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Bzzzt
04-18-2013, 11:36 PM
Where is it? I looked all over but all I could find was +caster levels and +crit chance but not that lovelylovely crit damage enhancement. I will not be happy if sorcs can not longer zap things over 10k damage...

guardiankaiser
04-19-2013, 03:15 AM
Hmmm that didn't cross my mind there is no crit damage enhancements, meaning the greatest source is an item, unless its part of the crit line and isn't mentioned (which technically they don't even spell out that its 1.5x in those lines) how would new players know.

Tid12
04-19-2013, 05:18 AM
It's not there anymore hence the nerf. It's being discussed in the Official Sorcerer enhancement thread.

btolson
04-19-2013, 05:24 AM
Crit Damage is gone from enhancements, and gone from gear. Whether we end up nerfed remains to be seen (items not revamped yet).

nibel
04-19-2013, 05:55 AM
Crit damage is "kinda" gone. remember that the base spell crit was also raised from x1.5 to x2.

If it is gone from items, then it is a serious drawback. But since the base was raised, I don't worry about it being missed from enhancements. Everyone was investing only 7/1/1 anyway (for x1.75), unless required otherwise.

eris2323
07-02-2013, 04:39 PM
This is kind of the biggest change I've found too; surprised more aren't talking about this.

Not a single crit-damage enhancement for anyone?

So how will crits work? Base 50% crit damage, that's it?

Gonna hurt some sorcs if so.

Am I wrong? Is there something to compensate? Did the devs change their mind? Did they just forget, and it'll be there later?

Drakestor
07-02-2013, 04:42 PM
Yes, please, can we have word on if this is wai, or just forgotten? Thanks....

Vargouille
07-02-2013, 04:53 PM
So how will crits work? Base 50% crit damage, that's it?

Crit damage is "kinda" gone. remember that the base spell crit was also raised from x1.5 to x2.

Nibel is correct, base critical damage from spells has been increased from +50% to +100%, for all levels.

+5% Critical Chance is also included in the Magical Training feat (which most casters can get at level 1, and some other classes can gain from new Enhancements).

Wizza
07-02-2013, 05:03 PM
Nibel is correct, base critical damage from spells has been increased from +50% to +100%, for all levels.

+5% Critical Chance is also included in the Magical Training feat (which most casters can get at level 1, and some other classes can gain from new Enhancements).

Seriously? You aren't going to say that, yes the base critical damage has been increased, but it is gone from the Enhancement and from the items, nerfing overall all the Spellcasters and Sorcerers more than anyone else? Because, you know, Sorcerers are supposed to be the damage dealer of the Arcanes.

On live, with enhancement you can go up to 125% critical chance. On Lamannia, it will be just 100%.

And still no comment in the Sorcerers' thread?

Lame.

eris2323
07-02-2013, 05:27 PM
Nibel is correct, base critical damage from spells has been increased from +50% to +100%, for all levels.

+5% Critical Chance is also included in the Magical Training feat (which most casters can get at level 1, and some other classes can gain from new Enhancements).

Okay, so if I understand correctly:

We will receive a small nerf to crit damage (from 125 to 100)


But at the same time, this crit damage is to ALL lines? Elemental, Force, Healing, Neg? For Free? Without spending enhancements?

And we get a base 5% to all crit CHANCES for free as well?

It's not sounding TOO bad then.

I actually DID spend extra points in my cold tree, for instance, while being an air sorc. Me likey big numbers. So now, I will get all those for free, for every element.

(puts down pitchforks and torches)

pjw
07-02-2013, 06:47 PM
It's not sounding TOO bad then.

Except, combined with the Lore item changes, for a pretty normal build when you do the numbers the actual damage drops quite significantly (at least 10% depending on build):

On live:

Chance: 4(enh) + 12 (item) = 16% (could be more if you spend more or have ToD set)
Multiplier: 1.5 + 0.4 (enh) + 0.5 (item) = 2.5

This means that 16% of the time you will add an extra 150% damage.

