of course they've made it so paladin can use scrolls for all those things even without UMD so I don't see much point to it anymore.

Thanks I must have missed it but I did find it today that give you the spell to cast

Carpone
07-03-2013, 06:30 PM
Well technically Paladins are still decent if you need more HP ... +20% hp is a nice boost (well you have to give up 30ish AP for it but still xD at least you get +6 res some AC and some PRR along with it)
The opportunity cost of +20% HP is too high compared to other U19 options.

sandypaws
07-07-2013, 05:13 PM
The opportunity cost of +20% HP is too high compared to other U19 options.

Such as?

If the argument is fighters--yes, paladins are weaker offensively than fighters, but having high saves (and potentially the same stat driving damage) could be interesting. They also have access to more reasonable healing amp. Am I missing something?

I must be, because I'm also seeing people saying things like divine might and the stance str aren't stacking, when the wiki seems to say that the stance is competence and divine might is sacred o.O.

Krelar
07-07-2013, 08:43 PM
I must be, because I'm also seeing people saying things like divine might and the stance str aren't stacking, when the wiki seems to say that the stance is competence and divine might is sacred o.O.

That's what the descriptions say but they are both currently typed as sacred. We have never gotten any acknowledgment if this is a bug or WAI. My guess is this is WAI (mostly because the strength bonus on live right now is sacred,unless they change there minds) and that someone just copy/pasted the description from stalwart.

sandypaws
07-08-2013, 07:15 AM
That's what the descriptions say but they are both currently typed as sacred. We have never gotten any acknowledgment if this is a bug or WAI. My guess is this is WAI (mostly because the strength bonus on live right now is sacred,unless they change there minds) and that someone just copy/pasted the description from stalwart.

12/6/2 paladin in stalwart stance with DM and HoTD perks, here we come.

Enoach
07-08-2013, 10:07 AM
Such as?

....

I must be, because I'm also seeing people saying things like divine might and the stance str aren't stacking, when the wiki seems to say that the stance is competence and divine might is sacred o.O.

I also was skeptical when I read it on the forum and looked at them in the enhancements. They appear to read like they will stack.

However, when you put them to action they did not.

My Paladin had a 44 Strength with stance - Activating Divine Might with a +8 Charisma Modifier you would Expect to see a 52 (44 +8) Strength, instead it was 46. Based on that It would be better to not take the Strength Stance Enhancements and just take DM with endless Turning.

Ironclans_evil_twin
07-09-2013, 08:42 PM
I also was skeptical when I read it on the forum and looked at them in the enhancements. They appear to read like they will stack.

However, when you put them to action they did not.

My Paladin had a 44 Strength with stance - Activating Divine Might with a +8 Charisma Modifier you would Expect to see a 52 (44 +8) Strength, instead it was 46. Based on that It would be better to not take the Strength Stance Enhancements and just take DM with endless Turning.

Guys, fellow long suffering Paladin players: please do the math on Divine Might putting points into Charisma, I think you'll be unhappy with what you find.

There are hardly any scenarios I can see where you're getting more than +3 damage or +4 damage if Drow. where you wouldn't be better off putting those build points in STR. Or where you aren't paying a severe price.

Take a simple example, first life Human Just say we Max STR and MAX con. STR using build points is obviously MUCH cheaper than Strength through Divine might is. This leaves no points for CHA so starting at 8 CHA we add a +4 Tome a +8 item +2 exceptional = 22 Charisma That is +6 to your strength or +3 to hit and damage. Previously 20 CHA was enough for Divine Might IV which was 8 damage, so we've gotten back less than half.

Now you want more CHA, so you drop what? CON down to 16... gives you 6 build points, which takes you from 8 up to 14 CHA, that is a +2 modifier equaling 1 point of to hit and damage that just cost you 6 build points. So you just paid 6 build points to go from +3 to +4.

If you want to bring CHA up more, well we can't use STR that would be dumb as even at 3 for 1 point buy STR is far cheaper to raise directly than indirectly through Divine Might, so we need to take more points out of CON. But wait CHA is a 2 for 1 point buy past 14 (unless Drow), to get two more CHA (or +1 STR or +0.5 more to hit and damage) we need 4 build points, dropping CON to 14 does that.

Now you've paid 10 build points to make Divine Might +1.5 better than if we leave it as a dump stat...

On a 2X TR you can use the +4 build points for the above (and keep your CON at a marginal 14), OR do the above AND add the TR points to CHA to get you to 17 CHA you need to round up to 18 by dropping CON down to 12.

At 18 CHA you have +4 CHA modifier for +2 to hit and damage at a cost of SIXTEEN BUILD POINTS

EDIT: D&D is hard made the same mistakes in two different threads (STR and STR mod mix ups)

EllisDee37
07-09-2013, 11:36 PM
Even if it were a minor nerf it would be worth it for the faster casting and longer duration. My actual pally on live isn't nerfed at all by this, happily, because he's a THF:

15 base +3 tome = DM3 = +0 to hit +6 damage

15 base +3 tome +2 ship +6 item = 26 cha = 8 cha mod = +8 str = +4 to hit +6 damage.

So he gets the same damage boost but a brand new +4 to hit. Works for me. It also means +4 tactical DCs if you have a tactics-oriented pally. (Or a desire to make one now that pallies get str bonuses.)

The crushing nerf to my pally is the removal of devotion except for the garbage sacred defender tree. My pally isn't a tank; why should he have to throw points away on the tank tree for devotion?

Ironclans_evil_twin
07-10-2013, 03:36 PM
Even if it were a minor nerf it would be worth it for the faster casting and longer duration. My actual pally on live isn't nerfed at all by this, happily, because he's a THF:

15 base +3 tome = DM3 = +0 to hit +6 damage

15 base +3 tome +2 ship +6 item = 26 cha = 8 cha mod = +8 str = +4 to hit +6 damage.

So he gets the same damage boost but a brand new +4 to hit. Works for me. It also means +4 tactical DCs if you have a tactics-oriented pally. (Or a desire to make one now that pallies get str bonuses.)

The crushing nerf to my pally is the removal of devotion except for the garbage sacred defender tree. My pally isn't a tank; why should he have to throw points away on the tank tree for devotion?

What did you lose for 15 base over dump stating it? 34 hit points? for 0.25 to hit and damage? 15 CHA is half a modifier, or half a STR point or 0.25 to hit and damage gained. (3 con = 34 hp)

Posted the below breakdown in the nerf thread, I don't see a way to trade build points for CHA past 14 (exc. Drow 16) that wouldn't be more costly in hit points and real STR than the gain from DM is worth and thus better spent on other things. And this break down assumes you need no skill points with dump stat INT DEX and WIS if you need more than 1 skill point per level it gets much worse:



It's hard to explain just how bad a value this can be if you give up even a couple points to get over 14 CHA, let me try again:

Droping CON from 18 to 16 to make CHA go from 8 to 14 takes away 23 hit points and gives +1 to hit and damage this is probably worth it if you ignore how this leaves everything else dumped (INT DEX and WIS are all 8 if you don't do this the relative build point value gets even worse).

Droping STR from 18 to 16 to make CHA go from 8 to 14, takes away +1 to hit and damage to gain temporary +1 to hit and damage, this is clearly a poor trade.

To get even ONE MORE +1 to hit and damage from CHA mod (before gearing and tomes) in addition to the +1 we've gained from taking dump stat CHA from 8 up to 14 , we need 18 CHA:

That requires dropping 18 STR to 16 AND Con from 16 to 14 now you've Dumped every other stat, and traded +1 to hit and damage AND 46 hit points, to gain +2 to hit and damage.

You have 8 Dex, 8 INT and 8 Wis. If you drop CON down to 13 to gain 2 build points you're in gimp territory. If you drop STR down from 16 to 15 for the same 2 build points you've Given up +1.5 to hit and damage and 46 hit points to gain 1 skill point +2 to hit and damage with a limited duration, a cool down and X number of uses.

If you want another 2 points (say into INT for 12 INT for skill points to use for Heal spell power skill) you've traded +2 to hit and damage 46 hit points for +2... We've barely moved into realistic build territory and it's already a bad trade off.

Getting a natural +2 to hit and damage out of Divine Might from character build choices requires: maxing CHA at 18 this gives a return of +2 to hit and damage at a build point cost of 16 build points

+2 to hit and damage at a build point cost of 16 build points

The only case that Divine might is a good value is a dumped CHA (starting with 8) and then gearing and +4 tome for 22 = +3 to hit and damage. Or +4 on a Drow. 1 for 1 point buy (14 CHA or 16 on a Drow) is a trade off that requires having 3 dump stats and no skill points.

Anything else is a bad deal. So it's a new player trap. and a fairly nerfed ability. Remember there's no reason that Divine Might on live couldn't have a fast animation... The two are not connected to each other at all. There's also no reason they couldn't double the duration.

The right thing to do is make Divine Might straight CHA mod to damage, so an 18 CHA would be +4 damage, with the new duration and casting speed. Gear and Tome this up for a nice 8 or 9 damage boost. Pali's need boosts not nerfs.

EllisDee37
07-10-2013, 03:51 PM
What did you lose for 15 base over dump stating it? 34 hit points? for 0.25 to hit and damage? 15 CHA is half a modifier, or half a STR point or 0.25 to hit and damage gained.I'm not sure I understand your question. Dump-stating cha would mean no divine might at all, so that would cost me 6 damage per swing. My strength is already base 18 with all 6 levelups, so there is no more strength to be had. (On a first-life 28pt build it's 16 base str instead of 18.)

Dex and wis are indeed dump stats, but I go with base 10 int on a human for 3 skill points per level, 4 from level 7 on when the +2 tome kicks in. Though I'll need to find a way to up that to 12 when the enhancement pass hits so I can max heal. *sigh*


Posted the below breakdown in the nerf thread, I don't see a way to trade build points for CHA past 14 (exc. Drow 16) that wouldn't be more costly in hit points and real STR than the gain from DM is worth and thus better spent on other things.Meh. I showed you my breakdown. I suppose I could up my cha tome from +3 to +4, lower my base cha from 15 to 14, and kick my con up from 14 to 15, but 1 point of con isn't going to do anything for me.

In all likelihood what I'll probably do is up the cha tome to +4, drop base cha from 15 to 14, and use those 2 points to kick my base int up to 12 for heal. (EDIT: Actually nvm, he's a second life so I'll probably keep his stats the same and just tr him into a 3rd life, getting a "free" extra 2 points for int.)

I've never been overly impressed with the ROI of spending 4 build points to get con from 14 to 16.

Miasmark
07-13-2013, 01:11 PM
With the new purple dragon knights, you can forgo the divine might etc altogether, and only get strength for feats and carrying stuff.

It seems like my pally builds seem to be getting drawn into "how to make charisma do more".

Charisma to damage:
Divine might
Now also Cormyean knight training

Charisma to hitpoints:
Lay on hands/Extra lay on hands
Now also Eternal Defender

Charisma to saves:
Divine vitality
Force of Personality

+1 charisma modifier seems to do so much now on a pally.

patang01
07-15-2013, 07:24 AM
I can understand why people who play paladin tanks are upset considering the old capstone is placed in the other tree and a new is created for defender.

It's similar to what's happening to the fighter and Arti (and I would assume any class that had only 1 capstone).

Personally I abhor this change. It makes it very hard to add some additional dps and features to tank builds who are suffering dps wise as it is and in many ways are still as irrelevant high tier due to the scale of damage even against tanks with superb AC and PRR.

I don't play a paladin tank so at least the dps paladin build I got now will benefit from some of the changes, but they're minor and this enhancement pass highlights something important - we might not have had the full scales of all PREs before but the new enhancement system greatly restricts builds moreso then they did before.

Forcing people more into restricted class builds then before with less freedom to mix it up. Like my fighter tank that I've added some DPS too in order to go from tank to dps on the fly. Now in order to be as 'tanky' as before I will have to lose out on a radical amount of dps in the process. Making it quite restricted and with the loss of flexibility.

bloodnose13
07-15-2013, 07:48 AM
i dont want to offend anyone, but i have to say that....... paladin enchancments SCREAM lazy, they ooze lazy.

90% of enchancements available to paladins in those new trees are same things that are accessible atm on live servers, JUST with the fact of being spread out to separate trees and enchancements (its most visible how lazy it is after looking at other classes enchancement trees), i play paladin tanks mostly and it hurts me to be treated by other players like like nessesary evil only for raids that require a tank, and thats currently on live, paladins dont do much damage and tank paladins struggle to have any dps at all, this new enchancement system takes away even that, the so called sacred defender is just a wall that has to fall on enemy to hurt him!!!!

-----------

the stance given by all tiers of defender of syberys on live costs 4+2+2 ap for all tiers, and gives considerable defence to paladin,
stance from new system "sacred defence" costs 1 point to unlock BUT it costs 27!!!!!! action points to gain same things given by old stance, its crazy!!! seriously it looks like someone didint had idea what to do with that prestige, sure there are some advantages to new system, some gain in ac but its not ENOUGH to justify this way of distributing it.

another thing that is plainly wrong is the fact of placeing ONLY class heal amplification only in the knight of chalice tree and so HIGH in it so its impossible to "twist" it into defender, what was ridicolously easy in "OLD" current live system in here is impossible without gimping tank in process, so there is a small gain in ac (that does not give much at high values anyway since few point gain compared to what is on live means very little in defence %) loseing 30% heal class heal amp HURTS a lot, lot more than few points of ac.

another problem is takeing away smites, divine sacrifice, i can understand divine might, but COME ON SMITES????? realy? its one of BIGGEST SYMBOLS OF paladin, and to say it bluntly THE feat smite is EXTREMELY WEAK!!!! due to how game progresses the values of hitpoints on enemies. smite that returns 1 per 2 min, and does small damage to enemies is a joke, it needs a boost for any paladin offensive or defensive.

overall when TRYING to recreate my paladin from live on new enchancement system i ran out of points after getting everything needed to have defence abilities at at least similar lvl to what is on live, and then i realized that i have NO dps enchancements that i have on live, i have 20% less heal amp, and i CANT do anything about it in any way without sacrificing a LOT from defender tree, so i can either build a wall, or a gimpy tank taht will have gimpy dps, or i can just abandon being tank, grab twohanded sword and go fully knight of challice, or tr and change class, and thats just BAD.

enough rant for now, some ideas-----------------

first of all those 6, 3 tiered enchancements for upgradeing the sacred defence stance, MERGE them, make them into 3 enchancements with 2 points cost, first could upgrade the prr and ac, and give small % of extra hp, second give constitution and again bit % hp, 3rd str and % of hp, all in all would be the same just bit cheaper and easier to manage to customize the character

instead of second 3 enchancements for the stance there could be 3 HEAL AMP enchancements, each giveing 10% heal amp and 5/good dr, after getting all 3 character would have 15/good dr, it would help with survivability too but also would make those enchancements feel realy usefull,

now smites, the idea of defencing smiting gave me idea, what if knigt of challic e would get offensive smites, that do things (no idea atm, didint give knight much thought) that help them in gaining more offensive against targets, while defender would get defensive smites, again 3 enchancements with 3 tiers each, for both prestiges they give same values of to crit multiplier and range but diffrent extra effects, for example first tier could give healing curse similar to what light monks get under their light attack, it would be diffrent though, would give for example 1d6 healing at tier 1 with 3d6 at tier 3, and 5 temporary hp per tier, lasts 6 or 12 seconds, second enchancement could give again upgrade to smite crit values and additional smite but also have 50% chance to make target vulnerable to physical damage for 6 seconds, with values based on tier, working only when target it attacking the paladin, works for whole party, 3rd enchancement could add some extra light damage to smite, with a vorpal attack that calls in a lightning effect similar to the one from cloudbreaker, that vorpal effect would deal 5d20 light, sonic and electric damage, same effect could be on the smites for knight of chalice for top tier of it, since vorpal smites are very rare it would be very nice rewarding to see it, also that 3rd last enchancement would give 1d3 smite charges back on any smite, with rolling 1 being none.

one more idea for smites, but maybe it would be better for destiny, smites becomeing cleave when paladin has cleave feat

last thing, PLEASE bring back the weapons of good to defender tree too, either that OR make holy weapon spell to work like artificer weapon buffing spells, and work on any weapon held by paladin, self use only.


