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Bakalakadaka
04-19-2013, 01:27 AM
Why for the love of cheese make this an INT based skill? You are basically saying that only Wizards and Artificers need apply as all the high WIS/CHA based classes get nothing from their stats.

Instead of making it a skill with a specific stat why not either:
- base the bonus on the primary stat of the higher caster level of the character; or (better yet)
- make it a free enhancement where the player gets to choose themselves which stat is used as the benefit.

In the new enhancement process you have multi-choice options already implemented so why not use this mechanic to enable the player to decide which stat they want buffing their spell power? This gives multi-class characters the freedom they want to push their spell power however they wish.

To me this is a no brainer.

It is bad enough that the new enhancement UI means that anytime you want to add a new enhancement or prestige you have to redo the whole thing, but don't go nerfing people as well by forcing them to take stats they don't need. Listen to your players this time and do it right )or at least better) instead of forcing in yet another broken change and then spending years fixing it (like the ridiculous cosmetic system and the still painful auction house).

Stanley_Nicholas
04-19-2013, 01:52 AM
It's because Spellcraft is an int skill in PnP.

Archangel666
04-19-2013, 01:54 AM
It's because Spellcraft is an int skill in PnP.

And what does Spellcraft do in PnP again?

Bakalakadaka
04-19-2013, 03:14 AM
And what does PnP have to do with DDO anymore anyway? It got left behind a long time ago. May have been an excuse (i.e. poor reason) back when it launch but this isn't D&D anymore - its DDO.

Understand your comment, but it is a poor reason if that is Turbine's justification - especially given that PnP Spellcraft is all about identifying active spells and has nothing to do with the DDO spell power mechanic.

Stanley_Nicholas
04-19-2013, 03:58 AM
And what does Spellcraft do in PnP again?

Not what it does in DDO.


And what does PnP have to do with DDO anymore anyway? It got left behind a long time ago. May have been an excuse (i.e. poor reason) back when it launch but this isn't D&D anymore - its DDO.

Understand your comment, but it is a poor reason if that is Turbine's justification - especially given that PnP Spellcraft is all about identifying active spells and has nothing to do with the DDO spell power mechanic.

Not saying it's a good decision. It's clearly a problematic one. But it's also clearly Turbine's reasoning.

Iriale
04-19-2013, 04:51 AM
Turbine wants underused skills (as heal/repair) become more useful. Turbine also wants that some classes that have many class skills in pnp (like wizards, with 10 knowledge skills and spellcraft) have choices. Wizards have no class options in DDO. The problem is that the class skills for wizards in pnp are useful outside of combat, and DDO is combat only. So they have tried to convert spellcraft in a combat skill. Something that the rules have never intended in pnp, of course. But DDO is different.

But is absurd that Perform control non-bardic magic, or Heal pale master spells, etc. If they go for this route, they need create two new skills: Spellcraft (int/car) for arcane spells, Spiritual focus (sab) for divine spells and Perform for bard spells. Done. This would be fluff-wise. If Perform control divine spells (or sorcerer/wizard/artificer spells) would be a joke xD.

Heal and Repair are not useful in a MMO. Things go faster in a MMO than in pnp. They need be eliminated, or convert in one active boost as level 1 druid spell Lesser vigor (better as high is the skill) These skills shouldn’t control spells.

And they need think in the multiclass problem. Multiclass builds need get some skills from their classes as class skills for all levels (some, NOT all). In pnp prestige classes help with skills in multiclass. DDO, no.

Too, in DDO there are many skills more useful than in pnp, where they are a rare luxury for no-specialist characters. UMD is much more necessary in an MMO that pnp, for example. So many people spend skill points in cross class skills than in pnp are used only for specialists. And skills points are always few.

And then we know than in DDO we need very high abilities to be efficient in our profession. It is difficult for many classes have intelligence for all the skills they need. 2 + int skill points are few. They are few even in pnp where people don't invest in cross class skills.

A MMO works differently to pnp. Turbine's intention is good and praiseworthy. But it has many ramifications. It’s complicated. They should think through all this before making changes. If they choose this route other things should change too.

English is not my native language. I hope you understand my post.

Deadlock
04-19-2013, 04:59 AM
Why not simply remove Spellcraft and have the +1% per level based off Arcane Lore that we get for free with each caster level?

Gives the small incremental power bump per level and doesn't involve wasting Skill points that INT based classes don't have the luxury of splashing about.

EDIT: Or make Spellcraft the casting device booster (+1 DC, +5% effectiveness) on devices that cast arcane spells if you really want to keep it.

Mark2422
04-19-2013, 06:30 AM
I personally do not see a problem with it being Int based. Bottom line for me (As a caster Druid) is that it is going to give me 20-40 more spell power even without me being int based. Thats 20-40 more than I am getting from skills on live right now.

I can however see a potential imbalance with Wiz and Sorc. Wiz are going to get a greater elemental spell power boost from spellcraft compared to a Sorc. This is kind of silly when you consider that Wizards are more DC based and Sorcs are the DPS. Also Wiz (palemaster) is more Neg spell power where Sorc is the Elemental spell power. In reality it should be the sorc receiving the extra boost from spellcraft as it better suits them. Maybe this skill should not have been called spellcraft because of the problems it seems to cause in relating it to its PnP counterpart.

Tid12
04-19-2013, 06:37 AM
I personally do not see a problem with it being Int based. Bottom line for me (As a caster Druid) is that it is going to give me 20-40 more spell power even without me being int based. Thats 20-40 more than I am getting from skills on live right now.

IT IS NOT.

People should stop spreading FALSE INFORMATION.

On live, you can get 100 Spell power from enhancements. End of the story.
On lama, you can get up to 56 from Enhancements with well 73 (SEVENTY THREE) points in the class trees and ONLY 7 IN THE RACIAL ONE.

Spellcraft adds a max of 43 if you really are maxing Int after CHA and CON for a total of 99 (NINETY NINE) Spell power.

100 > 99, that in most cases will be ~90 (only a crazy would spend all the 80 points in the Class trees).

100 > 90.


Spellcraft is just a stupid skill designed to nerf the Cha-based classes like Sorcerers. So it won't be, it won't result, it IS NOT A PLUS FROM LIVE.

Dilbon
04-19-2013, 06:54 AM
On live, you can get 100 Spell power from enhancements. End of the story.

Druids get 65.

oweieie
04-19-2013, 08:27 AM
You may be able to use your CHR to sleep with your teacher and get a piece of paper saying you have a high INT, but when you're facing a test where you have to actually show the work, you need the INT.

Tid12
04-19-2013, 08:35 AM
You may be able to use your CHR to sleep with your teacher and get a piece of paper saying you have a high INT, but when you're facing a test where you have to actually show the work, you need the INT.

Such a weak excuse.

Sorcerers don't need INT to use magic.

"Sorcerers are arcane spellcasters who manipulate magic energy with imagination and talent rather than studious discipline. They have no books, no mentors, no theories—just raw power that they direct at will".

Either give us another CHA Based skill or make Spellcraft Cha/Int/Wis based. Sorcerers don't need to study to learn magic, so they don't need Int to increase their Spellpower in DDO. And when I say Sorcerers, I mean all the classes that aren't based on Int.

It's a skill bad implemented, end of the story.

Mark2422
05-01-2013, 03:12 AM
IT IS NOT.

People should stop spreading FALSE INFORMATION.

On live, you can get 100 Spell power from enhancements. End of the story.
On lama, you can get up to 56 from Enhancements with well 73 (SEVENTY THREE) points in the class trees and ONLY 7 IN THE RACIAL ONE.

Spellcraft adds a max of 43 if you really are maxing Int after CHA and CON for a total of 99 (NINETY NINE) Spell power.

100 > 99, that in most cases will be ~90 (only a crazy would spend all the 80 points in the Class trees).

100 > 90.


Spellcraft is just a stupid skill designed to nerf the Cha-based classes like Sorcerers. So it won't be, it won't result, it IS NOT A PLUS FROM LIVE.

Oh how I have waited weeks to reply to this!

Maybe you should take your own advice. I clearly stated in my post that I was talking from a Druid perspective. And from that perspective, we don't get 100 as you said. We get 65 on live now. In the new system we happily pull more than 65 from our caster tree, to match what we are currently getting from enhancements. So my statement stands. Anything we gain from spellcraft is a bonus.

Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start branding my information as false because now you made yourself look silly...

Wizza
05-01-2013, 03:46 AM
Oh how I have waited weeks to reply to this!