So a total of 22% extra damage on live.

I chose these numbers based on my wizard who is a generalist and does not specialize in just one element.

On Lam:

Chance: 5 (base) + 2(enh) + 6 (item) = 12%
Multiplier = 2

This means that 12% of the time you will add an extra 100% damage.

So a total of 12% extra damage. 10% less than live.


It's just another badly designed nerf, imo. Changes that push us backwards so we can grind forwards again and really not very player-friendly, and are most certainly disheartening.

An example of a good nerf is the "wail" nerf: the spell was nerfed seriously but it added a new gameplay element and tactical choice.

Suggestion

Give casters a fixed 3x crit multiplier, not 2x. It would even be in keeping with the improved-crit ratios weapons get.

Why do casters get 10-ish percent crit chance, and only a 2x multiplier?

redspecter23
07-02-2013, 07:04 PM
Why do casters get 10-ish percent crit chance, and only a 2x multiplier?

I'm going to guess that the logic behind the change is to bring caster crits more in line with melee crits? I'm not for or against it. It's just a theory. If that's the case, then feats or enhancements that mimic melee crit enhancement abilities seem to be in order. If a barb can increase his crits while raging, perhaps something along those lines for sorcs as well. Draconic Fury maybe should add a +1 to spell crit multiplier as an added bonus. Adding in various other forms of crit increase like that is hopefully what the devs have in mind rather than just a complete nerf to crit damage. If it were possible to get small bursts of x4 or x5 crits, it might offset the loss of a crit multiplier during normal unbuffed questing.

Perhaps the devs would want to add higher crit multipliers, but at a maximum 10% chance (much like the 19-20 melee multiplier increases). A x2 multiplier 20% of the time with a x3 10% of the time? Just tossing theories out there.

eris2323
07-02-2013, 07:24 PM
Except, combined with the Lore item changes, for a pretty normal build when you do the numbers the actual damage drops quite significantly (at least 10% depending on build):

On live:

Chance: 4(enh) + 12 (item) = 16% (could be more if you spend more or have ToD set)
Multiplier: 1.5 + 0.4 (enh) + 0.5 (item) = 2.5

This means that 16% of the time you will add an extra 150% damage.

So a total of 22% extra damage on live.

I chose these numbers based on my wizard who is a generalist and does not specialize in just one element.

On Lam:

Chance: 5 (base) + 2(enh) + 6 (item) = 12%
Multiplier = 2

This means that 12% of the time you will add an extra 100% damage.

So a total of 12% extra damage. 10% less than live.


It's just another badly designed nerf, imo. Changes that push us backwards so we can grind forwards again and really not very player-friendly, and are most certainly disheartening.

An example of a good nerf is the "wail" nerf: the spell was nerfed seriously but it added a new gameplay element and tactical choice.

Suggestion

Give casters a fixed 3x crit multiplier, not 2x. It would even be in keeping with the improved-crit ratios weapons get.

Why do casters get 10-ish percent crit chance, and only a 2x multiplier?

While I would like sorcs to have the highest spell crits - I do have to enjoy the fact that I'll have more SLA's to use with free metas (according to last enhancement tests, my build went from 3 sla's to ummmmmm i believe 6, 3 sorc, 1 differentsorc, and 2 arti's.

There's good and theres bad with this new change - some of the new multiclass builds look simply amazing.

Just a couple more tweaks needed, is all... (also change pale master sla's to have free metas devs, c'mon now you're just being petty about us having wail for so long).

Wizza
07-03-2013, 04:03 AM
I'm going to guess that the logic behind the change is to bring caster crits more in line with melee crits? I'm not for or against it. It's just a theory. If that's the case, then feats or enhancements that mimic melee crit enhancement abilities seem to be in order. If a barb can increase his crits while raging, perhaps something along those lines for sorcs as well. Draconic Fury maybe should add a +1 to spell crit multiplier as an added bonus. Adding in various other forms of crit increase like that is hopefully what the devs have in mind rather than just a complete nerf to crit damage. If it were possible to get small bursts of x4 or x5 crits, it might offset the loss of a crit multiplier during normal unbuffed questing.