Please turbine dont destroy my favorite class and gameplay style.... bring more fun into that class and im sure players will reward you with major happyness.

gflash
07-15-2013, 08:04 AM
the stance given by all tiers of defender of syberys on live costs 4+2+2 ap for all tiers, and gives considerable defence to paladin(...)

In fact, even in the old system Defender of Syberis had a lot of prerequisite enhancements, as well as level requirements. It's not true that the stance costs only 8 AP.

Scrag
07-15-2013, 08:30 AM
In fact, even in the old system Defender of Syberis had a lot of prerequisite enhancements, as well as level requirements. It's not true that the stance costs only 8 AP.

I have a bunch of commentary, but on regards to this, _yes_. It had pre-reqs, but those were damn useful pre-reqs, and I could actively use them. Things like extra lay, extra turn, that hp/sp attack thingy that was great, upgrades to smite, so on so forth.


However.... (cut and paste-ish from thread in iconics w/ added commentary)

I don't know about any of the other iconics, or even races, but bladeforged racial enhs are USEFUL.... But....

So. Lets assume you play a bladeforged, splitting your points between just sacred defender and your racial points, because you are trying to snb it. Yes, bladeforged have some pluses if you thf it, but you really want to snb it because hey, its a paladin sort of thing.

The racial points are what make bladeforged what they are... At 15, if you spend 15ish points in your racial pool, you simply do not have enough points to splash kotc with sacred defender. What does that mean? You are effectively gimped. Trying to get use out of my racial means I lost things like extra lay, extra turn, that 5 hp 1 sp damage attack thing, so on so forth. In fact, generally speaking, I am so much more inefficient that it just isn't funny.

The one advantage is that I can spam (for a limited time) reconstruct, which keeps me up a very large amount of time, which sort of offsets the loss of hps, but certainly does not make up for the bits I lost that I can only get from kotc.....

SoSoh
07-15-2013, 11:08 AM
Divine might contributing charisma mod to strength is a welcome change, but Divine Might and Sacred Stance Strength are not stacking. Divine might claims it is sacred while the stance claims it is competence, but that must not be true behind the scenes.

I also think the divine might cast speed has been reduced which I appreciate. I hope the duration of DM is not shortened.

Making the bonus hit points of the defensive stance depend on wearing a shield is not necessary. Two handed fighting paladins still won't be great dps.

Texlaw1992
07-15-2013, 11:27 AM
Before the latest update, I put about 60 points into Defender and got 60 extra hps. Now I only get an additional 30 hps.

Also, I'm not sure if the new Defender capstone is working. Soloing HE on the first quest, I went into the chest room with four traps without paying attention, managed to roll a 1 and got killed with all 4 exploding. It does not appear that I was ressed (at least I didn't see anything indicating the capstone kicked in, and it was on).

It's possible that if the capstone has no separate animation, it might have triggered and then the traps instantly killed me, but thought I'd mention it regardless.

Also, does anyone know if the 75 sp in Empower Heal stacks with the sp you get from the Defender tree? It seemed like it, but I'm not sure.

SoSoh
07-15-2013, 11:48 AM
Paladin heal amp is too expensive (tier 5?), and we don't get any in the tanking tree?

I'd prefer to see the 5% increase based on core abilities similar to the Shintao monk. Maybe amp belongs in both trees, but I'd give preference to the defender tree.

bloodnose13
07-15-2013, 12:19 PM
Also, I'm not sure if the new Defender capstone is working. Soloing HE on the first quest, I went into the chest room with four traps without paying attention, managed to roll a 1 and got killed with all 4 exploding. It does not appear that I was ressed (at least I didn't see anything indicating the capstone kicked in, and it was on).


that capstone if i remember right does not rez you, it heals you when you go below 0 hp but are still in the bleed out area, not dead, but idk if it works, havent actualy tried to got it work.

oradafu
07-15-2013, 12:44 PM
Paladin heal amp is too expensive (tier 5?), and we don't get any in the tanking tree?

I'd prefer to see the 5% increase based on core abilities similar to the Shintao monk. Maybe amp belongs in both trees, but I'd give preference to the defender tree.

Vigor of Life, which is 10% Heal Amp, might be a Tier 5 ability, but it's also a Tier 3 and 4 ability also.

Texlaw1992
07-16-2013, 08:01 PM
I did some more (unintentional) testing of the Defender capstone when I got stuck in two horrible lagfights on HE.

The lag often took me below zero, but I never died - finally a cure for lagdeath!

Yes, the heal will not kick in if a trap or attack takes you below =40 or so.

eachna_gislin
07-20-2013, 12:57 AM
Paladin heal amp is too expensive (tier 5?), and we don't get any in the tanking tree?

I'd prefer to see the 5% increase based on core abilities similar to the Shintao monk. Maybe amp belongs in both trees, but I'd give preference to the defender tree.

Healing amp belongs in the same tree as Hunter of the Dead (which has morphed into Knight of the Chalice). That's the prestige that boosted healing amp What's painful is that healing amp used to be one of the free grants of the prestige and now costs 6ap.

oradafu
07-20-2013, 01:13 AM
Healing amp belongs in the same tree as Hunter of the Dead (which has morphed into Knight of the Chalice). That's the prestige that boosted healing amp What's painful is that healing amp used to be one of the free grants of the prestige and now costs 6ap.

Every prestige class now has some free feature having to cost more. For example, Censure Demon, in a different form, was a free ability for KOTC, along with extra Smites. And some older prestige classes have it worse than others when it comes to the free abilities on live; for example, Acrobats only get Kip Up free in the new enhancements.

On a different topic about Paladins, since the new items now have +x% bonus to melee and ranged attack speed, can paladins get their old Zeal back in some form? Wasn't it nerfed because it was causing lag? If the same effect is now being added to items for all classes, it must not be a lag problem anymore. So can we get it back in the Core Abilities or something?

jskinner937
07-20-2013, 05:47 PM
I actually found the paladin trees very affordable. I had plenty of points available to put into both trees, but the positive spell power is still lacking. Overall I think the enhancements are well done here.

ArcaneArcher52689
07-20-2013, 11:14 PM
Healing amp belongs in the same tree as Hunter of the Dead (which has morphed into Knight of the Chalice). That's the prestige that boosted healing amp What's painful is that healing amp used to be one of the free grants of the prestige and now costs 6ap.

The full 30% used to cost 27AP, plenty of which was spent on useless enhancements, was only available to Lvl 18 pure paladins. Now, the full 30% is available at level 12(5 of which must be pally), for 32AP, and you can spend those ap's on exalted smite line, divine might, stat boosts, divine sacrifice, and plenty of other useful enhancements.

psymun
07-21-2013, 04:01 PM
It seems to me as though there have been no improvements to paladins. Everything is either a downgrade or a wash.

I seem to recall a quote from one of the Devs specifically stating that there would be balancing, but there wouldn't be any nerfs, only augments. This was obviously a flat-out lie.

I guess I really just need to know if all of these losses are permanent? If so, Turbine is bound to lose WAY more players than it stands to gain.

My guild alone has been reduced from 35 active members to being lucky if there are more than 2-3 people online over the last 3 months. I honestly don't get where turbine is going with all of this, but it's unlikely that I will continue playing. I have already paid for the expansion pack, so I will take a look once it goes live, but there needs to be some major changes between now and then for me to stay.

oradafu
07-21-2013, 04:59 PM
It seems to me as though there have been no improvements to paladins. Everything is either a downgrade or a wash.

I seem to recall a quote from one of the Devs specifically stating that there would be balancing, but there wouldn't be any nerfs, only augments. This was obviously a flat-out lie.

I guess I really just need to know if all of these losses are permanent?

From a pure Paladin view, I have to agree with you that it's somewhere between and wash or a downgrade. Although pure paladins can now get a little bit of something from all three prestige classes on live, there seems to be components missing (extra smites from the KOTC tree, for example) among other things lack.

With that said, from a splash of paladin PoV, the new trees are a godsend since most of the paladins most powerful stuff is easy to snatch at low levels and no longer contain level gating or high Cha stat requirements. I'm sure most of the positive feedback that the Devs have received (and from what I understand it's primarily what they are responding to) comes from multi-class paladins and not pure paladins. Almost all comments about helping pure paladins from players who don't play pure paladins is that only taking a few levels is all that's needed and there's no reason to give pure paladins more.

And I'm still waiting for the Capstones for all classes to be worth forfeiting a few levels of something else... But it seems the Devs have abandon the concept that "Capstones should be as powerful or more powerful than Evasion".

Scrag
07-22-2013, 09:52 AM
I actually found the paladin trees very affordable. I had plenty of points available to put into both trees, but the positive spell power is still lacking. Overall I think the enhancements are well done here.

Both trees? You are obviously ignoring your race tree. Lord forbid you have to put 15 points into your race tree because there are some significant things (bladeforged pure, purple dragon splash into almost entirely paladin build).

Dylvish
07-23-2013, 09:43 AM
With that said, from a splash of paladin PoV, the new trees are a godsend since most of the paladins most powerful stuff is easy to snatch at low levels and no longer contain level gating or high Cha stat requirements. I'm sure most of the positive feedback that the Devs have received (and from what I understand it's primarily what they are responding to) comes from multi-class paladins and not pure paladins. Almost all comments about helping pure paladins from players who don't play pure paladins is that only taking a few levels is all that's needed and there's no reason to give pure paladins more.

And I'm still waiting for the Capstones for all classes to be worth forfeiting a few levels of something else... But it seems the Devs have abandon the concept that "Capstones should be as powerful or more powerful than Evasion".

Ive noticed this as well.

Scrag
07-23-2013, 10:25 AM
Almost all comments about helping pure paladins from players who don't play pure paladins is that only taking a few levels is all that's needed and there's no reason to give pure paladins more....

Unless you are playing a bladeforged? Or heaven forbid, actually want to go to 20 with a paladin?

If you are multiclassing, there are tons of people that just go to 2. Maybe even 5. But then those people are not paladins... They get shrifted on max spell level. So unless you plan to pick up spell casting from other classes, you must take a rather large number of paladin levels (or even go pure) to maximize your spell casting ability.

Again, moreover with trying to do paladin trees with racial trees, like mixing in either purple dragon or bladeforged trees, both of which have particularly good powers at higher costs. Reconstruct (3) is a very good ability, but it is far from cheap, given that every point you spend is one less you can spend on your multiclass or multi tree pure paladin.

Your assumption is that people commenting arent playing pure paladins. Every char I have made that is a paladin is either pure, or almost pure, with attempts to mix in racials where useful (some racials trees are a waste of points....).

oradafu
07-23-2013, 03:59 PM
Your assumption is that people commenting arent playing pure paladins. Every char I have made that is a paladin is either pure, or almost pure, with attempts to mix in racials where useful (some racials trees are a waste of points....).

What I was commenting on was that the Devs are listening to people who seem satisfied with the new paladin enhancements, which are mostly people who just splash paladin. It's been posted "elsewhere" that the Devs have received almost universally positive feedback from all the class enhancements so they will not be change much more than what has already been changed, except for Clerics (who will be getting a new melee DPS tree) and Sorcs (who will be getting a new tree in two updates).

Meanwhile, there's been alot of negative feedback from people who build pure paladin, with nothing being addressed.

RealKorike
07-24-2013, 11:23 AM
As noted earlier in this thread, the Capstones are underwhelming. They need to be radically improved. There NEEDS to be a reason to go 20 levels of Paladin (or other class, as most have underwhelming Capstones). It needs to be something that defines the particular enhancement set. So for KotC, it could be something that GREATLY increases DPS against Undead AND Demons AND Devils. Like massive bane damage or 3[W] or more. But it needs to be something that makes folks seriously consider going Pure.

Scrag
07-24-2013, 12:39 PM
What I was commenting on was that the Devs are listening to people who seem satisfied with the new paladin enhancements, which are mostly people who just splash paladin. It's been posted "elsewhere" that the Devs have received almost universally positive feedback from all the class enhancements so they will not be change much more than what has already been changed, except for Clerics (who will be getting a new melee DPS tree) and Sorcs (who will be getting a new tree in two updates).

Meanwhile, there's been alot of negative feedback from people who build pure paladin, with nothing being addressed.

All, your clarification makes total sense. Thanks!

oradafu
07-24-2013, 04:53 PM
As noted earlier in this thread, the Capstones are underwhelming. They need to be radically improved. There NEEDS to be a reason to go 20 levels of Paladin (or other class, as most have underwhelming Capstones). It needs to be something that defines the particular enhancement set. So for KotC, it could be something that GREATLY increases DPS against Undead AND Demons AND Devils. Like massive bane damage or 3[W] or more. But it needs to be something that makes folks seriously consider going Pure.