Maybe you should take your own advice. I clearly stated in my post that I was talking from a Druid perspective. And from that perspective, we don't get 100 as you said. We get 65 on live now. In the new system we happily pull more than 65 from our caster tree, to match what we are currently getting from enhancements. So my statement stands. Anything we gain from spellcraft is a bonus.

Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start branding my information as false because now you made yourself look silly...

Or maybe you should have also read some other topic where, quote, a Dev said "Spellcraft skill will NOT be put in the game at the same time as Enhancement pass".

Also, you are talking just from a Druid perspective? That's both stupid AND egoist. Wizards are getting less, Sorcerers are getting less. Honestly, I don't know how much the other classes are getting on live at the moment. The only fact I know is: Spellcraft will not be an addiction, also because, again, it will not be put on live at the same time as the pass ;)

Also, unless you are spending more than 65 points in one tree (and I can't see that happening) ignoring the Racial tree + Nature's Warrior tree, then you will face also a loss of Spell power when this goes live. Now please, tell me that you will be doing it :rolleyes:

Aashrym
05-01-2013, 04:57 PM
Or maybe you should have also read some other topic where, quote, a Dev said "Spellcraft skill will NOT be put in the game at the same time as Enhancement pass".

Also, you are talking just from a Druid perspective? That's both stupid AND egoist. Wizards are getting less, Sorcerers are getting less. Honestly, I don't know how much the other classes are getting on live at the moment. The only fact I know is: Spellcraft will not be an addiction, also because, again, it will not be put on live at the same time as the pass ;)

Also, unless you are spending more than 65 points in one tree (and I can't see that happening) ignoring the Racial tree + Nature's Warrior tree, then you will face also a loss of Spell power when this goes live. Now please, tell me that you will be doing it :rolleyes:

My Wizard is getting more, not less. .75 universal or 1.5 negative per AP spent in PM and 1 per AP spent in AM plus cross class healing is still over 100 negative spell power. The same set up for all 4 energy types is +92 with just the skill bonus from GH before adding any other skill bonuses or INT bonus.

Wizards and Artificers are INT based and have the skill points to spare. Druids, Clerics, and FvS's were never at 100 spell power in their enhancements in the first place, so making adjustments to fit healing and spellcraft in does provide the opportunity for higher spell power than they currently have whether it's INT bonus or not on spellcraft.

Sorcs kind of take a kick in the teeth on it because they can get spell power up but only in their chosen elements (not necessarily bad but very restrictive and I can see a lot of players not liking that) unless they multiclass another caster splash in for a tree that provides more spell power. Even then it's an easy +32 spell power from spell craft for anyone just capping ranks and using GH. That's more an issue with the sorc trees than an issue with an INT based skill.

I think the skills have too much emphasis and the trees not enough but the ability to get the spell power up to where it is on live is available in the system, and higher for the most part.

Your comment on when the skill is going live is actually irrelevant. The thread is about the skill and how it works, and the person whom you posted refuted numbers correctly. It's not false information to state we can get higher spell power on lamma than live with the skills in place.

It really just looks like some people want a bonus they see someone else getting and feel entitled to the same bonus. That's the only difference INT actually makes. A person could simply use ranks instead of bonus or cap it like jump so that some classes get there faster but they all end in the same spot, and that corrects the stat based imbalance.

Mark2422
05-01-2013, 05:21 PM
Or maybe you should have also read some other topic where, quote, a Dev said "Spellcraft skill will NOT be put in the game at the same time as Enhancement pass".

Also, you are talking just from a Druid perspective? That's both stupid AND egoist. Wizards are getting less, Sorcerers are getting less. Honestly, I don't know how much the other classes are getting on live at the moment. The only fact I know is: Spellcraft will not be an addiction, also because, again, it will not be put on live at the same time as the pass ;)

Also, unless you are spending more than 65 points in one tree (and I can't see that happening) ignoring the Racial tree + Nature's Warrior tree, then you will face also a loss of Spell power when this goes live. Now please, tell me that you will be doing it :rolleyes:

Well you just made yourself look as silly as Tid12...

As Aashrym said, whether it goes live at the same time as the new enhancements does not matter. I was giving an honest analysis on how spellcraft was on Lam from a druids perspective. That is what I am supposed to do as a Lam tester. Giving my view, purely from a druids perspective is not "stupid". I am a dedicated druid player who very rarely plays alts. So the druid is the only perspective I felt qualified to give a fair opinion from.

As for you making assumptions about me and how I will spend my points on my build. Not only are you wrong, but you have made yourself look rather silly by even trying to guess how someone would spend their points. The truth is IF (a big if since its only alpha) the enhancements went live as they are now, as a pure caster I would spend atleast 70 points in one tree since there was nothing of vaule in Natures Warrior and only + 1 wisdom would help my build in the racial tree's.

The problem here is that you and Tid12 have made sweeping generalisations and assumptions about classes, builds and players that you obviously have very little information about. Maybe you should both try doing what I did initialy and limit your view and opinion to the things you actually do know about...

Singular_is_annoyed
05-01-2013, 08:41 PM
You may be able to use your CHR to sleep with your teacher and get a piece of paper saying you have a high INT, but when you're facing a test where you have to actually show the work, you need the INT.

If your spells and entire way of "knowing" magic is through charisma, then an int-based skill won't help you. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to tell sorcs "sure, everything about your magic is charisma based, but to really get it, you're just going to have to read lots and train an int based skill."

The whole point of separating wizards from sorcerers is lost if an int-based spellcraft boosts spellpower.

Wizza
05-02-2013, 04:43 AM
My Wizard is getting more, not less. .75 universal or 1.5 negative per AP spent in PM and 1 per AP spent in AM plus cross class healing is still over 100 negative spell power. The same set up for all 4 energy types is +92 with just the skill bonus from GH before adding any other skill bonuses or INT bonus.

Wizards and Artificers are INT based and have the skill points to spare. Druids, Clerics, and FvS's were never at 100 spell power in their enhancements in the first place, so making adjustments to fit healing and spellcraft in does provide the opportunity for higher spell power than they currently have whether it's INT bonus or not on spellcraft.

Sorcs kind of take a kick in the teeth on it because they can get spell power up but only in their chosen elements (not necessarily bad but very restrictive and I can see a lot of players not liking that) unless they multiclass another caster splash in for a tree that provides more spell power. Even then it's an easy +32 spell power from spell craft for anyone just capping ranks and using GH. That's more an issue with the sorc trees than an issue with an INT based skill.

I think the skills have too much emphasis and the trees not enough but the ability to get the spell power up to where it is on live is available in the system, and higher for the most part.

Your comment on when the skill is going live is actually irrelevant. The thread is about the skill and how it works, and the person whom you posted refuted numbers correctly. It's not false information to state we can get higher spell power on lamma than live with the skills in place.

It really just looks like some people want a bonus they see someone else getting and feel entitled to the same bonus. That's the only difference INT actually makes. A person could simply use ranks instead of bonus or cap it like jump so that some classes get there faster but they all end in the same spot, and that corrects the stat based imbalance.

You are getting more Negative Spell power, yeah..but overall less Spell power, that is the point. Without Spellcraft, your other spellpowers are taking a hit. That's the whole point. Even if you spend the whole 80 points in the AM tree, that's 80 USP while now, on Live, you can get 100 to the elements that you care, even all of them if you wanted.

When the skill is going live is actually a foundamental point of the whole discussion. As I said above, without Spellcraft, we are looking at a nerf. If spellcraft will be added in 2 years from now, your wizard will be nerfed for 2 years regarding Spellpower. You see the point now?

Aashrym
05-03-2013, 12:21 AM
You are getting more Negative Spell power, yeah..but overall less Spell power, that is the point. Without Spellcraft, your other spellpowers are taking a hit. That's the whole point. Even if you spend the whole 80 points in the AM tree, that's 80 USP while now, on Live, you can get 100 to the elements that you care, even all of them if you wanted.

When the skill is going live is actually a foundamental point of the whole discussion. As I said above, without Spellcraft, we are looking at a nerf. If spellcraft will be added in 2 years from now, your wizard will be nerfed for 2 years regarding Spellpower. You see the point now?

That's still pretty pointless in a discussion on how the skill actually works. I also doubt we'll be waiting for 2 years to implement the skill. Any delays creating a nerf just gets back to my point that the skills carry too much spell power while the enhancements don't carry enough.

As far as overall class impact if we do choose to ignore spell power...

Druid casters can still have close to the 65 they have now if they spend heavily in season's herald and exceed what they have now in positive. They have the same issue as bards where the melee tree doesn't provide spell power and should provide something. Leaving spellcraft out doesn't remove the heal skill from the game. Including spellcraft is a clear increase for druids.