Perhaps the devs would want to add higher crit multipliers, but at a maximum 10% chance (much like the 19-20 melee multiplier increases). A x2 multiplier 20% of the time with a x3 10% of the time? Just tossing theories out there.

Sorry but this is wrong.

Melees are dominating since EDs came out. With Master's Blitz and FotW, they shouldn't nerf Sorcerers (and at a lesser degree casters in general), but instead they should buff all the other destinies (and at the same moment, they should decrease mobs saves) to bring them in line with melees 2-shotting everything with Blitz and UF.

chrisdinus7
07-03-2013, 09:45 AM
The changes don't put caster criticals to anywhere near melee crit levels. The new system is like grabbing a normal longsword (with the improved crit: slashing feat). No melee does that.

Casters now get 5% magical training + 8% enhancements + 6% lore item (the best I have seen so far, what my old sup lightning lore became). That is a 19% critical chance. Assuming the mental toughness feats actually give the 1% critical they claim to, you can blow 3 feats to get up to 22% of a x2 damage. A longsword is 19/2, 17/2 with crit: slashing feat. That is a 20% to deal double damage, the same as caster's get. Especially considering casters need an item to do it (which melee's could accomplish without the feat if they have the keen property).

An eSoS or Sireth (with monk / rogue enhancements) can get to a 35% chance to do triple damage. That is on the order of twice as good as caster criticals on live. And is on the order of 4 times better than caster criticals in the enhancement pass. Casters, particularly wizards and sorcerers, need numerous changes yet.

I do like, however, the new cleric tree and the druid casting tree. Even then though, their crits are also taking a major loss. But at least they get some interesting SLAs, new (to them) access to the meta-magic cost reducers, and a few other neat things.

Wizards and sorcerers simply have more limited and weaker translations of their existing enhancements from live.

redspecter23
07-03-2013, 10:33 AM
Sorry but this is wrong.

Melees are dominating since EDs came out. With Master's Blitz and FotW, they shouldn't nerf Sorcerers (and at a lesser degree casters in general), but instead they should buff all the other destinies (and at the same moment, they should decrease mobs saves) to bring them in line with melees 2-shotting everything with Blitz and UF.

I hope I didn't come across like I wanted a caster nerf. Not even close. I was just trying to get inside the devs minds regarding the change. It would be nice if they posted their own thoughts, but they choose not to and we as players first have to figure out their goals before we can see the whole picture.

Yes, I think blitz is powerful. Yes, I think it will get a nerf at some point whether I want it to or not. I think sorcs should still be able to see big numbers and if their crit chance effectively goes down, I don't see a problem in raising the multiplier for larger crits at a lower rate than we see currently.

While it may be possible that the devs want caster crits to be more in line with melee, it would be nice if they just came out and said what they wanted so we could all rage at once about what the real issue is, rather than have to guess and hope at each Lama build that we get some hint of what they want.

96th_Malice
07-16-2013, 12:21 PM
seriously? You aren't going to say that, yes the base critical damage has been increased, but it is gone from the enhancement and from the items, nerfing overall all the spellcasters and sorcerers more than anyone else? Because, you know, sorcerers are supposed to be the damage dealer of the arcanes.

On live, with enhancement you can go up to 125% critical chance. On lamannia, it will be just 100%.

And still no comment in the sorcerers' thread?

Lame.


take that pvp casters !!!

:)

350zguy
07-17-2013, 04:57 PM
They did comment in another place... that the critical gain on items was to be increased to ensure that the sorcs didn't take that 12% damage hit.

Meaning crit % will increase until the DPS is about equal to live.

unless that has changed too....