KOTC seems like the easier of the two Capstones to improve. First, I still believe that the Core Abilities for KOTC allow KOTC to focus on both Undead and Evil Outsider early on. If not at level 1, then at either level 6 or 12. At the very least, it should be available in the capstone, since Cleric's Divine Disciple grants all the Core Abilities at its capstone (which are spells that not only do alot of DPS damage, but affect more mobs than paladins two specialties). Additionally, extra Smites need to be added back to KOTC Core Abilities because KOTCs still have less smites than on Live even if the extra Smites work from the Exalted Smite Line. The KOTC capstone should also treat all weapons as if they have Disruption against the Undead and Banishing against Evil Outsiders.

I think that would fix the KOTC Core Abilities. The Enhancements would still need to be tinkered with, such as making Holy Retribution into something useful because it's too costly and does too little, besides not working.

For the Sacred Defender, I'll be honest and tell you I'm not sure that I have a good solution for it. It definitely needs the good weapons added to it (or as someone mentioned somewhere just make it a granted paladin feat at level 20). I'd probably add a Light and Good Guard for the Defender's capstone, but make it a Toggle button that works with all stances. I know more is needed, but I'm not sure exactly since I don't play a Defender Paladin.

RealKorike
07-25-2013, 11:09 AM
For the Defender Capstone, to make it worthwhile, it would need something nearly OP, like constant +100% Threat Generation or perhaps a large (+12 or greater) Sacred Bonus to AC when using a s&b.

psymun
07-25-2013, 08:38 PM
I guess I'm just very unhappy with the direction that turbine has taken the Paladin. Average DPS is now going to be sub-par DPS. Their "excuse" I guess is the hate generation, but hate generation is only half the battle.

Turbine must know that the number of players playing DDO is declining rapidly over the past few months.

It disappoints me that the Devs read these threads and can't even comment and say "Yes, this nerf is permanent, deal with it." or "We see your concerns and we will take it into consideration" SOMETHING.

I know I'm only one person, but I no I am not alone. Not that it affects any of you, but I want to add to the growing number of people that have announced:

Today, I have officially, and indefinitely ended my DDO subscription due to being lied to, (Telling us there would be no nerfs with the new enhancements), and a general decline of the quality of the game.

emtp
07-26-2013, 02:08 AM
Today, I have officially, and indefinitely ended my DDO subscription due to being lied to, (Telling us there would be no nerfs with the new enhancements), and a general decline of the quality of the game.

I feel you, I Am gain regretting prepurchesing the xpac and getting a ton of &hit still undone and they took more money to change things we didn't want. Turbine stop breaking thing faster then you fix them.

B0ltdrag0n
07-26-2013, 10:50 AM
For the Defender Capstone, to make it worthwhile, it would need something nearly OP, like constant +100% Threat Generation or perhaps a large (+12 or greater) Sacred Bonus to AC when using a s&b.

It could be +4 to all stats skills and saves and still not be worth it.

Scrag
07-26-2013, 11:17 AM
I dunno. The release notes for today are a sizeable improvement to what was there before, and brings it much more in line with what it used to be (or is, depending on perspective) on live. I can totally see ways to work this now with these modifications.

HatsuharuZ
07-26-2013, 11:25 AM
I dunno. The release notes for today are a sizeable improvement to what was there before, and brings it much more in line with what it used to be (or is, depending on perspective) on live. I can totally see ways to work this now with these modifications.

Agreed! It seems to be that what's on Lamm is much better, overall, than what is on Live. I can't quite remake my live build, but there are some improvements. Certainly, there is nothing on Lamm that makes me want to cry like a baby and quit playing like some people say they are....

Krelar
07-26-2013, 12:57 PM
I dunno. The release notes for today are a sizeable improvement to what was there before, and brings it much more in line with what it used to be (or is, depending on perspective) on live. I can totally see ways to work this now with these modifications.

There's actually a reason to consider taking a tier 5 enhancement in the tree now. Still no reason to take the +6 Strength since it doesn't stack with divine might. Also still no reason to take the "capstone". Means I have to take a lot more lower level junk to get the KoTC capstone if I want the extra PRR from defender tier 5.

If I go this route I lose a bit of AC, some lay on hands and about 4 damage per swing (from divine might changes). I gain a bit of PRR and some extra damage versus either undead or evil outsiders.

Steelstar
07-26-2013, 01:01 PM
There's actually a reason to consider taking a tier 5 enhancement in the tree now. Still no reason to take the +6 Strength since it doesn't stack with divine might.

They are intended to stack. It may not have made it in for this Lamannia patch, but:
- Strong Defense is a Sacred bonus (tooltip may say Competence at the moment, but it's not)
- Divine Might is being changed to an Insight bonus (but may still be Sacred on Lamannia currently).

HatsuharuZ
07-26-2013, 01:15 PM
The problem I have with paladins as a class is all of the clickie management. (Well, that and the fact that only one of the buffing spells scale with class/caster level, but that's another topic). I wish pallies had more constant/passive damage options that didn't need to be clicked every few seconds/minutes, depending on the ability.

Krelar
07-26-2013, 01:16 PM
They are intended to stack. It may not have made it in for this Lamannia patch, but:
- Strong Defense is a Sacred bonus (tooltip may say Competence at the moment, but it's not)
- Divine Might is being changed to an Insight bonus (but may still be Sacred on Lamannia currently).

That change makes me feel quite a bit better. But if you make divine might an insight bonus won't it stop stacking with +2/3 Insightful Strength items?

Also any plans to buff/change the capstone it really needs some damage or at least DR breaking added to make it interesting.

HatsuharuZ
07-26-2013, 01:29 PM
That change makes me feel quite a bit better. But if you make divine might an insight bonus won't it stop stacking with +2/3 Insightful Strength items?

Also any plans to buff/change the capstone it really needs some damage or at least DR breaking added to make it interesting.

Well, you can only get up to +3 insightful, and only then at level 20+, iirc. It's a lot better than not having it stack with the +6 from SD stance.

And now that I think about it, since Divine Might is a bonus to strength, that means it increases the DCs of tactical feats. *cackles madly at the thought of all of the melee multi-classing possibilities*

Krelar
07-26-2013, 01:41 PM
Well, you can only get up to +3 insightful, and only then at level 20+, iirc. It's a lot better than not having it stack with the +6 from SD stance.

And now that I think about it, since Divine Might is a bonus to strength, that means it increases the DCs of tactical feats. *cackles madly at the thought of all of the melee multi-classing possibilities*

I don't know if going from a loss of 6 to a loss of 3 is a lot better (It is a bit better though) we also don't know for sure yet that we won't get higher bonuses on future items.

Rathic
07-26-2013, 02:07 PM
My exaulted smites are now critting for half as much on Lammania(~400-450) as they do on live (~800-900) per hand... I didn't have time to figure out if it was a multiplier or base damage difference yet.

Also Holy retribution needs to increase the maximum health it can destroy (1000/2000/3000) as a top tier ability it needs to scale up to epic content. having a save attached to it and MAYBE being able to do 1000 damage when a 2 hander paladin exaulted smite crits for over 1000 makes it pretty lackluster for a 3 point ability

Krelar
07-26-2013, 05:08 PM
After looking at it again if I keep the KoTC capstone I don't have enough AP to take 2 tier 5's in defender to max. So I'll have to choose between the PRR or the last stance upgrade (str, con or HP depending on previous choices) :(

Here is my quick idea for a change to make the defender capstone possibly worth taking. Make Glorious stand permanent while in stance and make it the capstone. Have this other ability be the core ability before that and put it on something like a 10 minute timer with x uses per rest. (I'd still prefer the capstone helped with damage/DR but if you really want a defensive focused on here you go)

EDIT: Here's another idea based on having capstones that are at least as good as evasion. ;)

Shield Wall: While using a large or tower shield a successful fortitude save allows you duck behind to take half damage from spells.

Cashiry
07-27-2013, 11:35 AM
Is it just me or does it seem like Exalted Smites are hitting for half of what it does on the live servers and relatively the same damage as a regular Smite Evil. Any one else seeing this issue. I have used both the Smite Evil(Feat) and Exalted Smite(Enh) before anyone asks.

Cashiry
07-27-2013, 11:37 AM
My exaulted smites are now critting for half as much on Lammania(~400-450) as they do on live (~800-900) per hand... I didn't have time to figure out if it was a multiplier or base damage difference yet.


I have tested this as well.. It really seems like the +2 Damage Multiplier isn't taking effect from the Exalted Smite Enhancement.

bloodnose13
07-27-2013, 11:39 AM
changeing ap costs on stance upgrades is a step in right direction but i think that both paladin enchacnemetn trees are built with wrong idea in mind, after looking at other classes and their presitges they get some of old, but also lot of new, sometimes usefull and sometimes less usefull things, where player can choose what to take, while on paladin trees 80% of a tree is required to have class core abilities as on live, word defender does not mean someone who is a wall that is only hard to kill, but someone who defends others. so im my opinion there is a need for change in way of thinking, i think that there should be done lot of merging in defender tree, for example all of enchancements for stance merged from 6/3 tiered enchancements to 3+1 capstone path (not capstone for prestige but for stance) first of it should be in line 2 or 3, so its not a bottom line enchancement, as noone will have access to stance at low lvl anyway.
that would make space for new enchancements, for example heal amp similar to the one on kotc side but that gives also 3.6.10/- or 5,10,15/- dr for example, heal amp with a twist, dual meaning enchanceemnts.
defender could have own smite path, if divine righteousness would be converted into a smite, it could be called righteous smite, a smite that on use gives extra hate buff, but also could do some other usefull thngs to enemies, another thing that defender tree SHOULD give is a double strike boost with shield equipped and higher shield bash rate and daamge bonus, shield bash could have a dice roll attached on which enemy would be tripped, slowed or unbalanced, ANOTHER thing that could be done with defender stance since its already requires a shield equipped, ability to move at walk speed WHILE BLOCKING, and ability to make main weapon attacks WHILE BLOCKING, at reduced speed, and maybe just first 2,3 attack animations of the attack chain (would look weird to do that all around swipe while blocking heh). it would create situaltion where all those ON BLOCK effects would be actualy worth a lot more in any bigger fights and not only while tanking. last thing is the prestige capstone while the extended bleed out seems usefull at occasions, i think the 2 layon 250 heal on below 0 should be replaced with pnp oposite version of divine might, divine shield, it adds charisma modifier to ac in pnp, so maybe in ddo it could do either just that, OR add cha mod on top of prrs %dr value for temporary defence boost. in my opinion its better NOT to go below 0 than to rely on some effect to MAYBE save us when it happens. ALSO there could be new things in that tree like temporary aura bonuses, useing turns, all of them either boosting defence of those in aura OR offensive capabilities Or debuffing enemies who enter paladins aura, im pretty sure there is many ways this idea could be implemented to make defender paladin not only a tank but a valuable party booster, OR enemy debuffer.
still missing weapons of good, so maybe it could make big return in defender too at enchancements somewhere in top tiers with all held weapons are good and extra damage to evil enemies?

basic idea of this is to make both KOTC and defender to be similar, in sense of both being paladins who use same skills and powers, BUT each in unique to him way. current enchancements are still just same things as on live just spread all over the tree.

since many other class prestiges give now proficiencies, please give tower shield proficiency in defender tree.

btw, sacred stance is supposed to be based off shield, but removeing main hand disables all stance bonuses even when shield is still in hand, even swapping weapon removes whole hp bonus granted by stance, creating a need to heal 200+ hp every time weapon is swapped. im sure its a bug.............

Delacroix21
07-28-2013, 12:59 AM
They are intended to stack. It may not have made it in for this Lamannia patch, but:
- Strong Defense is a Sacred bonus (tooltip may say Competence at the moment, but it's not)
- Divine Might is being changed to an Insight bonus (but may still be Sacred on Lamannia currently).

Divine might should stay a Sacred bonus or be untyped. You guys are creating to many un stacking issues with changes like this.

Texlaw1992
07-28-2013, 01:27 AM
I liked the new enhancements before, and since the changes gave me nine more APs to spend, I like them even more now.

A few issues:

1. As noted above, exalted smite is not giving full damage. At least we're getting all of them now, but still wish they were "endless."

2. The enhancement that gives +1 AC and +1 armor max dex bonus per level - the AC is stacking properly, but the armor dex bonus stops at 1.

3. Extra LOH gives a total of 10 instead of 7 - hope it's WAI, and don't change it even if it's not (lol).

I know lots of people are knocking the SD capstone - I was one of them until I got caught in two huge lagfights running two of the Wheloon quests for favor on HE. No deaths!

oradafu
07-28-2013, 04:43 AM
Divine might should stay a Sacred bonus or be untyped. You guys are creating to many un stacking issues with changes like this.

Or at least turn Divine Might into an Untype damage for Pure Paladins so they get an extra benefit since its one of the low hanging fruits. The extra boost for paladins would help with the weak/moderate melee damage when attacking something other than evil mobs and the chosen evil outsider or undead mob.

The Devs need to throw pure paladins some sort of bone. This would be one way. And allow KOTC to take advantage of both Evil Outsiders and Undead damage would be another way. Especially since Clerics have the Divine Disciple that's capstone grants all the Core Abilities in that tree AND the Clerics will be getting a melee tree in Update 20 that will put them on par melee-wise with Paladins.

Texlaw1992
07-28-2013, 08:48 PM
The resist energy and deathward spells still have a 25 minute duration when I cast them. I think they should be 28 minutes, but not sure if WAI.

maddong
07-28-2013, 08:59 PM
Divine might should be sacred. It should be raised to tier 4 so pal 2 splashes don't get it.

The stance bonus should be competence (the same as stalwart).

I think giving full exalted smites could at least be moved to tier 4. People used to make 15 pal/5 x just for the exalted smite adrenalines. Now it only requires a 3 pal splash....

Krelar
07-29-2013, 01:10 AM
The resist energy and deathward spells still have a 25 minute duration when I cast them. I think they should be 28 minutes, but not sure if WAI.

Caster levels (and thus spell duration) don't increase based on level after level 20. You are probably in a destiny that is giving you +5 to your caster level which is why you get 25 minutes. Since we are not getting new destiny levels you won't see any increase in spell duration.

Cashiry
07-29-2013, 06:16 AM
They are intended to stack. It may not have made it in for this Lamannia patch, but:
- Strong Defense is a Sacred bonus (tooltip may say Competence at the moment, but it's not)
- Divine Might is being changed to an Insight bonus (but may still be Sacred on Lamannia currently).

Divine Might Should be the Sacred bonus, making it an insight bonus will not allow it to stack with insight items.
Sacred Defense should be a Competence Bonus just like the stance from Stalwart.