Cleric casters never had much for spell power enhancements. They are taking a hit to smiting lines and light, gaining for several spells including blade barrier, and gaining for positive and negative. Including spellcraft is a clear increase for clerics.

FvS's are similar to clerics. They are losing out a bit on the smiting lines and light, but gaining on other lines including blade barrier, and gaining in positive and negative. Including spellcraft is a clear increase for FvS's.

Bards melee tree doesn't have any spell power and that's not great for melee bards. Caster bards are gaining every area including the 10 for the capstone and 40+ in the spellsinger tree. Positive has less in the tree but the heal skill brings it back up over the 80 currently available on live. Sonic has a large increase with perform and goes well over 100 compared to the 80 on live. (EDIT: The ironic thing about this they don't actually have any spells to take advantage of the spell power; and positive spell power, the only kind typical bards might make significant use of is achieved by cross classing and also a relative loss compared to other healers. Most of the spell power lines don't do them any good until epic destinies.)

Artificers need to split down the trees for spell power to get the battle engineer innates and spell power from arcanotech to get in the 85-90 range including arcane engine. This is close to a slight nerf, except they get a bonus to positive they never had before (and affects the grenades), and fill out all their energy/force lines instead of 1 or 2, and have a capstone bonus to spellcraft that we are choosing to ignore for now. Without spellcraft they are losing about 10 spell power to a couple of energy lines, gaining a lot of spell power to the remaining energy lines, gaining spell power for their healing grenades, and have a bonus we are not counting in the capstone. Once we start counting spellcraft they will have exceeded spell power across the board as in INT based caster with a capstone bonus. Those are small losses for significant gains.

Wizards are gaining in negative spell power regardless of spellcraft for PM's. They are taking a hit in the AM tree without spell craft as they drop to about 60 in various lines, 1 or 2 of which is a cut, the others are a gain. This is a nerf in elemental lines while promoting spell swapping and a benefit in other areas. The Repair gives them a bonus above what they have now but that's rather niche. In the meantime, there are more DC bonuses available. Self healing undead drow enchanters are looking better these days so I have a hard time calling the changes for wizard a nerf so much as one dimensional if we choose to ignore spellcraft. Once we start including spellcraft wizards also exceed what they have now all around.

The people who are really taking the hit are melee focused bards, melee focused druids, paladins, rangers, and sorcerers. Self healing melee seem to have been left behind and that has nothing to do with spellcraft, when it's coming in, or the fact it's INT based. The heal skill does not make up for the limited positive spell power for those classes.

Sorcerers are still looking at about 50 spell power depending on what is spent in other trees and gains 30 in his chosen element tree. This is actually more similar to live where 1 or 2 energy lines have any investment and without spellcraft does end up with less total spell power available in the primary elemental line. This isn't casters in general, this is one caster in particular. Once he adds in spell craft he's also over 100 in 2 energy lines the way things are.

Most casters are better off in more areas under the new system even without spellcraft, and definitely better in most areas with spellcraft. There are actually very few casters who can't build with spell power in mind although some are limited in the direction taken. There was also an across the board DC bonus for casters in the trees with more caster stat bonuses and in several cases actual DC bonuses. It's some of the melee builds who take the hit on self healing, and I think the relative adjustments favor sorcerers poorly

The only point in discussing INT as relevant is because wizards and artificers obviously make out like bandits on the synergy between caster stat and spell power boosting stat.

As far as the whole...

"People should stop spreading FALSE INFORMATION.

On live, you can get 100 Spell power from enhancements. End of the story.
On lama, you can get up to 56 from Enhancements with well 73 (SEVENTY THREE) points in the class trees and ONLY 7 IN THE RACIAL ONE.

Spellcraft adds a max of 43 if you really are maxing Int after CHA and CON for a total of 99 (NINETY NINE) Spell power.

100 > 99, that in most cases will be ~90 (only a crazy would spend all the 80 points in the Class trees).

100 > 90.


Spellcraft is just a stupid skill designed to nerf the Cha-based classes like Sorcerers. So it won't be, it won't result, it IS NOT A PLUS FROM LIVE."

...that started this line of discussion, it's clearly possible to exceed the spell power we have on live with spellcraft whether it's INT or not. 50 from the sorc tree, 30 from the innates, 32 from the skill before INT bonus. An air savant on live with 100 spell power in electric and 100 spell power in cold shows up on lamma with 112+ electric and 102+ cold spell power. The argument has nothing to do with a nerf; it has to do with a buff to 2 other classes. That's why when it does hit live isn't relevant; the discussion is on the difference INT makes to the skill when it is active. ;)

If spellcraft doesn't go live and this system does as is it'll suck being a sorc, other classes will need to adjust but will be fine. It's also an important distinction that spell power is acquired more slowly on the new system on lamma compared to live, even if the potential does exist to exceed current spell power totals.

Talan
05-03-2013, 01:29 AM
I agree that it needs to work from primary casting stat or highest relevant stat for multi classes.

Mark2422
05-03-2013, 02:52 AM
Without having read the Dev post about Spellcraft not going live at the same time as the new system, did they specifically say it would go live AFTER the new enhancement system?

We already know that they are not planning on the new system being ready for the new expansion this summer. So I think it is highly possible that Spellcraft may even hit live before the new system. I am not sure why it would be longer unless they want to see how things settle down with the new system before they introduce Spellcraft. And if that is the case then they may use Spellcraft or a skill like it, to plug any gaping wholes the new system might bring. Aka Sorcs being on -1,000,000 spell power...

Wizza
05-03-2013, 04:24 AM
That's still pretty pointless in a discussion on how the skill actually works. I also doubt we'll be waiting for 2 years to implement the skill. Any delays creating a nerf just gets back to my point that the skills carry too much spell power while the enhancements don't carry enough.


I'll just quote this for semplicity.

The quote is exactly my point. Spellcraft, as of now, is too much important for every class to make it just INT based. The enhancements should be our primary concern regarding Spellpower. Make the ENH gives us EXACTLY THE SAME spell power that we have on Live now and then I couldn't care less if Spellcraft was based on it.

Right now, I NEED Spellcraft to reach the spellpower that I have on Live (let's remember that I made a mistake in my numbers, sorcerers are getting 120 Spell power including capstone, not 100). Fix this and then you can make spellcraft based on DEX as far as I care.

Aashrym
05-03-2013, 12:43 PM
Without having read the Dev post about Spellcraft not going live at the same time as the new system, did they specifically say it would go live AFTER the new enhancement system?

We already know that they are not planning on the new system being ready for the new expansion this summer. So I think it is highly possible that Spellcraft may even hit live before the new system. I am not sure why it would be longer unless they want to see how things settle down with the new system before they introduce Spellcraft. And if that is the case then they may use Spellcraft or a skill like it, to plug any gaping wholes the new system might bring. Aka Sorcs being on -1,000,000 spell power...

This is from the release notes. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/376774-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-4-11-2013%29



Spellcraft

While this is still currently in the design/development stage, you may notice the pre-alpha version of this new feature appearing in the character sheets and character creation process. Spellcraft will be a new skill, along with spellpower changes to Heal, Repair, and Perform. We're adding Spellcraft as another source of spellpower, and another option for building during character creation and advancement. Some casting classes have traditionally had less meaningful choices when taking skills.

Spellcraft is being previewed with the current Lamannia builds but is not intended for release with the next patch/update. Please feel free to enjoy this very early look at the new skill.



Key Changes

Your Heal skill total modifier is added to your Positive and Negative Spellpower.
Your Repair skill total modifier is added to your Repair and Rust Spellpower.
Your Perform skill total modifier is added to your Sonic Spellpower.
Spellcraft is a new Intelligence based skill. Your Spellcraft total modifier is added to every other type of Spellpower (everything except Positive, Negative, Repair, Rust, and Sonic).
Spellcraft is a class skill for these classes: Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Wizard.
Spellcraft is a trainable cross-class skill for other classes (similar to skills such as Balance).

I don't think it's actually clear the spellcraft and the other skill changes are part of the enhancement changes in the first place. U18 is scheduled to hit Lamma 5/06 and is not the new expansion yet either. I read the release notes as stating that spellcraft isn't releasing with U18 and I don't believe the enhancement changes are either.

EDIT: Quote on U18 for 5/06 if anyone hasn't seen it.


Hello!

Lamannia will be coming down tomorrow (Friday, May 3) from 8am to 10am EST (GMT -4) for some Maintenance. This downtime will not bring new content to Lamannia.

Next Monday (May 6), Lamannia will have another Update. (Downtime from 10am to 2pm EST (GMT -4).) Monday's Update will bring new fun things to Lamannia (Update 18 quests). We will be removing the New Enhancements and going back to the current Live version of Enhancements. Because this transition can cause issues, we will also have a Character Wipe at this time.

Smiles,
Squeak

Mark2422
05-04-2013, 03:46 AM
This is from the release notes. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/376774-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-4-11-2013%29



I don't think it's actually clear the spellcraft and the other skill changes are part of the enhancement changes in the first place. U18 is scheduled to hit Lamma 5/06 and is not the new expansion yet either. I read the release notes as stating that spellcraft isn't releasing with U18 and I don't believe the enhancement changes are either.

EDIT: Quote on U18 for 5/06 if anyone hasn't seen it.

Thanks for that.

So where has this notion come from that Spellcraft will not be released with the new enhancement tree's? I thought it had already been made clear that the new Enhancement system would not be in the next patch and I think not even in time for the expansion. From what i read there it looks to me like spellcraft will be going live at the same time, as it is at the same stage in testing. Unless it has been stated somewhere else that it would not...

Wizza
05-04-2013, 04:08 AM
Thanks for that.

So where has this notion come from that Spellcraft will not be released with the new enhancement tree's? I thought it had already been made clear that the new Enhancement system would not be in the next patch and I think not even in time for the expansion. From what i read there it looks to me like spellcraft will be going live at the same time, as it is at the same stage in testing. Unless it has been stated somewhere else that it would not...

It was said in a Dev chat in game.

~Sorcier
05-10-2013, 02:48 PM
Intellect represents your knowledge of the arcane. Which is why wizards and sorcerers have different primary ability scores. Making a skill that is based on arcane study is perfectly logical. However, I also agree that Spellcraft could simply come with the passive arcane feat.

To all the people complaining about how broken they are going to be without this new skill, I would like to know HOW they will be broken. It seems that the only real complaint is that Spellcraft is going to be based on Int. Why are you complaining instead of rolling Int; what other ability score is so darn important that you can not exchange for more spellpower?
The crux is that you complainers want your cake and eat it. You are not willing to trade all those points in Str or Dex for more spellpower. Or you are a first-lifer and have never ate a few tomes, and can not afford to Lesser Reincarnate. Assuming you are an arcane caster, I am sure divines actually have a more legitimate reason to object.
You should be complaining about the new savant line not being powerful enough, if you are really threatened about how your character will perform.

Hathorian
06-07-2013, 10:26 AM
Spellcraft providing spell power and having only INT as a primary stat is ill conceived and ill thought out. I appreciate that we want to change skills to be worthwhile for casters, but this type of change would really muddy the water between Wizards and Sorcs. Why give +20 more spell power to Wizards over Sorcs?

Also, off topic a little, but since we are going to level 28 soon casters really need new, higher level, spells with higher maximum caster levels and ways to further (significantly) increase MCL and DCs for existing spells. A 28 quest on elite is level 30. How ludicrous is it for someone to be casting spells with maximum caster levels of 5,10,15 (there are only a few MCL level 20 spells) against level 30 monsters? DCs aren't going up at the same rate monster levels and saving throws are going up.

Hathorian
06-07-2013, 10:32 AM
Intellect represents your knowledge of the arcane. Which is why wizards and sorcerers have different primary ability scores. Making a skill that is based on arcane study is perfectly logical. However, I also agree that Spellcraft could simply come with the passive arcane feat.

To all the people complaining about how broken they are going to be without this new skill, I would like to know HOW they will be broken. It seems that the only real complaint is that Spellcraft is going to be based on Int. Why are you complaining instead of rolling Int; what other ability score is so darn important that you can not exchange for more spellpower?
The crux is that you complainers want your cake and eat it. You are not willing to trade all those points in Str or Dex for more spellpower. Or you are a first-lifer and have never ate a few tomes, and can not afford to Lesser Reincarnate. Assuming you are an arcane caster, I am sure divines actually have a more legitimate reason to object.
You should be complaining about the new savant line not being powerful enough, if you are really threatened about how your character will perform.

Yes, casters have obviously been and are continuing to be nerfed on an ongoing basis. So you are saying a Sorc should take the extra 4 ability points they would normally put on STR or DEX into INT so they can get an extra 2 spell power? Right. Wizards can easily get a standing +20-25 INT modifier. I'd like to see your build that get a Sorc INT modifier anywhere close to that.

The question I have for you is why should DDO create a skill that provides far more nuking spell power to Wizards than Sorcs?

Aashrym
06-08-2013, 01:15 AM
Yes, casters have obviously been and are continuing to be nerfed on an ongoing basis. So you are saying a Sorc should take the extra 4 ability points they would normally put on STR or DEX into INT so they can get an extra 2 spell power? Right. Wizards can easily get a standing +20-25 INT modifier. I'd like to see your build that get a Sorc INT modifier anywhere close to that.

The question I have for you is why should DDO create a skill that provides far more nuking spell power to Wizards than Sorcs?

I would absolutely spend stat points in INT over STR or DEX if I needed it to simply add the skills for the benefit. STR and DEX aren't doing me much good on a sorc anyway. CHA and CON ftw.

The "far more nuking spell power" should end up 20ish based on INT score, maybe, and is easily correctable in a variety of ways. I'm looking forward to the next preview now. :)

Edit: using your numbers it's only 10-12 more spell power.

soulaeon
06-08-2013, 01:04 PM
Yes, casters have obviously been and are continuing to be nerfed on an ongoing basis. So you are saying a Sorc should take the extra 4 ability points they would normally put on STR or DEX into INT so they can get an extra 2 spell power? Right. Wizards can easily get a standing +20-25 INT modifier. I'd like to see your build that get a Sorc INT modifier anywhere close to that.

The question I have for you is why should DDO create a skill that provides far more nuking spell power to Wizards than Sorcs?
Hi, it's me.

I can not directly address your question, because I have not seen the skill preview. How does +20 modifier translate to spellpower?
Also, your response does not really get to the heart of the matter of what I was saying in the end. It seems like the objection you have is more to do with a class balance issue, than a new skill issue. Why are you not calling for nerfs to wizards' damage, or calling for sorcerers' damage to be appropriately higher? In essence, sorcerers should have the advantage in the over-all amount of damage which is what should be the focus; a new skill just seems like something nice they can have to compliment their arsenal.
To your other question, if I only changed some gear slotting and not my base ability scores, I could get at least 20 Int. So possibly 24 if I changed some ability scores OR ate a +5 tome for at least one other stat. Personally, this would not be too inconvenient because I have +4 tomes on almost everything, and I dont need to have Str at all to play how I want. But again, if 24 translated to very little compared to an Int-based character, that would still be a class balancing issue not a new-skill-issue.

As far as class balancing, my suggestion is to change the critical multipliers for sorcerers and wizards or significantly raise them for sorcerers. Wizards' effectiveness should be based on their spell DC and the variety of spells they can learn, so nerfing their critical or over-all damage would solve this issue that has little to do with the addition of a new skill.

On a related issue, why is no one complaining that the new spellpower addition to the Heal skill is "ill conceived" because it's based on wisdom? Those of us that are not plugged into Heal scrolls and prefer something like Rejuvenation would find this to be a nice addition as well.


I would absolutely spend stat points in INT over STR or DEX if I needed it to simply add the skills for the benefit. STR and DEX aren't doing me much good on a sorc anyway. CHA and CON ftw.

The "far more nuking spell power" should end up 20ish based on INT score, maybe, and is easily correctable in a variety of ways. I'm looking forward to the next preview now.
^ this.

Nadion
06-09-2013, 10:34 AM
Logically Spellcraft being related in Int makes sense, as spellcraft is the skill of understanding and applying magical theory to improve ones casting which fits in with being Int based. Practically however its a nerf to non Int based casters, which is particularly galling in the case of Sorcs and FvS, classes whose casting revolve around nuking, and lorewise are said to cast intuitively.

The solutions put forward so far are that the higher of INT/WIS/CHR be counted towards spellcraft instead of just INT, or that the Spellcraft be dropped as a skill and casters all get +1 spellpower per level from their Arcane Lore or equivalent feat. I think the latter is a straight example of the way many just want to be given free stuff, and never have to make actual tradeoffs in how they build their character. The former combines an element of this with a desire to relate Spellcraft to stats that don't make sense for it.

My suggestion is that Sorcs and FvS be granted a free feat a character creation that adds their charisma modifier to their spellpower in addition to any spellpower they get from INT / ranks in spellcraft.