ArcaneArcher52689
07-29-2013, 09:33 AM
Divine Might Should be the Sacred bonus, making it an insight bonus will not allow it to stack with insight items.
Sacred Defense should be a Competence Bonus just like the stance from Stalwart.

This seems the most logical solution

Texlaw1992
07-29-2013, 01:01 PM
That's right, US destiny does add +5 to paladin spell casting ability. Thanks for the reminder.

bsquishwizzy
07-29-2013, 09:07 PM
I just re-worked my pally with the enhancements.

First, let me agree with anyone and everyone who saying you need to have a free Lesser Reincarnation when you first log in. The new enhancements almost demand it.

Secondly, if this tree was an attempt to make things better, it really didn't do it's job. I had a functioning idea with the DoS PrE. I now have zero idea what you have going on here. It looks like the ultimate HP / AC / PRR / Saves build. The reality is that, when I rework it with similar attributes, I lose about 30 PRR and about 200 HP.

How is this better, again? Because what I'm seeing in on the really sucky side of sucking.

It talks about a defensive stance, but I find nothing to activate a defensive stance in the enhancement list or the tree (I get two active enhancements, and they come from the racial abilities). if the defensive stance is on all the time, maybe you could change it so it doesn't suck all the time...maybe...?

Unless you get the stance when you hit capstone, which pretty much makes being a pally from lvl 1 to 19 nothing but laughable.

Someone throw me a bone here...

Texlaw1992
07-29-2013, 09:22 PM
It's the third "base" enhancement in the DoS tree. It has to be activated each time you log on, annoyingly. Drag it to a bar and activate it.

Make sure you reactivate your stance from the US tree as well after you reset your enhancements.

Check the level 5 enhancements from the DoS tree for big boosts to PRR.

Once you reactivate your stances, you'll probably find your missing HP.

Also, you need a shield to use the top three enhancements in the DoS tree (+6 S. +6 Con, +20% hp).

bsquishwizzy
07-29-2013, 10:11 PM
It's the third "base" enhancement in the DoS tree. It has to be activated each time you log on, annoyingly. Drag it to a bar and activate it.

Make sure you reactivate your stance from the US tree as well after you reset your enhancements.

Check the level 5 enhancements from the DoS tree for big boosts to PRR.

Once you reactivate your stances, you'll probably find your missing HP.

Also, you need a shield to use the top three enhancements in the DoS tree (+6 S. +6 Con, +20% hp).

Ok, I'll check again.

And I'm pure S&B so shield is not a problem.

bsquishwizzy
07-30-2013, 11:23 AM
Ok, so after some playing around and re-doing my enhancements, I was able to get a similar build to what I had before. I actually GAINED HP and PRR, and was able to keep one additional action point. I also got an additional 10% fortification.

I lost anywhere from 4 - 7 points on all of my saving throws. And I lost about 3 smites, and my offensive capabilities - which weren't all that impressive in the first place - are in the crapper. I can bring my saves up with an action boost which, to me, is a crappy compromise. And I lost 40+ SP, which I could maybe make up if I change my Human tree to get SP as opposed to having the defensive boost.

So I'm a tank that can sit there and get beat on pretty hard, but the hit I take on my saving throws will negate that (because there is ALWAYS a caster in the group of mobs).

The amount of HP I gain is equivalent to the damage taken by one hit from a trash mob on maybe hard difficulty at level. It Isn't much of a boost. The PRR bump is about 10 points, moving to maybe 20 (doing this from memory) when boosted. That still, however, does not compensate for the drop in saving throws. And as far as I can tell, there is no way via the tree to resolve these.

Plus I also lose the extra LoH-like ability I get from Soverign Host that is also a huge blow to the nether regions.

I also lose a pathway to Exalted Smite. It looks as if I want to invest the points into that, I have to give up healing amp in the racial tree. So I either go towards the 20% healing amp in racial, OR the better smites for offense in the Knight of the Chalice, but not both. I still have two levels left, and some 8 or 9 enhancement points left, but I'm not seeing a pathway to both.

Oh, and I didn't see the heart of lesser wood in my inventory. This is very cool.

The hit in saving throws is going to seriously suck. I can craft stuff to cover this, but I'm not sure I'll be able to cover the gap, and I was borderline where I wanted to be as is. Maybe I can re-spec my feats and take Luck of the Heroes (if I haven't already - again doing this from memory), but I don't see that compensating much.

Texlaw1992
07-30-2013, 03:45 PM
I gained across the board with the new enhancements, and had a pretty solid pally build before (insofar as one can have a solid pally build). Just goes to show how many different types of builds will still exist with the new enhancements.

You can get Divine Sovereignty back, but you'll have to LR to do so. What they've done is add two new slots for "religious" feats, so you can pick sovereign host at lvl 1 and divine sovereignty at lvl 6, without reducing the amount of feats currently available.

Cashiry
07-30-2013, 07:06 PM
Plus I also lose the extra LoH-like ability I get from Soverign Host that is also a huge blow to the nether regions.



This is actually a class feat now, do a lesser and you will get it for free.

Krelar
07-30-2013, 08:27 PM
I gained across the board with the new enhancements, and had a pretty solid pally build before (insofar as one can have a solid pally build). Just goes to show how many different types of builds will still exist with the new enhancements.

Which PRE are you on live? The impression I get is that Knight of the Chalice and Hunter of the Dead come out ok and maybe even ahead of where they are now, it's defender builds that lose out.

For me the latest pass is better than it has been but I still have to decide if I want to lose a medium amount of damage, except in nich situations, to keep my defenses about the same or if I want to lose a lot of damage to get a small/medium boost to my defenses. A new, decent, capstone for the defender tree could potentially fix this.

oradafu
07-30-2013, 09:58 PM
Which PRE are you on live? The impression I get is that Knight of the Chalice and Hunter of the Dead come out ok and maybe even ahead of where they are now, it's defender builds that lose out.

For me the latest pass is better than it has been but I still have to decide if I want to lose a medium amount of damage, except in nich situations, to keep my defenses about the same or if I want to lose a lot of damage to get a small/medium boost to my defenses. A new, decent, capstone for the defender tree could potentially fix this.

From what I can tell, former pure KOTC gained slightly more damage to evil while gaining access to the non-melee HOTD stuff and a chunk of the Defender stuff depending on how much they invest in that tree. A former pure HOTD gained everything up from KOTC except the Evil Outsider damage while also getting a chunk of the Defender stuff depending on how they invest in that tree. A former pure Sacred Defender gained access to the some of the HOTD and KOTC if they invest in the tree, so they've gained a bit of the specialized Undead or Evil Outsider DPS, but they lose out on the Capstone.

Of the three, I think the HOTD has came out best with these trees and the Defender has ended up a bit worse. I really don't understand why the Devs won't just combine the KOTC and HOTD DPS, since combined they make up a fraction of the mobs that we fight throughout the game with alot of focus lately on humans and fey creatures so even less paladin friendly mobs. I also don't understand why Good aligned weapons isn't part of the Defender Capstone also.

Aolas
07-30-2013, 11:31 PM
Paladin Capstone: Charisma bonus is doubled. That might make being a pure Paladin worthwhile.

Divine Might: try adds a *Sacred* bonus to BA equal to Charisma modifier, add Divine damage based on enhancement level, Divine Might IV adds Divine damage based on Charisma modifier, requires Paladin(8) - Divine Grace at Paladin(2) is fine for splashing, enough Paladin abuse already.

Still waiting for developers to figure out that huge saving throws and huge BA/damage for just *two* levels of Paladin might make a mockery out of game balance... thinking of a charisma rogue with evasion, sneak attack and pots of basic melee damage through Divine Might buffed strength, sheesh it's not a very intelligent idea.

bloodnose13
08-01-2013, 05:42 AM
maybe divine might should take number of paladin levels when discerning HOW MUCH of charisma modifier is added to ...... (and here is a problem i cant get over, but ill finish one thing first), divine might could treat 20 paladin lvls and treat them as 100% of cha bonus, takeing only 2 levels of paladin would grant 10% of cha bonus, takeing 18 lvls of paladin 90%, if there is a problem in game that would make it hard for game to count just paladin levels in character, it can count the stacks of divine lore.

my problem with divine might is that old (current live) divine might after maxing out gives 8 points of damage, to get that much out of new system you would need to have +16 bonus on charisma and that means 42 charisma on paladin!!!! getting over 30 charisma on paladin is hard without min/max gimping other stats.

who will benefit the most of the new divine might? 2 paladin splashes that should not even exist in first place, with sorc or fvs who will have maxed out charisma and thanks to few paladin levels will be able to not only do lot of damage as a caster, but also melee, and have high saves, umd. allowing paladin splashes at all is bad idea to start with, as they give MOST of the class most powerful effects in first few levels, and that will always be a thorn in side of devs who try to balance the game, balancing always ends with raising everything across the board, but thats other story.

what i think that something like i posted at start should be added to divine might and it should return to being a bonus to damage and not to str as it is in pnp. and this would be one of best reasons to stay pure paladin instead of splashing

oradafu
08-01-2013, 08:30 AM
maybe divine might should take number of paladin levels when discerning HOW MUCH of charisma modifier is added to ...... (and here is a problem i cant get over, but ill finish one thing first), divine might could treat 20 paladin lvls and treat them as 100% of cha bonus, takeing only 2 levels of paladin would grant 10% of cha bonus, takeing 18 lvls of paladin 90%, if there is a problem in game that would make it hard for game to count just paladin levels in character, it can count the stacks of divine lore.

my problem with divine might is that old (current live) divine might after maxing out gives 8 points of damage, to get that much out of new system you would need to have +16 bonus on charisma and that means 42 charisma on paladin!!!! getting over 30 charisma on paladin is hard without min/max gimping other stats.

who will benefit the most of the new divine might? 2 paladin splashes that should not even exist in first place, with sorc or fvs who will have maxed out charisma and thanks to few paladin levels will be able to not only do lot of damage as a caster, but also melee, and have high saves, umd. allowing paladin splashes at all is bad idea to start with, as they give MOST of the class most powerful effects in first few levels, and that will always be a thorn in side of devs who try to balance the game, balancing always ends with raising everything across the board, but thats other story.

what i think that something like i posted at start should be added to divine might and it should return to being a bonus to damage and not to str as it is in pnp. and this would be one of best reasons to stay pure paladin instead of splashing

Also remember that the additional change to Divine Might:


They are intended to stack. It may not have made it in for this Lamannia patch, but:
- Strong Defense is a Sacred bonus (tooltip may say Competence at the moment, but it's not)
- Divine Might is being changed to an Insight bonus (but may still be Sacred on Lamannia currently).

So Paladins lose the Insight STR bonus on items. So that's all the Exceptional STR bonuses in the game, except for +1. So for the Paladins that built for Divine Might IV are losing even more than what you mention.

So I agree that pure Paladins need something added to their Capstones that boost Divine Might. I'm not sure if doubling the CHA bonus for Divine Might will be the right thing. That's because the Devs don't seem to want to boost Paladin DPS more than what's already on the table. (At least that's the only explanation for not giving the KOTC access to both Undead and Evil Outsider instead they are stuck with either Undead or Evil Outsider.

I think a fair solution would be for Divine Might to become an Untyped damage in both Paladin capstones. Yes, it will still gimp the damage of most people who had built for Divine Might IV on the live servers. But it will help the further gimping of pure Paladins since they can still gain STR bonus from the Insight bonus on items. I think it would still allow splashed paladins access to one of the best Paladin abilities, but it would give a reason to stay pure, instead of just taking 2 or 4 levels.

EllisDee37
08-01-2013, 08:47 AM
From what I can tell, former pure KOTC gained slightly more damage to evil while gaining access to the non-melee HOTD stuff and a chunk of the Defender stuff depending on how much they invest in that tree. A former pure HOTD gained everything up from KOTC except the Evil Outsider damage while also getting a chunk of the Defender stuff depending on how they invest in that tree.Well, both KotC and HotD lose a ton of devotion, no? My HotD pally on live gets 80 devotion, costing him 10 AP.


my problem with divine might is that old (current live) divine might after maxing out gives 8 points of damage, to get that much out of new system you would need to have +16 bonus on charisma and that means 42 charisma on paladin!!!! getting over 30 charisma on paladin is hard without min/max gimping other stats.THF pallies have a much easier time since they get 1.5 str bonus to damage. DMIV is rough to qualify for; if you settled for DMIII, you only need 26 charisma to break even. (8 cha mod = 4 str mod * 1.5 = 6 damage)

It's nerfed for TWF, but I think it's better to scale damage roughly equal between TWF and THF than to strongly favor one over the other. Changing the straight damage bonus to a strength bonus is an elegant way to achieve this, as well as giving a welcome bonus to tactical feats like stunning blow.


So Paladins lose the Insight STR bonus on items. So that's all the Exceptional STR bonuses in the game, except for +1. So for the Paladins that built for Divine Might IV are losing even more than what you mention.I'm skeptical they won't stack; can we get a confirmation screenshot?

In every other case I can think of, enhancements and items with the same bonus type stack. For example, on live the "resistance of good" line gives up to +3 resistance bonus to saves and stacks with resistance items, which also give resistance bonus to saves. Same deal for fighters taking the strength enhancements (an enhancement bonus) that stack with strength items (also an enhancement bonus), etc...

If there are no other insight bonus enhancements, then divine might will stack with everything. Or at least, it should if enhancements and items/spells still stack with each other. And a whole mess of things will be utterly broken if they don't. (All stat enhancements would be the big one. Wizard int? Cleric wis? Barb str? No, I have to believe they stack with items of the same bonus type.)

oradafu
08-01-2013, 09:54 AM
Well, both KotC and HotD lose a ton of devotion, no? My HotD pally on live gets 80 devotion, costing him 10 AP.

THF pallies have a much easier time since they get 1.5 str bonus to damage. DMIV is rough to qualify for; if you settled for DMIII, you only need 26 charisma to break even. (8 cha mod = 4 str mod * 1.5 = 6 damage)

It's nerfed for TWF, but I think it's better to scale damage roughly equal between TWF and THF than to strongly favor one over the other. Changing the straight damage bonus to a strength bonus is an elegant way to achieve this, as well as giving a welcome bonus to tactical feats like stunning blow.



Divine Might might be rough to qualify for, but it can be gotten to with a +3 or +4 CHA tome. But I really don't care for the advice that keeps reoccurring about ignoring what is lost for players who had Divine Might IV because Divine Might III is so much easier to get. It's like telling someone who wants to get 80 Devotion on their HOTD that they can quite easily achieve 30 Devotion in the new setup.