This would put Sorcs/FvS on an even footing with Wizards for free, with the option to push their spellpower even higher by finding space in their build for more INT / ranks in spellcraft. The same would apply for the FvS. Additionally people playing an FvS would now have a real choice between pushing Charisma or Wisdom as their main stat. At the moment Charisma only gives a few extra spellpoints (which the SP rich FvS can make do without), whereas Wisdom gives DCs, and in the new system higher positive spellpower (via heal skill) to boot making Wisdom the obvious choice for a caster FvS (In contrast to PnP where the value of higher DCs must be carefully weighed against having more spells per day). My suggestion would move this more towards a competitive choice.

For Clerics/Druids i would suggest adding an enhancement to whichever tree is most focused on offensive casting which lets them use their wisdom modifier for their spellcraft stat.

Paladins should probably get an enhancement adding their Charisma modifier to their positive energy spellpower.

Amundir
06-09-2013, 10:54 AM
Mmm, so much complaining. Why not make it real simple and make Spellcraft not based on any stat and you only get bonuses for any ranks you put into it. Yeah, equality!

soulaeon
06-10-2013, 01:47 PM
Logically Spellcraft being related in Int makes sense, as spellcraft is the skill of understanding and applying magical theory to improve ones casting which fits in with being Int based. Practically however its a nerf to non Int based casters, which is particularly galling in the case of Sorcs and FvS, classes whose casting revolve around nuking, and lorewise are said to cast intuitively.
.
A "nerf" is something the developers to do target your character. A bonus is something they add to the game that your character is under no obligation to take, and will not effect your character at all otherwise. Now that we got that out of the way...
Calling the addition of a new skill a "nerf" to non Int classes is like saying the UMD skill is a nerf to non Cha characters. Would you agree? And yet, everyone can spend points into this skill, and everyone can acquire more Cha if they need to. There's always a way to get what you want.
So, how is this new skill going to impair your gaming experience? I assume you will not be taking it.

Dawnsfire
06-10-2013, 02:58 PM
I hate to hop in here but I have a question. I have followed the discussions and arguments about this so far. It has lead me to wonder:

Have the Devs ever explained why it is being done this way?

Are they meaning to nerf Sorcs?

Is it a way to buff Wizards since spell DC in GiantHold ( and probably the expansion) is so off kilter?

Did one of your Sorcs kill a Dev's Wizard in the PvP pits one day?

Just curious. . .

soulaeon
06-12-2013, 02:22 PM
I hate to hop in here but I have a question. I have followed the discussions and arguments about this so far. It has lead me to wonder:

Have the Devs ever explained why it is being done this way?

Are they meaning to nerf Sorcs?

Is it a way to buff Wizards since spell DC in GiantHold ( and probably the expansion) is so off kilter?

Did one of your Sorcs kill a Dev's Wizard in the PvP pits one day?

Just curious. . .
What you are saying, is that this new skill would give you more spellpower if you had more points in Int and spent skill points there. But you do not want to do any of those things, and yet wizards will get more spellpower by not doing anything at all. So you believe that your character is being subjugated due to the fact that you do not like it?
I am also curious.

Why would are people reading into this new skill as a personal affront, rather than complaining about actual class changes that will be made? As I am sure some are, already.

mezzorco
06-20-2013, 10:28 AM
(troll mode)
So you're complaining about Spellcraft being int based.
Let me know, how many skill points does, say, a sorcerer have? 2 plus int.
And how much starting int? Probably 10 for concentration and UMD, or 12 for con, UMD and diplo, or more but...
The point is, it's a new skill and you're tight on skill points because of a careful planning on your build.
So what a sorcerer can do? Simple, he raises his intelligence by 2, gaining another point in spellcraft thanks to the higher mod.
Don't you see the profit?
(/troll mode)

Being serious, the spellcraft skill should be int based, but it's unfair as it's planned.
Maybe they could simply give us +1 saves against spells for every 5 points spent in spellcraft (much like in Neverwinter Nights 2), making it valuable for non casters, too.
They should do the same for tumble, giving us +1 ac for every 10 points spent (again, like in nwn2).

soulaeon
06-21-2013, 08:16 AM
Being serious, the spellcraft skill should be int based, but it's unfair as it's planned.
Maybe they could simply give us +1 saves against spells for every 5 points spent in spellcraft (much like in Neverwinter Nights 2), making it valuable for non casters, too.
They should do the same for tumble, giving us +1 ac for every 10 points spent (again, like in nwn2).
It would make sense that knowledge of the arcane automatically includes protection against it to some degree, so that is a good idea. This would either have to be a circumstance bonus or a new source-type bonus. Or rather than saves, why not spell resistance?
Tumble also makes sense, but consider that it is based on an ability score that already adds to armor class. I could go either way on that. AC is already mostly useless unless you have a lot, and I would hate to encourage the developers to continue giving us crappy little AC boosts that do nothing after level 18. Perhaps dodge chance, instead.

mezzorco
06-21-2013, 10:59 AM
It would make sense that knowledge of the arcane automatically includes protection against it to some degree, so that is a good idea. This would either have to be a circumstance bonus or a new source-type bonus. Or rather than saves, why not spell resistance?
Tumble also makes sense, but consider that it is based on an ability score that already adds to armor class. I could go either way on that. AC is already mostly useless unless you have a lot, and I would hate to encourage the developers to continue giving us crappy little AC boosts that do nothing after level 18. Perhaps dodge chance, instead.

Sure thing, in this game 2 ac is nothing, while +4 saves would be too much (if so they could give +1 per 10 points spent instead).
NwN2 was differently balanced, but in this case ddo devs could take inspiration from it.
Your idea of SR is really good, but what about drows and monks already having it?
As for tumble, it wouldn't count on what ability it's based on, i'm speaking about points spent (pretty much like perform). It would make a non-overpowered passive use of the skill. :)
Dodge chance is also really viable, your ideas are complementary with mines :D

Failedlegend
07-06-2013, 09:17 AM
I'd say either make concentration increase Universal Spellpower or increase the amount of spellpower that the Caster trees grant...either way remove spellcraft and return perform, heal and repair to the way they were before...or better yet actually use one of the several amazing suggestion for how to improve heal and repair to be useful (see: NOT mandatory)

Alternatively a casters main stat could increase spellpower (ie. A Sorc with 31 Cha would get an Increase of 31 Universal Spellpower)

Flavilandile
07-07-2013, 03:37 AM
Why for the love of cheese make this an INT based skill?

[...]

In the new enhancement process you have multi-choice options already implemented so why not use this mechanic to enable the player to decide which stat they want buffing their spell power? This gives multi-class characters the freedom they want to push their spell power however they wish.


Because some Dev in Charge of the Enhancement Crash wanted us ( those that don't play wizards ) to make Tough Choices, because he loves Tough Choices.
But as said dev probably don't play the game without God Mode On he had no idea of what he was doing, and anyway he wants to have his child ( even if it's a real abortion ) in game as he made it.

RD2play
07-08-2013, 06:45 AM
They can add a feat like "insightfull reflexes" to use cha for spellcraft

mezzorco
07-08-2013, 07:41 AM
They can add a feat like "insightfull reflexes" to use cha for spellcraft
A better way would be to include it into "force of personality", a feat that sorcerers are more likely to pick.

Failedlegend
07-08-2013, 11:43 AM
They can add a feat like "insightful reflexes" to use cha for spellcraft

Hah that's rich force a new mandatory skill (or 2 - repair) on to a skill starved class and THAN force them to take a feat to not make it a nightmare to work...again on a feat starved class.

OR we could try to think of altenative ways to actually make this not a terrible nightmare for the player base such as making concentration (a skill 99% of casters already take) increase Universal Spellpower or increase the amount of spellpower that the Caster trees grant...either way remove spellcraft and return perform, heal and repair to the way they were before...or better yet actually use one of the several amazing suggestion for how to improve heal and repair to be useful (see: NOT mandatory)

Alternatively (my personal favorite) a casters main stat could increase spellpower (ie. A Sorc with 31 Cha would get an Increase of 31 Universal Spellpower)

maddong
07-08-2013, 07:25 PM
I would much prefer spellcraft to be int wis cha and repair be int cha highest. It definitely seems more fair.

Dreppo
07-08-2013, 08:15 PM
I would much prefer spellcraft to be int wis cha and repair be int cha highest. It definitely seems more fair.

It's a fundamental property of skills that each one is associated with one single ability score that best matches it. It may not be a perfect match, but it's deemed the best match. Thematically INT is the best match because spellcraft represents knowledge of how spells work obtained through careful study and research. Sorcs gain their spellcasting prowess through innate ability and intuition, not through careful study.

Spellcraft is an INT-based still in PnP D&D, so that's another short answer for why it's an INT-based skill in DDO.

Fairness is not really a consideration here. What you're really saying is you could make a more powerful build if you could apply your CHA modifier to it, because as a Sorc you are pumping CHA. So? Wizards could equally complain that they aren't able to max out UMD as easily as Sorcs can. Heck, why is spot a WIS skill, it would be far more convenient for rogues if they could pump INT and have it apply to spot/search/disable. I bet monks would prefer that concentration operate off of WIS instead of CON. Etc. Well, stuff doesn't always work a certain way just because it is best from a powergaming perspective.

Failedlegend
07-10-2013, 11:37 AM
It's a fundamental property of skills that each one is associated with one single ability score that best matches it. It may not be a perfect match, but it's deemed the best match. Thematically INT is the best match because spellcraft represents knowledge of how spells work obtained through careful study and research. Sorcs gain their spellcasting prowess through innate ability and intuition, not through careful study.

Spellcraft is an INT-based still in PnP D&D, so that's another short answer for why it's an INT-based skill in DDO.

Fairness is not really a consideration here. What you're really saying is you could make a more powerful build if you could apply your CHA modifier to it, because as a Sorc you are pumping CHA. So? Wizards could equally complain that they aren't able to max out UMD as easily as Sorcs can. Heck, why is spot a WIS skill, it would be far more convenient for rogues if they could pump INT and have it apply to spot/search/disable. I bet monks would prefer that concentration operate off of WIS instead of CON. Etc. Well, stuff doesn't always work a certain way just because it is best from a powergaming perspective.

Well imo it makes no bloody sense that UMD is Charisma your not bluffing or using diplomacy on the item...your messing with an item that your class/race has no experience with and the UMD roll is to calaculate you ability to quickly figure out how to use that...that's definately Int if not Wis.

Also it being Int in PnP is irrelevant because the Lammania Spellcraft is nothing like PnP spellcraftand either way it should be removed...skill poi9nts are a valuable resource rthat also allow for some unique builds forcing some combination of Spellcraft, Heal, Repair and Perform on ANY spellcaster is going to limti build variety immensely and has absolutely NO positives...Remove spellcraft, than take the amazing ideas for Heal and Repair that the community have suggested that would make them useful (see NOT mandatory) and apply them instead of the spellpower boosts. After that increase the amount of spellpower tree's naturally grant to compensate.

soulaeon
07-10-2013, 12:23 PM
Well imo it makes no bloody sense that UMD is Charisma your not bluffing or using diplomacy on the item...your messing with an item that your class/race has no experience with and the UMD roll is to calaculate you ability to quickly figure out how to use that...that's definately Int if not Wis.
A long way back, someone said it does not make sense that Don Juan could understand how to use a magical item better than Albert Einstein. This would be the strongest case for a change to UMD.
However, this does not apply to spellcraft because Int, as mentioned, represents knowledge and study. And therefore increased spellpower due to those things. This is probably one of the most logical skills in the game (pun!), and we should be glad for it instead of complaining.
I have yet to see how the addition to this skill is in any way unfair to anyone because it is available to anyone. If one wants a higher skill rating, then they need to make some careful choices and planning.

Failedlegend
07-10-2013, 01:02 PM
I have yet to see how the addition to this skill is in any way unfair to anyone because it is available to anyone. If one wants a higher skill rating, then they need to make some careful choices and planning.

It's a bad idea because it's MANDATORY (anything mandatory is bad...everything should be a choice) and many classes don't have the extra skill points. Also the changes effect Heal, Repair and Perform as well which are crossclass for many classes that would want them (ie. Bard & Palemasters need heal) it also makes WF Sorcs & Wizards even more OP since repair is a class skill.

Spellcraft and the new effects of heal, perform and repair should either all be rolled into Concentration or spellcasters "Caster Stat" could add spellpower instead (ie. A Wizard with 42 Int would get 42 USP, or a Sorc with 13 Cha would get 13 USP...possible make 1/2 or 2/3 caster stat if 1:1 is too much) this makes alot more sense and doesn't favor Wizards & Arties.

Atremus
07-10-2013, 01:37 PM
I have yet to see how the addition to this skill is in any way unfair to anyone because it is available to anyone. If one wants a higher skill rating, then they need to make some careful choices and planning.

Skills per level:

Cleric = 2 + Int
Druid = 4 + Int
FvS = 2 + Int
Paladin = 2 + Int
Ranger = 6 + Int
Sorc = 2 + Int

Of these, the Divines need Concentration, Heal, Spell craft, UMD and maybe some Balance, 1 rank of Tumble. That's 4 skills mandatory on a Divine. Where do you propose people take their build points from? CON, STR, WIS, and CHA are all primary stats. Now so is INT. This is punishment to those that want to be effective.

Paladins and Rangers will need Heal to make up for the lost Devotion lines. Have you ever met a Paladin that had spare build points? Rangers Might be OK

The Sorc.... The poor Sorc...

Personally I will invest in Spellcraft on my FVS and forget about Healing. Good luck in all those raids waiting on nanny's. Maybe the game will start becoming more self sufficient because I don't see why folks will want to pump up a non primary stat just to have Healing power (or repair)

Failedlegend
07-10-2013, 02:25 PM
Actually now that I think about it I REALLY like the idea of having your Caster Stat boost your USP not only does it make total sense and favors no caster over another it would also be a nice oppuruntiy for some flavour.

Make it a feat auto-granted at level one for any blue bar...Sorcs - Dragon-Blooded (Cha to USP), Wizard - Studious (Int to USP), Cleric - Pious (Wisdom to USP), Druids/Rangers - One With Nature (Wisdom to USP), FvS/Paladin - Weapon of the Gods (Cha to USP), Arties - Tinker (Int to USP), Bards get Rock and Roll (Cha to USP - name subject to change due to being horrible)

Now that means Spellcraft is no longer needed and Heal/Repair are useless again but there's plenty of great player suggestions on how to make those two skills very useful (see: NOT mandatory) I suggest looking those up and I'll try to find a few to post here myself

Chette
07-12-2013, 09:30 AM
I have yet to see how the addition to this skill is in any way unfair to anyone because it is available to anyone. If one wants a higher skill rating, then they need to make some careful choices and planning.

When a certain skill or ability is much more easily available to one class than another, it is an indirect nerf to that other class. I do not know why people are unable to grasp this very simply concept. When class A is forced to make a "tough decision" as some people love to put it, yet class B is not forced to make that same decision, what that really means is that in order for A to maintain the same relative balance that they previously had with class B in this area, they need to give up something else, but class B does not. That means their relative balance with class B has gone down. That is called a relative/indirect nerf.

You can think of it as basic economics. You might say, if you give my neighbour $1000 but you don't give me $1000, well, not that big of a deal. But if you were to give everybody in the country $1000, but not you, well, suddenly the rest of the country has more purchasing power than you do. The price of goods and services goes up, and suddenly you can't purchase as much with your income. Your income hasn't gone down, but relative to everybody else it has.

Changes like this are like inflation, and when it's not applied equally to everybody you get a relative/indirect nerf.

Increasing the damage output of a wizard and not giving sorcerers the same ability (or forcing them to reduce their effectiveness elsewhere in order to maintain their damage output) is a nerf to sorcerers. It increases the wizard vs sorcerer power ratio and throws off class balance. In order for this change to go forward there should be some justification for WHY the wizard vs sorcerer power ratio needs to go up (e.g. there needs to be some rationale for why the wizard vs sorcerer power ratio is too low) otherwise it is a poor change that negatively effects class balance.

Missing_Minds
07-12-2013, 10:00 AM
A long way back, someone said it does not make sense that Don Juan could understand how to use a magical item better than Albert Einstein.
Why not? Don Juan uses his force of personality to get what he wanted. Einstein used math/logic.

Magic is NOT logical as it breaks/rewrites the known laws of physics.

Now the trade off is that wizards book study to figure these things out, and through logic of deduction and practice of trial and error figure it out. But then they are limited to what they know. (spells per day must be memorized.) This does not allow the ablity to change things up on the fly.

Sorcs have the innate connection to feel their way though to get to the same conclusions. Though this they can change things around on the fly.

So who can deal with an unknown object better? Given enough time? I bet that the wizard probably could. But a UMD check is done in seconds typically. This requires more "feeling" than logic which points back to sorcs and charisma.