I'm skeptical they won't stack; can we get a confirmation screenshot?

In every other case I can think of, enhancements and items with the same bonus type stack. For example, on live the "resistance of good" line gives up to +3 resistance bonus to saves and stacks with resistance items, which also give resistance bonus to saves. Same deal for fighters taking the strength enhancements (an enhancement bonus) that stack with strength items (also an enhancement bonus), etc...

If there are no other insight bonus enhancements, then divine might will stack with everything. Or at least, it should if enhancements and items/spells still stack with each other. And a whole mess of things will be utterly broken if they don't. (All stat enhancements would be the big one. Wizard int? Cleric wis? Barb str? No, I have to believe they stack with items of the same bonus type.)

I haven't been on Lamannia to verify yet because I've been a bit busy. But Kensai's Power Surge is a Psionic bonus and it doesn't stack with the Psionic bonus found on the Gloves of Titan's Grip. And the Devs purposely changed it that way over a year ago, so it is WAI. So, yes there are Enhancements that don't stack with items of the same name.

Hamlin
08-01-2013, 10:33 AM
They are intended to stack. It may not have made it in for this Lamannia patch, but:
- Strong Defense is a Sacred bonus (tooltip may say Competence at the moment, but it's not)
- Divine Might is being changed to an Insight bonus (but may still be Sacred on Lamannia currently).

Steelstar, can you clarify what stacks with Divine Might now? Someone else brought up a good point, there are lots of insight bonuses in the game now and I'm a little concerned that DM will stack less with gear/enhancements/spells/etc.

Krelar
08-01-2013, 10:40 AM
In every other case I can think of, enhancements and items with the same bonus type stack. For example, on live the "resistance of good" line gives up to +3 resistance bonus to saves and stacks with resistance items, which also give resistance bonus to saves. Same deal for fighters taking the strength enhancements (an enhancement bonus) that stack with strength items (also an enhancement bonus), etc...

The resistance from good line gives +3 to saves, despite the name it does not list a type at all. Same with the stat boosts for various classes they just say +1 to the stat, no type bonus is listed.

bloodnose13
08-02-2013, 05:43 AM
Also remember that the additional change to Divine Might:



So Paladins lose the Insight STR bonus on items. So that's all the Exceptional STR bonuses in the game, except for +1. So for the Paladins that built for Divine Might IV are losing even more than what you mention.

So I agree that pure Paladins need something added to their Capstones that boost Divine Might. I'm not sure if doubling the CHA bonus for Divine Might will be the right thing. That's because the Devs don't seem to want to boost Paladin DPS more than what's already on the table. (At least that's the only explanation for not giving the KOTC access to both Undead and Evil Outsider instead they are stuck with either Undead or Evil Outsider.

I think a fair solution would be for Divine Might to become an Untyped damage in both Paladin capstones. Yes, it will still gimp the damage of most people who had built for Divine Might IV on the live servers. But it will help the further gimping of pure Paladins since they can still gain STR bonus from the Insight bonus on items. I think it would still allow splashed paladins access to one of the best Paladin abilities, but it would give a reason to stay pure, instead of just taking 2 or 4 levels.

ok.... thats the part that slipped my mind, thanks for pointing it out, yea so its even worse idea than before, soooo either way its going to be bad unless it will be bonus to damage and not to str

bsquishwizzy
08-02-2013, 04:35 PM
This is actually a class feat now, do a lesser and you will get it for free.

Yeah, I found that out. Thanks for the info.

dotHackSign
08-05-2013, 07:27 AM
Few of things that came to mind when building/testing a paladin with this tree.

1. There seems to be a lot of clickies, clickies to boost the paladin to a place he can start to compete as dps and clickies to do the striking. Add the destiny clickies in and it seems a lot to juggle.

2. While not part of the enhancements, 2nd level spells available, ***? less than useless.

3. The damage boost for the paladin seems to center on extra damage while ignoring your primary dmg number (aside from divine might which you must keep this plate spinning in the background) there is no static/inherent weapon damage enhancement. Fighters get extra feats to gain this along with weapon boosts for kensai.

4. Root problem for the paladin not addressed. When the class was created back in 1st edition days, the means to get your ability scores was to roll 3d6 for EVERY stat. Point builds did not exist. Paladins had more stat requirements which meant that less rolled characters where able to become paladins. The ones that did were the chars with more ability points. Now, if you apply a Point build method onto this character, then you have to spread things out and you get an ability point starved character every time. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole... doesn't work well. So you end up with only mediocre paladins. This is especially highlighted if you try to build a twf paladin to take better advantage of the extra damage categories given. Then when we want to start getting epic feats, it's even worse. We need an inherent 21 consitution for epic toughness and an inherent 23 strength for overwhelming critical. If this is not fixed, then paladins will always suffer.

bloodnose13
08-07-2013, 02:32 PM
i found a dynastic falcata and it gave me an thought about the divine might, if someone would want to build or already built a paladin with those weapons in mind, and built his char to use charisma as attack and damage, well that build gets broken by new divine might, whats the point of maxing out charisma for such build, where near dumping of str will have to occur, when divine might will boost useless stat for that build.

well thinking about it, actualy its pointless to boost charisma for divine might at any way, since even +4 cha tome will give +1 extra damage from divine might so kinda why bother.

Ralmeth
08-07-2013, 02:59 PM
I haven't had a chance to look at the latest update or this thing with Divine Might and what stacks with what, but my thinking that come the new enhancement pass is that a good Paladin Defender build will:
1) Split your APs between the Defender and Knight tree, so that you can get more DPS and healing amp. I think it will be a build mistake to go all in on the defender tree due to lack of DPS.
2) Most likely, split your main stats between Strength and Charisma. I like the idea of having a reason to raise your charisma score, but you'll probably want a good amount of strength as well. At the minimum, you'll probably want to qualify for Overwhelming Critical.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the update, as I'd be glad to trade some defense for more DPS and healing amp, by being able to spend more points in the Knight tree. Though at the end of the day, if a Paladin build just doesn't work well I can always go back to playing my sorc;)

oradafu
08-07-2013, 03:14 PM
i found a dynastic falcata and it gave me an thought about the divine might, if someone would want to build or already built a paladin with those weapons in mind, and built his char to use charisma as attack and damage, well that build gets broken by new divine might, whats the point of maxing out charisma for such build, where near dumping of str will have to occur, when divine might will boost useless stat for that build.

well thinking about it, actualy its pointless to boost charisma for divine might at any way, since even +4 cha tome will give +1 extra damage from divine might so kinda why bother.

That's pretty much what I'm seeing. CHA is still important to boost saves, but the Devs have stripped the damage from high CHA paladins.

Additionally, the Divine Might change kind of makes the obvious synergy of Purple Knight/Paladin a bit less appealing. Since the CHA to hit and damage from Purple Knights is strictly for Bards and Sorcs, since the only DPS boost that's not tied to certain mobs (Evil with a side of either Evil Outsider or Undead) is Divine Might and it now undercuts the CHA stat.

bloodnose13
08-07-2013, 03:29 PM
I haven't had a chance to look at the latest update or this thing with Divine Might and what stacks with what, but my thinking that come the new enhancement pass is that a good Paladin Defender build will:
1) Split your APs between the Defender and Knight tree, so that you can get more DPS and healing amp. I think it will be a build mistake to go all in on the defender tree due to lack of DPS.
2) Most likely, split your main stats between Strength and Charisma. I like the idea of having a reason to raise your charisma score, but you'll probably want a good amount of strength as well. At the minimum, you'll probably want to qualify for Overwhelming Critical.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the update, as I'd be glad to trade some defense for more DPS and healing amp, by being able to spend more points in the Knight tree. Though at the end of the day, if a Paladin build just doesn't work well I can always go back to playing my sorc;)

truth to be told about it is that, it will be way better from point of view of a knight than defender, knight will be able to take lot of dps stuff from own tree, and then put some points in defender just to get a bit of boost to survivability, while other way around, defender who by the main idea of the prestige is supposed to be tanky, after getting all of the enchancements to get back to the about same point as it is on live with ac, saves, prr, does not have enough points to get enough of knight tree to actualy feel the diffrence in dps, and with divine might giveing str instead of damage? seriosuly 4 points of charisma is 2 str and thats +1 damage!!! with 30 charisma you will get 5 extra points of damage.... 5!!! thats a barely noticeable value for serious investment of points in the tree to get it, also gimping a tank prestige build to get heal amp from OTHER prestige is a shot in the foot.... defender should get own defence themed heal amp, and there should be some merging of enchancements to make space for OWN defender smites, so getting stuff from knight tree would be OPTIONAL and not REQUIREMENT.


i havent seen all of the class prestige trees, but all those i seen, big chunk of the tree is optional, stuff that may be usefull to one useless for other, you take what you want, while defender tree is 90% must have, or ac, saves and prr get dropped by considerable amounts, even fighter defender gets more original enchancements than paladin defender.

last time i checked the costs on the enchancements for stance was lowered and its a good thing it gave some ap to use in the other tree but its still pretty hard to get enough of dps, especialy that you have to take things that you probably wont need to get to the higher tiers, there is that (cant recall the name of those 2 enchacnements in left top corner in defender) is boosting the ac from shield and armor, it still costs 2 ap per tier, maybe it could be made 2 points to unlock and 1 to upgrade?

ReturningKing
08-08-2013, 07:10 PM
Paladins have been the weakest class as far back as I can remember (been playing since May of '06). I am running a capped 18/2 paly/fighter DOS geared for S&B but run thf because of all the un-fixed issues with S&B. This new enhancement system does nothing to bring Palys up to par with the other classes. Spent the better part of two days fooling around with the new enhancements and ultimately I see losses in AC, PRR, and HP.

Going back to my Jugg for now. Will TR this toon into something useful. Goodbye Paladin

SilkofDrasnia
08-08-2013, 09:08 PM
Paladins have been the weakest class as far back as I can remember (been playing since May of '06). I am running a capped 18/2 paly/fighter DOS geared for S&B but run thf because of all the un-fixed issues with S&B. This new enhancement system does nothing to bring Palys up to par with the other classes. Spent the better part of two days fooling around with the new enhancements and ultimately I see losses in AC, PRR, and HP.

Going back to my Jugg for now. Will TR this toon into something useful. Goodbye Paladin

Sadly I TRed my pure pally too, seems like they want pally to just be for splashing a few levels. Will perhaps take a look again when all this goes live but....

BruceTheHoon
08-09-2013, 09:28 AM
New to beta, so a quick question: is the devotion enhancement line back yet and why isn't it?

Krelar
08-09-2013, 09:48 AM
New to beta, so a quick question: is the devotion enhancement line back yet and why isn't it?

Nope, if you want positive spell power you have to spends points in the defender tree. 1 spell power per point spent as I recall.

EllisDee37
08-09-2013, 11:09 AM
Nope, if you want positive spell power you have to spends points in the defender tree. 1 spell power per point spent as I recall.The defender tree is useless if you're not making a tank.

If you want devotion as a non-tank pally you need to splash 1 ranger level. May as well toss in a second ranger level to open up easier access to furyshot. I know that's what I'll be doing, currently planning on 16/2/2 pally/rogue/ranger.

Battlehawke
08-09-2013, 11:21 AM
If you want devotion as a non-tank pally you need to splash 1 ranger level. May as well toss in a second ranger level to open up easier access to furyshot. I know that's what I'll be doing, currently planning on 16/2/2 pally/rogue/ranger


Why not two Monk instead of Rogue? Evasion and TWO Feats?

Krelar
08-09-2013, 11:37 AM
So I just logged in briefly to check for any changes. I'll have to look more latter but nothing obvious has changed in the paladin trees. :(

It occurs to me that I may need to be more specific about why I feel the defender capstone is so awful compared to the knight of the chalice capstone.

The knight of the chalice capstone adds damage against evil enemies, this is literally useful multiple times in every single quest. In many quests it is useful every time I swing my weapon.

The defender capstone is only useful if you die. (And even then only if you die by less than -50 HP) I die maybe once a month and frequently that is either to instant death, brain sucked by a mindflayer, or to massive damage where -50 won't matter anyways.

So my choices are a capstone that is useful all the time or one that might help a couple of time per year. It doesn't even need to add damage but the defender capstone needs to be something that would actually be useful every time I run a quest.

Texlaw1992
08-09-2013, 02:38 PM
New icons for the various enhancements are nice. Two things I noticed:

1. Sacred Armor Mastery still only gives +1 to max armor dex bonus even when maxed.

2. Tooltip says each LOH level adds +3 LOH - actually adds +2.

Also, I used to agree with the various comments that SD capstone was not as good as the other one. However, having been caught in two major lagfights which normally would have killed me except for the capstone, you grow to appreciate it.

Edit: Corrected to reflect LOH count is a tooltip error and ED stacks normally.

Carpone
08-09-2013, 03:32 PM
Divine Might can't be used until a character has Turn Undead charges. That's doesn't occur until Paladin level 4, yet Divine Might is a tier 2 (Paladin level 2) enhancement. Divine Might should probably be moved up the enhancement tree to tier 4 to avoid this oversight in design.

easterwhale
08-09-2013, 07:24 PM
Paladin Knight of the Chalice:

NEW Divine Might is now an Insight bonus so it stacks with other Paladin abilities

Great, now it dosent stack with +3 STR insight bonus items.(confirmed)
Is this WAI?

oradafu
08-09-2013, 07:52 PM
Great, now it dosent stack with +3 STR insight bonus items.(confirmed)
Is this WAI?

From another thread:


Okay, so yeah, Vargouille just confirmed in dev chat a few minutes ago that Divine Might was intentionally nerfed into uselessness. Transcription:

(UserChat1): [To DevChat] 'yeah: does divine might stack with insightful strength items?'

(UserChat1): [DevChat] +Vargouille: 'Divine Might was changed due to a number of things not stacking within the Paladin trees themselves.'

(UserChat1): [To DevChat] 'varg, is it a bug that divine might doesn't stack with insightful strength items?'

(UserChat1): [DevChat] +Vargouille: 'Divine might does not stack with other insightful sources. That is working as intended.'

Not stacking with insightful strength items? Oy. I've seen some bad dev decisions before, but good god almighty this is one of the worst.

Pallies just got kicked in the teeth while rolling around on the ground after having been kicked in the nuts.

So it looks like it's WAI.

I did warn about this. So Divine Might has now been nerfed if Paladins want to increase STR via gear, pretty much the only option for pure Pallies besides feats and the STR enhancements and EDs. This is on top of Divine Might actually nerfing damage for any Paladin that build for Divine Might IV.