Heck, look at Mythbusters. You've got one that is very methodical and meticulus, and the other is verfy fly by wire. who gets a result faster typically? fly by wire red head (I forget his name.)
Time matters giving more weight to charisma for UMD in my opinion. But back on topic.


--------------

Given how this game is, and how the intention of spellpower is different from the PnP skill, why not make it Con based (just like concentration is. Better focus = a better strike) such that it would effect everyone in an equal manner.
Either that or remove any ablity stat from it and make everyone utterly dependent upon the rank in it and equal in power.

soulaeon
07-12-2013, 02:44 PM
It's a bad idea because it's MANDATORY (anything mandatory is bad...everything should be a choice) and many classes don't have the extra skill points. Also the changes effect Heal, Repair and Perform as well which are crossclass for many classes that would want them (ie. Bard & Palemasters need heal) it also makes WF Sorcs & Wizards even more OP since repair is a class skill.

Spellcraft and the new effects of heal, perform and repair should either all be rolled into Concentration or spellcasters "Caster Stat" could add spellpower instead (ie. A Wizard with 42 Int would get 42 USP, or a Sorc with 13 Cha would get 13 USP...possible make 1/2 or 2/3 caster stat if 1:1 is too much) this makes alot more sense and doesn't favor Wizards & Arties.
Please, explain to me why this is "mandatory". If I am missing something, then I would like to know because I dont use the Lamania client. Why is this skill mandatory, and not anything else like Swim or Open Lock?
Further, why do you think can not just invest more points in intellect and intellect items, when every other class who might also enjoy something like UMD would have to invest the same in charisma? By this logic, you are saying EVERY class is nerfed because some other is unable to acquire a specific stat-based skill.
Please, before you say "sorcerers are getting less spellpower than live," then ask yourself why this has anything to do with a new skill and not the new enhancement/class changes.

soulaeon
07-12-2013, 02:49 PM
When a certain skill or ability is much more easily available to one class than another, it is an indirect nerf to that other class. I do not know why people are unable to grasp this very simply concept. When class A is forced to make a "tough decision" as some people love to put it, yet class B is not forced to make that same decision, what that really means is that in order for A to maintain the same relative balance that they previously had with class B in this area, they need to give up something else, but class B does not. That means their relative balance with class B has gone down. That is called a relative/indirect nerf.


While in the context of this game, and not real life, then please explain why is it some classes can learn spells while others can not. You just said that a trade-off is a nerf to every class, then by your own reasoning classes who need to multiclass to learn spells are also nerfed and should be able to cast spells without making a trade-off.
Also, I notice that my own points are not really challenged by some of these responses. How does the addition of this skill impact your playing style, and why should you be exempt from making tough decisions when building a character based on specific expectations?

soulaeon
07-12-2013, 02:53 PM
Skills per level:

Cleric = 2 + Int
Druid = 4 + Int
FvS = 2 + Int
Paladin = 2 + Int
Ranger = 6 + Int
Sorc = 2 + Int

Of these, the Divines need Concentration, Heal, Spell craft, UMD and maybe some Balance, 1 rank of Tumble. That's 4 skills mandatory on a Divine. Where do you propose people take their build points from? CON, STR, WIS, and CHA are all primary stats. Now so is INT. This is punishment to those that want to be effective.

Paladins and Rangers will need Heal to make up for the lost Devotion lines. Have you ever met a Paladin that had spare build points? Rangers Might be OK

The Sorc.... The poor Sorc...

Personally I will invest in Spellcraft on my FVS and forget about Healing. Good luck in all those raids waiting on nanny's. Maybe the game will start becoming more self sufficient because I don't see why folks will want to pump up a non primary stat just to have Healing power (or repair)
Sorry, but where in there does it say sorcerers can not pick up more intellect to get more skill points? I see what you are saying, but I do not see your point.
IF spellcraft is mandatory in the same way concentration is, then obviously less experienced characters (28 point builds and non-TR builds) would have more of a problem. That would be a valid observation, but one SHOULD expect less experienced characters to be less powerful.

Dilbon
07-12-2013, 03:56 PM
Please, explain to me why this is "mandatory".

23 spell power is serious business. For powergamers every percent counts and a character is gimped if it isn't pumped to the max.

Atremus
07-12-2013, 08:27 PM
Sorry, but where in there does it say sorcerers can not pick up more intellect to get more skill points? I see what you are saying, but I do not see your point.
IF spellcraft is mandatory in the same way concentration is, then obviously less experienced characters (28 point builds and non-TR builds) would have more of a problem. That would be a valid observation, but one SHOULD expect less experienced characters to be less powerful.

The loss of toughness enhancments now puts more emphasis on CON for low HP classes. Sorcs will max Charasima put at least 2 or 4 points into Stremgth and the rest into CON. No room for Intelligence. You can take those build points from Strength for INT but then you are always burdened. Lower CON or Lower CHA for a Sorc to choose from. Assumingmthey are a WF Sorc, they will want Repair and Spellcraft. So they need 4 build points from somewhere. This is the problem, there are not enough build points available on non-INT based classes to pick up the new skills. Having the highest possible spell power inst min / maxing. It is being efficient in the game.

Aashrym
07-12-2013, 10:33 PM
The loss of toughness enhancments now puts more emphasis on CON for low HP classes. Sorcs will max Charasima put at least 2 or 4 points into Stremgth and the rest into CON. No room for Intelligence. You can take those build points from Strength for INT but then you are always burdened. Lower CON or Lower CHA for a Sorc to choose from. Assumingmthey are a WF Sorc, they will want Repair and Spellcraft. So they need 4 build points from somewhere. This is the problem, there are not enough build points available on non-INT based classes to pick up the new skills. Having the highest possible spell power inst min / maxing. It is being efficient in the game.

I don't see any reason to focus more on CON now that toughness enhancements are not an issues because the bonus hit points are supposed to be going straight to the class without spending the enhancement points or feat requirement. That means there is no more incentive for higher CON than there was before the changes.

Quite honestly, if I needed to start with a 16 CON instead of an 18 CON I could accept losing 28 hit points at level cap in order to add 3 "must have" skills if I felt they are really "must have".

I think the build points is valid for first life characters but I don't think the actual difference in spell power is that critical while they start their TR process for past lives and more build points. If I'm a WF sorc on a 28 point build 16 CHA only leaves me 12 stat points anyway, and 6 of those will put me at a 16 CON leaving 6 for INT to make it work so it's not that hard to find some points for INT.

Atremus
07-13-2013, 08:14 AM
How much equipment will you carry when you have a 8 STR?

Dilbon
07-13-2013, 09:27 AM
How much equipment will you carry when you have a 8 STR?

That's only an issue in the beginning. After acquiring a STR tome and some STR item any points in strength are wasted.

Tolchuck
07-13-2013, 04:36 PM
I'm not sure if this is the best place for my post, hopefully it's not too off topic, but as this is the only post looking at the new caster skills...So my issue with the spell craft/repair/heal/perform change to make them control spell power is that 1) these aren't class skills for all classes. Ie for palemasters to get the most out of their spells they have to take a non class skill to sort of raise their spell damage on their negative energy spells and burn up a lot of skill points. IF they are going this route they need to make all of them non class specific class, otherwise it takes double the amount of skill points just to get half the spell power out of this. 2) they are all stat specific making it harder for caster classes to take the ones that would best match them (a sorc can't take spell crafter easily, a wiz can't take heal, and NO ONE but a bard can take perform really). 3) this will make multiclassing incredibly hard to do as you'll NEVER have enough skill points to make this work.