And remember, this is the only general DPS boost for paladins in either tree. All other DPS is tied into fighting Evil mobs and the additional increases via Undead or Evil Outsiders.

The Devs need to go back and redesign both Paladin trees. If they can't do this before the Update, they need to do it in conjuction with the Warpriest tree, since as things stand now the Clerics can only eclipse paladins at melee when the Warpriest tree is added. Do I expect the Devs to do it? Of course not, since they've clearly marked a line in the sand that what Paladins had a few months ago was as powerful as pure Paladins will get after the expansion.

easterwhale
08-09-2013, 08:12 PM
From another thread:
So it looks like it's WAI.
I did warn about this.---.
Thx for the info.
Well,since its WAI ...time to get myself a +3 con planar focus.

SilkofDrasnia
08-09-2013, 09:46 PM
From another thread:



So it looks like it's WAI.

I did warn about this. So Divine Might has now been nerfed if Paladins want to increase STR via gear, pretty much the only option for pure Pallies besides feats and the STR enhancements and EDs. This is on top of Divine Might actually nerfing damage for any Paladin that build for Divine Might IV.

And remember, this is the only general DPS boost for paladins in either tree. All other DPS is tied into fighting Evil mobs and the additional increases via Undead or Evil Outsiders.

The Devs need to go back and redesign both Paladin trees. If they can't do this before the Update, they need to do it in conjuction with the Warpriest tree, since as things stand now the Clerics can only eclipse paladins at melee when the Warpriest tree is added. Do I expect the Devs to do it? Of course not, since they've clearly marked a line in the sand that what Paladins had a few months ago was as powerful as pure Paladins will get after the expansion.

Have said it awhile ago but someone at turbine hates paladins and wants the class dead dead dead. It's only good for splashes now, it's bloody ludicrous to nerf such an important pally feature, just like it was asinine to take 2 pre and shove them in the same tree but not merge them, just so it plays nice for multiclassing.

Wish the ones making these changes had a clue.

oradafu
08-10-2013, 04:21 PM
I'm spitballing here, but what would the problem be if the Sacred Defender stance was a Moral bonus and Divine Might reverted to a Sacred bonus? Besides the Rage spell, is there anything else that Sacred Defender as a Moral bonus would override in the same way that Divine Might overrides an Insight bonus on items?

bloodnose13
08-10-2013, 05:06 PM
first ill comment on the important thing:

new icons look nice, great work!!!!!!

now the not so important (apparently) things:

both paladin trees still are the WORST prestiges in the new system, i would sugest for the person makeing those, to look at other classes and their prestiges.....

no other class (didint see such, with maybe exception of fighter defender) is so choked on the points and at same time forced to take stuff from multiple trees at once, stuff it mostly optional, and its a choice between usefull and less usefull for the player.

ill repeat myself with ideas i posted here before but MAYBE THIS TIME SOMEONE AT TURBINE WILL READ THEM..............

BOTH trees should get OWN LoH number boost enchancement, merged with number of turns, kotc would have extra enchancement that makes turns more powerfull and at same time adds additional charges, defender would get 3 loh and 3 turns. takeing it from one tree blocks the other, so cant be taken from both.

BOTH prestige base enchancements should grant extra damage against evil, with kotc getting also extra damage to undead or outsiders.

BOTH trees should have OWN smite enchancements, with exalted smite on the kotc focusing on raw damage and dos smite, a smite that focuses on makeing enemy weaker to damage, for paladin and whole group (either only physical damage, OR good, lawful and light daamge types), there is much more possible effects it could make, with even something similar to light monks healing curse.

Dos tree stance enchancement merged down to 3 enchancements, with 3 tiers each, but set bit higher in tree, to make space for own heal amp, dos themed heal amp could give prr per tier (TANK TREE CANT BE LEFT Without HEAL AMP!!!!!!). that enchancement with guard effect should be OPTIONAL and not merged down with something like prr, not everyone wants to have permanent guard effect on all the time!!!!!!

the +50% to armor and shield enchancements should be merged with the ones giveing ac and dex bonus to justify its cost, in its place shield mastery and shield bash dependant enchancements, giveing extra double strike and shield bash chance.

both paladin and fighter defenders could get enchancements that require defensive fighting (YES!!! i mean that nearly forgotten autogrant feat stance) to be active and would allow them to move at walk speed while shield blocking, and maybe make main hand weapon attacks while blocking at reduced speed, it would make shield block based feats and effects actualy be more usefull, such effect could shorten animation chain to the first 2 swings in animation chain, and apply hate gen bonus, a REAL defensive stance

divine might still on the kotc side but with charisma to damage and not to str, with requirement based on pnp, so 13 str and HAVEING POWER ATTACK FEAT. also with splash protection so only pure full level paladins would get full bonus, and takeing 2 levels on sorcerer would not allow to get full bonus, idea is pretty simple (divine might would make check, how many paladin levels are there in overall level value, and lower the % of cha bonus used based on that) if needed it could count the number of lore feats, they would at least have some use. same thing should be added to the paladin feat adding charisma mod to saves.

for as long as i can remember, it was asked by players for dos prestige to grant tower shield proficiency, now when there are prestiges that give proficiencies in other classes it would be good time to do that? if its not too much trouble, you probably could make new icon?? hmmmmmm?

im tired, dissapopinted, and nearly depressed by lammania, ty for giveing me access for buying rabid cat in bag.

Hajutze
08-11-2013, 02:22 PM
I'd prefer CHA to damage instead of CHA to STR for Divine Might (it has nothing to do with the fact that I am using paladin levels in DEX based build, not at all). And it will make sense to put more paladin levels in PDK (so you will get like .. twice charisma score to damage xD)

Henshaw135
08-12-2013, 05:07 AM
I have tried searching, and read the thread, but can't find anything about Magic Circle Against Evil (except from the very first few posts about missing it).

Is it removed completely, without anything to replace it with? I can't really understand the reasoning behind it if it's gone... I know I could just use a Protection From Evil clicky (I do have more than enough of them), but it's single target, instead of AOE (or I could cast it, except when fighting Beholders). Also a clicky is not that good idea in the middle of a fight if the spell gets dispelled...

While Paladins have very high saves, they won't always protect from everything while leveling.


I do know there are a lot bigger problems, but just thought of bringing it up as there wasn't any comment about it, especially from the developers.


I also agree that Undead and Evil Outsiders shouldn't be a choice between them, they should both be included for KotC by default.

SisAmethyst
08-12-2013, 07:10 AM
The defender capstone is only useful if you die. (And even then only if you die by less than -50 HP) I die maybe once a month and frequently that is either to instant death, brain sucked by a mindflayer, or to massive damage where -50 won't matter anyways.

Regarding the Capstone

I think a capstone that deal with your death is already from design a bad choice. The same thing actually is true for the Rogue capstone by the way. I mean really even Death Pact for the Cleric is just a waste. I so often have seen Clerics that cast this spell on them in the hope it would save their butt, just to instantly die twice. Please devs, run your numbers, I am pretty certain you can check how often this happen.

A deity should intervene before it is to late and grant superior protection when it is needed most.

So I totally agree, a capstone should should keep you alive in the first place. Something like if you drop below 50 HP to receive a cure and protection. Also I am not sure if like Stalwart pact which provide DR on trigger, an additional staking 5-10 DR would be to much to ask for, maybe instead of the 2% fortification? Maybe make the stacking DR depend on paladin levels, but in current epic content and a new cap of 28 a DR of 5-10 is nothing compared to the damage output of bosses.

Regarding the Enhancements

Dunno, but I am as well a bit disappointed about the Enhancements. I am, as others, also a bit on the fence with the Divine Might line.

Previously : DM I = +2 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute
Now : DM I = Insight bonus to STR equal to CHA modifier

Assuming a first live THF character with base CHA of 16, +6 item = 22 CHA = +6 modifier. This would translate to + 3 points to STR. Even a +2 tome wouldn't change this as a +7 modifier would be downgraded. Further assuming the character has no other +3 insight sources and a base STR of 18, +6 item and +2 tome = 26 STR = +8 modifier the extra 3 points would only rise it to +10. Which is the same as the +2 sacred bonus of the previous DM I, except it only last 30 seconds now.

This change indeed with DM III, which then last 2:00, but the damage doesn't increase any further.

So the same as before with base CHA of 16 +2 tome to qualify for the old DM III we get 24 CHA = +7 modifier. For the new system this translate to the same +3 points so nothing changed there with a +2 bonus. However the old DM III gave +6 sacred bonus which is a huge difference, despite it only lasted 1:00.

I mean due to the fact that you have to take extra turning to qualify for tier II enhancements you never run out of turns anyway so I don't see the improvement for the 2:00. Especially it is not 2AP worth a rank! I see actually zero reasons to take more then the first rank as it just don't scale.

I understand that the Devs try to remove a lot of stacking sources as it got out of their hands, but this change really hurt. Maybe someone can come up with a spreadsheet and running all the numbers, but I think it is sad that the extra damage source of the CHA all went gone. Maybe it was to make Paladins more easy to create but why everything need to be downgraded to please the easy button?

Also the Vigor of Life line looks a bit too high and should be moved entirely down a complete tier. If you need place role either the boost on the right of the KotC tree into one icon, or do this with Extra Remove Curse/Extra Turning or ... dunno.

Hajutze
08-12-2013, 07:23 AM
A side question, some dude was trying to convince me that paladins can now block magic somehow ? He didn't really tell me how ... or from where (a new feat or something ? couldn't see anything in the enhancements and I have friggin 6 levels of paladin in there).

Any ideas what he was talking about ?

Cashiry
08-12-2013, 11:55 AM
Regarding the Enhancements

Dunno, but I am as well a bit disappointed about the Enhancements. I am, as others, also a bit on the fence with the Divine Might line.

Previously : DM I = +2 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute
Now : DM I = Insight bonus to STR equal to CHA modifier

Assuming a first live THF character with base CHA of 16, +6 item = 22 CHA = +6 modifier. This would translate to + 3 points to STR. Even a +2 tome wouldn't change this as a +7 modifier would be downgraded. Further assuming the character has no other +3 insight sources and a base STR of 18, +6 item and +2 tome = 26 STR = +8 modifier the extra 3 points would only rise it to +10. Which is the same as the +2 sacred bonus of the previous DM I, except it only last 30 seconds now.

This change indeed with DM III, which then last 2:00, but the damage doesn't increase any further.

So the same as before with base CHA of 16 +2 tome to qualify for the old DM III we get 24 CHA = +7 modifier. For the new system this translate to the same +3 points so nothing changed there with a +2 bonus. However the old DM III gave +6 sacred bonus which is a huge difference, despite it only lasted 1:00.

I mean due to the fact that you have to take extra turning to qualify for tier II enhancements you never run out of turns anyway so I don't see the improvement for the 2:00. Especially it is not 2AP worth a rank! I see actually zero reasons to take more then the first rank as it just don't scale.

I understand that the Devs try to remove a lot of stacking sources as it got out of their hands, but this change really hurt. Maybe someone can come up with a spreadsheet and running all the numbers, but I think it is sad that the extra damage source of the CHA all went gone. Maybe it was to make Paladins more easy to create but why everything need to be downgraded to please the easy button?


Your gaining + to attack and + to damage with the Change to Divine Might. ALSO: there is no base CHA requirement for DM like in the current system

I love the change. 42 Cha= +16 mod to STR. So this equals the Current DM IV: + 8 damage, which also means I gain + 8 to attack.

My pally will have a 72 STR and a 42 CHA as a KoTC with roughly 1000 hps @lvl 28.

The only recent change to DM that I do not like is making it an INSIGHT Bonus: Not allowing it to stack with INSIGHT Items. IMHO change the Bonus to a COMPETENCE so that I can use my + Insight Items.

The reason why it was made insight bonus was due to the SACRED DEFENDER line STR bonus being changed to a SACRED bonus so that it could stack with DM. So by making the SACRED DEFENDER line stack with DM overly hurt a pure KotC by changing the bonus to insight. I don't know to many KotC that splash heavily into the Defender line.

So that being said. Paladin's, FvS's and Clerics who take DM will not need a + INSIGHT ITEM.(Doesn't make sense to me.)

benicius
08-12-2013, 03:52 PM
Your gaining + to attack and + to damage with the Change to Divine Might. ALSO: there is no base CHA requirement for DM like in the current system

I love the change. 42 Cha= +16 mod to STR. So this equals the Current DM IV: + 8 damage, which also means I gain + 8 to attack.

My pally will have a 72 STR and a 42 CHA as a KoTC with roughly 1000 hps @lvl 28.




I currently have DM IV. That was achieved at heroic levels; by level 20 not 28. Enhancements are a part of levels 1-20, I do not see where anything that you could achieve thru epic levels/destinies should matter.

Changing DM to a non-stackable insight CHA mod bonus to STR causes my Paladin to lose +4 to dmg. For clarity, here are my current stats with gear: STR 34(+12) CHA 30(+10). I have items that give a +2 insight bonus to STR and CHA.

With the changes to DM, I lose +4 to dmg. Even with a stackable bonus, I would lose +3 dmg. As you point out, a 42 CHA would get me back to where I am now. I would need to come up with 12 extra CHA from somewhere just to equal what I currently have. That is a pretty beefy upgrade to CHA.

I see this as a fairly major hit to DM. It's not like Paladins are over-powered damage-dealing machines. As a pure Paladin, what do I have as a unique class skill to increase my damage output? DM, Smites and Divine Sac. There goes one of them.

EllisDee37
08-12-2013, 04:19 PM
What do we think of Holy Retribution, the tier 5 KotC melee attack? It does 5[W] damage, plus something else I forget at the moment. Cooldown is low; I think it's 6 seconds, but maybe 12. (For comparison, tempest ranger tier 5 melee attacks have 60 and 120 second cooldowns. Which is good in that it frees up AP by letting me wholly ignore them without a second thought.)

Here's the problem: Each Holy Retribution attack uses a turn undead. Bwah?! So you get a dozen or so per shrine, less if you wanna keep DM running. It's a smite all over again.

I could twist in endless turning from US to guarantee being able to keep DM running 24/7 while using holy retribution, but geez, is there any value there for a tier 5 that requires a twist? Do people like this? I haven't formed an opinion yet, so would love some feedback.

Note that it costs 3 AP total and has no prereqs.

EllisDee37
08-12-2013, 04:21 PM
Why not two Monk instead of Rogue? Evasion and TWO Feats?For UMD and haste boost, mostly, plus maybe a little open lock and/or search.

oradafu
08-12-2013, 04:36 PM
What do we think of Holy Retribution, the tier 5 KotC melee attack? It does 5[W] damage, plus something else I forget at the moment. Cooldown is low; I think it's 6 seconds, but maybe 12. (For comparison, tempest ranger tier 5 melee attacks have 60 and 120 second cooldowns. Which is good in that it frees up AP by letting me wholly ignore them without a second thought.)

Here's the problem: Each Holy Retribution attack uses a turn undead. Bwah?! So you get a dozen or so per shrine, less if you wanna keep DM running. It's a smite all over again.

I could twist in endless turning from US to guarantee being able to keep DM running 24/7 while using holy retribution, but geez, is there any value there for a tier 5 that requires a twist? Do people like this? I haven't formed an opinion yet, so would love some feedback.

Note that it costs 3 AP total and has no prereqs.

Personally, it stinks. As you stated, it's got a short cooldown but uses Turn Undead. Even with Endless Turning, you'd burn their the clicky too quickly. I'd rather it be a longer cooldown that used nothing, like all the other melee classes have.

Second, that extra that you forgot was the "chance" of destroying Undead and Evil Outsiders with less than 1k HP on an unsuccessful will save. Again, personally, the capstone should be making all paladin weapons have Disruption and Evil Outsider Banishing. Instead, it was placed on a clicky that requires 3 different circumstances to happen before destroying trash mobs.

EllisDee37
08-12-2013, 04:43 PM
Second, that extra that you forgot was the "chance" of destroying Undead and Evil Outsiders with less than 1k HP on an unsuccessful will save. Again, personally, the capstone should be making all paladin weapons have Disruption and Evil Outsider Banishing. Instead, it was placed on a clicky that requires 3 different circumstances to happen before destroying trash mobs.Oh, right. So the secondary benefit is only for leveling.

Essentially, the moment you hit level 20 it's 5[W] and nothing else.

On the plus side, if you're going for immunity to level drain anyway, holy retribution is crazy cheap at 3 AP to essentially be a secondary smiting line for raid bosses. Right? Right? Bueller...

oradafu
08-12-2013, 05:00 PM
Oh, right. So the secondary benefit is only for leveling.

Essentially, the moment you hit level 20 it's 5[W] and nothing else.

On the plus side, if you're going for immunity to level drain anyway, holy retribution is crazy cheap at 3 AP to essentially be a secondary smiting line for raid bosses. Right? Right? Bueller...

Correct. It's technically a tertiary smite line: Smite Evil, Exalted Smite and Holy Retribution.

I'd like for the Devs to clear up if the Exalt Smite benefits also work with Holy Retribution. From the nearest I could tell, it does.

SisAmethyst
08-12-2013, 05:57 PM
Your gaining + to attack and + to damage with the Change to Divine Might. ALSO: there is no base CHA requirement for DM like in the current system

...since when you had an issue of to-hit lately? So the argument of + to attack is rather mehh.

That you not need high CHA anymore is probably the reason at all behind this, freeing up the short stat distribution on Paladins. I don't even argue about the point of not needing high CHA, its all fine and dandy. But the insight bonus and the fact that 2AP for increasing the duration is anything but cheap. Further the intention of the Enhancement pass was to make it more clear and straight forward. While not ideal neither the old +1 to damage is actually far more straight forward then 'Insight bonus to STR equal to CHA modifier'.

Last but not least it's a trap, because you not need high CHA anymore to qualify for it, but as to get a positive result you really invest into CHA. Dunno, as said, I am on the fence with it...

EllisDee37
08-13-2013, 01:17 PM
Quick question on Sacred Defense:

The tier 1 "Improved Sacred Defense" line in the Sacred Defender tree; do you need 6 pally levels to unlock the Sacred Defense stance core ability in order for this tier 1 line to do anything?

And a followup, does the stance give benefit if you don't have a shield equipped?

Krelar
08-13-2013, 02:01 PM
Quick question on Sacred Defense:

The tier 1 "Improved Sacred Defense" line in the Sacred Defender tree; do you need 6 pally levels to unlock the Sacred Defense stance core ability in order for this tier 1 line to do anything?

And a followup, does the stance give benefit if you don't have a shield equipped?

Yes you need the stance for that to do anything. You can use the first 3 enhancements without a shield but the top tier ones (+to STR/CON and HP) require a shield.

kgoodson3
08-13-2013, 02:01 PM
What do we think of Holy Retribution, the tier 5 KotC melee attack? It does 5[W] damage, plus something else I forget at the moment. Cooldown is low; I think it's 6 seconds, but maybe 12. (For comparison, tempest ranger tier 5 melee attacks have 60 and 120 second cooldowns. Which is good in that it frees up AP by letting me wholly ignore them without a second thought.)

Here's the problem: Each Holy Retribution attack uses a turn undead. Bwah?! So you get a dozen or so per shrine, less if you wanna keep DM running. It's a smite all over again.

I could twist in endless turning from US to guarantee being able to keep DM running 24/7 while using holy retribution, but geez, is there any value there for a tier 5 that requires a twist? Do people like this? I haven't formed an opinion yet, so would love some feedback.

Note that it costs 3 AP total and has no prereqs.

Holy Retribution does 5w damage and now works on ALL evil creatures. If they have less than 1k HP they get do make a will save to negate being destroyed and take 100 good damage instead. Also, adds a 10 second, -6 to all Ability Score debuff to creatures that survive the Death effect in addition to the 100 Good damage .

I can't find reference to the use of Turn Undeads to power it, but it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't mind some confirmation on that as I'm in the process os trying to make out a new Paladin build.

EllisDee37
08-13-2013, 04:18 PM
I can't find reference to the use of Turn Undeads to power it, but it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't mind some confirmation on that as I'm in the process os trying to make out a new Paladin build.I saw absolutely no indication that it requires turns either, so I was thrilled to add it as a clicky attack; finally, a tier 5 melee attack worth using!

When I used the LR+20 on my pally on lama (this was 2-3 days ago, so the most recent build) and took it and then dragged it to my hotbar, it had the number 11 on the hotbar icon. "Hmmm, that's weird" I thought. Then I thought "Hey look, Divine Might has an 11 on it too. You don't think...?" Then I clicked on Holy Retribution, and both its hotbar and Divine Might's hotbar ticked down to 10.

It does indeed use turns, confirmed. *Sad Panda* This went from finally being a tier 5 melee attack I could use to the same as all the others: worthless. Saves some AP that way at least.

EDIT: Also, note that the special vorpal roll (which has a DC likely around 40) only procs if the mob has <1000 hp. Meaning it essentially won't proc in epics, not even epic normal.

EllisDee37
08-13-2013, 04:32 PM
Yes you need the stance for that to do anything. You can use the first 3 enhancements without a shield but the top tier ones (+to STR/CON and HP) require a shield.That's not too bad then.

And I hate to sound like an idiot, but you don't get the stance until you have at least 6 pally levels, right?

bloodnose13
08-13-2013, 05:34 PM
...since when you had an issue of to-hit lately? So the argument of + to attack is rather mehh.

That you not need high CHA anymore is probably the reason at all behind this, freeing up the short stat distribution on Paladins. I don't even argue about the point of not needing high CHA, its all fine and dandy. But the insight bonus and the fact that 2AP for increasing the duration is anything but cheap. Further the intention of the Enhancement pass was to make it more clear and straight forward. While not ideal neither the old +1 to damage is actually far more straight forward then 'Insight bonus to STR equal to CHA modifier'.

Last but not least it's a trap, because you not need high CHA anymore to qualify for it, but as to get a positive result you really invest into CHA. Dunno, as said, I am on the fence with it...

paladins always needed, need, and will need charisma, its modifier is used for everything from layons, through smites, to saves, so yea its a trap, but i would call it a fat lie more or less too. im pretty sure that the reasoning of devs is based on the SPLASHES, they fear that it will be possible to create overpowered splashes, i posted the idea to fix it here at least 2 times already, wont repeat myself, there are easy ways to make sure splashes wont be overpowrered through exploiting that. as for the both trees themselves, THEY ARE LAZY.... still lazy, the biggest work that was put into the paladin prestiges was done recently and it was ICONS. sad isint it?]

paladin is my favorite class, and ddo was always hard on that class, due to BS idea from ebberon campagin to allow it to be splashed in, so we see sorcs and other weird splashes of paladin just to exploit the best things this class has to offer, I seriously would like to see tubine FIX THAT, and then be amazed how many problems it would fix.

.... whole defender tree is a joke, a bad joke, the kind that makes you want to slap someone over the back of the head for it, but kotc is not far behind, if devs wanted for those trees to be easy to use, well they have their success..... splashes willl LOVE those, as they will be AGAIN the only ones benefiting from them.

Nodoze
08-13-2013, 06:17 PM
That's not too bad then.

And I hate to sound like an idiot, but you don't get the stance until you have at least 6 pally levels, right?I have the same question. I was hoping to splash 3 paladin levels for the +20% hit points and was fine with using a shield but no point if I need 6 Paladin levels to get the +20% (even with a shield equipped).

Hajutze
08-13-2013, 09:00 PM
I have the same question. I was hoping to splash 3 paladin levels for the +20% hit points and was fine with using a shield but no point if I need 6 Paladin levels to get the +20% (even with a shield equipped).

The stance is the 3rd core ability - soooo yeah, you'll need lv6

kgoodson3
08-14-2013, 09:51 AM
Question then.....knowing what we know now and assuming you are mostly Paladin (say 14 or 15 levels of Paladin), what is the best path to DPS. Right now I'm assuming something along the lines of 15Pal/3Ranger/2Monk (pyrene) or 15Pal/3Ranger/2Fighter (heavy armor, prr, ac).

I've only tested briefly, so do not have any hard data on anything. Although from what I've seen my LR+20 on my Paladin might turn him into one of those centered Monk/Fighter builds.

EllisDee37
08-14-2013, 03:31 PM
Okay, so I spent a couple hours and re-planned out all my enhancements to include the Sacred Defense stance, getting +25 PRR and +3 saves out of the deal. I was so happy with the 80 AP spent; virtually every single point added tangible value. It was good!

Minutes after I finished this, I got a sinking feeling. Does Sacred Defender stance prevent Adrenaline? Please say no. Please say no. Please say no...

B0ltdrag0n
08-14-2013, 03:50 PM
I dont see why it would. I doesn't stack with primal scream though.

Kalevor
08-14-2013, 03:56 PM
Minutes after I finished this, I got a sinking feeling. Does Sacred Defender stance prevent Adrenaline? Please say no. Please say no. Please say no...

Sorry pal... it does. I've been there... sad panda.

B0ltdrag0n
08-14-2013, 03:59 PM
Sorry pal... it does. I've been there... sad panda.

Oh you are right. It is a rage effect.

oradafu
08-14-2013, 04:57 PM
Oh you are right. It is a rage effect.

Which leads back to my question: Why not make Sacred Defender stance was a Moral bonus and Divine Might reverted to a Sacred bonus? Besides the Rage spell, is there anything else that Sacred Defender as a Moral bonus would override in the same way that Divine Might overrides an Insight bonus on items? Especially since Rage doesn't work with Sacred Defender!

Nodoze
08-14-2013, 05:46 PM
Okay, so I spent a couple hours and re-planned out all my enhancements to include the Sacred Defense stance, getting +25 PRR and +3 saves out of the deal. I was so happy with the 80 AP spent; virtually every single point added tangible value. It was good!

Minutes after I finished this, I got a sinking feeling. Does Sacred Defender stance prevent Adrenaline? Please say no. Please say no. Please say no...
I dont see why it would. I doesn't stack with primal scream though.
Sorry pal... it does. I've been there... sad panda.Actually. IIRC and there hasn't been a code change, the answer is kinda both No & Yes...

From what I remember you could be out of DoS stance, have someone pop "Primal Scream" (PS) and then turn on DoS stance and while it clears normal Heroic rages it didn't clear the Epic Primal Scream. That being said when the PS wears off your DoS will block you from getting future PS's until you get out of stance again... IIRC there is a cool-down for switching stances & DoS has limited number of charges per rest and the duration of Primal Scream is so short that it would require a lot of micro-management to work and you would only be able to keep it up for a limited amount of time. Since I was doing this testing with one buddy's FotW Barbarian for another buddy's DoS/US Paladin who hadn't unlocked FotW I couldn't test popping Adrenaline charges with FotW's Primal Scream active at the same time as DoS... I frankly didn't pursue it any further because as the party healer (and spec builder) I have to inspect their toons periodically while we play and remind them to turn on things like their stances and rages as it is and couldn't imagine them having to switch back and forth so much...

EllisDee37
08-14-2013, 05:55 PM
Yeah, it's fundamentally unworkable for a fury pally. For such a build, adrenaline and exalted smite are joined at the hip; the former always precedes the latter. So you'd have to go out of stance every time you wanted to throw a smite.

Also, since adrenaline is a rage effect I imagine you can't charge up Unbridled Fury while the stance is active, which kills any hope of using furyshot. All in all I just can't use the stance. Maybe for leveling from 1 to 20 I suppose...

Nodoze
08-14-2013, 06:47 PM
Yeah, it's fundamentally unworkable for a fury pally. For such a build, adrenaline and exalted smite are joined at the hip; the former always precedes the latter. So you'd have to go out of stance every time you wanted to throw a smite.

Also, since adrenaline is a rage effect I imagine you can't charge up Unbridled Fury while the stance is active, which kills any hope of using furyshot. All in all I just can't use the stance. Maybe for leveling from 1 to 20 I suppose...It certainly wasn't for our group as we are a casual static group that only plays weekly & we take our time on quests and can often spend hours in quests.

If I were in a zerg group and we were to typically finish quests in ~15 minutes or are at least close to no more than 15 minutes per shrine then I would maybe try it to verify.

IIRC the ability to be under the Primal Scream Rage at the same time as DoS gives you about 3 minutes per use. From memory you have 5 charges on the Primal Scream Rage and coincidentally 5 charges for getting into DoS stance per rest... As long as you always turn off DoS & then pop Primal Scream before turning DoS back on you should get 15 minutes of being Raged while under DoS stance (5 charges in each like they planned it).

While you may not accrue charges under normal DoS, you may accrue Adrenaline charges while Raged under DoS due to Primal Scream being active... Don't know if it works as I don't have a Fury Paladin to test it on but if I was in a zerg group and willing to grind I may have tried it.