While the new enhancement system is interesting, changing it to this degree will cause trouble with older players who play casters because it will make our old builds impossible to do. opposed to doing this why not create a general class enhancement chain dealing only with spell power. this way you can pick with type you want to increase and not have to worry about adding new skills in.
I understand the desire to put non useful skills to work but this is not the way to go about it. all this is going to do is alienate caster classes. a suggestion to make heal and repair more useful is to have it increase the efficacy of potions, scrolls, and wands of that nature when your using it on others. also you can consider having repair and heal increase heal amp of pots used on yourself . and you really don't need to change perform...if your playing a bard you're TAKING perform because you have to (not to mention perform can't be considered a useless skill that no one takes because NO OTHER CLASS needs perform other then a bard)

soulaeon
07-13-2013, 05:30 PM
The loss of toughness enhancments now puts more emphasis on CON for low HP classes. Sorcs will max Charasima put at least 2 or 4 points into Stremgth and the rest into CON. No room for Intelligence. You can take those build points from Strength for INT but then you are always burdened. Lower CON or Lower CHA for a Sorc to choose from. Assumingmthey are a WF Sorc, they will want Repair and Spellcraft. So they need 4 build points from somewhere. This is the problem, there are not enough build points available on non-INT based classes to pick up the new skills. Having the highest possible spell power inst min / maxing. It is being efficient in the game.
That sounds like an issue if you're building maximum hit points. The only time I ever needed Toughness and any Toughness enhancements was when I was a wizard, not a sorcerer.
I roll 16 Con, and the rest is tomes and HP items which fit without a problem because we have more than enough slots. I even have room for damage reduction and physical resistance. The result is that those who need the most HP are the ones who die faster than I might. Obviously there are some situations where the most HP is the distinct advantage, but you need to consider what it is you are asking and why a trade-off is necessary in order for our class to be balanced.
You dont need strength at all. Not if you want to be a caster. Roll 8 or 10 and you will still have room for tomes and a +6 or +7 augment. The difference that +1 Str modifier would make to your damage rolls is inconsequential especially when you can just cast Tenser's Transformation.
It is understandable that you may have a build plan that involves what you consider to be either more survivability or the option to swing a weapon. The latter should be sacrificed if you want more powerful spells, and survival can happen by changing some play style or gears rather than depending on straight up health.

As to your comment about skill points, it occurs to me that we no longer need to rely on UMD by level 25 because all my Heal scrolls are over 100% by then without having the Cleric Dilettante feat. So that's just a suggestion as to how we can swing more points for Spellcraft.

Out of curiosity, how are you always burdened if you do not roll more than 8 Str? I have a tough time meeting even half my encumbrance limit.

And could someone PLEASE in the name of all that is holy post the spellpower to skills ratio from Spellcraft.
I'm looking at 22~24 total intellect without making any major changes.

soulaeon
07-13-2013, 05:41 PM
I'm not sure if this is the best place for my post, hopefully it's not too off topic, but as this is the only post looking at the new caster skills...So my issue with the spell craft/repair/heal/perform change to make them control spell power is that 1) these aren't class skills for all classes. Ie for palemasters to get the most out of their spells they have to take a non class skill to sort of raise their spell damage on their negative energy spells and burn up a lot of skill points. IF they are going this route they need to make all of them non class specific class, otherwise it takes double the amount of skill points just to get half the spell power out of this. 2) they are all stat specific making it harder for caster classes to take the ones that would best match them (a sorc can't take spell crafter easily, a wiz can't take heal, and NO ONE but a bard can take perform really). 3) this will make multiclassing incredibly hard to do as you'll NEVER have enough skill points to make this work.

While the new enhancement system is interesting, changing it to this degree will cause trouble with older players who play casters because it will make our old builds impossible to do. opposed to doing this why not create a general class enhancement chain dealing only with spell power. this way you can pick with type you want to increase and not have to worry about adding new skills in.
I understand the desire to put non useful skills to work but this is not the way to go about it. all this is going to do is alienate caster classes. a suggestion to make heal and repair more useful is to have it increase the efficacy of potions, scrolls, and wands of that nature when your using it on others. also you can consider having repair and heal increase heal amp of pots used on yourself . and you really don't need to change perform...if your playing a bard you're TAKING perform because you have to (not to mention perform can't be considered a useless skill that no one takes because NO OTHER CLASS needs perform other then a bard)
This was discussed in the Sorcerer Enhancements Discussion thread. I agree, we need less specialized enhancements and a full general enhancement tree, instead. This would actually solve many problems with meeting the same performance we can have on the live servers.

Chette
07-13-2013, 08:27 PM
While in the context of this game, and not real life, then please explain why is it some classes can learn spells while others can not. You just said that a trade-off is a nerf to every class, then by your own reasoning classes who need to multiclass to learn spells are also nerfed and should be able to cast spells without making a trade-off.

Wut??? This...this part of your post makes no sense at all, so I'm going to move on now.


Also, I notice that my own points are not really challenged by some of these responses. How does the addition of this skill impact your playing style, and why should you be exempt from making tough decisions when building a character based on specific expectations?

I think that the casting classes should be treated equally in this change unless some justification can be made as to why they should NOT be treated equally. If wizards are being exempt from making the "tough decision" then the other caster classes should be as well, otherwise some justification needs to be made for why.

You are the one supporting a change that treats one class differently from the others, and treats arcanes differently from divines by separating out positive spell power. SO, you should be the one making the justification for the change. Tell me, why do you think that wizards, and only wizards, should be exempt from this new decision? Why do you think that arcanes should be exempt from having to make an even tougher decision from divines?

Tolchuck
07-13-2013, 09:44 PM
This was discussed in the Sorcerer Enhancements Discussion thread. I agree, we need less specialized enhancements and a full general enhancement tree, instead. This would actually solve many problems with meeting the same performance we can have on the live servers.

Actually the specialized enhancements isn't an issue to me...it's the creation/alteration of skills for no real justifiable reason. I like having specialized enhancement trees for prestige classes because it can open up prestige classes a lil bit, i just believe it removes a lot of vital enhancements because they have no place to put them. i offered the creation of a general class enhancement tree as a means to putting non prestige related class feats (like spell power enhancements) into the new enhancement system.
Also i think some of the comments here are looking at skills from a wizard's standpoint. I play a wizzy as my main on live but i have toons from all the caster classes so i know that wizzies get way more skill points then say a sorc. i know it's been mentioned before in the post but it bears repeating. NOT ALL CLASSES have the skill points to burn. and when it costs you twice the amount of skill points for some of these skills then they still remain USELESS. for example...if i only have 1 skill point and the choice is b/t getting a point in concentration and .5 in spellcraft, i'm going with concentration. spell power means nothing if a sneeze distracts you>>

The point i was trying to make in my original post was that the creation of spellcraft (or changing spell power to use skills in general) is a pointless exercise. your not making the skills your changing anymore appealing. your creating a system that will inevitably fail because outside of wizard few caster classes have excessive skill points to spend. and they are all class specific and stat. specific skills that can take double the skill points just to get dps. if you want to create a new skill for casters then make spellcraft the skill needed to disarm spell traps and get rid of wards.

soulaeon
07-15-2013, 05:10 PM
Wut??? This...this part of your post makes no sense at all, so I'm going to move on now.



I think that the casting classes should be treated equally in this change unless some justification can be made as to why they should NOT be treated equally. If wizards are being exempt from making the "tough decision" then the other caster classes should be as well, otherwise some justification needs to be made for why.

You are the one supporting a change that treats one class differently from the others, and treats arcanes differently from divines by separating out positive spell power. SO, you should be the one making the justification for the change. Tell me, why do you think that wizards, and only wizards, should be exempt from this new decision? Why do you think that arcanes should be exempt from having to make an even tougher decision from divines?
You gave an example that had nothing to do with this game because it didnt apply. Any ways, it's moot now.

I never said anyone should be exempt from being challenged. I thought what I have said implied the opposite, but since I was not clear I will reinterate: all classes should have tough decisions when it comes to planning good builds. There should always been a trade-off when it comes to class balance and grouping balance. So we are saying the same thing, but I am disagreeing with your reasoning that sorcerers are somehow nerfed just because they need to spend more energy to get a skill that comes easier to another class-- the exact same thing can be said for all classes with a primary stat.
Also, the fact that we have classes means they are treated differently. Sorcerers and wizards are not the same class and should not be treated the same way just because they have spells.

Getting back to the point. The addition of Spellcraft and having Int as its governing stat is not a class balance issue. Classes and their enhancements are a class balancing issue.
Has anyone ever considered why not just add Spellcraft to the Half Elven Wizard Dilletante feat? Wizard and sorcerer dilletante do not even have any additional bonus like the rest of them, and that would solve some of the issues mentioned. If other classes can not have UMD as easily as sorcerers, but have the option of taking this racial ability, then sorcerers should have the exact same solution.

I'm also going to start a thread suggesting another possible solution, not directly related to Spellcraft, but to address the complaints about wizards having more spellpower in general.

Ayrleig
01-16-2018, 02:58 PM
Why not simply remove Spellcraft and have the +1% per level based off Arcane Lore that we get for free with each caster level?

Gives the small incremental power bump per level and doesn't involve wasting Skill points that INT based classes don't have the luxury of splashing about.

EDIT: Or make Spellcraft the casting device booster (+1 DC, +5% effectiveness) on devices that cast arcane spells if you really want to keep it.
May have been a very good idea, way back when...

Cordovan
01-17-2018, 04:19 PM
/necro