EDIT: Verified still working on live; Since tonight is our weekly night I had our Unyielding-Sentinel DoS Paladin turn off his stance and the Fury Barbarian popped his Primal Scream and then the DoS Paladin went back into max stance and the Primal Scream was still there with 2:58 seconds left... Would be cool if someone who has both FotW & DoS can see if they can earn & can spend Adrenaline charges with Rage on due to Primal Scream being active....

eonfreon
08-14-2013, 11:54 PM
It certainly wasn't for our group as we are a casual static group that only plays weekly & we take our time on quests and can often spend hours in quests.

If I were in a zerg group and we were to typically finish quests in ~15 minutes or are at least close to no more than 15 minutes per shrine then I would maybe try it to verify.

IIRC the ability to be under the Primal Scream Rage at the same time as DoS gives you about 3 minutes per use. From memory you have 5 charges on the Primal Scream Rage and coincidentally 5 charges for getting into DoS stance per rest... As long as you always turn off DoS & then pop Primal Scream before turning DoS back on you should get 15 minutes of being Raged while under DoS stance (5 charges in each like they planned it).

While you may not accrue charges under normal DoS, you may accrue Adrenaline charges while Raged under DoS due to Primal Scream being active... Don't know if it works as I don't have a Fury Paladin to test it on but if I was in a zerg group and willing to grind I may have tried it.

EDIT: Verified still working on live; Since tonight is our weekly night I had our Unyielding-Sentinel DoS Paladin turn off his stance and the Fury Barbarian popped his Primal Scream and then the DoS Paladin went back into max stance and the Primal Scream was still there with 2:58 seconds left... Would be cool if someone who has both FotW & DoS can see if they can earn & can spend Adrenaline charges with Rage on due to Primal Scream being active....

I have used the Fury ED as a DoS. However, I haven't played in a couple of months so it may have changed. But last I tried, I could earn Adrenaline but I could not spend it in the DoS stance, regardless of whether I was under the influence of Primal Scream or not. To actually use Adrenaline I had to turn off my stance. But it would recharge on vorpals when I was in DoS stance.

Nodoze
08-15-2013, 12:33 AM
I have used the Fury ED as a DoS. However, I haven't played in a couple of months so it may have changed. But last I tried, I could earn Adrenaline but I could not spend it in the DoS stance, regardless of whether I was under the influence of Primal Scream or not. To actually use Adrenaline I had to turn off my stance. But it would recharge on vorpals when I was in DoS stance.Do you remember if you also charged up Fury as well when in DoS stance? If you were charging up both you could every 5 mins or so drop stance and unload all your adrenalized smites and then pop your epic moment and then turtle up if you wanted while waiting to build back up your smites, adrenaline, & Fury. Interesting.

eonfreon
08-15-2013, 12:42 AM
Do you remember if you also charged up Fury as well when in DoS stance? If you were charging up both you could every 5 mins or so drop stance and unload all your adrenalized smites and then pop your epic moment and then turtle up if you wanted while waiting to build back up your smites, adrenaline, & Fury. Interesting.

Just for the heck of it I logged on and made Fury ED active to check.

While in stance I could charge up Fury on every Vorpal like normal. And vorpals would recharge Adrenaline 33% of the time as expected.

You just can't spend adrenaline or fury while in stance. Well, actually you can spend it and the counter will go down, but it won't actually work while in stance.

EDIT: BTW, I recharged adrenaline and incremented Fury both the same while under the influence of Primal Scream or not.

EllisDee37
08-15-2013, 05:28 AM
Interesting.

Hmmm.

Maybe it is workable after all. Super inelegant, but possibly worthwhile. Decisions, decisions.

Btw, thanks a ton for hopping on to test it. Much appreciated.

eonfreon
08-15-2013, 05:18 PM
Interesting.

Hmmm.

Maybe it is workable after all. Super inelegant, but possibly worthwhile. Decisions, decisions.

Btw, thanks a ton for hopping on to test it. Much appreciated.

Np, but keep in mind that this was tested on Live, so I have no idea yet how things will interact with the new update and the enhancement pass. For all I know the Devs could consider the fact that Fury and Adrenaline charges still functioned under the DoS stance to be unintended and undesirable and have "fixed" it.

Or just in tinkering with the code to change the stance up to function with and without shields in different ways could in and of itself change the behavior.

So, the behavior I described was how I played my DoS while earning xp in the FoTW up until currently. It was indeed "inelegant" but it was functional. Required quite a lot of micromanaging and switching stance and such, but the dps trade-off made it worth it.

But I have no idea how it will work after the update. I can't even really speculate.

Nodoze
08-19-2013, 09:24 PM
Np, but keep in mind that this was tested on Live, so I have no idea yet how things will interact with the new update and the enhancement pass. For all I know the Devs could consider the fact that Fury and Adrenaline charges still functioned under the DoS stance to be unintended and undesirable and have "fixed" it.

Or just in tinkering with the code to change the stance up to function with and without shields in different ways could in and of itself change the behavior.

So, the behavior I described was how I played my DoS while earning xp in the FoTW up until currently. It was indeed "inelegant" but it was functional. Required quite a lot of micromanaging and switching stance and such, but the dps trade-off made it worth it.

But I have no idea how it will work after the update. I can't even really speculate.I checked on live and with the new SD stance & you can still get the Primal Scream buff as long as you turn off SD stance prior to PS... The other good change is that there are no longer charges on going into SD stance like there was for DoS stance so you could turn it on/off as many times as you want however the cool-down is now longer (now 60 seconds for SD vs 20 seconds before for DoS IIRC). If you are in stance you can turn it off, get the scream, and turn it right back on however you can only do that once every 60 seconds. That is pretty cool as we have at least 2 Fury DPS in our party who currently alternate Primal Screams so we have at least 10 per rest if they coordinate.

I personally can't test whether you can still accumulate charges or not but if you can you can toggle on/off stance to use them every 60 seconds if you want. That being said you will lose HPs but some healing is fairly cheap/free (auras/bursts/etc).

nevigrofnu
08-24-2013, 10:48 AM
all I can say is thanks for ruining my pallies.

my 2 hander lost a bunch of hp because he now needs a shield to have lots of health. STUPID!

my s&b is all f''ed up. did you know that every time you switch weapons you lose the bonus to hp and con that you gain from a shield.
oh and it stacks. meaning each time you switch weapons it lowers your current hp. eventually causing death. I was killing myself for hours the other day in the harbor just to show off my new awesome powers. btw its a lvl 25 with 1100 hp. I can kill myself in about 30 sec from full health. by switching weapons fast.

I sent a ticket. they tell me its wai.

this is by far the stupidest fuking thing ive ever seen in a game.

nevigrofnu
08-24-2013, 10:49 AM
all I can say is thanks for ruining my pallies.

my 2 hander lost a bunch of hp because he now needs a shield to have lots of health. STUPID!

my s&b is all f''ed up. did you know that every time you switch weapons you lose the bonus to hp and con that you gain from a shield.
oh and it stacks. meaning each time you switch weapons it lowers your current hp. eventually causing death. I was killing myself for hours the other day in the harbor just to show off my new awesome powers. btw its a lvl 25 with 1100 hp. I can kill myself in about 30 sec from full health. by switching weapons fast.

I sent a ticket. they tell me its wai.

this is by far the stupidest fuking thing ive ever seen in a game.

nevigrofnu
08-24-2013, 12:43 PM
all I can say is thanks for ruining my pallies.

my 2 hander lost a bunch of hp because he now needs a shield to have lots of health. STUPID!

my s&b is all f''ed up. did you know that every time you switch weapons you lose the bonus to hp and con that you gain from a shield.
oh and it stacks. meaning each time you switch weapons it lowers your current hp. eventually causing death. I was killing myself for hours the other day in the harbor just to show off my new awesome powers. btw its a lvl 25 with 1100 hp. I can kill myself in about 30 sec from full health. by switching weapons fast.

I sent a ticket. they tell me its wai.

this is by far the stupidest fuking thing ive ever seen in a game.

editing post can apparently not be done....so, sorry for the double post.

nevigrofnu
08-24-2013, 12:56 PM
also its causing dmg to the equipped shield when you die in public.

bloodnose13
08-25-2013, 11:48 AM
well lets face it, nothing will change, and nothing we say here matters, becosue turbine made sure that ONLY splashes will have fun, pure classes pally is supposed to dissapear and be replaced with 2-6 level splashes, for whom this new enchancement system was made for.

for years it was asked of turbine to give defender free tower shield proficiency, happened? no, why? becouse its against pnp? or what ever other reason, while half of classes get free proficiencies in weapons in their prestiges.

divine might gets changed, why? probably becouse pally splashed with anything would get overpowered, its easy to stop from happening by implementing same thing as with sp items on splashed fvs and sorcs, it does not happen, why? becouse its bad, splashes are supposed to have fun while full pure classes get gimped.

i like most of the changes made to other classes and their prestiges, they show that someone put some real thought and work into them, while paladin was just done lazy way, it shows that only thought that was behind it, was to make it splash friendly and NOTHING MORE.

defender capstone is good thing at times when all stars align and you get killed by papercuts, in any fight above certain level its useless when every death ends with -500 hp, tis not something that should be a capstone but a OPTIONAL thing that can be taken with ap from the tree.

i seriously hoped that something nice will be done with this class, to make less of an outcast of it, and you only made it worse..............

oradafu
08-25-2013, 12:51 PM
divine might gets changed, why? probably becouse pally splashed with anything would get overpowered, its easy to stop from happening by implementing same thing as with sp items on splashed fvs and sorcs, it does not happen, why? becouse its bad, splashes are supposed to have fun while full pure classes get gimped.


From what I could see, Divine Might was initially changed to help with tactics. This sort of proves to me that none of the Devs play a pure paladin. Pure paladins picking up tactical feats is a waste of a feat slot because Paladins are feat starved and decent DCs isn't something most pure paladins seek.

Instead, the changes were to help Monks and Fighters with their DCs, not the Paladin. So if the Devs really wanted to put a tactical ability or boost, they should have added a new ability, instead of changing an old one. Let's face it, it wasn't like the Devs gave paladins new stuff to play with like the other classes, but for some reason the Devs got really lazy with the paladin trees.

Now the stacking issue is where the Devs dropped the ball completely. I've yet to hear a good reason why the Defender stance shouldn't be a Moral bonus. It already doesn't benefit from Rage and Paladins can't splash with Bard, so there should be no real issue with it being a Moral Stance. Then Divine Might should go back to being a Sacred bonus, so Paladins can regain benefits from items.

But again, I suggest the Devs seperate Divine Might from the STR increase. Divine Might should be the pnp version: CHA modifier is added to damage. Then have a new seperate paladin ability that increases STR. Heck, if they did that, there would almost be no issue, since it would give Pure paladins, TWF paladins, non-STR paladins their damage back. And the Devs would get to keep their new pet ability for splashed paladins.

nevigrofnu
08-29-2013, 03:47 PM
yay nothing got fixed tday in the patch...woooohoooo.

DarkKnightUCF
10-12-2013, 12:30 PM
From what I could see, Divine Might was initially changed to help with tactics. This sort of proves to me that none of the Devs play a pure paladin. Pure paladins picking up tactical feats is a waste of a feat slot because Paladins are feat starved and decent DCs isn't something most pure paladins seek.

Instead, the changes were to help Monks and Fighters with their DCs, not the Paladin. So if the Devs really wanted to put a tactical ability or boost, they should have added a new ability, instead of changing an old one. Let's face it, it wasn't like the Devs gave paladins new stuff to play with like the other classes, but for some reason the Devs got really lazy with the paladin trees.

Now the stacking issue is where the Devs dropped the ball completely. I've yet to hear a good reason why the Defender stance shouldn't be a Moral bonus. It already doesn't benefit from Rage and Paladins can't splash with Bard, so there should be no real issue with it being a Moral Stance. Then Divine Might should go back to being a Sacred bonus, so Paladins can regain benefits from items.

But again, I suggest the Devs seperate Divine Might from the STR increase. Divine Might should be the pnp version: CHA modifier is added to damage. Then have a new seperate paladin ability that increases STR. Heck, if they did that, there would almost be no issue, since it would give Pure paladins, TWF paladins, non-STR paladins their damage back. And the Devs would get to keep their new pet ability for splashed paladins.


I am returning to the game from a long hiatus, and as I am reading these changes to the Paladin, the first thought hat came to my head was, "Since when did the World of Warcraft Dev's come to DDO?"

maddmatt70
10-12-2013, 01:39 PM
I am returning to the game from a long hiatus, and as I am reading these changes to the Paladin, the first thought hat came to my head was, "Since when did the World of Warcraft Dev's come to DDO?"

All non pally tanks have lrrd +20 their paladins unless they are casual or flavor paladins. I know that I have lrrd +20 my non pally tank.

bennyson
01-10-2014, 09:32 PM
Turbine, am glad I found this thread because there are some things I like to say.

The current Divine Might, what it does, along with its bonus type, is PATHETIC!

It doesn't stack with Insightful STR items like Embrace of the Spider Queen or a level 20+ Helm of the White/Black Dragon

Also, in order to get back that +8 to damage, like everyone else has been complaining, they need 42 CHA! WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET WITHOUT DUMPING OTHER IMPORTANT STATS LIKE STR OR CON!

Also, in order to get the +6 STR, +6 CON, and +20% extra HP, is to use a shield?!?!? THIS, I mean really, doesn't this destroy character progression on pures?

The dream of Duel-wielding pure Paladins is dead, gone, destroyed, crushed into oblivion.

The dream of Two Handed fighting pure Paladins is wounded, weakened, injuried with no possibility of recovering.

Making the Paladin nothing more than a splash class is just wrong, I mean, its MADNESS! INSANITY!

Were you all infected with the madness of Xoriat? Did the Lord of Eyes twist your minds? Because it looks like he did a good job of it. Thanks a lot for dishonoring Gary Gygax's legacy of the Paladin class. Thanks a lot for murdering us Paladins like we were nothing, nothing but trash...

I rest my case

Scrag
01-21-2014, 11:26 AM
Also, in order to get back that +8 to damage, like everyone else has been complaining, they need 42 CHA! WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET WITHOUT DUMPING OTHER IMPORTANT STATS LIKE STR OR CON!



It isn't. The mechanics favor slight investment in strength, not you just dumping all your points into strength blindly. As for con, proper asignment of stats as you level and with equipment makes it very reasonable for you to have a good con. Its possible to rock a 44 cha, 42+ str(I actually have a higher strength than cha at this point some how... boggle), and pretty decent con as a second life drow. Not sure where this impossible stuff is coming from.